Can this automatically kill an 18th-level wizard?

[Jon_Dahl]

Sorry, I don't know much about level 8 and level 9 arcane spells and I have never played high-level games, so I would need some advice on this matter from those playgrounders who have a solid understanding of the proper use of high-level spells and what's it like to be the most powerful wizard of any given continent.

The Set-Up

You an 18th-level wizard who lives in a cavernous underwater fortress beneath the equivalent of the Atlantic Ocean, some 150 miles from the closest shore. No one can threaten you and you are not worried about your security. You spend your days in the fortress reading and researching magic. You are reclusive by nature.

Choose your spells and how you have protected yourself, but leave lots of room for spells that help you with your research.

Done? Ready?

A powerful natural earthquake brings down the entire fortress and all the caverns in two rounds (the earthquake will last longer than that, though) The first round is just some shaking, but nothing special, but the second round is complete havoc. During those two rounds you fail to understand that it's a natural earthquake since you have only heard some legends about them. You don't know that much about natural phenomena.

You are in the bury zone and you take 31 points of damage because you rolled natural 1 for your Reflex save. You are completely buried and unable to move your limbs. You take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while buried. The closest open space (the sea floor) is 2,500 ft. from your location. The fortress and the caverns are completely destroyed. All your friends, which don't really like you that much, are busy with surviving the chaos that the earthquake caused for the next 12 hours.

Did you die? Good! That means that my players won't be able to say that "Hey, an earthquake can't kill an 18th-level wizard!" Negating such complaints is the objective of this thread.

[MeimuHakurei]

Well given that Wizards have Teleport, I'd probably be able to get away, even if I'll lose a good amount of resources from the collapse. I generally believe however that a Wizard shouldn't store all their goodies and spellbooks in a single place, in the event that you're cut off from a location. Salvaging some of the stuff may be possible with the right preparation.

Can this kill a Wizard? Absolutely. Is it a challenge? For sure. Can a Wizard be prepared and survive? Yes.

Still, Fighters and their kin are absolutely hosed in this situation.

[Quertus]

I think that there ways survive - teleporting to a different part the ocean floor, Continent contingent plane shift, shape change, incorporeal via gaseous form, minions, immunity to subdual damage, etc etc etc - but only the most paranoid of my casters (ie, none of the ones I created for this thought experiment) would survive.

EDIT - which I think is telling, but in the opposite direction from what the OP would like to hear. Something you can come up with in a few minutes for a game? Dead. Someone who's actually put thought and effort into their own survival? Probably survives.

[Crake]

Most of my wizards have a contingent teleport set to trigger when in negative hp, and a contingent revivify set to trigger upon death that would be reversable with revivify (which would then trigger the contingent teleport) followed by a contingent heal set to trigger when the contingent teleport goes off. So any time hp is brought to negatives, or death occurs, you automatically teleport to a safe location and are healed for 110hp. Pretty miniscule part of an 18th level wizard's wbl, but very useful for random death situations like this.

[Feantar]

I think that there ways survive - teleporting to a different part the ocean floor, Continent plane shift, shape change, incorporeal via gaseous form, minions, immunity to subdual damage, etc etc etc

I don't believe I am going to say this in a wizard thread, but I think planeshifting a continent is kinda out of your capabilities:P Yes I know you meant contingent, but I had to say it.

[Quertus]

I don't believe I am going to say this in a wizard thread, but I think planeshifting a continent is kinda out of your capabilities:P Yes I know you meant contingent, but I had to say it.

Lol! Darn autocorrect. :smallamused: Fixed.

However, there is always Wish, so plane shifting a continent is at least theoretically possible... (Happens all the time in Forgotten Realms...)

[Jon_Dahl]

Most of my wizards have a contingent teleport set to trigger when in negative hp, and a contingent revivify set to trigger upon death that would be reversable with revivify (which would then trigger the contingent teleport) followed by a contingent heal set to trigger when the contingent teleport goes off. So any time hp is brought to negatives, or death occurs, you automatically teleport to a safe location and are healed for 110hp. Pretty miniscule part of an 18th level wizard's wbl, but very useful for random death situations like this.

You are, of course, completely right, but I'm going to counter this: the destination of the teleport has collapsed during the earthquake and no longer exists. Thus the teleport fails. The destination of the teleport is usually the best place ("a safe location") near the coast, which is now completely ravaged by the earthquake plus a tsunami.

(Remember, I'm just trying to get this guy killed and I'm trying to counter any arguments my players would have in favor of sparing the life of this NPC.)

[Eldan]

Also, while the wizard may die, there's no reason he can't come back. I.e. contingent resurrection or reincarnation, clone, astral projection, a celestial bound to resurrect him, even just a few body parts kept at a temple.

The answer to this question is basically: how paranoid is the wizard? He has a million ways to avoid death, did he use any of them.

[JNAProductions]

This seems needlessly adversarial.

[Bronk]

Choose your spells and how you have protected yourself, but leave lots of room for spells that help you with your research.


I'll take a Ring of Freedom of Movement and a memorized teleport (or other escape) spell.

A Belt of the Wide Earth would allow him to teleport away without being able to move.

I think that under normal circumstances, a random mage would probably use some divination spells (or summon monster spells to obtain divination) to see if the lair was safe for long term use though. If this guy was an NPC, maybe he was cursed somehow, giving him bad information and making his preparations fail. Or... maybe the earthquake unleashes areas of antimagic, like in Myth Drannor...

[Goaty14]

you are not worried about your security

Choose your spells and how you have protected yourself, but leave lots of room for spells that help you with your research.

Without reading the spoiler, this is a contradiction. You are also the DM. Trying to beat the DM at his own game is a bad idea and generally not something you should play with your players. That said, my hypothetical wizard (who very much cares about not dying) has the following spells:
-Wall of Force (immobile structural support)
-Permanency (for the walls of force)
-Dimension Door (for getting inside his force-enclosed house without necessitating a vulnerable door)
-Contingency [Teleport]: If anything would subject Mr. Wizard to damage, he automatically teleports to Ye Olde Abandoned Tower some place in the general wilderness, where he keeps a spare spellbook filled with spells that'd assist him with getting back/retrieving his possessions (divinations, some conjurations (instant summons, planar binding), and some combat spells). The spellbook is hidden in a Leomund's Secret Chest, which he renews every 59 days.
-(Greater) Teleport (for the contingency. If his contingency throws him into a different Ye Olde Abandoned Tower, he casts Greater Teleport to get to the right place)
-Leomund's Secret Chest (for the spare spellbook)
-Shapechange: Mr. Wizard prefers to shapechange into Elemental Weirds (MMII), which allow him to cast (see below). He's also quite proficient in monster lore, and knows forms that give him regeneration (War Troll), make him immune to pressure damage (see Stormwrack), Incorporeal (Unbodied), Ethereal (Phase Spider, Ethereal Flicher), radiate antimagic fields (Beholder-types, Arcane Ooze). Forms that give immunity to types of damage (like the Storm Giant's immunity to bludgeoning damage), are nice but probably not needed.
At will and as
a free action, a weird can duplicate the
effect of any of the following divination
spells: analyze dweomer, clairaudience/clairvoyance, contact other
plane, detect thoughts, discern location, find the path, foresight,
greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues,
true seeing, vision. Caster level 18th; save DC 16 + spell level.
-Mind Blank (Mr. Wizard enjoys his privacy, and doesn't like being detected by other creatures)
-Submerge Ship (because submarines are cool)
-Gaseous Form (Paranoid wizard will be paranoid)
-Water Breathing (Normally I'd buy a Necklace of Adaptation, but I can't choose items)
-Anticipate Teleportation
-Plane Shift

Oh, and if Mr. Wizard knows something will happen in the future that won't trigger his contingency (like a pesky AMF), he'll punch his own arm and trigger it himself.


And I think that's it for my level of optimization. Just as a note that feats/gear can't be used for this excessive, and thus it's a bit less than what it could be (say Craft Contingent Spell, muahahaha). If he's in true desperation, he sticks a bag of holding into a portable hole and goes to the astral and away from his problems.

EDIT: Good news, my wizard survives! Here's how it turns out:
Round 0: Mr. Wizard is in his laboratory (of which is completely encased in permanencied walls of force), completely unaware of the situation that's about to befall him. Mr. Wizard is currently testing some rocks he found from the astral plane yadda yadda ya.
Round 1: The room starts to shake. Mr. Wizard thinks to himself that it must be another earth elemental passing by or something. "It better not be the same one from last time that started poking on the windows" Mr. Wizard thinks to himself, swearing to send an extraplanar minion on such a hunt if that ever happened again.
Round 2: The earthquake starts! Mr Wizard fails to understand that it's a natural one, and his fortress... stays up, apparently. See, walls of force are immovable, nigh-indestructible, and generally don't follow the rules of holding up weight or anything. One of his beakers falls on the floor and breaks though, and Mr. Wizard swears vengeance on whoever caused the earthquake.

[Winthur]

Can I railroad this character into dying because a 26+ Intelligence Wizard never figured out that he needs a plenty of contingencies just in case his dwelling that's not a natural place to live in for most overland creatures is going to fall victim to a predictable natural disaster, and not a single one of his contingencies is capable of dealing with this possibility because they're all, invariably, going to be within the range of the earthquake?

I genuinely hope this isn't a surprise cooked up for a player...

[emeraldstreak]

During those two rounds you fail to understand that it's a natural earthquake since you have only heard some legends about them. You don't know that much about natural phenomena.

So...ummm...one of the most intelligent humans on the planet, who happens to have all Knowledge skills as class skills, somehow 'doesn't know much'? Yeah, no.

[Zanos]

I am struggling to imagine how a character with a genius intellect and knowledge(nature) as a class skill doesn't know what an earthquake is. Or a cave in, apparently.

Typically a 17th level wizard that I am playing is astral projecting from a privately sealed demiplane if they need to operate on the material plane, with at least a clone or two elsewhere if the worse should occur. That's without really getting into the stacks of immunity granting buffs. Contingencies or celerity would also allow you to teleport as the rocks are falling.

An Earthquake cannot kill a reasonably prepared 18th level wizard, no. 18th level characters are a match for the most powerful of heaven and hells armies.

[Jon_Dahl]

I am struggling to imagine how a character with a genius intellect and knowledge(nature) as a class skill doesn't know what an earthquake is. Or a cave in, apparently.



Show me two NPC wizards with ranks in knowledge (nature) from official sources that are not nature-themed. Those are rare and levels don't help. And without ranks in knowledge(x) you can't roll a check whose DC is higher than 10. Recognizing an earthquake is DC 12.

[EldritchWeaver]

I question the assumption that an earth quake can lay down the fortress. The pressure of the water is big enough that having a building like you would build on the surface isn't feasible. Your architecture has to be adapted in some, so at least on the outside there will be round shapes and on the inside big support columns and you would definitively consider something attacking your fortress, so you would have some way to deal breaches. So if there is an earthquake able to lay down your fortress, your antibreach measure would activate as well. Assuming teleport isn't available, I would consider some way to avoid being crushed to death by water (like etherealness or turning somehow incorporeal - shapechange is on the table) and get some way to breathe underwater. Actually, a contingent shapechange (simply triggered by any harmful effect on you) will get you out of this situation, regardless if it mere water or being crushed by your broken building.

[JNAProductions]

Show me two NPC wizards with ranks in knowledge (nature) from official sources that are not nature-themed. Those are rare and levels don't help. And without ranks in knowledge(x) you can't roll a check whose DC is higher than 10. Recognizing an earthquake is DC 12.

That's an issue of the game being stupid.

In addition, I am absolutely positive there are ways to bypass that that a Wizard has access to (the only one I know of is the DFA's Draconic Knowledge Invocation, but knowing 3.5, there's a Wizardly way to do it) which they would use to research.

Or, hell, they ask someone who IS an expert on nature what hazards there might be.

[Goaty14]

Show me two NPC wizards with ranks in knowledge (nature) from official sources that are not nature-themed. Those are rare and levels don't help. And without ranks in knowledge(x) you can't roll a check whose DC is higher than 10. Recognizing an earthquake is DC 12.

NPCs, by and which you mean the NPCs that have levels in prestige classes that they don't qualify for?

Those NPCs? :smallsigh:

[Jon_Dahl]

That's an issue of the game being stupid.

In addition, I am absolutely positive there are ways to bypass that that a Wizard has access to (the only one I know of is the DFA's Draconic Knowledge Invocation, but knowing 3.5, there's a Wizardly way to do it) which they would use to research.

Or, hell, they ask someone who IS an expert on nature what hazards there might be.

I don't know... This seems needlessly adversarial. But I see your point.

[Jon_Dahl]

NPCs, by and which you mean the NPCs that have levels in prestige classes that they don't qualify for?

Those NPCs? :smallsigh:

You have a point. Nevertheless, it's not every day that you see a wizard with ranks in Knowledge (nature). I have created several low level NPC wizards and there always seems to be a shortage of skill points. Every single time.

[JNAProductions]

I don't know... This seems needlessly adversarial. But I see your point.

What does your average Commoner know about, say, bears? Or horses?

Because the check to know anything about them is DC 13. Are we expected to think that your average farmer has cross-class ranks in Nature to know things about animals?

[Crake]

You are, of course, completely right, but I'm going to counter this: the destination of the teleport has collapsed during the earthquake and no longer exists. Thus the teleport fails. The destination of the teleport is usually the best place ("a safe location") near the coast, which is now completely ravaged by the earthquake plus a tsunami.

(Remember, I'm just trying to get this guy killed and I'm trying to counter any arguments my players would have in favor of sparing the life of this NPC.)

When you spend most of your time in your underwater bunker, it wouldn't make sense for a contingency to take you to the place where the danger is likely present. In this circumstance the contingent teleport would most likely be to a friend's place, or a morally and ethically aligned church where help can be sought. After all, whatever just assaulted you managed to kill you, you're clearly not able to deal with it yourself.

Other destinations can include: A private demiplane, the moon, high up in the atmosphere (assuming some form of personal flight capability), a backup base, heaven, hell, if you're so inclined and have people who work for you there, sigil. Those are the ones off the top of my head.

[Winthur]

What does your average Commoner know about, say, bears? Or horses?

Because the check to know anything about them is DC 13. Are we expected to think that your average farmer has cross-class ranks in Nature to know things about animals?

https://1d4chan.org/images/7/7d/Bear_lore.png

[Jon_Dahl]

What does your average Commoner know about, say, bears? Or horses?

Because the check to know anything about them is DC 13. Are we expected to think that your average farmer has cross-class ranks in Nature to know things about animals?

Although this is sufficiently adversarial, it is also a little bit too off topic. I will say, however, that farmers have Profession (farmer) skill, which enables them to do the following: "You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems." Handling wolf-related sheep loss problems lets you recognize a wolf. Perhaps. Perhaps not.

In D&D, being intelligent does not enable you to know anything beyond your own name. It simply allows you learn things faster. And I'm a little bit worried about the things I'm reading here.

[JNAProductions]

Although this is sufficiently adversarial, it is also a little bit too off topic. I will say, however, that farmers have Profession (farmer) skill, which enables them to do the following: "You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems." Handling wolf-related sheep loss problems let you recognize a wolf. Perhaps. Perhaps not.

In D&D, being intelligent does not enable you to know anything beyond your own name. It simply allows you learn things faster. And I'm a little bit worried about the things I'm reading here.

So you can't research, in a library, what hazards might await you? You can't ask experts? You can't use divinations?

And, moreover, if for no other reason than something like Knowledge Devotion, it's generally worth your time to have at least one rank in most every knowledge skill, ESPECIALLY those used to identify monsters. Since Wizards are Int-based, they tend to have a decent chunk of skill points.

Hell, starting at level 8 (probably, could be as early as level 4), they get an extra SP from their Int stat bumps, which they can start putting one at a time in other knowledge skills they don't have yet. That's 10 Knowledge skills with one rank at level 18, almost certainly including nature. Combo with a masterwork book or knowledge (+2 for 50 GP) and a good Int score (call it +5 from main stat, and then an extra +3 from an item) you're looking at an easy +11 for GUARANTEED knowledge of earthquakes with one rank.

[Selion]

For a paranoid 18th level wizard still silent teleport is a legit 7th level slot, just as quicken dimension door. Most wizards may have contingency related to damage received. So I think an average wizard would survive, but there are worse scenarios for a 18th level wizard

[Zanos]

Show me two NPC wizards with ranks in knowledge (nature) from official sources that are not nature-themed. Those are rare and levels don't help. And without ranks in knowledge(x) you can't roll a check whose DC is higher than 10. Recognizing an earthquake is DC 12.
Anecdotally I have never played a wizard without knowledge(nature) because it is one of the best knowledge skills. Many wizard material components are also animal/plant products. The idea that a wizard doesn't know anything about the mundane world is pretty ridiculous.

Anyway, Larloch(The ur-lich) and Elminster(yes, that one) both have it. I'm not really familiar enough with canon wizards to look up their stat blocks. Not putting a single rank into a knowledge skill is pretty silly, since your int gives you a decent check on its own and the one rank lets you roll. Also, an Earthquake, maybe. A cave-in, though? After concentration, spellcraft, and knowledge(arcana) wizards pretty much only have knowledges to pick from.

In any case, as I already showed you, there are single spells that can prevent the death of a high level wizard against a generalized natural disaster.

[Jon_Dahl]

The idea that a wizard doesn't know anything about the mundane world is pretty ridiculous.

There has not been an earthquake for 200 years. You make this all sound like he is not able to identify a flatus. I object.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe this would work better if you phrased it like that old Stuffy Doll challenge? If someone proposes a successful way to get the wizard to safety, acknowledge it, then edit the OP with an additional clause/phrase forbidding that means of survival (justified however is necessary). For example - "The earthquake is widespread enough that the contingent teleport location has been rendered unrecognizably different as per "False Destination".

[JNAProductions]

There has not been an earthquake for 200 years. You make this all sound like he is not able to identify a flatus. I object.

Why has there not been an earthquake in so long?

And, moreover, lots of races live more than 200 years. There are people alive who'd've seen, first-hand, an earthquake.

[Jon_Dahl]

Why has there not been an earthquake in so long?


I don't know.

[JNAProductions]

I don't know.

You know what? Fair answer. I'm not a seismologist, I doubt you are either, this world is magical... Fair enough.

Doesn't mean they'd be unknown, though-again, plenty of elves and dwarves would've seen one first-hand.

[ericgrau]

I think some people aren't prepping before reading the spoiler. Also the stuff after the spoiler should really be spoilered too. That said:


Teleport has no somatic component and it's something most high level wizards prepare daily, paranoid or not. You can cast it while pinned down in rubble, unless your mouth is somehow covered too. I don't really see the difficulty in this challenge, other than temporarily losing your lab.


You know what? Fair answer. I'm not a seismologist, I doubt you are either, this world is magical... Fair enough.

Doesn't mean they'd be unknown, though-again, plenty of elves and dwarves would've seen one first-hand.

I don't know, I've never experienced even a slightly dangerous earthquake first hand. I've only been taught about them. Minor harmless ones, sure. In a world where a good portion of people aren't even literate, it should at least take a minor knowledge(dungeoneering) check. DC 15 or 20. The wizard may or may not have that skill. Often other knowledges are a higher priority, like arcana, planes, nature, religion, local, etc. Add on spellcraft, concentration, some cross class tumble, balance or whatever useful cross class skill and that doesn't leave many skill points left for random semi-popular skills. Often he will have it just because he has such as high int, but often he will not.

EDIT: Actually I can see the argument for putting earthquakes under knowledge(nature). Yeah a high int wizard probably has that.

[Zanos]

There has not been an earthquake for 200 years. You make this all sound like he is not able to identify a flatus. I object.
I'm objecting to the idea that a wizard shouldn't have nature ranks. You're also ignoring my other points.

[Jon_Dahl]

I think some people aren't prepping before reading the spoiler. Also the stuff after the spoiler should really be spoilered too. That said:


Teleport has no somatic component and it's something most high level wizards prepare daily, paranoid or not. You can cast it while pinned down in rubble, unless your mouth is somehow covered too. I don't really see the difficulty in this challenge, other than temporarily losing your lab.



I don't know, I've never experienced even a slightly dangerous earthquake first hand. I've only been taught about them. Minor harmless ones, sure. In a world where a good portion of people aren't even literate, it should at least take a minor knowledge(dungeoneering) check. DC 15 or 20. The wizard may or may not have that skill. Often other knowledges are a higher priority, like arcana, planes, nature, religion, local, etc. Add on spellcraft, concentration, some cross class tumble, balance or whatever useful cross class skill and that doesn't leave many skill points left for random semi-popular skills. Often he will have it just because he has such as high int, but often he will not.


That spell component thing is a bummer which I had completely overlooked. Thank you for pointing that out.

[ericgrau]

@Zanos & etc.: That there are races that live hundreds of years and that even a difficult check would be DC 20 or 25, yeah he probably knows on a roll of a 1. And skills have no natural ones. This isn't some once in ten thousand years mythical elder evil that may or may not actually exist. That said, he'd also know that the chances of an earthquake in his exact location are close to nil, so preparing for that specifically seems a little meta. Maybe it could be covered as part of a general natural disaster / ordinary cave in / burrowing monster plan.



That spell component thing is a bummer which I had completely overlooked. Thank you for pointing that out.
Well there is a trivial concentration check too, but yeah. The DC is much higher if a creature is doing the pinning, I suppose because violent motion and what not. But at level 18 your concentration modifier is pretty high. And rings of freedom of movement are not uncommon at level 18 too. If the level were lower then something like a storm and/or grappling creature could have a pretty high concentration DC making casting more difficult.

[DeTess]

I'm going to take a bit of a shot in the dark here, but do you need to kill this wizard, or merely ensure that the players don't have access to him for the next couple of years? Because it sounds like you've given the players an allied NPC that has proven to be able to solve stuff for them way too easily, so now you need to stop the players from making use of him without triggering a quest for revenge (which is why you're trying to use natural causes).

Getting the players to lose access to an NPC like that is far easier than actually killing them. For example:

The players have decided that once again they need super-wizards help to solve the problem, but upon arriving at their tower they find it locked up securely/gone altogether with a message left behind reading: "I am looking for the lost city of Acarza. I'll be back in a couple of years."

The players can find out that Acarza is basically the settings equivalent of El Dorado or Atlantis, but can't find any clues as to where it is. Trying to figure out where the wizard has gone proves to be impossible, as the wizard will be travelling in adventure-modus, which includes a daily casting of mind blank. Maybe the players can reach him through the sending spell, but given the long casting time, high spell slot and 25-word limit this doesn't allow for easy communication, and since the wizard has stuff to do themselves they'll tell the players something along the lines of "I'm too busy to help, but I'm sure you can figure this out yourself."

[ColorBlindNinja]

I have two observations:

1. I always put ranks in Knowledge Nature, it identifies a ton of monster types.

2. If the OP wants to kill off this high level NPC, why not say a Wizard did it? :smallwink:

[Zanos]

Yeah, you can pretty easily get rid of an 18th level wizard, you have control of the entire setting. Sideways deal with an outsider, overambitious magical experiment, one of his many enemies...

The way D&D is built though characters that can tussle with Pit Fiends generally aren't taken out by cave ins.

[icefractal]

I think it's possible, if he's somewhat unlucky.
First off, Contingent Teleport goes to a hidden room within his base, which is now rubble.
Then, having already teleported somewhere and back that day, he only has one Greater Teleport remaining. He might have more in a Staff or scrolls, but no way to reach those.
He tries to GT to a spot on the coast that no longer exists, so it fails. Ironically, regular Teleport would have been better.
And then he has no other non-S spells, preferring to use a Metamagic Still Rod when he needs it - a rod he can't access.
His revitalization option was Clones, which were also in the now collapsed base.

That's not maximum-paranoid, but it's still a reasonable amount of defenses for every other time, that could fail.

[Jon_Dahl]

I'm going to take a bit of a shot in the dark here, but do you need to kill this wizard, or merely ensure that the players don't have access to him for the next couple of years? Because it sounds like you've given the players an allied NPC that has proven to be able to solve stuff for them way too easily, so now you need to stop the players from making use of him without triggering a quest for revenge (which is why you're trying to use natural causes).

Getting the players to lose access to an NPC like that is far easier than actually killing them. For example:

The players have decided that once again they need super-wizards help to solve the problem, but upon arriving at their tower they find it locked up securely/gone altogether with a message left behind reading: "I am looking for the lost city of Acarza. I'll be back in a couple of years."

The players can find out that Acarza is basically the settings equivalent of El Dorado or Atlantis, but can't find any clues as to where it is. Trying to figure out where the wizard has gone proves to be impossible, as the wizard will be travelling in adventure-modus, which includes a daily casting of mind blank. Maybe the players can reach him through the sending spell, but given the long casting time, high spell slot and 25-word limit this doesn't allow for easy communication, and since the wizard has stuff to do themselves they'll tell the players something along the lines of "I'm too busy to help, but I'm sure you can figure this out yourself."

Thank you, Randuir, you are very helpful! Thank you.

[Jon_Dahl]

@Zanos & etc.: That there are races that live hundreds of years and that even a difficult check would be DC 20 or 25, yeah he probably knows on a roll of a 1. And skills have no natural ones. This isn't some once in ten thousand years mythical elder evil that may or may not actually exist. That said, he'd also know that the chances of an earthquake in his exact location are close to nil, so preparing for that specifically seems a little meta. Maybe it could be covered as part of a general natural disaster / ordinary cave in / burrowing monster plan.



Well there is a trivial concentration check too, but yeah. The DC is much higher if a creature is doing the pinning, I suppose because violent motion and what not. But at level 18 your concentration modifier is pretty high. And rings of freedom of movement are not uncommon at level 18 too. If the level were lower then something like a storm and/or grappling creature could have a pretty high concentration DC making casting more difficult.

Is it completely out of the question that a wizard would not max out his or her Concentration skill? Like for instance, if I said that a wizard stopped investing ranks to Concentration after level 10, would I be uttering the words of madness?

[Galacktic]

Is it completely out of the question that a wizard would not max out his or her Concentration skill? Like for instance, if I said that a wizard stopped investing ranks to Concentration after level 10, would I be uttering the words of madness?

I would never stop putting ranks into concentration, honestly. Concentration/Arcana/Spellcraft are my big three skills as a wizard.

[awa]

if the complex partially floods due to damage things get a lot harder, you cant talk underwater.

Just because a wizard owns a magic item does not mean he has it on him every second of the day, particularly if he has other utility items to put on so even if he owns a ring of freedom of movement if he is doing research that calls on his ring of x ray vision and lets say elemental command.

[Jon_Dahl]

I would never stop putting ranks into concentration, honestly. Concentration/Arcana/Spellcraft are my big three skills as a wizard.

I didn't see Knowledge (nature) there so you might be playing the game wrong.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I didn't see Knowledge (nature) there so you might be playing the game wrong.

That's only 3 skills taken. A typical Wizard would have 3 more to max, one of which could be Knowledge Nature.

[Galacktic]

I didn't see Knowledge (nature) there so you might be playing the game wrong.

That's three skill points out of my minimum of 6, since I'd be rocking at least an 18 int. If I'm level 18, then my int is much higher!

[Zanos]

I didn't see Knowledge (nature) there so you might be playing the game wrong.
You are talking to different people.

I don't generally stop putting points into concentration at any point since the skill gatekeeps spellcasting in bad situations, which is the wizards only real source of power. Wizards luckily have a decent number of skill points with intelligence as their main stat. With an 18 int human wizard I usually max Concentration, Spellcraft, Kn(arcana, planes, nature, religion) and then use the remainder on putting a rank into other knowledge skills so I can at least make the checks with my int modifier. I also find a lot of variance in how useful individual DMs make the knowledge skills that aren't related to monsters. The four I mentioned there come up pretty frequently both with monsters and with general concepts, but I've had DMs require geography to navigate or made history checks a big deal, so I'd throw some more into those.

[flappeercraft]

I decided to run this with a 10th level wizard I had run in a Maure Castle one shot to see how I fair against the challenge. I still survived. I only used spells that he had prepared before he died in the game.

To keep in mind that he had CL boosters for CL 12.

He had ranks in all knowledge skills (at least 1)

These are all the ways he could survive:
-Silent Whispercast + Teleport (if already buried)
-Celerity + Teleport
-Celerity + Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere + Teleport
-Extended Xorn Movement + Haste + Xorn Movement

Edit: I extended Xorn Movement via a rod of extend in that game

[Jon_Dahl]

Well there is a trivial concentration check too, but yeah. The DC is much higher if a creature is doing the pinning, I suppose because violent motion and what not. But at level 18 your concentration modifier is pretty high. And rings of freedom of movement are not uncommon at level 18 too. If the level were lower then something like a storm and/or grappling creature could have a pretty high concentration DC making casting more difficult.

Wait wait, I got this... I got this... As I said in the OP, the earthquake takes more than two rounds, right? Well, it takes four rounds in total, meaning that the wizard has to cast spell under the rubble while the earth is shaking. Any self-respecting 18th-level wizard only uses the greater teleport and the normal teleport is meant for contingency. He casts two greater teleports, but the earthquake imposes Concentration check 20+spell level 7 = 27. Even at 18th level, he can fail twice and lose both of his greater teleports before the earthquake stops. There could also be a -2 circumstance penalty to the rolls. Then the following would happen as per icefractal:


I think it's possible, if he's somewhat unlucky.
First off, Contingent Teleport goes to a hidden room within his base, which is now rubble. [The contingency would happen when he dies, as per Crake, and of course Crake and everyone else would like to teleport to the hidden magic armory in his own base behind a prismatic-spray-trapped search-DC-30 secret door, right?]
Then, having already teleported somewhere and back that day, he only has one (two) Greater Teleport remaining [both lost due to failed Concentration checks]. He might have more in a Staff or scrolls, but no way to reach those.
He tries to GT to a spot on the coast that no longer exists, so it fails. Ironically, regular Teleport would have been better. [Yeah, if he had a third GT.]
And then he has no other non-S spells, preferring to use a Metamagic Still Rod when he needs it - a rod he can't access.
His revitalization option was Clones, which were also in the now collapsed base.

That's not maximum-paranoid, but it's still a reasonable amount of defenses for every other time, that could fail.

Bang, he is dead! It just takes three bad rolls to kill that SoB.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wait wait, I got this... I got this... As I said in the OP, the earthquake takes more than two rounds, right? Well, it takes four rounds in total, meaning that the wizard has to cast spell under the rubble while the earth is shaking. Any self-respecting 18th-level wizard only uses the greater teleport and the normal teleport is meant for contingency. He casts two greater teleports, but the earthquake imposes Concentration check 20+spell level 7 = 27. Even at 18th level, he can fail twice and lose both of his greater teleports before the earthquake stops. There could also be a -2 circumstance penalty to the rolls. Then the following would happen as per icefractal:



Bang, he is dead! It just takes three bad rolls to kill that SoB.

The spells that Contingency provides aren't cast by the Wizard, they just take effect, no Concentration check required.

EDIT: Also Craft Contingent Spell can provide you with spells of any level for Contingency, including Greater Teleport.

[Rhedyn]

I doubt see how an 18th-level wizard does die from this. What respectable wizard lives underground and isn't prepared for "rocks fall and the party dies"?

[Jack_Simth]

Basic prep covers. Constant Foresight (rod extended, a
pearl of power or two, and off-plane sleep); Celerity, and a few "get out of dodge" spells prepared (teleport, plane shift, whatever) keeps the wizard alive, no problem. Could easily sub something like Resilient Sphere.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Basic prep covers. Constant Foresight (rod extended, a
pearl of power or two, and off-plane sleep); Celerity, and a few "get out of dodge" spells prepared (teleport, plane shift, whatever) keeps the wizard alive, no problem.

I will also point out that you can Shapechange into an Elemental Weird to get Foresight as a free action.

And you can (also as a free action) turn into an incorporeal monster and become immune to all nonmagical attacks.

[Feantar]

Sorry, I don't know much about level 8 and level 9 arcane spells and I have never played high-level games, so I would need some advice on this matter from those playgrounders who have a solid understanding of the proper use of high-level spells and what's it like to be the most powerful wizard of any given continent.

The Set-Up

You an 18th-level wizard who lives in a cavernous underwater fortress beneath the equivalent of the Atlantic Ocean, some 150 miles from the closest shore. No one can threaten you and you are not worried about your security. You spend your days in the fortress reading and researching magic. You are reclusive by nature.

Choose your spells and how you have protected yourself, but leave lots of room for spells that help you with your research.

Done? Ready?

A powerful natural earthquake brings down the entire fortress and all the caverns in two rounds (the earthquake will last longer than that, though) The first round is just some shaking, but nothing special, but the second round is complete havoc. During those two rounds you fail to understand that it's a natural earthquake since you have only heard some legends about them. You don't know that much about natural phenomena.

You are in the bury zone and you take 31 points of damage because you rolled natural 1 for your Reflex save. You are completely buried and unable to move your limbs. You take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while buried. The closest open space (the sea floor) is 2,500 ft. from your location. The fortress and the caverns are completely destroyed. All your friends, which don't really like you that much, are busy with surviving the chaos that the earthquake caused for the next 12 hours.

Did you die? Good! That means that my players won't be able to say that "Hey, an earthquake can't kill an 18th-level wizard!" Negating such complaints is the objective of this thread.

A couple of suggestions on your scenario.

First, a being of enough intellect to be an 18th level wizard, is not going to ignore an earthquake. However, they might be the usual High Int, Low Wis character who goes "I built this place, it is absolutely going to hold". It is arrogance that makes them stay, not ignorance.

Second, involve some anti magic in the whole situation (as has been suggested). You don't have to go far - maybe the wizard has some permanent antimagic fields cast between his walls, so that incorporeal opponents just zap out of existence if they try to sneak up on him, a wall breaks, and instead of his contingency going off, he is engulfed in an antimagic field. Or something similar.

If both are true, and if he isn't an initiate of Mystra and doesn't have invoke magic (which is reasonable), then he is probably screwed.

[awa]

a possibly interesting idea if the wizard is paranoid enough, like is actually paranoid not just well prepared, he might sense the earth quake and then miss-identify the problem; Think its an attack rather than a natural disaster. This could cause him to take the wrong actions, for instance preparing to defend the lair rather than fleeing.

Of course you may be over complicating things
If the players ask how did are wizard friend die from an earth quake you can simply say "you dont know you weren't their".

[ColorBlindNinja]

a possibly interesting idea if the wizard is paranoid enough, like is actually paranoid not just well prepared, he might sense the earth quake and then miss-identify the problem; Think its an attack rather than a natural disaster. This could cause him to take the wrong actions, for instance preparing to defend the lair rather than fleeing.

If the Wizard was sufficiently paranoid, he'd be living in his own private demiplane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) or casting Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) for a lair.

[awa]

If the Wizard was sufficiently paranoid, he'd be living in his own private demiplane or casting Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion for a lair.

like I was saying paranoia in terms of mental illness not paranoia in terms of preparedness. Actual paranoid people are not bat man, they can very well be worse off then regular people because they are bad at judging the degree of a threat spending to many resources on non issues to the neglect of real dangers.

Private demi planes and magnificent mansions might be good for hiding but if the dm wants a reason for him not to be in one of them then their is a simple one. It somehow interferes with his research. If a player asks how simple say "you dont know he never fully explained his research to you".

[ColorBlindNinja]

like I was saying paranoia in terms of mental illness not paranoia in terms of preparedness. Actual paranoid people are not bat man, they can very well be worse off then regular people because they are bad at judging the degree of a threat spending to many resources on non issues to the neglect of real dangers.

I see, most of the time when people talk about paranoid Wizards, they're just being duly cautious.


Private demi planes and magnificent mansions might be good for hiding but if the dm wants a reason for him not to be in one of them then their is a simple one. It somehow interferes with his research. If a player asks how simple say "you dont know he never fully explained his research to you".

And I would consider that a cop out if my DM told me that.


What the OP should do is just say, "A Wizard killed him." and leave it at that.

[Jon_Dahl]

.


What the OP should do is just say, "A Wizard killed him." and leave it at that.

You have a point. However, I have never really read any of the level 8 and level 9 spells before and all of this is a thought exercise for me.

Come to think of, is there really any reason why the wizard wouldn't prefer to stay in room with a Dimensional Lock inside it? I just finished reading its description and it seems silly not to prevent a horde of demons teleporting on your face. I think that overrides the whole "I want to be able to escape in a heartbeat" idea. It's your home. I think a smart wizard would choose a Dimensional Lock instead of constantly working under the threat of getting jumped.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You have a point. However, I have never really read any of the level 8 and level 9 spells before and all of this is a thought exercise for me.

Come to think of, is there really any reason why the wizard wouldn't prefer to stay in room with a Dimensional Lock inside it? I just finished reading its description and it seems silly not to prevent a horde of demons teleporting on your face. I think that overrides the whole "I want to be able to escape in a heartbeat" idea. It's your home. I think a smart wizard would choose a Dimensional Lock instead of constantly working under the threat of getting jumped.

Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm) works better for that sort of thing, preferably with the Selective Spell metamagic so your own spells aren't affected.

But that doesn't stop transport via Wish, thanks to its "regardless of local conditions" clause.

[Bronk]

Here another idea for his death:

This mage might have been in a battle - magic and contingencies depleted - and just returned when the earthquake hit.


Here's an idea for why he didn't know about the earthquake ahead of time:

This mage's fortress and cavern complex used to be the lair of a powerful dragon who has since moved out. The dragon left because it knew there was eventually going to be a natural earthquake in the area. However, while it was living there, he tricked it out with the full assortment of protections, including powerful anti-divination protections. The mage found out about it somehow and moved in, however the protections didn't allow him to find out about the earthquake until it was too late.

How about this: You just tell the PCs that the mage died, and they have to figure out how. If, during their investigations, they come up with reasons you like, work them in. At that point, maybe they believe he's dead, maybe not... and maybe you decide later that he's alive (maybe he survived, maybe someone rezzed him for information or a favor), and the PC's ideas appeared to be correct because the mage was scrying on them the whole time and using their ideas to cover his tracks.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Here another idea for his death:

This mage might have been in a battle - magic and contingencies depleted - and just returned when the earthquake hit.

Why not simplify this scenario by just having the mage die in battle?

[Jon_Dahl]

Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm) works better for that sort of thing, preferably with the Selective Spell metamagic so your own spells aren't affected.

But that doesn't stop transport via Wish, thanks to its "regardless of local conditions" clause.

Why a cleric spell? Casting this using a Wish seems very expensive.
Maybe we should stick with arcane spells. I dunno.

[Jon_Dahl]

How about this: You just tell the PCs that the mage died, and they have to figure out how. If, during their investigations, they come up with reasons you like, work them in. At that point, maybe they believe he's dead, maybe not... and maybe you decide later that he's alive (maybe he survived, maybe someone rezzed him for information or a favor), and the PC's ideas appeared to be correct because the mage was scrying on them the whole time and using their ideas to cover his tracks.

I think that this is a great idea.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Why a cleric spell? Casting this using a Wish seems very expensive.

It's permanent, you only need to cast it once. Getting free Wishes is also really easy.


Maybe we should stick with arcane spells. I dunno.

Then cast Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) and per the rules in Manual of the Planes, cut off its access from the other transitory plane of existence and use Wish to get to it.

Otherwise, most Demiplanes can only be accessed from a single location anyway, which is fairly secure.

[Telonius]

... and you are not worried about your security.

I think that's where the scenario fails.


An ancient proverb summed it up: when a wizard is tired of looking for broken glass in his dinner, it ran, he is tired of life.

Okay, so he's never heard of an earthquake, despite the fact there's a well-known spell of that name. It's something he doesn't know that he doesn't know. That's exactly the sort of thing that Divinations are for. Failure to use them (at least occasionally) is neglecting to look for broken glass.

[awa]

a though came to me a wizard who spends vast amounts of mental energy looking for every possible upcoming threat both from people and from natural causes may very well drive themselves crazy. And once your crazy you stop being effective or at least begin to see a reduction in effectiveness.

Using divination to try and predict a natural disaster not common to the region that you are only vaguely aware of? Thats going to be pretty far down your list of things to use divination's on.

Depending on how he words his divination's a natural disaster might very well slip past. "Is anyone or anything taking or planning on taking any action or inaction in opposition to me knowingly or unknowingly that is worth my time to hinder or prevent" That's a pretty thorough divination but it still would not catch the earth quake.

[Jon_Dahl]

I think that's where the scenario fails.



Okay, so he's never heard of an earthquake, despite the fact there's a well-known spell of that name. It's something he doesn't know that he doesn't know. That's exactly the sort of thing that Divinations are for. Failure to use them (at least occasionally) is neglecting to look for broken glass.

The spell lasts one round. An actual earthquake lasts two or more rounds. The fact that he knows the spell but does not know the natural phenomenon in detail makes everything worse.

[Galacktic]

The big thing is, a high level wizard is an order of magnitude smarter than any human that's ever lived in our world. Whatever way we play them will be less efficient than what they -should- be able to do. I think someone with 25ish Int being able to constantly look out for themselves and keep an eye out for the broken glass in their dinner while still being a productive wizard makes perfect sense.


E: Also, you're the DM and it's your game/world. Just kill him off offscreen if you have to, whatever the methods.

[awa]

I would say multi tasking is an aspect of wisdom not intelligence.
Fictional wizards/ mad scientist are often depicted getting fixated on one thing to their own detriment

knowing how to create a spell/ device able to stop a foe from teleporting into your lair Int, remembering to lock the front door Wis.

[Zanos]

Come to think of, is there really any reason why the wizard wouldn't prefer to stay in room with a Dimensional Lock inside it? I just finished reading its description and it seems silly not to prevent a horde of demons teleporting on your face. I think that overrides the whole "I want to be able to escape in a heartbeat" idea. It's your home. I think a smart wizard would choose a Dimensional Lock instead of constantly working under the threat of getting jumped.
A "properly cautious" high level wizard can relatively comfortable live in a highly fortified demiplane or magnificent mansion, yes. Private Sanctum, Forbiddance, Dimensional Lock, Teleport Cage, a weirdstone, etc. can all keep people out of your business while you mind your research. Excursions to other planes can be made via astral projections while warded with mind blank with clone backups just in case. Some other good spells for maintaining high level defenses are Foresight, Veil of Undeath, Heart of Water, Shapechange, Hide Life, Superior Invisibility, Moment of Prescience, and of course Wish if you make a really big mistake. I'd rather burn 5k xp than die.

[Anthrowhale]

Note that real-life tsunamis take significant time to travel 100s of miles so Teleport to a place that will be destroyed by a tsunami just after or during an earthquake should work fine. Probably the earthquake itself hasn't even affected the place you teleport to.

[tadkins]

I always kind of figured that having a lair on the material plane was beneath a wizard of that level of power. I'd picture them having it inaccessible on their own personal demiplane, in the deepest reaches of the Void, or tucked away in some other similar esoteric realm.

[Necroticplague]

High level characters of all stripes have a lot of HP, even the squishy ones. The Wizard will survive the initial cave-in without a problem. Even without a CON mod and only average HP rolls, that's only half his HP.

1d6 nonlethal per minute is also an incredibly slow boil of damage, so that's not much of a problem either.

So, assuming my theoretical wizard simply didn't build his base out of an extensive series of Walls of Force that would be unaffected by the earthquake (along with basically anything else that happens in the environment), this would be an expensive setback, but not remotely life threatening. Still Spell or Freedom of Movement eliminates the only factor that might even be of a moderate impediment. From there, incorporeality, gaseousness, or teleportation all easily extricate myself.

While you mention the closest place is a fair distance away, its smaller when you realize that's less than a mile, so it's well within range to Teleport out.

So, in summary: not remotely. The kind of tools needed to free myself from this situation are things that I'd keep prepared in case one of my experiments goes awry anyways. I'd hate to lose a perfectly good store of knowledge, but its just an expensive lesson learned.

[AvatarVecna]

I've yet to check out the spoiler, but already by the premise I'm kinda disagreeing. If I'm an 18th level wizard, I wouldn't settle for naturally-occurring anything as my home base, partially because making my own demiplane gives me a lot of control over my own home and makes defense much easier, and partially because I only wanna deal with weather - including natural disasters - on my own terms. Additionally, while I'm kinda unsure just how far I should take my personal defenses - I guess it depends how optimal the mages I've faced in the past are, and how optimal I expect other mages in the world to be. But even if I'm playing in a low-op game, and have settled for a lair I didn't really hand-build out in the Astral (as is the presumed set-up here), I'm probably at least gonna have a Contingent Celerity to cast some get-out-of-dodge-free card in the event that I get surprised by something or really hurt, or something like that.

If I suspect I'm gonna get attacked in my home at any moment, I'll probably find a way to get some solid permanent/all-day/persisted buff spells - Mind Blank, Freedom Of Movement, and Energy Immunity are obvious core spells giving some nice solid immunities, and there's probably another couple good all-purpose kinda defensive buffs I'd throw in that I can't be assed to track down right now, so let's just assume those 3 (well, those 8 but anyway). I guess if I'm really paranoid, I'll have Hide Life to be immune to dying from damage (note to self: put finger-horcrux somewhere secure at another location, just on general principle), and maybe some way of triggering Ghostform (maybe a limited per-day usage item? Can't be a wand, so its expensive, but incorporeality is hard to not have as an option in case **** goes bad).

Oh, and threat identification! Let's see...assuming Adult Human Wizard 18 with Int 18 at lvl 1 (22 at lvl 18, 27 with tome +5, 33 with a headband), I'm looking at 161 skills points, so....Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana/Nature/Religion/The Planes/Psionics), and Spellcraft all get full ranks, then 2 ranks each for the lesser 6 core knowledges, and the last two points go the Collector Of Stories skill trick. That has me at at least +32 for the main knowledges and spellcraft, and then +13 for the lesser knowledges. That should have me more than prepared enough for identifying and figuring out how to deal with anything that comes my way, or at least I hope it is.

Time to go read.

EDIT: Really? Just an earthquake? And you assume that a wizard with tons of skill points and literally nothing better to spend them on than knowledge skills isn't going to have skill ranks in knowledge skills? Yeah okay dude.

So, let's not talk about how basically any wizard with at least 18 Int - so, any wizard higher than 10th level at the highest - is going to have at least one rank in each of the big four knowledge skills, one of them being Nature...and let's not talk about how at the other end of the bell curve, the really good wizards are going to have full ranks in Nature and at least one rank in Geography, so yeah most wizards that make it this far kinda know what earthquakes are. So, let's not talk about how from a +5 cloak of resistance, Dex 14 (modest, I think), and 18 Wizard levels, I'm looking at a Reflex save +13 and can literally only fail the DC 15 on a 1 - we're not talking about that because let's just assume I rolled a nat 1. Unlucky. Let's also say that this Wizard has Con 10 and always rolled for HP. Now we're pitting 8d6 damage against 18d4 HP - oops turns out there's a 99.3% chance (https://anydice.com/program/13077) my HP total is higher than the damage dealt, so I'm still conscious. Let's also not talk about how one of the buffs I keep up, Freedom Of Movement, has a three hour duration at my level (or six hours if I extend it, or 24 hours if I persist it), because it's debatable whether it applies to natural earthquakes.

Let's not talk about any of that irrelevant BS because I just verblize a command word and turn incorporeal for 18 rounds. And naturally, first order of business is teleporting to the nearest safe place to take an accounting of my losses, create the personal demiplane I should've been using in the first place, Greater Planar Binding an efreet into getting replacements for all my stuff (and compensating him for the trouble, because I'm not a complete *******), and settling into my new life in my little Astral bubble where earthquakes don't exist because I don't want them to. Oh wait, how close is the nearest safe place again from this earthquake? Ohhhh wowwwwwww a whole 2500 ft? Golly that's too far even for an Enlarged Dimension Door, I'm gonna have to bust out Teleport (1800 mile range) or Plane Shift (just...go to another dimension) to offset that "problem". Or hey, since I'm a ghost for 18 rounds...cast Haste and then spend 4 rounds running and 13 rounds hustling, which gets me 2520 ft away from where I was...to the ocean floor, where Freedom Of Movement helps me out from there.

[Efrate]

Assuming a minimum 19 int gives you 6 maxed or nearly maxed skills, 7 if you are human. Spellcraft, concentration, arcana, religion, planes, nature, dungeoneering. Likely in that order. Gives you all monster identifications but humanoid. Realistically local, history, and arch and engineering, nobility and royalty, psionics are likely candidates for being maxed as well. Decipher script is useless, then it's crafting if you feel the need to make your golems bodies yourself? You can throw a few points around to count as trained in everything that matters.

[Deophaun]

Is it completely out of the question that a wizard would not max out his or her Concentration skill? Like for instance, if I said that a wizard stopped investing ranks to Concentration after level 10, would I be uttering the words of madness?
Nope.

Really, even though I immediately had the spells and protections in mind when you said "underwater fortress" (an odd place to be for someone that doesn't care about security, but no matter), it's not out of the question for the wizard to be caught off guard in this situation. It boils down to a simple fact: the wizard does not know that he's playing a game. He doesn't know you can get 21 ranks in Concentration just by writing a number on a piece of paper. He doesn't even know what a "rank" is. It takes years of work and effort for him, and he might not have the talent for it. Just like he doesn't have an interest in conjuration magic. I mean, sure, it gets the girls, but it's just not his thing; he finds the spells suspect: you just need to be in the room when your friend pops over for tea and a "mishap" occurs to put you off that. Transmutation and illusion, on the other hand, are his passions.

There is no third party with access to the entirety of the world's magical knowledge making decisions for him. Every decision he made is based on what life threw at him at the time, not on some 20-level plan he came up with when he was 16 and lugging around a light crossbow. There is no necessity that he be optimized as we see it. In fact, it would be downright strange.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Transmutation and illusion, on the other hand, are his passions.

Hello Ice Assassin! :smallamused:

EDIT: And Shapechange!


Also, every spellcaster puts ranks in Concentration so that they can cast their spells, even if they're being shot at or on a ship during a storm. You max that skill if you have any brains at all. And Wizards have brains in spades.

[Quertus]

Allow me to point out that any Wizard who reasonably made it to 18th level would either a) be wise enough to be defended enough to ignore this minor inconvenience, or b) have been riding on the coattails of an effective party.

So, in short, this scenario is almost certainly bogus.

That having been said, intelligence is not wisdom. And I've seen plenty idiotic Wizards die from less. But this unpreparedness weeds them out long before 18th level.

This is not a Dragon. It can't get awesome super powers hiding, eating, and just growing older. This is not a god, who was handed infinite cosmic power as his birthright. No, this is a Wizard - someone who has achieved power by surviving numerous serious threats to their life through clever manipulation of Arcane forces.

I've only ever encountered one group of humans dumb enough to have high-level PCs who would be dumb enough to die to this threat.

Yes, something that a Playgrounder scratches out on the back of a napkin in 5 minutes may die to this challenge. But a mage who had survived to level 18 is far more likely to die of old age than to the ignominy of this threat.

So, since you seem to be jonesing to kill off this NPC, what's the backstory here?


I would never stop putting ranks into concentration, honestly. Concentration/Arcana/Spellcraft are my big three skills as a wizard.

As a player? Of course not. But as a character? It's foolish, but say a Divination said that "your fighting days are behind you" or some such - could you not see a dedicated researcher pumping their neglected knowledge skills at this point?

Of course, if they did, then they'd know about earthquakes...


The big thing is, a high level wizard is an order of magnitude smarter than any human that's ever lived in our world.

Actually, as played, I am an order of magnitude smarter than most high-level Wizards... :smallamused:


Note that real-life tsunamis take significant time to travel 100s of miles so Teleport to a place that will be destroyed by a tsunami just after or during an earthquake should work fine. Probably the earthquake itself hasn't even affected the place you teleport to.

Ouch. That puts a wrinkle in things. What is the Wizard hasn't used the destination in years, and plant growth / a fallen tree / goblins / mischievous pixies / whatever had changed the area?

[Carden-Gix'oth]

18 level Wizard, right? I'm assuming this Wizard player isn't a complete fool and took some metamagic feats. (I did when I built this character for this situation) and has magic items appropriate.

SO, here's how I'd get out of that situation:

In preparation for such a thing, I would have worked with my DM and cast as many strengthening spells I can to make my cave/lair's stone the equivalent adamantine. Since you didn't include this, I'm ignoring this even though this amounts to "**** your earthquake". And yes, I'm taking into consideration "Choose your spells and how you have protected yourself"

A support focused Wizard would have many spells such as "Ethereal Jaunt" that negate this.
"But Carden, you're pinned, you can't cast spells with somatic components!!"
Remember how I mentioned Metamagic Feats? Metamagic Still Spell. **** your debris pinning me, I'm Ethereal now.
Then there's "Teleport", "Greater Teleport", "Force Cage", "Premonition" to foresee the the earthquake coming, and get the **** out of there before it hits.

Let's assume I'm out of spells:
Boots of Teleportation, which every Wizard should have
Ring of Force Armor or Shield to protect the Wizard


And this isn't going into anything obscure like Chronomancy (I'd turn back time, cause **** that), or multiclassing (Wizard/Druid, Wildshape to Earth Elemental) which I ignored cause you said specifically "Level 18 Wizard" without any multiclassing specified.

[tyckspoon]

Also, every spellcaster puts ranks in Concentration so that they can cast their spells, even if they're being shot at or on a ship during a storm. You max that skill if you have any brains at all. And Wizards have brains in spades.

It might not necessarily be maxed, tho, but that's just because most environmental things requiring Concentration are relatively low DCs - the highest normal DC is 20 for 'extraordinarily violent motion', which even has an earthquake as the given example. Getting higher than that requires somebody throwing spells at you or whacking you with a good attack in the middle of your casting, and by that point your defense has switched from 'try to get Concentration high enough to beat the check' to 'make sure I can't take that much damage in the first place.' So, yeah, I can easily see people deciding to stop throwing precious skill points into Concentration once they have in the area of a +20 total bonus to it (probably around level 10? +13 from skill points, +5 competence from a cheap magic item blended into your fancier magic robes/cloak of resistance, +2 Con bonus hits +20, can't fail any standard environmentally caused check on a 1 and you have the equivalent of a +20 save bonus against 'distracting magic.') There's not a lot of good reason to continue maxing Concentration after that point.. but then I think that just reinforces the argument for "the Wizard probably has a random point or two in a lot of obscure Knowledges, just in case he needs to know about them."

[ColorBlindNinja]

And this isn't going into anything obscure like Chronomancy (I'd turn back time, cause **** that)

Are you talking about spells from Dragon Magazine or something else?


It might not necessarily be maxed, tho, but that's just because most environmental things requiring Concentration are relatively low DCs - the highest normal DC is 20 for 'extraordinarily violent motion', which even has an earthquake as the given example. Getting higher than that requires somebody throwing spells at you or whacking you with a good attack in the middle of your casting, and by that point your defense has switched from 'try to get Concentration high enough to beat the check' to 'make sure I can't take that much damage in the first place.' So, yeah, I can easily see people deciding to stop throwing precious skill points into Concentration once they have in the area of a +20 total bonus to it (probably around level 10? +13 from skill points, +5 competence from a cheap magic item blended into your fancier magic robes/cloak of resistance, +2 Con bonus hits +20, can't fail any standard environmentally caused check on a 1 and you have the equivalent of a +20 save bonus against 'distracting magic.') There's not a lot of good reason to continue maxing Concentration after that point.. but then I think that just reinforces the argument for "the Wizard probably has a random point or two in a lot of obscure Knowledges, just in case he needs to know about them."

True, but there's always a check forced from damage, rare, but it could happen.

I totally agree that a if a Wizard's doing her job right, she won't ever be in that situation, but I feel like it's better safe than sorry.

[Necroticplague]

As a player? Of course not. But as a character? It's foolish, but say a Divination said that "your fighting days are behind you" or some such - could you not see a dedicated researcher pumping their neglected knowledge skills at this point?

I think you and I have a different idea as what researching magic entails. If I spent my time researching magic, I'd still want a focus on defensive things, in case one of my experiments goes catastrophically wrong. Say, my experiments with Conjuration end up creating some localized storm, being able to focus so I can dispel it would be very important. The fact I'm not fighting just means I don't need any offensive spells.

[AvatarVecna]

This thread can be summed up with "just because a high-level loner wizard doing experiments doesn't fight all the time doesn't mean they won't be prepared for a slightly more debilitating version of help I've fallen and I can't get up".

[Nightcanon]

For thread that started with "I don't know very much about high level wizards, is this scenario feasible?", you seem very invested in contradicting those people who suggest that it isn't.
Depending on the level of optimisation in a campaign, an 18th level wizard might be functionally immortal; if that isn't the case in your campaign world then fine.
If you are looking for a way to remove an overly-powerful NPC from the world, just have them mysteriously up sticks and go elsewhere (hell, if you want rid of an overly-powerful Player character, you could ask the player to consider retiring them, rather than needing to set up a "rocks fall, you're dead" scenario.

[ColorBlindNinja]

For thread that started with "I don't know very much about high level wizards, is this scenario feasible?", you seem very invested in contradicting those people who suggest that it isn't.

It could partly be because many people have myriads of misconception concerning how powerful and flexible high level tier 1 spellcasters actually are.



Depending on the level of optimisation in a campaign, an 18th level wizard might be functionally immortal; if that isn't the case in your campaign world then fine.

The amount of optimization needed to survive this scenario is pretty low, to be honest.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

Are you talking about spells from Dragon Magazine or something else?

Chronomancy: The Power of Time. It's an Unearthed Arcana book

[Carden-Gix'oth]

It could partly be because many people have myriads of misconception concerning how powerful and flexible high level tier 1 spellcasters actually are.




The amount of optimization needed to survive this scenario is pretty low, to be honest.

Ok, Wizards are the ultimate in flexibility with spell casting. Unless you're talking Sorcerer vs Wizard. Sorcs are a little more flexible in how they cast, Wizards have the upper hand in the sheer volume of spells they can cast, though they're limited by the number of spell per day more harshly than a Sorc is. And again, Magic Items

[ColorBlindNinja]

Chronomancy: The Power of Time. It's an Unearthed Arcana book

Hm, I've never heard of it. Is it 3rd party?

[Carden-Gix'oth]

Hm, I've never heard of it. Is it 3rd party?

Technically... it's a d20 book. But, since d20 System is owned, licensed, and trademarked by WotC, it's technically not 3rd party.

It was published by Mongoose Publishing (they did a lot of publishing for WoTC) but it specifically states that:


"This Product Requires the use of the Dungeons and Dragons(r) Player's Hand Book, Third Edition, Published by Wizards of the Coast(r)"

in a little grey/silver "plaque" on the back on the book.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Technically... it's a d20 book. But, since d20 System is owned, licensed, and trademarked by WotC, it's technically not 3rd party.

It was published by Mongoose Publishing (they did a lot of publishing for WoTC) but it specifically states that:


"This Product Requires the use of the Dungeons and Dragons(r) Player's Hand Book, Third Edition, Published by Wizards of the Coast(r)"

in a little grey/silver "plaque" on the back on the book.

It sounds like it's 3rd party from that description, but honestly, that discussion is a very dark and confusing rabbit-hole of madness.

[AvatarVecna]

It sounds like it's 3rd party from that description, but honestly, that discussion is a very dark and confusing rabbit-hole of madness.

Still better than discussing how relevant the Rules Compendium is.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

It sounds like it's 3rd party from that description, but honestly, that discussion is a very dark and confusing rabbit-hole of madness.

The way I see it is as a base line, since WotC owns the d20 Trademark and License, any d20 rule that is made for specifically D&D 3.0 and 3.5 is a First Party rule when pertaining to that Edition of D&D. However, individual DMs may say no to anything they want to, even things out of the DMG, PHB, Spell Compendium, etc. So it falls to the DM to allow it or not regardless.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Still better than discussing how relevant the Rules Compendium is.

Careful, if Curmudgeon hears you that'll be what everyone will be talking about for the next 10 pages. :smallbiggrin:

[Carden-Gix'oth]

Still better than discussing how relevant the Rules Compendium is.

The Rules Compendium is 100% relevant as a book and as a guideline. However, as stated in the Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5e, Pg. 6 Section "Adjucating", sentences 1-3:


"When everyone gathers around the table to play the game you're (the DM) in charge. That doesn't mean you can tell people what to do outside the boundaries of the game, but it does mean that you're the final arbiter of the rules within the game. Good players will always know that you have the ultimate authority over the game mechanics, even superseding something in a rulebook."

[JNAProductions]

The Rules Compendium is 100% relevant as a book and as a guideline. However, as stated in the Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5e, Pg. 6 Section "Adjucating", sentences 1-3:


"When everyone gathers around the table to play the game you're (the DM) in charge. That doesn't mean you can tell people what to do outside the boundaries of the game, but it does mean that you're the final arbiter of the rules within the game. Good players will always know that you have the ultimate authority over the game mechanics, even superseding something in a rulebook."

I'll agree to that, but with an important note:

The DM should try to hew as closely as possible to the rules as understood by the table-this includes any officially made houserules and common understandings of RAW/RAI. In addition, whenever a DM strays from the rules as understood, they should do so to improve the overall fun of the table.

After all, a DM who changes the rules too much and too often will soon find themselves without players.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The Rules Compendium is 100% relevant as a book and as a guideline. However, as stated in the Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5e, Pg. 6 Section "Adjucating", sentences 1-3:

I think I will merely post this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/37466/does-the-rules-compendium-overrule-the-core-books) and grab some popcorn. :smallsmile:

[Carden-Gix'oth]

After all, a DM who changes the rules too much and too often will soon find themselves without players.

I'll add an addendum to that:

However, when a new situation arises that presents a hitherto unprecedented scenario, any and all rules applying to the scenario can, and should, be negotiated between the players and the DM, with the DM having the ultimate final say.

[JNAProductions]

I'll add and addendum to that:

However, when a new situation arises that presents a hitherto unprecedented scenario, any and all rules applying to the scenario can, and should, be negotiated between the players and the DM, with the DM having the ultimate final say.

And I'll...

Let that stand. Nothing more need be added, methinks.

Really, that's the number one thing you have to do as a DM and as a player-talk to the others at your table. If there's an issue, explain that, and work together for a solution.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

Ninja, if you need/want the 3.5e books, shoot me a message. I think the SRD has most of them (or at least, the rules pertaining to them), and I have a list of links that can help you out.


Note: This is an offer to direct to non-copyrighted OGC SRD material. It is (so far as I know) not against the Community Guidelines to offer such. I simply can't say "Here's a link to the actual D&D rulebooks, as they are copyrighted....

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ninja, if you need/want the 3.5e books, shoot me a message. I think the SRD has most of them (or at least, the rules pertaining to them), and I have a list of links that can help you out.


Note: This is an offer to direct to non-copyrighted OGC SRD material. It is (so far as I know) not against the Community Guidelines to offer such. I simply can't say "Here's a link to the actual D&D rulebooks, as they are copyrighted....

Okay, thank you for the offer. I'll let you know if I take you up on it.

[Quertus]

This thread can be summed up with "just because a high-level loner wizard doing experiments doesn't fight all the time doesn't mean they won't be prepared for a slightly more debilitating version of help I've fallen and I can't get up".

Thank you for that laugh!:smallbiggrin:

[Elkad]

Every roof in my lair is at least 100' high, because some of my friends are tall and/or prefer to fly.
Feather Fall the rocks coming to crush me (at only 8d6 damage, obviously none of them are very big, so it should work fine). No reason to make a Reflex save, so I can't fail that save. I caught them at 70' high, so I have a round at least. Now use my Move+Standard to do something else.
Otiluke's Sphere would be sufficient to give me time to dig through my pockets or otherwise make a plan of action. Or just double-move and hide under my adamantine work table.

I don't see how this is a threat to even a 9th level apprentice who is hanging out in his master's fortress.

[Bronk]

Here's a fun idea... I read a dnd novel a good while ago where the scenario wasn't entirely unlike the one in the OP, at least from the point of view of the non-battle wizard. Keep in mind the details are fuzzy.

In this book, for whatever reason, two drow wizards started up a wizard battle. The aggressor was a battle mage, and the target was a nominally more powerful mage that taught in one of the drow wizard schools, but wasn't geared as battle mage every day. The battle mage opened up by managing to teleport the teaching mage out into the middle of nowhere in the underdark, and they fought for a while.

Here's the thing though... realizing he was at a disadvantage, the teaching mage enacted his contingency, which was somehow completing the last few steps in the process of becoming a lich! They fought some more, and the battle mage escaped, leaving the teaching mage-lich to stew without his spell books and without prepared teleport spells, facing a years long trek back to civilization.

That could be a fun addendum to the doomed mage's story: He's caught in the earthquake, the damage is worse than he thought (maybe his con score is abysmal, or maybe a few falling rocks hit him, remember those can inflict tons of damage), and despite any last ditch efforts, dies... but is now a lich. Maybe he's done everything - done the research, made his phylactery, and completed most of the rites - but held off on the irredeemable act because he didn't want to actually die unless he had to. But, he could have captured something small but good, like a celestial petal or something, and kept it in a little silenced cage/blender on his belt with a dead man's switch. Then, just as he's dying, he's reanimated again, leaving a dead, but still useful, NPC.

[Deophaun]

Hello Ice Assassin! :smallamused:

EDIT: And Shapechange!
Yes, but he only shape changes into fish. He has a thing... well... why do you think he chose to put his tower under the ocean?

Also, every spellcaster puts ranks in Concentration so that they can cast their spells, even if they're being shot at or on a ship during a storm.
See, the problem here is how do you, as the Wizard, put ranks into Concentration? Makes sense for adventurers, who are constantly casting spells in combat or precarious situations, to get used to casting spells in combat and precarious situations. But then you get old, hang up the old adventuring runestaff, and bury yourself in books for a few decades. Are you still going to have those ranks that you honed through constant practice, or have the years taken them ranks in favor of Profession (librarian)? (Represented by the retraining rules).

Remember, the actual Wizard isn't looking at a character sheet.

[JNAProductions]

Yes, but he only shape changes into fish. He has a thing... well... why do you think he chose to put his tower under the ocean?

See, the problem here is how do you, as the Wizard, put ranks into Concentration? Makes sense for adventurers, who are constantly casting spells in combat or precarious situations, to get used to casting spells in combat and precarious situations. But then you get old, hang up the old adventuring runestaff, and bury yourself in books for a few decades. Are you still going to have those ranks that you honed through constant practice, or have the years taken them ranks in favor of Profession (librarian)? (Represented by the retraining rules).

Remember, the actual Wizard isn't looking at a character sheet.

Depends how intense your research is.

Studying books and sipping tea with other mages? Probably trained them out.

Messing with space-time and crossbreeding owlbears with platypi? Probably kept them.

[Necroticplague]

Depends how intense your research is.

Studying books and sipping tea with other mages? Probably trained them out.

Messing with space-time and crossbreeding owlbears with platypi? Probably kept them.

Considering the level of the wizard here, it more sensibly leans towards the latter. At that point, you've already got the ability to cast basically anything known if you take a couple days to go over a proper treatise. The power of magics that you'd need to do anything approaching hard research for would require one of two things:

1. Hunting down obscure esoterica and lost snippets of awesome power. Or, in other words, adventuring.
"They say deep within hell, there are obscure amendments to the Pact Primeval that can be used to more effectively bind Outsiders. Whose up for a road trip to check?"

2. Experimenting to find entirely new aspects of arcane lore. Already being on the frontier of arcane knowledge, your solution is then terry forth into the unknown.

Of course, experiments can always go wrong, so you need to have some backup plans in place. Just like my own tinkering is done with fume hoods and fire extinguishers, our arcane academic would have some basic magical protections in place just in case.

[AvatarVecna]

Careful, if Curmudgeon hears you that'll be what everyone will be talking about for the next 10 pages. :smallbiggrin:


The Rules Compendium is 100% relevant as a book and as a guideline. However, as stated in the Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5e, Pg. 6 Section "Adjucating", sentences 1-3:


"When everyone gathers around the table to play the game you're (the DM) in charge. That doesn't mean you can tell people what to do outside the boundaries of the game, but it does mean that you're the final arbiter of the rules within the game. Good players will always know that you have the ultimate authority over the game mechanics, even superseding something in a rulebook."


I think I will merely post this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/37466/does-the-rules-compendium-overrule-the-core-books) and grab some popcorn. :smallsmile:

1) When I mentioned it, that wasn't a request to instigate that discussion. :smalltongue:

2) Given that it's been 22 months since he was last active, I think we might be safe from Curmudgeon's derailment, although probably not for happy reasons. :smallfrown:

[Telok]

What's funny was that my very first though was that at some point the wizard opens the front door of his permanent (via wish) magnificent mansion and a few wet rocks roll in.

Presuming an ixnay on the wish the second thought was that a contingent resilient sphere/greater teleport/programmed illusion combo goes off (greater teleport - the sanctum of my 17th level cleric friend, illusion - mage in the resilient sphere making rude gestures at everyone).

Presuming an fiat fail on the teleport and a fiat crushing of the sphere then it gets awkward when he awakens from his astral projection (via Neutral Good Nightmare via Helm of Opposite Alignment & magic boosted diplomacy check) somewhere in Celestia. Because he has to explain to everyone that he got killed by a measly natural phenomenon that commoners regularly survive.

[Arcanist]

Remember, I'm just trying to get this guy killed and I'm trying to counter any arguments my players would have in favor of sparing the life of this NPC.

Why not just make the guy die of a heart attack if this is your goal. He's an old guy, old people die from literally getting hugged too hard, or eating the wrong type of food for crying out loud.


Show me two NPC wizards with ranks in knowledge (nature) from official sources that are not nature-themed. Those are rare and levels don't help. And without ranks in knowledge(x) you can't roll a check whose DC is higher than 10. Recognizing an earthquake is DC 12.

Larloch on page 161 of Lords of Darkness has ranks in Knowledge (Nature), and a non-epic level example would be Caphodel Berrandar from Complete Mage page 73 (He's an Enchanter Master Specialist). I don't think you actually wanted an answer to this, but I find this to just be plain silly :smallwink:

[Troacctid]

I'll do you one better. I have an old character sheet of a 12th level wizard. Let's pull it up and see how he fares.

Yup, he has teleport, so he's out. Wow, that was easy.

[Jon_Dahl]

I have read all the comments so far and thought about each and every one of them and considered all the arguments very carefully, and how far I haven't seen anything between post #50 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23630184&postcount=50) and this post that would convince that working in a room which he has warded with a Dimensional Lock and failing to walk out of that room in time before the walls come down would not kill him. He trusts that the fortress will hold. This is of course just one of the scenarios.

[Troacctid]

I have read all the comments so far and thought about each and every one of them and considered all the arguments very carefully, and how far I haven't seen anything between post #50 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23630184&postcount=50) and this post that would convince that working in a room which he has warded with a Dimensional Lock and failing to walk out of that room in time before the walls come down would not kill him. He trusts that the fortress will hold. This is of course just one of the scenarios.
My wizard still survives if you level him up to 18, because now he has wish, which also has no somatic components.

It makes no sense for there to be a dimensional lock on the place though, because that's how the wizard gets in and out of the lab. Anticipate teleportation is a much better countermeasure.

[Nightcanon]

It could partly be because many people have myriads of misconception concerning how powerful and flexible high level tier 1 spellcasters actually are.




The amount of optimization needed to survive this scenario is pretty low, to be honest.

Sure. It's the disconnect between "I don't know about this, please advise", and the subsequent insistence that this will definitely work, because there's no way that the intended victim can know about natural earthquakes, that seems odd.

[EldritchWeaver]

I have read all the comments so far and thought about each and every one of them and considered all the arguments very carefully, and how far I haven't seen anything between post #50 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23630184&postcount=50) and this post that would convince that working in a room which he has warded with a Dimensional Lock and failing to walk out of that room in time before the walls come down would not kill him. He trusts that the fortress will hold. This is of course just one of the scenarios.

What about the comments, where people state "contingent shapechange, triggered when being under harm"? Employing this tactic is an insurance against many unforeseen circumstance and is a way to be more confident in your security, not less.

[Jon_Dahl]

What about the comments, where people state "contingent shapechange, triggered when being under harm"? Employing this tactic is an insurance against many unforeseen circumstance and is a way to be more confident in your security, not less.

Ignored, of course, because Shapechange cannot be used with contingency. I don't know whether I should feel slightly disappointed or perhaps even irritated when I have requested to hear the words of wisdom from those playgrounders who "have a solid understanding of the proper use of high-level spells" and then they offer me a contingency+shapechange combo (http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/spchlss.gif), but I'm not perfect and nobody's perfect, so I'm just going to be grateful when people take the time to send me some words in a sequence.

[Troacctid]

You can get higher-level contingencies with Craft Contingent Spell, which is always a solid pick for the 15th level wizard bonus feat.

[Jon_Dahl]

You can get higher-level contingencies with Craft Contingent Spell, which is always a solid pick for the 15th level wizard bonus feat.

This is a good point, but we don't use Complete Arcane. This demonstrates a mistake that I have made: limiting the available material. I regret that I didn't provide a list of what books can be used in the OP, but that's okay. It's a learning experience.

[Nightcanon]

Your plan works fine in your campaign if that's how your campaign works. You can shut down player objections along the lines of "wouldn't a high level wizard do X?" if that's how your table works. You can even get irritated with strangers who have responded to request for help if they decline to agree with you, if that's how you work.
Consensus seems to be that a high-level wizard would never box themselves in in such a way, and would have protections in place as described.

[EldritchWeaver]

This is a good point, but we don't use Complete Arcane. This demonstrates a mistake that I have made: limiting the available material. I regret that I didn't provide a list of what books can be used in the OP, but that's okay. It's a learning experience.

Then Clone and store the body at a place of your choosing (properly paranoid to ensure no one can to the storage, but you can get out of the storage - this depends on source material, but using lead to avoid scrying and other shenanigans should be in the means for any 18th level wizard and maxed Know(arcana)) should provide a simply contingency in case you die unexpectedly.

[Jon_Dahl]

Then Clone and store the body at a place of your choosing (properly paranoid to ensure no one can to the storage, but you can get out of the storage - this depends on source material, but using lead to avoid scrying and other shenanigans should be in the means for any 18th level wizard and maxed Know(arcana)) should provide a simply contingency in case you die unexpectedly.

Is there any reason why the only clone couldn't be behind a secret door in the fortress with lots of accompanying magic traps?

[EldritchWeaver]

Is there any reason why the only clone couldn't be behind a secret door in the fortress with lots of accompanying magic traps?

For the same reason people in this day and age use offsite backups.

To put it simple: It is possible in core to get infinite wishes, so infinite money. Which means that anyone clever enough to think about some protection can say: "I could actually afford everything, what can be done?" Having several offsite backup clones fully equipped and protected with whatever shenanigans to ensure that in case of death you are likely to return is some effort to get to, but for someone who has adventured and knows that any given moment you might die, this is in that situation just natural.

[AvatarVecna]

I have read all the comments so far and thought about each and every one of them and considered all the arguments very carefully, and how far I haven't seen anything between post #50 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23630184&postcount=50) and this post that would convince that working in a room which he has warded with a Dimensional Lock and failing to walk out of that room in time before the walls come down would not kill him. He trusts that the fortress will hold. This is of course just one of the scenarios.


Ignored, of course, because Shapechange cannot be used with contingency. I don't know whether I should feel slightly disappointed or perhaps even irritated when I have requested to hear the words of wisdom from those playgrounders who "have a solid understanding of the proper use of high-level spells" and then they offer me a contingency+shapechange combo (http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/spchlss.gif), but I'm not perfect and nobody's perfect, so I'm just going to be grateful when people take the time to send me some words in a sequence.


This is a good point, but we don't use Complete Arcane. This demonstrates a mistake that I have made: limiting the available material. I regret that I didn't provide a list of what books can be used in the OP, but that's okay. It's a learning experience.

Winning internet arguments in a legitimate fashion is a lot easier if you move the goalposts to where you want them before you start the thread. It's not our fault you didn't specify all the limits your real game would be under, nor is it our fault that you're unwilling to research what people are talking about. I suppose this is a similar reason for why you're ignoring that one of the defenses I made makes me immune to dying from damage, and another one makes me incorporeal which a Dimensional Lock wouldn't matter for.


Is there any reason why the only clone couldn't be behind a secret door in the fortress with lots of accompanying magic traps?

The point of having clones like this is a contingency for if **** goes wrong. Asking "why isn't the clone also here in the fortress" is like asking why Voldemort didn't keep all his horcruxes in arm's reach at all times; if worst came to worst and somebody nuked his location (and we accept the premise that nuclear detonations can destroy horcruxes), even the biggest nukes won't have the area to get more than maybe two horcruxes, and at least two of them were in locations that are arguably nuke-proof. He didn't keep every Horcrux in arms reach because that would defeat the point of having a backup plan against death: namely, to survive in case something unpredictable happens and kills him. Sure, he keeps one horcrux in arms reach, but the other five he intentionally created are hidden away in:
Gringotts, a magic bank with a plaque at the door daring everybody who enters to try and rob them
Hogwarts, a thousand-year-old magic school defended by ancient wards and some of the most skilled mages in the country who will die before letting people breach the defenses and get in attacking range of children
The personal home of a wealthy and exceedingly unscrupulous aristocrat
The old shack where his mother's family died that nobody would know or care about, filled to the brim with powerful magic traps that nearly killed Dumbledore
A cave by the sea nobody should've been able to connect with Voldemort (because that would require them knowing he's Tom Riddle), that requires a blood sacrifice to enter, will only allow one person to approach, requires at least two people to successfully retrieve it - one to drink dehydration poison and the other to force them when they can no longer force themselves (and we know Volde didn't have a secret way around this step because in the flashback he used Kreacher to get around this), and then filled the lake with zombies that attack you if you touch the water.

This challenge is poorly-designed from the get-go. The challenge is put forth as "design your own wizard, then see if what you made can survive this calamity", and a number of people have put forth plans, and you've just continually moved the goalposts, turning this whole thread into Schrodinger's Wizard vs Schrodinger's Earthquake. And based on what you're posting, I don't think either of these things should be Schrodingers, they should be set in stone. The mage in your game that you're trying to kill isn't a hypothetical as-of-yet-unstatted wizard, he's an actual person in your game - either a PC somebody else built, or an NPC that you've built/are building. Perhaps instead of asking us to build a wizard, and then getting huffy when it turns out that wizards have a wide array of defenses that can theoretically protect them personally from anything and everything (including back up bodies, several different shades of immortality, a few different ways of being immune to being pinned by rubble, a few different ways of teleporting out through any anti-teleporting defenses we might've set up, a spell to give us precognitive warnings that something's gonna hurt us and breach our defenses, spells and feats that let us set up spells that will whisk us away from danger with no further action on our part based on pre-selected conditions, and straight-up Time Travel), maybe take a step back, take a deep breath, and then share with us the stats of the actual mage you're trying to murder, and the actual set-up of his lair, and we'll let you know if there's something in his statblock that would let him do this. Or, if he's an NPC, you could just...y'know, kill him off. You could just say that he was confident in his base's defenses and didn't have contingencies ready for if they failed for some reason, or that he didn't have defensive buffs ready on the off-chance he got attacked in his home.

But if you come here and ask "is there a way to build a wizard 18 and his lair where this scenario would fail to kill him", it doesn't matter what the scenario is, the answer is "if the wizard is paranoid enough, that fails to kill him". Because again: precognition, several different flavors of immortality, craft contingent spell, literal time travel, infinite XP-free wishes, unlimited backup bodies, unbreakable force effects keeping the lair protected, and incorporeality are all on the table with Schrodinger's Wizard 18.

If I'm optimized enough to invest at least one skill point in a highly useful knowledge skill (especially when I have ****-all better to spend them on), the earthquake happening doesn't catch me off guard. If my lair is reinforced with force effects, techtonic plates shifting are not strong enough to break my fortress. If I'm optimized enough (via Heroics + Dark Chaos Shuffle), I have Martial Study to pick up those feats that let you roll Concentration in place of saving throws - so now I literally can't fail the "save" to avoid getting pinned even on a nat 1. But even if I did get pinned, the damage isn't enough to knock me unconscious and my concentration is high enough to never fail to cast even with an earthquake distracting me, so I can cast any of a half-dozen spells that would get me out of there without somatic components. But even if I was capable of flubbing the concentration check, I can still activate magic items that'll save me, and the contingencies I set up for escaping my lair in case the unthinkable happens still go off because I'm not casting them now, I cast them then, and they'll get out just fine. But even if I don't have those, if I'm optimized enough I can just hang out in the rubble for the next few thousand years while erosion chips away at the rubble and my enchantments (since I don't need to eat, sleep, or breath, and am immune to aging, nonlethal damage, and dying from lethal damage), and then when I'm free I can just time travel back. But even if I'm not functionally immortal like that, it will turn out that I have paid my cleric buddy to True Resurrection me if he doesn't hear from me every month, or I have a Clone body stored away in another location, or the me that died in the lair was actually an Astral Projection of my real body which is sitting in my secured private demiplane and is perfectly fine, or I'll just Plane Shift to the material from whatever afterlife I ended up in.

When I gain 5th level spells, travel time and random encounters become a thing of the past. When I gain 6th level spells, I get to cast spells before the combat that will go off on conditions to save me, and I have infinite free wishes if I want. When I gain 7th level spells, all my buff spells last for 36 days, I can pierce the dimensional barrier on a whim, and the weather conforms to my desires. At 8th level spells, death becomes a temporary inconvenience at best, as does being pinned (either by gaining incorporeality or the earth glide ability). At 9th level spells, two separate spells make true death an impossibility, I have infinite feats if I want them, I can grant my own Wishes (which don't have a somatic component so I could use them to escape the pin), I can be warned of any incoming danger, and I can travel through time. You cannot construct a scenario that gets around everything a wizard could do at that level, because what they can do is "literally anything, including ignore anything". What you could do is be prepared for what this specific wizard is capable of, and the scenario he's in, and if you give us that information, we'll look through what he's got and let you know if he's got stuff that could save him.

[Selion]

Il i may suggest, being a 18th-level wizard does't make him less human, he has still human weakness. A secret lover may have access to his eldritch fortress, breaching temporary its defenses, or he could be addicted to lust and forced to leave his place to have parties, or he could be an obsessive collector and would have to meet customers, or he could have had a forbidden pact with some outsider to reach the height of his power.
Even better, if you really want this guy dead, why don't you make your PCs kill him, using one of these flaws? Maybe your PCs found he has tricked them someway, selling information to their foes

[Grim Reader]

I'm quite take with the "Betrayed by the lover he trusted with all his secrets" really.

Otherwise, I think a lot depends on just how paranoid this particular Wizard is, and how he gained his power. If he did that adventuring... no-one is going to get to that kind of power doing something that dangerous without being very competent, defensive and for someone as fragile as a Wizard, prepared.

However, if this is a world where you can gain that much magical power by studying and academia, the guy may simply be a bit unworldly and unprepared.

Also, if he is doing research or what have you, he does not necessarily have his adventuring spell load up. A lot of those slots could be taken up by spells for research, anti-baldness and summoning nymphs.

Anyway, my five-second preparation is a Silenced, Stilled Lesser Wish as a panic button.

[AMFV]

It's your game man, you're the DM you can definitely rule that automatically kills the wizard. If it's a PC though expect a lot of bitching (and rightly so) about it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I want to point out that you can change Shapechange forms as a free action so there's no real need to make it contingent.

[zlefin]

I have read all the comments so far and thought about each and every one of them and considered all the arguments very carefully, and how far I haven't seen anything between post #50 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23630184&postcount=50) and this post that would convince that working in a room which he has warded with a Dimensional Lock and failing to walk out of that room in time before the walls come down would not kill him. He trusts that the fortress will hold. This is of course just one of the scenarios.

personally, I saw several things that I think would work; but I haven't been keeping track by post numbers, so maybe they were all before that.

[Elkad]

My wizard still survives if you level him up to 18, because now he has wish, which also has no somatic components.

It makes no sense for there to be a dimensional lock on the place though, because that's how the wizard gets in and out of the lab. Anticipate teleportation is a much better countermeasure.


Anticipate Teleportation rates right up there with Mind Blank on my list of necessary every-day buffs. And you get it MUCH sooner.
(I'm not fond of the Greater version though, the longer delay makes it awkward to use to protect teammates - but if I wasn't expecting company that day, I might use it.)

Wish is the spell you prepare when you have no idea what spells you need for the day. Which makes it the perfect emergency spell to have when you are relaxing in your lair and the majority of your slots are full of crafting/research spells.
Metamagic Rod or Arcane Thesis recommended as well, so when someone with Silence running uses his own Wish to drop on top of you, you can still use it as a panic button.

[Necroticplague]

I want to point out that you can change Shapechange forms as a free action so there's no real need to make it contingent.

It has a somatic component (so you can't cast it when you're pinned), and it doesn't last very long (so, barring Spelldancer or Incantatrix, you can't have it up all day), and it's 9th level (so, barring epic, you can't metamagic it so solve either of those last two).

[Elkad]

...When I gain 7th level spells, all my buff spells last for 36 days...

OK, you lost me on that one.
Explain please?

[Bronk]

When I gain 7th level spells, all my buff spells last for 36 days

I'm not familiar with this, could you please elaborate?

[ericgrau]

If you're still trying to use a fluke to kill an 18th level wizard that isn't a TO wizard, honestly all you need is a bad roll on a dumb SOD monster. He can't prepare for all forms of SOD without 973 divinations and cheesy tricks like craft contingent spell. So an unexpected monster appears, he rolls a 3, and he dies. High level characters are constantly dying and being resurrected. The reason need only be that he was researching away from his party and got jumped. Your more complicated challenge is determining why no one resurrected him. Perhaps he was to be away for a year in a "secure" secluded location and no one has even checked on him yet. Perhaps once the PCs find his buddies they'll say "Oh, thanks, true rez! Eh, we would have gotten to him eventually anyway, but we were all busy with our own adventurer retirement plans and machinations. I'm building a holy nation." Or etc.

Or, heck, freak lightning strike.

[AvatarVecna]

OK, you lost me on that one.
Explain please?


I'm not familiar with this, could you please elaborate?

Wellb I guess when I get 7th level spells, it'd be 26 days instead. Or depending on interpretation, your buff spells just last forever. The specific thing being done there was using Limited Wish to replicate Extended Acorn Of Far Travel on an oak on a timeless plane, so that you count as being on a timeless plane when casting all your buffs. I guess there's probably a handful of ways to pull this off prior to Limited Wish, but that's a way for a straight wizard to pull it off without any other shenanigans like "binding a genie to replicate it for you" or "sniping spells off the druid/ranger list somehow".

[Elkad]

Wellb I guess when I get 7th level spells, it'd be 26 days instead. Or depending on interpretation, your buff spells just last forever. The specific thing being done there was using Limited Wish to replicate Extended Acorn Of Far Travel on an oak on a timeless plane, so that you count as being on a timeless plane when casting all your buffs. I guess there's probably a handful of ways to pull this off prior to Limited Wish, but that's a way for a straight wizard to pull it off without any other shenanigans like "binding a genie to replicate it for you" or "sniping spells off the druid/ranger list somehow".

Ahh. Takes a fairly liberal interpretation of that spell. I doubt I'd let it fly (or use it for an NPC) at my table.

[Jack_Simth]

It has a somatic component (so you can't cast it when you're pinned), and it doesn't last very long (so, barring Spelldancer or Incantatrix, you can't have it up all day), and it's 9th level (so, barring epic, you can't metamagic it so solve either of those last two).
You can have it up essentially all day as a pure Wizard-18, even in a Core-only game. A Greater Rod of Extend Spell, two 9th level Pearls of Power. A regular Shapechange lasts 180 minutes (3 hours), Rod-extended that's six hours per casting (and the rod works 3 times a day). Two Pearls of power recover the slot twice, the rod works three times per day, so you get three castings at 6 hours each = 18 hours of coverage that way out of one 9th level spell slot. Sleep in a Magnificent Mansion or a Rope Trick or whatever, and the earthquake can't hit you unprepared. It's expensive to do it that way, but a Wizard-18 (even a Core-only one) has a lot of ways to multiply wealth without limit or even make it essentially out of thin air.

And, of course, Shapechange can do MANY different highly-useful things (including prevent a collapse from harming you), and isn't stopped by teleport-blocking effects.

[Necroticplague]

You can have it up essentially all day as a pure Wizard-18, even in a Core-only game. A Greater Rod of Extend Spell, two 9th level Pearls of Power. A regular Shapechange lasts 180 minutes (3 hours), Rod-extended that's six hours per casting (and the rod works 3 times a day). Two Pearls of power recover the slot twice, the rod works three times per day, so you get three castings at 6 hours each = 18 hours of coverage that way out of one 9th level spell slot. Sleep in a Magnificent Mansion or a Rope Trick or whatever, and the earthquake can't hit you unprepared. It's expensive to do it that way, but a Wizard-18 (even a Core-only one) has a lot of ways to multiply wealth without limit or even make it essentially out of thin air.

And, of course, Shapechange can do MANY different highly-useful things (including prevent a collapse from harming you), and isn't stopped by teleport-blocking effects.

Huh, my memory had failed me. I thought it was a 1 round/level spell. Yeah, being off by a factor of 100 makes a big difference in that department.

[King of Nowhere]

there's no need to discuss in depth the ways a prepared wizard may survive a cave-in, because of couse he can, and very easily.

But let's cut the op some slack; it is not unreasonable to assume that such cave-in would kill the wizard.

Say the wizard had a contingency to teleport away when he spoke a command word (a common contingency, as speaking is a free action), but he got his mouth ffilled with gravel in the collapse, so he can't speak the word. and he didn't took both still and silent spells (it's 2 different feats, after all), nor did he got a ring of freedom of movement (it's very expensive for npc wbl).
or say that his contingency was dimension door, and the dimension door still brought him underwater. He tries to cast teleport, but he fails the concentratio check for the crushing damage of the water pressure, and he didn't have another one (this teleport was already a backup; how many backuup do you assume a wizard has anyway? spell slots are not infinite, and he needed some for his research).
Say his contingency fails because it was worded to teleport him to a safe location, but the safe location got destroied.
Say he kept an antimagic area in his castle for some experimental purpose, and the cave-in made him fall just inside it.

If you want to justify an 18th level wizard dead to an earthquake, you have plenty of ways to do it.
Many people confuse "a wizard can do it with ennough preparation" with "a wizard will always be prepared to do it". Especially outside of the higher levvels of optimization, a wizard will never be prepared for everything.

Re: a wizard should recognize an earthquake. Knowing it exist? Certainly. Figure it out after the fact? Definitely. Telling, within the first 6 seconds, that it's an earthquake, and not the passing of a large earth elemental or the thaumic generator malfunctioning again? No, it's fully possible that the wizard won't recognize the earthquake at first. Even recognizing it, it's fully possible that the wizard will think himself safe.
Re: multiple contingencies. 100% of DM I know will not allow them, as it exceptionally overpowered. One wizard, one contingence. Granted, I only know 2 DM, but 2 out of 2 is still 100% of the sample.

[AvatarVecna]

there's no need to discuss in depth the ways a prepared wizard may survive a cave-in, because of couse he can, and very easily.

But let's cut the op some slack; it is not unreasonable to assume that such cave-in would kill the wizard.

It's not unreasonable to assume anything could kill a wizard no matter how high level, because wizards could very well be acting stupidly (or at least unwisely). And the specific wizard the OP is trying to deal with is under their control, so they're the ones who decide how screwed this particular wizard is from both sides of it. It's just really weird to come into a thread asking "can you make a wizard who could survive an unknown calamity", to make a wizard who turns out to have way over-prepared and has fairly easy solutions to the almost-not-even-inconvenient 'calamity' proposed, only for the OP to spend the whole thread constantly moving the goalposts back, including cutting off splat access when those splats prove problematic, and declaring that it seems no wizard presented can really survive this calamity.

[The Glyphstone]

Should be noted at unless you are Teleporting into/out of a dimensionally locked area, Teleport/Contingent Teleport/Greater Teleport cannot 'fail' - the Concentration check to cast it can fail, but the spell itself is going to do something if it is successfully cast. Even if the targeted destination no longer exists, that just means repeatedly rolling until you get 'Similar Location' instead of 'Mishap'.

Granted, that does provide an entirely legitimate way to kill the wizard. He triggers his Contingent Teleport to a safe place that isn't safe anymore, and happens to roll enough Mishaps in a row to accidentally oneshot himself.

Whether he stays dead is a question for clones et all. But an earthquake collapsing his lair and setting off his contingency could legitimately kill him, for all that it's an extremely low percentile chance of doing so; 18d4 Hit Dice with Con 16 makes a neat average 100 HP, 40% chance of a Mishap with 1d10 per consecutive Mishap means, if I did my math right, a .0000001% or 1 in 10 million odds.

[Jon_Dahl]

there's no need to discuss in depth the ways a prepared wizard may survive a cave-in, because of couse he can, and very easily.

But let's cut the op some slack; it is not unreasonable to assume that such cave-in would kill the wizard.

Say the wizard had a contingency to teleport away when he spoke a command word (a common contingency, as speaking is a free action), but he got his mouth ffilled with gravel in the collapse, so he can't speak the word. and he didn't took both still and silent spells (it's 2 different feats, after all), nor did he got a ring of freedom of movement (it's very expensive for npc wbl).
or say that his contingency was dimension door, and the dimension door still brought him underwater. He tries to cast teleport, but he fails the concentratio check for the crushing damage of the water pressure, and he didn't have another one (this teleport was already a backup; how many backuup do you assume a wizard has anyway? spell slots are not infinite, and he needed some for his research).
Say his contingency fails because it was worded to teleport him to a safe location, but the safe location got destroied.
Say he kept an antimagic area in his castle for some experimental purpose, and the cave-in made him fall just inside it.

If you want to justify an 18th level wizard dead to an earthquake, you have plenty of ways to do it.
Many people confuse "a wizard can do it with ennough preparation" with "a wizard will always be prepared to do it". Especially outside of the higher levvels of optimization, a wizard will never be prepared for everything.

Re: a wizard should recognize an earthquake. Knowing it exist? Certainly. Figure it out after the fact? Definitely. Telling, within the first 6 seconds, that it's an earthquake, and not the passing of a large earth elemental or the thaumic generator malfunctioning again? No, it's fully possible that the wizard won't recognize the earthquake at first. Even recognizing it, it's fully possible that the wizard will think himself safe.
Re: multiple contingencies. 100% of DM I know will not allow them, as it exceptionally overpowered. One wizard, one contingence. Granted, I only know 2 DM, but 2 out of 2 is still 100% of the sample.

Thank you, this was what I was wanting to hear.

[JNAProductions]

Thank you, this was what I was wanting to hear.

That's kinda the problem. You had an answer in mind when you asked the question-that's bad form.

Edit: I've been guilty of the same myself, so it's not just you. But still-something to be avoided.

[AvatarVecna]

Thank you, this was what I was wanting to hear.

We know. :smallamused:

[Jon_Dahl]

Should be noted at unless you are Teleporting into/out of a dimensionally locked area, Teleport/Contingent Teleport/Greater Teleport cannot 'fail' - the Concentration check to cast it can fail, but the spell itself is going to do something if it is successfully cast. Even if the targeted destination no longer exists, that just means repeatedly rolling until you get 'Similar Location' instead of 'Mishap'.

Granted, that does provide an entirely legitimate way to kill the wizard. He triggers his Contingent Teleport to a safe place that isn't safe anymore, and happens to roll enough Mishaps in a row to accidentally oneshot himself.

Whether he stays dead is a question for clones et all. But an earthquake collapsing his lair and setting off his contingency could legitimately kill him, for all that it's an extremely low percentile chance of doing so; 18d4 Hit Dice with Con 16 makes a neat average 100 HP, 40% chance of a Mishap with 1d10 per consecutive Mishap means, if I did my math right, a .0000001% or 1 in 10 million odds.

A teleport inside a Dimensional Locked area will fail but a teleport triggered by contingency will work? Did I understand this right? I'm not going to argue against you, but I would not accept that if a player tried that, unless that player came up with written evidence within a minute or so. In that case it would fly. And the math behind the mishap is interesting.

[Necroticplague]

Re: a wizard should recognize an earthquake. Knowing it exist? Certainly. Figure it out after the fact? Definitely. Telling, within the first 6 seconds, that it's an earthquake, and not the passing of a large earth elemental or the thaumic generator malfunctioning again? No, it's fully possible that the wizard won't recognize the earthquake at first. Even recognizing it, it's fully possible that the wizard will think himself safe.

If the wizard has something where its malfunctioning is violent enough that he can confuse an earthquake for it, shouldn't he have basic contingencies in place for that that would also cover an earthquake, just like how any lab can stave off many unexpected accidents because its safegaurds for the expected accidents tend to fail safe?

[EldritchWeaver]

There is actually a RAW way to get a character killed, with no resurrection, if the char isn't immortal: Let him die of old age.

[Efrate]

I am still doubting the wizard living in an underwater cave and not having either used wall of force to reinforce stuff, always having at least heart of water/freedom of movement and waterbreathing or the equivalent always ready.

You don't live on the plane of fire and not have a way to be immune to fire damage, either by gaining the subtype or something, and if its a temporary immumity you always have at least one extra just in case so a rogue dispel or something doesn't ruin you.

You don't live underwater without a way to breathe water and be immune to pressure and able to act normally. If nothing else silent still teleport should always be available, with or without celerity/greater celerity available. You have tons of other options but in case stuff goes bad you always need a backup plan.

Even if its just one plan not a thousand. The more dangerous your research/adventuring the more backups to have.

[ColorBlindNinja]

But let's cut the op some slack; it is not unreasonable to assume that such cave-in would kill the wizard.

No, it's not reasonable in the slightest.


Say the wizard had a contingency to teleport away when he spoke a command word (a common contingency, as speaking is a free action), but he got his mouth ffilled with gravel in the collapse, so he can't speak the word.

You're still assuming that the Wizard would hole up in a lair where this scenario is even possible, which isn't a given at all.


and he didn't took both still and silent spells (it's 2 different feats, after all),

Why not a Metamagic Rod of Silent spell? Then cast Teleport (verbal only)?


nor did he got a ring of freedom of movement (it's very expensive for npc wbl).

And, why, pray tell wouldn't this Wizard have cast Heart of Water? It lasts hours per level and gives you a Freedom of Movement effect.


or say that his contingency was dimension door, and the dimension door still brought him underwater. He tries to cast teleport, but he fails the concentratio check for the crushing damage of the water pressure,

Even though there's a spell that makes the caster immune to water pressure?

How much damage is this Wizard taking that's making her fail that check?


and he didn't have another one (this teleport was already a backup; how many backuup do you assume a wizard has anyway?

Considering this Wizard can have up to 18 Contingencies?


spell slots are not infinite,

Oh, but they can be. :smallamused:


and he needed some for his research).

Shapechanging into an Elemental Weird ought to suffice for that purpose.



Say his contingency fails because it was worded to teleport him to a safe location, but the safe location got destroied.
Say he kept an antimagic area in his castle for some experimental purpose, and the cave-in made him fall just inside it.

I can't help but notice an awful lot of "ifs" in this scenario.


If you want to justify an 18th level wizard dead to an earthquake, you have plenty of ways to do it.

Not without it ending up being contrived.


Many people confuse "a wizard can do it with ennough preparation" with "a wizard will always be prepared to do it". Especially outside of the higher levvels of optimization, a wizard will never be prepared for everything.

Wizards can predict the future, that alone would probably stop this entire scenario before it began.



Re: multiple contingencies. 100% of DM I know will not allow them, as it exceptionally overpowered. One wizard, one contingence. Granted, I only know 2 DM, but 2 out of 2 is still 100% of the sample.

Utterly irrelevant.


There is actually a RAW way to get a character killed, with no resurrection, if the char isn't immortal: Let him die of old age.

Well, Wizards have ways around that. :smallwink:

[ericgrau]

You can have it up essentially all day as a pure Wizard-18, even in a Core-only game. A Greater Rod of Extend Spell, two 9th level Pearls of Power. A regular Shapechange lasts 180 minutes (3 hours), Rod-extended that's six hours per casting (and the rod works 3 times a day). Two Pearls of power recover the slot twice, the rod works three times per day, so you get three castings at 6 hours each = 18 hours of coverage that way out of one 9th level spell slot. Sleep in a Magnificent Mansion or a Rope Trick or whatever, and the earthquake can't hit you unprepared. It's expensive to do it that way, but a Wizard-18 (even a Core-only one) has a lot of ways to multiply wealth without limit or even make it essentially out of thin air.

And, of course, Shapechange can do MANY different highly-useful things (including prevent a collapse from harming you), and isn't stopped by teleport-blocking effects.

Awesome you just blew half your wizard's WBL on shapechange, half on something else. So... a 3rd thing killed you and you ran out of money and spell slots to be prepared for it. Easy, problem solved. Dead wizard. Um, let's say:

Volcanic eruption at your location. Yeup, new volcano. In your dimensionally locked room. 20d6 per round. Concentration DC 45 to cast in that much ongoing damage. Probably prohibitively high DC even if fire immune just from the liquid & solid chunky rocks gushing upward. And suffocation, bludgeoning from being battered about, etc. So I imagine shapechange into fire elemental, cool only took 1 round of fire damage, keep getting battered and losing more HP while being unable to cast.

Or of course high level enemy is the more common and simple answer for high level play which I'm sure will eventually work. But I thought I'd play with a freak natural disaster to better fit the thread theme.

Clarification edit 4:04pm forum time: Wizard is still in a deep underground lab.

So what else you got with your remaining half WBL & less 9th level spells? No writing your answer before opening the spoiler. No TO nonsense like chain gating solars.

Although I think a party finds out and rezzes you/rescues you is an easy answer to most problems. But then the internet wizard would have to admit he shouldn't be trying to survive on his own at high level. Make a clone I guess. Except for certain problems where that doesn't work. But honestly just have a party, easy, problem solved. No need to find out surprise challenge #457 still takes you down and you ran out of gold and spell slots 415 challenges ago.

[MeimuHakurei]

I want you guys to humor me a bit: What survival methods does a 18th Level Fighter have to offer in such a situation? And if it's a party thing, can he also save an incapacitated Wizard? Feel free to discuss this scenario with a like-levelled Rogue and Cleric as well.

[Zanos]

I just don't understand why OP is so attached to the cave in scenario killing what is nearly a physical god. There are many ways to kill a 9th level wizard when you're the DM that aren't nearly as contrived.


I want you guys to humor me a bit: What survival methods does a 18th Level Fighter have to offer in such a situation? And if it's a party thing, can he also save an incapacitated Wizard? Feel free to discuss this scenario with a like-levelled Rogue and Cleric as well.
A high level fighter should probably have a teleportation magic item if they are working solo. But yeah, obviously their options are not as extensive because fighter is bad.

[ericgrau]

I want you guys to humor me a bit: What survival methods does a 18th Level Fighter have to offer in such a situation? And if it's a party thing, can he also save an incapacitated Wizard? Feel free to discuss this scenario with a like-levelled Rogue and Cleric as well.

Well for most issues the cleric casts true rez and the party moves on.

I actually had an epic character with mostly fighter levels who out-utilitied most/all of the party simply with gear. Lots of cheap random doodads. Yeah, he can't do it purely with class features, but so what? It's an expected/required part of the system. The shape-changing wizard couldn't do it either and still get 24 hours. At high level everybody poops magic. Getting magical stuff to do to each other isn't that hard, and that's exactly how WBL makes high level spell-casting less special. As it is supposed to. As for his party contribution, the party buffs the snot out of him and/or his gear does (My guy handled most/all of my own buffs), then they chuck him at baddies who have high SR and/or saves and/or supernatural senses against most other forms of attack. My epic guy was also doing the most damage and dropping the most foes, so in our casual (but experienced) gaming group I accidentally went a little too far on optimization with an epic fighter. He wasn't an ubercharger or anything crazy, but we didn't have TO wizards either.

[The Glyphstone]

A teleport inside a Dimensional Locked area will fail but a teleport triggered by contingency will work? Did I understand this right? I'm not going to argue against you, but I would not accept that if a player tried that, unless that player came up with written evidence within a minute or so. In that case it would fly. And the math behind the mishap is interesting.

It's because of two different rules. I wasn't trying to say you could Contingent Teleport out of a Dimensional Lock.

Dimensional Lock blocks teleportation. That's unambiguous, you cannot teleport into or out of a Dimensionally Locked area, it's the entire point of the spell.

When you try to teleport to a non-existent destination, then you check the teleport destination charts. In this case, "False Destination is 1d20"+80 with 81-92 (60% chance) of getting Similar Destination, and 93-100 (40%) of a Mishap. That Contingent Teleport, assuming it triggers at all, will not 'fizzle' and go nowhere if its destination doesn't exist, which is what some people appeared to be believing.

[Jon_Dahl]

It's because of two different rules. I wasn't trying to say you could Contingent Teleport out of a Dimensional Lock.

Dimensional Lock blocks teleportation. That's unambiguous, you cannot teleport into or out of a Dimensionally Locked area, it's the entire point of the spell.

When you try to teleport to a non-existent destination, then you check the teleport destination charts. In this case, "False Destination is 1d20"+80 with 81-92 (60% chance) of getting Similar Destination, and 93-100 (40%) of a Mishap. That Contingent Teleport, assuming it triggers at all, will not 'fizzle' and go nowhere if its destination doesn't exist, which is what some people appeared to be believing.

Sorry, I was a bit slow there.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Awesome you just blew half your wizard's WBL on shapechange, half on something else. So... a 3rd thing killed you and you ran out of money and spell slots to be prepared for it. Easy, problem solved. Dead wizard. Um, let's say:

The Wizard that has only cast one spell for that day?



Volcanic eruption at your location. Yeup, new volcano. In your dimensionally locked room.

Why would my room be dimensional locked? Where did this volcano come from?


20d6 per round. Concentration DC 45 to cast in that much ongoing damage. Probably prohibitively high DC even if fire immune just from the liquid & solid chunky rocks gushing upward.

If the Wizard is immune to fire, why are they being forced to make such a high Concentration check?



And suffocation, bludgeoning from being battered about, etc.

Which is easy to be immune to.


So I imagine shapechange into fire elemental,

Why Fire Elemental? How about a Wraith, they're immune to all of that.


cool only took 1 round of fire damage, keep getting battered and losing more HP while being unable to cast.

Shapechange is already up. The Wizard can just turn into whatever form she prefers and fly out.


Or of course high level enemy is the more common and simple answer for high level play which I'm sure will eventually work. But I thought I'd play with a freak natural disaster to better fit the thread theme.

It's just as contrived and silly as the OP's scenario.


So what else you got with your remaining half WBL & less 9th level spells? No writing your answer before opening the spoiler.

Contingency also breaks this scenario.


No TO nonsense like chain gating solars.

Why not? That's well within a Wizard's abilities.


Although I think a party finds out and rezzes you/rescues you is an easy answer to most problems. But then the internet wizard would have to admit he shouldn't be trying to survive on his own at high level. Make a clone I guess. Except for certain problems where that doesn't work. But honestly just have a party, easy, problem solved. No need to find out surprise challenge #457 still takes you down and you ran out of gold and spell slots 415 challenges ago.

This scenario is even worse than the earthquake one and won't threaten a level 18 Wizard at all, assuming she isn't underwear on head stupid.



I want you guys to humor me a bit: What survival methods does a 18th Level Fighter have to offer in such a situation? And if it's a party thing, can he also save an incapacitated Wizard? Feel free to discuss this scenario with a like-levelled Rogue and Cleric as well.

Well, the Fighter might have enough HP to survive the earthquake/volcano. After that, it depends what items she has.

The Rogue is similarity item dependent, while the Cleric's actions would be pretty similar to the Wizard's.

[ericgrau]

@^
Still in the underground lab, locked to prevent intruders. No actions that result in DM laughing and/or flying DMGs. I hope I don't need to explain why this includes NI loops, or I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and we can't have a discussion.

[King of Nowhere]

Thank you, this was what I was wanting to hear.

You got all wrong in your starting question, then. You started by something like "pick any spell you want, this will kill you for sure", which doesn't fly at all. In fact, a moderately optimized wizard of that level has plenty of ways to survive and should be able to survive that situation - especially if you consider that he lives underwater, so he should plan accordingly.
If you want to justify some coincidence messing up with his preparation, you can do so in a believable way. Heck, you can go a "fluff over rules" and say that the guy got knocked unconscious by falling debris to the head, even if the rules do not say anything about blows to the head. But it's a far call from "this can automatically kill a wizard". "this may kill a wizard that didn't prepare too well, but that still prepared well enough that he can be passed as something other than a total moron" is more like it


Stuff
I already answered your concerns, and similar ones, at the beginning of my post, further reinforcing them at end.

there's no need to discuss in depth the ways a prepared wizard may survive a cave-in, because of couse he can, and very easily.
[...] Especially outside of the higher levels of optimization
I understand that you want to show off your knowledge of obscure splatbook spells and techniques, but that's not what this is about.


I want you guys to humor me a bit: What survival methods does a 18th Level Fighter have to offer in such a situation? And if it's a party thing, can he also save an incapacitated Wizard? Feel free to discuss this scenario with a like-levelled Rogue and Cleric as well.
A fighter who maxxed swim and has a bottle of fresh air may manage to dig out the wizard with his high strenght, then swim to the surface sharing the bottle of air. that's the only thing I can think of that uses the fighter's capacities. otherwise, a single use teleportation item will do the trick - it's not unreasonable for a fighter of that level to have one

[ColorBlindNinja]

Still in the underground lab, locked to prevent intruders.

Wraiths can move through walls. Why is this a problem?


No actions that result in DM laughing and/or flying DMGs.

Too vague of a qualification.


I hope I don't need to explain why this includes NI loops, or I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and we can't have a discussion.

It doesn't matter, one hardly needs infinite loops to survive that scenario.


I already answered your concerns, and similar ones, at the beginning of my post, further reinforcing them at end.

I understand that you want to show off your knowledge of obscure splatbook spells and techniques, but that's not what this is about.

That doesn't magically make the OP' scenario credible. At all.

EDIT: Or the one that you purposed, for that matter.

[gkathellar]

If you want to justify some coincidence messing up with his preparation, you can do so in a believable way. Heck, you can go a "fluff over rules" and say that the guy got knocked unconscious by falling debris to the head, even if the rules do not say anything about blows to the head. But it's a far call from "this can automatically kill a wizard". "this may kill a wizard that didn't prepare too well, but that still prepared well enough that he can be passed as something other than a total moron" is more like it

Pretty much this. In the OP, it's stated that the objective of this exercise is to construct a wizard-death narrative for an NPC that the players will believe. That's easy: he got tired or sloppy and was blindsided by something he didn't see coming. There's no need to construct elaborate contingencies for why nothing could possibly go differently, because this is not Schrodinger's Wizard, it's a story beat. The question should not be, "can this automatically kill any high-level wizard we can imagine?" (it can't), but rather, "is this a plausible excuse for me to off this high-level NPC?" (it's fine).

Now, if this wizard is well-established in-universe to have Tippy-esque levels of paranoia and preparation, then the OP has written themselves into a corner. But otherwise, there's no reason to assume that every high-level spellcaster believes they live in a universe with a killer DM.

[Jon_Dahl]

"is this a plausible excuse for me to off this high-level NPC?" (it's fine).


I'm okay with this.

Also, I wanted to understand high-level magic better. It was 100% worth it, because before this thread I would have given craft contingency a thought but now my reaction will be always be this if someone mentions it:
https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7btT1T9qpQZWhNlK/giphy.gif

In addition, perhaps I should re-read this thread and take some copy-paste for my ban list.

[Eldariel]

Prep:
2x Polymorph Any Object into a generally useful form that doesn't age and has all the key immunities, say Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut). Since it lasts forever, this doesn't cost slots and there's no real reason not to do it. Alternatively, Magic Jar trick into a nice body. Either is fine.
Contingency: Teleport tied to mouthing a gibberish word - TP 500 miles up to the atmosphere; since I have Flight speed, that supports me.
Overland Flight
Phantom Steed
Magnificent Mansion (because seriously, doing things yourself is so damn oldfashioned; get your food and stuff and have your Unseen Servants do most of the menial tasks)
Extended Shapechange because it's just too useful for anything not to have, including research (accesses most spells at will)
Mind Blank because seriously, if you don't want unwanted visitors, better they don't know where you are.
Moment of Prescience because you never know which check you need it for any given day but it does a ton of useful things. Like binding fiends and forcing them into obedience or things of that nature.
I might be tempted to have Foresight too; it has all sorts of utility like figuring out whether using some ability is likely to not produce the outcome you desire and such. Slot intensive though.

Permanencied Arcane Sight and See Invisibility of course because of course.

Probably Extended versions of each Resist Energy, Mage Armor, False Life because you don't know if you randomly get burnt doing stuff. And low level slots really don't matter much for research; Shapechange can do most of that stuff alone. And maybe Greater Magic Weapon on 50 arrows for Telekinesis, because there's no real reason not to have it available.

Yadda yadda yadda, private demiplane, etc. would be nice for faster relative time and things of that nature to speed up creating stuff, studies, etc. but I'm doing this core only

EDIT: And...

Challenge:
Okay, my character can't suffocate and things of that nature so he's at worst mildly inconvenienced. He's also in the Magnificent Mansion but assuming that somehow collapsed upon itself, I could free action Shapechange into something tunneling or Earth Gliding or anything with Su teleport (Archons at least, IIRC) or Plane Shift (Bebilith) would allow me to get myself anywhere I wanted to. Contingency would probably get me out if I wanted to use it, but there's frankly no reason to use it. If I had Foresight active, I'd be able to get out before the cave-in actually took place.

I'd be annoyed at wasting time instead of doing research though. Then I'd probably tunnel into the depths of the earth again and spend few minutes building another fortress with Polymorph Any Object, Disintegrate (accessible through Shapechange as Beholder), Move Earth (accessible through Shapechange) & co.

EDIT#2: Added aftermath.

[Zanos]

In addition, perhaps I should re-read this thread and take some copy-paste for my ban list.
I don't know that "spell prevents dying from a cave in" is a good criteria to add it to a ban list. A cave in is not a CR 18 threat.

[EldritchWeaver]

Well, Wizards have ways around that. :smallwink:

Not dying of old age might be possible to achieve some way for a wizard, but the OP can have the wizard believe in the natural cycle not doing anything against that.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Not dying of old age might be possible to achieve some way for a wizard

It is. Kissed by the Ages is the simplest method, but constantly casting Astral Projection from your timeless demiplane is another.

[EldritchWeaver]

I don't know that "spell prevents dying from a cave in" is a good criteria to add it to a ban list. A cave in is not a CR 18 threat.

I think the point is to have a subset of rules, where a wizard would possible die to a cave-in. I think, at this point I'd start thinking about leaving the game. If NPCs can't have nice things, then PCs are next on the list.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think the point is to have a subset of rules, where a wizard would possible die to a cave-in. I think, at this point I'd start thinking about leaving the game. If NPCs can't have nice things, then PCs are next on the list.

I would be inclined to agree with you.


I still don't understand why the OP is insisting on killing the Wizard in this fashion. Just declare a rival spellcaster slew her and be done with it.

[lord_khaine]

I still don't understand why the OP is insisting on killing the Wizard in this fashion. Just declare a rival spellcaster slew her and be done with it.

Because its a matter of pride at this point.
The OP had his surefire way of getting a high level Wizard killed.
Posted the challenge. And found that a large part of the posters could crush it with RAW rules.

The correct way to do it would of course have been asking
"i need a way to get this level 18 wizard NPC die or vanish in a accident"

[Arcanist]

The correct way to do it would of course have been asking
"i need a way to get this level 18 wizard NPC die or vanish in a accident"

What would be the best way to make an 18th level Wizard die or vanish in an accident, without involving an external entity, or just saying "they die of old age". How would one get "Superman" out of the picture?

[Jack_Simth]

Awesome you just blew half your wizard's WBL on shapechange, half on something else. So... a 3rd thing killed you and you ran out of money and spell slots to be prepared for it. Easy, problem solved. Dead wizard. Um, let's say:

Volcanic eruption at your location. Yeup, new volcano. In your dimensionally locked room. 20d6 per round. Concentration DC 45 to cast in that much ongoing damage. Probably prohibitively high DC even if fire immune just from the liquid & solid chunky rocks gushing upward. And suffocation, bludgeoning from being battered about, etc. So I imagine shapechange into fire elemental, cool only took 1 round of fire damage, keep getting battered and losing more HP while being unable to cast.

Or of course high level enemy is the more common and simple answer for high level play which I'm sure will eventually work. But I thought I'd play with a freak natural disaster to better fit the thread theme.

Clarification edit 4:04pm forum time: Wizard is still in a deep underground lab.

So what else you got with your remaining half WBL & less 9th level spells? No writing your answer before opening the spoiler. No TO nonsense like chain gating solars.

Although I think a party finds out and rezzes you/rescues you is an easy answer to most problems. But then the internet wizard would have to admit he shouldn't be trying to survive on his own at high level. Make a clone I guess. Except for certain problems where that doesn't work. But honestly just have a party, easy, problem solved. No need to find out surprise challenge #457 still takes you down and you ran out of gold and spell slots 415 challenges ago.

Fire elemental? Pfft, no. Shadow. Spectre, unbodied, or similar. Incorporeal critters are immune to all nonmagical sources of damage.

And there is no shortage of ways to create wealth as a wiz-18.

Also: That response is a complete abandonment of the original scenario. If you'd prefer, though: At some point in the past, Prismatic Sphere + Permanency, a couple of Immovable rods, and a cot. Make a nice sphere that's immune to all mundane stuff, hang a cot in there, shapechange into a nightmare, and astral project out. Anything happens? Well, I just wake up in the sphere again.

[King of Nowhere]

I think the point is to have a subset of rules, where a wizard would possible die to a cave-in. I think, at this point I'd start thinking about leaving the game. If NPCs can't have nice things, then PCs are next on the list.

making a situation where one could die by rolling poorly several times is not "taking away the nice things". Consider, for start, that a fighter or rogue or any non-caster would have a harder time getting away alive from a major cave-in at the bottom of the ocean, so the wizard is still outstripping them. the death of the wizard requires several accidents (impossible to speak, impossible to move, fail concentration checks).
I actually prefer to play characters that can't do everything and can still fail at stuff. I'm not motivated to play a mary sue.

EDIT:

What would be the best way to make an 18th level Wizard die or vanish in an accident, without involving an external entity, or just saying "they die of old age". How would one get "Superman" out of the picture?

Well, I think to have the wizard die without invoking an equally powerful enemy, the situation presented by the op is actually one of the most realistic. There aren't many accidents that can legitimately threaten a high level wizard, and the one presented is one of the most credible ones

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well, I think to have the wizard die without invoking an equally powerful enemy, the situation presented by the op is actually one of the most realistic. There aren't many accidents that can legitimately threaten a high level wizard, and the one presented is one of the most credible ones

I strongly disagree. I would accept a supernova killing a Wizard over an earthquake. The OP's scenario isn't credible or realistic in the least.

[Quertus]

Wellb I guess when I get 7th level spells, it'd be 26 days instead. Or depending on interpretation, your buff spells just last forever. The specific thing being done there was using Limited Wish to replicate Extended Acorn Of Far Travel on an oak on a timeless plane, so that you count as being on a timeless plane when casting all your buffs. I guess there's probably a handful of ways to pull this off prior to Limited Wish, but that's a way for a straight wizard to pull it off without any other shenanigans like "binding a genie to replicate it for you" or "sniping spells off the druid/ranger list somehow".

As much as I love Persist and Extend, I'm embarrassed to admit that i never thought about Extending an Acorn of Far Travel.

... And that's a good lead-in to my primary comments about this thread.

See, the OP asked, can Playgrounders build a Wizard who would die to this? And the answer is "yes" - in fact, I did so. But it's a dumb question.

A lot of people have been saying that they can easily build Wizards who would survive this challenge. OK, but that's a dumb answer.

The real question, IMO - and, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong - is this: could a Wizard who had survived to level 18 legitimately die in the scenario described?

IME, none of the Wizards (or Sorcerers, or similar) who had survived to such a level would have any difficulty surviving such a challenge. As others have pointed out, most Wizards of much lower level should likely survive, and even well-played Fighters should have the gear to survive this challenge.

Correction - none of the Wizards I've ever encountered would have any problem with this challenge, except those that hailed from one particularly... I can't even understand what their malfunction was to give it a label, so one particularly "foo" group. These particular idiots were so oblivious, that they couldn't even conceptualize the concept of anyone being able to think of solutions that were instantly obvious to me. Needless to say, the echo chamber of weapons-grade stupidity was too much for be, and I never was a player in their group.

So, the question is, is there any legitimate reason why a character who was prepared enough to survive to level 18 as a Wizard could possibly die to an earthquake without holding an epic idiot ball of foolishness +42? Don't imagine the best and brightest Wizards, imagine Einstein (who had to put a huge spot of paint on his door to find his way home), imagine the most foolish mistakes you've ever seen otherwise bright people make, and ask yourself if anyone could possibly a) survive to 18th level, and b) die to an earthquake.

And, c) with a "research load-out" of spells (which, to me, sounds more survivable, not less).

Otherwise, as I and others have said, dieing of old age seems much easier to buy.

So, again OP, why do you seem to so want this seemingly unreasonable death scenario?

Also, OP, do you really want to telegraph that your world is filled with weapons-grade stupidity, or that your plot requires idiot balls? Personally, I find that, if your plot requires the idiot ball, it's best to change your plot.


Thank you, this was what I was wanting to hear.


That's kinda the problem. You had an answer in mind when you asked the question-that's bad form.

Edit: I've been guilty of the same myself, so it's not just you. But still-something to be avoided.

Second/Third/whatever this sentiment.


I think the point is to have a subset of rules, where a wizard would possible die to a cave-in. I think, at this point I'd start thinking about leaving the game. If NPCs can't have nice things, then PCs are next on the list.

Clearly, the GM is trying to make his custom epic "cave-in survival spell" seem cool, so he has to nerf everything else that is stealing it's coolness away.

Bonus points if that's what said NPC was researching when he died. /Blue?

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: This thread appears to have no further value - the OP has gotten what they needed, and the tone of the thread is going downhill rapidly. I'm locking it before it reaches the point of needing to take more serious action.