Misconception about artificers

[clery]

I am currently researching artificers from dnd 3.x and from what I can read, many people are overlooking one very important thing about them. Correct me if I am wrong but artificers are not casters.

I cannot take a metamagic or item creation feat at 1st, 3rd, or 6th level etc. as I would normally gain a feat because I am not a caster.

The bonus feat at 4th, 8th etc. must be selected from the list given and therefore cannot be a item creation feat that requires a CL, though nothing stops you from selecting a metamagic feat that you do not meet the prerequisites for.

Again, correct me if I am wrong.

[Falontani]

They are counted as spellcasters of a caster level equal to their class level, however they have no spells on their spell list.

[JNAProductions]

Also, just gonna point out, Monks aren't proficient in unarmed strikes.

This is a situation, like that, where the rules might read that way by RAW, but it'd be silly to stick to the RAW.

[Troacctid]

Infusions fulfill the prerequisite just fine with their caster level. Item creation feats don't require that your caster level come from spells specifically.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A character's caster level and their level in a spellcasting class are not synonymous though they often coincide. The item creation feats have caster level prerequisites. Per the guidelines in Complete Arcane, these requirements can be met by a character with no spellcaster levels as long as they have a sufficient caster level from a spell-like ability or some other source; either from race, some class feature, a feat, or whatever other means you might acquire one.

An artificer's infusions class feature gives the artificer a caster level equal to his class level. This is sufficient to select item creation feats in most cases (some have prerequisites other than caster level).

Most metamagic feats have no prerequisites at all or require one or more metamagic feats to have already been taken. A human fighter can select them with his character level feats (but not his class' bonus feats) though he has no use for them.

[clery]

Aren't Unarmed strikes considered natural weapons? PHB pg 41 under "unarmed strike".

That is the thing I am trying to find. I can't seem to find how artificers class level equates to any sort of spell casting ability or caster level at all.

The thing from complete arcane (pg 72) specifically says that caster level from spell like abilities or invocations can be used to meet prereqs. infusions aren't spells (though treated like spells in many aspects), spell like abilities, or invocations.

All other references to caster level that I have found only apply to item creation, such as artificer level + 2 when determining minimum caster level for meeting prereqs for item creation and not meeting prereqs for feats.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Aren't Unarmed strikes considered natural weapons? PHB pg 41 under "unarmed strike".

That is the thing I am trying to find. I can't seem to find how artificers class level equates to any sort of spell casting ability or caster level at all.

The thing from complete arcane (pg 72) specifically says that caster level from spell like abilities or invocations can be used to meet prereqs. infusions aren't spells (though treated like spells in many aspects), spell like abilities, or invocations.

All other references to caster level that I have found only apply to item creation, such as artificer level + 2 when determining minimum caster level for meeting prereqs for item creation and not meeting prereqs for feats.

Under the section of the Artificer that talks about its Infusions:



They function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells.

EDIT: I would assume that also means they have a caster level.

[Troacctid]

If they don't have a caster level, figuring out how big a bonus you get from magic vestment is gonna be pretty hard.

[Dusk Raven]

Also, just gonna point out, Monks aren't proficient in unarmed strikes.

This is a situation, like that, where the rules might read that way by RAW, but it'd be silly to stick to the RAW.

I've heard that stated before, but I haven't found any justification for it. Either, as clery said, they are natural weapons and Monks (and everyone else) are proficient in them, or... you know I don't think I've ever seen something that was stated to not be proficient in unarmed strikes, I don't think it's possible.

Honestly, I think some "RAW" issues aren't issues at all and are only read as such by people who are trying to interpret the wording in a dysfunctional or absurd way. Others are so subtle that most wouldn't even notice if not pointed out to them.

...Sorry for that tangent, that particular example is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

As for the Artificer, it would seem they count as spellcasters where it matters, despite not actually casting spells per se.

[JNAProductions]

I believe that it's written (though cannot find at the moment) that you are proficient in Unarmed Strikes if you are proficient in simple weapons. Monks are not-they have a select list.

The point is that RAW is sometimes borked-replace with drown healing if you like.

[Dusk Raven]

I believe that it's written (though cannot find at the moment) that you are proficient in Unarmed Strikes if you are proficient in simple weapons. Monks are not-they have a select list.

The point is that RAW is sometimes borked-replace with drown healing if you like.

If true, that would make sense - other than the natural weapons bit, of course.

...Drown healing? Never mind, I'll look that up later.

[Falontani]

Unarmed strike tangent: creatures proficient with their natural weaponry include many types, however humanoids are surprisingly not on the list of those proficient with natural weapons. Creatures proficient with simple weapons are proficient with unarmed strikes, but again humanoids do not possess this proficiency. Monks grant neither proficiency, therefore humanoid monks are not proficient with the unarmed strike.
That said, as others have pointed out, it is not meant to be this way, and to have this be a thing you must read into it in the worst possible way.

[clery]

I guess I can vouch for the "They function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells." A justification for being able to take other item creation feats, metamagic, etc.

I am playing an artificer in my group and about 2/3rds my group is not liking him because he is too weak and not active enough, and the other third is worries about him becoming over powered. During the discussions, this idea came about, that the most broken things about artificers is when they start taking other item creation feats outside their list.

Thanks for the input guys.

[RoboEmperor]

Artificers by RAW are non-divine non-arcane Spellcasters with 0 spells known. They qualify for anything that this qualifies for.

[RoboEmperor]

During the discussions, this idea came about, that the most broken things about artificers is when they start taking other item creation feats outside their list.

This is incorrect. The broken thing from artificer comes from Early Access to high level out of combat shenanigans, not whatever your friends are thinking.

Give this thread a read:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578484-Making-the-Artificer-playable

it's posted yesterday.

Divine Crusader's get Domain spells at a significantly lower caster level. 9th level domain spells are caster level 9. 8th level domain spells are caster level 8. So 6th level artificer can create a scroll of an 8th level domain spell and a 7th level artificer can create a scroll of a 8th level spell.

As the thread points out one powerful use of this is Simulacrum at 6th level. By boosting the caster level and using Summon Component to ignore the creature's material component for the scroll you can create some really powerful Simulacra at 6th level.

For example, you can create a Simulacrum of a Ravid
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm

And have it perpetually animate a Gargantuan Animated Object. There's virtually nothing a CR6 encounter can do to challenge this CR7 creature.

The thread also points out Planar Binding as a 4th level spell. Meaning Spell Storing Item can replicate it at 8th level (for free if using Concurrent Infusions). So imagine having a CR13 monster at level 8. There's not a chance in hell any number of CR8 encounters can come even remotely close to your power.

At 7th level Artificers can scribe Scrolls of Wish. He can scribe Scrolls of Permanency to bank xp, destroy them all into his craft reserve, and create scrolls of Wish with 20,000xp+ to create magic items with. Think of it as trading a level for a really expensive magic item. When that magic item is at-will 9th level spells like Hunters of Hades or Elemental Monolith that artificer might as well be a 17th level caster.

A trick I discovered (and mentioned in that thread I linked) is that Mithral Golems (EPIC CREATURES) cost only 15,000xp to create with Wish. So imagine your party is 9th level and this 7th level artificer gets an epic creature as his minion. So he traded out 2 levels for a CR21 creature at party level 9.

This is why Artificers are broken as ****, not whatever your friends were thinking. Early Access to high level spells.