Clerics changing deity

[King of Nowhere]

I'm curious on what's your stance about it or if there is precedent, because it's going to be invoked soon in my campaign, although only for npcs.

A bit of context: in my world, the church of vecna has publicly renounced the most blatant forms of evilness and has refluffed vecna has a god of knowledge and discovery; one that would pay special attention to "forbidden" or "dangerous" areas of magic, but with some moral standards. This way, the church has gained acceptance, it has gone public, and it has slowly gained a lot of followers over seven centuries.
it was, however, all a ruse by the upper echelons, who wanted to be in a position where they could enact a big betrayal (which I'm going to leave vague on the offchance that one of my players read this) and try to take over the world.
Now, while the upper echelons of the church were in on the plan, there are a lot of clerics of vecna, some even of mid-high level, that knew nothing about it and would not approve. they were worshipping the refluffed "do necromancy with some moral standards" vecna, and they had no idea that their church was secretly ammassing an army of liches to try to take over the world.
So, those clerics are going to rebel against the new directives, and will lose their clerical powers as a result - a final proof that they were indeed cheated and vecna was different from what they believed. Those clerics are going to defect (if they can make it out alive, of course), and many of them will seek new deities; many will be furious and will try to stop their former masters.

How difficult do you think it would be for them to swap deity and regain their spellcasting? Do you think it should even be allowed at all, or should they be forced to start back from cleric level 1?

[Telonius]

PHB2 suggests that a Geas/Quest spell followed by an Atonement spell is appropriate for a change-of-deity (p. 192, "Divine Conversion" sidebar). This seems extremely reasonable to me, and would be along the lines of what I'd ask as a DM even if the book had never been published.

[Elvensilver]

[...]although only for npcs.
[...]
How difficult do you think it would be for them to swap deity and regain their spellcasting? Do you think it should even be allowed at all, or should they be forced to start back from cleric level 1?

It's entirely your call. Since it is just the npcs that lose their deity, you can decide whatever would work best in the campaign.
But in my opinion, losing your faith once will make it harder to bond(?) with another deity, and a lot of the former vecna-clerics will firstly be to focused on what they lost to seriously consider converting.
Fluffwise, converting should be possible: you know how to use a god's power as your own(up to a certain level) , you know how to handle the typical equipment, you still have your skills. Just not a source of power anymore. Now all that is left is trusting a powerful individual with your fate, who could at all times take this powers away from you - again.
So most clerics will for a long time at least stop being clerics. But maybe they mass convert to a cleric of spurned lovers who promises revenge?

[ezekielraiden]

For a situation where it is, in theory, the deity betraying the cleric rather than the other way around...I kinda feel like a less-onerous means would be appropriate. Geas + Atonement is for when you have backed out of the deal you sought, IMO.

Does Vecna have an important rival in this campaign? Perhaps they could offer a (somewhat) smoother path, if the two gods are sufficiently similar. Like the 4e conflict between Ioun and Vecna.

[Bronk]

Depending on level, they could take a level of Contemplative, which is called out as being a good transition class for deity change in its description in Complete Divine.

[zlefin]

one practical note is that many may suspect that these "ex" clerics of Vecna are just running a plot themselves to spy on the other churches. After all, with as big a con as the Vecna churhc ran, there could easily be more layers of plots. so I wouldn't expect other deities to be too accepting of the "refugees" and would require considerable proof of the new loyalties. so I concur with the geas/atonement suggestions.

[denthor]

They are Nuetral Evil even with ethical standards. They detect weak evil. Have that revealed first. Then before the con is revealed start have some leave. There first task hunt down evil the church they just left.

Civil(religious) War after the betrayal of their former clergy taking mid level temples they get some access from the new faith.

[the_david]

This is what Complete Divine has to say about Vecna:
"New clerics of Vecna are so carefully groomed that they often don't know what they're being trained for. Many think that they're joining an obscure sect of Boccob or Weejas. The truth revealed to them only after they've proved their willingness to do anything in exchange for power and knowledge."

While it doesn't state what happens with the ones that don't prove their willingness to do anything, I think we can safely assume that they serve the church in another way. After being killed and animated, ofcourse. After all, they can't reveal the big secret if they take it to their grave.

Ofcourse, you have to consider when a "new cleric" is granted spells for the first time. I'd assume not everybody is fit to be a cleric, and that clerics are called to serve a deity. In other words, they don't have to be clerics in the first place. Merely cultists. Anyway, it might be smart to ask yourself at what level the truthwould be revealed to the clerics.

Ofcourse, if the Cult of Ancev does have true clerics they have no reason not to become pissed at the gods. They could take levels in Urpriest, or they might make a deal with the devil. Some might just turn their backs to religion entirely, and most of them will be killed by higher cultists to be used for spare parts.

I don't think a god of penance/mercy would work in this case. They weren't really evil in the first place. Revenge might fit though.

[noob]

This is what Complete Divine has to say about Vecna:
"New clerics of Vecna are so carefully groomed that they often don't know what they're being trained for. Many think that they're joining an obscure sect of Boccob or Weejas. The truth revealed to them only after they've proved their willingness to do anything in exchange for power and knowledge."

While it doesn't state what happens with the ones that don't prove their willingness to do anything, I think we can safely assume that they serve the church in another way. After being killed and animated, ofcourse. After all, they can't reveal the big secret if they take it to their grave.

Ofcourse, you have to consider when a "new cleric" is granted spells for the first time. I'd assume not everybody is fit to be a cleric, and that clerics are called to serve a deity. In other words, they don't have to be clerics in the first place. Merely cultists. Anyway, it might be smart to ask yourself at what level the truthwould be revealed to the clerics.

Ofcourse, if the Cult of Ancev does have true clerics they have no reason not to become pissed at the gods. They could take levels in Urpriest, or they might make a deal with the devil. Some might just turn their backs to religion entirely, and most of them will be killed by higher cultists to be used for spare parts.

I don't think a god of penance/mercy would work in this case. They weren't really evil in the first place. Revenge might fit though.
Or maybe they go toward a god of mercy because most gods are jerks so they figure they have more chance to get accepted by a god of mercy.
Also you need to be Evil to become an ur priest but that is not a problem for someone who animated undead.(Evil and evil are only loosely correlated: you can never do any evil and be Evil with ways such as using the animate dead spell)

[Gnaeus]

There’s also the chance that some other god might accept their worship without their knowledge and grant them spells as they become a splinter sect. Some god with a trickery portfolio or who wanted to punish or steal a portfolio from vecna. Zagyg. Wee Jas. Kinda like Cyric did with followers of the Gods he stole portfolios from. So then you have evil Vecnans who are pretending to be neutral and neutral Vecnans who are actually worshipping someone else entirely without knowing.

[KillianHawkeye]

Under no circumstances should they lose their Cleric levels over this.

[King of Nowhere]

one practical note is that many may suspect that these "ex" clerics of Vecna are just running a plot themselves to spy on the other churches. After all, with as big a con as the Vecna churhc ran, there could easily be more layers of plots.
Well, of course no one is going to give shelter to those clerics without a lot of questions asked under zone of truth, dominate person, and sense motive. but that's not going to be a problem, my high-magic campaign world can supply enough of those.

This is what Complete Divine has to say about Vecna:
"New clerics of Vecna are so carefully groomed that they often don't know what they're being trained for. Many think that they're joining an obscure sect of Boccob or Weejas. The truth revealed to them only after they've proved their willingness to do anything in exchange for power and knowledge."

I don't use any of that stuff, a it would not fit my campaign,but I find it curious that a cleric can be tricked into worshipping a deity different than what he think. A deity keeping a secret agenda from the clerics, sure, but the clerics know full well who they are praying...

Anyway, most of those "schismatic" clerics are gonna be true neutral. And the church of vecna will be poised to try and conquer the world with an army of liches, and have decent odds at it. From what I read here, I think at least the clerics with decent levels will find easy acceptance with other deities, because those deities will gladly welcome any manpower in the sudden war. As for the clerics wanting to join the war against their former deity, well, if vecna wins their lives are forfeit, so it's an easy choice.

[Florian]

@King of Nowere:

It will depend on the setting you're using and how you have implemented divinity in the first place.

Using Golarion as an example, divinities have far less control over granting divine spells, so heresies, splinter groups as well as total misunderstandings tend to happen quite a lot (Two examples: The rather odd believe in the Godclaw pantheon understands Asmodeus as a potential Paladin deity, one rather large splinter church of Sarenrae, goddess of healing and mercy, is rather prone to conducting crusades and dealing "healing and mercy" with scimitars and lances...). In this setup, the original church would split, with the new "reformed" church sporting up to two different domains and maybe a different fav. weapon, but the old couch not being cut of from power.

[Psyren]

PHB2 suggests that a Geas/Quest spell followed by an Atonement spell is appropriate for a change-of-deity (p. 192, "Divine Conversion" sidebar). This seems extremely reasonable to me, and would be along the lines of what I'd ask as a DM even if the book had never been published.

^ That. Note that atonement doesn't work at all if they're not truly committed to the new outlook, so it's not like a player could use the spell to "shop/hop around."

Note that it's quite possible to convert without the spell if the deity wants them to, but this gives you a pretty concrete, mechanical way of achieving that goal if that's what you'd like.