[PF] Space Marine Build Help

[Arramzy]

Right so I've never posted on this forum before, I'm not even sure I'm in the right place but here goes nothing:

I want to build a Warhammer 40K Space Marine (and the least stealthy character possible).
My Party just finished a Kingdom Builder game, in this game we forged our own empire. The Emperor is seen as a representative of the one true god on their planet, and he became a mere husk, true rule lying with the council. We decided to do a small timeskip and continue playing in this world of our own creation, but instead of playing the rulers of an empire we are now once again mere adventurers.

Now with a God Emperor on the throne and a new game I decided it was my time to shine and purge some Heretics.

For the uninitiated: "The Space Marines are foremost amongst the defenders of humanity, the greatest of the Emperor of Mankind's warriors. They are basically superhuman; having been made superior in all respects to a normal man by a harsh regime of genetic modification, psycho-conditioning and rigorous training. Space Marines are untouched by plague or any natural disease and can suffer wounds that would kill a lesser being several times over, and live to fight again. Clad in Power Armour and wielding the most potent weapons known to Man, the Space Marines are terrifying foes and their devotion to the Emperor and the Imperium of Man is unyielding. They are the God-Emperor's Angels of Death, and they know no fear."

Immediately this tells us a couple of things, They're human as far as Pathfinder rules will be concerned, they're known for their armour, which will have to be heavy. They are true tanks, with lots of HP and AC. They are known for using both guns and melee weapons very effectively.

What else would we like? Ideally things that destroy Demons and the like, a way of not getting sick and a way to shield us from psychic attacks like mind control, fear etc.

All official classes and archetypes are allowed, so is multiclassing and PB is 20. At this a few classes come to mind: The Gunslinger archetype Gun Tank, the Paladin Archetype Holy Gun (lacks heavy armour), the Cavalier Musketeer (lacks heavy armour), Savage Technologist (though this wouldn't work too well with our lawful character, might be fun for a specific Blood Angel build) or even the Trench Fighter (giving quite simple dex damage with a 3 level dip if nothing else, the usefullness of this really depends on what we do with our dex, and Gun Tank 5 would give us the same thing.)

Right now I am thinking along the lines of the Following:
Human Str 14, Dex 15(+2), Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 14 [20 Points]

Gun Tank 1 (heavy Armour, Grit and a free gun), Holy Gun 3 (Flavour, divine health, aura of courage and extra grit.)

Human Bonus Feat: Point Blank Shot
Gun Tank Feat: Gunsmithing
Holy Gun Feat: Extra Grit
1st level feat: Rapid Shot
3rd level feat: Rapid Reload
5th level feat: precise shot/two weapon fighting/weapon focus pistol
7th level feat: snap shot
9th level feat: Sword and pistol

As you can see after lvl 4 this build starts breaking down as I don't know which class to continue with, even the 3 lvls of Holy Gun can be debated as flavour wise any paladin (or arguably inquisitor) archetype would do (and divine hunter instead would ever provide a better feat for free, though at the cost of inspiring presence and other fun things later on if we invest more levels in Paladin) and it doesn't yet add all that much. Especially the lack of bonus feats hurts, as "Sword and Pistol" is basically necessary to use our unique combo of tankines and guns effectively, and this feat has a *lot* of prerequisites, some of which seem sub optimal to me.

So the great challenges of this build as far as I'm concerned is its lack of feats and the question of what our 5th level would be.


TLDR: Heavy armour, Tank, Human, Firearm (but also threatening in melee), deeply religious, hates other races and religions Xenos and Heretics. Help me build him.


So if you have any advice, ideas or tricks that could help me purge heretics I would love to hear it.



FOR THE EMPEROR!

[Ironsides]

Is third party stuff allowed? Are templates allowed? 40k Astartes are a bit hard to emulate accurately since they are basically super soldier chimeras of their primarch. Fluff wise it would be easier to say that you are a neophyte growing into your place in the local chapter.

[Geddy2112]

Building a space marine is a fairly tall order, and not just for their stature.

Stats and Abilities

Off the bat, they are generally high level characters-from the 40K RPG's, they start off with better stats and abilities than veteran rogue traders and other humans. Off the bat they would have the advanced template and a 25pt buy to give the basics of their gene seed-even the "stupid" marines are above average intelligence, and the biggest slowest brute is faster and more graceful than most human acrobats. They are ambidexterous(two weapon fighting), can spit acid, eat the brains of their enemies to gain their knowledge, have multiple hearts, can casually lift and throw cars, and are toughened to the extreme. They would be starting at high level, as their skills are legendary among humanity and the named heroes can solo greater demons.

Their stats and skills also vary, by both chapter and role. A grizzled long fang is going to have some of the highest wisdom running, while an ultramarines librarian is going to have a lot of intelligence and cast like a wizard. Blood angels have higher dexterity, while Salamanders probably have higher con. Let's not even go near grey knights. A Dark Angels apothecary is going to have scarily low charisma compared to a White Scars veteran sarge.

Unless the marine is a sargent or assault marine, sword and pistol is less critical. To my knowledge, space wolves are the only chapter where initiates start as assault marines, the rest starting as scouts. So veteran assault marines would have the skills of sword and pistol but most chapters don't do this. Even tactical marines don't fight pistol and knife very often sans a few chapters. Terminators are the chapter super elite and even higher level.

Toughness, endurance, diehard, and any feat that bolsters healing or makes one generally tougher to kill are the prime feats. Their main skills would be perception,survival, and intimidate, plus a rank in climb and wim. Other skills vary greatly by chapter and type of marine. A devastator or tactical marine is going to have more feats dedicated towards shooting and assault marines, chaplains and officers more towards combat. A rank in knowledge (nobility), knowledge(religion) and knowledge(planar) is not out of the question. It is likely only a tech-marine has any ranks in craft or knowledge engineering. Spellcraft and arcana would be rare on a non librarian. You say non stealthy, but most marines start as scouts and damn near every ravenguard would be trained in stealth. Use Magic Device is heresy, while most marines could arguably have sense motive. Fly for assault marines exclusively, but acrobatics could be ubiquitous.

Classes

Assuming we are going with generic chapter tactical marine, I think you have the core of the build. 3 levels in pally is critical for "and thou shall know no fear" as aura of courage and divine health giving disease immunity. Adding CHA to saves is more a Nuns with Guns] Sisters of Battle Adeptus Sororitas thing, but they do have superhuman resistances so it makes sense. They don't need a 4th level because short of librarians they don't use magic, or at least what passes as magic in the 40K setting. The lay on hands and mercy are a little out of place. Certainly they have superhuman healing abilities, but unless they are apothecaries they don't heal each other and certainly not by touch. Empyreal Knight archetype gives resistances over a mercy, more fitting to the marine. For defensive focused chapters like Iron Hands and Dark Angels, a divine defender archetype would work as well.

I also agree gun tank is at least worth a dip, but it might be worth a second level for bullet deflection considering how strong power armor is. I strongly disagree on inquisitor at all, mainly because they have the inquisition itself to fill that role, and (with tons of exceptions) they don't serve the thematic roll of the inquisitor. Plus they are nonmagical and don't cast spells or call down supernatural renditions of the emperor's judgement(except grey knights but again, let's not go there).

After the gun tank 1 paladin 3, vanilla fighter is fine for weapons and armor training as your average marine is really just a weapon master in heavy armor killing machine. Ranger is another fantastic choice-most chapters have a particular favored enemy. Crimson Fists have favored enemy(orks), Grey Knights get it against demons, Ultramarines against Tyranids, Dark Angels against the fallen chaos space marines etc. Considering the deathwatch are often chosen for that chapter's particular knowledge and skills that counter a xenos, it fits. Plus the 3rd level endurance is fitting.

For an apothecary alchemist or more paladin might be in order. Librarians are some form of caster, but likely divine like a cleric. Chaplin's could be war-priests or skalds. Techmarines could be alchemists, investigators, or clerics. Blood angels specifically would probably have ranks in bloodrager or barbarian to represent the red thirst/black rage. Being instruments of death, slayer is not off the table either. With their loyalty to the emperor and tactical abilities, a mountless(or mount if they get bikes) cavalier or samurai is another good call. Musketeers get a gun instead of a mount and the levels stack with fighter levels for fighter specific feats. The order of the warrior, hero, lion, and sword work for almost any chapter. Some chapters would qualify for other orders. The main thing would be avoiding magical classes outside of Librarians and maybe the Apothecaries, Techmarines and Chaplains.

For prestige classes, the Golden Legionnaire make for good Adaptus Custodes. Hell Knight could apply to almost any marine, and for veterans with experience against Xenos(or any marine who served in the deathwatch) Student of war fits the bill.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Are you looking to build a Space Marine with preexisting material or homebrew something for them?

I would recommend the former, perhaps as a template of some type.


BTW, I actually bothered to stat up a few Bolter weapons.


- Bolt Pistol: DMG (5d8), Range (100’), Clip (8), ROF (Semi)
- Bolt Gun: DMG (5d8), Range (300’), Clip (24), ROF (Semi)
- Heavy Bolter: DMG (5d12), Range (400’), Clip (60), ROF (Auto)

That might help a bit. :smallsmile:

[Arramzy]

Is third party stuff allowed? Are templates allowed? 40k Astartes are a bit hard to emulate accurately since they are basically super soldier chimeras of their primarch. Fluff wise it would be easier to say that you are a neophyte growing into your place in the local chapter.

no third party stuff no, but I don't think that necessary. I do seem him as a neophyte growing into his place, I mean heck, all I'm doing is trying to make the closest approximation to a Space Marine I can within the rules, he'd need to be lvl20(+?) to actually function as such, but that's okay.

[ColorBlindNinja]

no third party stuff no, but I don't think that necessary. I do seem him as a neophyte growing into his place, I mean heck, all I'm doing is trying to make the closest approximation to a Space Marine I can within the rules, he'd need to be lvl20(+?) to actually function as such, but that's okay.

You could probably get something approximating a typical Space Marine around level 8 or so. Level 11-12 would cover most heroes.

[Arramzy]

Are you looking to build a Space Marine with preexisting material or homebrew something for them?

I would recommend the former, perhaps as a template of some type.


BTW, I actually bothered to stat up a few Bolter weapons.


- Bolt Pistol: DMG (5d8), Range (100’), Clip (8), ROF (Semi)
- Bolt Gun: DMG (5d8), Range (300’), Clip (24), ROF (Semi)
- Heavy Bolter: DMG (5d12), Range (400’), Clip (60), ROF (Auto)

That might help a bit. :smallsmile:

I have actually been inspired by other people helping me out on other forums and reddit to create many different types of space marines, and now plan to at some point run a game for my friends themed around them. For that campaign I will definitely homebrew a lot, so this has been saved for later use :D

[ColorBlindNinja]

I have actually been inspired by other people helping me out on other forums and reddit to create many different types of space marines, and now plan to at some point run a game for my friends themed around them. For that campaign I will definitely homebrew a lot, so this has been saved for later use :D

Good to hear, hope you get some use out of those.

These are the ones I made for 40K weapons:

Bolters:

- Bolt Pistol: DMG (5d8), Range (100’), Clip (8), ROF (Semi)
- Bolt Gun: DMG (5d8), Range (300’), Clip (24), ROF (Semi)
- Heavy Bolter: DMG (5d12), Range (400’), Clip (60), ROF (Auto)

Plasma:

- Plasma Pistol: DMG (7d10*), Range (100’), Clip (10), ROF (Single)
- Plasma Gun: DMG (7d10*), Range (300’), Clip (20), ROF (Semi)

* = Deals 3d10 damage to the user on a natural 1 due to overheating, REF for half.

Melta:

- Inferno Pistol: DMG (9d8), Range (35’), Clip (3), ROF (Single)
- Meltagun: DMG (9d8), Range (65’), Clip (5), ROF (Single)

[Arramzy]

you've left me a lot to unpack here, an amazing response thank you for helping me out with this.


Building a space marine is a fairly tall order, and not just for their stature.
I know that is why I asked the internet for help, to be fair I'm looking to build as close an approximation as Pathfinder rules will allow, but the closer the better of course.


Off the bat, they are generally high level characters-from the 40K RPG's, they start off with better stats and abilities than veteran rogue traders and other humans. Off the bat they would have the advanced template and a 25pt buy to give the basics of their gene seed-even the "stupid" marines are above average intelligence, and the biggest slowest brute is faster and more graceful than most human acrobats. They are ambidexterous(two weapon fighting), can spit acid, eat the brains of their enemies to gain their knowledge, have multiple hearts, can casually lift and throw cars, and are toughened to the extreme. They would be starting at high level, as their skills are legendary among humanity and the named heroes can solo greater demons.
we will probably be starting at higher level, but unfortunately no 25pt buy. In this I think I will dump Inteligence, and just say that his indoctrination and dogma suppresses his normally higher intelligence or something, he is so stuck in his codex that he has unlearned to think outside of it. (I realize this rules out some chapters, but it seems to me like a plausible way to still get close to a Space marine within the given restriction


Their stats and skills also vary, by both chapter and role. A grizzled long fang is going to have some of the highest wisdom running, while an ultramarines librarian is going to have a lot of intelligence and cast like a wizard. Blood angels have higher dexterity, while Salamanders probably have higher con. Let's not even go near grey knights. A Dark Angels apothecary is going to have scarily low charisma compared to a White Scars veteran sarge.
This is absolutely very true, actually gives a lot of options to be fair, but I was going for a relatively standard one in this case. As this world has no specific lore for them (yet) and there aren't really things like chapters, though if I wanted to, I could probably be the reason for these existing in the future. I wish there was a good way of doing grey knights but they definitely are a tall order.


Unless the marine is a sargent or assault marine, sword and pistol is less critical. To my knowledge, space wolves are the only chapter where initiates start as assault marines, the rest starting as scouts. So veteran assault marines would have the skills of sword and pistol but most chapters don't do this. Even tactical marines don't fight pistol and knife very often sans a few chapters. Terminators are the chapter super elite and even higher level.
I chose for the sword and pistol boltgun and knife simply because it works well in Pathfinder. It isn't essential to make a Space Marine, but it does seem like a good idea to make it viable as a build as far as I could tell. I could go into the firearms hard but that would mean I rarely tank/frontline like I feel a Space Marine should, giving enemies attacks of opportunity if I do, I mean heck rules say you aren't even threatening if you only wield a firearm, and if nothing else, a Space Marine is threatening... This simply seemed like the best way to be an effective switch hitter tank, don't even switch and do both.


Toughness, endurance, diehard, and any feat that bolsters healing or makes one generally tougher to kill are the prime feats. Their main skills would be perception,survival, and intimidate, plus a rank in climb and wim. Other skills vary greatly by chapter and type of marine. A devastator or tactical marine is going to have more feats dedicated towards shooting and assault marines, chaplains and officers more towards combat. A rank in knowledge (nobility), knowledge(religion) and knowledge(planar) is not out of the question. It is likely only a tech-marine has any ranks in craft or knowledge engineering. Spellcraft and arcana would be rare on a non librarian. You say non stealthy, but most marines start as scouts and damn near every ravenguard would be trained in stealth. Use Magic Device is heresy, while most marines could arguably have sense motive. Fly for assault marines exclusively, but acrobatics could be ubiquitous.
Completely correct. Unfortunately making feats an ever harder choice as they are definitely in demand for this build in general. I find the balance between toughness and harder hitting a difficult one but to be fair, there is a chapter for almost every option in that sense.


Assuming we are going with generic chapter tactical marine, I think you have the core of the build. 3 levels in pally is critical for "and thou shall know no fear" as aura of courage and divine health giving disease immunity. Adding CHA to saves is more a Nuns with Guns] Sisters of Battle Adeptus Sororitas thing, but they do have superhuman resistances so it makes sense. They don't need a 4th level because short of librarians they don't use magic, or at least what passes as magic in the 40K setting. The lay on hands and mercy are a little out of place. Certainly they have superhuman healing abilities, but unless they are apothecaries they don't heal each other and certainly not by touch. Empyreal Knight archetype gives resistances over a mercy, more fitting to the marine. For defensive focused chapters like Iron Hands and Dark Angels, a divine defender archetype would work as well.
Absolutely spot on, Empyreal Knight is very interesting as well, though I think for this purpose Tempered Champion would work even better, as this Archetype completely forgoes magic for more smashing.


I also agree gun tank is at least worth a dip, but it might be worth a second level for bullet deflection considering how strong power armor is. I strongly disagree on inquisitor at all, mainly because they have the inquisition itself to fill that role, and (with tons of exceptions) they don't serve the thematic roll of the inquisitor. Plus they are nonmagical and don't cast spells or call down supernatural renditions of the emperor's judgement(except grey knights but again, let's not go there).
Admittedly, I was thinking deathwatch/Grey knights when mentioning the inquisitor, in hindsight it is definitely not the best fit, only really works because of the name. I am definitely considering dipping deeper for the bullet deflection. Creating cool power armour is definitely part of my goals here, to which end I will also use a Steelbone Frame.


After the gun tank 1 paladin 3, vanilla fighter is fine for weapons and armor training as your average marine is really just a weapon master in heavy armor killing machine. Ranger is another fantastic choice-most chapters have a particular favored enemy. Crimson Fists have favored enemy(orks), Grey Knights get it against demons, Ultramarines against Tyranids, Dark Angels against the fallen chaos space marines etc. Considering the deathwatch are often chosen for that chapter's particular knowledge and skills that counter a xenos, it fits. Plus the 3rd level endurance is fitting.
Currently I think I am more tempted by the fighter, as feats are a must for this build, in incredibly high demand, but for specific chapters I would absolutely use ranger, though this is something I'll probably not use as much in my first game playing around with this concept.


For an apothecary alchemist or more paladin might be in order. Librarians are some form of caster, but likely divine like a cleric. Chaplin's could be war-priests or skalds. Techmarines could be alchemists, investigators, or clerics. Blood angels specifically would probably have ranks in bloodrager or barbarian to represent the red thirst/black rage. Being instruments of death, slayer is not off the table either. With their loyalty to the emperor and tactical abilities, a mountless(or mount if they get bikes) cavalier or samurai is another good call. Musketeers get a gun instead of a mount and the levels stack with fighter levels for fighter specific feats. The order of the warrior, hero, lion, and sword work for almost any chapter. Some chapters would qualify for other orders. The main thing would be avoiding magical classes outside of Librarians and maybe the Apothecaries, Techmarines and Chaplains.
I don't quite get how levels can stack in that sense for feats etc. maybe I'm to new to the game for this or my parties just always play boring characters within the same class and archetype :P, but I wasn't aware it could "stack" as such. I agree we shouldn't use magical classes except for specific cases, and as far as blood angels are concerned Savage Technologist would probably work well, having good synergy with guns and melee alike.


For prestige classes, the Golden Legionnaire make for good Adaptus Custodes. Hell Knight could apply to almost any marine, and for veterans with experience against Xenos(or any marine who served in the deathwatch) Student of war fits the bill.
I personally haven't used prestige classes much but these all seem to hit the nail on the head, will definitely keep them in mind.

Thank you so much for your in depth response, you have given me a lot of inspiration. As I already mentioned in another comment in this thread I am actually planning on making a campaign out of this to DM so even though I initially set out to just make a "standard" Space Marine (as far as any Space Marine can even be Standard) you've gone even beyond helping me with this goal and helped inspire me to go even further. Thank you very much!

[Arramzy]

Good to hear, hope you get some use out of those.

These are the ones I made for 40K weapons:

Bolters:

- Bolt Pistol: DMG (5d8), Range (100’), Clip (8), ROF (Semi)
- Bolt Gun: DMG (5d8), Range (300’), Clip (24), ROF (Semi)
- Heavy Bolter: DMG (5d12), Range (400’), Clip (60), ROF (Auto)

Plasma:

- Plasma Pistol: DMG (7d10*), Range (100’), Clip (10), ROF (Single)
- Plasma Gun: DMG (7d10*), Range (300’), Clip (20), ROF (Semi)

* = Deals 3d10 damage to the user on a natural 1 due to overheating, REF for half.

Melta:

- Inferno Pistol: DMG (9d8), Range (35’), Clip (3), ROF (Single)
- Meltagun: DMG (9d8), Range (65’), Clip (5), ROF (Single)

looking at those juicy weapons I am saddened that I will probably have to make do with a mere pistol this game :P thank you very much.

[ColorBlindNinja]

looking at those juicy weapons I am saddened that I will probably have to make do with a mere pistol this game :P thank you very much.

You're welcome, hope you make good use of them. :smallsmile:

[Geddy2112]

Well, going with what you said, I think your point buy can work for a "vanilla" generic chapter. 3 levels paladin for And thou shall know no fear, 2 for gun tank heavy armor, then the rest can be fighter or a la carte. I don't know if holy gun is any good though, as it gets redundant feats traded out for detect evil. Certainly marines can't detect evil, but see if your DM will let you get other feats instead. Also it would get you a second battered gun, which could get you a bolter and a bolt pistol. I do like tempered champion for 4+levels of pally since it nabs you feats that focus on the emperor's favorite weapon, the bolter. I think the rest as a fighter would help give the feats-you can get the unbreakable archetype for endurance and diehard, as well as a ton of other resistances. The main thing is to replace bravery, which is useless with aura of courage. Fighter also gives armor training, letting you use more of your dex for AC and reducing the penalty of your power armor full plate.

Having a melee backup for any gunslinger or paladin is a great idea, and being able to wield a one handed sword and gun is pretty boss. Make sure you have a strategy to reload with a free hand, via quick draw, gun twirling etc.
For your levels stacking or counting as, it says in specific archetypes-like the tempered champion counts as fighter levels for fighter specific feats. This helps mix and match so you can advance other class features by multiclassing, or help archetypes of a different class get fighter feats, etc.

So, overall, I would see the following:
Human Str 14, Dex 15(+2), Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 14
Level 1: Gun tank-Gunsmithing feat, point blank shot, rapid reload
Level 2: Holy gun-extra grit(see if your DM will give you an extra feat here instead of gunsmithing, this would put you a level ahead on your feat tree)
Level 3: Holy gun, Rapid Shot
Level 4: Holy gun, increase dex to 18.
Level 5: Unbreakable Fighter, precise shot, endurance, diehard
Level 6: Fighter, two weapon fighting
Level 7: Fighter, weapon focus pistol
Level 8: Fighter, snap shot
Level 9: Fighter, sword and pistol
Level 10: Fighter, quick draw, heroic recovery(unbreakable bonus)
Level 11:Dazzling Display
Level 12: Fighter, gun twirling

For skills, max intimidate and perception, a rank in survival and you are gold.