How are you suppose to kill a Demilich?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think the Epic Handbook is pretty infamous for being one, if not the most poorly designed books in all of 3.5. Between Epic feats varying wildly in power the absolute nightmare that is Epic Spellcasting, it's pretty bad.

But I think the monsters are a shining example of failed design too. They run the gambit from laughably weak to nigh unstoppable death machines. I want to talk about the latter, the Demilich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm).

How is one supposed to kill this monstrosity? Let's forget the fact that it's an epic spellcaster for a second and look at this:



Magic Immunity (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.

I have two main observations:

1. This is not like the Golem's magic immunity. It prevents Supernatural abilities from effecting it, which do not allow spell resistance in the first place.

2. Every single one of the spells that the Demilich is weak to can be blocked by Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm), or its greater cousin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunityGreater.htm).

What are you supposed to do? Melee it to death? It's an epic spellcaster! :smallfrown:

How are you supposed to kill this thing?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44180_C5_Demilich.jpg

[Calthropstu]

Timestop shenannigans. At epic level, you have access to all sorts of ways to destroy it. Turn the entire area into lava, wrap it in silence, disintigrate its spell pouch, force it to expend 9th lvl slots just to cast magic missle. Force it to make concentration checks it could possibly fail. Hit it with missile weapons with all the energy types. Research the spell "slay demilich."

Etc.

[EliDupree]

Well, when you put it like that…

…

A lich's phylactery is specifically called out as "a magic phylactery", so a demilich would arguably be immune to the phylactery's ability to bring it back to life. :-P And even closer to RAW, you could say it's immune to the effects of Phylactery Transference (Su). I guess those don't help very much with killing it the first time, though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Timestop shenannigans.

Spell Stowaway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellStowaway) with Time Stop selected isn't an uncommon defensive choice at epic.


At epic level, you have access to all sorts of ways to destroy it. Turn the entire area into lava,

Lava that it can easily teleport out of or be immune to?


wrap it in silence,

It's immune to magical silence.


disintigrate its spell pouch,

And if it takes Ignore Material Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents)? Or uses more than one spell pouch?



force it to expend 9th lvl slots just to cast magic missle.

How?


Force it to make concentration checks it could possibly fail.

Again, how do you plan to do this?


Hit it with missile weapons with all the energy types.

Which it may be immune to.


Research the spell "slay demilich."

It's immune to spells.


Etc.

This isn't even taking epic magic into account, BTW.

EDIT:


Well, when you put it like that…

…

A lich's phylactery is specifically called out as "a magic phylactery", so a demilich would arguably be immune to the phylactery's ability to bring it back to life. :-P And even closer to RAW, you could say it's immune to the effects of Phylactery Transference (Su). I guess those don't help very much with killing it the first time, though.

Yeah, but you still have to kill it in the first place.

EDIT 2: Also, not buying the argument that the Phylactery couldn't revive the Demilich.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The demilich is immune to Spell Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity; what you quoted says nothing about "but not immune to buffs or self-cast magical effects."

Both spells offer saving throws, which means the Demilich can suppress its immunity:



Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

The example given in the Player's Handbook is an Elf suppressing its immunity to sleep spells.

And if even if it can't cast Spell Immunity on itself, would it really help to use those spells on it?

[Calthropstu]

Spell Stowaway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellStowaway) with Time Stop selected isn't an uncommon defensive choice at epic.



Lava that it can easily teleport out of or be immune to?



It's immune to magical silence.



And if it takes Ignore Material Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents)? Or uses more than one spell pouch?




How?



Again, how do you plan to do this?



Which it may be immune to.



It's immune to spells.



This isn't even taking epic magic into account, BTW.

EDIT:



Yeah, but you still have to kill it in the first place.

It's immune to spells unless the spell specifically states it isn't. The monster entry specifically mentions 3 spells that affect it. Using those as a research basis, it should be simple enough to figure out why it's not immune to those spells and make a new one that will more greatly affect it.

As for "how", force it to use metamagic feats. It already has to use still spell, meaning it is already restricted to 8th level spells or spells without somatic components. With silent spell added, it's down to 7th. Force eschew materials as well and we're rapidly forcing some nasty feat taxes.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's immune to spells unless the spell specifically states it isn't. The monster entry specifically mentions 3 spells that affect it. Using those as a research basis, it should be simple enough to figure out why it's not immune to those spells and make a new one that will more greatly affect it.

That does not follow. It has blanket immunity to all spells, save for the ones listed as exceptions.

EDIT: Also, spell research is so vaguely defined to the point of uselessness.

EDIT 2: Note that the Demilich can cast Antimagic Field on itself without being affected by it. That shuts down the possibility of all spells.


As for "how", force it to use metamagic feats. It already has to use still spell, meaning it is already restricted to 8th level spells or spells without somatic components.

...


Perfect Automatic Still Spell (Ex)
A demilich can cast all the spells it knows without gestures.




With silent spell added, it's down to 7th.

Nothing in the statblock implies that the Demilich can't talk. Just the opposite, in fact:



Demiliches speak the languages they knew as liches and as living creatures.




Force eschew materials as well and we're rapidly forcing some nasty feat taxes.


Eschew Materials is a prerequisite for Ignore Materials, which is gamebreakingly good.

[Calthropstu]

That does not follow. It has blanket immunity to all spells, save for the ones listed as exceptions.

EDIT: Also, spell research is so vaguely defined to the point of uselessness.

EDIT 2: Note that the Demilich can cast Antimagic Field on itself without being affected by it. That shuts down the possibility of all spells.



...






Nothing in the statblock implies that the Demilich can't talk. Just the opposite, in fact:








Eschew Materials is a prerequisite for Ignore Materials, which is gamebreakingly good.

Engulfing it in lava makes anything unable to speak. So, since it doesn't HAVE silent spell, engulfing it in lava kills it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Engulfing it in lava makes anything unable to speak. So, since it doesn't HAVE silent spell, engulfing it in lava kills it.

How does the lava kill it exactly? It could easily be immune to fire. It can also fly, so can't it just move out of the lava? Especially if it has Freedom Of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm)?





With that said, I think I found a way to kill the Demilich. Be a god and use the Divine Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineSplendor) ability. The Demilich can still use Hide Life to keep itself from dying, but honestly, that's so TO I doubt it's worth considering for this scenario.

[zfs]

If your DM takes the more permissive reading of Reserves of Strength, use whatever castle level raising shenanigans you have at hand to increase Shatter to enough that you'll kill it after factoring in half damage. It has a crummy Fort Save, low HP and only 20 Sonic resistance.

You could also just research an Epic uncapped version of Shatter, though a DM might rule that since the magic immunity only calls out Shatter specifically, that an epic version gets blocked.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If your DM takes the more permissive reading of Reserves of Strength, use whatever castle level raising shenanigans you have at hand to increase Shatter to enough that you'll kill it after factoring in half damage. It has a crummy Fort Save, low HP and only 20 Sonic resistance.

If the Demilich doesn't cast Spell Immunity or AMF, that could work.

EDIT: And it's not immune to sonic damage.


You could also just research an Epic uncapped version of Shatter, though a DM might rule that since the magic immunity only calls out Shatter specifically, that an epic version gets blocked.

Honestly, I think using Reserves of Strength is a better idea.

[Calthropstu]

How does the lava kill it exactly? It could easily be immune to fire. It can also fly, so can't it just move out of the lava? Especially if it has Freedom Of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm)?





With that said, I think I found a way to kill the Demilich. Be a god and use the Divine Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineSplendor) ability. The Demilich can still use Hide Life to keep itself from dying, but honestly, that's so TO I doubt it's worth considering for this scenario.

It's in a room. Time stop loop giving yourself enough time to move the lava. Sure, maybe it has a spell to make it immune to lava. It's still in a room full of lava. Lock the door, it can't get out. It has no hands to manipulate the lock, no ability to cast spells because it can't talk, eventually the spell protecting it from fire will wear off and it will die. If it doesn't run out before the lava cools, it's encased in stone, still can't talk and is stuck forever.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's in a room.

What if it isn't?


Time stop loop giving yourself enough time to move the lava.

1. What if it's immune to Time Stop via Spell Stowaway .

2. Where are you getting the lava from?


Sure, maybe it has a spell to make it immune to lava. It's still in a room full of lava. Lock the door, it can't get out. It has no hands to manipulate the lock, no ability to cast spells because it can't talk, eventually the spell protecting it from fire will wear off and it will die. If it doesn't run out before the lava cools, it's encased in stone, still can't talk and is stuck forever.

In addition to the above problems, this assumes that the Demilich doesn't have minions that will assist it or Craft Contingencies to allow it to escape.

EDIT: It has Summon Monster and Telekinesis as SLAs, which do not have verbal components.

[Calthropstu]

What if it isn't?



1. What if it's immune to Time Stop via Stowaway Spell.

2. Where are you getting the lava from?



In addition to the above problems, this assumes that the Demilich doesn't have minions that will assist it or Craft Contingencies to allow it to escape.

*checks the entry.* Nope. I don't see spell stowaway.

Edit: minions are a separate matter. Presumably, you have already destroyed its minions when you go after it. Generally, when attacking someone powerful, the first thing you do is weaken his power base. The exercise isn't "kill a "I'm giving a demilich all possible abilities that it could theoretically have." it's kill A demilich. Presumably, it's "Kill the default demilich listed in the book." If we want to superoptimize, no you cannot kill something with "ALL ABILITIES EVER LOL"

Each demilich will require different tactics based on their build.

[EliDupree]

1. What if it's immune to Time Stop via Spell Stowaway .

Then cast Time Stop when it doesn't have line of effect to you.

[ColorBlindNinja]

*checks the entry.* Nope. I don't see spell stowaway.

It's a template, nothing's stopping it from taking the feat.

It could also have cast Temporal Repair, which would keep Time Stop from working.

EDIT:


Then cast Time Stop when it doesn't have line of effect to you.

Still doesn't help VS Contingency. Or minions.

EDIT 2: Or VS Temporal Repair, for that matter.

[tyckspoon]

What are you supposed to do? Melee it to death? It's an epic spellcaster! :smallfrown:


This is actually the correct answer. Have your casters do what is necessary to bring down the Demilich's magical defenses (the creature being immune to magic does not mean its spells are! You can still Dispel/Disjoin it, and I would consider this an absolutely necessary first step) and deliver your big dumb fighter into striking range, whereupon the BDF smashes it with a big magic hammer. Ideally you want to go figure out where the thing stores its phylactery and loot its magic items before you engage with the creature itself, both so that you can prevent it from coming back and so you can weaken it by stripping its gear before you fight.

[ColorBlindNinja]

This is actually the correct answer. Have your casters do what is necessary to bring down the Demilich's magical defenses (the creature being immune to magic does not mean its spells are! You can still Dispel/Disjoin it, and I would consider this an absolutely necessary first step)

No, if it's immune to magic, you can't dispel or disjoin it. Otherwise, you can affect it via magic. Plus, it can still cast AMF and ruin your day.


and deliver your big dumb fighter into striking range, whereupon the BDF smashes it with a big magic hammer.

Good luck with that if the Demilich is flying over your head, surrounded by an AMF.


Ideally you want to go figure out where the thing stores its phylactery and loot its magic items before you engage with the creature itself, both so that you can prevent it from coming back and so you can weaken it by stripping its gear before you fight.


This is already difficult with a standard Lich, but the Demilich makes this even harder to accomplish:



Demiliches also have eight soul gems, each of which acts like a phylactery in its own right. If all the soul gems, as well as the demilich’s phylactery, are not destroyed after a demilich is downed, the demilich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

EDIT: For more LOLZ, there's an epic spell called Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery from Champions of Ruin. It lets you get even more Phylacteries.

[zfs]

Tyckspoon beat me to it, but yes, the easiest way to kill it is just HP damage. For any melee attacker anywhere near epic levels, beating a 51 AC and dealing 154+ damage is child's play. The problem becomes, "how do we get the hyper intelligent 21st level wizard with 180 ft perfect fly speed to open itself up for our melee brute to smash it to pieces with one hit?" And that is indeed a problem - one that make the Demilich a challenge worthy of an epic party.

Of course it could have all the PO/TO shenanigans that would make it basically immune to HP damage. But a DM is supposed to run it intelligently, not optimized to the max so it's unbeatable. A smart Demilich being played intelligently should be tough to make vulnerable to a direct assault, but it should be possible for a smart party to do so.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Tyckspoon beat me to it, but yes, the easiest way to kill it is just HP damage. For any melee attacker anywhere near epic levels, beating a 51 AC and dealing 154+ damage is child's play. The problem becomes, "how do we get the hyper intelligent 21st level wizard with 180 ft perfect fly speed to open itself up for our melee brute to smash it to pieces with one hit?" And that is indeed a problem - one that make the Demilich a challenge worthy of an epic party.

I'm quickly reaching the conclusion that the answer is, "You can't.", if the Demilich plays intelligently at all.


Of course it could have all the PO/TO shenanigans that would make it basically immune to HP damage. But a DM is supposed to run it intelligently, not optimized to the max so it's unbeatable.

All it has to do is cast AMF and then Ironguard and it's nigh invulnerable. That's two spells.


A smart Demilich being played intelligently should be tough to make vulnerable to a direct assault, but it should be possible for a smart party to do so.

When you start hitting high enough levels, that ceases to be the case for spellcasters.

We still have barely considered the Demilich's access to epic magic in this exercise.

[zfs]

We still have barely considered the Demilich's access to epic magic in this exercise.

It doesn't have epic magic out of the box. It would need to take the feat. And then the problem isn't the Demilich, it's epic spellcasting, which is well known to be either be nearly useless (no mitigating factors) or beyond broken (mitigation abuse).

[Calthropstu]

I'm quickly reaching the conclusion that the answer is, "You can't.", if the Demilich plays intelligently at all.



All it has to do is cast AMF and then Ironguard and it's nigh invulnerable. That's two spells.



When you start hitting high enough levels, that ceases to be the case for spellcasters.

We still have barely considered the Demilich's access to epic magic in this exercise.

If it has access to "LOL all the feats all the abilities and all the spells ever made and ever written and all the epic ones too..." no.

Give me a build, I'll find a way to kill it. I've already killed the sample one on the srd: Time stop loop, put lava in a fire proof bag of holding, dump the lava into the room, get more lava wash rinse repeat. Lock the room, reinforce the walls with walls of force and presto. Instant cooked demilich.

If you want to give it stuff that ISN'T in the SRD listing, give me a build that isn't bonkers, and I'll give some legitimate tactics that will kill it or render it nonfunctional.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It doesn't have epic magic out of the box. It would need to take the feat.

Since it's a template, it's likely it'd get different feats from its default statblock.


And then the problem isn't the Demilich, it's epic spellcasting, which is well known to be either be nearly useless (no mitigating factors) or beyond broken (mitigation abuse).

Fair enough, but the Demilich is still a monster with access to epic spellcasting. If we're talking about killing it, we would be remiss to overlook that.

[zfs]

If it has access to "LOL all the feats all the abilities and all the spells ever made and ever written and all the epic ones too..." no.

Give me a build, I'll find a way to kill it.

Basically this. I'm not a great optimizer, but I have no doubt that the Playground can easily kill any given Demilich loadout, outside of NI loops or chain-gating solars to mitigate an epic spell that just kills the entire world, no save, no SR. The challenge for them won't be "can we kill it," it becomes "what's the lowest level we can kill it."

[ColorBlindNinja]

If it has access to "LOL all the feats all the abilities and all the spells ever made and ever written and all the epic ones too..." no.

Except one can easily build a caster that can do that.


Give me a build, I'll find a way to kill it. I've already killed the sample one on the srd: Time stop loop, put lava in a fire proof bag of holding, dump the lava into the room, get more lava wash rinse repeat. Lock the room, reinforce the walls with walls of force and presto. Instant cooked demilich.

I've already gone over the numerous holes in this plan. It doesn't work, even with the sample Demilich.

EDIT: Temporal Repair beats the entire thing.


If you want to give it stuff that ISN'T in the SRD listing, give me a build that isn't bonkers, and I'll give some legitimate tactics that will kill it or render it nonfunctional.

I can trivially make a Demilich that's nigh impossible to kill. I could do the same with a level 20 spellcaster, it's even easier with an epic one.

[Segev]

Time stop doesn't allow a saving throw. Even with Spell Stowaway, the demilich's immunity keeps it from being affected.

A gate to the positive energy plane would still open up and pour purely natural positive energy out of it; point one at the demilich. Or open one and chuck the demilich through. If it is immune to being gated, steal its phylactery and other valuable stuff and run through a gate or phase wall or something to entice it to follow you.

Make a unique, custom phase wall that destroys undead which pass through it, and offers a save. The demilich must suppress its spell immunity to follow you, and in so doing voluntarily fails its save, as well, and is destroyed.

Put yourself in an AMF and ride a flying mount that doesn't use magic to fly. The demilich is immune to the AMF, but its spells and spell effects aren't. I'll assume its flight is innate magic and part of it enough to get the spell immunity. Other magics it casts on itself are not. It's soul-sucking power is also magic, and can't work on anything in an AMF, nor through one.

Heck, dimension lock on the area it's in will prevent it from using magic to teleport, plane shift, or otherwise leave the area without simply physically moving the distance, because it doesn't target the lich but rather prevents the magic. Though dimension lock is a bit weird anyway because I think it allows a save, so maybe it still lets the immunity stand. AMF doesn't have that problem, though, so trap the demilich in one with you, and he still can't cast magic because while HE is immune to it, his spells aren't.

Use Spell Stowaway for teleport and similar magics, yourself, to follow the demilich as it tries to flee you while you beat it to death.

[Lapak]

All it has to do is cast AMF and then Ironguard and it's nigh invulnerable. That's two spells.
One of the cases where you need to go lower-op, then. A Greatclub-wielding Power Attacking Barbarian could bypass that, plow through its DR and do 150+ damage, no problem, if the party is clever enough to get him in position to do so. An optimized charger could probably punch it to death with enough multipliers stacked up. I agree that getting that attack off is the trick, but it should be theoretically possible.

The phylacteries shouldn't be an issue for any party that can manage to down it in the first place, especially since all the Soul Gems are built into the form they just smashed and it's really only the final one that's a problem.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Time stop doesn't allow a saving throw. Even with Spell Stowaway, the demilich's immunity keeps it from being affected.

One could argue that since Time Stop is a personal spell, it's not "affecting" the Demilich at all.

EDIT: It speeds the caster up, it doesn't slow the Demilich down.


A gate to the positive energy plane would still open up and pour purely natural positive energy out of it; point one at the demilich. Or open one and chuck the demilich through. If it is immune to being gated, steal its phylactery and other valuable stuff and run through a gate or phase wall or something to entice it to follow you.

It would be immune to Gate. I must ask how you plan to steal its Phylactery and why you don't think a minion would retrive it instead of the Demilich itself.


Make a unique, custom phase wall that destroys undead which pass through it, and offers a save. The demilich must suppress its spell immunity to follow you, and in so doing voluntarily fails its save, as well, and is destroyed.

Even assuming you could make a such a spell, why wouldn't it send a minion after you instead?


Put yourself in an AMF and ride a flying mount that doesn't use magic to fly. The demilich is immune to the AMF, but its spells and spell effects aren't.

Yes they are, otherwise the spell is affecting it.


I'll assume its flight is innate magic and part of it enough to get the spell immunity. Other magics it casts on itself are not. It's soul-sucking power is also magic, and can't work on anything in an AMF, nor through one.

Since it's immune to magic, it's immune to AMF.


Heck, dimension lock on the area it's in will prevent it from using magic to teleport, plane shift, or otherwise leave the area without simply physically moving the distance, because it doesn't target the lich but rather prevents the magic.

No, that would count as affecting the Lich as well and will not work.


Use Spell Stowaway for teleport and similar magics, yourself, to follow the demilich as it tries to flee you while you beat it to death.

That is a good idea.


One of the cases where you need to go lower-op, then. A Greatclub-wielding Power Attacking Barbarian could bypass that, plow through its DR and do 150+ damage, no problem, if the party is clever enough to get him in position to do so. An optimized charger could probably punch it to death with enough multipliers stacked up.

With Contingency and flight, that might prove to be nigh impossible.


I agree that getting that attack off is the trick, but it should be theoretically possible.

Should be being the key word here.


The phylacteries shouldn't be an issue for any party that can manage to down it in the first place, especially since all the Soul Gems are built into the form they just smashed and it's really only the final one that's a problem.

It's Phylactery is separate from its Soul Gems, you still need to find it in 1d10 days.

[Segev]

One could argue that since Time Stop is a personal spell, it's not "affecting" the Demilich at all.

EDIT: It speeds the caster up, it doesn't slow the Demilich down.The Spell Stowaway effect would cause it to affect the demilich. But its immunity would prevent that. My sole point here is that the spell immunity gets in the way of it being able to ignore your time stop. I don't know what temporal repair actually does, so I don't know how that one "works" for it.


It would be immune to Gate. I must ask how you plan to steal its Phylactery and why you don't think a minion would retrive it instead of the Demilich itself.I'm an epic level member of an epic level party, and its phylactery isn't immune to spells and magic the way the demilich is. I'm sure a way will be found, but specifics do require specifics, since any heist is highly environment-dependent. You can't white room this.

As for minions, it's already been established that you eliminate those, first. They, too, are not as invincible as the demilich.


Even assuming you could make a such a spell, why wouldn't it send a minion after you instead?You've already eliminated them. You're an epic-level party, after all.


Yes they are, otherwise the spell is affecting it.Ehn. This is where things get very iffy. Is it immune to the extra attacks the party fighter gets from having haste cast on him? After all, that's a magic spell that has an effect on the demilich, now. Would it be immune to falling rocks that came through a gate, but not falling rocks that just happened to collapse from the ceiling? What if the ceiling collapse was caused by an earthquake spell? Or by a Mattock of the Titans? Or by somebody who wouldn't have been strong enough to cause the collapse without bull's strength cast on them?

My point here isn't to say "nah, the demilich's spells are definitely blocked by AMF," but merely to point out that this is a huge, huge area of "DM has to decide," which makes, again, white-room discussion of it hard to do coherently.


Since it's immune to magic, it's immune to AMF.It is. It's spells? Questionable. DM call.


No, that would count as affecting the Lich as well and will not work.So would hitting it with an attack granted by haste. DM call, again, though here I'd be surprised if a DM said the demilich was immune to the extra attack.


That is a good idea.Thank you.

[Lapak]

Yes they are, otherwise the spell is affecting it.While I agree with you in a lot of ways, here I have to call you mistaken. Being immune to a spell does not make everything related to you in any way immune. I might go as far as 'spells that target itself are unaffected', but a demilich would not, for example, be able to target someone standing in an AMF with Disintigrate. That's changing how things affect the world at large, not how they affect the DL.
With Contingency and flight, that might prove to be nigh impossible.

Should be being the key word here.Non-magic flight is well within reach for charge builds in a variety of ways, from playing a race with wings to a mount with non-magical flight to having your a Hulking Hurler throw you at the lich. I guess a Hurler might just skip the middle-man.

Contingencies are very, very powerful but they do have limits. A mundane attack is probably relatively low on the list of things a DL is usually worried about, and depending on what the Contingency actually does a sufficiently prepared party might be able to either bypass it or repeat-until-successful after the Contingency discharges. This is again where actual builds come into play (and table reading of acceptable Contingencies!); what bases the monster actually covers - and how - matters in this instance.

It's Phylactery is separate from its Soul Gems, you still need to find it in 1d10 days.
A party capable of taking out the lich in the first place should absolutely have the resources to track down a phylactery. If they get unlucky and roll a 1, it's dicier because they can't recharge the resources they spent knocking the bad guy out, but it is very doable.

[liquidformat]

So first thing that confuses me how is it turning off its magic immunity to buff itself? Also the second if it turns its magic immunity back on wouldn't that cancel out said buffs? I don't think it can have it both ways, it is either immune to magic and can't have any active buffs or it isn't. So I am not buying your claim it can turn off its immunity cast spell immunity on itself then turn it back on.

Second I have a character that can take this thing out one hit with very little effort, he is a goliath with a template for wings and his classes are hulking hurler and warhulk. You just cast AMF around the demilich and the hulking thrower has a number of ways to kill it, throw a mountain at it, melee one hit it, or grapple it to death. Easy peasy...

[Segev]

So first thing that confuses me how is it turning off its magic immunity to buff itself? Also the second if it turns its magic immunity back on wouldn't that cancel out said buffs? I don't think it can have it both ways, it is either immune to magic and can't have any active buffs or it isn't. So I am not buying your claim it can turn off its immunity cast spell immunity on itself then turn it back on.

Second I have a character that can take this thing out one hit with very little effort, he is a goliath with a template for wings and his classes are hulking hurler and warhulk. You just cast AMF around the demilich and the hulking thrower has a number of ways to kill it, throw a mountain at it, melee one hit it, or grapple it to death. Easy peasy...

Any buff which allows a save also allows a target to voluntarily fail the save and, if the target has any special immunities to the spell, lower those immunities. But it must allow a save.

Immunity-lowering is, I believe, per-spell, not blanket, which slows down buffing considerably because it takes a standard action to lower the immunity to each effect each time it's cast. However, once lowered, the spell effect stays in place for the spell effect duration; it can't be brought back up for that casting of the spell.

So the demilich can buff itself with anything that allows a save.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The Spell Stowaway effect would cause it to affect the demilich. But its immunity would prevent that. My sole point here is that the spell immunity gets in the way of it being able to ignore your time stop. I don't know what temporal repair actually does, so I don't know how that one "works" for it.

Temporal Repair shuts down time related spells. For higher level spells, like Time Stop, allow an opposed caster level to see if it gets dispeled.


I'm an epic level member of an epic level party, and its phylactery isn't immune to spells and magic the way the demilich is. I'm sure a way will be found, but specifics do require specifics, since any heist is highly environment-dependent. You can't white room this.

The Demilich stuck his Phylactery on a moon on the other side of the universe, it's under a trap that generates an AMF. How are you going to find it?


As for minions, it's already been established that you eliminate those, first. They, too, are not as invincible as the demilich.


Are they? They could be.


You've already eliminated them. You're an epic-level party, after all.

How? What if the minions stay on the Demilich's demiplane until needed?


Ehn. This is where things get very iffy. Is it immune to the extra attacks the party fighter gets from having haste cast on him? After all, that's a magic spell that has an effect on the demilich, now.

No, that spell is granting the Fighter a benefit, not affecting the Demilich.


Would it be immune to falling rocks that came through a gate, but not falling rocks that just happened to collapse from the ceiling? What if the ceiling collapse was caused by an earthquake spell? Or by a Mattock of the Titans? Or by somebody who wouldn't have been strong enough to cause the collapse without bull's strength cast on them?

None of those are direct effects of the spells. Dispel and AMF are.


My point here isn't to say "nah, the demilich's spells are definitely blocked by AMF," but merely to point out that this is a huge, huge area of "DM has to decide," which makes, again, white-room discussion of it hard to do coherently.

It really isn't.


It is. It's spells? Questionable. DM call.




Magic Immunity (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows...

(Emphasis mine.)

Antimagic Field's suppression of spell casting is clearly an effect generated by a spell. The Demilich would thus be immune.


So would hitting it with an attack granted by haste. DM call, again, though here I'd be surprised if a DM said the demilich was immune to the extra attack.

Again, that would not be the case because Haste's extra attack is an effect granted to the Fighter. The Fighter gets an extra attack, while the Demilich is not directly affected.


Thank you.

You're welcome, Spell Stowaway is one of the few epic feats worth taking.

EDIT:


Immunity-lowering is, I believe, per-spell, not blanket, which slows down buffing considerably because it takes a standard action to lower the immunity to each effect each time it's cast.

I think that only applies to lowering spell resistance, not voluntarily giving up your saving throw.




While I agree with you in a lot of ways, here I have to call you mistaken. Being immune to a spell does not make everything related to you in any way immune.

The AMF preventing the Demilich from casting spells is clearly a direct affect of a spell, which it is immune to.


I might go as far as 'spells that target itself are unaffected', but a demilich would not, for example, be able to target someone standing in an AMF with Disintigrate. That's changing how things affect the world at large, not how they affect the DL.

That I would be inclined to agree with since that's more the a property of the Disintegrate spell than the Demilich being directly affected.


Non-magic flight is well within reach for charge builds in a variety of ways, from playing a race with wings to a mount with non-magical flight to having your a Hulking Hurler throw you at the lich. I guess a Hurler might just skip the middle-man.

That still doesn't bypass Contingency.


Contingencies are very, very powerful but they do have limits. A mundane attack is probably relatively low on the list of things a DL is usually worried about, and depending on what the Contingency actually does a sufficiently prepared party might be able to either bypass it or repeat-until-successful after the Contingency discharges. This is again where actual builds come into play (and table reading of acceptable Contingencies!); what bases the monster actually covers - and how - matters in this instance.

Note that Craft Contingent Spell allows you to have one Contingency per HD.


A party capable of taking out the lich in the first place should absolutely have the resources to track down a phylactery. If they get unlucky and roll a 1, it's dicier because they can't recharge the resources they spent knocking the bad guy out, but it is very doable.

Okay, the Demilich stuck his Phylactery on a moon on the other side of the universe, it's under a trap that generates an AMF. How are you going to find it?

[Calthropstu]

There is a prestige class that allows you to handle a sphere of annihilation without being destroyed. It also affects your equipment.

Attach a sphere to the end of a chain. Smack the demilich.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There is a prestige class that allows you to handle a sphere of annihilation without being destroyed. It also affects your equipment.

Attach a sphere to the end of a chain. Smack the demilich.

Wouldn't it destroy the chain?

It also doesn't work VS Contingency.

[Calthropstu]

Wouldn't it destroy the chain?

It also doesn't work VS Contingency.

The chain is part of your equipmentm

A properly prepared epic party probably already knows those contingencies and is prepared to disable them. Disjunction obliterates contingent spells (and no, disjunction targets spells, not the dl itself. He isn't immune to having his spells dispelled)
So kiss those contingencies goodbye. And since we're likely linked to ITS teleports, we just keep swinging until it's gone.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The chain is part of your equipmentm

It's touching a Sphere of Annihilation.


A properly prepared epic party probably already knows those contingencies and is prepared to disable them. Disjunction obliterates contingent spells (and no, disjunction targets spells, not the dl itself. He isn't immune to having his spells dispelled)

No, the Demilich is immune to dispels, as that is being affected by spells.

And there are other ways of stopping Disjunction as well.


So kiss those contingencies goodbye. And since we're likely linked to ITS teleports, we just keep swinging until it's gone.

It's likely that one of those Contingencies will activate before you have a chance to even try to remove them.

[zfs]

There is a prestige class that allows you to handle a sphere of annihilation without being destroyed. It also affects your equipment.

Attach a sphere to the end of a chain. Smack the demilich.

Heck, an epic level binder can just summon a sphere of annihilation right on top of it.

[Calthropstu]

It's touching a Sphere of Annihilation.


Yes. And it's part of your equipment. Since you and your equipment are immune to the sphere...

As for the rest, IT isn't affected by the dispel. Its magic is.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Heck, an epic level binder can just summon a sphere of annihilation right on top of it.

Do you have a link to that particular ability?

EDIT:


Yes. And it's part of your equipment. Since you and your equipment are immune to the sphere...

Say what? :smallconfused:



Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed.




As for the rest, IT isn't affected by the dispel. Its magic is.

Semantic nonsense, if the Demilich is having its magic dispelled, it's being effected by a spell.

[zfs]

Do you have a link to that particular ability?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9589080&postcount=6

It's an ability granted by Tkhaaluuljin - of course since you're supposed to be Level 27 to access it, you're getting pretty close to hitting the standard Demilich's CR 29.




Say what? :smallconfused:

The class being referred to is Entropomancer. I think it's sort of up to the DM what would happen to a chain you were holding. The ability says you're immune to the effects of the sphere, and that it passes through your space harmlessly. So that should protect any equipment you're wearing or holding. But if it's a long enough chain, I could see a DM ruling that only the part within your square is guarded.

[ColorBlindNinja]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9589080&postcount=6

It's an ability granted by Tkhaaluuljin - of course since you're supposed to be Level 27 to access it, you're getting pretty close to hitting the standard Demilich's CR 29.

Thanks, I'll take a look.


The class being referred to is Entropomancer. I think it's sort of up to the DM what would happen to a chain you were holding. The ability says you're immune to the effects of the sphere, and that it passes through your space harmlessly. So that should protect any equipment you're wearing or holding. But if it's a long enough chain, I could see a DM ruling that only the part within your square is guarded.

What book is it from?

EDIT: Complete Divine?

[Dusk Raven]

None of those are direct effects of the spells. Dispel and AMF are.


Semantic nonsense, if the Demilich is having its magic dispelled, it's being effected by a spell.

As others have said, by that logic it's being affected by a haste spell cast on a hostile fighter. I think you're using an overly broad definition of "can't be affected by magic" to essentially mean, "The Demilich ignores any effect it doesn't like."

The thing about an AMF is that it doesn't directly affect creatures unless they are summoned creatures. It affects magic, and any supernatural abilities, SLAs, and spells simply do not work in it, with very few exceptions. The fact that the Demilich has magic immunity is irrelevant, the AMF doesn't take effect on creatures anyway. Should it try and use any spells however, the spells will not function because its spells are not themselves Demilichs and thus do not have this magic immunity, and the Demilich's ability does not state that its own magic can't be affected by others' magic.

Basically, AMF is an indirect effect. The direct effect is on the spells themselves.

Related, if a Demilich put an AMF over its phylactery to avoid detection, than it would also not be able to benefit from any magic items via Phylactery Transference (though one could argue whether that effect emanates from the phylactery or the demilich itself).

[ColorBlindNinja]

As others have said, by that logic it's being affected by a haste spell cast on a hostile fighter. I think you're using an overly broad definition of "can't be affected by magic" to essentially mean, "The Demilich ignores any effect it doesn't like."

The thing about an AMF is that it doesn't directly affect creatures unless they are summoned creatures. It affects magic, and any supernatural abilities, SLAs, and spells simply do not work in it, with very few exceptions. The fact that the Demilich has magic immunity is irrelevant, the AMF doesn't take effect on creatures anyway. Should it try and use any spells however, the spells will not function because its spells are not themselves Demilichs and thus do not have this magic immunity, and the Demilich's ability does not state that its own magic can't be affected by others' magic.

Basically, AMF is an indirect effect. The direct effect is on the spells themselves.

No, it is stopping a spellcaster from using their spells. That is a direct result of the spell.

This idea that it isn't relies on tortured semantics.


Related, if a Demilich put an AMF over its phylactery to avoid detection, than it would also not be able to benefit from any magic items via Phylactery Transference (though one could argue whether that effect emanates from the phylactery or the demilich itself).

By pure RAW, Phylactery Transference may not work at all since the Demlich is immune to supernatural effects.

[Calthropstu]

No, it is stopping a spellcaster from using their spells. That is a direct result of the spell.

This idea that it isn't relies on tortured semantics.



By pure RAW, Phylactery Transference may not work at all since the Demlich is immune to supernatural effects.

...

Which means its immune to its own supernatural flight. Wow... the more we take this thing apart, the less worrying it becomes. It's a skull that can't move, can't access its spellbook, can't use its own abilities, and pretty much just sits there useless.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Which means its immune to its own supernatural flight.

:smallsigh:



Speed
Change to fly 180 ft. (perfect). The lich’s supernatural fly speed, if any, is also retained.

It's ability to fly is not supernatural, as far as I can tell.



Wow... the more we take this thing apart, the less worrying it becomes. It's a skull that can't move, can't access its spellbook, can't use its own abilities, and pretty much just sits there useless.

Are you quite finished with your strawman?

It can move and it can cast spells.

EDIT: And it can use its own abilities, since with one or two exceptions, they don't affect itself. And that can be chalked up to bad writing.

[Dusk Raven]

No, it is stopping a spellcaster from using their spells. That is a direct result of the spell.

This idea that it isn't relies on tortured semantics.

I'm just using the game's own terminology. The idea that the Demilich can simply ignore an AMF relies on a specific interpretation of the word "affect," which is not used elsewhere. Again, you're using it to mean "ignore any magic in the combat that the Demilich doesn't like." Yeah, not being able to use spells is a "direct result" of being in an antimagic field, but that's a result of the antimagic field affecting the spells, not the Demilich directly. Magic immunity doesn't protect against that any more than it protects against rocks flung by telekinesis or through a gate spell. To be honest, it sounds similar to saying, "this creature is immune to slashing damage, therefore its weapon is too."

The Demilich may be "affected" in a sense by the AMF but that's just semantics - the AMF itself only takes direct effect on a demilich's spells and the like. The rest is just what happens when a mage's spells can't take effect. If you want to contradict that, find me a creature that explicitly ignores AMFs and tell me how that's worded.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm just using the game's own terminology. The idea that the Demilich can simply ignore an AMF relies on a specific interpretation of the word "affect," which is not used elsewhere. Again, you're using it to mean "ignore any magic in the combat that the Demilich doesn't like." Yeah, not being able to use spells is a "direct result" of being in an antimagic field, but that's a result of the antimagic field affecting the spells, not the Demilich directly.

Again, I don't buy this argument. If the AMF is stopping the Demilich from casting magic, it is affecting it. It is immune to spells.

EDIT: And no, that is not how I'm using it. I'm using it as, "Magic does not affect the Demilich unless is suppresses its immunity to it.


Magic immunity doesn't protect against that any more than it protects against rocks flung by telekinesis or through a gate spell.

Those are indirect effects.


The Demilich may be "affected" in a sense by the AMF but that's just semantics - the AMF itself only takes direct effect on a demilich's spells and the like.

If it's affecting the Demilich's spells, it's affecting the Demilich itself. The Demilich is immune to spells, they do not affect it at all.



The rest is just what happens when a mage's spells can't take effect. If you want to contradict that, find me a creature that explicitly ignores AMFs and tell me how that's worded.

As far as I know, the only creatures that are immune to AMFs are creatures with the same magic immunity as the Demilich.

[zlefin]

seems tough, but beatable. the problem here mostly seems to lie in a schrodinger's wizard scenario plus some highly debatable rulings on how its magic immunity works. it's a pretty impressive form of magic immunity ofc.

[EliDupree]

Again, I don't buy this argument. If the AMF is stopping the Demilich from casting magic, it is affecting it. It is immune to spells.

Thing is, the antimagic field ISN'T stopping the demilich from casting spells. If Antimagic Field said "creatures cannot cast spells inside an antimagic field," I would see the argument. But what it says is "an antimagic field suppresses any spell [...] used within [...] the area, but does not dispel it." So I don't see anything preventing anyone from CASTING spells inside the field – they can cast all the spells they want, it's just that those spells will be suppressed for the entire time they try to do anything.

EDIT: Oh and it also, separately, "prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines", which once again implies that spells can exist within its confines, they just don't function.

[ColorBlindNinja]

As far as I know, neither the words immunity nor affected are defined in D&D 3.5's rules.

This forces us to use the colloquial definitions, and by those definitions, the Demilich is being affected by AMF since it keeps it from casting spells.


Thing is, the antimagic field ISN'T stopping the demilich from casting spells.

Then everyone can cast spells in AMF? If not, the spell is stopping them.


If Antimagic Field said "creatures cannot cast spells inside an antimagic field," I would see the argument. But what it says is "an antimagic field suppresses any spell [...] used within [...] the area, but does not dispel it." So I don't see anything preventing anyone from CASTING spells inside the field – they can cast all the spells they want, it's just that those spells will be suppressed for the entire time they try to do anything.

EDIT: Oh and it also, separately, "prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines", which once again implies that spells can exist within its confines, they just don't function.


Semantics, nothing more. The end result is the same, the AMF prevents someone in its AoE from casting spells, it affects them. Otherwise, they could cast spells in an AMF.

[unseenmage]

Is there a chance, however slim, that any of these issues were covered in the ELH errata? If there even is any.

Also, I still find Savage Species to be the more egregious crime compared to the ELH due to its lower level requirements for much of its content.

Far more players have picked up SS with full intention to use its contents for a real game than can be said for the ELH I suspect.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Is there a chance, however slim, that any of these issues were covered in the ELH errata? If there even is any.

The SRD should have the most recent version of the rules.


Also, I still find Savage Species to be the more egregious crime compared to the ELH due to its lower level requirements for much of its content.

Far more players have picked up SS with full intention to use its contents for a real game than can be said for the ELH I suspect.

How many broken templates come from Savage Species alone?

[Segev]

Temporal Repair shuts down time related spells. For higher level spells, like Time Stop, allow an opposed caster level to see if it gets dispeled.Thanks, but that still doesn't give me enough information. Is it an AoE centered on you? Is it something you have to have up when your foe casts the time-related spell, or is it something you cast after the fact to "undo" it?

What book's it from? I'll see if I can look it up, myself.


The Demilich stuck his Phylactery on a moon on the other side of the universe, it's under a trap that generates an AMF. How are you going to find it?This one's pretty easy, actually. I wish for it, using the "lift from one location to another, regardless of local conditions" effect of wish. AMF is a local condition, and is a significantly lower-power effect.


Are they? They could be.Not without being demiliches, themselves. The biggest thing we're debating as a prime immunity is the magic immunity thing.


How? What if the minions stay on the Demilich's demiplane until needed?They can't come in, since I have dimension locked the battlefield. Even if the demilich is immune to dimension lock, effects he'd use to bring in his allies/minions are not.


No, that spell is granting the Fighter a benefit, not affecting the Demilich.It's still an effect of the spell affecting the demilich. I think it's silly to rule that the demilich would be immune, but if you're too liberal with the definition of "affect the demilich," this is where the mouse getting a cookie leads.


None of those are direct effects of the spells. Dispel and AMF are.Mostly fair. But the area version of dispel doesn't target the demilich, but the magical spells ON the demilich. Again, DM call whether the demilich's magical immunity extends to spell effects on it.



Antimagic Field's suppression of spell casting is clearly an effect generated by a spell. The Demilich would thus be immune.Oh, I'm not saying it prevents him from casting spells. I'm saying it interrupts his line of effect, and suppresses any effects of his spells that happen in the area. Which will look, for most purposes, like it's preventing him from casting spells. But (assuming nothing else prevents it from working), he could still alter self or polymorph himself. He just couldn't cast fireball and get any effect out of it, nor any summoning magic, etc.

He could, possibly, teleport; that's a gray area whether his own immunity to AMF means the teleportation effect shares it. He can cast it, but can he get its effect to work, or is it suppressed?


Again, that would not be the case because Haste's extra attack is an effect granted to the Fighter. The Fighter gets an extra attack, while the Demilich is not directly affected.And the demilich casting disintegrate is not directly affected, either, if the ray is suppressed by his own AMF.


You're welcome, Spell Stowaway is one of the few epic feats worth taking.It is, and most people forget it's useful for things other than time stop. Largely because there really are very few spells it is good for. But for those it is, it's very good.


I think that only applies to lowering spell resistance, not voluntarily giving up your saving throw.Possibly. But my point mainly was that, once he lowers his resistance to allow him to be affected, he can't put it back up for that effect to shut it off, nor does he have to do anything to prevent his resistance from shutting it off.


No, the Demilich is immune to dispels, as that is being affected by spells.

And there are other ways of stopping Disjunction as well.His spells are not immune to area dispells, however. Any more than he's immune to the attack the fighter gets from haste.

[unseenmage]

The SRD should have the most recent version of the rules.



How many broken templates come from Savage Species alone?
My point was less about volume of broken content (though theres still plenty) and more about frequency of content being disruptive to actual play.

I've used ELH few enough times to count on one hand.
Savage Species borked rule sets have had me exploring the whys and hows of monsters as characters content ever since I first picked the thing up.

[Dusk Raven]

Again, I don't buy this argument. If the AMF is stopping the Demilich from casting magic, it is affecting it. It is immune to spells.

Those are indirect effects.

If it's affecting the Demilich's spells, it's affecting the Demilich itself. The Demilich is immune to spells, they do not affect it at all.

I really don't know where you're drawing the line between "direct" and "indirect." Whether something is a "direct effect" or not is irrelevant anyway because spells have specific things they affect. In this case, they don't affect creatures, they affect magical effects. This in turn affects the creatures, of course, but that's a moot point, just like collapsing a bridge under a golem with a fireball spell will affect the golem just fine.

A Demilich taking damage from falling rocks is a direct result (in this case) of the rocks being conjured, a direct result of, say a gate spell.
A Demilich being unable to cast spells is a direct result of the spells being suppressed, which is a direct result of an antimagic field.

An antimagic field doesn't just say "people in the radius can't cast spells," it says that magical effects do not function within it. Actually, it's not even that it can't cast spells, it's just that instantaneous effects do not take effect and those with a duration are suppressed. Again, why would a Demilich's magic immunity extend to its spells as well? Assuming a golem could cast spells, would these spells likewise be immune to any spell that allows SR (I'm not sure what spells those would even be, but for the sake of argument)? That's the second part I don't get. I don't know why a Demilich's spells, once they are cast, are such an integral part of it that affecting them at all counts as affecting the Demilich directly for the purposes of their magic immunity. Everywhere else, "directly affecting" needs to be very direct.


EDIT: And no, that is not how I'm using it. I'm using it as, "Magic does not affect the Demilich unless is suppresses its immunity to it.

Irrelevant in this case since the Demilich obviously isn't doing so. Functionally, it's not that different anyway.


As far as I know, the only creatures that are immune to AMFs are creatures with the same magic immunity as the Demilich.

Which tells me that them being immune to AMF is probably not RAI.

Worth noting, however, that there is a 9th-level spell called Invoke Magic that a spellcaster can cast and immediately follow up with a spell which then works in an AMF, so a Demilich would still have some way around one. Other than that, I haven't found any way to simply overpower an antimagic field.


Is there a chance, however slim, that any of these issues were covered in the ELH errata? If there even is any.

There is errata, but I checked, it doesn't say anything about this issue.

[unseenmage]

... Assuming a golem could cast spells, would these spells likewise be immune to any spell that allows SR (I'm not sure what spells those would even be, but for the sake of argument)? ...
The Shield Guardian template gives golems SLAs which follow the rules for spellcasting for a lot of things. So yes, a magic immune creature can generate at least spell-like effects.

[EliDupree]

Then everyone can cast spells in AMF? If not, the spell is stopping them.

Yes. Literally, anyone (who can normally cast spells) can cast spells inside an AMF. Those spells may not do anything, but they can cast them.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Thanks, but that still doesn't give me enough information. Is it an AoE centered on you? Is it something you have to have up when your foe casts the time-related spell, or is it something you cast after the fact to "undo" it?

It is an AoE centered on the caster, IIRC.


What book's it from? I'll see if I can look it up, myself.

Dragon Magazine #350.


This one's pretty easy, actually. I wish for it, using the "lift from one location to another, regardless of local conditions" effect of wish. AMF is a local condition, and is a significantly lower-power effect.

Wish transports creatures, not objects:



Transport travelers.


Not without being demiliches, themselves.

Which they easily could be. Ice Assassin is such a lovely spell. :smallamused:


The biggest thing we're debating as a prime immunity is the magic immunity thing.

Indeed.


They can't come in, since I have dimension locked the battlefield. Even if the demilich is immune to dimension lock, effects he'd use to bring in his allies/minions are not.

Wish would work in this instance.


It's still an effect of the spell affecting the demilich. I think it's silly to rule that the demilich would be immune, but if you're too liberal with the definition of "affect the demilich," this is where the mouse getting a cookie leads.

It's far more indirect than AMF is, but I don't care if someone wants to rule the extra attack that way.


Mostly fair. But the area version of dispel doesn't target the demilich, but the magical spells ON the demilich. Again, DM call whether the demilich's magical immunity extends to spell effects on it.

That's irrelevant, the Demilich is immune to the spell. It does nothing.


Oh, I'm not saying it prevents him from casting spells. I'm saying it interrupts his line of effect,

By RAW, AMF does not block line of effect.


and suppresses any effects of his spells that happen in the area. Which will look, for most purposes, like it's preventing him from casting spells. But (assuming nothing else prevents it from working), he could still alter self or polymorph himself. He just couldn't cast fireball and get any effect out of it, nor any summoning magic, etc.

Semantics, it's still being affected.


He could, possibly, teleport; that's a gray area whether his own immunity to AMF means the teleportation effect shares it. He can cast it, but can he get its effect to work, or is it suppressed?

As long as a spell allows a saving throw, the Demilich can suppress it's immunity to it.


And the demilich casting disintegrate is not directly affected, either, if the ray is suppressed by his own AMF.

No, that is affecting its ability to cast spells.


It is, and most people forget it's useful for things other than time stop. Largely because there really are very few spells it is good for. But for those it is, it's very good.

Agreed.


Possibly. But my point mainly was that, once he lowers his resistance to allow him to be affected, he can't put it back up for that effect to shut it off, nor does he have to do anything to prevent his resistance from shutting it off.

The rules imply none of that, that would be speculation on your part.


His spells are not immune to area dispells, however. Any more than he's immune to the attack the fighter gets from haste.

Yes, the Demilich is immune to Dispel, because it affects him. He is immune to spells.





SNIP


Okay, I'm done with this line of debate, as it's going nowhere.

I am not going to respond to any more arguments about the Demilich's Magic Immunty and Dispel/AMF/Disjunction.

My position is this:

The Demilich is immune to magic and the direct effects of these spells affect the Demilich.

[Segev]

Other than that, I haven't found any way to simply overpower an antimagic field.


The wish spell's "move something from one place to another, regardless of local conditions" effect would overpower an AMF, since AMF is a local condition and wish would thus disregard it. And, if there's any question of which spell trumps the other, wish is a level 9 spell with a 5000 xp cost; it's unquestionably the more potent effect when compared to a 6th level spell with no expensive components and no xp cost.

But yes, the number of things which can get around, ignore, or overpower an AMF are few and far between.

[Dusk Raven]

As far as I know, neither the words immunity nor affected are defined in D&D 3.5's rules.

This forces us to use the colloquial definitions, and by those definitions, the Demilich is being affected by AMF since it keeps it from casting spells.

Which is a really bad thing to do in a game that relies on specifics, it opens up a huge can of worms. And at that point, you might as well just say that the Demilich can ignore the fighter's extra attack.

I simply go by the fact that a creature's communities do not extend to its own spells. Aside from things like caster level and things that specifically buff or debuff a person's spells, in general who cast a spell is irrelevant. I feel that if a Demilich's spells could ignore other spells, that would be specified (although if the book were better written we wouldn't even be having this conversation)


The Shield Guardian template gives golems SLAs which follow the rules for spellcasting for a lot of things. So yes, a magic immune creature can generate at least spell-like effects.

My question was more whether or not the spells of a golem would in turn inherit a golem's magical immunity. Although most "spell-affecting" magic doesn't allow Spell Resistance so it may be a moot point in practice.


Okay, I'm done with this line of debate, as it's going nowhere.

I am not going to respond to any more arguments about the Demilich's Magic Immunty and Dispel/AMF/Disjunction.

My position is this:

The Demilich is immune to magic and the direct effects of these spells affect the Demilich.

Unfortunate, as this still leaves me with unanswered questions.

[Lapak]

Note that Craft Contingent Spell allows you to have one Contingency per HD.Which is still a limit, and if a wizard wants to cover all his possible bases he can only spare so many on variations of 'beefy mundane warrior is in some way a threat.'

Particularly, as I mentioned, when you consider variation between tables in how contingencies operate and how much information they can have about the world.

Okay, the Demilich stuck his Phylactery on a moon on the other side of the universe, it's under a trap that generates an AMF. How are you going to find it?This one has been answered; any party that could be a threat in the first place can snag that without breaking a sweat.

As for your extreme interpretation of its magic immunity, being alone in your interpretation doesn't make you wrong, but it should make you at least consider whether your reading is as obvious as you apparently believe. I disagree with you on the degree to which it extends, and don't think there's any basis in the text for making it extend to spells the Lich cast. You agreeing that a target in an AMF would be safe from Disinitigration isn't consistent with the rest of what you are arguing, so something in your reading is off.

Edit: I was typing while your last response came in; feel free to ignore the AMF-related bit.

[Segev]

Which they easily could be. Ice Assassin is such a lovely spell. :smallamused:Fair enough.




Wish would work in this instance.Not if they're demiliches!



That's irrelevant, the Demilich is immune to the spell. It does nothing.

(...)

Semantics, it's still being affected.



As long as a spell allows a saving throw, the Demilich can suppress it's immunity to it.



No, that is affecting its ability to cast spells.


(...)

Yes, the Demilich is immune to Dispel, because it affects him. He is immune to spells.



Okay, I'm done with this line of debate, as it's going nowhere.

I am not going to respond to any more arguments about the Demilich's Magic Immunty and Dispel/AMF/Disjunction.

My position is this:

The Demilich is immune to magic and the direct effects of these spells affect the Demilich.


Just because the demilich is immune to the effect doesn't mean his spells are. I'm sorry, but the "semantics" you're playing with are important. Even with your stated position, you're over-interpreting "direct effects."

By saying that the demilich's immunity to dispel means that any spell he casts is immune to it, you're going just as far as I am when I suggest that the demilich would also be immune to the fighter's haste-granted extra attack.

Your actual position seems to be: "The demilich is immune to all magical effects, and this means he can cause his own actions to ignore them, as well."

Logically applied, the demilich can thus cast a fireball through a wall of stone, and can even see straight through said stone wall, because the wall of stone is a magical effect to which the demilich is immune. Similarly, he can summon monsters into an AMF or an area of dimension lock. He also never needs to roll a Cha contest over a creature both he and another caster have dominated. The demilich cannot be affected by effects of magic, and not being able to exert control over his dominate target because he loses a Cha contest with another dominating caster is an effect of the enemy caster's magic.

You have carved out an explicit set of effects his spells can ignore, right now, with the only logic being that you feel they make sense to you. This is fine, but this is also why my initial point was that this is an area of DM-call, and not something that the RAW will provide an explicit answer for.

[Mordar]

Okay, I'm done with this line of debate, as it's going nowhere.

I am not going to respond to any more arguments about the Demilich's Magic Immunty and Dispel/AMF/Disjunction.

My position is this:

The Demilich is immune to magic and the direct effects of these spells affect the Demilich.

Then clearly you have answered the original question. Played with a minimal intelligence and self preservation and with your stated position, the demilich cannot be killed.

Thus I believe your only choice is to gerrymander things such that the repilich is able to artificially create and maintain the necessary influence to counteract anything the demilich wants to do and leave them in an eternal state of tormented opposition that benefits no one. That should work well.

- M

[ColorBlindNinja]

Which is a really bad thing to do in a game that relies on specifics, it opens up a huge can of worms. And at that point, you might as well just say that the Demilich can ignore the fighter's extra attack.

Agreed, it's frustratingly vague.


I simply go by the fact that a creature's communities do not extend to its own spells. Aside from things like caster level and things that specifically buff or debuff a person's spells, in general who cast a spell is irrelevant. I feel that if a Demilich's spells could ignore other spells, that would be specified (although if the book were better written we wouldn't even be having this conversation)

Again, the rules are very vague.


My question was more whether or not the spells of a golem would in turn inherit a golem's magical immunity. Although most "spell-affecting" magic doesn't allow Spell Resistance so it may be a moot point in practice.

I think the better question to ask is, "If a Golem has a buff spell, could that spell be stripped away by another spell with spell resistance?"


Unfortunate, as this still leaves me with unanswered questions.

I don't mind answering questions, but I'm avoiding arguing about that topic.




Which is still a limit, and if a wizard wants to cover all his possible bases he can only spare so many on variations of 'beefy mundane warrior is in some way a threat.'

Most Contingencies would cover a wide variety of situations, my favorite is tying them short spoken phrases.


Particularly, as I mentioned, when you consider variation between tables in how contingencies operate and how much information they can have about the world.

RAW, the spell has very few limitations. Just a clause about triggers being overly convoluted.


This one has been answered; any party that could be a threat in the first place can snag that without breaking a sweat.

Wish doesn't work on objects. Unless you use unsafe effects, of course.


As for your extreme interpretation of its magic immunity, being alone in your interpretation doesn't make you wrong, but it should make you at least consider whether your reading is as obvious as you apparently believe. I disagree with you on the degree to which it extends, and don't think there's any basis in the text for making it extend to spells the Lich cast. You agreeing that a target in an AMF would be safe from Disinitigration isn't consistent with the rest of what you are arguing, so something in your reading is off.

I said my two cents on this topic, I'm done debating it.




Fair enough.

:smallsmile:


Not if they're demiliches!

Well, if they were unwilling, they could get a saving throw that they could voluntarily waive. I freely admit that's overly convoluted, though.



Just because the demilich is immune to the effect doesn't mean his spells are. I'm sorry, but the "semantics" you're playing with are important. Even with your stated position, you're over-interpreting "direct effects."

By saying that the demilich's immunity to dispel means that any spell he casts is immune to it, you're going just as far as I am when I suggest that the demilich would also be immune to the fighter's haste-granted extra attack.

Your actual position seems to be: "The demilich is immune to all magical effects, and this means he can cause his own actions to ignore them, as well."

Logically applied, the demilich can thus cast a fireball through a wall of stone, and can even see straight through said stone wall, because the wall of stone is a magical effect to which the demilich is immune. Similarly, he can summon monsters into an AMF or an area of dimension lock. He also never needs to roll a Cha contest over a creature both he and another caster have dominated. The demilich cannot be affected by effects of magic, and not being able to exert control over his dominate target because he loses a Cha contest with another dominating caster is an effect of the enemy caster's magic.

You have carved out an explicit set of effects his spells can ignore, right now, with the only logic being that you feel they make sense to you. This is fine, but this is also why my initial point was that this is an area of DM-call, and not something that the RAW will provide an explicit answer for.

Like I said, I've said my two cents and now I'm not going to debate that anymore.

[Segev]

...oof, on the subject of ice assassins of demiliches, if they have the demilich spell immunity, wouldn't that make them immune to the thing that puts them under the control of their creator?

[tyckspoon]

Wish doesn't work on objects. Unless you use unsafe effects, of course.


I think you're misunderstanding the intended Wish - it's not 'bring the phylactery to us', it's 'Take us to the location of the phylactery.' This does present significant potential for the attacking party dropping themselves into a horrible trap, but there's no real question whether or not Wish can get somebody there (figuring out where you want to Wish yourself to is a different thing, but if we're talking about parties with Epic resources to work with there's a couple of ways to do it I can think of without too much difficulty or making non-text assumptions of rules.. assuming 'the location of the phylactery belonging to FooBar the Demilich' isn't sufficient.)

[ColorBlindNinja]

...oof, on the subject of ice assassins of demiliches, if they have the demilich spell immunity, wouldn't that make them immune to the thing that puts them under the control of their creator?

My honest answer is, who knows?

EDIT:


I think you're misunderstanding the intended Wish - it's not 'bring the phylactery to us', it's 'Take us to the location of the phylactery.'

Now that works.


This does present significant potential for the attacking party dropping themselves into a horrible trap,

The obvious drawback. :smallbiggrin:


but there's no real question whether or not Wish can get somebody there (figuring out where you want to Wish yourself to is a different thing, but if we're talking about parties with Epic resources to work with there's a couple of ways to do it I can think of without too much difficulty or making non-text assumptions of rules.. assuming 'the location of the phylactery belonging to FooBar the Demilich' isn't sufficient.)

Mind Blank could pose an issue for this sort of thing.

EDIT 2: Same with Veca Blooded.

[Calthropstu]

It is an AoE centered on the caster, IIRC.



Dragon Magazine #350.



Wish transports creatures, not objects:





Which they easily could be. Ice Assassin is such a lovely spell. :smallamused:



Indeed.



Wish would work in this instance.



It's far more indirect than AMF is, but I don't care if someone wants to rule the extra attack that way.



That's irrelevant, the Demilich is immune to the spell. It does nothing.



By RAW, AMF does not block line of effect.



Semantics, it's still being affected.



As long as a spell allows a saving throw, the Demilich can suppress it's immunity to it.



No, that is affecting its ability to cast spells.



Agreed.



The rules imply none of that, that would be speculation on your part.



Yes, the Demilich is immune to Dispel, because it affects him. He is immune to spells.





Okay, I'm done with this line of debate, as it's going nowhere.

I am not going to respond to any more arguments about the Demilich's Magic Immunty and Dispel/AMF/Disjunction.

My position is this:

The Demilich is immune to magic and the direct effects of these spells affect the Demilich.

You are fully entitled to be wrong if you wish.

The rest of us will use it as written and intended.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You are fully entitled to be wrong if you wish.

Seriously? Do you have any idea how often you've been wrong?


The rest of us will use it as written and intended.

No you won't, because you don't know how it was intended to function. Unless you have a quote from the game designers that states their intentions.

[Dusk Raven]

Agreed, it's frustratingly vague.

Well, I won't argue that point. At least the golem's magic immunity has the decency to only work against things that allow SR.

Actually, that reminds me of something, I meant to look up the 3e version of golems and see if they worked the same way as the Demilich. They do: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Golem,_Clay


Clay golems are immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, except as follows. *insert spells which vary from golem to golem*

So apparently, the Demilich's magic immunity is simply an older version of an ability that non-epic creatures also have, which has since been nerfed for obvious reasons. For whatever reason the errata didn't change this, but there's a strong case to be made that the Demilich's magic immunity should work the same way as a golem's.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well, I won't argue that point. At least the golem's magic immunity has the decency to only work against things that allow SR.

Indeed.


Actually, that reminds me of something, I meant to look up the 3e version of golems and see if they worked the same way as the Demilich. They do: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Golem,_Clay



So apparently, the Demilich's magic immunity is simply an older version of an ability that non-epic creatures also have, which has since been nerfed for obvious reasons. For whatever reason the errata didn't change this, but there's a strong case to be made that the Demilich's magic immunity should work the same way as a golem's.

Yes, but it wasn't updated via Errata, then it doesn't matter. It still functions the way the 3.0 magic immunity does.

[Dusk Raven]

Yes, but it wasn't updated via Errata, then it doesn't matter. It still functions the way the 3.0 magic immunity does.

At which point it becomes DM interpretation. If that's the way it's going to be, I'm going to respond to this issue under the assumption that the Demilich's immunity simply protects it from anything that includes the Demilich in its effect, rather than anything that "affects" it, because I can't be conclusively disproven on that. And, since I really hate RAW discussions, particularly where the RAW is badly written, I wouldn't care even if I were.

[ColorBlindNinja]

At which point it becomes DM interpretation.

Not in a RAW discussion.


If that's the way it's going to be, I'm going to respond to this issue under the assumption that the Demilich's immunity simply protects it from anything that includes the Demilich in its effect, rather than anything that "affects" it, because I can't be conclusively disproven on that. And, since I really hate RAW discussions, particularly where the RAW is badly written, I wouldn't care even if I were.

Fair enough.


I think we've found only one real way to potentially kill the Demilich:

1. Wish yourselves to his Phylactery.

2. Have your epic Binder friend drop a Sphere of Annihilation on him and hope it works.

[Calthropstu]

Seriously? Do you have any idea how often you've been wrong?



No you won't, because you don't know how it was intended to function. Unless you have a quote from the game designers that states their intentions.

Several times, and I always own up to it when faced with good arguments. If someone disagrees with me, when I can do the research, I do so and come back and admit it. You are being shown the research and are simply drawing the wrong conclusions.

A fireball cast at a person with an AMF results in an explosion still. The part of the fireball that would affect the area of AMF simply doesn't work. The reverse, however, requires the fireball to pass through the AMF. Since magic creats a ball of light to explode, and the ball of light can't be created in the AMF, the spell fizzles. The spell is still cast, the magic energy is still used, but the spell fails due to suppression. It has zero effect on the lich at all.

Just as wearing a ring of counterspells would stop a disintegrate spell from a demilich, so too does an AMF. Unless you are arguing their spells can't be countered either.

[Florian]

The simple answer is: Ignore it, just go away, leave well be.

[Segev]

Not in a RAW discussion.Actually, there are a lot of points where the RAW are unclear enough that it becomes, "Ask the DM." Because you just can't come to a conclusion without making some sort of call that, in the end, would be the DM's job to make.




I think we've found only one real way to potentially kill the Demilich:

1. Wish yourselves to his Phylactery.

2. Have your epic Binder friend drop a Sphere of Annihilation on him and hope it works.

You forgot "chase him with melee attacks and Spell Stowaway."

We also haven't discussed Calling Dalmosh to eat his whole lair and send it to his stomach dimension.

[Calthropstu]

There's also create a dead magic zone around him. I suppose you could wish one into existence.

Since he doesn't have wings, his flight has to be magical in nature. At that point, he's a kickball.

[Dusk Raven]

Not in a RAW discussion.

Unless the RAW is so badly written as to require interpretation.


I think we've found only one real way to potentially kill the Demilich:

1. Wish yourselves to his Phylactery.

2. Have your epic Binder friend drop a Sphere of Annihilation on him and hope it works.

I do think having martial fighters hit it in melee would work too, you just have to get the character to it. If it flies really high, you can just use magic to get the beatstick up to it - even if it uses Antimagic Field, the spell only has a radius of 10 feet, so that only means that upon reaching that distance the character needs to be able to get within weapon range (not a problem if you're using a reach weapon) on whatever momentum they have. Prior to that, magic is just fine. Also, wings. Related, could a powerful enough dragon kill it?

New idea - Demilich versus Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon.


Since he doesn't have wings, his flight has to be magical in nature. At that point, he's a kickball.

Unfortunately, monster entries are often really bad about clearly stating whether a creature's flight is supernatural or not. The entry implies that the base Lich can have a supernatural flight speed, but the Demilich's itself need not be supernatural.

[zlefin]

Not in a RAW discussion.



Fair enough.


I think we've found only one real way to potentially kill the Demilich:

1. Wish yourselves to his Phylactery.

2. Have your epic Binder friend drop a Sphere of Annihilation on him and hope it works.
which definition of "kill" are we looking for? I thought we were looking for beating the encounter/getting its active body, not the phylactery destroying part.
and there've been plenty of ways to defeat the Demilich encounter; then you just smash the phylactery afterwards.

[Calthropstu]

Unless the RAW is so badly written as to require interpretation.



I do think having martial fighters hit it in melee would work too, you just have to get the character to it. If it flies really high, you can just use magic to get the beatstick up to it - even if it uses Antimagic Field, the spell only has a radius of 10 feet, so that only means that upon reaching that distance the character needs to be able to get within weapon range (not a problem if you're using a reach weapon) on whatever momentum they have. Prior to that, magic is just fine. Also, wings. Related, could a powerful enough dragon kill it?

Pretty sure a prismatic dragon would make short work of it. If we're sending beatsticks at it, can't see why dragons, which make pretty damn good beatsticks, would fare any worse.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Several times, and I always own up to it when faced with good arguments. If someone disagrees with me, when I can do the research, I do so and come back and admit it. You are being shown the research and are simply drawing the wrong conclusions.

You have yet to prove that.


A fireball cast at a person with an AMF results in an explosion still. The part of the fireball that would affect the area of AMF simply doesn't work. The reverse, however, requires the fireball to pass through the AMF. Since magic creats a ball of light to explode, and the ball of light can't be created in the AMF, the spell fizzles. The spell is still cast, the magic energy is still used, but the spell fails due to suppression. It has zero effect on the lich at all.

Moot.


Just as wearing a ring of counterspells would stop a disintegrate spell from a demilich, so too does an AMF. Unless you are arguing their spells can't be countered either.

The former is a spell from the Demilich affecting someone else, the other is directly effecting the Demlich.


The simple answer is: Ignore it, just go away, leave well be.

Guess that depends on what the Demilich is doing.


There's also create a dead magic zone around him. I suppose you could wish one into existence.

It wouldn't be a safe effect of Wish.


which definition of "kill" are we looking for? I thought we were looking for beating the encounter/getting its active body, not the phylactery destroying part.
and there've been plenty of ways to defeat the Demilich encounter; then you just smash the phylactery afterwards.

Putting down for good, was the "kill" I had in mind.

[unseenmage]

Could we get a Diplomacy and Bluff check high enough to just ask it nicely to off itself?

Like, politely ask it to step (float?) through a completely natural planar rift into a demilich-unfriendly environment?

EDIT

There's also create a dead magic zone around him. I suppose you could wish one into existence.

Since he doesn't have wings, his flight has to be magical in nature. At that point, he's a kickball.

FYI, Dead Magic Zones inherit from AMF. Which I know is odd but IIRC, that's how it is.

[Calthropstu]

Unless the RAW is so badly written as to require interpretation.



I do think having martial fighters hit it in melee would work too, you just have to get the character to it. If it flies really high, you can just use magic to get the beatstick up to it - even if it uses Antimagic Field, the spell only has a radius of 10 feet, so that only means that upon reaching that distance the character needs to be able to get within weapon range (not a problem if you're using a reach weapon) on whatever momentum they have. Prior to that, magic is just fine. Also, wings. Related, could a powerful enough dragon kill it?

New idea - Demilich versus Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon.



Unfortunately, monster entries are often really bad about clearly stating whether a creature's flight is supernatural or not. The entry implies that the base Lich can have a supernatural flight speed, but the Demilich's itself need not be supernatural.

Agreed. But, unless he's got rockets in his skull, it's fairly safe to determine magical in nature here. When the rules don't say, common sense is best applied. I suppose it's ultimately up to the GM though.

[Feantar]

Both spells offer saving throws, which means the Demilich can suppress its immunity:



The example given in the Player's Handbook is an Elf suppressing its immunity to sleep spells.

And if even if it can't cast Spell Immunity on itself, would it really help to use those spells on it?

I think that when you lower an immunity it stays down for that round. Or am I confusing this with SR? If I am right, it has certain moments of vulnerability.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Pretty sure a prismatic dragon would make short work of it. If we're sending beatsticks at it, can't see why dragons, which make pretty damn good beatsticks, would fare any worse.

How would the dragon kill it?


Could we get a Diplomacy and Bluff check high enough to just ask it nicely to off itself?

Like, politely ask it to step (float?) through a completely natural planar rift into a demilich-unfriendly environment?

You probably couldn't get it to kill itself, but you could make it your best friend.

That works too, defeat via the power of friendship!:smallsmile:


Agreed. But, unless he's got rockets in his skull, it's fairly safe to determine magical in nature here. When the rules don't say, common sense is best applied. I suppose it's ultimately up to the GM though.

I'm pretty sure unless it says otherwise, flight is extraordinary.

EDIT:


I think that when you lower an immunity it stays down for that round. Or am I confusing this with SR? If I am right, it has certain moments of vulnerability.

The rules don't say, as far as I know.

[Dusk Raven]

How would the dragon kill it?

Bite, 2 Claws, 2 Wings, Tail Slap. Possibly other physical means as well.


You probably couldn't get it to kill itself, but you could make it your best friend.

That works too, defeat via the power of friendship!:smallsmile:

That'd probably be for the best. Such an absurdly powerful being could be incredibly helpful as an ally, and it sounds far easier to befriend than destroy anyway. So nice when Diplomacy is the easy way!

[ColorBlindNinja]

Bite, 2 Claws, 2 Wings, Tail Slap. Possibly other physical means as well.

Meleeing a spellcaster to death is doomed to fail.


That'd probably be for the best. Such an absurdly powerful being could be incredibly helpful as an ally, and it sounds far easier to befriend than destroy anyway. So nice when Diplomacy is the easy way!

It's not technically killing it, but it's close enough.

[Calthropstu]

You have yet to prove that.



Moot.



The former is a spell from the Demilich affecting someone else, the other is directly effecting the Demlich.



Guess that depends on what the Demilich is doing.



It wouldn't be a safe effect of Wish.



Putting down for good, was the "kill" I had in mind.

I'm gonna drop the dispel debate as it is, indeed, going nowhere. And irrelevant.

As for "safe effect of wish" nothing said we need to be safe. Hell, if I could sacrifice myself to end a horrible creature of that magnitude, I'd jump on it. It's a possible kill method at the very least. May be ineffective, may be costly, may be good. Either way, it's a gm call at that point. And put down to GM call, it means "Possible success with right GM."

Next, crush it with a massive cave in. Smash it with something heavy enough to do enough damage to one shot it. Another possible kill.

As I mentioned earlier, spell research a spell that specifically gets past his immunities.

Drown it in quintessence.

Wait for it to try to buff itself so that you can hit it with a spell after its immunity has been willingly lowered.

Use telekinesis to throw epic hammers at it.

None of that is subject to his immunity.

[Florian]

Guess that depends on what the Demilich is doing.

That's the entire point: Whatever a Demilich does, it doesn't happen where the body is and all that. It´s somewhere off out there, so do not disturb. See Azererak for this.

Edit: Like everything else related to TOH, it´s a trap.

[zlefin]

if you can defeat the body, then wiping out the phylactery afterward shouldn't be hard; and it still seems like we've seen plenty of ways to beat it in combat.

btw, where are the rules on dropping immunities of this sort spelled out? or did we decide the demilich can't cast buffs on themself?

[Dusk Raven]

Meleeing a spellcaster to death is doomed to fail.

Wasn't mentioned the last time meleeing it to death was mentioned. You'll have to elaborate.

[Calthropstu]

...

I wish it dead via shapechange and getting wish as an ex ability.

Because cheese.

Edit:

Also, I use the psionics as different variant and psionically obliterate it.

[unseenmage]

Either go to PF's Golarion and pick up some technology, to Ravenloft for Devices (Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood), or use the Gnome Artificer (Magic of Faerûn*variant, p. 23) called "artificer devices" to kill it with non-magical effects that duplicate spells.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That's the entire point: Whatever a Demilich does, it doesn't happen where the body is and all that. It´s somewhere off out there, so do not disturb. See Azererak for this.

Edit: Like everything else related to TOH, it´s a trap.

And if it's trying to take over the world or something?


if you can defeat the body, then wiping out the phylactery afterward shouldn't be hard; and it still seems like we've seen plenty of ways to beat it in combat.

I've only seen one way to actually kill it. Maybe.


btw, where are the rules on dropping immunities of this sort spelled out? or did we decide the demilich can't cast buffs on themself?




Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.



Wasn't mentioned the last time meleeing it to death was mentioned. You'll have to elaborate.

It's a pretty well known problem. You have to get close enough to hit the spellcaster without them leaving via Celerity or something similar.

And bypass their miss chances, ect.

The Demilich could easily have an epic Reflect spell, making it the dragon's attacks hit itself.


...

I wish it dead via shapechange and getting wish as an ex ability.

Because cheese.

That's not a safe effect of Wish and you're still trying to use magic to kill a creature that's immune to magic.

[KillianHawkeye]

Guys, guys....

Epic Level Handbook is a 3.0 book and that's why the Demilich has 3.0-style magic immunity. If you're using it in a 3.5 game, you should update the stats accordingly.

Problem solved.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Guys, guys....

Epic Level Handbook is a 3.0 book and that's why the Demilich has 3.0-style magic immunity. If you're using it in a 3.5 game, you should update the stats accordingly.

Problem solved.

Then why wasn't it updated in the errata and why is it still in the SRD?

[Crake]

Just so you're all aware, Magic Immunity was codified in 3.5 into the current incarnation of "infinite SR". The intention was that all previous incarnations of "immune to all magical and supernatural effects" be changed into the current "infinite SR" ability, even if not explicitly called out. Of course, this isn't explicitly called out as RAW, but really, you should be using the 3.5 abilities rather than the old 3.0 versions of them.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Just so you're all aware, Magic Immunity was codified in 3.5 into the current incarnation of "infinite SR". The intention was that all previous incarnations of "immune to all magical and supernatural effects" be changed into the current "infinite SR" ability, even if not explicitly called out. Of course, this isn't explicitly called out as RAW, but really, you should be using the 3.5 abilities rather than the old 3.0 versions of them.

If it isn't called out by RAW, then by RAW no changes are made to their Magic Immunity.

[Segev]

If it isn't called out by RAW, then by RAW no changes are made to their Magic Immunity.

To be fair, your thread question is (emphasis mine): "How are you supposed to kill a Demilich?"

Since it seems that this lack of update is an oversight, you're probably supposed to kill them by updating it. Now, how CAN you without updating it? That's what we've been discussing in this thread.

[ColorBlindNinja]

To be fair, your thread question is (emphasis mine): "How are you supposed to kill a Demilich?"

Since it seems that this lack of update is an oversight, you're probably supposed to kill them by updating it. Now, how CAN you without updating it? That's what we've been discussing in this thread.

The more and more I look at the Demilich's statblock, the more I start to think it might be the worst written monster in the game.

[Dusk Raven]

It's a pretty well known problem. You have to get close enough to hit the spellcaster without them leaving via Celerity or something similar.

And bypass their miss chances, ect.

The Demilich could easily have an epic Reflect spell, making it the dragon's attacks hit itself.

The dragon is also an Epic spellcaster, and I'll be damned if it (or rather, someone on these forums) can't find a way. True, the Lich has its magic immunity, but that can't stop the dragon from casting spells on itself.


Then why wasn't it updated in the errata and why is it still in the SRD?

I think we've already established that the writers aren't the wisest when it comes to Epic level material.

[Doctor Awkward]

Turn it.

It has 21 hit dice and Turn Resistance +20.

You need to be at least level 37 to have a chance of affecting it. But if you are level 42 and succeed it is destroyed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead):

Destroying Undead
If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn.

[zlefin]

responding to my subchain w op:
you may not have seen other ways to kill it; but I've seen plenty of ways listed in thread to kill it.

too many of your defenses rely on a schrodinger's wizard.


why not just get it to drop its magic immunity then hit it with something that destroys it?

[ColorBlindNinja]

The dragon is also an Epic spellcaster, and I'll be damned if it (or rather, someone on these forums) can't find a way. True, the Lich has its magic immunity, but that can't stop the dragon from casting spells on itself.

If we allow epic magic on both sides, with no limits, then neither side can kill each other.



I think we've already established that the writers aren't the wisest when it comes to Epic level material.

I meant from a RAW perspective, but yes, you're absolutely correct about that.

[Dusk Raven]

If we allow epic magic on both sides, with no limits, then neither side can kill each other.

You're probably right. Now that's a wizard's duel...


The more and more I look at the Demilich's statblock, the more I start to think it might be the worst written monster in the game.

Quite.

Going off of what Segev said, we may have to split this into "How are you supposed to kill various interpretations of a Demilich?" We've already answered the interpretation of "a Demilich that ignores any magic that adversely effects it" with "you don't." What about less strict interpretations of its immunity?


I meant from a RAW perspective, but yes, you're absolutely correct about that.

And this is why I never go by RAW if it conflicts with RAI, common sense, or just plain civility to one's players.

[KillianHawkeye]

Then why wasn't it updated in the errata and why is it still in the SRD?

Being a late 3e book, there was no errata for the ELH. Just the 3.5 update manual, which did not have space to rewrite entire monster stat blocks. It focused more on updating monsters to the new DR system and updating their feats and skills (as monster feat and skill gain was also radically changed for several creature types).

In my opinion, they may also have not realized how magic immunity was being changed at that time (for the update booklet) since I'm pretty sure it was all happening in parallel as the new edition was being finalized.

As for the SRD, well d20srd.com is not official and includes extra things like the epic and divine rules that were written for 3rd Edition and never updated.

[Calthropstu]

And if it's trying to take over the world or something?



I've only seen one way to actually kill it. Maybe.









It's a pretty well known problem. You have to get close enough to hit the spellcaster without them leaving via Celerity or something similar.

And bypass their miss chances, ect.

The Demilich could easily have an epic Reflect spell, making it the dragon's attacks hit itself.



That's not a safe effect of Wish and you're still trying to use magic to kill a creature that's immune to magic.

It's immune to spells and spell like abilities and supernatural abilities. A wish as ex is none of those. Since it is wish, "I wish it destroyed" would likely copy the effects of something such as ressurection or disintigrate on it. Which it wouldn't be immune to because ex.

[Calthropstu]

Turn it.

It has 21 hit dice and Turn Resistance +20.

You need to be at least level 37 to have a chance of affecting it. But if you are level 42 and succeed it is destroyed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead):

That one is good too. There's enough turn boosters out there to do this relatively easily.

Edit: Wait, isn't turning SU making it immune to turning? In which case, why does it even HAVE turn resistance?

[Spider_Jerusalem]

I think brute force is indeed the way to deal with it.

The short answer is that you need your extremely resourceful epic-level party to try to create an opening, and then this guy does his work:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7c/65/b2/7c65b2fc22290894e802cdaa52933f23.jpg

[ColorBlindNinja]

If it's being played like a proper spellcaster, nothing
If it's not you just hit it with your favorite damage (ubercharge or orb). IIRC orbs bypass spell immunity because conjuration effects with instantaneous duration are unaffected by spell immunity of any form.

Case closed.

They bypass spell resistance and AMFs but they're still spells and would be subject to magic immunity.



Other solutions include Gating in the Elder Titan, creating Simulacra of advanced epic creatures (your limit is half the max possible advancement hd of the creature or your caster level), or an ice assassin of said epic creatures.

If you have epic spells you turn yourself literally invincible by stacking (ex) effects from various creatures.

All of which the Demilich can also do as well.


Turn it.

It has 21 hit dice and Turn Resistance +20.

You need to be at least level 37 to have a chance of affecting it. But if you are level 42 and succeed it is destroyed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead):

That would work, but it's immune to supernatural abilities.


responding to my subchain w op:
you may not have seen other ways to kill it; but I've seen plenty of ways listed in thread to kill it.

Such as?


too many of your defenses rely on a schrodinger's wizard.

You do realize that you can actually make Schrodinger's Wizard, right?



why not just get it to drop its magic immunity then hit it with something that destroys it?

That's be pretty hard to do. Maybe with Bluff.


You're probably right. Now that's a wizard's duel...

At that point, you may as well work through proxies.



Going off of what Segev said, we may have to split this into "How are you supposed to kill various interpretations of a Demilich?" We've already answered the interpretation of "a Demilich that ignores any magic that adversely effects it" with "you don't." What about less strict interpretations of its immunity?

Okay, which interpretations did you have in mind?


And this is why I never go by RAW if it conflicts with RAI, common sense, or just plain civility to one's players.

Sometimes, it's impossible to say what RAI actually is.


Being a late 3e book, there was no errata for the ELH.

Actually, there is errata for the Epic Handbook.


Just the 3.5 update manual,

Which is erratta.



As for the SRD, well d20srd.com is not official and includes extra things like the epic and divine rules that were written for 3rd Edition and never updated.

There was errata released for Deities and Demigods as well.


It's immune to spells and spell like abilities and supernatural abilities. A wish as ex is none of those. Since it is wish, "I wish it destroyed" would likely copy the effects of something such as ressurection or disintigrate on it. Which it wouldn't be immune to because ex.

Where are you getting an EX Wish from?


That one is good too. There's enough turn boosters out there to do this relatively easily.

Edit: Wait, isn't turning SU making it immune to turning? In which case, why does it even HAVE turn resistance?

Because the game was written by spider monkeys. :smallsigh:

[Calthropstu]

Where are you getting an EX Wish from?



I forget the name of the creature. But it legit has wish as an ex ability, allowing you to get it when you shapechange. I always thought it was cheese, but if we're cheesing up this creature, what's good for them...

[ColorBlindNinja]

I forget the name of the creature. But it legit has wish as an ex ability, allowing you to get it when you shapechange. I always thought it was cheese, but if we're cheesing up this creature, what's good for them...

I think it was a genie of some sort has a percentage chance of having EX Wish? Wouldn't that count as a unique creature?

Also, it's still not a safe effect of Wish and it'll probably offer a saving throw if it is.


It doesn't matter if you're a Demilich or an awakened rat zombie. Spellcasting is unbeatable. Which is why I said if it's used as a proper spellcaster nothing beats it. And nothing beats you either. The demlich can't kill you unless it's smarter than you (as in DM is smarter than you).

True enough.

[Calthropstu]

I think it was a genie of some sort has a percentage chance of having EX Wish? Wouldn't that count as a unique creature?

Also, it's still not a safe effect of Wish and it'll probably offer a saving throw if it is.



True enough.

Found it, it's a zodar. It's in the fiend folio

[zlefin]

re: op
ohh, maybe I'm thinking of the wrong schrodinger wizard then; or maybe I misunderstand the term. I was using it in the sense that you're not using a single defined demilich, but an ever-shifting one with ever-shifting ability sets/defenses. naming something that exists as a potential counter is quite different from it always being active.


you've seen the other ways too; you just chose to pretend they are'nt there. there's a difference between ways weren't presented, and you choosing to interpret rules/builds in such a way that you discount them, especially when your interpretation of the rules is quite doubtful on several points. it's a pedantic distinction between "ways weren't presented" and "ways weren't presented which satisfy my criteria/my definition of RAW which goes against more typical interpretations"

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, well even if I've missed an errata file somewhere, they're still not going to release errata for a book after they've switched to a new edition, so they won't have errata that updates the magic immunity to the 3.5 version.

The standard statement for using 3e stuff in a 3.5 game has always been that some alterations may be necessary to make it fit the updated rules. It seems pretty clear to me that magic immunity is one of those cases, especially when we have several examples of other monsters who had their magic immunity updated in the 3.5 Monster Manuals.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Found it, it's a zodar. It's in the fiend folio

That's Supernatural Wish. Insanely useful, but it doesn't work in this case.


ohh, maybe I'm thinking of the wrong schrodinger wizard then; or maybe I misunderstand the term. I was using it in the sense that you're not using a single defined demilich, but an ever-shifting one with ever-shifting ability sets/defenses. naming something that exists as a potential counter is quite different from it always being active.

It is entirely possible to make a caster with access to every spell all at once.



you've seen the other ways too; you just chose to pretend they are'nt there.

Then post them.


there's a difference between ways weren't presented, and you choosing to interpret rules/builds in such a way that you discount them, especially when your interpretation of the rules is quite doubtful on several points. it's a pedantic distinction between "ways weren't presented" and "ways weren't presented which satisfy my criteria"

It doesn't count if it doesn't work.

[zlefin]

and it does count if it does wokr; and plenty of the ways others have said previously in the thread work. the consensus of the bulk of the thread is that they work.

just straight up smashing would work ofc, might take some effort to get through its magical defenses, but there's ways around those. as can diplomacy, bluff, dispelling, counterspelling, and a bunch of other things. also why do you ask me to repost things which have been gone over in the thread already quite a bit? I'd think by now my point that the issue isn't that they don't work, but that they only don't work by your interpretation would be quite clear. unless you wish to relitigate each and every method with me?

you're also missing my clearly stated point about schrodingerness; until you present an actual build, you're not countering properly.

[Calthropstu]

That's Supernatural Wish. Insanely useful, but it doesn't work in this case.



It is entirely possible to make a caster with access to every spell all at once.




Then post them.



It doesn't count if it doesn't work.

I posted several that work. Others have too.

No one way will work on every build ever, but but many of the ways posted will work on some builds. So, as I posted in the beginning, make a demilich, post it and say "kill this." Because as it stands, you are coming up with "Oh it has this ability, and that ability" after we point something out. If it has every ability ever, no it can't. If it has every spell ever, no it can't. Give us a build, and we'll kill it. Kill techniques need to be targeted to specific individuals.

[ColorBlindNinja]

and it does count if it does wokr; and plenty of the ways others have said previously in the thread work. the consensus of the bulk of the thread is that they work.

Well, let's see what methods you suggest.


just straight up smashing would work ofc, might take some effort to get through its magical defenses, but there's ways around those. as can diplomacy, bluff, dispelling, counterspelling, and a bunch of other things.

An Epic Reflect spell alone would easily render all of those useless, except maybe for counterspelling.


you're also missing my clearly stated point about schrodingerness; until you present an actual build, you're not countering properly.

Again, you fail to understand that I don't need a build. Pretty much any character with access to Shapechange can get every buff spell in the game.


I posted several that work. Others have too.

EX Wish is the only one that could work that you proposed.


No one way will work on every build ever, but but many of the ways posted will work on some builds. So, as I posted in the beginning, make a demilich, post it and say "kill this." Because as it stands, you are coming up with "Oh it has this ability, and that ability" after we point something out. If it has every ability ever, no it can't. If it has every spell ever, no it can't. Give us a build, and we'll kill it. Kill techniques need to be targeted to specific individuals.

I repeat, I can make a Demilich with access to all the spells.


It's worth noting that I actually came up with a nigh surefire way to kill the Demilich in the SRD: Divine Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineSplendor).

[zlefin]

Well, let's see what methods you suggest.



An Epic Reflect spell alone would easily render all of those useless, except maybe for counterspelling.



Again, you fail to understand that I don't need a build. Pretty much any character with access to Shapechange can get every buff spell in the game.



EX Wish is the only one that could work that you proposed.



I repeat, I can make a Demilich with access to all the spells.


It's worth noting that I actually came up with a nigh surefire way to kill the Demilich in the SRD: Divine Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineSplendor).

I'll take this as you conceding you're unwilling to actually argue your point. without a build you don't actually have a monster, you have an ill-defined encounter which consists of DM-fiat says no. that's not RAW, that's just dm-fiating everything away.

epic reflect has limits; furthermore, it's not clear whether I should let the buff even apply due to the demilich's magic immunity. it also really doesn't apply at all to the points about bluff and diplomacy.

your assertion that they don't work doesn' tmean much if your assertions don't have a basis in RAW.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Demilich is a mortal?

Yes actually, Deities and Demigods defines mortals as "anyone without divine ranks."


I'll take this as you conceding you're unwilling to actually argue your point. without a build you don't actually have a monster, you have an ill-defined encounter which consists of DM-fiat says no. that's not RAW, that's just dm-fiating everything away.

No, it's exactly as I have said. One build can have access to all magic.

EDIT: If you merely want a statblock, I can use the SRD Demilich with very little tweaking.


epic reflect has limits; furthermore, it's not clear whether I should let the buff even apply due to the demilich's magic immunity.

Add in a seed that has a saving throw, then the Demilich can suppress its immunity and accept it.


your assertion that they don't work doesn' tmean much if your assertions don't have a basis in RAW.

The same is true of your own arguments.

[Calthropstu]

I'll take this as you conceding you're unwilling to actually argue your point. without a build you don't actually have a monster, you have an ill-defined encounter which consists of DM-fiat says no. that's not RAW, that's just dm-fiating everything away.

epic reflect has limits; furthermore, it's not clear whether I should let the buff even apply due to the demilich's magic immunity. it also really doesn't apply at all to the points about bluff and diplomacy.

your assertion that they don't work doesn' tmean much if your assertions don't have a basis in RAW.

Yeah, I am thinking this is pretty much done. He's unwilling to listen to anyone but himself at this point. Abandon thread.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yeah, I am thinking this is pretty much done. He's unwilling to listen to anyone but himself at this point. Abandon thread.

Then suggest something that actually works? You haven't so far. Unless you can find a monster with EX Wish?

[zlefin]

Yes actually, Deities and Demigods defines mortals as "anyone without divine ranks."



No, it's exactly as I have said. One build can have access to all magic.

EDIT: If you merely want a statblock, I can use the SRD Demilich with very little tweaking.



Add in a seed that has a saving throw, then the Demilich can suppress its immunity and accept it.



The same is true of your own arguments.
having access to all magic is very different from having all buffs active all the time, or from having every feat in existence, or whatever else.
until you present a build, you don't hvae a monster with a build and a plan. (let alone a specification of op-level allowed)


your assertion that the same is true of my arguments means nothing. You can assert anything, even if it's false. most of my arguments are just picking apart your arguments anyways :P
unless you can back up your point, it remains the case, by community consensus, as well as legalistic arguing, that your position is the one that doesn't conform well to RAW. you can ofc choose to believe a position to the contrary, but we're entirely justified in disregarding it.
I hereby find that, by RAW, many of calth's suggestions will work vs some demilich builds. therefore it's true that he has suggested many builds that will work.

if it's immune to magic, then the buffs won't apply. sure, it can lower it's immunity in order to apply the buffs; but once its immunity comes back then it's again wholly unaffected by those buffs.

also, the easiest way to kill the demilich: rule 0 and rule -1 (or whichever it is, the one about players mattering for a game to exist)

[ColorBlindNinja]

having access to all magic is very different from having all buffs active all the time, or from having every feat in existence, or whatever else.

You can have every buff spell and every feat active on one character as well.


until you present a build, you don't hvae a monster with a build and a plan. (let alone a specification of op-level allowed)

It is possible have access to all spells, feats, ect on one character. That is a legit "build".

EDIT: If you want to know how to get every feat and spell on one character, you can always ask.


your assertion that the same is true of my arguments means nothing. You can assert anything, even if it's false. most of my arguments are just picking apart your arguments anyways :P

You haven't succeeded.



unless you can back up your point,

You mean like I have?


it remains the case, by community consensus, as well as legalistic arguing, that your position is the one that doesn't conform well to RAW.

That's just the argument from popularity fallacy.


you can ofc choose to believe a position to the contrary, but we're entirely justified in disregarding it.

Feel free.


I hereby find that, by RAW, many of calth's suggestions will work vs some demilich builds. therefore it's true that he has suggested many builds that will work.

That's not how RAW works.


if it's immune to magic, then the buffs won't apply. sure, it can lower it's immunity in order to apply the buffs; but once its immunity comes back then it's again wholly unaffected by those buffs.

Oh? Are you going to back this up with actual rules?

Because all the text says is that the immune creature, "Voluntarily accepts the result". Nothing in the description implies that the immunity immediately kicks back in for that effect.


also, the easiest way to kill the demilich: rule 0 and rule -1 (or whichever it is, the one about players mattering for a game to exist)

Which is utterly useless.

Now, do you have any actual arguments?

[Red Fel]

Then suggest something that actually works? You haven't so far. Unless you can find a monster with EX Wish?

Actually, I've read plenty of suggestions that actually work. The problem is something called "moving the goalposts."

Allow me to present an analogy:

DM: You need to cross this chasm. Of course, nobody can, chasms are impossible in this game.

P1: No problem. I cast Fly and-

DM: Doesn't work, there's a horizontal Wall of Force that prevents you from going high over it.

P2: Okay, I'll throw a grappling hook and-

DM: Wind Wall.

P3: I can see the other side, I'll use Teleport and-

DM: Antimagic Field.

P4: Maybe if I just climb down the side of-

DM: Grease.

Party: . . .

DM: See, this is why I said nobody can get past chasms in this game. It's just impossible!
That's what happened here. You provided a finite challenge - a Demilich. You then tacked on every defense you could think of. And sure, a Demilich is likely to have some, maybe many, defenses. But when you simply shoot down every option, at a certain point, the PCs aren't fighting the Demilich, they're fighting you, the DM. And a DM has infinite resources, infinite saves, and infinite HP.

Just pick a statblock. A finite, complete, rules-compliant statblock. And then ask people to fight that. Because if you keep pulling out more defenses and more tricks, the answer is, "No, you're right, a DM is a brokenly-powerful and OP monster and shouldn't exist in the game."

[ijon]

and now we're at the true method of killing a demilich: throw heavy things at the DM until he stops turning a floating skull with gems in its eyes into an unstoppable, omniscient god-in-all-but-name

see, brute force does work!

[ColorBlindNinja]

Actually, I've read plenty of suggestions that actually work.

Such as?


The problem is something called "moving the goalposts."

Allow me to present an analogy:
That's what happened here. You provided a finite challenge - a Demilich. You then tacked on every defense you could think of. And sure, a Demilich is likely to have some, maybe many, defenses.


"Every defense I can think of?" No, I didn't, I suggested, what, 5 spells? Ironguard, AMF, and Contingency are the ones I recall.

EDIT: I forgot about Epic Reflect.

I am trying to explain to some of the other posters that you can have a build with every meaningful defense, but that's moot.


But when you simply shoot down every option, at a certain point, the PCs aren't fighting the Demilich, they're fighting you, the DM. And a DM has infinite resources, infinite saves, and infinite HP.

And this is a strawman.

Plus, I already said that the Binder could probably Sphere of Annihilation to kill it.

And that Diplomacy would work too.

I even suggested a nigh foolproof tactic of my own that would pretty much always work, save for a really broken spell.


Just pick a statblock. A finite, complete, rules-compliant statblock. And then ask people to fight that. Because if you keep pulling out more defenses and more tricks, the answer is, "No, you're right, a DM is a brokenly-powerful and OP monster and shouldn't exist in the game."


You mean the one that I've basically been using this entire time? The one in the SRD? Except with Epic Spellcasting instead of, oh, I don't know, Improved Spell Capacity?

[Calthropstu]

and now we're at the true method of killing a demilich: throw heavy things at the DM until he stops turning a floating skull with gems in its eyes into an unstoppable, omniscient god-in-all-but-name

see, brute force does work!

make sure it's the epic level handbook to get past dr.

[ColorBlindNinja]

On a semi related note, one thing I quickly noticed is that the Demilich's Magic Immunity keeps it from casting a huge chunk of buff spells and I started thinking of a way to mitigate it.

I think I found it, but it requires it to be level 22. Take 11 levels in Wizard or what ever, then take 9 levels in Shadow Caster. Take your 21st level in Wizard and become a Demilich, then take your 22nd level in Shadow Caster.

You are no longer undead, but a native outsider.

That makes you a valid target for a spell called Trait Removal. Normally it doesn't work on undead, but now you're an outsider. Give up your saving throw and have Trait Removal take away your Magic Immunity for hours per level.

Then you can buff to your heart's content.

[zlefin]

You can have every buff spell and every feat active on one character as well.



It is possible have access to all spells, feats, ect on one character. That is a legit "build".

EDIT: If you want to know how to get every feat and spell on one character, you can always ask.



You haven't succeeded.




You mean like I have?



That's just the argument from popularity fallacy.



Feel free.



That's not how RAW works.



Oh? Are you going to back this up with actual rules?

Because all the text says is that the immune creature, "Voluntarily accepts the result". Nothing in the description implies that the immunity immediately kicks back in for that effect.



Which is utterly useless.

Now, do you have any actual arguments?
your assertion that I haven't succeeded still doesn't count for anything if it lacks substantiation.

and you haven't proven your points. you merely assert you have even though you have not. assertion does not make truth.

it's not a fallacy; not when the underlying question is one which does not have a single well-defined answer, and wherein the communal definition is important. In particular, it's a very useful indicator for when someone is simply willfully ignoring reality. (and from an argumentation standpoint, unless there's some independent adjudicator, a person can simply assert their opponents wrong regardless of whether it is so or not, and on the internet, you will inevitably meet quite a lot of people who do so)
It's unequivocally true that RAW for DnD is not completely and thoroughly defined, unlike say chess or m:tg, and that as such there are vague points which require adjudication which will necessarily be informed by things outside the text itself (even moreso if we ponder the lessons of uh, Wittgenstein iirc)

it accepts the spell; but then once the immunity returns the effect no longer happens because it's immune to all magical effects. for an instantaneous effect it wouldn't be a problem; but an ongoing effect clearly can't apply when the creature is in a state that's explicitly immune to such effects.

I have tons of actual arguments, (well, more like several then tons) which I made. You just chose to pretend they weren't there.

[ColorBlindNinja]

your assertion that I haven't succeeded still doesn't count for anything if it lacks substantiation.

and you haven't proven your points. you merely assert you have even though you have not. assertion does not make truth.

A strange thing to say, considering you haven't backed up any of your points.


it's not a fallacy; not when the underlying question is one which does not have a single well-defined answer, and wherein the communal definition is important.

Being popular doesn't make it valid, it is a fallacy.


it accepts the spell; but then once the immunity returns the effect no longer happens because it's immune to all magical effects. for an instantaneous effect it wouldn't be a problem; but an ongoing effect clearly can't apply when the creature is in a state that's explicitly immune to such effects.

Your proof for that is?

EDIT: An equally valid interpretation would be that suppressing the immunity allows the effect to persist until it wears off.


I have tons of actual arguments, (well, more like several then tons) which I made. You just chose to pretend they weren't there.

Then post them. All I saw was, "Melee it to death!" combed with "Dispel its buffs!" Which I already said wont' work with Epic Reflect.

[zlefin]

A strange thing to say, considering you haven't backed up any of your points.



Being popular doesn't make it valid, it is a fallacy.



Your proof for that is?



Then post them. All I saw was, "Melee it to death!" combed with "Dispel its buffs!" Which I already said wont' work with Epic Reflect.
my proof is the straightforward wording of the abilities. no more proof is needed. if it's immune to the effect then it's immune to the effect.

it's not a fallacy, you're misunderstanding how fallacies work and what the point is. It remains a very useful indicator that someone is just talking nonsense regardless of the evidence. but you're just proving my point further, that one person can choose to assert the others' arguments are wrong regardless of whether they are or not. If you find me frustrating to deal with, note that everyone else is feeling the same way about you, because you are acting similarly.

They have been posted; and I posted several other things as well in the past, that you chose to ignore that is on you, and shows you're not even taking the argument seriously, since I explicitly mentioned others like bluff.
You've also failed to address the point that epic reflect has limits, in particular it's triggered once then gone "A single successful use of reflect expends its protection.", which means one can just clear out however many copies of epic reflect are stacked.
not to mention that it fails to address the point that you're still not using a defind build. and that you seem to be allowing unlimited and unspecified uses of things; in which case I simply cast an epic spell that kills demiliches and has a clause to bypass magic immunity.
or have copies of epic reflect on myself.

at any rate, this argument is clear and quite done. the op has been proven unequivocally wrong and arguing fallaciously, several methods of kliling a demilich are available. nothing more to say. g'night all, it's been an interesting discussion.

[D+1]

If the DM wants to win, he wins. If a DM says, "This monster cannot be defeated because I, the DM, can think of reasons that ANY tactic will fail, regardless of whether the monster actually thinks of and uses those tactics or not," then the DM wins. Did everyone at the table have fun losing to the DM's whim regardless of EVERY good idea they came up with? Hmn...

[Lapak]

Hmm. If that's the defenses, I'd propose you can kill it with a melee brute after all.

Necessary ingredients:
1. Ubercharger with non-metal or natural weapons, capable of attack routine of 6+ attacks where the 6th attack deals 150+ damage reliably. Has non-magical flight and one of:
- immunity to its damage
- ability to contribute attacks after dropping below 0 hp
- enough HP to survive it's own attack routine

Not trivial, but it shouldn't be impossible.

2. Epic caster capable of casting a spell using the Conceal seed that includes coverage from Divination-type effects and beating the lich in a caster-level check.

The Conceal epic spell, which specifically prevents divination spells from revealing any information about the target, should allow the brute to bypass Foresight and surprise-attack the lich before it can activate any contingencies. Its 6th attack will bypass a Reflect-seed epic spell (assuming that's active) and destroy it.

[Calthropstu]

Your argument is

Demilich has all the resources PCs have therefore they are unkillable by PCs

>.>

How about 1 demilich against 4 demiliches? There you go, end of discussion.

Let me mimick you for a second.

The PCs have 4 times whatever the Demilich has. 1 Ice Assassin of Pun-Pun? PCs have 4 ice assassins of Pun-Pun. There's no way the demilich can beat PCs. Seriously, how can 1 beat 4.

Actually, looking at that a demilich actually can't kill another demilich. It's immune to everything it can use itself.

[Dusk Raven]

It is entirely possible to make a caster with access to every spell all at once.

Is it possible to make a Demilich that, on a random point in time when adventurers might encounter it, cast any spell on the spot (other than through Wish, I suppose) with no prior preparation? I genuinely don't know the answer to that.

It seems to me that, whenever someone posts an answer, you counter it with something that a Demilich could do, not something it neccessarily will do. That is, this isn't just one Demilich we're trying to kill, it's every possible Demilich at once. Which I suppose is somewhat fair, as we're drawing from every possible character idea, but all the same it's sort of like trying to come up with counters to a Wizard, when the Wizard in question is actually every Wizard possible, it's more about "Could a Wizard counter this?" rather than, "Would a Wizard of a particular build be able to counter this?" For that matter, is the Wizard guaranteed to have his particular counters set up at the time, or by the time, the PCs show up? This is another reason to go along with what I said earlier, trying to kill specific interpretations of a Demilich, rather than trying to find something that could kill all Demiliches ever.

For that matter, I have to ask - how long in game time would it take a Demilich to set all this up? To learn the Epic spells required, or to properly set up its defenses?

And, relating to a point raised with Epic Reflect, how long could a Demilich actually keep all this up? Is it possible to defeat one through attrition?


Your argument is

Demilich has all the resources PCs have therefore they are unkillable by PCs

>.>

How about 1 demilich against 4 demiliches? There you go, end of discussion.

Let me mimick you for a second.

The PCs have 4 times whatever the Demilich has. 1 Ice Assassin of Pun-Pun? PCs have 4 ice assassins of Pun-Pun. There's no way the demilich can beat PCs. Seriously, how can 1 beat 4.

...I think this is actually just making me hate 3.5, or at least the sheer amount of crap that certain spellcaster can string together. That's my real problem, that all this cheese is even doable.

[ColorBlindNinja]

my proof is the straightforward wording of the abilities. no more proof is needed. if it's immune to the effect then it's immune to the effect.

You mean the immunity that the Demilich lowered to accept the effect? That immunity?


it's not a fallacy, you're misunderstanding how fallacies work and what the point is.

It most certainly is a fallacy. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)


but you're just proving my point further, that one person can choose to assert the others' arguments are wrong regardless of whether they are or not.

I'm sorry, but you're the one who keeps asserting things without backing them up.

If you want me to clarify some point on my end, then tell me what point you want elaborated.


They have been posted; and I posted several other things as well in the past, that you chose to ignore that is on you, and shows you're not even taking the argument seriously,

So for the sake of clarity, post them again.


since I explicitly mentioned others like bluff.

And I do believe I said that could work.


You've also failed to address the point that epic reflect has limits, in particular it's triggered once then gone "A single successful use of reflect expends its protection.", which means one can just clear out however many copies of epic reflect are stacked.

And? You can add the Reflect Seed as many times as you want if you get the migration high enough.

Every time you use the Fortify Seed to give yourself SR 0, you get add a negative number to your final DC. Repeat as many times as needed.



not to mention that it fails to address the point that you're still not using a defind build.

You seem to be unable to grasp that a build isn't need for a character to have every meaninful option. I've basically been using this one, swapping Improved Spell Capacity for Epic Spellcasting. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm)


that you seem to be allowing unlimited and unspecified uses of things; in which case I simply cast an epic spell that kills demiliches and has a clause to bypass magic immunity.

Which isn't allowed via the Epic Spellcasting rules.


or have copies of epic reflect on myself.

Go right ahead, it doesn't actually help you kill the Demilich.


at any rate, this argument is clear and quite done. the op has been proven unequivocally wrong, several methods of kliling a demilich are available. nothing more to say. g'night all, it's been an interesting discussion.

And you never managed to back up a single one of your arguments, while asserting you were right.


Your argument is

Demilich has all the resources PCs have therefore they are unkillable by PCs

>.>

How about 1 demilich against 4 demiliches? There you go, end of discussion.

Let me mimick you for a second.

The PCs have 4 times whatever the Demilich has. 1 Ice Assassin of Pun-Pun? PCs have 4 ice assassins of Pun-Pun. There's no way the demilich can beat PCs. Seriously, how can 1 beat 4.

Are you quite finished with your strawmen? Because I never said any of that.


Hmm. If that's the defenses, I'd propose you can kill it with a melee brute after all.

Necessary ingredients:
1. Ubercharger with non-metal or natural weapons, capable of attack routine of 6+ attacks where the 6th attack deals 150+ damage reliably. Has non-magical flight and one of:
- immunity to its damage
- ability to contribute attacks after dropping below 0 hp
- enough HP to survive it's own attack routine

Not trivial, but it shouldn't be impossible.

2. Epic caster capable of casting a spell using the Conceal seed that includes coverage from Divination-type effects and beating the lich in a caster-level check.

The Conceal epic spell, which specifically prevents divination spells from revealing any information about the target, should allow the brute to bypass Foresight and surprise-attack the lich before it can activate any contingencies. Its 6th attack will bypass a Reflect-seed epic spell (assuming that's active) and destroy it.

That tactic could still fail depending on the Contingency and how many uses of the Epic Reflect spell the Demilich has.

Also, an epic Conceal spell is still a spell, which the Demilich is immune to.


Actually, looking at that a demilich actually can't kill another demilich. It's immune to everything it can use itself.

Ironically, yes.


Is it possible to make a Demilich that, on a random point in time when adventurers might encounter it, cast any spell on the spot (other than through Wish, I suppose) with no prior preparation? I genuinely don't know the answer to that.

Depends on how much you optimize.


It seems to me that, whenever someone posts an answer, you counter it with something that a Demilich could do, not something it neccessarily will do. That is, this isn't just one Demilich we're trying to kill, it's every possible Demilich at once. Which I suppose is somewhat fair, as we're drawing from every possible character idea, but all the same it's sort of like trying to come up with counters to a Wizard, when the Wizard in question is actually every Wizard possible, it's more about "Could a Wizard counter this?" rather than, "Would a Wizard of a particular build be able to counter this?" For that matter, is the Wizard guaranteed to have his particular counters set up at the time, or by the time, the PCs show up? This is another reason to go along with what I said earlier, trying to kill specific interpretations of a Demilich, rather than trying to find something that could kill all Demiliches ever.

I mostly was using only 5 or so main defenses for this challenge, I was just pointing out that Schrodinger's Wizard is a legit build.


For that matter, I have to ask - how long in game time would it take a Demilich to set all this up? To learn the Epic spells required, or to properly set up its defenses?

It could learn the epic spell instantly if it dropped the final DC to 0.

As for the rest of it? I'm not 100%.


And, relating to a point raised with Epic Reflect, how long could a Demilich actually keep all this up? Is it possible to defeat one through attrition?

Maybe? It depends on how insane you get with mitigation.

[Lapak]

That tactic could still fail depending on the Contingency and how many uses of the Epic Reflect spell the Demilich has.

Also, an epic Conceal spell is still a spell, which the Demilich is immune to.
On point 1, yes, that's why I pointed out the specific Contingencies are important earlier, to which you responded you favor Contingencies triggered by specific short phrases (useless in this instance) but provided nothing further. So I'm not buying it.

As for the 'how many uses,' this is why people keep asking you to be specific. Sure, it could theoretically have NI instances of the Reflect seed against physical attacks. But having any defense isn't the same as having every defense, and you continue to only add specifics in situations like this where someone comes up with a specific counter-tactic, which is more like the DM-fiat that was described above than an actual argument. I could just as easily say 'the epic wizard with the Conceal seed creates or recruits as many copies of the melee brute as necessary to repeat the attack until they burn through the Reflect;' it's a pointless endeavor unless we agree on specifics.

As for the 'it's immune to Conceal,' now it feels like you're just arguing in bad faith compared to the discussion so far. The Conceal is affecting the brute, not the lich, exactly like the Haste spell thrown out earlier. Unless you're suggesting that someone under the effect of Bull's Strength does less damage when hitting the lich because otherwise 'the lich is affected by the spell.'

But I think it's clear that we're not going to come to any agreement about terms here, so I'll bow out of this conversation.

[Dusk Raven]

I mostly was using only 5 or so main defenses for this challenge, I was just pointing out that Schrodinger's Wizard is a legit build.

I reiterate (in case you missed it, I dunno how long that post took to make) that I think I now hate 3.5. Or, at least, I hate it when someone goes to the trouble of actually optimizing everything. It really is a system where a character can be more than the sum of their parts... especially if they're Tier 1.

I think if I did use a Demilich in a campaign (if I were somehow possessed to run one at Epic level), I could just go ahead and optimize it like so, but give the players knowledge of an artifact that could cripple it, perhaps by taking away its magic immunity. After all, if the DM can make it nigh-invincible as-written, they can also give it a weakness outside RAW... ah, it's good to be DM.

[ColorBlindNinja]

On point 1, yes, that's why I pointed out the specific Contingencies are important earlier, to which you responded you favor Contingencies triggered by specific short phrases (useless in this instance) but provided nothing further. So I'm not buying it.

You can speak out of turn order. The idea is that the Demilich speaks the word and it gets whisked back to its sanctum.


As for the 'how many uses,' this is why people keep asking you to be specific. Sure, it could theoretically have NI instances of the Reflect seed against physical attacks. But having any defense isn't the same as having every defense, and you continue to only add specifics in situations like this where someone comes up with a specific counter-tactic,

Alright, how about it absorbs 25 hits?


which is more like the DM-fiat that was described above than an actual argument. I could just as easily say 'the epic wizard with the Conceal seed creates or recruits as many copies of the melee brute as necessary to repeat the attack until they burn through the Reflect;' it's a pointless endeavor unless we agree on specifics.

And this is why epic falls apart faster than a tissue box on the Nile. :smallsigh:


As for the 'it's immune to Conceal,' now it feels like you're just arguing in bad faith compared to the discussion so far. The Conceal is affecting the brute, not the lich, exactly like the Haste spell thrown out earlier. Unless you're suggesting that someone under the effect of Bull's Strength does less damage when hitting the lich because otherwise 'the lich is affected by the spell.'

In that case, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. That should work just fine, then.


But I think it's clear that we're not going to come to any agreement about terms here, so I'll bow out of this conversation.

Well, we already found, what, 3 ways to kill the Demilich?


I reiterate (in case you missed it, I dunno how long that post took to make) that I think I now hate 3.5. Or, at least, I hate it when someone goes to the trouble of actually optimizing everything. It really is a system where a character can be more than the sum of their parts... especially if they're Tier 1.

It's a broken system, that's for sure.


I think if I did use a Demilich in a campaign (if I were somehow possessed to run one at Epic level), I could just go ahead and optimize it like so, but give the players knowledge of an artifact that could cripple it, perhaps by taking away its magic immunity. After all, if the DM can make it nigh-invincible as-written, they can also give it a weakness outside RAW... ah, it's good to be DM.

I myself would probably run a Demilich fairly unoptimized, unless I was playing with a group that was up for that kind of challenge.

[Bohandas]

You can still use spells to affect the area around it. Throw a building at it with telekinesis. Conjure something real above it and then drop it on them (such as a wall of iron, or a horizontal wall of stone followed by stone to flesh or disintegrate to knockout whatever it's moored to)

[ColorBlindNinja]

It doesn't matter whether you're blind to your own arguments or not.

Again, I never said anything about Demiliches with everything except as a potential build.

It is a strawman.


What I said is true. 4 spellcasters beat 1 spellcaster.

No, it isn't.

If the 4 spellcasters are level 1 and the single spellcaster is level 15, the level 1 casters lose.

At the very highest levels of optimization, they won't be able to harm each other.

[Jack_Simth]

Short answer? D&D is a multiple PC game. So:

1) Be an at least equally well optimized caster (or have at least one such in your party).
2) Apply suitable magical effects to the party member with the breathtaking anger management issues sufficiently to counter the Demilich's magic (or have them applied to you, if you're the one with the anger management issues).
3) Apply suitable magical effects to the party member with kelptomania problems sufficiently to counter the Demilich's magic (or have them applied to you, if you're the kleptomaniac).
4) Arrange the encounter to taste.

[Bohandas]

Depending on one's reading of the rules a cleric of Gruumsh, Heironeous, Nerull, Pelor, or Wee Jas could theoretically slay it with the Miracle spell if they paid the extra cost. The demilich cannot be affected by he Miracle spell itself but it theoretically can be affected by the Life and Death salient divine ability of the deity (if we note from the blurb from Hand of Death (which "can slay any living mortal creature", deities and demigods pg 44) that mortal does not necessarily imply living, and not from the benefit line of the Life and death description that it works on "any mortal", as stated on Deities and Demigods pg 46)

[Yogibear41]

I'm sure a supped up level 30 uber-charger could kill a 130 hp monster even if it has to go through a DR of 30/-

Also couldn't you just gate in a solar (or several solars) and have them holy smite it to death?

[zfs]

So even if your DM doesn't accept the more permissive reading of Reserves of Strength, an epic level caster (or a dragonwrought kobold if your DM lets you qualify for epic feats) can cast an Enhanced Maximized Empowered Shatter. That's 180 damage - sonic resistance absorbs 20, the remaining 160 is enough to kill it. With only a +10 Fort save, it's trivial to make your DC high enough that the Demilich only succeeds on a 20. Since the spell uses an 11th level slot, it bypasses Greater Spell Immunity and Epic Spell Reflection. Use caster level shenanigans to get a long enough range that you can potentially cast it without the Demilich knowing you're there. The issue is getting line of effect, though.

I'm sure there's still room for one of the 2,000+ spells to block this or for the Demilich to have 100 contingencies against it but I feel like this is a pretty solid method of killing it.

Edit: Eh, I forgot that Shatter only deals half damage to the Demilich. So you need to add in Twin Spell. You'll probably have to be well into epic now. Take Improved Metamagic to get them all reduced by one and a Twinned Enhanced Maximized Empowered Shatter is still an 11th level slot. But you need 30 ranks in Spellcraft to take Improved Metamagic.


I'm sure a supped up level 30 uber-charger could kill a 130 hp monster even if it has to go through a DR of 30/-

Also couldn't you just gate in a solar (or several solars) and have them holy smite it to death?

Oh it easily can - I'm sure there's a PA Leap Attack build that can one shot it at pretty low levels (though you do need to be able to hit a 51 AC after power attacking, so it's not that easy). ColorBlindNinja is arguing that no 21st level caster with their salt will ever be struck in melee. Which is sort of true, but it's boring if DM's just play every 9-level caster as Schrodinger's Wizard. Holy Smite should work just like Shatter does, it's just harder to get the damage high enough outside of the aforementioned Reserves of Power abuse. But a bunch of Solars casting it at once should do the trick.

Another Edit: If we want to counter Epic with Epic, we can somehow summon an Umbral Blot on top of it - its disintegration ability is (Ex) so the Demilich shouldn't be immune, and it can't make the Fortitude save except on a 20. Should be able to Wish it right next to the Demilich if you can beat the Umbral Blot's Will save to resist the forced transport.

[Bohandas]

Short answer? D&D is a multiple PC game. So:

1) Be an at least equally well optimized caster (or have at least one such in your party).
2) Apply suitable magical effects to the party member with the breathtaking anger management issues sufficiently to counter the Demilich's magic (or have them applied to you, if you're the one with the anger management issues).
3) Apply suitable magical effects to the party member with kelptomania problems sufficiently to counter the Demilich's magic (or have them applied to you, if you're the kleptomaniac).
4) Arrange the encounter to taste.

Kleptomania doesn;t work on undead, constructs, or oozes

[Yogibear41]

Could always default back to the action economy argument then 4 pcs vs 1 monster. Monster spends 1 turn countering what 1 pc does, 3 other pcs still have their actions etc.

Also in our game we use non-magical psionics, so technically the demilich has no protection vs psionics.

[zfs]

If you can thwart its divination attempts, it doesn't have amazing senses - an enlarged ubercharger with a reach weapon and Superior Invisibility cast on it should be able to hit it without getting into the AMF and having your invisibility stripped away.

[flappeercraft]

After some brief research there is one way with absolutely no magic used on the demilich that bypasses all defenses thus far mentioned. Wizard 11/Gnome Artificer 9.

Make a Device of Shout, and use all contingents for Celerity and cast Celerity yourself. Now you use the device to replicate 22 Shout Spells completely nonmagically. In the description of the magic immunity of the demilich it can be seen they are treated as crystalline creatures therefore this would deal 189d6 damage. That is 661.5 damage in average. Taking the sonic resistance they have though the damage is reduced to 241. Have this guy have the leadership feat and have his cohort do the same thing. Now we're talking about 44 Shout Spells at 482 average damage. Due to the save DC for half damage being DC 17 and the Demilich having a +10 it means it fails the save 30% of the time. Even assuming it succeeded on all of those saves it still takes 241 damage which is still 102 hp over the amount of HP it has.

Edit: Also Divine Splendor doesn't work on a demilich. It can't die, undead are destroyed.

[Florian]

And if it's trying to take over the world or something?

Well, the actual fluff behind the Demilich is that it is actually bored to death by the world, or rather, by the whole Prime Material Plane and has gone astral projecting forever, which is the reason why the body crumbled away.

So, as a GM, for once tread some monsters like their fluff would dictate and you get the answer to your question (which is: clobber it to death)

[Aharon]

EDIT: If you merely want a statblock, I can use the SRD Demilich with very little tweaking.


I'd like to see this stat-block, including chosen feats and active buffs.

[Jack_Simth]

Kleptomania doesn;t work on undead, constructs, or oozes

There are both feats and items for that.

[Edreyn]

I am not expert, so don't laugh.

How is Wish really limited? You keep discussing what can one do with it, and what can't.

Is it possible for example:

1) Wish demilich to be sent to Positive Energy Plane\Mount Celestia. And maybe another wish to keep him there long enough.
2) Use Wish to summon Tarrasque, or someone else who can swallow whole\grapple and immobilize him?
3) Wish to summon a creature, possibly from Upper Planes, that can kill and will want to kill demilich?
4) Just wish a plenty of positive energy hit demilich?
5) Wish to gain for one time use ability to turn undead of demilich status?
6) Wish for weapons that deal positive energy damage? (or just get those weapons)
7) Wish lich get banished to one of Lady of Pain Mazes? But first he doesn't really die, second if Lady won't like this, the demilich will become the lesser of your problems.

What I think has a chance:
Example with Tarrasque: Summon it with Wish. Use any means possible to make it swallow demilich. Keep healing Tarrasque, until demilich inside it dies. If Tarrasque dies just summon another one. :smallbiggrin:
Once done, banish Tarrasque back to where you took it from.

Melee attack: Unleash melee hell on him, provided all weapons are fully buffed to cause him maximized harm.

More as humor - Vorpal Sword: It says that it can only kill creatures that have heads. It doesn't forbid killing creatures that have ONLY head. :smallbiggrin:

[Deophaun]

As for the SRD, well d20srd.com is not official and includes extra things like the epic and divine rules that were written for 3rd Edition and never updated.
While this is true, the Demilich is part of the 3.5 SRD as released by WotC.

https://archive.org/details/dnd35srd

[ColorBlindNinja]

Edit: Also Divine Splendor doesn't work on a demilich. It can't die, undead are destroyed.

I think that argument is predicated upon questionable semantics.

EDIT: IIRC, the divine salient ability Alter Reality is EX, so that could work.

[hamishspence]

Alter Form is specifically called out as Extraordinary:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities

but where is Alter Reality called out as such?

That said, whatever a Salient Divine ability is, it works in an antimagic field, so the lack of reference to it being Extraordinary may not matter.

[Bohandas]

Plus, some are explicitly called out as supernatural and many of the rest don't seem to be spell-like

[Calthropstu]

Correct answer:

With gusto.

Also, kill a lich is easy: do nothing. It's already dead.

[Goaty14]

You seem to be unable to grasp that a build isn't need for a character to have every meaninful option.

Yes it is. If this demilich is the infamous Adept Lich +Demilich Template, then it loses many of the defenses you've supposedly given thus far.


I've basically been using this one, swapping Improved Spell Capacity for Epic Spellcasting. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm)

But what spells does it have prepared/buffed each day? What's his buff routine, how does he normally act in combat? Does he have minions? What minions? How did he get said minion? What items does he have, or how does he otherwise spend his WBL? It's still a "moving goalposts" thing if there are still arbitrary features that have not been worked out.

P.S. You mentioned Craft Contingent Spell as an available defense. The aforementioned statblock doesn't have it as a feat, so?

[Bohandas]

You could use environmental things to effectively launder the magic out of spell effects. For example, if you could somehow cover the lich in metal (metal melt and a bucket?)you could use fire spells to heat the metal to the point where the metal will burn he lich

[Doctor Awkward]

More as humor - Vorpal Sword: It says that it can only kill creatures that have heads. It doesn't forbid killing creatures that have ONLY head. :smallbiggrin:

Demiliches are quite specifically immune to vorpal weapons:


Damage Reduction (Su)
A demilich loses any previous damage reduction and instead has damage reduction 15/Epic and bludgeoning (15 points of damage is subtracted from all melee attacks unless the weapon used is both an epic and a bludgeoning weapon). Vorpal weapons, no matter their enhancement bonus, ignore this damage reduction but do only half damage to a demilich (demiliches cannot be beheaded).

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yes it is. If this demilich is the infamous Adept Lich +Demilich Template, then it loses many of the defenses you've supposedly given thus far.

I am not familiar with that trick. You mean Adept like the class?


But what spells does it have prepared/buffed each day? What's his buff routine, how does he normally act in combat?

Does it matter? We already solved this challenge, in at least 3-4 different ways. The thread has served its purpose as far as I'm concerned.


Does he have minions? What minions? How did he get said minion?

Any minions he has would probably be from Ice Assassin or the Greater Planar Ally SLA it can use twice per day.


What items does he have, or how does he otherwise spend his WBL?

With free Wishes, it can have all the items it wants.

Seriously, when I said one build could have all spells/feats/ect. they want I meant it.


It's still a "moving goalposts" thing if there are still arbitrary features that have not been worked out.

Not my fault the SRD's entry on the Demlich doesn't detail those things.


P.S. You mentioned Craft Contingent Spell as an available defense. The aforementioned statblock doesn't have it as a feat, so?

So buy it? It's a magic item.

[Bohandas]

You can nullify most magic (and even most gods) by combining the Planar Bubble spell with any creature that lives in the Outlands near the spire

[King of Nowhere]

I
What are you supposed to do? Melee it to death? It's an epic spellcaster! :smallfrown:


Well, why not? I guess you really are supposed to melee it to death.
I know that the concept of melee being useful is strongly frowned upon here. It doesn't help that in order to make melee more useful, they had to make stuff immune to all magic.

Anyway, use buff spells on your fighter friend, use counterspells and dispels to keep the demilich from acting, and let the fighter kill it. Seems a reasonable team effort.

EDIT: if you really loathe to have a melee in the party, you can use shapechange or something like it to melee yourself.

[Mr Adventurer]

IIRC a creature can't have more Crafted Contingent Spells on it than it's Constitution (score? bonus? doesn't matter)...

[Bohandas]

Craft a bunch of golems and send those after it

[ShurikVch]

Firstly, why we should presuming Demilich is actually have any Epic levels?
CREATING A DEMILICH

"Demilich" is a template that can be added to any lich.See?
The "any lich"!
IMHO, "any" means any.
For all we know, Krilla Darkhand - Female goblin lich adept 11 from Libris Mortis - may turn into a Demilich too, without taking any extra levels

And how to kill a Demilich?
Pedantic answer: you can't - because a Demilich isn't alive!
On a slightly more serious note - let your resident stealth specialist to sneak up on the Demilich and cut their astral cord with a Silver Sword

[hamishspence]

Firstly, why we should presuming Demilich is actually have any Epic levels?See?
The "any lich"!
IMHO, "any" means any.
For all we know, Krilla Darkhand - Female goblin lich adept 11 from Libris Mortis - may turn into a Demilich too, without taking any extra levels

Problem is, to become a demilich, one must craft soul gems, and those are hard to make - apparently, only 21st+ level sorcerers, wizards, and clerics can make them:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm

Demiliches also have eight soul gems, each of which acts like a phylactery in its own right. If all the soul gems, as well as the demilich’s phylactery, are not destroyed after a demilich is downed, the demilich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death. The soul gems also allow the demilich to use its most devastating ability, trap the soul (see above). Each demilich must make its own soul gems, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level. Each soul gem costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. Soul gems appear as egg-shaped gems of wondrous quality. They are always incorporated directly into the concentrated form of the demilich.

[ShurikVch]

Problem is...Small hint: Ring of Three Wishes is way cheaper than 120000 gp...

Also, I hate the presumption of inability for casters from different classes to become Demilich. I mean - come on, no Bard Demilich? Really?!

[hamishspence]

Why would the ring override "A demilich must make its own soul gems" though?

I would agree though that it should be "21st level caster" rather than "member of these three casting classes"

[ShurikVch]

Why would the ring override "A demilich must make its own soul gems" though?Because she would make them - by using the Ring?

[hamishspence]

That might not "count" - you didn't craft them - you simply wished for one and the spell brought it to you.

Given that, for nonmagical items, Wish is capped at 25,000 gp, IMO wishing for 120,000 gp of magical item is "greater effects" which can and should be twisted.



So, if you wish for a soul gem - you get a soul gem, from another demilich, which is useless to you because you didn't make it yourself. You also now have the other demilich angry at you.

Similar principle would apply to a regular caster with no Craft Wondrous Item feat who has found (or stolen) a Ring of Wishes and want to become a regular Lich - they can't wish up a Phylactery bonded to them, to get around the crafting requirements - that's not what Wish is supposed to be used for - it makes the spell too powerful.

[Caudex Capite]

Demilich is a very powerful template that adds strong abilities to a full caster. Between demilich and lich, it has CR+8 relative to the base creature, so a 21st level demilich ought to be roughly the same difficulty for a party to overcome as a 29th level untemplated caster of similar optimization. The demilich is also in theory a million or so GP in the hole for crafting the soul gems. I think there's a legitimate argument to be made either way at that point (though with more levels added, I think Demilich might pull ahead). Importantly, nothing a demilich gets is impossible to replicate for an epic caster without the template, thanks to Epic Magic (thank you Ward Seed), and it loses out on some very powerful options from Shapechange shenanigans (since if I'm not mistaken, it loses Magic Immunity if it Shapechanges, since it inherits the line about losing extraordinary special qualities not derived from class levels from Alter Self). Shapechange also gives access to demilich-tier Magic Immunity (and much more) if we're cool with Reserves of Strength breaking the cap entirely, thanks to the obscenely powerful Alter Shape from Hagunemnon (Protean) form.

I guess my point is that while it's ridiculously strong, it needs to be that strong to be competitive with more levels in Epic (because more levels means more Epic Feats and Prestige Class abilities/capstones, some of which are ridiculously good), against which it isn't too imbalanced. And besides, this is Epic 3.5, where balance goes to die and CR barely means anything. By Epic standards, Demilich is unusually well-balanced against the nearest alternatives.

[ShurikVch]

Given that, for nonmagical items, Wish is capped at 25,000 gp, IMO wishing for 120,000 gp of magical item is "greater effects"Well, it's hardly a first time when "magic items are different" - for example, they're able to make their own saving throws, and Adamantine Grappling Hook costs cheaper if magical...


which can and should be twisted.

So, if you wish for a soul gem - you get a soul gem, from another demilich, which is useless to you because you didn't make it yourself. You also now have the other demilich angry at you.Don't get me wrong - I really like the concept of "Fear your wishes"; but there are certain ways to reduce such dangers - both "in-character" and "out-of-character"
For example: if she will use the "add to the powers of an existing magic item" option, how can it suddenly become a "gem from another demilich"?
Also, Krilla is Adept? Which mean - she's, probably, have some patron? So, if the Ring in question was crafted with a Miracle from that patron, then why it should misfire for her?


Similar principle would apply to a regular caster with no Craft Wondrous Item feat who has found (or stolen) a Ring of Wishes and want to become a regular Lich - they can't wish up a Phylactery bonded to them, to get around the crafting requirements - that's not what Wish is supposed to be used forOn the contrary - gaining a template is one of legitimate uses for Wish - according to the Savage Species - and doesn't required anything besides the Wish itself.


- it makes the spell too powerful.3.5 Wish is too powerful regardless

[hamishspence]

gaining a template is one of legitimate uses for Wish - according to the Savage Species - and doesn't required anything besides the Wish itself.


Actually, it states that it falls under "wishing for greater effects" and therefore has substantial risks.

It suggests making a Spellcraft check for every special ability the template has - with a 5% chance to gain the ability for each point by which you exceed the DC of 20.

So, if you get a 28 on your roll, you have a 40% chance of getting the ability.

[magic9mushroom]

Because she would make them - by using the Ring?

Can't use a Ring of Three Wishes to do anything that would increase the XP cost of Wish were you casting it yourself. It's only charged with 5,000 XP per Wish.

Making magic items with Wish costs twice the normal XP cost of making the item plus an additional 5,000 XP. As such, a Ring of Three Wishes isn't capable of creating magic items (unless they have a cost of 0 gp, somehow).

This problem is why Wish-loop tricks use SLA Wish instead of item-granted Wishes. Otherwise it'd simply be a matter of Wishing for more Rings of Three Wishes.

[ShurikVch]

Can't use a Ring of Three Wishes to do anything that would increase the XP cost of Wish were you casting it yourself. It's only charged with 5,000 XP per Wish.

Making magic items with Wish costs twice the normal XP cost of making the item plus an additional 5,000 XP. As such, a Ring of Three Wishes isn't capable of creating magic items (unless they have a cost of 0 gp, somehow).

This problem is why Wish-loop tricks use SLA Wish instead of item-granted Wishes. Otherwise it'd simply be a matter of Wishing for more Rings of Three Wishes.Quote, please!

And don't get me wrong - I'm not saying it's incorrect, I just really want that quote

[magic9mushroom]

Quote, please!

And don't get me wrong - I'm not saying it's incorrect, I just really want that quote

The listed price for a scroll of Wish has a footnote:

"Assumes no material component cost in excess of 10,000 gp and no XP cost in excess of 5,000 XP."

Likewise, the listed price for a scroll of Miracle has a footnote:

"Assumes powerful request but no expensive material components in excess of 100 gp and no additional XP cost."

From the item creation rules:

"In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. For example, a ring of three wishes has a market price of 97,950 gp, which includes 75,000 gp for the extra 15,000 XP that the creator must expend to forge the ring. The ring's base price is only 22,950 gp (the market price minus the extra cost for the XP expenditure). Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item. (You don't have to calculate creation costs for these items. It's done for you.)"

Pages 241, 243 and 283 of the DMG, respectively.


Now, in point of fact, a scroll of Wish charged with enough XP to create a phylactery/soul gem still costs less (76,825 gp) than the phylactery or soul gem itself, and the same is true of most items with a cost between 48,042 and 200,000 gp (the exceptions are items which have XP costs greater than the price would suggest, like a Ring of Three Wishes itself), because XP components aren't marked up as much as base-price XP and therefore the scaling's messed up. But it's an open question whether you can just buy one of those.