Creating a Government and a New City-State

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Hey everyone! A little unorthodox question here, but what are your ideas when I ask you how you would create a government with your party? I'll describe the situation below, but I'm wondering what you think our next steps/goals should be as far as becoming more formalized and gaining more influence over the area.

One thought I've had is to start getting people from the village to act as ambassadors and travel to foreign lands and even nearby cities to spread the word about this new and booming trade port. The objective here would be to establish business and diplomatic relationships with everyone we can. What else can you think of?

Summary: We've taken residency in the former noble's estate and sworn to protect the small town about a mile away, which was the previous noble's domain. We're in the middle of the continent and wanted to be a big trade area, so we hired a man who lost his leg in the war and gave him a year's pay to allow us to turn him into a purple worm and dig a canal to the northern sea. Now we've established several different trading posts, permanent merchants, docks (air and sea), and a tavern. The people of the city like us so far because we're bringing business and giving jobs. I've claimed the title of prime minister while our rogue is something like the sheriff. Maybe the fighter can be the Lord Protector and our air magic avatar guy (homebrew class) can be the Sage of the Realm or something. Anyway we're using this PDF for fortress building to create expansions and such. http://gdnd.wikidot.com/stronghold

[Azgeroth]

do you have concent/approval/alliance to any other goverments? you mentioned you taking residence in the former nobles estate, how did the former noble become the noble?

typically speaking, if some government/crown didn't give you the writ for that land, your squatting.. and claiming to be an authority in some-one else's lands is a sure fire way to conflict..

either way, make sure your territory has some form of protection/warning system for its borders, be it look out posts with signal fires, roving patrols, or some other means of surveillance your going to want to know if some foreign force steps onto your land unannounced.

your also going to have to make sure all the townships and villages are on board, arrange taxes, and get some form of military/militia for the region up and running.

aside from security both military and political (domestically) you need to assess your neighbours in the same way, if your a trading power then make use of that to help forge alliances, even if they are only trade agreements, that might be enough of an incentive to discourage attacks.

EDIT:

basically, sort out your SPERM!!!

Social, Political, Economical, Religious, Military.

any one of those could de-stabilize the region, and give you a seriously bad time..

[JackPhoenix]

How did you turn the man into purple worm? CR restrictions apply to most of the available means.

Do you have lawful rule of the area? Just because you've taken over a fort doesn't mean you have any right to it. You've mentioned "a noble", which suggest he's not the highest-ranking aristocrat around. "Middle of the continent" also doesn't suggest it's just a wild territory where you can do as you please. Is his boss (propably some sort of king) OK with your presence? Otherwise, you may be up for a nasty surprise if the proper ruler decide your "city state" is rebelling from his rule.

Do you even have any resources? Just because you're building trade infrastructure doesn't mean people will come to trade with you. You'll need to have something valuable to offer. "Middle of the continent" sounds like it should've been an important trade route already, why it wasn't before you've moved in?

[Man_Over_Game]

With a canal, you'll want to offer resources specialized for working with it. Make sure the town has some means of providing travel and a well-established port. For the town to thrive, it'll need to accumulate taxes off of the trading going on. The players can hire someone for the itty-gritty details, but the town needs a decent port right off the bat to support that kind of stuff. As said before, having the town offer up their own services (ferries, fishing, information) is another solid way to improve the town.

Determine how each trade route terminates. If the canal provides access to a region controlled by dwarves, perhaps establishing services directly towards dwarves is a solid way to build up relations. Perhaps a translation service, business firm, or merchant companions (mercenaries, captains, laborers) can provide more noise for your town.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

do you have concent/approval/alliance to any other goverments? you mentioned you taking residence in the former nobles estate, how did the former noble become the noble?

typically speaking, if some government/crown didn't give you the writ for that land, your squatting.. and claiming to be an authority in some-one else's lands is a sure fire way to conflict..

either way, make sure your territory has some form of protection/warning system for its borders, be it look out posts with signal fires, roving patrols, or some other means of surveillance your going to want to know if some foreign force steps onto your land unannounced.

your also going to have to make sure all the townships and villages are on board, arrange taxes, and get some form of military/militia for the region up and running.

aside from security both military and political (domestically) you need to assess your neighbours in the same way, if your a trading power then make use of that to help forge alliances, even if they are only trade agreements, that might be enough of an incentive to discourage attacks.

EDIT:

basically, sort out your SPERM!!!

Social, Political, Economical, Religious, Military.

any one of those could de-stabilize the region, and give you a seriously bad time..

As far as the estate goes, I'm not sure how the noble's family originally got the land. He inherited it and it had been in his family for over 100 years. The village likes us, and we've actually arranged to "save them" once again. We investigated some missing people and outed one of the villagers as a sort of double-agent working with bandits and a hill giant to make money human trafficking. We set the villagers free, turned the guy in, and best of all befriended the giant. The village doesn't know that though. Turns out the giant is out of money and is just trying to get across the continent to meet with a lady giant (he's definitely not getting cat fished...). So we convinced him to make a big show of attacking the village and then we'd save the day. We gave him enough money to get him the rest of the way.

I think small taxes would be a good next step in order to help fund a better armed/regulated militia for the town and our compound. After that we can start sending emissaries into other cities and nations to build relationships and report back on vital intel.

Thanks for the help!

[DrowPiratRobrts]

How did you turn the man into purple worm? CR restrictions apply to most of the available means.

Do you have lawful rule of the area? Just because you've taken over a fort doesn't mean you have any right to it. You've mentioned "a noble", which suggest he's not the highest-ranking aristocrat around. "Middle of the continent" also doesn't suggest it's just a wild territory where you can do as you please. Is his boss (propably some sort of king) OK with your presence? Otherwise, you may be up for a nasty surprise if the proper ruler decide your "city state" is rebelling from his rule.

Do you even have any resources? Just because you're building trade infrastructure doesn't mean people will come to trade with you. You'll need to have something valuable to offer. "Middle of the continent" sounds like it should've been an important trade route already, why it wasn't before you've moved in?

The purple worm incident was a classic case of our DM dangling a Wand of True Polymorph in front of us at a low level and thinking we wouldn't get our hands on it. It's broken, but it's worked every time so far. The DC keeps climbing so we're getting more wary about using it.

We do own the land legally, and as long as the village is cool with us ruling then it shouldn't be an issue. Unless bigger fish get involved as you've mentioned. But for now they're happy to have someone looking out for them again.

Our trade value comes with owning the lake/canal that never existed before. It's a lot faster to travel to and from the oceans by water rather than by land. Safer too by in large.

[HappyDaze]

Do you even have any resources? Just because you're building trade infrastructure doesn't mean people will come to trade with you. You'll need to have something valuable to offer. "Middle of the continent" sounds like it should've been an important trade route already, why it wasn't before you've moved in?

Maybe "middle of the continent" was fantasy South Dakota?

[DrowPiratRobrts]

With a canal, you'll want to offer resources specialized for working with it. Make sure the town has some means of providing travel and a well-established port. For the town to thrive, it'll need to accumulate taxes off of the trading going on. The players can hire someone for the itty-gritty details, but the town needs a decent port right off the bat to support that kind of stuff. As said before, having the town offer up their own services (ferries, fishing, information) is another solid way to improve the town.

Determine how each trade route terminates. If the canal provides access to a region controlled by dwarves, perhaps establishing services directly towards dwarves is a solid way to build up relations. Perhaps a translation service, business firm, or merchant companions (mercenaries, captains, laborers) can provide more noise for your town.

These are all good industries we haven't cracked into yet. The port will be finished within a couple of weeks, though it's already functional, and there's room for expansion. I think the lake is about 2 miles wide. Taxing the trade will be a big one as we progress.

Fishing, information about the region/tour guides, business firms, mercenaries, labor, translation, etc. are all great ideas! Thanks!

[Unoriginal]

To whom did you swear to protect the town? Were the nobles you took the domain of allied or vassals with other lands nearby?

[DrowPiratRobrts]

To whom did you swear to protect the town? Were the nobles you took the domain of allied or vassals with other lands nearby?

You know, we haven’t asked the people of the town yet so we’re not sure. We swore to the people to protect the town. We “saved” the town from the stone giant last night and that went really well. They seem to be on board with growing and expanding. I put my name in the hat to run as prime minister, and I’m pretty sure none of them know what a prime minister is but they like us a lot!

Part of my objective over the next session or two is to figure out more about the surrounding nations and cities by asking the people and sending some of them to gather information.

[Unoriginal]

Are you playing Storm King's Thunder?

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Are you playing Storm King's Thunder?

Negative. It's a made up campaign by my DM. I think he drew a lot from Brandon Sanderson novels, but he's not taking many things one for one from them.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Look to history! When Rome was founded no one wanted to live there. The only people who wanted to live there were criminals, exiles, and vagabonds who didn't have anywhere else to go.

Property in this middle of nowhere village has probably been pretty cheap, now that it has expanded and has more prospects how has that property's value changed? The property owners ( the original villagers) are probably becoming landlords or are on their way to becoming patricians.

An Inland Canal is a pretty big deal, even if you don't have an export. You've opened up markets not only for yourself, but to all your Neighbors. Taxing trade and tariffs will be a great source of income! Beware your rivals who grow jealous of your control over the canal, and their resentment of tariffs. Look at the USA and Panama's history!

How feudal are Societies in the area? If a bunch of skilled laborers are abandoning their liege Lords, those Lords are going to notice, and they won't like it.

Maybe try and become a hub for other adventuring parties? Incentivize them to come to your city to stock up on gear, use your canal to get from A to B, buy and sell magical items. They will keep the monsters and bandits away, and might make a worthy militia of your Neighbors start misbehaving.

If it were me, I'd set up a Roman style Senate of patricians, made up of the wealthiest or most influential property owners in the town. They will control the day to day rulership like infrastructure, economics, and law making. Meanwhile, your party acts as an oligarchy that deals with war, alliances, and any big Issues the Senators pass on to you. They feed the cash cow and you are free to still go on adventures.

Who knows? Maybe your next campaign we'll start in the city that you found in this campaign?

P.s. if the villagers are all idiots, buy up all the property cheap and sell it to NPCs that you think would make a better Senator. Keep the best/most land for yourselves, that's where your power and legitimacy comes from.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

If it were me, I'd set up a Roman style Senate of patricians, made up of the wealthiest or most influential property owners in the town. They will control the day to day rulership like infrastructure, economics, and law making. Meanwhile, your party acts as an oligarchy that deals with war, alliances, and any big Issues the Senators pass on to you. They feed the cash cow and you are free to still go on adventures.

Who knows? Maybe your next campaign we'll start in the city that you found in this campaign?

P.s. if the villagers are all idiots, buy up all the property cheap and sell it to NPCs that you think would make a better Senator. Keep the best/most land for yourselves, that's where your power and legitimacy comes from.

And thus our D&D campaign turns into a Civilization Sim game. Hahaha, I love it! I'm actually imagining the party as the high lords of a booming and world-changing metropolis 30-40 years from now. And it even makes sense that as the city grows, my character starts to believe that creating a powerful state with other powerful allies is probably the only way to defend the world against the current cult trying to take over the world. As the saying goes, fight fire with government power and bureaucracy!

[Ventruenox]

Glad to see that your campaign is progressing. I would direct your attention to a YouTube channel called "Hello Future Me". He has a number of videos on world building, his episodes on empires and on religion could be invaluable to your current strategies and goals. Basically, understand the people and their underlying motivations, then set yourself up in a position to supply their need.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Glad to see that your campaign is progressing. I would direct your attention to a YouTube channel called "Hello Future Me". He has a number of videos on world building, his episodes on empires and on religion could be invaluable to your current strategies and goals. Basically, understand the people and their underlying motivations, then set yourself up in a position to supply their need.

Haha, good to see you again. I'll definitely check that out!

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Those videos on world-building with empires turned out to be really helpful. If anyone else is interested in that sort of thing for your games, they're worth the time.

Additionally I posted a link in the following thread that leads to the podcast recording of how we came to be settled in this village as our home base. It's here if anyone is interested: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578594-5e-Podcast-Live-Play-(For-Those-Interested)

[Mad_Saulot]

Just because you legally own the land doesnt mean you can form your own government, thats like buying a few acres in the middle of england and claiming independance, the royal jackets will be on you so fast you wont even feel the sword go through your spleen.

To create a new nation you have to destroy/conquer an old one, or if the land is a frontier like the new world was before it became america, canada and mexico etc

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Just because you legally own the land doesnt mean you can form your own government, thats like buying a few acres in the middle of england and claiming independance, the royal jackets will be on you so fast you wont even feel the sword go through your spleen.

To create a new nation you have to destroy/conquer an old one, or if the land is a frontier like the new world was before it became america, canada and mexico etc

This is a conversation I'm having with my DM and party via text right now. He hasn't laid out all of the political situations in detail. When I asked some questions he actually said he would like our input, but he could just tell us if we wanted him to decide it all by himself. So I offered up kind of what I've been imagining to this point with the understanding that it might not match what he wants. I'm okay if it doesn't, but I've envisioned this area as sort of part of the frontier. Maybe the noble family was sent out by a city to start their own and maintain a partnership with them through trade in exchange for military protection. I'm waiting on a response.

[HappyDaze]

Just because you legally own the land doesnt mean you can form your own government, thats like buying a few acres in the middle of england and claiming independance, the royal jackets will be on you so fast you wont even feel the sword go through your spleen.

To create a new nation you have to destroy/conquer an old one, or if the land is a frontier like the new world was before it became america, canada and mexico etc

There's a real difference in many settings between owning the land and occupying it. Many times, only the sovereign has the ability to truly own land while other nobles (and sometimes others) are granted the privileges of occupying that land in the name of the sovereign. That privilege comes with obligations, not least among them a loyalty to the sovereign.

BTW, the frontier territories of North America were also formed into new nations from destroying/conquering old ones.

[Sigreid]

If they build a shrine to Asmodeus I'm sure he will help them and give good advice.

[Mad_Saulot]

There's a real difference in many settings between owning the land and occupying it. Many times, only the sovereign has the ability to truly own land while other nobles (and sometimes others) are granted the privileges of occupying that land in the name of the sovereign. That privilege comes with obligations, not least among them a loyalty to the sovereign.

BTW, the frontier territories of North America were also formed into new nations from destroying/conquering old ones.

Aye, The Star Nations, I should have mentioned them redskins, but aye, there is no where that isnt claimed by someone, only a young world where humanoids have not had the chance to propagate could be said to be free to claim without conquest.

[ImproperJustice]

Probably your best bet, is to declare yourselves as Stewards of the land, as opposed to actual rulers.
Then make contact with the reigning political power over the region, and explain the situation.
Be sure to communicate that you are not trying to be rivals or to support the idea of rebellion amongst the common folk.
Rather that you saw a threat tonthe integrity of the kingdom and stepped in until such time that a suitable replacement can be located.

In the interim, work on improving the land, but deemphasize a military build up, so that it does not look like you are trying to raise an army.

Then you really need to work on securing the favor of the cheif ruler in order to be appointed as Nobles or rulers of the territory.


Otherwise, you may be branded insurrectionists, and traitors to the crown / ruling body.

[HappyDaze]

I should have mentioned them redskins
That's considered a rather offensive term these days and probably shouldn't be used in this manner.

[Sigreid]

I think the bottom line is the first requirement is to be able to punish the powers that will try to take it away from you severely enough to discourage others.

[Mad_Saulot]

That's considered a rather offensive term these days and probably shouldn't be used in this manner.

Yeah I prefer to use the term Black Elk used: Star Nations, its cool, but no one I know knows what that is, and when I say Native American, Wilbur gets offended cos he thinks he's a native, sometimes basic physical descriptors work best. Plus Im not american so its unlikely to offend anyone where I am, and I only know one american (Wilbur) that lives where I am.