Cleric gone evil? help

[Amdy_vill]

so in my last game our cleric was being mugged by a homeless old man. i made it very clear to hime that this man was not a threat to him. Our cleric of the life domain then proceeded to threaten to murder him and then murdered him. after this he looted the body of a knife and dug a grave. the homeless man had and accomplices who the cleric let run away. when the guards showed up he calmed it was self defiance and resisted arrest. after being knocked out a friend bribed the guards to let him out. now he is wanted by the local government and some homeless/thieves. what should this Cleric of a Lawful good gods punishment be.

Edit

Notes:

Cleric is a level 5

he is not from krynn the setting we are in, and is not well known as a cleric.

I probable should have said this in the first post. we are playing on krynn and he is not from krynn. currently he has been on krynn for about a day and the first time he told anyone he was a cleric was when he was talking with the mugger. Clerics and other holy classes have only really been back on krynn for the last few years. sorry for leaving this out this is my fault.

For clarification of events

From start to finish everything he has done. while our sorcerer was taking there robe test on krynn do to the power of the individuals in the test the manifestation are really(Edit: the party has a half dragon, an animal lord, a godspawn, a monk with a powerful soul and the others two i have not finished there special powers stuff yet and i ma . still working on the clerics special stuff/ origins). the cleric is introduced this way. he leaves the test with the party and travels back to barter with the party. during this time he is informed that barter is a lawful city by the party and my self. when they reach barter they are put up in. A hotel by lelo the current leader of the lost words and a famous adventurer. most of the party would only known her as an adventurer. the two rouge known she runs a thieves guild. they join and are given a job. then next morning lelo show up and hires the rest of the party to be security for a merchant. the rouge know that they are supposed to rob this merchant on there trip to swift water. they leave the hotel with lelo and find out that during the night the merchants wagon was destroyed and his steeds let lose. he tell the party it will be three days before they can get going. the party leave the hotel and wonder around town.

The cleric goes to the slums and tent city set up in the back of barter. here he tries to interact with the homeless and children who all are avoiding him. he decided to set up camp in the tent city. i cut away to other players.

This is when he get mugged. he sees an old am approaching him. he is decried as a thin and gaunt man covered in scraps and rags. the man suggested that the cleric not set up camp here. the cleric asks why. the man introduces him self as silver quick and tell him that thieves are everywhere. the cleric rebuts with his gods will protect him. at this point the cleric turns and setting up his tent. the man ups his knife and ask"would you kindly turn over your coin". the player looks at me and says really he is a thieve. I say to you he looks like an old homeless man. you are surprised he can hold the knife with out shacking. the cleric then tell the man to go away or he will die. the old man then does some "fancy foot work" and stables the cleric.fancy foot work i sue this to describe who he was hopping around moving a lot and trying to distract him. the cleric then said i am going to kill you and swung at him with his mace. he hit the unarmored man and dealt 9 damage killing the man. the mans HP was set to 3 so 9 brutally killed him.I told him who his mace came down on the head of the man shattering it into peaces. at this point the cleric hears silver quick. as he turns he see a person holding his coin bag. the person drops it and runs away. the cleric does not fallow. instead he sits there and robs the man taking his knife and food. he then buries the mans body. at this point i cut away from him and did other thing with the other party members.

When i come back to him I tell him you have just finished burring the body and you hear what sounds like several guards heading your way. the players says great i can clear this all up. the guards tell him he is under arrest. he tell them he will do no such thing. the guard tell him to surround and put his weapons down. he damands to speak with the caption of the guard at this point the guards attack. I did not roll initives as the cleric made i clear he was not going to fight but was not going to Copo with the guards. they attack and then ask him to stand down. he refuse and says do you known who i am. the guards attack and ask again for him to stand down. the cleric says fain and places his weapons on the ground. the guards are trying to handcuff him when he begins casting spell. he his then attacked again by the guards out of fear he is trying to fight back now.

He wakes up in a cell being processed with the rest of his party trying to bail him out. he is being healed by another cleric. he then start yelling at the guards about how he is innocent and how it was a mugging. the guards tell him that if he hadn't resisted arrest they would not have thrown him in the cell and he would have gotten to tell them his side of the story. lelo then shows up and bribes the guards to let him go. he then goes on a rate about how they should have fought there way out of there and kill all those corrupted guards. note: the only reason the guards took that bribes was because it was lelo giving them it.

my point of "punishing" him is not that he did the wrong thing. if one of our rouges or our paladin did this it would have been fine. same Legal problems but he is a Lawful good cleric of the life domain. what god of the life domain would allow one of there clerics to get off scot free for kill a man who at the time was only known to be a homeless old man. this is my line of reasoning. "yes i kill the kid. why he was bing mean and after i killed him i learned he was going to be the next hitler." a life domains clerics job is protecting life and helping people. he was clearly trying to do that and then when he was bing mugged he turned 180 and just kills a homeless man.

[Millstone85]

Take away his powers.

He is, however, immediately contacted by an evil god.

[Pex]

Take away his powers.

He is, however, immediately contacted by an evil god.

If you as DM are ok with this development in terms of running the game, continue.

If you are not ok the character also becomes an NPC, the player makes a new character, and tell him to cut this garbage out or he's out.

[Theodoric]

Sent a messenger of sorts (a priest, an angel, perhaps a dream-vision) to ask him to repent and do penance. Give the the player a clear, conscious choice between denouncing his evil actions, or embracing them. Makes more sense for Good-aligned deities to turn this into a teachable moment (IMHO), gives the player enough knowledge to know what to do* and makes it feel more fair, and makes for more interesting role-playing opportunities than just stripping his of his powers or smiting.

*Players sometimes resort to bizarre murderous behaviour because they panic and don't know what else to do. It's not deliberate psychopathy, it's what happens when a player is suddenly asked to make a choice, their character sheet is full of weapons and they can't figure out what their GM expects of them. Maybe that's what happened here. In any case, communication is key now.

[Sigreid]

I'd give him a few nights of terrible nightmares and forget about it (other than the actual legal consequences).

[Man_Over_Game]

so in my last game our cleric was being mugged by a homeless old man. i made it very clear to hime that this man was not a threat to him. Our cleric of the life domain then proceeded to threaten to murder him and then murdered him. after this he looted the body of a knife and dug a grave. the homeless man had and accomplices who the cleric let run away. when the guards showed up he calmed it was self defiance and resisted arrest. after being knocked out a friend bribed the guards to let him out. now he is wanted by the local government and some homeless/thieves. what should this Cleric of a Lawful good gods punishment be.

It's a lawful good god. Put him on trial. Next time he sleeps, he receives a vision by a Deva of his God (his God would be furious and not want anything to do with the Cleric and wouldn't show up personally), and the Deva provides facts and requests what the justification was for the Cleric's actions. The Deva is the judge and jury.

If the Deva is not satisfied, the Cleric does not gain the benefit of a Long Rest and starts the day with Exhaustion. The next time he sleeps, he goes through the Trial again.

Keep in mind, Exhaustion 6 means you die. You could have the Cleric lose his powers instead of dying this way and have to choose a different class/path/character, but a Lawful Good God would make sure there's a fair trial and a chance for redemption.

[Amdy_vill]

It's a lawful good god. Put him on trial. Next time he sleeps, he receives a vision by a Deva of his God (his God would be furious and not want anything to do with the Cleric and wouldn't show up personally), and the Deva provides facts and requests what the justification was for the Cleric's actions. The Deva is the judge and jury.

If the Deva is not satisfied, the Cleric does not gain the benefit of a Long Rest and starts the day with Exhaustion. The next time he sleeps, he goes through the Trial again.

Keep in mind, Exhaustion 6 means you die. You could have the Cleric lose his powers instead of dying this way and have to choose a different class/path/character, but a Lawful Good God would make sure there's a fair trial and a chance for redemption.

I like this.

[Malifice]

How active are your Gods?

From memory in Ars Magica (a system that has a 'one true god' thing going on) the Pope of Fantasy Europe had (literally) sold his soul for the Papacy (and retained his divine powers).

In Faerun in 3.5, Midnight/ Mystra was happy granting spells to clerics of the old Mystra despite their alignments differing. Including to a LE Necromancer, despite Midnight being NG.

Like, in 5E there is nothing expressly stating your Gods strip clerics of spells for alignment violations. There is nothing stopping a LE Cleric of LG Torm (the cleric likely sees himself as a righteous man, doing 'what needs to be done' or 'getting his hands dirty' out of reverence for his God).

When he dies, he would be judged false, and walled into the Wall of the Faithless of course.

I'd simply change his alignment to CE (or maybe NE) in accordance with his actions (and to correct a clear mistake the player made when creating the character) and get on with the game.

Unless you dont want PCs acting in such a manner in your game, and would rather run a heroic game, in which case you need to have a serious chat with the player.

[GooeyChewie]

You’ll probably want to get the player’s story of what happened before dishing out punishment. They may have a different interpretation of the events.

If they cannot provide a satisfactory explanation, then I would agree with something similar to the first response. Suddenly the cleric’s prayers are being answered by an evil god. I would go so far as describing the clerics spells in evil terms. Sacred Flame? Suddenly those flames went from a brilliant golden shine to dark black and purple fire that seems to soak up light. It would have no mechanical change, but the spells would clearly come from an evil source.

My goal doing so would be to punish the character, but not the player. If the player embraces the darkness and adventures as an evil cleric, they haven’t lost anything mechanically. But if they want to see the cleric as Lawful Good, then give the player’s character an avenue for redemption. The best way to view the situation is as a potential hook for a character-development story, not as a reason to punish a player.

[Throne12]

It's a lawful good god. Put him on trial. Next time he sleeps, he receives a vision by a Deva of his God (his God would be furious and not want anything to do with the Cleric and wouldn't show up personally), and the Deva provides facts and requests what the justification was for the Cleric's actions. The Deva is the judge and jury.

If the Deva is not satisfied, the Cleric does not gain the benefit of a Long Rest and starts the day with Exhaustion. The next time he sleeps, he goes through the Trial again.

Keep in mind, Exhaustion 6 means you die. You could have the Cleric lose his powers instead of dying this way and have to choose a different class/path/character, but a Lawful Good God would make sure there's a fair trial and a chance for redemption.

I like this idea but I will add instead of Exhaustion each level they lose features.
Lv1. They lose the ability to switch out spells.
Lv2. They lose there channel divinity.
Lv3. They gain 2 lvs of exhaustion that they can't get rid of.
Lv4. They lose all class abilities other then spell casting.
Lv5. They can't regain expend spell slots
Lv6. They lose the use of cantrips and if they do not do anything to fix this they no longer have a deity.

[Malifice]

You’ll probably want to get the player’s story of what happened before dishing out punishment. They may have a different interpretation of the events.

If they cannot provide a satisfactory explanation, then I would agree with something similar to the first response. Suddenly the cleric’s prayers are being answered by an evil god. I would go so far as describing the clerics spells in evil terms. Sacred Flame? Suddenly those flames went from a brilliant golden shine to dark black and purple fire that seems to soak up light. It would have no mechanical change, but the spells would clearly come from an evil source.

My goal doing so would be to punish the character, but not the player. If the player embraces the darkness and adventures as an evil cleric, they haven’t lost anything mechanically. But if they want to see the cleric as Lawful Good, then give the player’s character an avenue for redemption. The best way to view the situation is as a potential hook for a character-development story, not as a reason to punish a player.

Gods in my Faerun are much more distant. If a worshipper follows the Gods dogma even roughly, or works in the name of the church they're fine (regardless of alignment).

A LE Inquisitor of Torm, who (while honorable) is also a monster, engaging in torture, pogroms and genocide and just generally getting **** done in Torms name, is a perfectly fine archetype.

Once they die, they get judged to a different standard by Kelemvor however and turned into wallpaper.

[Wildarm]

so in my last game our cleric was being mugged by a homeless old man. i made it very clear to hime that this man was not a threat to him. Our cleric of the life domain then proceeded to threaten to murder him and then murdered him. after this he looted the body of a knife and dug a grave. the homeless man had and accomplices who the cleric let run away. when the guards showed up he calmed it was self defiance and resisted arrest. after being knocked out a friend bribed the guards to let him out. now he is wanted by the local government and some homeless/thieves. what should this Cleric of a Lawful good gods punishment be.

Assuming you made it clear as a DM that this would be very much against the ethos of his faith I'd come down pretty hard on this. Assuming you don't want a murderhobo/evil game. Initially, I'd have his prayers not be answered(no spell slot restoration on LR) until he atones for his actions. He'd have to seek guidance from his faith on how to do this(which essentially means confessing to a high priest).

Atonement could be be facing the justice due to him for the murder, lying to authorities and escaping prison or perhaps atonement by making restitution to the dead man's family(confession, returning his belongings and service/payment of some kind).

For extra fun I'd have his deity curse the knife he stole. It becomes permanently blood stained and he is unable to put it down even when sleeping.

If he fails to atone within a certain amount of time he will become an evil NPC.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you as DM are ok with this development in terms of running the game, continue.

If you are not ok the character also becomes an NPC, the player makes a new character, and tell him to cut this garbage out or he's out. Pretty sound advice.
Send a messenger of sorts (a priest, an angel, perhaps a dream-vision) to ask him to repent and do penance.
Give the the player a clear, conscious choice between denouncing his evil actions, or embracing them.
Makes more sense for Good-aligned deities to turn this into a teachable moment (IMHO), gives the player enough knowledge to know what to do,* makes it feel more fair, and makes for more interesting role-playing opportunities than just stripping his of his powers or smiting.

*Players sometimes resort to bizarre murderous behaviour because they panic and don't know what else to do. It's not deliberate psychopathy, it's what happens when a player is suddenly asked to make a choice, their character sheet is full of weapons and they can't figure out what their GM expects of them. Maybe that's what happened here. In any case, communication is key now. Now that's a really good answer. *tips cap*

[OverLordOcelot]

I'm kind of confused by the scenario - usually a mugging is something like 'this guy threatens you with a knife and demands money', which is, well, a threat. Could the cleric have just walked away, or demanded they surrender, and was that clear? The accomplices didn't help the guy at the time, but did let the cleric just leave, and now are after the cleric? The guards arrested a cleric who swears it was self-defense for what he says is fighting back after someone threatened him with a knife? The cleric then got a friend to bust him out of jail instead of fighting back legally? It really sounds to me like he might have felt like you were setting him up with something like 'ha, this wimpy guy threatens you, but you're a LG cleric, so you have to do what he says and can't fight back'. I don't know if that's the case, but you might want to think about whether it could be taken that way.

I'm inclined to think that the cleric's player either doesn't have anything like your picture of what happened, or he just killed the guy and went on rebelled because he felt like you stuck him in a no-win situation.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm inclined to think that the cleric's player either doesn't have anything like your picture of what happened, or he just killed the guy and went on rebelled because he felt like you stuck him in a no-win situation.

I'm getting the sense of "I play murderhobos (sometimes affiliated with hobo murdering) but the party needed a healer so I'm playing a Life Cleric with a melee focus" kinda vibe.

Could totally be off base, but that's my guess.

You don't pick Life Cleric and murder someone after getting warned about it if the Life or Cleric part of your class actually matters. So...it probably doesn't.

[Helldin87]

Sounds like a good opportunity for a quick DM-player convo. Ask the player if he/she has a direction they want to develop the character. Maybe they decided to play a life cleric under the misconception that parties "need a healer" Maybe they had a different understanding of events. Consider it part of the coaching that good DMs can give to their players to help them realize their part in the story. Personally that's why I allow rerolls up to lvl 5 without any penalties. It lets players really be sure they love their PC and their role. If they don't then they should play something else! Its a game and meant to be fun for all.

On the flip side if this person is a murder-hobo then its time to set some standards of conduct. If they don't respect the table then tell them politely to game somewhere else.

Have fun!

[Zuras]

Yeah, normally the guards aren’t going to imprison known divine servants on the word of homeless vagrants.

In general, as a DM, if you don’t want your players to murder-hobo, don’t have NPCs threaten them with violence. Whether or not it’s what they “should” do, many players will respond to attempts at bullying by NPCs with extreme violence, since not needing to back down is part of the fun of playing a make believe character.

[denthor]

More information please.

What level is the cleric?

What spells did he have memorized?

Chalk this up to moment.

Try it again put the player in a situation where hold person would work. They could take the hit and run. If he resorts to murder you do not have a lawful good you have an evil.

[Sigreid]

Try it again put the player in a situation where hold person would work. They could take the hit and run. If he resorts to murder you do not have a lawful good you have an evil.

Taking a hit and running is leaving this presumably armed and violent individual to prey on those who can't defend themselves.

[1Pirate]

There's not quite enough information here. What was the original narrative purpose of being mugged by the homeless guy?(as written here it has a little bit of a "Gotcha!" DM smell to it and his in-game aggressive responses may have been resentment from that). Mugging is somewhat of a violent act, so responding in kind, no matter how little of a threat the mugger poses, doesn't seem to warrant that much more than a "tsk tsk". What did the man do after the cleric threatened to murder him? If he continued antagonizing the cleric, then this seems even less of punishable offense. Also, he dug the man a grave and didn't chase down and kill his accomplice, so I would consider those two actions points for the lawful side.


Also, was he rude to the guards or does he have some sort of stigma attached(race, nationality, prior history with the law, etc.) that would make them question his word? Because I sort of agree that it's weird for guards to take the word of a street ruffian over that of the cleric. Of course since they were open to bribes this isn't the most honest of governments, so maybe they just lock everybody up and sort it out later. If the government is sketchy however, ignoring its laws isn't necessarily a point in favor of chaotic.

I think a talk with the player may be in order, you need to clarify if maybe he's making a deliberate choice to turn evil, or if he didn't understand that the tenets of his faith didn't allow for this sort of thing(in which case maybe a deity of slightly different values or an alignment change may be called for if he wants to play this way).

Setting all that aside and assuming this is a legit violation. Start with a some supernatural representative of the deity warning him not to do so again. If he ignores it, have him find his holy symbol is suddenly tarnished, cracked, or otherwise broken and no longer works as a focus anymore. Give him a dream(or dreams) where he's in the mugger's point of view and feeling himself being killed by his own spells, weapons, or whatever he used.

[NecessaryWeevil]

so in my last game our cleric was being mugged by a homeless old man. i made it very clear to hime that this man was not a threat to him. Our cleric of the life domain then proceeded to threaten to murder him and then murdered him. after this he looted the body of a knife and dug a grave. the homeless man had and accomplices who the cleric let run away. when the guards showed up he calmed it was self defiance and resisted arrest. after being knocked out a friend bribed the guards to let him out. now he is wanted by the local government and some homeless/thieves. what should this Cleric of a Lawful good gods punishment be.

So which part of the cleric's actions do you envision his god having a problem with? Is it his reaction to the mugging? His reaction to the threat of lethal force (what else is a mugging?) may not have been an instance of shining good but I'm not sure it was outright evil either. Or is it resisting arrest, which is probably not lawful depending on whether or not he expected a fair trial?

What do you envision as an appropriate response of a cleric of a lawful good god?

[OverLordOcelot]

I'm getting the sense of "I play murderhobos (sometimes affiliated with hobo murdering) but the party needed a healer so I'm playing a Life Cleric with a melee focus" kinda vibe.

I think there is an actual literal actual murder hobo (or at least 'murder-threatening hobo') running around preying on the innocent who threatened someone who was able to put a stop to his evil. Like I said, I'm not sure that's the case here, but it fits better than 'the player is the murder hobo, even though a hobo literally threatened to murder him'.


You don't pick Life Cleric and murder someone after getting warned about it if the Life or Cleric part of your class actually matters. So...it probably doesn't.

All of that is extremely setting-dependent, and isn't the way the default setting, Faerun, actually works. In general, if I'm playing a lawful good character and someone tells me that I'm not allowed to enforce the laws of the land or protect the innocent, its likely that the morality compass in their game is way to skewed for me to want to play a combat focused game in it. "Literal murderhobo comes at you, but defending yourself is murder and the guards arrest you while your god abandons you" doesn't work for me.

[sithlordnergal]

so in my last game our cleric was being mugged by a homeless old man. i made it very clear to hime that this man was not a threat to him. Our cleric of the life domain then proceeded to threaten to murder him and then murdered him. after this he looted the body of a knife and dug a grave. the homeless man had and accomplices who the cleric let run away. when the guards showed up he calmed it was self defiance and resisted arrest. after being knocked out a friend bribed the guards to let him out. now he is wanted by the local government and some homeless/thieves. what should this Cleric of a Lawful good gods punishment be.

Sooo...what evil act was done here? The cleric was attacked by someone, even if that someone was not a threat. Not all that different then a group of bandits attacking a well equipped party. Did the cleric torture the homeless man? Did the party chase the mugger off, then follow the mugger home to kill him in his sleep? Killing a mugger in D&D seems like a rational response.

At worst, I'd have the cleric be sent a message from their church to urge them not to resist arrest next time. Outside of that...I'm not seeing the evil act.

Edit: Heck, I have a Paladin who would respond in a similar manner to a threat. If you tried to mug/attack him, he'd likely defend himself first and ask questions later. That's not to say I am a murder-hobo, I have several characters who wouldn't respond that way, and currently have a character who went through all of T1 only doing non-lethal damage. Killing a mugger seems acceptable to me.

[Amdy_vill]

More information please.

What level is the cleric?

What spells did he have memorized?

Chalk this up to moment.

Try it again put the player in a situation where hold person would work. They could take the hit and run. If he resorts to murder you do not have a lawful good you have an evil.

Cleric is a level 5

he is not from krynn the setting we are in, and is not well known as a cleric.

most of his spell were combat oriented but i do not known all the spell he had. spirital weapon and stuff

[Amdy_vill]

There's not quite enough information here. What was the original narrative purpose of being mugged by the homeless guy?(as written here it has a little bit of a "Gotcha!" DM smell to it and his in-game aggressive responses may have been resentment from that). Mugging is somewhat of a violent act, so responding in kind, no matter how little of a threat the mugger poses, doesn't seem to warrant that much more than a "tsk tsk". What did the man do after the cleric threatened to murder him? If he continued antagonizing the cleric, then this seems even less of punishable offense. Also, he dug the man a grave and didn't chase down and kill his accomplice, so I would consider those two actions points for the lawful side.

the point of the encounter was to show the party that the city is filled with thieves. My expiation was the cleric was going to try and talk him down and help the old man. my exceptions was the good party members would try and help the city recover.


Also, was he rude to the guards or does he have some sort of stigma attached(race, nationality, prior history with the law, etc.) that would make them question his word? Because I sort of agree that it's weird for guards to take the word of a street ruffian over that of the cleric. Of course since they were open to bribes this isn't the most honest of governments, so maybe they just lock everybody up and sort it out later. If the government is sketchy however, ignoring its laws isn't necessarily a point in favor of chaotic.

I probable should have said this in the first post. we are playing on krynn and he is not from krynn. currently he has been on krynn for about a day and the first time he told anyone he was a cleric was when he was talking with the mugger. Clerics and other holy classes have only really been back on krynn for the last few years. sorry for leaving this out this is my fault.

[OverLordOcelot]

the point of the encounter was to show the party that the city is filled with thieves. My expiation was the cleric was going to try and talk him down and help the old man. my exceptions was the good party members would try and help the city recover.

In general, PCs are the kind of people that cheerily jump into lost tombs to fight horrible evil creatures, get almost-killed or killed, then rest up and do it again. Expecting them to respond to a threat of murder peacefully is usually going to lead to disappointment; most of my characters would give him one warning to back off, and then then treat him as an attacker.

[Amdy_vill]

In general, PCs are the kind of people that cheerily jump into lost tombs to fight horrible evil creatures, get almost-killed or killed, then rest up and do it again. Expecting them to respond to a threat of murder peacefully is usually going to lead to disappointment; most of my characters would give him one warning to back off, and then then treat him as an attacker.

i should have known this.

[Keravath]

Well .. unless you have left something out, it doesn't seem to me that the cleric necessarily did anything wrong.

He is walking along a street and accosted by a person who is perhaps unkempt. You didn't mention a weapon but presumably they had something or they would not be threatening in the first place. This person appears to have several accomplices in the shadows nearby. The initial impression of the cleric is that the attacker is probably not that much of a threat to him but anyone armed with a weapon who can lift it is a threat. In addition, although the attacker may not be much of a threat to the cleric and his party they are likely an immense threat to the average citizen whom one would think they usually prey upon.

He is in a city that is running to the lawless side "the point of the encounter was to show the party that the city is filled with thieves. My expiation was the cleric was going to try and talk him down and help the old man. my exceptions was the good party members would try and help the city recover."

Clearly, if the city is filled with thieves and the party is attacked by one - the city guard is not doing their job. In addition, if they are new in town (or to this world as you indicated) then they probably do not know how laws are organized here ... that thieves are allowed to attack locals and you are not permitted to defend yourself from a possibly deadly encounter (keep in mind the cleric does not know whether the attacker could hit them critically or whether their accomplices in the shadows are about to swarm out at the least sign of weakness) ... instead you are expected to kindly ask them to put down their weapon and they will respond by doing so since you are so nice. (Sorry - that has to be one of the most unlikely scenarios I can imagine).

Instead the cleric, threatens the attacker, stating that if they do not leave them alone then they will respond in force. From the sound of it the cleric then had to kill the attacker when they would not stop (I would assume that "theaten to murder" from your initial post is actually the cleric warning the attacker to back off? Stating to anyone that you will defend yourself with lethal force if needed is NOT "threatening to murder".)

The rest of the folks in the shadows then run to the city guard and complain that "the stranger killed our friend when we tried to rob him" ... presumably they left out the part about robbing ... however, these folks would likely be known to the city guard as thieves (you did mention you were trying to show the party that the city was full of thieves?). For some totally unobvious reason the city guard then comes to arrest the cleric ... I can only assume that the city guard is corrupt and is being paid by the thieves as enforcers since otherwise this whole process makes no sense.

Do you see the issues? Based on the information you have provided, the cleric is only guilty of defending themselves from a relatively weak thief and their gang hiding in the shadows, the cleric warned the thief that they would respond with lethal force if they did not leave them alone. The thief is likely to go off and accost some other citizen if they are not stopped. Based on this, the cleric responds with lethal force when then thief doesn't stop and prevents the thief from attacking any other citizens. The cleric did NOTHING wrong and now you want to punish them because INSTEAD of helping the attacker as YOU the DM had envisaged the encounter turning out ... they justifiably responded with lethal force defending themselves and the city from a threat (even if the thief might not have personally been much of a threat ... however, anyone armed with a weapon and attacking you IS a threat). The bottom line for your "punishment" appears to be not that the cleric actually did something wrong but rather that the cleric did something that YOU (the DM) did not want or think they should do given how you WANTED the encounter to turn out and not for any logically consistent world building reason.

Anyway, this is why I think we would need more information to figure out what exactly is going on ... however, based on the available information ... the cleric did nothing wrong, they acted in self defence, they removed a thief from the streets of the city and scattered their accomplices ... and then the thieves call the guard to arrest the cleric who killed the thief (rather than the thieves) which they then do indicating that the guards are either corrupt or the DM has an illogical vendetta because the encounter didn't play out they way they wanted it to ...

[Mad_Saulot]

You're playing 5e right, personal alignments were done away with, just because someones a cleric doesnt mean they have to be perfect all the time right?

If you are still uising the alignment system one lapse does not a heretic make..

What does a divine being care about one mugger that was probably evil anyway?

Remember, Lawful Good doesnt mean Lawfull nice

If some commoner got in the way of a warrior bishop he'd be cut in half, ahh the good old days..

But its your game and I'm assuming you are running a happy clappy all heroes are nice game.

DEUS VULT

[Bundin]

Cleric was played as a typical PC, and acted decently enough if you ask me. Being Good doesn't mean turning the other cheek. Maybe he ridded the town of an evil mugger. One that may not be a threat to the cleric, but probably would be a threat to the average commoner in town.

And let's be fair: killing evil is a big part of any adventurer's life, even for life clerics (who, if not tossing a cantrip/spell or waving around something nasty themselves) are definitely enabling their mates to kill as efficiently as possible. And I assume that killing evil is very much accepted in your setting.

If you wanted the party to just know that the streets aren't safe, then maybe the mugger should have been logical (be intimidated and run away from the dude in shiny armor and weapon, maybe come back later with half the thieves' guild). Or a player gets jumped on by a city guard, who, after an easy social check, realises that he isn't catching a thief but a tourist, and then explains the thievery problems.

So yeah, I wouldn't blame the player at all. Killing one mugger doesn't mean the player is murder hoboing.

[KorvinStarmast]

a Lawful Good God would make sure there's a fair trial and a chance for redemption. Neat idea, but see below for an alternate assessment.
Lv1 -Lvl6 . They lose the use of cantrips and if they do not do anything to fix this they no longer have a deity. Also a neat idea, but see below for an alternate thought.
In general, PCs are the kind of people that cheerily jump into lost tombs to fight horrible evil creatures, get almost-killed or killed, then rest up and do it again. Expecting them to respond to a threat of murder peacefully is usually going to lead to disappointment; most of my characters would give him one warning to back off, and then then treat him as an attacker. Yes. Genre norms and all that.

You're playing 5e right, personal alignments were done away with No
If you are still using the alignment system one lapse does not a heretic make.. Yes. This very much yes. Your point on "lawful good" does not equate necessarily to "lawful nice" seems apt as well.

For the OP:

Your player may not understand the rules on knocking out another creature. I'd discuss that with him, since that would have been a very appropriate use of this game feature.

Knocking a Creature Out (http://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/DnD_BasicRules_2018.pdf#page=79)
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable. If the cleric knocks the creature out and his accomplices run off, doesn't that solve the immediate problem?

The dig a grave and bury, then plead self defense, comes off as trying to hide something ...

[Amdy_vill]

Well .. unless you have left something out, it doesn't seem to me that the cleric necessarily did anything wrong.

He is walking along a street and accosted by a person who is perhaps unkempt. You didn't mention a weapon but presumably they had something or they would not be threatening in the first place. This person appears to have several accomplices in the shadows nearby. The initial impression of the cleric is that the attacker is probably not that much of a threat to him but anyone armed with a weapon who can lift it is a threat. In addition, although the attacker may not be much of a threat to the cleric and his party they are likely an immense threat to the average citizen whom one would think they usually prey upon.

He is in a city that is running to the lawless side "the point of the encounter was to show the party that the city is filled with thieves. My expiation was the cleric was going to try and talk him down and help the old man. my exceptions was the good party members would try and help the city recover."

Clearly, if the city is filled with thieves and the party is attacked by one - the city guard is not doing their job. In addition, if they are new in town (or to this world as you indicated) then they probably do not know how laws are organized here ... that thieves are allowed to attack locals and you are not permitted to defend yourself from a possibly deadly encounter (keep in mind the cleric does not know whether the attacker could hit them critically or whether their accomplices in the shadows are about to swarm out at the least sign of weakness) ... instead you are expected to kindly ask them to put down their weapon and they will respond by doing so since you are so nice. (Sorry - that has to be one of the most unlikely scenarios I can imagine).

Instead the cleric, threatens the attacker, stating that if they do not leave them alone then they will respond in force. From the sound of it the cleric then had to kill the attacker when they would not stop (I would assume that "theaten to murder" from your initial post is actually the cleric warning the attacker to back off? Stating to anyone that you will defend yourself with lethal force if needed is NOT "threatening to murder".)

The rest of the folks in the shadows then run to the city guard and complain that "the stranger killed our friend when we tried to rob him" ... presumably they left out the part about robbing ... however, these folks would likely be known to the city guard as thieves (you did mention you were trying to show the party that the city was full of thieves?). For some totally unobvious reason the city guard then comes to arrest the cleric ... I can only assume that the city guard is corrupt and is being paid by the thieves as enforcers since otherwise this whole process makes no sense.

Do you see the issues? Based on the information you have provided, the cleric is only guilty of defending themselves from a relatively weak thief and their gang hiding in the shadows, the cleric warned the thief that they would respond with lethal force if they did not leave them alone. The thief is likely to go off and accost some other citizen if they are not stopped. Based on this, the cleric responds with lethal force when then thief doesn't stop and prevents the thief from attacking any other citizens. The cleric did NOTHING wrong and now you want to punish them because INSTEAD of helping the attacker as YOU the DM had envisaged the encounter turning out ... they justifiably responded with lethal force defending themselves and the city from a threat (even if the thief might not have personally been much of a threat ... however, anyone armed with a weapon and attacking you IS a threat). The bottom line for your "punishment" appears to be not that the cleric actually did something wrong but rather that the cleric did something that YOU (the DM) did not want or think they should do given how you WANTED the encounter to turn out and not for any logically consistent world building reason.

Anyway, this is why I think we would need more information to figure out what exactly is going on ... however, based on the available information ... the cleric did nothing wrong, they acted in self defence, they removed a thief from the streets of the city and scattered their accomplices ... and then the thieves call the guard to arrest the cleric who killed the thief (rather than the thieves) which they then do indicating that the guards are either corrupt or the DM has an illogical vendetta because the encounter didn't play out they way they wanted it to ...

From start to finish everything he has done. while our sorcerer was taking there robe test on krynn do to the power of the individuals in the test the manifestation are really(Edit: the party has a half dragon, an animal lord, a godspawn, a monk with a powerful soul and the others two i have not finished there special powers stuff yet and i ma . still working on the clerics special stuff/ origins). the cleric is introduced this way. he leaves the test with the party and travels back to barter with the party. during this time he is informed that barter is a lawful city by the party and my self. when they reach barter they are put up in. A hotel by lelo the current leader of the lost words and a famous adventurer. most of the party would only known her as an adventurer. the two rouge known she runs a thieves guild. they join and are given a job. then next morning lelo show up and hires the rest of the party to be security for a merchant. the rouge know that they are supposed to rob this merchant on there trip to swift water. they leave the hotel with lelo and find out that during the night the merchants wagon was destroyed and his steeds let lose. he tell the party it will be three days before they can get going. the party leave the hotel and wonder around town.

The cleric goes to the slums and tent city set up in the back of barter. here he tries to interact with the homeless and children who all are avoiding him. he decided to set up camp in the tent city. i cut away to other players.

This is when he get mugged. he sees an old am approaching him. he is decried as a thin and gaunt man covered in scraps and rags. the man suggested that the cleric not set up camp here. the cleric asks why. the man introduces him self as silver quick and tell him that thieves are everywhere. the cleric rebuts with his gods will protect him. at this point the cleric turns and setting up his tent. the man ups his knife and ask"would you kindly turn over your coin". the player looks at me and says really he is a thieve. I say to you he looks like an old homeless man. you are surprised he can hold the knife with out shacking. the cleric then tell the man to go away or he will die. the old man then does some "fancy foot work" and stables the cleric.fancy foot work i sue this to describe who he was hopping around moving a lot and trying to distract him. the cleric then said i am going to kill you and swung at him with his mace. he hit the unarmored man and dealt 9 damage killing the man. the mans HP was set to 3 so 9 brutally killed him.I told him who his mace came down on the head of the man shattering it into peaces. at this point the cleric hears silver quick. as he turns he see a person holding his coin bag. the person drops it and runs away. the cleric does not fallow. instead he sits there and robs the man taking his knife and food. he then buries the mans body. at this point i cut away from him and did other thing with the other party members.

When i come back to him I tell him you have just finished burring the body and you hear what sounds like several guards heading your way. the players says great i can clear this all up. the guards tell him he is under arrest. he tell them he will do no such thing. the guard tell him to surround and put his weapons down. he damands to speak with the caption of the guard at this point the guards attack. I did not roll initives as the cleric made i clear he was not going to fight but was not going to Copo with the guards. they attack and then ask him to stand down. he refuse and says do you known who i am. the guards attack and ask again for him to stand down. the cleric says fain and places his weapons on the ground. the guards are trying to handcuff him when he begins casting spell. he his then attacked again by the guards out of fear he is trying to fight back now.

He wakes up in a cell being processed with the rest of his party trying to bail him out. he is being healed by another cleric. he then start yelling at the guards about how he is innocent and how it was a mugging. the guards tell him that if he hadn't resisted arrest they would not have thrown him in the cell and he would have gotten to tell them his side of the story. lelo then shows up and bribes the guards to let him go. he then goes on a rate about how they should have fought there way out of there and kill all those corrupted guards. note: the only reason the guards took that bribes was because it was lelo giving them it.

my point of "punishing" him is not that he did the wrong thing. if one of our rouges or our paladin did this it would have been fine. same Legal problems but he is a Lawful good cleric of the life domain. what god of the life domain would allow one of there clerics to get off scot free for kill a man who at the time was only known to be a homeless old man. this is my line of reasoning. "yes i kill the kid. why he was bing mean and after i killed him i learned he was going to be the next hitler." a life domains clerics job is protecting life and helping people. he was clearly trying to do that and then when he was bing mugged he turned 180 and just kills a homeless man.

[Sigreid]

A homeless old man that stabbed him. I think the cleric showed restraint. Most of my characters would have cleaned out the guards.

[JoeJ]

I also don't see what the cleric did wrong here, unless it was burying the body instead of immediately reporting it to the authorities? The mugger stabbed him with a knife and he responded appropriately. As Malcolm Reynolds put it, "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!"

[OverLordOcelot]

the cleric then tell the man to go away or he will die. the old man then does some "fancy foot work" and stables the cleric.

Unless I'm specifically playing a complete pacifist, any character I'd play in D&D would respond to a robber who responded to a warning by trying to kill the character by killing the robber. The nicer ones might attempt to help the criminal reform, but (again, other than unusual 'complete pacifist' characters)


what god of the life domain would allow one of there clerics to get off scot free for kill a man who at the time was only known to be a homeless old man. this is my line of reasoning.

Every one of the ones that I've seen in published material, and all of the historical deities that I'd think of as 'life domain' would be fine with killing someone who attempts to murder you in self defense. This guy attempted to rob the character, got a clear warning, then proceeded to try to murder the character, this isn't an innocent person. If playing a lawful good cleric of a god with the life domain in your world means that my character in a fantasy game can't defend himself in a situation that would be clear-cut self defense in the modern world, I would avoid playing a life cleric and/or lawful good character in that campaign, as it's clearly a self-destructive class or alignment.

[Mad_Saulot]

Holy Grammar Batman, my eye balls!

[Corpsecandle717]

This is when he get mugged. he sees an old am approaching him. he is decried as a thin and gaunt man covered in scraps and rags. the man suggested that the cleric not set up camp here. the cleric asks why. the man introduces him self as silver quick and tell him that thieves are everywhere. the cleric rebuts with his gods will protect him. at this point the cleric turns and setting up his tent. the man ups his knife and ask"would you kindly turn over your coin". the player looks at me and says really he is a thieve. I say to you he looks like an old homeless man. you are surprised he can hold the knife with out shacking. the cleric then tell the man to go away or he will die. the old man then does some "fancy foot work" and stables the cleric.fancy foot work i sue this to describe who he was hopping around moving a lot and trying to distract him. the cleric then said i am going to kill you and swung at him with his mace. he hit the unarmored man and dealt 9 damage killing the man. the mans HP was set to 3 so 9 brutally killed him.I told him who his mace came down on the head of the man shattering it into peaces. at this point the cleric hears silver quick. as he turns he see a person holding his coin bag. the person drops it and runs away. the cleric does not fallow. instead he sits there and robs the man taking his knife and food. he then buries the mans body. at this point i cut away from him and did other thing with the other party members.



First there's a couple of things I want to point out here what my reactions as a player would have been given your description of this scenario:

I'm a cleric with my shiny Medium Armor, and I'm approached by a random homeless guy who is attempting to mug me. Given that I am the MOST HEAVILY ARMORED person in the slums, and therefore the least accessible target, this seems less like a random mugging and more of a targeted attack. However there's a chance that this guy is nuts or drunk though.

My attacker, who appears to be a homeless guy, claims to have a nickname. Most basic muggers, even in fantasy settings, don't want to be identified so names don't come up often. So him being bonkers is still on the table, bu there was no mentioned of slurred words or anything so he's not drunk. He may just be bluffing and trying to use a name I'm supposed to know. Or he's actually someone I need to worry about and is someone I need to watch out for. +1 crazy for targeted attack.

Homeless guy is described as being in tattered clothes and appears to be underfed, but then proceeds to do some "Fancy Footwork". As a 5th level cleric, presumably with a martial background, I am certain that this guy is a rogue in disguise. No one who is starving could produce anything my character would think of as "Fancy Footwork". Good fighters are generally able to feed themselves and get basic clothing. another +1 for insane or targeted attack.

My final conclusion: My cleric is in legit danger from a rogue of some levels and I will definitely be defending myself to the fullest of my abilities.

It feels like you tried to set up a moral decision for a player, then failed to present it in a way that your player could have gathered all the relevant facts to determine that this homeless guy was exactly what he appeared to be.

-------------------------------

I also think you're getting hung up on the "Lawful" bit of their alignment. Lawful characters don't always follow local laws blindly.

Classic Example: Lawful Good Paladin follows a god who's ethos considers it a sin to 'own' another sentient being. Said Paladin crosses into a country where slavery is common. What does the Paladin do?

Start smashing the face of the first slave owner they see?
Quietly donate funds to a revolutionary army fighting for freedom?
Join revolutionary army fighting for freedom?
Treat any slave with dignity, and avoid dealing with known slave owners?
Attempt to change things from within by joining local government?


Any of these reactions still fall within the bounds of a lawful alignment. (Granted the first would probably require some pretty aggressive tenets from the Paladin's faith).

As others have said, I don't understand why this cleric needs divine punishment. The only thing that may have been questionable about this cleric's behavior is the resistance to local authority, and even that would be up for debate.

[1Pirate]

Unless his god is an enormous jerk, I don't think there'd be any divine repercussions are warranted here. First off, if the player, who in RL stats is probably 14 Wisdom--tops--figured out this was a thief and not an ordinary homeless man, the cleric(unless he dumped Wisdom) is definitely going to think this guy is a thief(at the very least, he should have been given a DC 10 Wisdom or Insight check to see what this guy was about). And to be clear, even if you didn't stat block him as a thief, the man was a thief by all other definitions of the word, so if you told him he wasn't thief that would pretty much be a lie on your part.

The man stabbed him first and life clerics aren't really known for their DPS, so I doubt he thought one hit from his mace would insta-kill the man. These days, looting the body of a fallen enemy is default behavior from PCs, so unless this was explicitly spelled out, you shouldn't fault him for that.

Your child analogy doesn't work, this isn't the equivalent of killing a kid for being mean, this is the equivalent of killing a kid for trying to stab you in the neck after you warned him repeatedly not to do it. Also you(perhaps inadvertently) dropped a ton of hints that it was Gnome pretending to be a child, and then turned around and insisted it was a child after he killed him.

He didn't get violent with the guards, he just asked to see their superior officer, which, regardless of tone, is in line with being lawful good(I actually think there should have been a persuasion check there, at the very least the guards would tell him the captain wasn't available and if he surrendered his weapons, focus, spell components, and came quietly, they wouldn't cuff him and he'd have a chance to tell his story).

I think this was ok to show the corruption and crime within the city. However, I don't think the cleric deserves any sort of punishment from his god and doing so would pretty much be railroading him. If you want him to avoid this behavior in the future, you could have some divine messenger visit him and say, "no prob, but next time just knock him out and leave his belongings. Otherwise keep up the good work."

[Mellack]

Adding my voice to the others, the Cleric did nothing wrong. They would have been well within their rights to kill the mugger as soon as they pulled out the knife. I think they were restrained in just warning at that point. As soon as they were attacked, I would expect any PC to kill the attacker. That is what adventurers do for a living. It was self defense. Being good doesn't mean being foolish or even particularly nice. When attacked Good people may definitely kill someone. Then they were attacked by city guards who are paid off by the leader of the thieves guild. I see nothing that the cleric did that would not fit into both Lawful and Good. They are fighting against criminals, attempted murderers, and corrupt officials. I think they would be well within their alignment and religious tenets to attack the government.

[NecessaryWeevil]

when he was bing mugged he turned 180 and just kills a homeless man.

The homeless man who just stabbed him with a lethal weapon? That homeless man? I ask because you seem to talk about them like they're two separate people.

[Malifice]

So yeah, I wouldn't blame the player at all. Killing one mugger doesn't mean the player is murder hoboing.

Awesome.

I'm gonna head down the street and kill that homeless ex con that sleeps under the bridge there now.

Its the 'Lawful Good' thing to do.

[Mellack]

Awesome.

I'm gonna head down the street and kill that homeless ex con that sleeps under the bridge there now.

Its the 'Lawful Good' thing to do.

If that guy just stabbed you with a knife it is.

[Malifice]

From start to finish everything he has done. while our sorcerer was taking there robe test on krynn do to the power of the individuals in the test the manifestation are really(Edit: the party has a half dragon, an animal lord, a godspawn, a monk with a powerful soul and the others two i have not finished there special powers stuff yet and i ma . still working on the clerics special stuff/ origins). the cleric is introduced this way. he leaves the test with the party and travels back to barter with the party. during this time he is informed that barter is a lawful city by the party and my self. when they reach barter they are put up in. A hotel by lelo the current leader of the lost words and a famous adventurer. most of the party would only known her as an adventurer. the two rouge known she runs a thieves guild. they join and are given a job. then next morning lelo show up and hires the rest of the party to be security for a merchant. the rouge know that they are supposed to rob this merchant on there trip to swift water. they leave the hotel with lelo and find out that during the night the merchants wagon was destroyed and his steeds let lose. he tell the party it will be three days before they can get going. the party leave the hotel and wonder around town.

The cleric goes to the slums and tent city set up in the back of barter. here he tries to interact with the homeless and children who all are avoiding him. he decided to set up camp in the tent city. i cut away to other players.

This is when he get mugged. he sees an old am approaching him. he is decried as a thin and gaunt man covered in scraps and rags. the man suggested that the cleric not set up camp here. the cleric asks why. the man introduces him self as silver quick and tell him that thieves are everywhere. the cleric rebuts with his gods will protect him. at this point the cleric turns and setting up his tent. the man ups his knife and ask"would you kindly turn over your coin". the player looks at me and says really he is a thieve. I say to you he looks like an old homeless man. you are surprised he can hold the knife with out shacking. the cleric then tell the man to go away or he will die. the old man then does some "fancy foot work" and stables the cleric.fancy foot work i sue this to describe who he was hopping around moving a lot and trying to distract him. the cleric then said i am going to kill you and swung at him with his mace. he hit the unarmored man and dealt 9 damage killing the man. the mans HP was set to 3 so 9 brutally killed him.I told him who his mace came down on the head of the man shattering it into peaces. at this point the cleric hears silver quick. as he turns he see a person holding his coin bag. the person drops it and runs away. the cleric does not fallow. instead he sits there and robs the man taking his knife and food. he then buries the mans body. at this point i cut away from him and did other thing with the other party members.

When i come back to him I tell him you have just finished burring the body and you hear what sounds like several guards heading your way. the players says great i can clear this all up. the guards tell him he is under arrest. he tell them he will do no such thing. the guard tell him to surround and put his weapons down. he damands to speak with the caption of the guard at this point the guards attack. I did not roll initives as the cleric made i clear he was not going to fight but was not going to Copo with the guards. they attack and then ask him to stand down. he refuse and says do you known who i am. the guards attack and ask again for him to stand down. the cleric says fain and places his weapons on the ground. the guards are trying to handcuff him when he begins casting spell. he his then attacked again by the guards out of fear he is trying to fight back now.

He wakes up in a cell being processed with the rest of his party trying to bail him out. he is being healed by another cleric. he then start yelling at the guards about how he is innocent and how it was a mugging. the guards tell him that if he hadn't resisted arrest they would not have thrown him in the cell and he would have gotten to tell them his side of the story. lelo then shows up and bribes the guards to let him go. he then goes on a rate about how they should have fought there way out of there and kill all those corrupted guards. note: the only reason the guards took that bribes was because it was lelo giving them it.

my point of "punishing" him is not that he did the wrong thing. if one of our rouges or our paladin did this it would have been fine. same Legal problems but he is a Lawful good cleric of the life domain. what god of the life domain would allow one of there clerics to get off scot free for kill a man who at the time was only known to be a homeless old man. this is my line of reasoning. "yes i kill the kid. why he was bing mean and after i killed him i learned he was going to be the next hitler." a life domains clerics job is protecting life and helping people. he was clearly trying to do that and then when he was bing mugged he turned 180 and just kills a homeless man.

Hang on, wait what?

Some dude, pulled a knife on the PC, and (after being warned off by the PC - who was clearly armed and trying to defuse the situation) this dude then stabbed the PC anyway? So the PC clonked him with a mace (which killed the armed attacker who was actively trying to murder and rob the PC despite a clear warning to go away?).

Mate that isnt murder. It's lawful self defense, against a person trying to murder you (and whom had just stabbed you)! In no way is that evil. Nor is it even a crime!

He used proportionate force in self defense (after giving a warning no less), against someone that was actively trying to rob and murder him!

I mean, if some crazed elderly hobo down the road pulled a knife on you in real life, and stabbed you, you are not 'evil' for whacking him with a baseball bat to protect yourself are you? Nor are you even for shooting him dead with a handgun. Nor have you committed a crime.

And then... weirdly, the guards show up, and start attacking him (repeatedly) - presumably also with lethal weapons - when all he is doing is nothing but talking (protesting his innocence and demanding to be taken to the captain of the guards)?

You dont even bother rolling initiative, and just keep repeatedly attacking his PC with these guards? When the Player of the Cleric is (essentially) trying to resolve the matter peacefully and via RP?

And now you're asking if he's 'evil?'

Dude, no he isnt. You messed up. On many levels.

[KorvinStarmast]

You dont even bother rolling initiative, and just keep repeatedly attacking his PC with these guards? When the Player of the Cleric is (essentially) trying to resolve the matter peacefully and via RP?

And now you're asking if he's 'evil?'

Dude, no he isnt. You messed up. On many levels.
We have the case of yet another Gotcha DM. Gotcha DM's are worse than murder hobos because they drive off entire tables full of players.
Gotcha DM's get a lot of fuel from stupidity on the Internet, from an alignment system that is a gamification of something far more complex and nuanced, and from bad philosophy spouted on the same internet.

So of course they show up. The question is, how does one cure this disease?

[Sigreid]

I'm kind of curious how many times a life cleric has to be stabbed before the OP thinks it's ok to fight back.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm kind of curious how many times a life cleric has to be stabbed before the OP thinks it's ok to fight back. Once in each hand, once in each foot, once in the ribs. Then ... maybe. :smalltongue:

[Eriol]

I'm kind of curious how many times a life cleric has to be stabbed before the OP thinks it's ok to fight back.
Even Redemption Paladins are allowed to fight back. Maybe they'd have to talk a lot too, but even then.


I'd say it gets LEGALLY weird (and morally a bit) of trying to hide the body afterwards. That's something else. But the original fight was no crime IMO. It's like Martha Stewart: she didn't do a crime originally, but she lied to investigators later, and THAT was a crime. Similar thing.

[Sigreid]

Even Redemption Paladins are allowed to fight back. Maybe they'd have to talk a lot too, but even then.


I'd say it gets LEGALLY weird (and morally a bit) of trying to hide the body afterwards. That's something else. But the original fight was no crime IMO. It's like Martha Stewart: she didn't do a crime originally, but she lied to investigators later, and THAT was a crime. Similar thing.

On the plus side, I don't think Maliface and I have ever been on the same side of an alignment issue before. :smallbiggrin:

[Malifice]

Even Redemption Paladins are allowed to fight back. Maybe they'd have to talk a lot too, but even then.


I'd say it gets LEGALLY weird (and morally a bit) of trying to hide the body afterwards.

He buried the homeless man thinking no-one would care for him.

Why town guards in Krynn care about the death of a homeless man, who is wandering about town trying to murder people, is totally beyond me.

Why those same guards care enougn to themselves repeatedly stab a second man, who was doing nothing wrong beyond defending himself from being murdered and trying to talk to those guards about it afterwards, is equally beyond me.

In the OP it was described as if the Cleric was verbally accosted by a frail homeless man, who the Cleric then proceeded to murder for no apparent reason other than to rob him.

In reality the Cleric was doing everything he could to avoid a confrontation from a guy that approached HIM and threatened to rob him, gave him a warning even after the dude drew a knife on him, was even then stabbed, and simply fought back in self defence.

None of that is evil. None of that is remotely evil. Regrettable (from the good persons perspective), but not evil.

[guachi]

The "problem" is that the player didn't do what the DM wanted him to do.

This, of course, isn't a real problem.

The wider problem I see, and it's one all DMs can do, is improperly telegraphing the threat/situation.

[Keravath]

The "problem" is that the player didn't do what the DM wanted him to do.

This, of course, isn't a real problem.

The wider problem I see, and it's one all DMs can do, is improperly telegraphing the threat/situation.

I think this is the problem exactly. The cleric did not do what the DM thought they should so he wants to punish the cleric.

From the words of the OP:

"the man introduces him self as silver quick and tell him that thieves are everywhere. the cleric rebuts with his gods will protect him. at this point the cleric turns and setting up his tent. the man ups his knife and ask"would you kindly turn over your coin". the player looks at me and says really he is a thieve. I say to you he looks like an old homeless man. you are surprised he can hold the knife with out shacking. the cleric then tell the man to go away or he will die. the old man then does some "fancy foot work" and stables the cleric"

1) The attacker LOOKS like a homeless old man. This does NOT mean that they actually ARE a homeless old man especially in a D&D setting.
2) The attacker "ups his knife", ask"would you kindly turn over your coin", and then after being TOLD that he is in danger and to go away the attacker then uses "fancy foot work" and stables the cleric". Clearly, the attacker is capable of rolling an attack roll high enough to damage the cleric through their armor - the attacker seems to know what they are doing to damage even an armed and armored defender AND is confident enough of their abilities to continue attacking ... they may LOOK like a homeless old man but they are NOT ACTING like a homeless old man and the player MUST respond to the situation as the DM presents it and NOT as the DM imagines it in their mind to be.

So the cleric is attacked by an older poorly dressed person wielding a weapon who demands their coin and when the cleric refuses they are stabbed. WHAT ELSE IS THE CLERIC GOING TO DO EXCEPT DEFEND THEMSELVES. OP ... please think about it.

Then the OP says the following:

"but he is a Lawful good cleric of the life domain. what god of the life domain would allow one of there clerics to get off scot free for kill a man who at the time was only known to be a homeless old man"

Absolutely EVERY god of the life domain WOULD allow their cleric to defend themselves. You would need to create a very particular character with an ideal that they refuse to kill in order to have this kind of character ... just being a life cleric does NOT require anything in terms of not killing. Consider that every diety knows that death is a part of life. That sometimes some things have to die for others to survive. Does the cleric starve because they have to kill plants and animals in order to eat? Your entire pre-conceived notion of how a life domain diety and cleric should be played is YOUR idea ... it has nothing to do with what is stated in any of the books OR how the player perceives how a life domain cleric should be played. Punishing a cleric for behaving in a way counter to YOUR pre-conceived ideas of how a life domain cleric should behave without actually discussing this with the player and letting them change their domain if they don't like your ideas is wrong (especially since the cleric isn't even from this world ... ethos can vary alot across the multiverse).

----

The rest of the story is equally bad. Guards show up to arrest the cleric for self defence. The cleric won't put down their weapons since he has good reason NOT to trust the guards since they are acting irrationally. He asks to speak to a superior officer and they refuse. He doesn't fight back and the guards attack him anyway. This is ridiculous. The DM decided the character would be arrested even though it made no sense at all. Even in a lawful town you should be able to act in self defence.

----

In addition, the DM and player also clearly don't know that ANY melee attack that reduces a target to zero hit points can be declared non-lethal and just knock them out. Period. Doing 9 damage could have just as easily been used to knock out the attacker ... rather than the DMs interpretation "he hit the unarmored man and dealt 9 damage killing the man. the mans HP was set to 3 so 9 brutally killed him" ... sorry, it could have just as easily been used to knock out the attacker.

----

Finally, the OP's complete misunderstanding is encapsulated in his closing sentence:
"a life domains clerics job is protecting life and helping people. he was clearly trying to do that and then when he was bing mugged he turned 180 and just kills a homeless man."

- A life domain cleric may like to protect people BUT this does not include the thief who has just demanded all his money and stabbed him
- He was being mugged ... he did NOT "he turned 180 and just kills a homeless man." He defended himself from a known thief who was willing to attack and possibly kill others in order to obtain money. The DM needs to understand that the attacker was NOT JUST a "homeless man" ... he might have been older, poorly dressed but he was very CLEARLY an armed thief who knew how to use his weapon since he stabbed the cleric.

Just consider how MANY people the cleric might have saved from the attacks of this "homeless man" as they went on to attack and rob others. What about the single mom with 2 kids and a few coppers that he stabs later and takes her coin? What about the other weak people he terrorizes into giving up money they need to eat? The attacker may NOT have been a big threat to the cleric but he WAS an enormous threat to others living in the slums.

The bottom line for me is ..
- the cleric is NOT evil
- a life cleric is completely able to justify killing when needed
- the cleric's actions were completely and 100% justified acting in self-defence
- the town is NOT LAWFUL .. it is corrupt since it will arrest people who defend themselves from attackers (no self defense allowed) and then take a bribe to release prisoners. The guards can clearly recognize that the cleric is wealthier than the average citizen, is a stranger and can easily be framed for a crime and then collect some coin to release him. The entire idea that the guards were acting LAWFULLY is INCORRECT. That isn't how laws work ... it is how corruption works.
- the DM seems to have a bunch of pre-conceived ideas of how specific characters should be played that they have not shared with their players ... ideas which are generally far beyond what is described in the game materials.