Oath of Vengeance / Hexblade Split

[Mutsden]

Hi all,

I was wondering if you'd take a peek at an idea for a paladin/warlock that excels at fighting one or two big opponents. No restrictions on number of source books. The thought behind the build is that hexblade allows you to use charisma rather than strength for attacks, which is needed for elven accuracy to function. Vow of enmity provides a good source of advantage against a single target and hexblade's curse brings the chance of critting to around 30% per attack which benefits smiting and GWF. PAM/GWM/Sentinel and haste for more opportunities to attack.

Race:
Half-elf

Stats (Point Buy):
Str - 16 (15 base, +1 racial)
Dex - 10 (10 base)
Con - 12 (11 base, +1 racial)
Int - 10 (10 base)
Wis - 10 (10 base)
Cha - (20 (15 base, +2 racial, +2 ASI, +1 elven accuracy)

Classes:
Paladin - Oath of vengeance (17)
Great Weapon Fighting style
Armed with halberd (pact weapon)

Warlock - Hexblade (3)
Pact of the blade
Agonizing blast, eldritch sight(?) invocations
Spells:

Booming blade (I am aware BB can't be used at 10', but it seemed like a waste not to take it)
Eldritch blast
Comprehend languages
Shield
Mirror image
Spider climb

I considered taking hex but it seemed redundant considering hunter's mark is on the oath of vengeance's spell list. Please correct me on this if I'm wrong.

Feats/ASIs:
PAM
GWM
Sentinel (maybe replace with war caster or an ASI?)
Elven accuracy

Some questions I have include:

Would you change up the level splits?
When would you start taking warlock levels? Pally 6? Ideally I'd like to minimize the opportunity cost of multiclassing.
The same question as above but for each feat and ASI
At which level would you consider this build "online"?
Do you have any suggestions regarding race, stats, feats, subclasses, etc. that you think would make this better at its intended role?


Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have.

[Quoz]

There's an extensive guide on this subclass, I think it's called 'Good is not Nice'.

Short version - Vengeance paladin draws the vast majority of its power from the fear enhancing aura at level 7. Hexblade dip will cut your need to for Str, but that's not a big difference at early levels until you raise your Cha. I would probably go 7 levels of Paladin, taking your +2 Cha at 4. Go 1 level of Hexblade at 8, then Elven Accuracy at 9. By then you should have a feel for what you need most as far as other feats and when/If to take more hexblade levels. The PAM portion of the build comes on quite late as you need both hexblade 3 and PAM. Perhaps consider sword and board with shield master - frightened enemies you knock prone can't stand up, and so must cower and grovel before your might.

[Man_Over_Game]

There's an extensive guide on this subclass, I think it's called 'Good is not Nice'.

Short version - Vengeance paladin draws the vast majority of its power from the fear enhancing aura at level 7. Hexblade dip will cut your need to for Str, but that's not a big difference at early levels until you raise your Cha. I would probably go 7 levels of Paladin, taking your +2 Cha at 4. Go 1 level of Hexblade at 8, then Elven Accuracy at 9. By then you should have a feel for what you need most as far as other feats and when/If to take more hexblade levels. The PAM portion of the build comes on quite late as you need both hexblade 3 and PAM. Perhaps consider sword and board with shield master - frightened enemies you knock prone can't stand up, and so must cower and grovel before your might.

You're confusing the Vengeance Paladin with the Conquest Paladin.

Vengeance Paladin is all weapon attacks and selfish features (only targeting himself), where the Conquest focuses on aura effects and fear.

Vengeance is better in smaller parties and makes a great solo combatant, Conquest is much better in larger parties and does well as a face (relies on Charisma a lot) but may need healing support (might not have the stats for heavier armor).

[Rukelnikov]

Feats/ASIs:
PAM
GWM
Sentinel (maybe replace with war caster or an ASI?)
Elven accuracy



You are marking 4 feats, and an ASI in you stats distribution (+2 CHA), with your current split you can't do that, so sentinel has to go or you would have to do 16/4

Consider that with lock 5 you can get Eldritch Smite for a greater nova, and you would still keep the VP's reaction attack. From you current build you would lose 1 lvl 4 slot, 1 lvl 5 slot (and access to pally 5 slots), but would upgrade lock slots to 3. Since you are gonna go crit fishing with your build, the extra nova damage sounds better than the 5th lvl spells IMO, mainly since you already have your concentration spell which is gonna be Haste most of the time.

You could also change one of your invocations to Relentless Hex, which could maybe save some misty steps

[Man_Over_Game]

Make sure to have more than just a "max level" style of build. Likely, you're never going to reach that stage of the game. Figure out what your character's gonna be every 5 levels or so. Pick a goal and stick to it.

I'd recommend something like this:


Paladin 1
Paladin 2
Paladin 3
Hexblade 1
with a focus on low Charisma.


Paladin 1
Hexblade 1
X
X
with a focus on high Charisma.

After your first level into Hexblade, I'd continue into Paladin until you get Extra Attack. From there, you can decide if you want to go Warlock (for higher damage critical hits and spellcasting), or Paladin (for better tanking/mobility/team support).

[Benny89]

As I was at simillar situation I will share my thoughts on it after a lot of days of thinking about best approach. I am Variant Humant V-Pally, not half elf, but I am also PAM/GWM build.

So after all calculations I have made I came to conclusion that best is to invest only 1 level in Hexblade as V-Pally. No more for most gain as Vengeance Paladin (other oaths might differ). If you want to use CHA as your attack stat + PAM + Half-elf- you are already not optimized as you need more than 1 lvl hexblade to use CHA for 2h weapons. You are better as STR (2h) or Sword n Board (CHA). I will go into details below:

Reasons for 1 level dip only:

1. You get all best stuff at 1st level- Curse, Eldritch Blast, Shield spells, 2 other spells to chose from + 1 slot on short rest that will be best used for Bless or Hunter's Mark because then you have a good dmg buff resource between fights when you want to save your Smites.
2. You don't lose ASI as 1 level only makes you lose capstone- nothing major.
3. You don't lose high level slots from Paladin as 20 and 19 level of Paladin has the same amount of slots.
4. You don't delay all good V-pally stuff by much. 1 level won't impact you that much when it comes to getting Haste, Greater Steed, level 15 feature, ASI + Spell progression, Cleansing Touch etc.
5. Best is to take 1 levels Hexblade after either level 1 Paladin if you are CHA Paladin or at level 7 if you are STR Paladin so you don't need that CHA as attack modifier in melee and you can grab Aura as fast as possible.

Reasons why I think more than 1 level in warlock is bad for Paladins, especially for Vengeance Paladin:

1. You lose a lot of high level slots for Smites. Yes, you can use more smites in theory per day due to short rests but in ONE fight you have much less slots to burn vs boss ans so much less Nova damage. As Vengeance Pally your main job is to destroy in 2-3 turns a boss. Having more slots to burn in one fight instead of having more slots during whole day from short rests is much better to support that job. You need a lot of slots for high CR bosses in many cases. The general rule is when it comes to Paladin/Warlock multiclass- the more warlock levels- the less Smites in single fight and much lower Nova but more smites between fights. So you trade single-target higher burst for per day more stable DPR vs other enemies. Imo It's not worth for Vengeance Paladin as his whole kit supports one big NOVA furry on boss.
2. Anything between 1 or 4 levels dip makes you lose 1 ASI. Vengeance PAM Paladin is very very ASI hungry that is why it's always recommended to chose Variant Human for PAM Vengeance. Because what you absolutely need as PAM V-Pally is: PAM, GWM and RES (CON). With V-uman that is level 8 for everything and 20 STR by 16. With half elf + elven accuracy that is (if you took accuracy first) 16th level for PAM, GWM, RES (CON) and Accuracy only!!! Even if you take PAM first- you get crucial stuff level 12 and accuracy level 16. So for you losing even one ASI due to multiclass to warlock is super bad.
3. Hexblade is best with offensive Paladin if you dip only one level. If you have to more - either 4 levels or nothing more. More will make you lose slots and Paladin stuff and less- ASI point. So taking 3 levels at Hexblade is WORST you can do in your case as you get worst of both worlds.

Especially for you since you took half-elf instead of Variant human and still went for PAM- 4 level dip warlock hexblade is you best bet to not lose ASI but still be able to use CHA on PAM if you want that. Very bad optimized choice. You will have lower NOVA in boss fight and you delay a lot of Paladin stuff plus ASI.

So what I recommend is either:

1. Stick to STR not CHA as PAM half-elf and dip only 1 level in Hexblade and you will be in much better situation progress-wise. 4 levels hexblade is imo not worth at all to use CHA for 2-handed weapons. STR is better option optimization wise here.

or

2. Go sword and board as Half Elf with Duelist and CHA as main stat. Especially if you want to get elven accuracy- your PAM build will be complete very very late compare to Variant Human. For Half Elf S&B you would have: Elven Accuracy, RES (CON) and +2 CHA all at level 12 so you would have: EA, RES(CON), 20 CHA at 16 same as Variant Human has: PAM,GWM,RES(CON) and 20 STR at 16. Sword and Board is your best bet as Vengeance Half-Elf with Warlock dip as you need only 1 level to be able to use CHA. This way you get best and fastest ASI and Paladin progress with all benefits of Hexblade.

General optimization rule when it comes to Vengeance Paladin:

Half Elf- sword & board, CHA build with Hexblade 1 lvl dip.
Variant Human- PAM, STR build with Hexblade 1 lvl dip.
Hexblade- 1 level dip for best stuff + not losing any slots on Paladin or max 4 levels to not lose ASI if you really need to use that CHA as attack and to not lose many slots to burn on smite in boss fight.


Generally if you want do do Paladin-caster multiclass- Sorcerer is the best and strongest choice. Hexblade more than 1 level dip is imo not worth at all for Paladins, but especially for Vengeance Paladin. Sorcerer is king of multiclass for Paladin.

[ATHATH]

Perhaps consider sword and board with shield master - frightened enemies you knock prone can't stand up, and so must cower and grovel before your might.
Doesn't Shield Master compete with Wrathful Smite for your bonus action, though?

[LordNibbler]

Are you playing this from first level? If so, you’ll want to start with Paladin for the proficiencies but get to Hexblade 3 quickly because the ability to use a two-handed weapon with your Hexblade benefits doesn’t happen until then. As such, I would only take one or two levels of Paladin at the beginning. After you get to Hexblade 3, switch back to Paladin until you get your Aura of Protection at Paladin 6. Thus the best character levels are level 5 when you have smites and full use of your two-handed weapon and level 9 at which point you will also have Extra Attack and your aura.

[Benny89]

Are you playing this from first level? If so, you’ll want to start with Paladin for the proficiencies but get to Hexblade 3 quickly because the ability to use a two-handed weapon with your Hexblade benefits doesn’t happen until then. As such, I would only take one or two levels of Paladin at the beginning. After you get to Hexblade 3, switch back to Paladin until you get your Aura of Protection at Paladin 6. Thus the best character levels are level 5 when you have smites and full use of your two-handed weapon and level 9 at which point you will also have Extra Attack and your aura.

By going 17/3 he loses ASI and he is already half-elf so he is one ASI back in PAM build vs Vuman.

If he wants to fully utilize Vengeance PAM build and his racial choice he needs: PAM, GWM, RES (CON) and Elven Accuracy.

That is 4, 8, 12, 16 level and then he has no ASI for even one +2 CHA because he went 3 levels into hexblade. No matter in what order- PAM build is not good for Half-Elfs if we talk about being optimized.

But If he go 16/4 he will at least be able to grab that +2 CHA somewhere. Unles he won't take GWM but that is waste of PAM build on V-Pally.

His best bet is to go Sword n Board, duelist style, 1 level dip Hexblade for CHA usage and then he has full ASI to get:

level 5- Elven Accuracy, 9- RES (CON), 13- +2 CHA. This way he as at level 9 build ready for haste + VoE + Curse + Elven Accuracy crit fishing. Impossible to achieve that in any decent time with PAM build on Half-Elf.

There is no point going for only 3 levels of Hexblade because you can go as well 4 to get final ASI. Though I still think that more than 1 level dip in Hexblade is a waste for both PAM and S&B Vengeance Paladin.

However:


If he truly needs to make PAM Half-Elf Vengeance Pally for CHA (STR would be better as then just take 1 level dip but well- his choice):

Paladin 1/Hexblade 4 (ASI)/Paladin rest till 20.

Level 5: PAM. Level 9 - RES (CON). Level 13 - Elven Accuracy. Then take +2 CHA at 17. Then at 20- whatever, might as well be GWM or different ASI.

But you need PAM as fast as possible, Hexblade CHA bonus as fast as possible, RES (CON) as fast as possible for Haste and Elven Accuracy to not waste your racial feat. Still I am against PAM build on Half-Elf but that's what I would do. You lose GWM bonus, you lose a lot of slots for smites. Not a fan of this option. Sword and board is better.

You can also forget PAM and go with greatsword which is imo better for Half-Elf than PAM but still worse than SnB:

Go same Pally 1/Hex 4/Pally rest and feats in that order: Elven Accuracy, RES (CON) and GWM. This way you have level 13 full combo going and you can get max CHA faster.

[BreaktheStatue]

I played a halfling Vengeance/Hexblade from...10 to 16, if I recall. It ended-up as 12 Pally/4 Warlock...wasn't 100% maxed, but it was still ridiculously OP to the point where I started to feel guilty about my output.

The most annoying part of playing him in combat was spending two turns getting-out all my "this guy is screwed" abilities (hexes, pally abilities, etc.) before the attacking could begin in earnest.

But yeah, it is really, really hard to screw-up this build.

[Kaliayev]

The most annoying part of playing him in combat was spending two turns getting-out all my "this guy is screwed" abilities (hexes, pally abilities, etc.) before the attacking could begin in earnest.

I generally approve of hexblade/paladin combos, but this is what has always rubbed me wrong about going vengeance. This combo suffers from bonus action bloat that potentially slows it down, rather than speeding it up. It has hunter's mark/hex application, hexblade's curse, vow of enmity, and a consistent source of bonus action attack.

[Corran]

I generally approve of hexblade/paladin combos, but this is what has always rubbed me wrong about going vengeance. This combo suffers from bonus action bloat that potentially slows it down, rather than speeding it up. It has hunter's mark/hex application, hexblade's curse, vow of enmity, and a consistent source of bonus action attack.
That aside, the whole point of adding hexblade into the mix is to base everything off charisma. Vengeance is probably the oath that least depends on charisma, compared to how the other oaths do.

[Skylivedk]

I would sincerely reconsider using PAM on a hexblade. You are bonus action starved in most fights IMX and it's not very hard to get GWM to proc and hence eliminate the most important part about PAM.

[Tanarii]

The thought behind the build is that hexblade allows you to use charisma rather than strength for attacks, which is needed for elven accuracy to function.

Stats (Point Buy):
Str - 16 (15 base, +1 racial)

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have.
Why Hexblade if you're going with Str 16?
Roll with a more effective patrons and stick with Str. The point of the hexblade's over other patron is getting heavier armor, and still being able to dump Str completely, and getting martial weapons (enhanced by being a bladelock). You already get heavier armor, and aren't dumping Str, don't need martial weapons, and don't need to become a bladelock. You'd be better off with any other Patron and Pact Boon.

Alternately, why Str 16 if you're going with Hexblade?
You only need 13 to multiclass and wear chain. 15 if you want heavier armor.