Metamagic for Harm/Inflict Spells

[Yogibear41]

Working on a potential character who focuses on inflict spells for damage, once he gets up to 6th level spells: namely Harm, I don't see the lower level version of Inflict even with free maximizes and other metamagic being able to keep up with the damage potential.

I was wondering what Metamagic feats would people suggest for using on harm once I had 7th, 8th, and 9th level slots.

[Mike Miller]

Reach Spell is probably useful, right? No need to get too close. Since you are talking damage, the obvious ones are empower and maximize. I forget the req for a spell to work with chain, but reach and chain may work well here. Quicken is always good. Twin is fun. Repeat can help but I never liked it so I never actually put it to use. Hmmmm, I wonder if enlarge spell and reach spell work together. That could be a nice pairing.

If you are ok with Kingdoms of Kalamar, Irresistible Spell is +10 to the save DC. It comes at a hefty price though. No affecting Harm with it.

[Jeraa]

Reach Spell is probably useful, right? No need to get too close. Since you are talking damage, the obvious ones are empower and maximize. I forget the req for a spell to work with chain, but reach and chain may work well here. Quicken is always good. Twin is fun. Repeat can help but I never liked it so I never actually put it to use. Hmmmm, I wonder if enlarge spell and reach spell work together. That could be a nice pairing.

If you are ok with Kingdoms of Kalamar, Irresistible Spell is +10 to the save DC. It comes at a hefty price though. No affecting Harm with it.

As harm does a fixed amount of damage (10/level) instead of a variable amount (dice roll), neither empower nor maximize would do anything. It would need to do dice of damage for those feats to work. Without metamagic reducers, neither Quicken or Twin spell can be used, as each would require a 10th level slot. Repeat Spell can't be used on spells with a range of Touch (and without reduces can't also be combined with Reach Spell).

Also, Enlarge Spell only works on spells with a range of Close, Medium, or Long. Reach Spell gives the spell a range of 30 feet, which is non of those. They don't combine. Basically, the only feat you mentioned that works at all is Reach Spell. None of the rest work at all, or require some sort of metamagic reducer to function.Now all those can work with the lower level inflict spells, but he is specifically asking about harm.

As for one that does work, what about Enervate Spell (Libris Mortis)? +2 spell levels, but increases the spells damage against living targets (not constructs or undead) by 50%. And since harm doesn't work against constructs or undead anyway, the reduced damage means nothing. Does requires you to be nongood, and you can't have the ability to turn undead (but rebuke undead is fine).

[Mike Miller]

He did say the inflict line of spells. So empower and maximize would be useful on those for weaker foes. Metamagic reducers would help with harm (just as with any spell), but if you do want to focus on that spell, arcane thesis is the way to go. Easy metamagic helps too.

[Jeraa]

He did say the inflict line of spells. So empower and maximize would be useful on those for weaker foes. Metamagic reducers would help with harm (just as with any spell), but if you do want to focus on that spell, arcane thesis is the way to go. Easy metamagic helps too.

He is the one that said to focus on that spell, not me. The inflict spells being not worth it, as they can't keep up with potential damage of harm.


Working on a potential character who focuses on inflict spells for damage, once he gets up to 6th level spells: namely Harm, I don't see the lower level version of Inflict even with free maximizes and other metamagic being able to keep up with the damage potential.

I was wondering what Metamagic feats would people suggest for using on harm once I had 7th, 8th, and 9th level slots.

[zfs]

Black Lore of Moil (Complete Arcane) will add 5d6 negative energy damage to your 8th and 9th level Necromancy spells at the cost of 125 gold a pop (also requires some downtime to craft runebones - each one is an hour). Up to you whether an extra ~17.5 damage is worth 125 gold. But the selling point is that it doesn't raise your spell slot at all, so it combines well with other metamagic.

[Jack_Simth]

Black Lore of Moil (Complete Arcane) will add 5d6 negative energy damage to your 8th and 9th level Necromancy spells at the cost of 125 gold a pop (also requires some downtime to craft runebones - each one is an hour). Up to you whether an extra ~17.5 damage is worth 125 gold. But the selling point is that it doesn't raise your spell slot at all, so it combines well with other metamagic.

... would an Empowered Harm enhanced by Black Lore of Moil at caster level 15 deal 150+(5d6*1.5) or (150+5d6)*1.5, do you think?

However: Fell Animate would probably work well.

[zfs]

... would an Empowered Harm enhanced by Black Lore of Moil at caster level 15 deal 150+(5d6*1.5) or (150+5d6)*1.5, do you think?

However: Fell Animate would probably work well.

Unfortunately by RAW I don't think you can Empower Harm (though I know several DM's who either didn't notice this or didn't care). The feat specifies "variable, numeric effects" - since Harm is just 10/level it isn't really variable. But you can probably Empower the 5d6 from Black Lore of Moil itself - so I'd say the former is correct.

Edit: All of the Fell feats probably work well. Though at high levels, fewer and fewer enemies are going to be vulnerable to mind effecting. But free shaken is a nice rider.

[Anthrowhale]

... would an Empowered Harm enhanced by Black Lore of Moil at caster level 15 deal 150+(5d6*1.5) or (150+5d6)*1.5, do you think?

It seems like the latter?

Wrt the OP, although it isn't formally metamagic, 'Poison Spell' from Drow of the Underdark can be quite effective, particularly when you want to use Trollbane against regenerating opponents.

[zfs]

I guess I could see someone arguing that Harm's damage is still "variable" because it scales by caster level. Like I said, I don't think I've ever had a DM who actually shut down Empower on spells like Harm, but I can definitely see the strict RAW argument against it.

[Jack_Simth]

Unfortunately by RAW I don't think you can Empower Harm (though I know several DM's who either didn't notice this or didn't care). The feat specifies "variable, numeric effects" - since Harm is just 10/level it isn't really variable. But you can probably Empower the 5d6 from Black Lore of Moil itself - so I'd say the former is correct.Keep in mind, if you check the example listed for Empower spell in the PHB, it says "For example, an empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1-1/2 for each missile)."

So yes, you do multiply the add-ons. Is the extra damage of the Black Lore of Moil considered part of the spell? Because if it is, it suddenly seems worth the cash to add around 80 damage.

[zfs]

Keep in mind, if you check the example listed for Empower spell in the PHB, it says "For example, an empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1-1/2 for each missile)."

So yes, you do multiply the add-ons. Is the extra damage of the Black Lore of Moil considered part of the spell? Because if it is, it suddenly seems worth the cash to add around 80 damage.

I would say it's absolutely part of the spell once you are casting it as a Moilian spell.

[Mike Miller]

He is the one that said to focus on that spell, not me. The inflict spells being not worth it, as they can't keep up with potential damage of harm.

Perhaps what seems obvious to me is not so to others. My point being...
So empower and maximize would be useful on those for weaker foes.
Harm can't KILL an opponent, but the inflict spells can. Therefore, if you have a weaker opponent, you would potentially be much better off using an inflict spell (as the OP commented on that LINE of spells).

[PunBlake]

If you and your DM are willing to do a little homebrewing/reflavoring, I'd suggest you look at the Combat Medic in Heroes of Battle. The capstone is the ability to convert any spell of 6th and up to Heal spontaneously, as you do with Cure spells when turning undead. Changing that to Harm seems useful for your purposes. I'd suggest reflavoring the riders as negative effects (shaken? something else?) when casting Inflict spells on targets as well. Seems like a relatively easy conversion.

[Telonius]

Perhaps what seems obvious to me is not so to others. My point being...
Harm can't KILL an opponent, but the inflict spells can. Therefore, if you have a weaker opponent, you would potentially be much better off using an inflict spell (as the OP commented on that LINE of spells).

Yeah, Harm is for getting a full-HP'd enemy down to where you can kill it on the next hit. Inflict spells are for killing creatures with lower-HP totals. Quickened Inflict after Harm is a nasty combination.

[WhamBamSam]

Fell Drain Harm can kill (or at least drop) people without getting Quickened Inflicts involved or worrying over whether BLoM damage maybe or maybe not being restricted by Harm's limitation, as the negative level brings their HP total under what they've taken rather than actually damaging them further.

[ShurikVch]

Profane Boost (Complete Divine): You can spend a rebuke attempt as standard action to place an aura of negative energy upon each creature within a 60-ft. burst. Any inflict spell cast on one of these creatures before the end of your next turn is automatically maximized, with no adjustment to the spell's level or casting time.

Mastery of Day and Night (Player's Guide to Eberron): You can spontaneously apply the effect of the Maximize Spell metamagic feat to any cure or inflict spell you cast. Doing this has no effect on the spell's level or casting time.

Holy Potency (Complete Champion):
Conduit of Death: Two conduits of negative energy (rebuking and dealing damage) reinforce each other, making your inflict spells more potent. To use this maneuver, you must first attempt to rebuke undead, then make an attack with an inflict spell (or other negative-energy spell) against a living creature in the following round. You gain a bonus on your damage roll for the spell equal to one-half the result of the initial turning check, and the save DC increases by an amount equal to your Charisma bonus (if any), furthermore, the critical threat range of the attack increases by 1.(May try to combine it with Divine Spell Power from Complete Divine)

Hierophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm) - Blast Infidel

Aeromancer PrC (Dragon #308) gets access to Magical Flux (https://www.realmshelps.net/magic/weather.shtml) at the very 1st level (1/day, as a full round action, up to 10 minutes) - select the "Necromancy" and whatever +1 [metamagic] you're want

[Falontani]

A single level of nosomatic chirguen (yea I can't spell without a reference) from Dragonmarked allows you to trade out any spell for an inflict of equal level spontaneously. It even deals damage to undead, and could be argued to damage constructs (although not specifically RAW)