Avengers: Endgame

[Bartmanhomer]

The writers better not screw up Avengers Endgame just like they did in Infinity War. I'm really giving Avengers a second chance and the trailers look so depressing. But for everyone sake they better not screw up this movie. :mad:

[Eldan]

What didn't you like about Infinity War? I think it was probably about as good as it was going to get, apart from Thanos' nonsensical motivation. The action was mostly entertaining, they managed to give most of the characters at least some screen time where they did something cool, what else did you expect?

[Florian]

Yeah, Infinity War was quite good, had good writing and pacing, the screen time was evenly balanced, what more do you want?

[Magic_Hat]

The writers better not screw up Avengers Endgame just like they did in Infinity War. I'm really giving Avengers a second chance and the trailers look so depressing. But for everyone sake they better not screw up this movie. :mad:

Wait...another person on this globe hates Infinity War? I thought I was the only one! Have I found my (platonic) soul mate?*

*That came out creepier than it was meant to.


Yeah, Infinity War was quite good, had good writing and pacing, the screen time was evenly balanced, what more do you want?

Maybe because Infinity War is the cinematic equivalent of this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_of_Brian_(Family_Guy)).*

And by the look of things Endgame is gonna be the cinematic equivalent of this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Guy).*

*Don't click the link unless you've seen season 12 of Family Guy or don't care about Family Guy (spoilers).

Seriously though I don't get people. Everything that was "dramatic" in Infinity War is gonna be ctrl+z'd in Endgame. Don't belief me...
What MCU film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man:_Far_From_Home) is coming out right after Endgame?
Wait didn't this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man) die in Infinity War?
And who's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Holland_(actor)) playing him?
So same character portrayed by the actor and said character died...
Again I don't know how you can take this film as anything other than awful when the stakes don't really matter and generic bad guy is gonna get killed.

[Eldan]

Well, yeah. True. But then, did anything ever think anything else? We knew Thanos would kill some heroes, we knew they wouldn't leave anyone dead. We knew from the start that they'd bring those people back. There are ways to create drama without murdering people. *shrug*.

In fact, the *poof* scene was one of the least impactful ones in the movie, as far as I'm concerned. That was more setup for the next movie than anything else.

[Bartmanhomer]

What didn't you like about Infinity War? I think it was probably about as good as it was going to get, apart from Thanos' nonsensical motivation. The action was mostly entertaining, they managed to give most of the characters at least some screen time where they did something cool, what else did you expect?

Uh hello! Thanos won at the end. That the only reason why I didn't like Infinity War. :mad:

[Eldan]

It's a two part movie. IF they had won in part one, what would part two be about? Think of it as the second act climax of one really long movie. Or the midpoint of a TV series.

[Bartmanhomer]

It's a two part movie. IF they had won in part one, what would part two be about? Think of it as the second act climax of one really long movie. Or the midpoint of a TV series.

I suppose you have a good point there. :confused:

[Magic_Hat]

Well, yeah. True. But then, did anything ever think anything else? We knew Thanos would kill some heroes, we knew they wouldn't leave anyone dead. We knew from the start that they'd bring those people back. There are ways to create drama without murdering people. *shrug*.

In fact, the *poof* scene was one of the least impactful ones in the movie, as far as I'm concerned. That was more setup for the next movie than anything else.

How about some permanency? How about the theme of somethings can't be undone. Death or otherwise some actions/events have never-ending consequences. What's the theme of these two Avengers films that people in the real world can use: find 6 godly macguffins that can do literally everything and you can do literally everything. That or billion dollar movie studios are to cowardly to try anything new or even slightly controversial less it disrupt the masses and not make a million billion dollars.

I mean if you permanently kill off any of these characters that could be impactful and make people appreciate what they have. But if you did that Marvel/Disney couldn't make millions in toy sales. What? You thought movies where a story telling medium and not 2 hour long commercials? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgRFQJCHcPw)


Uh hello! Thanos won at the end. That the only reason why I didn't like Infinity War. :mad:

Yeah. A movie where the bad guy wins - those are always trash. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empire_Strikes_Back)*

*Yeah, that's sarcasm because it's had to clarify that with just text and not audible speech.

[Eldan]

How about some permanency? How about the theme of somethings can't be undone. Death or otherwise some actions/events have never-ending consequences. What's the theme of these two Avengers films that people in the real world can use: find 6 godly macguffins that can do literally everything and you can do literally everything. That or billion dollar movie studios are to cowardly to try anything new or even slightly controversial less it disrupt the masses and not make a million billion dollars.

I mean if you permanently kill off any of these characters that could be impactful and make people appreciate what they have. But if you did that Marvel/Disney couldn't make millions in toy sales. What? You thought movies where a story telling medium and not 2 hour long commercials? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgRFQJCHcPw)

Absolutely. But is that what you expect from Marvel movies? I'd stand up and applaud them if they decided to leave some of those characters dead. And not just the side ones, some of the main ones. But they won't, and I don't expect them to. The entire Marvel cinematic universe is at heart a stack of fluffy action-comedies. Just very well made ones.

[Z3ro]

Yeah. A movie where the bad guy wins - those are always trash. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empire_Strikes_Back)*

*Yeah, that's sarcasm because it's had to clarify that with just text and not audible speech.

I'm not going to touch your take on the commercialism of movies, but really? Empire Strikes Back is your example of a movie where the bad guys win? They didn't win; their main goal the entire film was capture Luke, which they failed to do. The good guys are mounting a rescue, and we know there's another film, which means even that little bit of drama will be undone at the beginning of the next film. Heck, the only real consequence of Luke's encounter with Vader, getting his hand cut off, gets undone the very next scene!

I don't really see how the bad guys won this won; at best, they managed to put the good guys in a bad spot, but they won nothing. The rebels still have a fleet and all the good guys are still alive. Heck, we don't even get to see a single rebel ship destroyed! Hardly a rousing success for the bad guys.

[Magic_Hat]

Heck, the only real consequence of Luke's encounter with Vader, getting his hand cut off, gets undone the very next scene!

Yeah that, and you know the revelation he's been lied to about his father and he has a direct relation to one of the most evil people in the galaxy. You know - subtext and character development. Things the protagonist has to reflect on that make fights and conflict more interesting so he doesn't just rush in like a video game character and is invincible.


I don't really see how the bad guys won this won; at best, they managed to put the good guys in a bad spot, but they won nothing.

Discovering and destroying their base on Hoth. Plus capturing Solo and humiliating and physically mutilating Luke - the two guys responsible for the destruction of the Death Star.


The rebels still have a fleet and all the good guys are still alive.

Yeah sans the ones that got killed when the Hoth base was discovered.

[Clertar]

I don't really see how the bad guys won this won; at best, they managed to put the good guys in a bad spot, but they won nothing. The rebels still have a fleet and all the good guys are still alive. Heck, we don't even get to see a single rebel ship destroyed! Hardly a rousing success for the bad guys.

To the extent that we consider the rebels won in Star Wars, the Empire won in Empire Strikes Back.

[Z3ro]

Yeah that, and you know the revelation he's been lied to about his father and he has a direct relation to one of the most evil people in the galaxy. You know - subtext and character development. Things the protagonist has to reflect on that make fights and conflict more interesting so he doesn't just rush in like a video game character and is invincible.


Didn't say there wasn't character development; of course there was. Only disputing your argument that they lost.



Discovering and destroying their base on Hoth. Plus capturing Solo and humiliating and physically mutilating Luke - the two guys responsible for the destruction of the Death Star.

Well, I suppose physical humiliation is bad, but hardly a big deal in the lose column. The mutilation is immediately undone, making it less of a problem than the Thanos snap.



Yeah sans the ones that got killed when the Hoth base was discovered.

I mean, maybe, but we're not really shown much of that. They lose a battle, and we can imagine the loses, but it seems like they're fully capable of fighting in the next movie, so they couldn't have been that bad.


To the extent that we consider the rebels won in Star Wars, the Empire won in Empire Strikes Back.

Maybe, but I don't know. A main villain was killed in New Hope, something that didn't happen to the rebels in Empire. Plus they achieved their goal in the movie, destroy the Death Star. The empire's goals in Empire were 1) wipe out the rebellion 2) capture Skywalker. They accomplished neither.

[Maryring]

What didn't you like about Infinity War? I think it was probably about as good as it was going to get, apart from Thanos' nonsensical motivation. The action was mostly entertaining, they managed to give most of the characters at least some screen time where they did something cool, what else did you expect?

Not making characters I used to like so utterly unlikeable I might not want to visit their franchise again in the future? (Hi Quill)

Bruce/Hulk being anything more than a joke?

Properly presenting the Hulk so he doesn't seem like a sulky kid who refuses to play because he lost?

Drama that didn't feel pointless or artificial, like all the problems around getting Thor's new hammer reforged? Restarting the forge should be enough. We don't need to stretch it out with a no stakes Thor in a sunbeam, or a randomly missing haft.

The heroes not being stupid to bring Gamora to Thanos rather than as far away from him as possible when she's the only source of the Soul Stone?

In fact everything around Gamora and the soulstone is really bad. From her pointless initial crypticness, to her demanding Quill shoot her, which of course doesn't work, to moments later doing a 180 because of Nebula, to Thanos apparentlyloving her, which is just a painful cliche for the sake of a cliche that doesn't fit with anything seen earlier.

Everything in Wakanda not being a terrible pile of characterization garbage? To mention a few. The shilling of Shuri just made her unlikeable, and everything around Vision's Mind Stone removal, because Cap saying that they "don't trade lives" fall completely flat when they are more than happy to trade the lives of Wakandan redshirts just to save the named character.

And speaking about the destruction of the stones. By raising that as an option, it just makes it clear that everyone is an idiot bending over backwards to let Thanos win. Just make the stones practically indestructible and you don't make everyone look like selfish fools for not trying.

Long story short. I expected plenty more. As is, I'm just left disliking almost everyone in the MCU.

[Dragonus45]

Uh hello! Thanos won at the end. That the only reason why I didn't like Infinity War. :mad:

To be fair the comic they are adapting literally opens up with Thanos doing The Snap and is about the people in the aftermath handling the changes.

[Bartmanhomer]

To be fair the comic they are adapting literally opens up with Thanos doing The Snap and is about the people in the aftermath handling the changes.

I understand that but I just wish they wouldn't copied every thing in the comics. It would be a very different. But you and everyone else better be right about this movie for everyone sake. I'm not going to waste my money for an IMAX version even if the IMAX version was on 3D to see the writers give us the middle finger just to screw up another crappy ending. :mad:

[Dragonus45]

I understand that but I just wish they wouldn't copied every thing in the comics. It would be a very different. But you and everyone else better be right about this movie for everyone sake. I'm not going to waste my money for an IMAX version even if the IMAX version was on 3D to see the writers give us the middle finger just to screw up another crappy ending. :mad:

They didn’t copy everything from the comics, really they barely copied anything from the arc other then the basic premise and a few iconic shots like the Silver Surfer landing in the Sanctum Sanctorum. They even changed the big motivation the Thanos has which totally changes the philosophical underpinnings of the plot. If they adapted any less of the story then at that point it would literally not even be an adaptation.

[Bartmanhomer]

They didn’t copy everything from the comics, really they barely copied anything from the arc other then the basic premise and a few iconic shots like the Silver Surfer landing in the Sanctum Sanctorum. They even changed the big motivation the Thanos has which totally changes the philosophical underpinnings of the plot. If they adapted any less of the story then at that point it would literally not even be an adaptation.Ok. I feel so much better now that you mentioned it. :smile:

[GloatingSwine]

To be fair the comic they are adapting literally opens up with Thanos doing The Snap and is about the people in the aftermath handling the changes.

Not quite.

The comic starts with him already having the Infinity Gems, and him doing various things with them to impress Death.

The actual finger snap is about 1/3-1/2 of the way through the story when he remembers that that was why he gathered the gems in the first place.

Some elements of the movie are from the comic (Cap resisting being squashed, almost getting the gauntlet off and failing, though in the comic it was Surfer who tried it and he just rolled a 1 and missed), and the snap and various heroes and people disappearing (including the consequential damage of planes crashing etc).

But this is only partway through the story. In the comic it gets really weird from this point when various eternals and celestials start showing up until dad* comes along and takes all the toys away



* The Living Tribunal

[Dragonus45]

Not quite.

The comic starts with him already having the Infinity Gems, and him doing various things with them to impress Death.

The actual finger snap is about 1/3-1/2 of the way through the story when he remembers that that was why he gathered the gems in the first place.

Some elements of the movie are from the comic (Cap resisting being squashed, almost getting the gauntlet off and failing, though in the comic it was Surfer who tried it and he just rolled a 1 and missed), and the snap and various heroes and people disappearing (including the consequential damage of planes crashing etc).

But this is only partway through the story. In the comic it gets really weird from this point when various eternals and celestials start showing up until dad* comes along and takes all the toys away



* The Living Tribunal

I vaguely remember it happening at the end of the first issue, but it has been ages since I read it. God it would be so surreal if they actually tried to pull in the living tribunal and all those other shenanigans for the movie. No way it’s gonna happen, but it would be great.

[Lurkmoar]

I vaguely remember it happening at the end of the first issue, but it has been ages since I read it. God it would be so surreal if they actually tried to pull in the living tribunal and all those other shenanigans for the movie. No way it’s gonna happen, but it would be great.

The Celestials showing up throwing planets at Thanos would be pretty boss.

[Erys]

Uh hello! Thanos won at the end. That the only reason why I didn't like Infinity War. :mad:


I understand that but I just wish they wouldn't copied every thing in the comics. It would be a very different. But you and everyone else better be right about this movie for everyone sake. I'm not going to waste my money for an IMAX version even if the IMAX version was on 3D to see the writers give us the middle finger just to screw up another crappy ending. :mad:

Do you judge all media this way?

If it doesn't end the way you want it is crappy and somehow a personal middle finger to you?

Are you going to hate OOTS if the cost for the heroes winning is for your favorite character(s) dying in a way that their soul is undone; or worse, one of the many other factions (mostly evil) win in the end? Will you just dismiss all of the story leading to that point and consider the entire piece of work trash? Seems kind of shallow to me if your answer is 'yes'.

***

Personally, aside from this being two movies connected together- I am glad it ended that way. It was a nice change from the usual last minute 'hero saves the day' trope seen all to often in movies. But then, I also don't hate a movie just because it didn't do what I wanted it too. So, there is that.

[Bartmanhomer]

Do you judge all media this way?

If it doesn't end the way you want it is crappy and somehow a personal middle finger to you?

Are you going to hate OOTS if the cost for the heroes winning is for your favorite character(s) dying in a way that their soul is undone; or worse, one of the many other factions (mostly evil) win in the end? Will you just dismiss all of the story leading to that point and consider the entire piece of work trash? Seems kind of shallow to me if your answer is 'yes'.

***

Personally, aside from this being two movies connected together- I am glad it ended that way. It was a nice change from the usual last minute 'hero saves the day' trope seen all to often in movies. But then, I also don't hate a movie just because it didn't do what I wanted it too. So, there is that.
Not all media. Also I never read OOTS so I can't vouch an opinion on it.

[Erys]

Not all media. Also I never read OOTS so I can't vouch an opinion on it.

Odd, I would have thought anyone willing to make an account here would also read the comic.

But that does make me curious... what media is an exception to your 'please me or you suck' philosophy?

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm guessing you must absolutely loathe season-end cliffhangars, Bartmanhomer.



...

There are people on the forum that don't read the webcomic that the forum exists because of?

Well, I must confess to being slightly surprised. You learn summat new every day.

I mean, granted, this is arguably the best place now for general D&D stuff once WotC and later enworld (I think) keeled, but...

[Bartmanhomer]

Odd, I would have thought anyone willing to make an account here would also read the comic.

But that does make me curious... what media is an exception to your 'please me or you suck' philosophy?

Anime, Toxic shows (such as Judge Judy.) Reality Shows. That about it.

[DataNinja]

There are people on the forum that don't read the webcomic that the forum exists because of?

It's actually the other way 'round, if I'm remembering my history lessons right. The comic was made to drum up interest and attract people to the forum. Of course, generally people come here for the comic first nowadays, I imagine, but it's clear that the original part of it (RPG discussion) still certainly makes up a huge facet of the population.

I do find it surprising that there are people who don't read the comic much, since it seems to appeal to the same demographic, but, as we have seen, those people do exist.

[Erys]

Anime, Toxic shows (such as Judge Judy.) Reality Shows. That about it.

So, if the bad guy in an anime wins (that you want to lose) that is OK... but not in a live action version of a comic (that was designed to be two parts)?

Interesting.

[Bartmanhomer]

So, if the bad guy in an anime wins (that you want to lose) that is OK... but not in a live action version of a comic (that was designed to be two parts)?

Interesting.

I never say that. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

[Erys]

I never say that. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

Actually, that is exactly what you said.

Recap quotes:


what media is an exception to your 'please me or you suck' philosophy?

Anime, Toxic shows (such as Judge Judy.) Reality Shows. That about it.

But, whatever...

[Dragonus45]

I mean, everyone has their own odd standards that they want to judge media with. It’s hardly worth making a big thing out of it just because it doesn’t make sense to you unless it’s particularly egregiously stupid and/or starts to gain traction as a legitimate criticism. Like the whole “Infity War justifies domestic violence” crowd or the unironic “Thanos was right people.”

[Legato Endless]

Actually, that is exactly what you said.

Recap quotes:


But, whatever...

I think the reason OP said that wasn't because those media were acceptable places for that usage but rather they don't watch those kinds of media at all, considering this followed the comment about Order of the Stick.

Personal bias might be coloring my interpretation here as I'm not a fan of the last two categories either. (Anime is fine)

[Lizard Lord]

Am I the only one that's thinking that although (obviously) they are going to bring back those that died in the snap, not all of the people that survived the snap are going to make it out of Endgame?

[Kitten Champion]

I think the reason OP said that wasn't because those media were acceptable places for that usage but rather they don't watch those kinds of media at all, considering this followed the comment about Order of the Stick.

Personal bias might be coloring my interpretation here as I'm not a fan of the last two categories either. (Anime is fine)

Okay, but isn't that just saying it's never acceptable insofar as the media in question is already viewed intrinsically as poor and beneath you?

It's not actually softening the opinion by providing mitigating circumstances to where it's more acceptable, so much as just reinforcing it with another prejudice.


Am I the only one that's thinking that although (obviously) they are going to bring back those that died in the snap, not all of the people that survived the snap are going to make it out of Endgame?

I would even say it's reasonably likely, given contractual concerns with the aging actors and Disney/Marvel ready to press on with new individual Marvel IPs.

...and ignoring of meta-concerns, it's also the big epic conclusion to their Event movie that most everyone is going to see. If there was ever a stage for a dramatic character death this is it.

[Legato Endless]

Okay, but isn't that just saying it's never acceptable insofar as the media in question is already viewed intrinsically as poor and beneath you?

It's not actually softening the opinion by providing mitigating circumstances to where it's more acceptable, so much as just reinforcing it with another prejudice.

One presumes yes. Clarification doesn't always lead to somewhere more defensible. I just trying to figure why Bartmanhomer felt he'd been misquoted.

I also don't think OPs view is that uncommon among his age group, as I assume he's a lot younger than you or I based on his writing style.

[Rodin]

I would even say it's reasonably likely, given contractual concerns with the aging actors and Disney/Marvel ready to press on with new individual Marvel IPs.

...and ignoring of meta-concerns, it's also the big epic conclusion to their Event movie that most everyone is going to see. If there was ever a stage for a dramatic character death this is it.

The most notable thing here is that all of the original Avengers survived. This allows them to have their big swansong before getting offed in Endgame, or even just retiring the cape.

[Keltest]

The most notable thing here is that all of the original Avengers survived. This allows them to have their big swansong before getting offed in Endgame, or even just retiring the cape.

My bets are that Stark retires, Steve dies, Hawkeye and Black Widow ride off into the sunset (not necessarily together), Hulk goes on Hulking, and Thor figures out some way to bring back the Asgardian refugees and continues to lead them, because theres no way theyre just completely shutting them down like that.

[Darth Ultron]

[SPOILER=All the spoilers]

Long story short. I expected plenty more. As is, I'm just left disliking almost everyone in the MCU.

The big problem is they really needed at least three more movies BEFORE Infinity War. Like:

Avengers:Zodiac-This would be the ''fix'' civil war movie. Everyone becomes friends again. Everyone meets everyone else, like Spider Man and Doc Strange....and then you have the Zodiac as villains.

Thantos: Dark Awakening(or really Infinity Gauntlet)-A straightforward Thantos movie with history and details.

Guardians of the Galaxy 3:Starlost- THIS movie ramps up Thantos doing things in the modern day. The guardians fight mostly his minions, and travel to Earth and meet some Avengers/others.

Then, get to Avengers Infinity War.


My bets are that Stark retires, Steve dies, Hawkeye and Black Widow ride off into the sunset (not necessarily together), Hulk goes on Hulking, and Thor figures out some way to bring back the Asgardian refugees and continues to lead them, because theres no way theyre just completely shutting them down like that.

I bet both cap and iron man die...maybe get a great ''well, for a moment I thought we were in trouble" ending. Hawkeye and Widow likely get injured and have to retire. Hulk wanders away. Thor either loses his power or dies or becomes king of Asgard.

The point is they MUST get rid of the old plain male Marvel heroes to make room for all the multi colored and gender ones to comes in and take their names and places. So we get Urban America, Iron Girl, Thor Girl, Blacker Widow, She Hulk(or, er, the red lady Hulk) and Echo(not Hawkeye).

[Keltest]

I bet both cap and iron man die...maybe get a great ''well, for a moment I thought we were in trouble" ending. Hawkeye and Widow likely get injured and have to retire. Hulk wanders away. Thor either loses his power or dies or becomes king of Asgard.

The point is they MUST get rid of the old plain male Marvel heroes to make room for all the multi colored and gender ones to comes in and take their names and places. So we get Urban America, Iron Girl, Thor Girl, Blacker Widow, She Hulk(or, er, the red lady Hulk) and Echo(not Hawkeye).

They've been playing up Tony and Pepper's relationship ups and downs too much I think to actually completely off him like that. Let him finally calm down, get over his PTSD and retire from being Iron Man.

[GloatingSwine]

They've been playing up Tony and Pepper's relationship ups and downs too much I think to actually completely off him like that. Let him finally calm down, get over his PTSD and retire from being Iron Man.

On the other hand, RDJ is going to be increasingly expensive to use, and a casting call for "off-brand replacement RDJ" is not going to get them very far so recasting is a dead end.

(The reality of actors getting older and the primacy of the movies is going to be the thing that breaks the fifty years of stasis Marvel Comics have been in roughly since the introduction of Franklin Richards, who has been variously five to eight years old since about 1972)

[Keltest]

On the other hand, RDJ is going to be increasingly expensive to use, and a casting call for "off-brand replacement RDJ" is not going to get them very far so recasting is a dead end.

(The reality of actors getting older and the primacy of the movies is going to be the thing that breaks the fifty years of stasis Marvel Comics have been in roughly since the introduction of Franklin Richards, who has been variously five to eight years old since about 1972)

Is there some reason that retirement rather than death means they need to continue having him in films?

[GloatingSwine]

Is there some reason that retirement rather than death means they need to continue having him in films?

I'm pretty sure even death wouldn't stop him showing up in cameos.

I do expect at least one or two of the originals to bite it. Probably Cap and Iron Man. Chris Evans previously said he wanted to move into directing and contracts are ending. (Also why they're likely to do a Black Widow movie sooner rather than later, so they can do it before they have to renegotiate with Scarlett Johansen).

I expect they'll keep Thor around because they just figured out what to do with him. I wouldn't be surprised if he migrates to the Guardians of the Galaxy though.

Nobody has ever cared about Hawkeye, so he's either for the chop or retiring for real.

Hulk will stay as a supporting character unless they get the full rights back from Universal.

[Lizard Lord]

The thing is a real superhero doesn't stay retired when the entire planet Earth is in danger and there is bound to be at least one moment where it will look like the New Avengers are about to lose. Heck both Tony and Clint had already retired and it didn't stick then either.

I suppose Thor could retire as King of Asgard as long as he does so away from Earth. Even if there are intergalactic threats the galaxy is a big place and it is reasonable that they would just not run into Thor's domain.


Also I cared about Hawkeye (at least since Age of Ultron. I know its not exactly everyone's favorite Avengers movie, but I liked what it did with his character at the very least.) Remember that Infinity War was the only Avengers movie where Hawkeye didn't fight alongside the others and look what happened. :smallbiggrin:

[GloatingSwine]

The thing is a real superhero doesn't stay retired

Yeah, but real actors do, and for a series this big a recast will always be the lesser alternative.

Nobody who is serious about wanting a career in film is going to raise their hand to being the Brand Ecch version of Robert Downey Jr.

It just isn't going to happen.

When they retire, or Disney stops wanting to pay them all that much, their characters are over in film.

And that's no problem, because third tier nobodies like Black Panther and actual internet joke characters like Aquaman are both billion dollar pulls now.

[Erloas]

I don't know... they're re-booting Pirates without Jonny Depp so I'm going to say any casting choices are possible.

I'm also going to say that just because a character is killed off in the next movie doesn't mean that they're never going to have them in another movie. Alternate realties, branching timelines, and one-off stories are all common in comics and have all happened in various iterations of Marvel movies already.

[Darth Ultron]

I'm pretty sure even death wouldn't stop him showing up in cameos.

It's not like ''death" means anything in a Comic...or Comic book based movie. Even if they do ''really" kill of Tony for ''real" he can always come back as a memory, vision, AI or Infinity Ghost.

And there is always CGI characters......

The point is to more remove them from the Active MCU. But ''retire" does not really work so well. Because if you have Avengers: Doomsday in 2020 with the Earth about to blow up it's just dumb to say ''oh Iron Man is right over there on the beach with his mark 9000 super-godforce armor, but we won't ask him for help as he is retired....well will just have to hope Iron Gender Neutral Sue Person can save the day.

Just like they did in the comics, Marvel wants to make all it's characters 'cool, new, hip, young..........and different." And to do that, they need to get rid of the old ones.

And, see, current Marvel does not have the will and ability to think up of new ideas. So like they want to make ''character X", the only think they can think of is ''kill Iron Man" and then slap the Iron Person label on character x. It's simply too hard for them to just ''make" a new character.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't know... they're re-booting Pirates without Jonny Depp so I'm going to say any casting choices are possible.

I'm also going to say that just because a character is killed off in the next movie doesn't mean that they're never going to have them in another movie. Alternate realties, branching timelines, and one-off stories are all common in comics and have all happened in various iterations of Marvel movies already.

Are they recasting Jack Sparrow, or just making a Pirates movie without him? We're talking about something like the former - no actor could ever be more than Discount Jack Sparrow with how completely Johnny Depp has defined the character.

[Erloas]

Are they recasting Jack Sparrow, or just making a Pirates movie without him? We're talking about something like the former - no actor could ever be more than Discount Jack Sparrow with how completely Johnny Depp has defined the character.

Yeah, it just isn't Pirates without him. I understand the issues with his personal life, and Disney not wanting to retire a 5+billion dollar franchise, but I'm just not sure it will be "Pirates" rather than "some other movie with a pirate theme"


As for who would be taking over for Johnny Depp as Captain Jack Sparrow in the Pirates of the Caribbean reboot, it is believed that Redd, the current star of the Disneyland and Disney World ride will take the lead. Redd is the new pirate who took over the controversial wench auction scene, which was recently changed. Redd has been incorporated into the park as well, and has become a popular cast member wandering amongst selfie-hungry tourists. It's pretty clear that Disney has some other plans for Redd that go beyond the ride.

[Dragonus45]

Really the whole franchise since the first movie has been a slow descent downhill and that last movie was phoned in to whole new levels for everyone involved. I’m more surprised to hear they are making a new Pirates movie at all let alone one without Sparrow.

[Keltest]

Really the whole franchise since the first movie has been a slow descent downhill and that last movie was phoned in to whole new levels for everyone involved. I’m more surprised to hear they are making a new Pirates movie at all let alone one without Sparrow.

Who knows? Maybe without sparrow, they'll have to actually come up with something clever for the movie to be about?

[ben-zayb]

In the event that some OG Avengers survive but are left in a combat-incapable capacity (aka Stark will most likely have to die), each future Marvel movie can have a cameo of one of them. Most of phase 4 movies going forward won't have a Stan Lee cameo for obvious reasons, so this could be somewhat a respectful continuation of tradition.

[Velaryon]

I think the three most likely characters to die (in no particular order) are Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor. Those are the three most expensive contracts, and Chris Evans at least has expressed interest in moving on to other projects.

Plus, all three characters have been replaced in their roles at various times in the comics. Depending on how hard Marvel wants to keep one of these franchises around, they could bring in some of the legacy characters. Heck, haven't Bucky Barnes and Sam Wilson both been Captain America at one time or another?

I sincerely doubt we'll get lady Thor, since Natalie Portman seems to be done with the franchise and I don't see them recasting the role of Jane Foster. While they have recast roles in the past, the most prominent is probably War Machine who is like a C-tier hero even in the MCU, and less than that in the comics.

If there's a full recast and reboot, I don't think it will happen until the current continuity begins to run out of steam, and there's no sign of that so far. If anything, they'll just shift focus to the more recent heroes, and start introducing some of the ones they've recently got back from Fox.

[Erloas]

I think the three most likely characters to die (in no particular order) are Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor. Those are the three most expensive contracts, and Chris Evans at least has expressed interest in moving on to other projects.
The cost of the contract only really matters if the films don't make a lot. Paying your top actor/actress $5M instead of $25M doesn't really help your bottom line if your movie makes $250M instead of $700M.


Of all the characters, I think Thor has the most potential for story. Any sort of "Chronicles of Thor" type moves could cover any point in his past, and unless it directly ties into the very recent history of the Earth, about their only limit on what can happen is that Thor and other main characters (Odin, Loki, etc) can't die in those.

We can also see from the most recent Spider Man movie, they don't really have any issues with alternate universes. Logan was also not really in the same universe as the other X-Men movies either, or at least most things seem to indicate that it was it's own unique time-line.

[Kitten Champion]

As much as a Pirates of the Caribbean reboot sounds like tiresome Hollywood grasping at successful IPs with their dying breath, if they genuinely move past the Depp-era of increasingly cartoonish antics and all the surprisingly heavy PotC continuity back to just trying to produce a classic pirate adventure... I wouldn't mind. Those kinds of movies can have a solid timeless quality to them when done well and the heart of the first PotC's success was it delivering that kind of anachronistic Hollywood experience. Rather than continue banking on Depp's quirky acting to cover over everything - which obviously didn't add up to much for Disney's Lone Ranger - they can go back to that initial spark of inspiration and make just a fun pirate movie.

I find it... interesting, I guess, that they're looking at the actual PotC park attraction to shop around ideas for the movie. I'm not sure how well those mediums cross over between one another.

[Erloas]

I find it... interesting, I guess, that they're looking at the actual PotC park attraction to shop around ideas for the movie. I'm not sure how well those mediums cross over between one another.

From what I understand, the first movie was simply based on the ride at the park and the story was just made up from that general theme. I'm not sure how much is clear in the part I quoted, but it was my understanding that they added the Redd character to the park ride fairly recently, assumedly in anticipation of the new movie. So people are assuming she'll be the new main character, but I don't think there is anything official yet.

[The Glyphstone]

From what I understand, the first movie was simply based on the ride at the park and the story was just made up from that general theme. I'm not sure how much is clear in the part I quoted, but it was my understanding that they added the Redd character to the park ride fairly recently, assumedly in anticipation of the new movie. So people are assuming she'll be the new main character, but I don't think there is anything official yet.

If it's the Redd I remember/have read about, she was there from the beginning as the 'main attraction' in the 'wench auction' that they've rebuilt/removed. She was redesigned to be a pirate herself in the process, either before or after the auction scene got reworked. Caveat that is is just based on stuff I'm reading online and may be garbled/misremembered/incorrect.

[Starwulf]

I'm guessing you must absolutely loathe season-end cliffhangars, Bartmanhomer.



...

There are people on the forum that don't read the webcomic that the forum exists because of?

Well, I must confess to being slightly surprised. You learn summat new every day.

I mean, granted, this is arguably the best place now for general D&D stuff once WotC and later enworld (I think) keeled, but...

I read the comic now, but I was originally brought over to this forum from the old bethesda "General Discussions" forum when a member there that was also a member here started a RP game that sounded kinda fun(even if I knew virtually nothing about the premise, which is Star Wars). It took more than year(maybe even 2-3) before I checked out the comic, wasn't a fan of the art style to begin with. Eventually I gave it 100 pages to convince me it was worth reading, and was definitely hooked by the end of it.

[Battleship789]

It's actually the other way 'round, if I'm remembering my history lessons right. The comic was made to drum up interest and attract people to the forum. Of course, generally people come here for the comic first nowadays, I imagine, but it's clear that the original part of it (RPG discussion) still certainly makes up a huge facet of the population.

I do find it surprising that there are people who don't read the comic much, since it seems to appeal to the same demographic, but, as we have seen, those people do exist.

Close but not quite. The comic was created to spark interest into Rich's gaming articles. (Source, first OotS book forward.) I doubt many of the people on the forum even know they exist, let alone have read them.

[The Glyphstone]

Im still sad he will never finish his series on how to build a setting step by step.

[ben-zayb]

Im still sad he will never finish his series on how to build a setting step by step.
HEY! History isn't over yet, mister!!

[DataNinja]

Close but not quite. The comic was created to spark interest into Rich's gaming articles. (Source, first OotS book forward.) I doubt many of the people on the forum even know they exist, let alone have read them.

Ah, oops. I didn't realize the gaming articles were the reason for the comic. I did know that the comic rather overtook them in importance (due to they not having been completed, which is a shame), but I didn't realize that the goal was to draw attention to them specifically, rather than the articles also being for the forum.

[Sholos]

The point is they MUST get rid of the old plain male Marvel heroes to make room for all the multi colored and gender ones to comes in and take their names and places. So we get Urban America, Iron Girl, Thor Girl, Blacker Widow, She Hulk(or, er, the red lady Hulk) and Echo(not Hawkeye).

Never thought I'd see the day when someone could refer to a non-white person as "colored" and get away with it on here.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

"Urban" America. Um, wow. Yikes.

Not to mention that most of the rest of the list boggles me. By a black Black Widow, do you mean Black Widow 2099, the serial killer? Since when has Echo been Hawkeye-affiliated, particularly when there's literally only one other Hawkeye in the comics?

That said, I'm excited to see legacy characters step up. It's a way of acknowledging the influence of the old heroes, it lets the universe retire characters over time instead of keeping them around until their storylines bloat into incomprehensibility, and it's realistic to imagine that new heroes will take on the mantles of old heroes. Not to mention that it's just plain cool.

So yeah, gimme those legacy heroes.

[lowfyr01]

"Urban" America. Um, wow. Yikes.

Not to mention that most of the rest of the list boggles me. By a black Black Widow, do you mean Black Widow 2099, the serial killer? Since when has Echo been Hawkeye-affiliated, particularly when there's literally only one other Hawkeye in the comics?

That said, I'm excited to see legacy characters step up. It's a way of acknowledging the influence of the old heroes, it lets the universe retire characters over time instead of keeping them around until their storylines bloat into incomprehensibility, and it's realistic to imagine that new heroes will take on the mantles of old heroes. Not to mention that it's just plain cool.

So yeah, gimme those legacy heroes.

Now i just want to see Kate Bishop in the MCU just to mess with Darth Ultron. But that someone still pulls this replacement stupidity without irony boggles the mind.
And I would like to see legacy characters during the next phase. I mean Bucky as a Cap replacement would not really be a surprise.

Would work better than a reboot. I mean who could replace RD or Chris Evans and would not have an impossible work cut out for him for example?

[Lizard Lord]

I am all for the MCU continuing on with Legacy characters. It would make it feel like a living breathing Universe that actually ages alongside our own. To me that is an exciting prospect and I can't off any other works of fiction where that was done.

[The Glyphstone]

I am all for the MCU continuing on with Legacy characters. It would make it feel like a living breathing Universe that actually ages alongside our own. To me that is an exciting prospect and I can't off any other works of fiction where that was done.

IIRC, the Judge Dredd comics have never gone through any reboots or resets. Dredd has aged in real-time ever since his debut in 1977 (in-comic year 2099).

[HMS Invincible]

Now i just want to see Kate Bishop in the MCU just to mess with Darth Ultron. But that someone still pulls this replacement stupidity without irony boggles the mind.
And I would like to see legacy characters during the next phase. I mean Bucky as a Cap replacement would not really be a surprise.

Would work better than a reboot. I mean who could replace RD or Chris Evans and would not have an impossible work cut out for him for example?
Anything that isn't manly man sleeping with all the babes would troll him.
Isn't marvel already telegraphing what the replacements are? War machine, Bucky, black panther, falcon, spider, vision, witch, marvel (if she makes enough $) or are we talking about far future, where there current crop is too old? Would the trend even last that long?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Yeah, Infinity War was quite good, had good writing and pacing, the screen time was evenly balanced, what more do you want?

A story that's not just people losing battle after battle. Good stories have payoff. Infinity War had some cool pieces of payoff, like Banner Hulkbustering out, that was clever. But overall there wasn't nearly enough of that kind of stuff. It was a lot like watching the theatrical cut of Alien 3 (or Star Wars episode 8, or The Matrix Reloaded), if Alien 3 included a post credits scene that instead of the usual cool teaser or joke went out of its way to kill off another fan favorite character in such a way that they had no way to fight back, that didn't look awesome just depressing, and that nobody would believe they were really going to stay dead so it was just pointlessly keeping characters out of the next movie, probably the final movie with this cast.

It might all become worth it when viewing Infinity War together with Endgame, together it could be the epic of the decade. But as a standalone movie, I did not have a good time viewing it.

[Jan Mattys]

A story that's not just people losing battle after battle. Good stories have payoff. Infinity War had some cool pieces of payoff, like Banner Hulkbustering out, that was clever. But overall there wasn't nearly enough of that kind of stuff. It was a lot like watching the theatrical cut of Alien 3 (or Star Wars episode 8, or The Matrix Reloaded), if Alien 3 included a post credits scene that instead of the usual cool teaser or joke went out of its way to kill off another fan favorite character in such a way that they had no way to fight back, that didn't look awesome just depressing, and that nobody would believe they were really going to stay dead so it was just pointlessly keeping characters out of the next movie, probably the final movie with this cast.

It might all become worth it when viewing Infinity War together with Endgame, together it could be the epic of the decade. But as a standalone movie, I did not have a good time viewing it.

DUH.
That was literally part 1 of 2.
Anyone looking at Infinity War as a standalone movie is actively judging a rock by its ability to swim.
Seriously, you can judge it by its flow, by its merits of keeping you on your seat, or by the execution of its cliffhanger... but not by its ability to stand in a vacuum: it uses characters from an established universe, it relies on connections and feelings whose roots were laid two-three-even five movies before... and it was marketed as part one of two.
You are asking a Horse "why aren't you more of a lion" and when it neighs back, you are disappointed.

[Erys]

I am all for the MCU continuing on with Legacy characters. It would make it feel like a living breathing Universe that actually ages alongside our own. To me that is an exciting prospect and I can't off any other works of fiction where that was done.

This is more than likely what Disney will do too.

I doubt anyone will be dead-dead by the end of End Game; but a few will 'retire' and likely make cameos to establish new blood in their place.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

DUH.
That was literally part 1 of 2.
Anyone looking at Infinity War as a standalone movie is actively judging a rock by its ability to swim.
Seriously, you can judge it by its flow, by its merits of keeping you on your seat, or by the execution of its cliffhanger... but not by its ability to stand in a vacuum: it uses characters from an established universe, it relies on connections and feelings whose roots were laid two-three-even five movies before... and it was marketed as part one of two.
You are asking a Horse "why aren't you more of a lion" and when it neighs back, you are disappointed.

I disagree. If it was meant to be enjoyable only back to back they should have released it as a four to six hour double feature or something. These were released a year apart, as two separate movies with two separate titles. There needs to be stuff I enjoy in the first movie. Stuff people enjoy consists of setup and payoff. It's like a comedian telling only the start of jokes and telling you to come to his show next year to hear the punchlines. Even TV series don't get out from under that. A good series won't be just buildup to the season finale, it will also contain smaller arcs where the heroes can have victories. A series that doesn't do that is confusing, not exciting. I feel like a lot of two part movies don't balance this well enough, Infinity War among them. What I expect them to do is like a comedian telling a bunch of full jokes, and then next year he tells more of them while building off the jokes he told this year. The two parter construction serves to make the second part better, not to make the first part worse. Look at the Lord of the Rings movies (or books), even the first one that ends on "so we all agree we're actually going to do this" does not feel like setup without payoff, there's a lot in that movie to actually enjoy like the successful battle against the Nazgûl. Harry Potter was always meant to be a seven part series, and those are enjoyable as separate entities. (I haven't seen part 7.1, so no opinion on that specifically.) And it really doesn't take a lot, usually. I gave Alien 3 as an example (even though it's not a part 1 of x). The theatrical cut is just the protagonists losing until the bittersweet semi-victory in the end. Not enough payoff. The director's cut adds a single succes in the middle. It makes a world of difference. When I watched Infinity War, it felt like they hadn't added enough to make that difference.

[Erys]

I disagree. If it was meant to be enjoyable only back to back they should have released it as a four to six hour double feature or something. These were released a year apart, as two separate movies with two separate titles. There needs to be stuff I enjoy in the first movie. Stuff people enjoy consists of setup and payoff. It's like a comedian telling only the start of jokes and telling you to come to his show next year to hear the punchlines. Even TV series don't get out from under that. A good series won't be just buildup to the season finale, it will also contain smaller arcs where the heroes can have victories. A series that doesn't do that is confusing, not exciting. I feel like a lot of two part movies don't balance this well enough, Infinity War among them. What I expect them to do is like a comedian telling a bunch of full jokes, and then next year he tells more of them while building off the jokes he told this year. The two parter construction serves to make the second part better, not to make the first part worse. Look at the Lord of the Rings movies (or books), even the first one that ends on "so we all agree we're actually going to do this" does not feel like setup without payoff, there's a lot in that movie to actually enjoy like the successful battle against the Nazgûl. Harry Potter was always meant to be a seven part series, and those are enjoyable as separate entities. (I haven't seen part 7.1, so no opinion on that specifically.) And it really doesn't take a lot, usually. I gave Alien 3 as an example (even though it's not a part 1 of x). The theatrical cut is just the protagonists losing until the bittersweet semi-victory in the end. Not enough payoff. The director's cut adds a single succes in the middle. It makes a world of difference. When I watched Infinity War, it felt like they hadn't added enough to make that difference.

Good thing you didn't see Empire Strikes Back when released...

Sheesh.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Good thing you didn't see Empire Strikes Back when released...

Sheesh.

The Empire Strikes Back ends on a huge climax, a big duel going back and forth followed by a dramatic reveal, and then followed by a quick but dramatic escape. It's kind of famous for that and it's arguably the moment that made the whole franchise. There's an element in there of the good guys losing, but it's not the same as the bad guy just walzing through them to take what he wants after which they all drop dead rather anticlimactically. Empire did the being part one of two thing right.

These things differ from person to person, the movie impacts you differently than me, but I didn't like Infinity War that well, and this is why.

[Erloas]

Yeah, I'm going to have to go with the "you've got wrong expectations, not the movie was wrong" people.

There are quite a few long running series where a season finale doesn't have a sense of closure. That is what a cliffhanger is, and they're pretty common. I also don't really feel the "they killed off all these characters, even some favorites in a post-credits teaser" is really fitting. They temporarily removed them sure, but none of them really felt like deaths. The movie really didn't do much at all to make any of the deaths feel like a real death, other than Vision, he seems to be actually dead.

It also isn't as if this is a first movie. It would be one thing if a new IP that wasn't established tried to do a big cliffhanger, but at this point the MCU has 18 other movies developing the characters, setting, and story. Endgame wouldn't make any sense as a stand alone movie no matter what. Trying to judge it as one is a personal failure, not a failure of the movie. It would be like going into season 4 of some big show and complaining that nothing makes sense and then complaining again when the season ends without any major closure when they've already said the story is going to run 6 seasons.

I also believe making a 6 hour long movie doesn't make any sense either. From a financial standpoint it wouldn't make any sense for the company to do. As a consumer I don't want to sit through a movie that long either. Also as a consumer I've already bought into the idea that this is a long build story.

[Aotrs Commander]

I don't particularly recall too many people moaning about Deathly Hallows part one or, I dunno, either Fellowship of the Ring or The Two Towers not particularly having closure - Avengers 3+4 is basically the same thing; hell, it's an adapition same as they are.


I don't think the comparison to a season-finale cliffhnagr is quite right - it's more like complaining that the penultimate episode of a season ends on a cliffhangar.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I don't particularly recall too many people moaning about Deathly Hallows part one or, I dunno, either Fellowship of the Ring or The Two Towers not particularly having closure - Avengers 3+4 is basically the same thing; hell, it's an adapition same as they are.

For why I thought Lord of the Rings did it better, see my big post above the Empire Strikes Back one.

(Also, I'm fine with (just) the penultimate episode of a series lacking payoff, it's just a week until the next part comes out, the episodes are shorter so I don't feel like I just watched several hours of people losing, together the two parts line up into a nice movie length feature that can actually be watched as such and they're just trying to be a little different from the rest if the season. It's not the same thing as movies, to me. An interesting middle ground case study would be a televized miniseries with 2 or 3 one to one and a half hour episodes, those could probably piss me off by getting the balance wrong enough.)

[Tyndmyr]

I disagree. If it was meant to be enjoyable only back to back they should have released it as a four to six hour double feature or something. These were released a year apart, as two separate movies with two separate titles.

They're 20 movies into a series, and have got the pacing up to three a year. That's pretty darned good, and unprecedented for blockbuster films. I'm not sure that demanding more is reasonable.

[Legato Endless]

I think part of the problem is there's a conflation of terms. Good stories have payoff (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cG5zKwmXLgo), but payoff (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PLLGN7zv-3k) isn't necessarily catharsis or the good guys getting a victory. Setup is merely introducing a narrative element and payoff is resolving it.

Avengers 3 has examples of both.

For instance: Gamora and Starlord confess their feelings and she asks him to kill her. Setup. They face Thanos and Starlord tries to keep his word. This payoffs his promise and develops Starlord's feelings over the relationship. Starlord learns Thanos killed his daughter and attacks him, ruining the team up. Payoff of the arc in the film. Mechanically this is competently enough done, while Starlord loses a lot of sympathy from some fans his reaction is perceived as emotionally understandable for the character.

What it sounds like is that the emotional (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/490733/) arc of the story, largely a downward slide with occasionally hopeful moments that each crash and burn, unable to arrest the death spiral of the film, was unpalatable to Expert and the promise of victory in the next installment simply isn't enough to recontextualize the film for him.

[Malphegor]

Side note, since the name of this one is from the Avengers 2 quote from Tony Stark "that's the endgame", referring to avenging vs cosmic threats, and Cap going on about if they fail, they fail together...

My theory based on the bits I know is that Ant-Man and Cap are going to go across time and space collecting Avengers, new and old pre-Snap, to 'get the gang back together'. Then, by the power invested in these Avengers as conduits of each stone (uh... somehow. Pym particles!), they summon Adam Warlock or Captain Universe or something to send Thanos to the shadow zone or whatever. Having seen that musical films work well with Ragnarok and Gotg, they will have the Blues Brothers Soundtrack playing throughout. Even where it is inappropriate.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I think part of the problem is there's a conflation of terms. Good stories have payoff (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cG5zKwmXLgo), but payoff (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PLLGN7zv-3k) isn't necessarily catharsis or the good guys getting a victory. Setup is merely introducing a narrative element and payoff is resolving it.

Avengers 3 has examples of both.

For instance: Gamora and Starlord confess their feelings and she asks him to kill her. Setup. They face Thanos and Starlord tries to keep his word. This payoffs his promise and develops Starlord's feelings over the relationship. Starlord learns Thanos killed his daughter and attacks him, ruining the team up. Payoff of the arc in the film. Mechanically this is competently enough done, while Starlord loses a lot of sympathy from some fans his reaction is perceived as emotionally understandable for the character.

What it sounds like is that the emotional (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/490733/) arc of the story, largely a downward slide with occasionally hopeful moments that each crash and burn, unable to arrest the death spiral of the film, was unpalatable to Expert and the promise of victory in the next installment simply isn't enough to recontextualize the film for him.

I'm mostly okay with this rephrasing, but I still feel like when someone gathers up a team of superheroes to defeat the bad guy and they don't defeat the bad guy this also falls under a lack of payoff, or at least an anticlimax.

And maybe I was just in a ****ty mood when I saw Infinity War, or maybe I'm a bad movie critic in general, I fell asleep during The Godfather. I also feel like a plot like the one Malphegor suggests (this does at least seem to be the way they were heading, Dr. Strange timed their losing battle over the time stone in such a way that Hank Pim would be in the quantum realm on the moment of annihilation or something like that so that he would survive so that something time travelly or such could happen, maybe combined with some sort of time loop or contingency spell by Strange himself) would go a long way towards a good recovery, giving us back all the characters we lost before the epic team up that ends some of these character's plot lines for good is over. So Endgame is probably going to be pretty epic, and as a combination the movies will probably be pretty good as well. But I still feel like there were ways to get a good part 2 while letting me enjoy part 1 more. If I'm an atypical movie viewer for that, so be it.

[Devonix]

I'm mostly okay with this rephrasing, but I still feel like when someone gathers up a team of superheroes to defeat the bad guy and they don't defeat the bad guy this also falls under a lack of payoff, or at least an anticlimax.

And maybe I was just in a ****ty mood when I saw Infinity War, or maybe I'm a bad movie critic in general, I fell asleep during The Godfather. I also feel like a plot like the one Malphegor suggests (this does at least seem to be the way they were heading, Dr. Strange timed their losing battle over the time stone in such a way that Hank Pim would be in the quantum realm on the moment of annihilation or something like that so that he would survive so that something time travelly or such could happen, maybe combined with some sort of time loop or contingency spell by Strange himself) would go a long way towards a good recovery, giving us back all the characters we lost before the epic team up that ends some of these character's plot lines for good is over. So Endgame is probably going to be pretty epic, and as a combination the movies will probably be pretty good as well. But I still feel like there were ways to get a good part 2 while letting me enjoy part 1 more. If I'm an atypical movie viewer for that, so be it.

The heroes don't have to win though. Characters losing is also a payoff.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The heroes don't have to win though. Characters losing is also a payoff.

Yes, but also debatable.

Early on in The Rock, I am told that the terrorists are going to blow lots of stuff up. To stop them, we can send airplanes to blow them up. At that point I'm being set up for a big explosion, one way or the other. If the main characters would actually succeed in their mission and prevent any explosions, I'd feel cheated. The setup didn't pay off, despite the story line coming to a logical conclusion while using all the elements introduced. When I go to a casino and I end up losing then my bet didn't pay off. I'm not going to argue it payed off differently, I'm going home unpaid. I guess I'm so trained by action movies to expect a big final stand type battle to end in a hard earned victory that that's my expectation, even when watching a part 1 of 2. And subverting my expectations a bit isn't bad, The Rock doesn't end with exactly the explosion I was expecting, but in this case, at the moment I saw that film, I was not impressed by it. They give up before they lose, with some of their most powerful characters not fighting so they can instead try to suicide Vision to kill the bad guys plan, and stupidly doing it on the battlefield right in front of previously mentioned bad guy, like they want him to curb-stomp everyone and intervene. And as I said, there are cool moments that do satisfy me, it's just kind of half. The Hulk has been refusing to come out for the whole movie, after losing one quick poorly lit battle where he didn't look like he meant it, nothing got smashed. So surely, Hulk is going to bust out of that armor and smash some people. Nope, but Banner solves the situation himself, with one hand, booyah. That's almost as cool as Hulk busting out would have been, and that one is actually perfect for a two parter, so props to them on that. But that is an exception, the overall impression that all of the storylines I picked up on together left on me was still pretty depressing. Might have something to do with my favorite Avengers being Falcon, Hulk and Black Widow as well, probably followed by Nick Fury, they don't get a lot of cool stuff to do. And will someone please just write that moron of a Star Lord, Guardian of the Galaxy, man who personally screwed everyone because he's an immature nitwit, out of the movie? Super succesfull protagonists who I'm supposed to root for who act like complete morons annoy me.

Sorry, look at me, ranting about pet peeves. I'm glad lots of you liked the movie, there just were too many moments that didn't work for me, and too few that did.

[Erloas]

I think it is safe to say that in 14 million futures that Dr. Strange looked through, there were probably quite a few where Star Lord didn't mess up the plan, they temporarily got the gauntlet, and still lost. While it may have been a little cheap in storytelling to have Dr. Strange just say "only one possible good outcome exists" and then imply that they're on it even when things seem lost, that doesn't really change the fact that what the actual victory looks like doesn't have to, and probably shouldn't, just fit exactly into expectation. In fact, having a story end exactly how you want it to doesn't really make for a good or interesting story. We've been trained to expect things to work out, but that doesn't mean it is actually the best way to tell a story. I'm not even sure I know of any well known stories that fit the classic definition of a tragedy, but they were common enough before.
I'm tired of movies where you pretty much know exactly what is going to happen about 10 minutes into them because they're following all the expectations of viewers.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'm tired of movies where you pretty much know exactly what is going to happen about 10 minutes into them because they're following all the expectations of viewers.

Fair point.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm mostly okay with this rephrasing, but I still feel like when someone gathers up a team of superheroes to defeat the bad guy and they don't defeat the bad guy this also falls under a lack of payoff, or at least an anticlimax.

Well, the big fight at the end is the climax, but both kinds of story are valid, and common. If we're going by greek standards, the happy ending is a comedy, and the unhappy ending is a tragedy. Western stories tend to more frequently have the former, but this isn't universal across cultures, and certainly isn't innate to all storytelling. The greeks loved tragedies, and they're not at all uncommon in some asian cultures as well.

I don't think it is a necessary expectation that the bad guy must be defeated by the end of the film. That's only true for a specific type of story, and other types can also be excellent.

[Rodin]

I'm thinking Expert should never watch Blake's Seven.


I'm tired of movies where you pretty much know exactly what is going to happen about 10 minutes into them because they're following all the expectations of viewers.

This was what I liked most about Infinity War. I went in knowing nothing about The Snap from the comics, so I was relying on pure movie trope meta-knowledge to guess the plot.

At the start of the movie, it plays up the idea that the Avengers are going to get an equal number of the Infinity Stones. They have the Time Stone and the Mind Stone, and the Soul Stone makes you think that it's impossible for Thanos to get it. This allows a 3 on 3 Stone Brawl for the climax when one of the Avengers makes some great sacrifice to get it.

Instead, Thanos gets the stone. This was the first big shock of the film for me, and a big Oh Crap moment. After that point, he has 4 Stones and by meta-knowledge is guaranteed to get the remaining two. Because you don't give the Big Bad two thirds of the Macguffins and not have him complete the set.

This leads to the next big set up - the Avengers are going to screw with the Mind stone. Vision goes to Wakanda, and Strange delays Thanos as long as he can while keeping his intention to give Thanos the Time Stone secret, because he knows the others would never go along with it and Thanos needs all six if he's going to have a superpower meltdown when the tampered with Mind Stone blows up in his face. Thanos erases himself from existence, everybody comes back to life, we all live happily ever after. Right?

...Wrong. Thanos uses the Mind Stone with no apparent ill effect, everybody dies, roll credits. And now we have to wait a year to find out what the real conclusion is.

That stunned me rigid. I never expected there to be a part two, not when no other Marvel movie has had a cliffhanger like that. In this I feel the comic book fans missed out - they knew the Snap would happen, and also that in the comics it happens at the START of the story. There's a big expectation there for a part two as the movie gets closer and closer to the end without the Snap. Going in blind was a huge bonus for me.

They managed to subvert my expectations, even when I thought I knew where the story was going.

[Devonix]

I'm thinking Expert should never watch Blake's Seven.



This was what I liked most about Infinity War. I went in knowing nothing about The Snap from the comics, so I was relying on pure movie trope meta-knowledge to guess the plot.

At the start of the movie, it plays up the idea that the Avengers are going to get an equal number of the Infinity Stones. They have the Time Stone and the Mind Stone, and the Soul Stone makes you think that it's impossible for Thanos to get it. This allows a 3 on 3 Stone Brawl for the climax when one of the Avengers makes some great sacrifice to get it.

Instead, Thanos gets the stone. This was the first big shock of the film for me, and a big Oh Crap moment. After that point, he has 4 Stones and by meta-knowledge is guaranteed to get the remaining two. Because you don't give the Big Bad two thirds of the Macguffins and not have him complete the set.

This leads to the next big set up - the Avengers are going to screw with the Mind stone. Vision goes to Wakanda, and Strange delays Thanos as long as he can while keeping his intention to give Thanos the Time Stone secret, because he knows the others would never go along with it and Thanos needs all six if he's going to have a superpower meltdown when the tampered with Mind Stone blows up in his face. Thanos erases himself from existence, everybody comes back to life, we all live happily ever after. Right?

...Wrong. Thanos uses the Mind Stone with no apparent ill effect, everybody dies, roll credits. And now we have to wait a year to find out what the real conclusion is.

That stunned me rigid. I never expected there to be a part two, not when no other Marvel movie has had a cliffhanger like that. In this I feel the comic book fans missed out - they knew the Snap would happen, and also that in the comics it happens at the START of the story. There's a big expectation there for a part two as the movie gets closer and closer to the end without the Snap. Going in blind was a huge bonus for me.

They managed to subvert my expectations, even when I thought I knew where the story was going.

You do have a point, for me and a lot of people going in. The Snap and the knowledge of it hung over the entire film. We knew where everything was headed, so it just became about the execution. But there were no surprises for us. It's why I've never had problems with comic book movies having no connection to comic book stories, hell I prefer that they don't. For me there was no emotional connection to the end of the film and I had a hard time understanding how it resonated with people.

[Eldan]

I'm thinking Expert should never watch Blake's Seven.



This was what I liked most about Infinity War. I went in knowing nothing about The Snap from the comics, so I was relying on pure movie trope meta-knowledge to guess the plot.

At the start of the movie, it plays up the idea that the Avengers are going to get an equal number of the Infinity Stones. They have the Time Stone and the Mind Stone, and the Soul Stone makes you think that it's impossible for Thanos to get it. This allows a 3 on 3 Stone Brawl for the climax when one of the Avengers makes some great sacrifice to get it.

Instead, Thanos gets the stone. This was the first big shock of the film for me, and a big Oh Crap moment. After that point, he has 4 Stones and by meta-knowledge is guaranteed to get the remaining two. Because you don't give the Big Bad two thirds of the Macguffins and not have him complete the set.

This leads to the next big set up - the Avengers are going to screw with the Mind stone. Vision goes to Wakanda, and Strange delays Thanos as long as he can while keeping his intention to give Thanos the Time Stone secret, because he knows the others would never go along with it and Thanos needs all six if he's going to have a superpower meltdown when the tampered with Mind Stone blows up in his face. Thanos erases himself from existence, everybody comes back to life, we all live happily ever after. Right?

...Wrong. Thanos uses the Mind Stone with no apparent ill effect, everybody dies, roll credits. And now we have to wait a year to find out what the real conclusion is.

That stunned me rigid. I never expected there to be a part two, not when no other Marvel movie has had a cliffhanger like that. In this I feel the comic book fans missed out - they knew the Snap would happen, and also that in the comics it happens at the START of the story. There's a big expectation there for a part two as the movie gets closer and closer to the end without the Snap. Going in blind was a huge bonus for me.

They managed to subvert my expectations, even when I thought I knew where the story was going.

See, I didn't know the snap either (The only superhero comic I ever read in my life was Watchmen), and I went in expecting exactly what happened, from the moment they announced it was a two parter. "Right, so this is the part where they lose and the next one is the part where they win. Means he gets all the stones. Oh, of course he's going to sacrifice them in this scene, no screen writer could resist showing how nobly sad he is about that.")

[Keltest]

See, I didn't know the snap either (The only superhero comic I ever read in my life was Watchmen), and I went in expecting exactly what happened, from the moment they announced it was a two parter. "Right, so this is the part where they lose and the next one is the part where they win. Means he gets all the stones. Oh, of course he's going to sacrifice them in this scene, no screen writer could resist showing how nobly sad he is about that.")

Personally, I figured that Part One would be the two sides assembling and wielding all their stones, with Part Two actually being the completion of the Gauntlet by Thanos and the Avengers doing whatever they have to do to stop the Snap.

[Rodin]

See, I didn't even know it was a two parter (or if I had heard, I forgot by the time I saw it). This is where avoiding trailers and early movie speculation helps, I guess. I went in with no preconceptions other than "this is the big end-all beat-all showdown we've been building up to since the first Avengers movie". There was always a possibility in my mind that they would wrap it up in a single movie.

[Erloas]

Not that I watch TV to see any commercials, but it is always why any movie idea I do hear about that I'm interested in, I make sure to avoid anything about it. It is always why I avoid all the OOTS speculation threads too. I would much rather watch a story unfold on its own without knowing anything that is going to happen.

[The_Ditto]

apart from Thanos' nonsensical motivation.


It's based on a comic book .. not many have villains having anything other than a nonsensical motivation!!! LOL
:)

[Keltest]

It's based on a comic book .. not many have villains having anything other than a nonsensical motivation!!! LOL
:)

I like that the movie cops to Thanos being a lunatic. Its a lot more refreshing than groups like Hydra with their nebulous goals for doing something nonspecific.

[Devonix]

I like that the movie cops to Thanos being a lunatic. Its a lot more refreshing than groups like Hydra with their nebulous goals for doing something nonspecific.

Ehh at least thr comic actions matched his motivation better. Movie thanos doesn't come across qs crazy, he comes across as stupid.

[Legato Endless]

At the risk of being crucified by both sides, I wouldn't rate Thanos as the best antagonist of Phase 3, nor would I place his comic book counterpart in my top ten for greatest Marvel villians.

I haven't really commented in all the discussion about his motivation as my primary enjoyment of Infinity War was focused elsewhere. Which isn't to dunk on anyone who did, I just wasn't very engaged with it this time.

[Eldan]

It's based on a comic book .. not many have villains having anything other than a nonsensical motivation!!! LOL
:)

Eh, in the comics (from what I've read in various forum discussions), it's megalomaniacal and insane, but it makes sense. Well, comic/fantasy sense. In love with an anthropomorphic incarnation of a concept? Sure. I can buy that.

But I can't really buy the idea of an interstellar warlord who has never seen a population curve. Or who has so little grasp of statistics that he can't understand that killing half the population won't increase welfare.

[Tyndmyr]

Ehh at least thr comic actions matched his motivation better. Movie thanos doesn't come across qs crazy, he comes across as stupid.

In fairness, that sort of craziness can come with a certain degree of stupidity. Check out crazy conspiracy sorts in the real world. Flat earthers or what not. There is no small amount of intellectual holes that they stretch to ignore or paper over in pursuit of the crazy.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

This didn't bother me personally, but I get where Devonix is coming from. If Thanos seems crazy to start with he's a more straight up force of bad stuff that needs to be stopped, if Thanos seems like a reasonable person you have to think about his plan, maybe even his motivations to tell if what he wants to do is bad, and we all know that one person who fails that particular intelligence roll and starts defending Thanos. It makes the whole thing feel more like a matter of opinion. Should the galaxy be genocided? Maybe, who knows? Why is there not a single Avenger asking themselves these existential questions? While if he seems like a clear madman it comes across as more natural that of course everybody wants to stop him and nobody listens to his speeches. He's barking mad! EDIT: And also possibly a bigger threat on an intellectual level, ironically enough. Because he's mad, not stupid. But as I said, for me Thanos worked.

[Florian]

apart from Thanos' nonsensical motivation.

Thanos is actually one of the few villains who`s motivation makes sense on the scale we're talking about.

It showcases the weak spot of our form of democracy, if you so want: When we have a choice, no one choses the hard way. People only go for the hard way when we have run out of choices.

As an example, answer a simple question: Should be develop alternatives before we run out of fossil oil or should we develop a follow-up technology after we have run out of fossil oil?

In reality, we all know that A is true but for various reasons, we will go with B.

[Magic_Hat]

It's based on a comic book .. not many have villains having anything other than a nonsensical motivation!!! LOL
:)

Because comic books are just silly little books for kids and manchildren - it's not like it's a real medium. It's just superheroes and one dimensional villains. It's not there are comic book writers/artists that deal in other genres.:smallannoyed:

In all seriousness, I may have a low opinion of the MCU, but Endgame kind of has me hyped. I mean so many things happened in Infinity War. How will it conclude? What will change and what will be permanent? Is this the final hour for the Avengers?
So many characters died in Infinity War...ARE THEY GONE FOR GOOD?

I'm on the edge of my - oh wait there's a trailer for a new film on youtube. A film coming out after Endgame that's in/related to the MCU:
Well I guess Thanos is defeated and Spider-Man and Nick Fury are brought back to life. Way to spoil your own film Marvel! There are a lot of trailers that spoiler their own movie, but I think it's unprecedented a trailer spoilers another film.

I have to ask and I'm not trying to sound cynical what do people see in these films? Even from a pure action popcorn film standpoint you know how these films are gonna end so how can even action scenes be enjoyable? There's no tension.

[Keltest]

Because comic books are just silly little books for kids and manchildren - it's not like it's a real medium. It's just superheroes and one dimensional villains. It's not there are comic book writers/artists that deal in other genres.:smallannoyed:

In all seriousness, I may have a low opinion of the MCU, but Endgame kind of has me hyped. I mean so many things happened in Infinity War. How will it conclude? What will change and what will be permanent? Is this the final hour for the Avengers?
So many characters died in Infinity War...ARE THEY GONE FOR GOOD?

I'm on the edge of my - oh wait there's a trailer for a new film on youtube. A film coming out after Endgame that's in/related to the MCU:
Well I guess Thanos is defeated and Spider-Man and Nick Fury are brought back to life. Way to spoil your own film Marvel! There are a lot of trailers that spoiler their own movie, but I think it's unprecedented a trailer spoilers another film.

I have to ask and I'm not trying to sound cynical what do people see in these films? Even from a pure action popcorn film standpoint you know how these films are gonna end so how can even action scenes be enjoyable? There's no tension.

Its about the journey, not the destination. How they eventually win is significantly more important than whether they do.

[Wookieetank]

I have to ask and I'm not trying to sound cynical what do people see in these films? Even from a pure action popcorn film standpoint you know how these films are gonna end so how can even action scenes be enjoyable? There's no tension.

There's no real tension in comedies either. Sometimes things are just fun and entertaining, not everything has to have tension to be enjoyable. Once Die Hard started getting sequels we knew how they were gonna end, doesn't mean its not fun finding out How they turn out that way.

I watch Marvel movies for the character arcs, and how they change (or don't) over the course of the challenges they face. That and I'm a sucker for flashy fight scenes.

[Lizard Lord]

I mean don't you usually know how most movies end? That seems about as fair of a criticism as "you know its not real right?"

[Erloas]

I thought one of the parts that made the MCU movies good is that while you know the protagonist win, what that victory actually looks like is unknown. Especially when you pull it all together, including Agents of Shield. There were plenty of victories where things were worse off than they started.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm on the edge of my - oh wait there's a trailer for a new film on youtube. A film coming out after Endgame that's in/related to the MCU:
Well I guess Thanos is defeated and Spider-Man and Nick Fury are brought back to life. Way to spoil your own film Marvel! There are a lot of trailers that spoiler their own movie, but I think it's unprecedented a trailer spoilers another film.

I have to ask and I'm not trying to sound cynical what do people see in these films? Even from a pure action popcorn film standpoint you know how these films are gonna end so how can even action scenes be enjoyable? There's no tension.

Again, did you actually really believe that Marvel was going to permenantly kill characters that have already long-planned upcoming movies?

This is literally no different to a mid-season cliffhanger for a TV series. Hell, even a regular action sequence, or can't you enjoy any of those in a series, because you know that, because the actors have jobs, that Captain Kirk/Colonel O'Neill/Horatio Caine/William Murdoch/Supergirl/Flash/Green Arrow is not going to actually die (permenantly) this episode fighting the Klingons/Goa'uld/serial killer/serial killer/Raine/uh...Zoom?/I-don't-know-I-only-see-Arrow-though-the-crossovers1, because there's another episode next week?

(Or Doctor Who, where you know, pretty much months in advance, the only time the Doctor is going to die (and no matter how often Space Astronauts kill him, you know it's going to be resolved by the end of the arc).)



1By-the-by, Elseworlds was fracking great and given the current topic I won't say more than that...

[Florian]

To use an analogy, in Germany, we have the long running TV series of Tatort, your basic crime series. Basically, each member state is in on the franchise and sports a couple of characters and locations that will always be recurring. It´s basically a given that each team will mostly solve their crimes, no suspense there, the fun is in watching each teams style, which are very distinctive, the follow up on the individual character progress that happens along the series and is primarily keyed to each team.

[Aotrs Commander]

To use an analogy, in Germany, we have the long running TV series of Tatort, your basic crime series. Basically, each member state is in on the franchise and sports a couple of characters and locations that will always be recurring. It´s basically a given that each team will mostly solve their crimes, no suspense there, the fun is in watching each teams style, which are very distinctive, the follow up on the individual character progress that happens along the series and is primarily keyed to each team.


Exactly. Like Keltest said earlier, journey, not destination.

[GloatingSwine]

The ultimate example of that is Columbo.

Where the audience knows who dunnit from the start and the entertainment is in watching Peter Falk badger and annoy them into admitting it.

[The_Ditto]

I mean don't you usually know how most movies end? That seems about as fair of a criticism as "you know its not real right?"

He never watched Titanic, obviously .. :)

[Devonix]

He never watched Titanic, obviously .. :)

I thought Infinity War was just ok for many reasons, but knowing how it ends... If knowing how a film ends means it's not a good movie, then there would never be a reason to watch a film more than once.

[MikelaC1]

I as well was surprised by how IW ended. I thought for sure it was going to be Thanos getting 3 or 4 of the Stones and then part2 would be preventing him from getting the last two or failing that, preventing the Snap. When he actually got all 6 and did the deed, I was very surprised.

And another thing. People seem to be shocked by the fact that Endgame is predicted to run 3 hours. Personally, I would feel cheated and bit shocked if it DIDNT run 3 hours. We're not talking about some generic supervillan who plans to take over the world, this guy enacted his plan and took out untold billions (when you consider all the other planets), and now it has to be undone. Not to mention wrapping up this phase of the MCU and clearing the decks for the lesser lights to step forward.

[Soepvork]

Well I guess Thanos is defeated and Spider-Man and Nick Fury are brought back to life. Way to spoil your own film Marvel! There are a lot of trailers that spoiler their own movie, but I think it's unprecedented a trailer spoilers another film.



That said though, imagine how mind-boggling it would be if Marvel reveals after Endgame that 'Far from Home' and any other post-Endgame movies were never intended but just a marketing ploy instead, and all that was made of those movies are the trailers

[Devonix]

I as well was surprised by how IW ended. I thought for sure it was going to be Thanos getting 3 or 4 of the Stones and then part2 would be preventing him from getting the last two or failing that, preventing the Snap. When he actually got all 6 and did the deed, I was very surprised.

And another thing. People seem to be shocked by the fact that Endgame is predicted to run 3 hours. Personally, I would feel cheated and bit shocked if it DIDNT run 3 hours. We're not talking about some generic supervillan who plans to take over the world, this guy enacted his plan and took out untold billions (when you consider all the other planets), and now it has to be undone. Not to mention wrapping up this phase of the MCU and clearing the decks for the lesser lights to step forward.

It's kinda surprising that Lack of comic knowledge may actually have made the film better for people. It's kind of the reason that I always say I've got no problem with Adaptations changing things, otherwise I might as well go and read the book again.

[GloatingSwine]

That said though, imagine how mind-boggling it would be if Marvel reveals after Endgame that 'Far from Home' and any other post-Endgame movies were never intended but just a marketing ploy instead, and all that was made of those movies are the trailers

Trouble is if they actually tried that the shareholders would kill and eat the people who made the decision on live television.

I will not be surprised at all if Nick Fury is not in Far From Home at all. Because trailers always lie, and trailers for a film with Mysterio in? Believe nothing, trust nobody.

[Lt-Murgen]

Trouble is if they actually tried that the shareholders would kill and eat the people who made the decision on live television.

No- pay per view to recoup their lost investments...

[Aotrs Commander]

Trouble is if they actually tried that the shareholders would kill and eat the people who made the decision on live television.

And, for unheard of occasion, I'd be handing them the knives and holding up some recipes...

[The Glyphstone]

And, for unheard of occasion, I'd be handing them the knives and holding up some recipes...

Why do you think knives, or cooking, would be involved?

[GloatingSwine]

No- pay per view to recoup their lost investments...

Oh no.

It's not about the money, it's about sending a message.

[Aotrs Commander]

Why do you think knives, or cooking, would be involved?

Because I was making a bit of a Red Dwarf allusion.


KRYTEN: Well sir, are you really saying you'd rather have a psychopathic mechanical killer rip off your skull and play your frontal nodes like a xylophone than have another bowl of my nourishing space nettle soup?

CAT: Buddy, I'd hand him the sticks and hold up the sheet music!

[russdm]

Why do you think knives, or cooking, would be involved?

I just thought it was a key part of Lich Nature. They are supposedly really good cooks. They are always cooking up new things-Spells, rocks, people, little mushrooms, little bits of plants, Tea, Coffee, that patch of water that never disappears unless it's really hot.\


As for Endgame: I would really like to see some people not get Unsnapped. Otherwise, what was the entire point if everybody is back to living afterward? There should some emotional costs, and some people that weren't Snapped should kick the bucket.

Thanos should have an impact beyond, "We reset time so nobody got Snapped", is major disappointment for the stakes if they undo it completely.

[Lizard Lord]

There is no way people aren't getting unsnapped. Marvel isn't even pretending they won't given the Spider-Man Far From Home trailers. With that said that doesn't necessarily mean Thanos won't have consequences. For Example Heimdall, Loki, Gamora, and Vision weren't snapped away and they don't have any solo movies coming out. (My understanding is that even the Loki T.V. show I have only heard about by word of mouth is a prequel story.) Plus there is a possibility of sacrifices being made by the surviving heroes in order to undo the snap.

[GloatingSwine]

My expectation is that the people who died or snapped in Infinity War will come back, and some new people will die in Endgame.

Probably Steve and Tony, because contracts.


Also, given that Captain Marvel is introducing them, I think it's time to start speculating: Who's secretly a Skrull?

[Keltest]

My expectation is that the people who died or snapped in Infinity War will come back, and some new people will die in Endgame.

Probably Steve and Tony, because contracts.


Also, given that Captain Marvel is introducing them, I think it's time to start speculating: Who's secretly a Skrull?

Everybody. Theyre all Skrulls. This is actually just a skrull simulation of the battle plan to take down Thanos.

[Devonix]

There is no way Gamorra isnt coming back.

[GloatingSwine]

Everybody. Theyre all Skrulls. This is actually just a skrull simulation of the battle plan to take down Thanos.

If they were all skrulls that would make the inevitable secret invasion a comedy of errors as all the skrulls try to infiltrate by replacing other skrulls.


I'm going to open the bidding with Scott. He's actually still trapped in the quantum realm. That's a Skrull.

[russdm]

I'm going to open the bidding with Scott. He's actually still trapped in the quantum realm. That's a Skrull.

So, of all the people that the Skrulls could replace, they go with the comedian? Why not the head of an organization? or how about somebody from Marvel Agents of Shield? Or you could have some silly happen.

Wasn't the Skrull was one of those bizarrro things that got made? I think I recall something like a few dozen different races all about infilterating or something. There must have been dozens of those instances from little I could recall hearing about. What was the Skrulls motivation? Something about learning about lovemaking or was it knowledge or something? I remember hearing about a half-Skrull or part-Skrull, or was that a different race? For that marvel superhero?

[GloatingSwine]

So, of all the people that the Skrulls could replace, they go with the comedian? Why not the head of an organization? or how about somebody from Marvel Agents of Shield? Or you could have some silly happen.


Agents of Shield doesn't exist in the movies.

And Scott is a perfect first step. Skrulls can't replicate superpowers normally, but his are tech based so they can just steal an Ant Man suit. He's not under as much scrutiny as the big name Avengers (and he's already established form for breaking away from scrutiny getting out of house arrest) so aberrant behaviour sticks out less.

I'm telling you. Skrull. Definitely. Just you watch.

Also, thematically the next two Marvel movies that aren't Endgame are both about not trusting what you see. Shapeshifting Skrulls in Captain Marvel and trickery and shenanigans from Mysterio in Far From Home. It's all clues I tell you!

The Skrulls just want to take over the world and/or beat up the Fantastic Four most of the time. But they're the baddies in Captain Marvel, and Secret Invasion is a pretty popular storyline so I expect it to come up at some point. One of the major parts of Secret Invasion was that for the last couple of major stories quite a lot of superheroes had actually been Skrulls in disguise. So start spotting now.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The Hulk is a skrull.

But not Banner. Just the Hulk. It would normally be a ridiculous impossibility, a shapeshifter replacing not the were but just the wolf, and it certainly required some doing, but because of the physical disconnect between the two personalities they technobabbled their way around the issue. They got really lucky when Hulk spent all that time off planet without changing back. That's why Hulk refuses to come out, he raises no suspicion this way and he helps the good guys as little as possible. It's also why Thanos could manhandle the green guy without activating the strength stone.

[Lizard Lord]

There is no way Gamorra isnt coming back.

Care to explain why? GotG doesn't need Gamora to continue (in the comics there even is a few times she has left the team, not that this is about the comics). At this point we don't even know if there will be a GotG Vol. 3 thanks to the whole James Gunn controversy.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Care to explain why? GotG doesn't need Gamora to continue (in the comics there even is a few times she has left the team, not that this is about the comics). At this point we don't even know if there will be a GotG Vol. 3 thanks to the whole James Gunn controversy.

Because the actress was asked if she was sad Infinity War had wrapped and stopped filming, and she said "well we'll see everyone again in a few months, so it's fine". So she appears to at least be in some flashback scenes or such.

[Devonix]

Care to explain why? GotG doesn't need Gamora to continue (in the comics there even is a few times she has left the team, not that this is about the comics). At this point we don't even know if there will be a GotG Vol. 3 thanks to the whole James Gunn controversy.

The entire cast of Guardians was already signed on for Guardians 3 Also there's no way they'd have the finale and culmination of her and Peter's arc take place in a crossover movie and not their own.

Even if Guardians 3 doesn't happen Endgame was already written, and had started filming before all of the Guardians 3 controversey, and there is no way they'd change the script after all of that work had be done.

[Legato Endless]

The Hulk is a skrull.

But not Banner. Just the Hulk.

Hawkeye's bow is a Skrull. His new look in Avengers 4 isn't about his family dying. It's because he's gonna have to use new gear because his bow got up and walked away.