Tempest Cleric starting feat for my first 5e campaign!!

[Ashkayel]

Hey guys!

We start our very first 5e campaign this Saturday (both the DM and the players). I will be a Human Variant Tempest Cleric. I've read various guides (including The Devout and the Dead here on GITP, really nice) but I'm still not sure about my build, and I'd like to have your opinion. Here's our party:

Human Tempest Cleric, Str based (me)
Human Eldritch Knight, Dex based with a rapier and a shield, duelist, with Magic Initiate at 1st level (probably BB or GFB)
Human Warlock

1) I had this vision of having a strong melee Cleric wielding a two-handed maul (allowing me to cast spells without needing WarCaster), but since I'll be the only healer, I needed to be tanky, so I thought about HAM for the reduced damage. My starting stats would be like that:

Str: 16 (including HAM)
Dex: 10
Con: 15
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

My goal was to take Resilient Con at lvl4, giving a big boost to my concentration saves (from 65% success to 80% success). HAM would help me stay alive, I would crush heads with my 2d6+3 damage, but my concentration rolls would be bad early on until I get Resilient Con at lvl4. For levels 1-2, with only 2-3 spells slots, that would not be too bad, since I can keep my spells for Healing Word and Cure Wounds. But later on, with more spell slots, Bless, Spirit Guardians or Call Lightning would be needed. And I think taking WarCaster at lvl8 would be overkill for the concentrations saves...

2) So then I thought, what about taking WarCaster at lvl1 (tweeking my stats to Str 16 and Con 14), allowing me to take a shield (but it's less sexy than a two-handed maul and my teammate already has a shield) and giving me way better odds at keeping my concentration (from 65% success to 88%). That way, at lvl4, I would not have any odd stat, I could go with either +2 Str, Con or Wis, depending on what I need most.

3) I could also take WarCaster at lvl1, and say "darn it, I'm going offense" and take a two-handed maul anyway! But with only 10 hp, no shield and no HAM, is it too risky? First 5e campaign here, can't judge properly...

In any case, I know that in later levels I will become less "fighter" and more "caster", but still, I like having a strong melee cleric, and we are only 3 players, I will need to keep bashing skulls. I could go with HAM and forget about concentration spells until Resilient Con, but even after that, it's not as good as having WarCaster (lvl4 it's 80% Res vs 88% WC, lvl5 it becomes 85% vs 91%).

What do you guys think?

BTW, we will be playing 12 hours sessions, only ~3 times a year. I don't know how often we will gain levels. So I'm not planning for lvl10+, but I also don't want to regret my choices at the second gaming session...

Thanks a lot

Ashkayel

[CTurbo]

Either HAM or Res(Con) would make a great starting feat for you. I have played a Tempest Cleric starting with each at different times. The difference between the two are, HAM is excellent early and falls off later while Res(Con) is just good early, but only gets better. Res(Con) is by far the better choice for level 4 so by that logic, I'd start with HAM.

You don't really NEED both Res(Con) and Warcaster, but both are great and do work well together. Also, bumping Wis up should also be a huge priority for you too.

level 1 - HAM
level 4 - Res(Con)
level 8 - +2 Wis

[Ashkayel]

Thanks CTurbo for your reply.

So with that in mind at levels 1-2 I would focus on concentration-free spells like healing. At level 3, with 6 spell slots, I will be in a position to start using Bless, even with a mere 65% success of keeping my concentration.

Are Con saves that often? Is being profiencient in Con really useful? Depends on the monsters we face, I guess.

[Mercurias]

Everything I post of pure theorycrafting, so your mileage may vary, but from what I reviewed it looks like HAM is likely a better survival feat.

If you were playing a domain with more of a caster setup, like Light or Arcane, I would argue for Warcaster harder, but I don’t see you using your reaction to cast Sacred Flame all the time.

[McSkrag]

I agree you need Res(CON) or Warcaster because you will need to maintain concentration.

You might consider Magic Initiate for your 1st level feat and take Booming Blade, Shield and another cantrip. BB will keep your single attack competitive in damage and help lock down enemies. Shield will give you an excellent defensive reaction to avoid those big hits which will be important on the front line.

[CTurbo]

Thanks CTurbo for your reply.

So with that in mind at levels 1-2 I would focus on concentration-free spells like healing. At level 3, with 6 spell slots, I will be in a position to start using Bless, even with a mere 65% success of keeping my concentration.

Are Con saves that often? Is being profiencient in Con really useful? Depends on the monsters we face, I guess.

Don't be afraid to use concentration spells early. Bless is awesome from the start. Use it. But yes holding concentration on important spells will always be important for you. Bless, Shield of Faith, Spirit Guardians, etc... will be staples for your entire career. Being a melee Cleric, you will roll Con checks often. HAM does help a lot.

For the record, I do believe the Tempest domain makes the best melee Cleric. Your reaction damage doesn't scale well, but it does help deter enemies from attacking you.

[KorvinStarmast]

Warcaster.

[Laserlight]

My current character is a Tempest, from L1 to L8 in CoS.

Melee will be important at low levels, but from L5 and on, you'll mostly be casting. Using a 2h weapon means you give up +2AC to do an extra point or two of damage on one attack per round against a target who's not important enough to use a spell on. So go sword and board.

Losing Concentration sucks. Warcaster helps a lot with that, so you probably want to take that by L4 at the latest.

If I were starting my (Dex based) character again, I would be really tempted to start with Spell Sniper and Booming Blade, and use whip & shield.

I took a dip of a level of Storm Sorc, because Chromatic Orb (Lightning) maximized with Channel Div makes a nice single target spell. And you can get Shield as your other Sorc spell.

[Ashkayel]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Seems like there is no concensus!

I don't want to go with Booming Blade (via Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper), my brother will already be using that. I understand that would be the best way to create a long term melee cleric, tho.

It's really between HAM + Res(Con) with 2handed maul, or WarCaster + [whatever at level4] with warhammer and shield (or with a 2handed maul if that's viable, but it seems like it isn't).

Thematically, I like HAM + Res(Con) better, but I fear that WarCaster with shield might be better. Better AC, better concentration save %. Keeping that Bless for the whole fight seems just too good...

[djreynolds]

IMO, skip HAM.

Early war caster us stronger, it's about a +5 average. Where as resilient con is better at level 8 to 12.

Sounds crazy, max out wisdom. It affects your spell DC.

I might take resilient con for human variant at creation if only to level out con from 15 to 16.

Then max out wisdom.

Also, if lightning is your thing, elemental adept is strong.

So for me, take your pick war caster or resilient con at level 1. Then wisdom level 4. Then elemental adept at 8th. 12 max wisdom 20.

Good luck

[CTurbo]

I've played 4 completely different Temptest Clerics from your normal Warhammer + Shield + Warcaster guy, to Spell Sniper + Whip + Booming Blade guy, to a 2 handed Great sword melee first guy, and they're all great. Such a great class. The 4th character was a Protector Aasimar and she was also the face of the group with a good Cha and appropriate skills.

For the greatsword build, I knew he would be melee focused from the start. I started HAM at level 1, and boosted Str to 18 level 4. I did start with Warhammer and shield but dropped the shield for a magic greatsword and used it from then on. I didn't NEED the extra 2 AC but then again this specific Tempest did not rely on conc spells all the time like normal. Spirit Guardians was the one I used the most. Took Sentinel at level 8. Even though this guy was really unoptimized for a normal Cleric, he was still a great character and a ton of fun. The Tempest Cleric is one of the more diverse subclasses IMO. Healing was always a last resort for my 4 guys.

Warcaster vs Res(Con) is a toss up. I like Res better of the two to start since it gives you the extra +1 Con, but if starting with an even Con allows you an extra couple points somewhere else important, Warcaster is a solid choice. I wouldn't take both until Wis is maxed. Don't undervalue maxing Wis even for a melee focused build. Even for my greatsword guy I eventually rarely used the attack action after levels 6-8ish although I still used my reaction to attack a lot.

[CTurbo]

Honestly, it depends on how YOU want to play. Look at the spell list. You could still be an awesome Tempest Cleric and avoid all concentration spells. Then you could ignore both Warcaster and Res, start with HAM, and then go back and forth putting +2 in Str and Wis.

But if you are planning on relying on concentration spells, nothing sucks worse than failing that check. Once I cast Spirit Guardians from my highest slot(6th) and immediately lost concentration. I saw a guy take Warcaster, Res(Con), AND Lucky and he never failed a con check lol.

[Klaus Teufel]

As a noob: What's 'HAM'?

[CTurbo]

As a noob: What's 'HAM'?

The Heavy Armor Master feat

[Petrocorus]

You're probably going to be the primary tank of the party while needing to keep you concentration on Bless or Shield of Faith, etc.
So, i would be more defensive and go Hammer & Board. A better AC, especially at low level will be important.

Given that you probably won't have the ASI available for GWM, and you're not going to have Extra Attack, your melee damages will never going to be really good, even with a maul, except maybe at low level. I believe you can have a better damage output in a lot of situation with Word of Radiance. Less relevant tactically maybe, because spread over several foes, it will depend on the situation.

As others have said, HAM is very good at low level, but doesn't scale. I would probably choose Resilient (Con) at first so Str 15 and Con 16.

Your spells list and channel divinity can make you an amazing blaster.

[chando]

Go with your gut, with what you want to play.

HAM is best early game and Variant Human rounding that Str is the only case i would ever take it. It will help a lot in those early levels and compensates the fact that you wont be using a shield most of the time. That being said, nothing stops you from carring a shield (with your church symbol on it, no less!) and a one-handed weapon for the ocasional AC buff. Chances are your group find any no finesse one-handed melee weapon that's magic that could be your weapon, even if you want to use two-handed in the case of a versatile weapon.

Considering it is your fisrt campaing do not worry to much, it will help you survive, fill any role you want with your cleric, later on it will still reduce the DC of your concentration saves by 1-2 points. You campaing might not even go past level 5 and until that taking less damage every round, sometimes multiple times in the same round, and smshing heads with a maul feels great, go for it.

remember to check out spiritual weapon once you are 3rd level. its like extra attack-lite that uses a bonus action and no concentration, and can be eslewere in the battlefield. Yes it can be a maul (but it will still deal the same damage, unless upcast). you could flavor as a warhammer, then when upcast as a maul and each spell level a bigger hammer. Spiritual Guardians could be flying mauls mauling people. STOP Hammer Time :P

Have fun!

[Nhorianscum]

If you just want to go for a 2hander then go for it. With 18-20 AC at first level and HAM you're plenty tanky. That said long term weapon use viability on cleric absolutely demands scagtrips. 1 level of storm sorc can net these with a nice mobility boost.

If you absolutely do not want to scagtrip just swap to a shield and a (rarely used) one hander at 5th level. Toll the dead/Word of radiance are just better so stowing our weapon is no big deal here. No need for warcaster, res (con) works just fine.

All that said your proposed build will work just fine.

[nickl_2000]

As a noob: What's 'HAM'?

A delicious cured meat coming from a pig, also known as Canadian bacon :smallbiggrin: (or Heavy Armor Mastery feat as others have mentioned)


Thanks for the replies, guys. Seems like there is no concensus!

I don't want to go with Booming Blade (via Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper), my brother will already be using that. I understand that would be the best way to create a long term melee cleric, tho.

It's really between HAM + Res(Con) with 2handed maul, or WarCaster + [whatever at level4] with warhammer and shield (or with a 2handed maul if that's viable, but it seems like it isn't).

Thematically, I like HAM + Res(Con) better, but I fear that WarCaster with shield might be better. Better AC, better concentration save %. Keeping that Bless for the whole fight seems just too good...

There isn't going to be a consensus since there are many, many ways to play a character. HAM, PAM, Warcaster, Resilient Con, MI, Healer are all great choices. You are going to have to decide on your own after all of it :)

[KorvinStarmast]

Keeping that Bless for the whole fight seems just too good... My human tempest cleric agrees with you. He didn't get the feat until after 4th level since we started the game with no vHuman and no feats, per DM guidance.

Keeping Bless up is a large benefit to the party. (Well, it was in our party).

So, I would be more defensive and go Hammer & Board. A better AC, especially at low level will be important.
Absolutely agree. Also, keep a couple of javelins for thrown attacks. At low level, more effective than Sacred Flame.
Compare 1d6 +2 (assuming 14 Str), +4 to hit, with 1d8 with a spell DC of 12 or 13 versus Dex. (Goblins laugh at Sacred Flame ...)

[nickl_2000]

My human tempest cleric agrees with you. He didn't get the feat until after 4th level since we started the game with no vHuman and no feats, per DM guidance.

Keeping Bless up is a large benefit to the party. (Well, it was in our party).

It is really hard to beat an extra 1d4 to hit and 1d4 on saves for pretty much the whole party.

Note: Bless does also help you keep concentration giving you a 1d4 bonus to the rolls.

[KorvinStarmast]

It is really hard to beat an extra 1d4 to hit and 1d4 on saves for pretty much the whole party.

Note: Bless does also help you keep concentration giving you a 1d4 bonus to the rolls. Yes indeedy, if the cleric is one of the three so blessed.
(We tend to parties larger than 4, so I often bless three others so max out benefit ... depends).

[Ashkayel]

Hammer Time! Haha

Nice about Bless helping my concentration saves! It improves the HAM build at lvl1 to 77% chances of success, compared to 91% for Warcaster. At lvl4 it becomes 91% vs 99% success. We are a party of 3 so I will always be blessed.

It might also come down to the ability to cast spells with a shield and 1-handed weapon. If I go with the HAM+Res(Con) build, I'll start with a maul, but if at one point I get a magical 1-handed weapon (any Str weapon would be mine as our fighter is Dex), I will struggle to cast spells that demand a free hand. I know I can put away my hammer after my attack and take it back the next round, but that still is not ideal (can't make OA). Or did I get the ruling wrong?

If I start with Warcaster, I could start with a 2-handed maul, a hammer + shield, or both! (wearing my holy symbol on my armor) And that way I could pump my Wis to 18 at lvl4. Of course, a cleric with 14 Con and no shield isn't that tough. But at least Warcaster gives me the flexibility of using 2-handed weapons or weapon and shield.

Such a hard choice! The game is this Saturday so I'll have to decide at one point!

[CTurbo]

As far as I know, Clerics do not HAVE to have Warcaster to cast spells when holding a weapon and shield since they can put their holy symbol on their shield. The holy symbol covers the S and M components. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how myself and my groups have always ruled it.

Your original idea of starting HAM and then taking Res(Con) at 4 is fine. You'd want +2 Wis at 8 for sure.

Alternatively, you could start 16 Str, 16 Con, 16 Wis with either HAM or Res(Con) and bump Wis to 18 at level 4

HAM is a good fun feat for you, but is the most unnecessary of the options if that helps any.

IMO, the most optimized "traditional" Cleric would have either Warcaster or Res(Con) AND 18 Wis by level 4

But honestly any of the the combinations of Res, Warcaster, HAM, and +2 Wis would be fine in the end.

[Petrocorus]

As far as I know, Clerics do not HAVE to have Warcaster to cast spells when holding a weapon and shield since they can put their holy symbol on their shield. The holy symbol covers the S and M components. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how myself and my groups have always ruled it.


You're right. Several Sage Advices (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/04/holy-symbol-on-shield/) confirmed this.
And icing on the cake, i believe it may also be possible to engrave the holy symbol on the weapon, or for the weapon to be the holy symbol itself. Like if you're a cleric of Thor and your weapon is a hammer.

Clerics really don't have to worry about S or M component.

[CTurbo]

Ok I'm gonna throw this idea out there, and kick myself for doing so because I am usually an advocate for pure classes, but will you be starting at level 1, and how far do you think you'll get as far as leveling?

Consider starting Fighter 1 and then going Tempest the rest of the way. Starting Fighter gets you Con saves, a fighting style, and Second Wind. You could take Defense for +1 AC or dueling for +2 damage for one handed weapons. I don't care for the GWF style.

So yeah it puts your spell progression back 1 level which isnt THAT bad, but you could basically have Con Saves and HAM to start with. You could then bump Wis at level 5 and you'd know by the next ASI whether or not you need Warcaster, or +2 Str or Wis or whatever

[Ashkayel]

Thanks for the idea, CTurbo, but our DM stated he doesn't want multi-classes (first game for him, and for us), so it's out of the question.

Hmm, interesting that the shield hand can be used for the semantic component! Didn't know that.

Thanks for the comments, all. You have been very helpful. My mind is not 100% done yet, I will read again all the comments tomorrow (and new ones, if any) and try to make my mind, haha!

[Klaus Teufel]

Ok. Now, what's a "scagtrip"?

[CTurbo]

Ok. Now, what's a "scagtrip"?

Booming Blade and/or Green Flame Blade are usually what they're talking about.

[CTurbo]

Thanks for the idea, CTurbo, but our DM stated he doesn't want multi-classes (first game for him, and for us), so it's out of the question.

Hmm, interesting that the shield hand can be used for the semantic component! Didn't know that.

Thanks for the comments, all. You have been very helpful. My mind is not 100% done yet, I will read again all the comments tomorrow (and new ones, if any) and try to make my mind, haha!

Fair enough. It was worth a thought.


You know the more I think about it, since this is your very first character and campaign, I think I'd keep it simple. I'd start Res(Con) and take +2 Wis at 4. Probably plan on maxing Wis at level 8, but by then you'd know whether or not you'd need Warcaster or not. Res(Con) + Warcaster + 20 Wis may seem boring on paper but it would allow you to be the best Cleric possible. It's just insanely effective.

You're going to love the Tempest and probably want to play one again in the future. Like I said, I've played 4 of them. You can keep your 2 handed weapon idea in your pocket for another time. Either way, I say decide how you want to play and commit to it either way instead of trying to do it all.

1. Build for super tanky + unbreakable concentration + blasting with a little melee thrown in

Or

2. Build for super tanky + melee + blasting with some other spells thrown in

Either way you want to max Wis

[Azgeroth]

personally, drop the maul, take a warhammer, you can always 2h it if you want to. and can much more easily swap between shield+1h and 2h.

most people agree that combat caster advantage on save is roughly equal to +4.5 on the save. res(con) is going to give you a +3 at level 1.

for that reason, i would take warcaster at 1st. bump wis at 4, and take res(con) at 8. (at that point its a +4 to con saves.)

you are a cleric, so spellcasting is your jam. but if you really really want to focus melee, then..

1, Sentinel, 4. +2 Str, 8. GWM

but thats really the fighters jam, having only a 3 person party, and being the only full spellcaster you really should focus on spellcasting, thats not to say your not a front liner, there is only 3 of you, your definately going to be a front liner, for that same reason combat casting is a better option. i would drop HAM altogether, yes it is really nice at lower levels, but your sacrificing spellcasting potential for it. and at higher levels its going to drop off significantly in value, where as combat casting is always going to be valueble.

[HappyDaze]

You're right. Several Sage Advices (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/04/holy-symbol-on-shield/) confirmed this.
And icing on the cake, i believe it may also be possible to engrave the holy symbol on the weapon, or for the weapon to be the holy symbol itself. Like if you're a cleric of Thor and your weapon is a hammer.

Clerics really don't have to worry about S or M component.

Look further; that shield can only be used if there is an M component. If there is only S (without M) component, then you need a free hand or War Caster.

[ad_hoc]

Warcaster is only worth it if you think you are going to get OAs regularly. And then, only if your cantrips are better than your weapon attacks.

Resilient (Con) is better if you are just looking to improve your concentration saves. The difference in the end is +1 Con or half an ASI.

[Ashkayel]

The problem with starting Res(Con) is that it leaves me with an odd stat (Str or Con) since I can’t (and don’t want to) start my stats at 15-15-15-8-8-8.

I could start 15 Str, 16 Con, 16 Wis with Res(Con), take +1 Str +1 Wis at lvl4 and Observant at lvl8 (even tho we might never get there!). Or just go Wis at lvl4 and leave my Str at 15. Or 16 Str, 15 Con at start (better damage early), lvl4 +1 Con +1 Wis (pumping my hp and concentration), Observant at lvl8...

I don’t know if I’ll get OA regularly, it’s our first game for all of us.

Lots of good builds, I guess!

[CTurbo]

The problem with starting Res(Con) is that it leaves me with an odd stat (Str or Con) since I can’t (and don’t want to) start my stats at 15-15-15-8-8-8.

I could start 15 Str, 16 Con, 16 Wis with Res(Con), take +1 Str +1 Wis at lvl4 and Observant at lvl8 (even tho we might never get there!). Or just go Wis at lvl4 and leave my Str at 15. Or 16 Str, 15 Con at start (better damage early), lvl4 +1 Con +1 Wis (pumping my hp and concentration), Observant at lvl8...

I don’t know if I’ll get OA regularly, it’s our first game for all of us.

Lots of good builds, I guess!

It's wouldn't be the end of the world to start 14 Con

[Theodoric]

Also, if lightning is your thing, elemental adept is strong.
Tempest Cleric doesn't actually do all that much lightning damage. Using an ASI on boosting a damage type that's only used by 1 spell and 1 class ability seems like a bit of waste to me.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's wouldn't be the end of the world to start 14 Con Amen to that . My default starting Con is 14, or 13 with a Res con feat. For all characters, though one monk started with a 12.

[Petrocorus]

Look further; that shield can only be used if there is an M component. If there is only S (without M) component, then you need a free hand or War Caster.
Oh my...... this is actually true. Missed this.




I could start 15 Str, 16 Con, 16 Wis with Res(Con), take +1 Str +1 Wis at lvl4 and Observant at lvl8 (even tho we might never get there!). Or just go Wis at lvl4 and leave my Str at 15. Or 16 Str, 15 Con at start (better damage early), lvl4 +1 Con +1 Wis (pumping my hp and concentration), Observant at lvl8...

But do you really need more than 15 Str? You need it for full plate, but do you need 16?

I know you want to hit stuff in melee. Hitting stuff is fun and good. But unless you invest feats and sacrifice some AC on this, you will in many situations do more damages and more reliably with Toll the Dead and Word of Radiance than with a weapon attack, even once you get Divine Strike at level 8. At least from level 5 and onward.

So obviously, you'll make the call depending on your taste, but it's better to know this beforehand than to discover this when you're level 6.


It's wouldn't be the end of the world to start 14 Con
As a rule of thumb, this is totally true. In this particular case, this is quite true too about Strength.

[GreyBlack]

If it isn't Warcaster, you're doing it wrong.*

Look at those benefits; the advantage on concentration saving throws alone is beneficial enough, given how often you'll be in melee with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon up. The other parts of the feat are just gravy.

*Disclaimer: You're not actually doing it wrong. There is no wrong way to play D&D, as long as you're having fun. If there was a "right" way to play, I would tell you that Cleric isn't it, but we're not talking about my personal beliefs about the Cleric class.

[Ashkayel]

Ok guys, it’s settled!

It will take War Caster at lvl1, with 16 Str, 14 Con, 16 Wis. War Caster gives me the best concentration saves in the first levels (even at 14 Con, it still is better than Res(Con) with 16 Con). At lvl4 I’ll probably go with +2 Wis, but I’ll see then.

For my loadout, I really want to try that 2-handed maul, but I know the AC boost of a shield is important. So I’ll start with a maul but keep a shield on my back and a flail at my belt! If a combat becomes too dangerous I’ll drop my maul and take my shield. I’ll wear my holy symbol strapped on my chest so no problem whatever weapon I’m using. Eventually I’ll decide which loadout I prefer. A magic weapon or magic shield could also decide for me :)

Since I will have maul + flail + shield on me, I won't start with throwing weapons on top of that, even though I could carry them. I just find that would be silly, right from the start with too much equipment. I'll rely on Sacred Flame for my ranged attacks (it seems Toll the Dead might be better, but I'll stick to PHB cantrips and the necrotic damage doesn't really fit my cleric).

Thanks for all your comments. I'm sure I would have fun with many builds, but I'm confident I won't regret this one!

[CTurbo]

Sounds good! You're gonna love it

[ad_hoc]

It will take War Caster at lvl1, with 16 Str, 14 Con, 16 Wis. War Caster gives me the best concentration saves in the first levels (even at 14 Con, it still is better than Res(Con) with 16 Con). At lvl4 I’ll probably go with +2 Wis, but I’ll see then.


This will feel like a good idea until you need to make a regular Con save with your life on the line.

[Ashkayel]

This will feel like a good idea until you need to make a regular Con save with your life on the line.
Haha, you're probably right. But at least I'll be really concentrated rolling that die! :biggrin:

[HappyDaze]

This will feel like a good idea until you need to make a regular Con save with your life on the line.

And then he saves about as well as 3/4 of the party does.

[noob]

If you face no monsters lucky can be a great feat(and it is still a bit useful when there is monsters but less useful than when there is no monsters).

[Ashkayel]

So, our first session is over!

I can't say I really needed War Caster the first 2 levels, with only 2 and 3 spell slots, I almost did not use Bless. I sure as hell would have used HAM more! Now we're level 3, and I'm really happy with War Caster. Longer fights are more common, keeping Bless the whole fight is godsend.

And I can't wait for next level to improve my Wis! More spells, better spell damage and healing, more WotS, etc. So many good things!

For my weapons, I started with my maul, but I quickly switched to shield + flail. I still keep my maul around as I sometimes still use it. We'll see.

Can't wait for next session!

[CTurbo]

So, our first session is over!

I can't say I really needed War Caster the first 2 levels, with only 2 and 3 spell slots, I almost did not use Bless. I sure as hell would have used HAM more! Now we're level 3, and I'm really happy with War Caster. Longer fights are more common, keeping Bless the whole fight is godsend.

And I can't wait for next level to improve my Wis! More spells, better spell damage and healing, more WotS, etc. So many good things!

For my weapons, I started with my maul, but I quickly switched to shield + flail. I still keep my maul around as I sometimes still use it. We'll see.

Can't wait for next session!


Awesome! How did your first max thunder/lightning damage go? lol

The very first time I ever used Destructive Wrath, it was actually the first encounter at level 2 and I used it on Wrath of the Storm to kill a guard for attacking me. It was awesome! Incidentally, he hit me for 3 damage which HAM completely negated hahaha

[Ashkayel]

Awesome! How did your first max thunder/lightning damage go? lol

The very first time I ever used Destructive Wrath, it was actually the first encounter at level 2 and I used it on Wrath of the Storm to kill a guard for attacking me. It was awesome! Incidentally, he hit me for 3 damage which HAM completely negated hahaha

Haha it went well! I used in on WotS most but then I realised it works not only with lightning damage, but with thunder damage too, so on Thunderwave it will be pretty awesome!

Spiritual Weapon is so good... always a nice bonus action for you!

[CTurbo]

Haha it went well! I used in on WotS most but then I realised it works not only with lightning damage, but with thunder damage too, so on Thunderwave it will be pretty awesome!

Spiritual Weapon is so good... always a nice bonus action for you!


Wrath of the Storm is NOT a good way to use it after level 2 IMO. I never used it on WotS again after that one time. Yes Thunderwave and Shatter will be your staple spells to use it on and both upcast pretty well. I once took out almost an entire pack of Gnolls headed our way with a single maxed Shatter. I killed 14 out of 22 of them at once. The DM said we weren't even supposed to fight that encounter, and it ended up being a cakewalk. He was trying to get us to go the other way hahaha

I purposefully let 5 Dire Wolves back me into a corner with Spirit Guardians up and then I maxed Thunderwave from a 3rd level slot killing all of 5 them.

[Ashkayel]

Wrath of the Storm is NOT a good way to use it after level 2 IMO. I never used it on WotS again after that one time. Yes Thunderwave and Shatter will be your staple spells to use it on and both upcast pretty well. I once took out almost an entire pack of Gnolls headed our way with a single maxed Shatter. I killed 14 out of 22 of them at once. The DM said we weren't even supposed to fight that encounter, and it ended up being a cakewalk. He was trying to get us to go the other way hahaha

I purposefully let 5 Dire Wolves back me into a corner with Spirit Guardians up and then I maxed Thunderwave from a 3rd level slot killing all of 5 them.

Haha wow! Yeah I probably won’t be using it on WotS anymore, unless I don’t have any spell slots left but still have WotS available.

[CTurbo]

Haha wow! Yeah I probably won’t be using it on WotS anymore, unless I don’t have any spell slots left but still have WotS available.

If you're running out of spells without using Destructive Wrath then you're not doing it right hahaha

[Ashkayel]

If you're running out of spells without using Destructive Wrath then you're not doing it right hahaha

Well if I only was able to make short rests for a while, my spell slots (and WotS) might be depleted but my DW will still be available.

I must manage my spells slots well between long rests, as my teammates get more abilities back after a short rest than me. For example, the warlock gets his spells back after a short rest. I only get my DW back, and I might not even be able to use it if I don’t have any spells or WotS available...

[Chronos]

Note that Warcaster's use of a spell to make attacks of opportunity isn't limited to cantrips: It can be anything with a casting time of 1 action that can target a single creature. At low levels, Guiding Bolt is pretty much a kill spell, and even at higher levels, it's a decent chunk of damage, and giving someone advantage is always nice. Or you could do something like Hold Person. Or Contagion, if your DM hasn't nerfed it.

[Petrocorus]

Note that Warcaster's use of a spell to make attacks of opportunity isn't limited to cantrips: It can be anything with a casting time of 1 action that can target a single creature.

I actually always be a bit confused about this.


The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.

Doesn't this means we can use a spell that could target more than one creature but it can only target one creature in this instance? Like GFB or EB?

[Corran]

Warcaster will boost your OA's, which will be important for you given that you play in a small group when none of the PC's is looking like they will be great at battlefield control. It also improves your concentration, which is something you will really need, especially once you get access to 3rd level spells (mainly spirit guradians, given party numbers and roles).

Resilient boosts CON by 1 (good enough), and unlike warcaster, it also boosts your constitution saves. Now, how often you will have to roll CON saves will depend a lot on the campaign. What types of monsters does the DM use for a start, but there are also other factors that can force you to roll CON saves (eg, in my group's last session, we rolled about half a dozen CON saves due to travelling in harsh climates, where each failed CON save led to adding a level of exhaustion). Generally, CON saves occur often enough. They are not tested as often as AC, but they come up a lot.
Now, boosting CON saves, also means that you are boosting concentration, as well as with warcaster. I'd say you need both. That's because in a small party, where you are basically only one of the two front characters, you will be targeted by lots of attacks. And that means taking lots of hits. A 87.75% chance (or thereabouts) is not good enough IMO, when you will be targeted as often as I assume your character will be, and when your biggest contribution to a combat encounter comes from a concentration spell which therefore you need to hold onto in order to keep seriously impacting the encounter. So, I would take both warcaster and resilient con (and I would not bother with HAM).

ps: Shields are sexy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OydCKdKlbM).

[Guy Lombard-O]

I know you want to hit stuff in melee. Hitting stuff is fun and good. But unless you invest feats and sacrifice some AC on this, you will in many situations do more damages and more reliably with Toll the Dead and Word of Radiance than with a weapon attack, even once you get Divine Strike at level 8. At least from level 5 and onward.

I'm curious, since I'm currently building a tempest cleric and planning his progression. I've certainly read threads which assure that a cleric's melee powers are so lacking that Divine Strike is a joke by 8th level. But I was planning on MI at 8 to pick up booming blade as well (and other goodness too, of course). Does the combination of a Divine Strike and a BB bump to a traditional sword & board melee cleric make it worthwhile to consider this build (with similar stat build to OP's)?

Obviously, there'll be some levels in there (5-7) where making melee attacks will be pretty silly. But switching it up after 8 seems like it might be fun?

[Petrocorus]

I'm curious, since I'm currently building a tempest cleric and planning his progression. I've certainly read threads which assure that a cleric's melee powers are so lacking that Divine Strike is a joke by 8th level. But I was planning on MI at 8 to pick up booming blade as well (and other goodness too, of course). Does the combination of a Divine Strike and a BB bump to a traditional sword & board melee cleric make it worthwhile to consider this build (with similar stat build to OP's)?

In theory, yes. BB don't care to be keyed on Int or Cha. But your melee attack will probably be keyed on Str.
Since your ASI are going to Res (Con), Warcaster, and Wis, you're probably going to have +5 to hit and your primary damage will be 3d8 +2 (avg: 15.5) and the secondary will be 2d8 (avg 9) if they trigger.

Toll the Dead will get an average of 9 or 13 (quite often), and Word of Radiance will be 7 multiplied by the number of available targets. Both with a save DC of 15 or 16. So, your melee damage are not ridiculous by any mean, but you may have lower chance to hit. The answer is hence situational. It varies depending of the kind of foes your facing. Against mooks, WoR will probably be much better. Against a single strong enemy, TtD or a melee attack will be better depending on the AC of this foe, and the number of spell slot you can invest on him.

It's always good to have more tool in your bag anyway.

[CTurbo]

I'm curious, since I'm currently building a tempest cleric and planning his progression. I've certainly read threads which assure that a cleric's melee powers are so lacking that Divine Strike is a joke by 8th level. But I was planning on MI at 8 to pick up booming blade as well (and other goodness too, of course). Does the combination of a Divine Strike and a BB bump to a traditional sword & board melee cleric make it worthwhile to consider this build (with similar stat build to OP's)?

Obviously, there'll be some levels in there (5-7) where making melee attacks will be pretty silly. But switching it up after 8 seems like it might be fun?


Yes Booming Blade + Divine Strike does make you hit hard when you do hit, BUT hitting with your weapon is rarely going to be the best way to use your action. Take it from somebody who has made and used a melee focused Tempest. It DOES work, but you'll still find yourself wanting to use your action for other things more times than not. Like I said previously, I picked up Sentinel and Warcaster and made great use of using Booming Blade with my reaction. I rarely cared about the bonus damage Booming Blade offered if the enemy moved and therefor rarely go to use it, but Booming Blade is still an extra 1d8 at level 5 and 2d8 at level 11. At level 8, hitting for 3d8+Str each time is not bad.

[Chronos]

Petrocorus, it can be any spell that can target a single creature. You can certainly use Sacred Flame or Guiding Bolt. You can use Hold Person, but even if you cast it from a high-level slot, you can only pick one target (a higher-level Hold Person says that you can pick additional targets, but not that you must: You're still allowed to target a single creature). You can't use Spirit Guardians, because that can't target a single creature.

[Galadhrim]

I'm curious, since I'm currently building a tempest cleric and planning his progression. I've certainly read threads which assure that a cleric's melee powers are so lacking that Divine Strike is a joke by 8th level. But I was planning on MI at 8 to pick up booming blade as well (and other goodness too, of course). Does the combination of a Divine Strike and a BB bump to a traditional sword & board melee cleric make it worthwhile to consider this build (with similar stat build to OP's)?

Obviously, there'll be some levels in there (5-7) where making melee attacks will be pretty silly. But switching it up after 8 seems like it might be fun?

I played this build to level 10. I had booming blade and warcaster. I was the off tank of our group, so I was typically trying to position myself in a crowd and hold creatures on me instead of squishier targets. I found myself using my action to make an attack relatively frequently, perhaps two to three per combat, and then at any opportunity I was able with an opportunity attack. Typically I would cast whatever I was going to concentrate on (usually spirit guardians or bless depending on the battle). Round two, would usually be Spiritual Weapon and a booming blade attack (casting bonus action spell limits you to casting only cantrips if you cast a spell with your action). After that, booming blade is quite hand to have for any time you need a bonus action spell. Luckily, you have several REALLY good low level bonus action spells to support your team with. If you need healing word, you have an efficient action to go with it. A well placed sanctuary can turn the tide of battle, and then you can contribute with your action as well with a solid damaging attack. You do have competition for your action, especially if you use Call Lightning, or if you need to maximize a shatter, but in my opinion it is a good thing to have competition for your action, your bonus action, and your reaction. That way, you are always using all three efficiently.

[Petrocorus]

(a higher-level Hold Person says that you can pick additional targets, but not that you must: You're still allowed to target a single creature).

So it is possible to use GFB, EB or Scorching Ray as long as you choose only one target.