Wall of Pain Width.

[TheRageee]

Hello guys, can you help me?
One of the players of my group thinks the wall created by this spell must be some inch wide (despites not being specified in the spell, like for example Wall of Force which doesnt have a width), because "all of the others walls like Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, etc. specify they are <1 inch thick per four caster levels>". Imho, I think that the spell refers to its own area as just... the area. Meant as: if you pass through the wall, you suffer the effects of the spell. Or if the wall is casted diagonally, you just suffer the effects automatically (implying you dont pass the Will saving throw).
What's the correct interpretation?
His point is that "the spells refers to an Area of Effect, so it must be wide somehow". I just think that an Area of Effect is in fact an area, therefore it only needs two dimensions, not three. An area of effect can have no width and refer only to its area. I mean, it's not an AoE if it doesn't have a width?

Wall of Pain
(Shining South)

Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Cleric 4, Sorcerer 4, Wizard 4,
Components: V, S, AF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You fill an area with horrid energy that inflicts severe pain upon any who pass through it.
Affected creatures take a -2 penalty on all attacks, saving throws, and checks while inside the area of the wall.
Further, the wall deals 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per caster level (to a maximum of 15d4) per round to anyone caught in it.
Focus: A miniature scourge.

[Deophaun]

The inch thickness of the other spells is there to determine the wall's hitpoints. Wall of pain isn't made of anything you can hack away, so it was omitted.

Now, the problem is that Bad Stuff Happens when you are inside the wall's area, which means it has to have some width for rules purposes, even if it's perfectly 2D in the world. The most straightforward ruling would be that the wall occupies whatever 5' square it is in, so any creature also occupying one of those squares is considered to be inside the wall.

As for how thick it actually is, once you have made the mechanical ruling, let your player come up with the answer and run with it as long as it conforms to those rules.

[DrMotives]

So it makes magical field of pain. I agree with you, there is no reason why it can't just be a 2-dimensional effect. But to see why this is a problem, what difference does it make in your game if the spell makes a totally flat membrane of energy versus an inch thick energy wall? Either way, creatures the wall crosses when it's created, or things that pass through or end their turn in the space of the wall take the full effect.
The inches of thickness matter for wall of stone, iron, etc because those walls can be broken down with the normal damage to object rules. The wall of pain spell just makes a magic area, you can run through it or not, but you won't leave a hole where others can safely pass through after you. It's not a physical thing with force, it's just a spell effect.

[Hyperversum]

The inch thickness of the other spells is there to determine the wall's hitpoints. Wall of pain isn't made of anything you can hack away, so it was omitted.

Now, the problem is that Bad Stuff Happens when you are inside the wall's area, which means it has to have some width for rules purposes, even if it's perfectly 2D in the world. The most straightforward ruling would be that the wall occupies whatever 5' square it is in, so any creature also occupying one of those squares is considered to be inside the wall.

As for how thick it actually is, once you have made the mechanical ruling, let your player come up with the answer and run with it as long as it conforms to those rules.


So it makes magical field of pain. I agree with you, there is no reason why it can't just be a 2-dimensional effect. But to see why this is a problem, what difference does it make in your game if the spell makes a totally flat membrane of energy versus an inch thick energy wall? Either way, creatures the wall crosses when it's created, or things that pass through or end their turn in the space of the wall take the full effect.
The inches of thickness matter for wall of stone, iron, etc because those walls can be broken down with the normal damage to object rules. The wall of pain spell just makes a magic area, you can run through it or not, but you won't leave a hole where others can safely pass through after you. It's not a physical thing with force, it's just a spell effect.

The point, more than of thick it is and how much space it has on the map is how this area is.
Due to the fact that the spell doens't give an height, it's normal to assume that the area of the wall, as Wall of Force etc shows how much 2d space it can occupy. But then, the spell speaks of "Inside the area of the wall".

It could be read just as the Wall of Fire "to any creature passing through it" description, but it clearly uses other words, more akin to "physical" effects that occupy more space, like Wall of Sand. Therefore, a Wall in which you could remain trapped (maybe you are entagled, something from the other side blocks you from moving completely or hell, even an Invisible Wall cast after this spell).

To be clear, I am a player of OP, and we were discussing how the hell the spell was supposed to be: a 2d-wall or a "3d" -wall? And to be even more clear, I am not the player that brought this spell up, I'm just a ****er who decided to discuss it, as the spell isn't clear at all, and the ruling is clearly different from the description.

In particular the spell spends words saying that it affects someone caugth in it EVERY ROUND, which is reasonable if we were speaking of a true AoE effect, but how do you get trapped in a 2d wall?

[Crake]

Hello guys, can you help me?
One of the players of my group thinks the wall created by this spell must be some inch wide (despites not being specified in the spell, like for example Wall of Force which doesnt have a width), because "all of the others walls like Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, etc. specify they are <1 inch thick per four caster levels>". Imho, I think that the spell refers to its own area as just... the area. Meant as: if you pass through the wall, you suffer the effects of the spell. Or if the wall is casted diagonally, you just suffer the effects automatically (implying you dont pass the Will saving throw).
What's the correct interpretation?
His point is that "the spells refers to an Area of Effect, so it must be wide somehow". I just think that an Area of Effect is in fact an area, therefore it only needs two dimensions, not three. An area of effect can have no width and refer only to its area. I mean, it's not an AoE if it doesn't have a width?

Wall of Pain
(Shining South)

Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Cleric 4, Sorcerer 4, Wizard 4,
Components: V, S, AF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You fill an area with horrid energy that inflicts severe pain upon any who pass through it.
Affected creatures take a -2 penalty on all attacks, saving throws, and checks while inside the area of the wall.
Further, the wall deals 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per caster level (to a maximum of 15d4) per round to anyone caught in it.
Focus: A miniature scourge.

What does it matter if the wall is 1 inch thick, 1 mm thick, or 1 foot thick? Mechanically it makes little to no difference.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Does it need to be vertical? It'd easy to get trapped in the area the wall occupies if it's a flat plane a foot off the ground. Or if the vertical wall passes through your space (especially if you're especially large).

[Hyperversum]

Does it need to be vertical? It'd easy to get trapped in the area the wall occupies if it's a flat plane a foot off the ground. Or if the vertical wall passes through your space (especially if you're especially large).

As a Wall, it's same to assume that it NEEDS to be vertical, unless the spell says otherwise.

The point is that as you guys can see, the description is strange, compared to how you expect a Wall to work.

My idea was that It wasn't a literal wall bit more an area that you could position as you wanted, possibly creating an area in which you could Indeed be trapped.

[zlefin]

hmm, it's just a badly written spell that needs to be houseruled into a more useable form. I don't think there is a single "correct" interpretation, because the spell is simply vague; which is a problem that crops up often enough.
the listed amount of damage for being stuck in it, even though nonlethal, is quite high for a spell of this level.

so, based on my estimations of balance, I guess I'd say that by default, any creature capable of movement would be able to avoid the area of the spell for purposes of being caught in it. However a creature immobilized by some effect can be (eg hold person, manacles, grappling).

or instead, I might just more thoroughly rewrite the spell into a better form and use that.