Incorporeal creature and Soulmelds?

[RH909]

I am building a couple of monster characters more for a story than anything else, but may throw them into a future 3.5 game as NPC adventurers. The one in question will be a CN Joystealer Wilder, and I was thinking about maybe taking her in the direction of a Soul Manifester. I am not very familiar with the incarnum system yet and def plan on doing some decent amount of research, but for now, are Incorporeal creatures even able to fully soulmeld? I feel like they would have no problem shaping the soulmelds or accessing their essentia (I could be wrong on this though) and whatnot, but do incorporeal creatures still have Chakra points to bind them to?

[ColorBlindNinja]

As far as I know, there are no changes to how Incarnum works for incorporeal creatures.

In fact, if memory serves, there is a Chakra Bind that can turn you incorporeal.

EDIT: Yeah, it's the Apparition Ribbon's bound effect.

[RH909]

As far as I know, there are no changes to how Incarnum works for incorporeal creatures.

In fact, if memory serves, there is a Chakra Bind that can turn you incorporeal.

Thank you for that bit of insight. You are right that it wouldn't make much sense for a feature to turn you into something that could no longer use the rest of the class features.

I suppose I'll look over the soulmelders handbook, then look more into soulmelding and draw up a rough character progression for her. My original plan was to just have her go Anarchic Initiate, but building her as a soul manifester will be a good excuse to learn the incarnum system.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Thank you for that bit of insight. You are right that it wouldn't make much sense for a feature to turn you into something that could no longer use the rest of the class features.

No problem.


I suppose I'll look over the soulmelders handbook, then look more into soulmelding and draw up a rough character progression for her. My original plan was to just have her go Anarchic Initiate, but building her as a soul manifester will be a good excuse to learn the incarnum system.

Yeah, I strongly recommend doing that. The system can be really difficult to understand and Magic of Incarnum is laid out very poorly.

Here are some links that might help:

Incarnum and YOU a reference guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215723-Incarnum-and-YOU-a-reference-guide)

The World in One Feat A Shape Soulmeld Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321557-The-World-in-One-Feat-A-Shape-Soulmeld-Handbook)

EDIT: Oh and this one: Soulmeld List by Class and Slot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217064-Soulmeld-List-by-Class-and-Slot)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

MoI addresses the issue of chakras for non-humanoid meldshapers in the monster chapter (Body Shape and Chakras, p. 169). It describes differences in chakras for missing arms and legs, being undead, and similar, but doesn't mention anything about incorporeality; notably, amorphous creatures lack various chakras because they lack limbs, not because they're not solid, and Constitution-less meldshapers only lack a soul chakra, with no distinction made between corporeal and incorporeal undead.

So it's pretty clear that body shape determines one's access to chakras rather than solidity or composition, and a joystealer, as a Fey with the same basic body plan as a human, should have access to all of its chakras.

[ColorBlindNinja]

MConstitution-less meldshapers only lack a soul chakra, with no distinction made between corporeal and incorporeal undead.

I find that bit curious, since I thought the number of Soulmelds you can shape is limited by your CON score.

EDIT: Found the rule:



For all meldshaping characters, your Constitution score determines the maximum number of soulmelds you can have shaped at any one time (up to a limit indicated by your class and level). Your maximum number of simultaneously shaped soulmelds is equal to your Constitution score –10, or the number indicated in your class table, whichever is less.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Indeed it is, but the Undead Meldshaper feat (page 41) lets you use Wis instead of Con for number of soulmelds shaped and save DCs. Of course, this being the poorly-edited MoI, there's no analogous Construct Meldshaper feat even though the No Constitution Score section of page 169 mentions constructs explicitly.

[RH909]

I didn't even take into consideration the Con score effecting my amount. The Undead Meldshaper feat could easily be reworked into the same thing but for living incorporeal creatures, and to me makes sense, seeing how the soul of a living creature should be no different between a solid one vs an incorporeal one.

Thank you both very much for the input so far. I checked out the World in One feat one already, Ill def. check out the other ones too, then I'll give a read through on MofI as well. Im pretty interested in the incarnum system now, so if I decide to abandon my Joystealer from going SM, I'll likely build a third character focusing on Soulmelding just to play around with it a little bit.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Indeed it is, but the Undead Meldshaper feat (page 41) lets you use Wis instead of Con for number of soulmelds shaped and save DCs. Of course, this being the poorly-edited MoI, there's no analogous Construct Meldshaper feat even though the No Constitution Score section of page 169 mentions constructs explicitly.

Ah, I see. That works. :smallsmile:

[RH909]

Haha, just looked up the Joystealer again. They do have a con score, it's a str score they lack. I'll chalk it up to me overthinking the build and working three builds at once (in this case me mixing up the stats for my Joystealer and her Psicrystal). Man, I need to get better quality sleep. XD

[ottdmk]

If you go into Soul Manifester with the minimal investment into a Meldshaping Class (usually two levels of Incarnate) you're going to want a Con of 16 if you can manage it. That'll let you Shape all six Soulmelds that your character would be entitled to as an Incarnate 2/Soul Manifester 10.

[PrismCat21]

Indeed it is, but the Undead Meldshaper feat (page 41) lets you use Wis instead of Con for number of soulmelds shaped and save DCs. Of course, this being the poorly-edited MoI, there's no analogous Construct Meldshaper feat even though the No Constitution Score section of page 169 mentions constructs explicitly.

The No Constitution Score section is on page 170., and that whole Section it's under only cares about Body Shape and Chakras. Not Soulmelds.
Normal Constructs can't form Soulmelds since they're not alive. Undead get a special exception.
If you want Constructs to be able to shape Soulmelds, find the Soulfused Construct template in the monster section of the book. It can be added to most Constructs to make them living constructs, they get both an Int and Con score.


I didn't even take into consideration the Con score effecting my amount. The Undead Meldshaper feat could easily be reworked into the same thing but for living incorporeal creatures, and to me makes sense, seeing how the soul of a living creature should be no different between a solid one vs an incorporeal one.

There's really no reason to. Joystealer has a Constitution Score, it can form Soulmelds just fine. Being Incorporeal doesn't matter. As you said, it's a 'living' incorporeal creature.

[Doctor Awkward]

Indeed it is, but the Undead Meldshaper feat (page 41) lets you use Wis instead of Con for number of soulmelds shaped and save DCs. Of course, this being the poorly-edited MoI, there's no analogous Construct Meldshaper feat even though the No Constitution Score section of page 169 mentions constructs explicitly.

The only concern at this point is that undead do not qualify for any other Incarnum feats, since all of them have a prerequisite of a Con Score (usually 13 or higher), and Undead Meldshaper only substitutes Wisdom for the number of souldmelds shaped and save DC's.

Naturally, on account of this being the poorly-edited MoI.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Naturally, on account of this being the poorly-edited MoI.

You can say that again. :smallfrown:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The No Constitution Score section is on page 170., and that whole Section it's under only cares about Body Shape and Chakras. Not Soulmelds.
Normal Constructs can't form Soulmelds since they're not alive. Undead get a special exception.
If you want Constructs to be able to shape Soulmelds, find the Soulfused Construct template in the monster section of the book. It can be added to most Constructs to make them living constructs, they get both an Int and Con score.

I'm aware of Soulfused Construct, and there are a few other options too (e.g. Warforged, Incarnate Construct). I just find it amusing that they added in a simple feat to sorta kinda make incarnum work for undead (but not really) but couldn't be bothered to do the same for constructs--or even just make it the same feat, something like Unliving Meldshaper, sub the higher of your Wis and Cha for you Con for all incarnum-related purposes including meeting [Incarnum] feat prereqs, works for anything without a Con score.


You can say that again. :smallfrown:

Naturally, on account of this being the poorly-edited MoI.

:smallwink:

[PrismCat21]

I'm aware of Soulfused Construct, and there are a few other options too (e.g. Warforged, Incarnate Construct). I just find it amusing that they added in a simple feat to sorta kinda make incarnum work for undead (but not really) but couldn't be bothered to do the same for constructs--or even just make it the same feat, something like Unliving Meldshaper, sub the higher of your Wis and Cha for you Con for all incarnum-related purposes including meeting [Incarnum] feat prereqs, works for anything without a Con score.

"I find it amusing..." Why should they have added it in? Why do you believe Constructs deserve to be able to use the 'essence of souls'. They're not living creatures, and the never were. It makes sense.

Warforged are not Constructs. They are Living Constructs. There's a very big difference between them.
Incarnate Constructs are not Constructs. They are either Humanoid or Giant. There's an even bigger difference between them.

[ColorBlindNinja]

"I find it amusing..." Why should they have added it in? Why do you believe Constructs deserve to be able to use the 'essence of souls'. They're not living creatures, and the never were. It makes sense.

Well, undead aren't alive either, yet they can still use Incarnum.

[PrismCat21]

Well, undead aren't alive either, yet they can still use Incarnum.

and??? Read the fluff of the Undead Meldshaper feat.


Despite having no soul of their own, you 'maintain' the ability to channel incarnum through force of will alone.
Maintain synonyms: continue, keep, retain, continue, keep in existence.
Sure makes it sound like they once had to potential/ability in the past, and are now able to keep doing it.


...and they never were...

They were once alive. That's the point. That's one of the reasons why the fluff makes sense.
Are you just looking to argue or do you have a relevant point to make?