Help me equip my StP Erudite, please?

[Crichton]

Just a quick request for gear recommendations.


StP Erudite at level 5. Have abut 4500gp to play with right now. He already has a Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Headband of Intellect +2, Vest of Resistance +1, and a handful of items I could conceivably sell off to bump my 4500gp budget a wee bit.


I've thought of an armor type item, but I keep coming back to the fact that I can imprint stones of Inertial Armor literally hundreds of times before I spend as much as I would on a Mithralmist shirt or the like... Any better ideas for me?


Thanks in advance, Playgrounders!

[ColorBlindNinja]

You could always buy some more Powerstones or Scrolls to learn a few more extra powers.

I would also suggest buying some arrows with the Manifester (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#manifesterWeapon) property. Each arrow gives you 5 PP to use for free on one your powers. But that would cost 16,000 gold.

It might be something to save up for, since it can give you way more PP than you would have ordinarily. You just can only use one arrow per manifestation, so you can only ever get 5 PP for free.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I would also suggest buying some arrows with the Manifester (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#manifesterWeapon) property. Each arrow gives you 5 PP to use for free on one your powers. But that would cost 16,000 gold.

It might be something to save up for, since it can give you way more PP than you would have ordinarily. You just can only use one arrow per manifestation, so you can only ever get 5 PP for free.I second this, though remember, 50 arrows costs 16,000 gp. 1 arrow costs 1/50 that much, so buy as many as you reasonably can for now, and buy more later on.

Also, a masterwork chain shirt (made out of a special material; blue ice, maybe?) grants +4 to AC and doesn't penalize you even a little bit for manifesting your powers. You can always get it enhanced with armor properties later on. Even if you run out of duration on inertial armor, you still have that +4 to AC, and you can even sleep in it.

Power stones are also a fantastic investment, but remember, manifesting from a stone shouldn't cost you one of your UPPD because you're not manifesting from your repertoire, so stock up on low level power stones (which are extremely cheap) to extend your flexibility even after you've eaten up your UPPD or power points for the day.

[Crichton]

Thanks guys! Keep them coming!


The Manifester Arrow trick is probably a bit too much cheese for my DM, despite it being RAW. Just makes PP too cheap. I can ask, I guess. I'd love to have a cheap source of PP like that.


I'll definitely pick up a couple Power Stones/Scrolls, though I've already learned enough that I'm starting to lag behind the party a bit more than I'm quite comfortable with. Starting to prioritize more, and not just hoover up all the powers.


As for armor, I've looked at Mithral chainshirts, Mithralmist (miss chances ftw!), and even Psychoactive Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor, but I keep doing the math and realizing that I could buff with stones of Inertial Armor pretty much all the time, and never spend as much as even a chainshirt, at least not anytime soon. But perhaps if I have the funds to spare, it wouldn't be a bad fallback... I dunno...


As for manifesting from a stone, I have a collection of level 1 and a few level 2 powers in stones for that purpose, but due to the CPsi nerf (doing it this way expends the stone), it's not as economical as it should be... Basically not much advantage over just buying and expending the stone, unless I need to use my own ML or augment the power.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Remember: Anyone with the right setup can dispel your inertial armor, while dispelling a masterwork chain shirt does nothing.

You might want to look into a few chronocharms. They're incredibly cheap, and you can use pretty much all of them. You can also use the magic-to-psionic item rules in the MIC to craft a pair of psionic arcanist gloves with a few extra charges. Then later on, add psionic metamagicpsionic rod abilities to it, and use psionic open chakra to bind the metapsionic gloves to your hands chakra to gain an extra +1 ML whenever you manifest an Extended astral construct, or whatever (which stacks with any other ML boosts you've got).

[Crichton]

Remember: Anyone with the right setup can dispel your inertial armor, while dispelling a masterwork chain shirt does nothing.

You might want to look into a few chronocharms. They're incredibly cheap, and you can use pretty much all of them. You can also use the magic-to-psionic item rules in the MIC to craft a pair of psionic arcanist gloves with a few extra charges. Then later on, add psionic metamagicpsionic rod abilities to it, and use psionic open chakra to bind the metapsionic gloves to your hands chakra to gain an extra +1 ML whenever you manifest an Extended astral construct, or whatever (which stacks with any other ML boosts you've got).

Good point about dispelling. I'll have to think about that.

How would psionic arcanist gloves function? Just boost ML for duration, PR, and dispellability? Most powers need to be augmented to have extra effects beyond those. Do they boost MY manifester level for the purpose of my max pp per power? Like Overchannel?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Manifester Arrow trick is probably a bit too much cheese for my DM, despite it being RAW. Just makes PP too cheap. I can ask, I guess. I'd love to have a cheap source of PP like that.

It seems a lot worse than it actually is at first blush.

Remember that you can only use a single source of pp when manifesting a power. Bestow power doesn't work with stored power points, "only power points generated by a psionic creature in the moment can be shared using bestow power," so you can't even recharge your own reserve from them. 5 pp is only a single, unaugmented 3rd level power. To do anything more potent requires a cognizance crystal or similar and they get expensive quickly; 16k for a 7 pp crystal.

[Shadowquad]

A mithral heavy shield is +2 shield bonus to AC, can be enchanted for cheap, and has no malus for non-proficiency

[Crichton]

It seems a lot worse than it actually is at first blush.

Remember that you can only use a single source of pp when manifesting a power. Bestow power doesn't work with stored power points, "only power points generated by a psionic creature in the moment can be shared using bestow power," so you can't even recharge your own reserve from them. 5 pp is only a single, unaugmented 3rd level power. To do anything more potent requires a cognizance crystal or similar and they get expensive quickly; 16k for a 7 pp crystal.

I agree that it's not actually so bad, but telling me right now that it's only a single unaugmented 3rd (my highest level powers right now) isn't much of a limitation, and broken down by arrow, that's 320gp for each extra manifestation per day. That's kinda hugely cheap. Or to put it another way, for 16000(the price of your one 7pp crystal), I can have, effectively, 50 5pp crystals. That's a hard sell to my DM.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Another cheesy trick is to pick up the feat Supernatural Transformation. Apply it to your manifesting and it becomes supernatural. No SR/PR, no XP components, no AoO, it's a gold mine of feat.

Of course, it's borderline TO and most tables won't allow it, but I thought I'd point it out. :smallwink:

[Troacctid]

Another cheesy trick is to pick up the feat Supernatural Transformation. Apply it to your manifesting and it becomes supernatural. No SR/PR, no XP components, no AoO, it's a gold mine of feat.

Of course, it's borderline TO and most tables won't allow it, but I thought I'd point it out. :smallwink:
Supernatural ability applies to a single SLA. You can't apply it to all your powers. Just one at a time at best.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Supernatural ability applies to a single SLA. You can't apply it to all your powers. Just one at a time at best.

Manifesting is a Psionic Like Ability. You apply the feat to that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I agree that it's not actually so bad, but telling me right now that it's only a single unaugmented 3rd (my highest level powers right now) isn't much of a limitation, and broken down by arrow, that's 320gp for each extra manifestation per day. That's kinda hugely cheap. Or to put it another way, for 16000(the price of your one 7pp crystal), I can have, effectively, 50 5pp crystals. That's a hard sell to my DM.

Augmentation is -really- important in psionics. Unless you're going to be 5th level for a long time manifester ammo quickly loses its shine. It's not even all that great at 5 if you have any kind of manifester level boosting feats, items, or class features. By 9, you -could- reasonably afford a full batch but their use at that level would be substantially underpowered to the point that it'd just be pissing your gold away.

They're decent as-is between levels 4 and 8 or so but they're too expensive to get a bunch before then and underpowered after.

Edit: and don't forget the action cost if you're charging cog crystals. They're terribly inefficient in combat once they're not good enough by themselves anymore.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Augmentation is -really- important in psionics. Unless you're going to be 5th level for a long time manifester ammo quickly loses its shine. It's not even all that great at 5 if you have any kind of manifester level boosting feats, items, or class features. By 9, you -could- reasonably afford a full batch but their use at that level would be substantially underpowered to the point that it'd just be pissing your gold away.

They're decent as-is between levels 4 and 8 or so but they're too expensive to get a bunch before then and underpowered after.

I mean, if you buy 50 of them at once and then never buy them again you're still getting 5 free PP with every manifesting.

[Troacctid]

Manifesting is a Psionic Like Ability. You apply the feat to that.
In that case it only affects the power to manifest other powers, not the other powers themselves. Which raises a lot of questions. When do you manifest the ability to manifest powers, anyway? Is it an extra standard action before every other power you manifest? That seems cumbersome even as a (Su) ability! Is it an ongoing effect that can be dispelled? Making it (Su) prevents it from being dispelled, but it seems like in that case the feat is giving you a ladder to climb out of a rules hole you dug yourself into in the first place. Is it an instantaneous effect that you only manifest once and then forget about? Then why would you care whether it provokes or not? You're never going to manifest it during combat either way. What happens if you manifest it a second time? Do your power points reset? Do your powers known reset? So many questions.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I mean, if you buy 50 of them at once and then never buy them again you're still getting 5 free PP with every manifesting.

No, you're not. You're getting 50 manifestations at 5pp each. They cannot be added to manifestations from your own reserve or any other source. That's great... when you can't really afford it. By the time you can it's already losing momentum.

[ColorBlindNinja]

In that case it only affects the power to manifest other powers, not the other powers themselves.

That does not follow at all.


Which raises a lot of questions. When do you manifest the ability to manifest powers, anyway? Is it an extra standard action before every other power you manifest? That seems cumbersome even as a (Su) ability! Is it an ongoing effect that can be dispelled? Making it (Su) prevents it from being dispelled, but it seems like in that case the feat is giving you a ladder to climb out of a rules hole you dug yourself into in the first place. Is it an instantaneous effect that you only manifest once and then forget about? Then why would you care whether it provokes or not? You're never going to manifest it during combat either way. What happens if you manifest it a second time? Do your power points reset? Do your powers known reset? So many questions.

You're making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Making it supernatural means it doesn't cost XP, doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity and doesn't allow power/spell resistance.

EDIT:


No, you're not. You're getting 50 manifestations at 5pp each. They cannot be added to manifestations from your own reserve or any other source.

Didn't realize that rules out your own PP reserve. You can still manifest 1st-3rd powers for free.


That's great... when you can't really afford it. By the time you can it's already losing momentum.

Fair enough.

[Troacctid]

No, you're not. You're getting 50 manifestations at 5pp each. They cannot be added to manifestations from your own reserve or any other source. That's great... when you can't really afford it. By the time you can it's already losing momentum.
There are loads of powers that cost 5 pp or less to manifest and don't need to be augmented. A rechargable source of extra daily uses of them is very valuable. It's like a 3rd level schema, except at 1/20th the normal price and you use your own caster level.

[Crichton]

There are loads of powers that cost 5 pp or less to manifest and don't need to be augmented. A rechargable source of extra daily uses of them is very valuable. It's like a 3rd level schema, except at 1/20th the normal price and you use your own caster level.

Thus why it's such a hard-sell to my DM, especially since we're at level 5 right now, so that's a bunch of very very cheap extra manifestations of my highest level powers.

[Troacctid]

You're making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Making it supernatural means it doesn't cost XP, doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity and doesn't allow power/spell resistance.
But that's predicated on there being a single PLA that you must manifest in order to manifest powers, rather than each individual power being a PLA in itself, and that interpretation has a lot of odd implications. You just haven't thought them through all the way.

Here's another fun extrapolation. If the powers individually are not PLAs, then they're not subject to the general rules for PLAs, which means they provoke, require concentration, and have xp components as a result of their own specific rules, which would be unaffected by becoming (Su). On the other hand, if the powers themselves are PLAs, then they won't stop being PLAs if the ability that grants them becomes (Su).

[Kelb_Panthera]

There are loads of powers that cost 5 pp or less to manifest and don't need to be augmented. A rechargable source of extra daily uses of them is very valuable. It's like a 3rd level schema, except at 1/20th the normal price and you use your own caster level.

There're some utility powers that you could, admittedly, spam to hell and back but a quick skim of the power list says that there aren't that many and they're nothing to write home about. The real killer here are going to be converted spells of 3rd level and lower but I'd content that that's the StP variant's fault rather than the manifester ammo's.

I still think they're less of a problem than they're made out to be.


Thus why it's such a hard-sell to my DM, especially since we're at level 5 right now, so that's a bunch of very very cheap extra manifestations of my highest level powers.

You're at a wealth level slightly past a level 6 character. Is the whole party level 5 or did you fall behind spending xp?

[ColorBlindNinja]

But that's predicated on there being a single PLA that you must manifest in order to manifest powers, rather than each individual power being a PLA in itself, and that interpretation has a lot of odd implications. You just haven't thought them through all the way.

It's not an interpretation, it's RAW:



Psi-Like Abilities (Ps): The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures)...

Emphasis mine.


Here's another fun extrapolation. If the powers individually are not PLAs, then they're not subject to the general rules for PLAs, which means they provoke, require concentration, and have xp components as a result of their own specific rules, which would be unaffected by becoming (Su).

Care to cite a rule to back up this claim?

If your manifesting is supernatural, then it follows your powers are too.

Just as if your manifesting is a PLA, they inherit rules from them too.


On the other hand, if the powers themselves are PLAs, then they won't stop being PLAs if the ability that grants them becomes (Su).

And there's no reason to think that individual powers known are PLAs.

[Troacctid]

It's not an interpretation, it's RAW:
If it's a psi-like ability, then the rules for psi-like abilities apply to it. That means at some point you have to activate it (defaulting to a standard action) and it lasts for a certain duration. So how long does it last? What happens if you activate it multiple times?


Care to cite a rule to back up this claim?

If your manifesting is supernatural, then it follows your powers are too.

Just as if your manifesting is a PLA, they inherit rules from them too.
Do you have a citation? Where in the RAW does it say or imply that if you gain a special ability, it has the same type as whatever ability granted it? There's no basis in the rules for that AFAICT. If it were true, it seems like it would cause a lot of problems with polymorph effects, for example.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If it's a psi-like ability, then the rules for psi-like abilities apply to it. That means at some point you have to activate it (defaulting to a standard action) and it lasts for a certain duration. So how long does it last? What happens if you activate it multiple times?

To my knowledge, the rules don't say anything about that.


Do you have a citation?

You're deflecting, answer the question.


Where in the RAW does it say or imply that if you gain a special ability, it has the same type as whatever ability granted it? There's no basis in the rules for that AFAICT. If it were true, it seems like it would cause a lot of problems with polymorph effects, for example.

All I was saying is that psionic powers seem to follow all the rules for PLAs. I never said it was a hard and fast rule, it's an extrapolation.

EDIT 2: I realize I made my words less than clear and apologize for that. :smallfrown:


Then there's the feat itself:



One of your innate spell-like abilities becomes a supernatural ability. It is no longer subject to spell resistance, though it can still be suppressed in an antimagic field. Using this ability does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

EDIT: Also, under your interpretation, the feat literally does nothing for a manifester.

[Crichton]

You're at a wealth level slightly past a level 6 character. Is the whole party level 5 or did you fall behind spending xp?

Assuming you're basing that on the list of gear I currently have plus the budget I said I have left. I can see why it would look that way.

Thing is, I crafted several of those items myself, so only paid half the gp cost of the items. Our party is all, collectively, about 2000gp above the level 5 threshold of 9000gp. As for xp, I'm about 1000 or so behind the party, now. We're not quite halfway to level 6, so being 2k above the 5th level wbl is about right.

WBL only counts the gp value of loot you receive as treasure, not the actual retail value of the items you have, so crafting is a good way to extend the reach of your pocketbook.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Assuming you're basing that on the list of gear I currently have plus the budget I said I have left. I can see why it would look that way.

Thing is, I crafted several of those items myself, so only paid half the gp cost of the items. Our party is all, collectively, about 2000gp above the level 5 threshold of 9000gp. As for xp, I'm about 1000 or so behind the party, now. We're not quite halfway to level 6, so being 2k above the 5th level wbl is about right.

WBL only counts the gp value of loot you receive as treasure, not the actual retail value of the items you have, so crafting is a good way to extend the reach of your pocketbook.

That's not really right, WBL very much -is- supposed to be tracked against items' market prices, but question answered nonetheless.

Have you seen this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a) before? High end tattoos can help you get around your unique powers per day limit.

[ColorBlindNinja]

High end tattoos can help you get around your unique powers per day limit.

Speaking of, doesn't Arcane Fusion allow you to also bypass UPD?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Supernatural ability applies to a single SLA. You can't apply it to all your powers. Just one at a time at best.Guess what happens when you look at psionic monster entries? That's riiiiight. They have a single entry named "Psionics (Ps)."

Not that you ever listened before when I quote RAW, but at least other people will see the RAW rebuttal. There are reasons I've stopped talking after a certain point in our "debates;" it's like talking to a wall.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Guess what happens when you look at psinoic monster entries? That's riiiiight. They have a single entry named "Psionics (Ps)."

Not that you ever listened before when I quote RAW, but at least other people will see the RAW rebuttal. There are reasons I've stopped talking after a certain point in our "debates;" it's like talking to a wall.

I already quoted the relevant rules to her.




Psi-Like Abilities (Ps): The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures)...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I already quoted the relevant rules to her.I've done that before. That exact passage, too. Didn't take.

[Troacctid]

Guess what happens when you look at psionic monster entries? That's riiiiight. They have a single entry named "Psionics (Ps)."
Uh...what? Where?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/467192850862571522/533834412580667399/unknown.png


To my knowledge, the rules don't say anything about that.
Indeed. And it seems that you're making some assumptions about how it works that, consequently, aren't backed up by RAW.


You're deflecting, answer the question.
Okay. The rules to support your reading don't exist. You're filling in the gaps with extrapolations about how you think it would work. But since those extrapolations aren't in the text, it's not RAW.


All I was saying is that psionic powers seem to follow all the rules for PLAs. I never said it was a hard and fast rule, it's an extrapolation.
They certainly don't follow all the rules for PLAs—notably, you can't manifest them without spending power points, you have to spend XP costs as necessary, and they aren't automatically augmented to the maximum possible for your manifester level.


EDIT: Also, under your interpretation, the feat literally does nothing for a manifester.
It also does nothing for sorcerers. I don't see the problem.

[Crichton]

That's not really right, WBL very much -is- supposed to be tracked against items' market prices, but question answered nonetheless.

Not according to the description in the DMG that defines what WBL is, and how they arrived at the numbers. The numbers in the WBL chart are nothing more than a sum of 14 encounters per level worth of loot from the loot generation tables, minus a percentage they say they assume you'll use for consumables like potions and things. In multiple places in the DMG they define how they get those numbers, and tell how the numbers describe how much treasure a character should receive, not how much value worth of gear they have if they use the rules to multiply their wealth, or stretch its use. DMG pages 51, 54, and 135.


Have you seen this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a) before? High end tattoos can help you get around your unique powers per day limit.

I have, and I have some plans for making those work for me, later on. Thanks for pointing them out!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Uh...what? Where?Sorry, "psionic powers." Not that the change in name is that important. What is important is that it's listed as a single ability.

And in a previous quote, you'll notice it says "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability." That is to say, one single psi-like ability.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not according to the description in the DMG that defines what WBL is, and how they arrived at the numbers. The numbers in the WBL chart are nothing more than a sum of 14 encounters per level worth of loot from the loot generation tables, minus a percentage they say they assume you'll use for consumables like potions and things. In multiple places in the DMG they define how they get those numbers, and tell how the numbers describe how much treasure a character should receive, not how much value worth of gear they have if they use the rules to multiply their wealth, or stretch its use. DMG pages 51, 54, and 135.

You need to reread, particularly 135.


One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items. Table 5-1; character wealth by level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters.

When you compare the wealth by level chart to the chart in the sidebar on 54 you see that the average treasure tables actually produce a greater value. Table 5-1 is adjusted for the fact that some treasure will be spent as consumables and/or sold off for more appropriate equipment. There's no reason to believe the magic items from the treasure tables were counted at half value when those averages were calculated and crafting feats have value even if gear is counted in full against WBL.

Allowing crafters to bypass the guidelines gives them a -dramatic- boost in power unless they're eating the XP cost to outfit the whole group. More to the point, it -sharply- changes the relationship between that character's XP and the GP value of his gear.


I have, and I have some plans for making those work for me, later on. Thanks for pointing them out!

Yeah, that's one of my absolute favorite articles from the old archives. Needs a little adjustment for the 3.0/3.5 overhaul but it's otherwise golden.

[Troacctid]

Sorry, "psionic powers." Not that the change in name is that important. What is important is that it's listed as a single ability.
But...it's not marked with (Ps)? And it's listed the exact same way as SLAs are?


And in a previous quote, you'll notice it says "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability." That is to say, one single psi-like ability.
So what's its duration? What's its level? What exactly happens when you manifest it?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

For what it's worth, I would share Troaccid's reading of the rules.

I think that applying that feat to the Psionics class ability has no effect, as each power is individually it's own thing (with components specified). It's not even its own action!

[Crichton]

First off, thanks for taking the time to respond and contribute, and for a friendly, civil discussion. I appreciate you.





When you compare the wealth by level chart to the chart in the sidebar on 54 you see that the average treasure tables actually produce a greater value. Table 5-1 is adjusted for the fact that some treasure will be spent as consumables

Yes, which I already stated in my post that you quoted. In fact, comparing those values indicate that by level 20 they expect you spend approximately 13.7 percent of your received treasure on consumables. In other words, WBL is 13.7 percent less than the amount of treasure received (averaged out over the 20 level progression)

Not sure why you bolded the part about experience points. That was my point. The experience per encounter system assumes 13.33 level-appropriate encounters to gain enough XP to reach the next level, and the treasure tables tell you how much treasure per encounter, and thus treasure per level, you should be receiving from those 13.33 encounters.



and/or sold off for more appropriate equipment.


Players/characters do do this, but there is no mention whatsoever of any values of any treasure charts or the WBL numbers reflecting anything like this. They repeatedly explain that they reflect only the amount of treasure you're expected to receive (minus your consumables expenditure, in the case of the WBL chart, Table 5-1)

In fact they define what they think those consumables will be in a couple places. Page 51 lists them as 'Potions and scrolls" and the sidebar on page 54 describes them as "scrolls, potions, ammunition, and food" and then in the next line adds 'being raised from the dead' to that list. That sidebar is where it specifically states that the treasure tables will produce more loot value than the WBL table, and then says those 5 things are the reason why. They expect you to spend 13.7 percent of your received treasure on scrolls, potions, ammunition, food, and resurrections. No mention of any other items being considered in that calculation, or of WBL numbers taking trade-ins of gear into account.


There's no reason to believe the magic items from the treasure tables were counted at half value when those averages were calculated

I guess I don't follow. Why would they count magic item treasure at half value? Unless your whole point is that the equipment and magic items you receive as treasure don't translate into gp directly, which is true. You sell for half.

If that's your whole point, then your position essentially is that no character should ever be at their full WBL, or even close to it, because any item they buy costs them twice as much as a comparable item from treasure. So if that's the line you take, you basically are telling your players to take what they get, randomly, and not pursue gear as any part of a character build plan, or to take a 2 to 1 hit on any items they want, and they'll never have anything even remotely close to the value worth of gear the WBL table indicates.

For example, if a player at your table wanted a Headband of Intellect +2, which costs 4000gp to buy, they'd have to sell 8000gp worth of their equipment or magic item treasure to get it, putting them 4000gp behind the WBL numbers (from the way you seem to be calculating them). A player at your table would be lucky to have half the WBL worth of stuff, then. Maybe 2/3, if they get lucky with treasure drops. If that's the way you want to play, that's entirely up to you, but I'd hope you tell players ahead of time that they'll be playing what would essentially be a low-wealth game.



and crafting feats have value even if gear is counted in full against WBL.

1) As I've already pointed out from the rules that define what WBL is, gear isn't "counted against" WBL. WBL doesn't measure what you have, only what you've received from encounters.
2) Do they? Aside from compensating for a gear-restrictive setting or DM, I fail to see what value they'd have (using your approach to WBL-as-audit, instead of the rules of WBL-as-distribution), at least what value they'd have that would be enough to choose them over other feats.






Allowing crafters to bypass the guidelines gives them a -dramatic- boost in power unless they're eating the XP cost to outfit the whole group.


I don't disagree with that statement, in general. That's the sacrifice for spending one of the most limited resources a character has - feats - to be able to do so. Additionally, any and all crafting of magic items are done require DM approval, and DM allocation of downtime, so I guess I don't see what the issue would ever be. If the DM doesn't want you to use your resources to craft, they tell you no.




More to the point, it -sharply- changes the relationship between that character's XP and the GP value of his gear.


In examining, and now re-examining the language regarding treasure and WBL, there doesn't appear to be a relationship between xp and gear value. The rules define a relationship between XP received in encounters and treasure received in encounters, but that's not at all the same thing.


In this campaign, we've been fairly fortunate with useful loot, and cash and gems and other full-value loot items, and fairly fortunate with the overall amount of loot. We're running a WotC published 3.5 adventure module, so the treasure being given out is pre-defined.



To wrap up, it seems like you have to take one of two paths with WBL.


- You either give out the exact numbers worth of value to your players, despite most of the valuable items probably not being useful to your party, and just play a game where your characters all have way less than the charts, because they've sold 1000gp worth of stuff for every 500gp worth of purchasing power (this basically what the treasure rule indicate, but I don't see too many playgrounders advocating for this very low-wealth style of play)

- Or you tell your players that when it says they receive 1000gp worth of treasure, you're gonna give them 1000gp worth of treasure, and let them do with it as they please (Just about every character building discussion here on the playground assumes that the character can have [WBL] worth of specific hand-selected items, just as if all treasure received was in cash money, so I imagine most folks here would go for something similar to this approach)

[ColorBlindNinja]

Indeed. And it seems that you're making some assumptions about how it works that, consequently, aren't backed up by RAW.

And you aren't?

EDIT 2: Also, I'm using a feat description to support my claims. That's RAW.



Okay. The rules to support your reading don't exist. You're filling in the gaps with extrapolations about how you think it would work. But since those extrapolations aren't in the text, it's not RAW.

That was not a citation for your claim.

EDIT: Your claim:


Here's another fun extrapolation. If the powers individually are not PLAs, then they're not subject to the general rules for PLAs, which means they provoke, require concentration, and have xp components as a result of their own specific rules, which would be unaffected by becoming (Su).



They certainly don't follow all the rules for PLAs—notably, you can't manifest them without spending power points, you have to spend XP costs as necessary, and they aren't automatically augmented to the maximum possible for your manifester level.

Correct.

But the feat itself still has a stated effect.


It also does nothing for sorcerers. I don't see the problem.

You don't find it curious that you can apply a feat to an SLA or PLA and it does nothing? Despite the feat having a stated effect when it does such?

[Troacctid]

And you aren't?
Correct!


EDIT 2: Also, I'm using a feat description to support my claims. That's RAW.
The feat description says it affects a single spell-like ability. Your claim is that "Every single psionic power I have" all counts as one singular spell-like ability, and the feat affects all of them at once. Which part of the feat supports that?


That was not a citation for your claim.

EDIT: Your claim:
There's a whole chapter in XPH that details how powers work. None of it includes anything to the effect of "Because powers are PLAs..." So none of it depends on powers being PLAs.


You don't find it curious that you can apply a feat to an SLA or PLA and it does nothing? Despite the feat having a stated effect when it does such?
First off, it doesn't do nothing, it just doesn't do anything useful. Second, no, I don't find it curious—it's no different than taking Empower Spell-Like Ability (astral construct ). Third, I think the individual powers themselves all count as separate PLAs, which means it works just fine for psionics, you just have to pick one power instead of all of them at once.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Correct!

Wrong. You have not quoted any RAW to support your claim.


The feat description says it affects a single spell-like ability. Your claim is that "Every single psionic power I have" all counts as one singular spell-like ability, and the feat affects all of them at once.

Did you forget the passage I quoted which explicitly says that manifesting is a PLA?

This one?



Psi-Like Abilities (Ps): The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures).

Emphasis mine.

I claim nothing, it's RAW.


Which part of the feat supports that?

The part that says that your SLA becomes supernatural and doesn't have XP and whatnot?



There's a whole chapter in XPH that details how powers work. None of it includes anything to the effect of "Because powers are PLAs..." So none of it depends on powers being PLAs.

No, I meant your claim that Supernatural Transformation wouldn't make your powers supernatural.


First off, it doesn't do nothing, it just doesn't do anything useful.

Then what does it do?


Second, no, I don't find it curious—it's no different than taking Empower Spell-Like Ability (astral construct ).

And yet, if one doesn't interpret the way the feat works as you do, it suddenly functions in this case.

That would heavily imply that your interpretation is wrong.


Third, I think the individual powers themselves all count as separate PLAs, which means it works just fine for psionics, you just have to pick one power instead of all of them at once.

Then quote some text to prove it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

First off, thanks for taking the time to respond and contribute, and for a friendly, civil discussion. I appreciate you.

I'll take this at face value but it comes off a little condescending, in my opinion. I tend to presume that people are in such forums for friendly, civil discussion until I catch them trolling, which is explicitly forbidden on this particular forum. To thank someone for doing what you expect them to do is how you address small children. Please don't take this as an accusation. I'm just explaining my perspective. If I thought you were deliberately condescending to me, I wouldn't respond at all.

That aside, let's dig in.



Yes, which I already stated in my post that you quoted. In fact, comparing those values indicate that by level 20 they expect you spend approximately 13.7 percent of your received treasure on consumables. In other words, WBL is 13.7 percent less than the amount of treasure received (averaged out over the 20 level progression)

While this is likely mathematically accurate, it misses the point. There's an -expected- level of wealth that translates directly to PC power. That's why the header for the section that the character wealth subsection is in is labeled "Character Power Levels." These things are not describing what does happen but what should for game balance purposes.


Not sure why you bolded the part about experience points. That was my point. The experience per encounter system assumes 13.33 level-appropriate encounters to gain enough XP to reach the next level, and the treasure tables tell you how much treasure per encounter, and thus treasure per level, you should be receiving from those 13.33 encounters.

I highlighted it to point out that there is an expected relationship between wealth and experience beyond simple coincidence. Both are intrinsically tied to the actual power of the PC and if either is out of whack it can throw a character off of the expected power curve. Again, that's why it's in the section it's in.





Players/characters do do this, but there is no mention whatsoever of any values of any treasure charts or the WBL numbers reflecting anything like this. They repeatedly explain that they reflect only the amount of treasure you're expected to receive (minus your consumables expenditure, in the case of the WBL chart, Table 5-1)


... Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have. Not "will have," not "recieves," but "should have." That's prescriptive, not descriptive language.


In fact they define what they think those consumables will be in a couple places. Page 51 lists them as 'Potions and scrolls" and the sidebar on page 54 describes them as "scrolls, potions, ammunition, and food" and then in the next line adds 'being raised from the dead' to that list. That sidebar is where it specifically states that the treasure tables will produce more loot value than the WBL table, and then says those 5 things are the reason why. They expect you to spend 13.7 percent of your received treasure on scrolls, potions, ammunition, food, and resurrections. No mention of any other items being considered in that calculation, or of WBL numbers taking trade-ins of gear into account.

These were given as examples of "expenses" and are not exhaustive. Buying the most appropriate gear you can after selling off the art objects, mundane gear, and unusable or inadequate magic items that do not contribute to any of the PC's power is also an expense. That it wasn't explicitly included in the examples doesn't negate that.


I guess I don't follow. Why would they count magic item treasure at half value? Unless your whole point is that the equipment and magic items you receive as treasure don't translate into gp directly, which is true. You sell for half.

My point is that the value of, for example, a ring of protection +1 is 2k gold, whether you've bought it, found it, or made it yourself. A measure of wealth -must- be taken against the -value- of the goods you have, rather than how much you spent on them. To do otherwise could have two characters of dramatically different power levels said to be at the same level of wealth, which is absurd.


If that's your whole point, then your position essentially is that no character should ever be at their full WBL, or even close to it, because any item they buy costs them twice as much as a comparable item from treasure. So if that's the line you take, you basically are telling your players to take what they get, randomly, and not pursue gear as any part of a character build plan, or to take a 2 to 1 hit on any items they want, and they'll never have anything even remotely close to the value worth of gear the WBL table indicates.

You don't buy -every- piece of your gear. Some is found, some is bought, and some is sometimes made by the party directly. The guideline is telling the DM how much what they actually have -should- be worth, approximately.

That's the thing you're missing; it is a guideline. If it was merely descriptive then there's nothing to interpret, much less interpret strictly, as the section explicitly advises.


For example, if a player at your table wanted a Headband of Intellect +2, which costs 4000gp to buy, they'd have to sell 8000gp worth of their equipment or magic item treasure to get it, putting them 4000gp behind the WBL numbers (from the way you seem to be calculating them). A player at your table would be lucky to have half the WBL worth of stuff, then. Maybe 2/3, if they get lucky with treasure drops. If that's the way you want to play, that's entirely up to you, but I'd hope you tell players ahead of time that they'll be playing what would essentially be a low-wealth game.

When the party inevitably falls out of line with the guideline, and they will since there's too many variables for there to be any substantial chance of them not, it's up to the DM to adjust the amount of treasure present up or down as appropriate. This can be accomplished by using creatures with higher or lower treasure values or by putting "hidden" caches in the party's path, having them attacked by thieves or gear destroying monsters, etc and so on. That there is such a dramatic degree of variation in how much wealth the party can receive or lose as they progress through the campaign and because wealth translates directly to power through magic items, there is a -need- for a guideline on how much wealth they -should- have if the relationship between the party's level and the CR of various foes and obstacles is to have anything resembling a meaningful relationship.




1) As I've already pointed out from the rules that define what WBL is, gear isn't "counted against" WBL. WBL doesn't measure what you have, only what you've received from encounters.

This is exactly the point of contention between us. To use it as an argument is circular reasoning. It's also, in my estimation, just plain wrong. A descriptive reading of the wealth by level guidelines divorces them from the section they're found in and makes them cease to be a guideline. The guideline is prescriptive.


2) Do they? Aside from compensating for a gear-restrictive setting or DM, I fail to see what value they'd have (using your approach to WBL-as-audit, instead of the rules of WBL-as-distribution), at least what value they'd have that would be enough to choose them over other feats.

Certainly. They allow you to bypass the community gold piece limit in smaller settlements as long as there's enough liquid wealth in the community for crafting supplies. They allow you to get highly customized gear that would otherwise be very difficult to find. They do allow you to pickup gear earlier than you could otherwise afford it and temporarily surge ahead of the guideline until the DM compensates.

The descriptive approach to WBL makes crafting feats so much better a choice than most alternatives that you'd have to be a fool not to take them, especially as a non-caster (there are some hoops but it's very doable.)



I don't disagree with that statement, in general. That's the sacrifice for spending one of the most limited resources a character has - feats - to be able to do so. Additionally, any and all crafting of magic items are done require DM approval, and DM allocation of downtime, so I guess I don't see what the issue would ever be. If the DM doesn't want you to use your resources to craft, they tell you no.

That's not a sacrifice. It's an advantage. It's an advantage so out of line with virtually any other feat that it's kind of insane. For one feat I get nearly -double- the power from treasure? Why would I choose anything else, especially if I can do so without having to jump through any hoops at all (wiz bonus feat)?

The DM has final say on all things in the game he's mastering. If he doesn't want to allow crafting then he can simply ban the players from selecting crafting feats. I'd argue that to "soft ban" them by simply never allowing their use after selection is actually a pretty jerk move. Limiting it during certain adventures or portions of adventures is fine, of course.



In examining, and now re-examining the language regarding treasure and WBL, there doesn't appear to be a relationship between xp and gear value. The rules define a relationship between XP received in encounters and treasure received in encounters, but that's not at all the same thing.

Then there's no relationship between wealth and power within the system. This is not only nonsensical on the face of it but in direct opposition to the guidelines' own text and placement within the chapter of the DMG. I'm sorry but I'm very sure you're mistaken about this.



In this campaign, we've been fairly fortunate with useful loot, and cash and gems and other full-value loot items, and fairly fortunate with the overall amount of loot. We're running a WotC published 3.5 adventure module, so the treasure being given out is pre-defined.

It doesn't have to be and, in fact, most such modules even include guidelines on how to adjust their difficulty up or down with party level and composition. The DMG explicitly calls on DMs to adjust treasure to meet the guidelines. That he should choose to use a module that does most of the work for him is no reason to ignore such direction.


To wrap up, it seems like you have to take one of two paths with WBL.


- You either give out the exact numbers worth of value to your players, despite most of the valuable items probably not being useful to your party, and just play a game where your characters all have way less than the charts, because they've sold 1000gp worth of stuff for every 500gp worth of purchasing power (this basically what the treasure rule indicate, but I don't see too many playgrounders advocating for this very low-wealth style of play)

- Or you tell your players that when it says they receive 1000gp worth of treasure, you're gonna give them 1000gp worth of treasure, and let them do with it as they please (Just about every character building discussion here on the playground assumes that the character can have [WBL] worth of specific hand-selected items, just as if all treasure received was in cash money, so I imagine most folks here would go for something similar to this approach)

If you make no specific effort to line up with the WBL chart, you won't line up with the WBL chart, virtually ever. The dice alone will ensure that much. The very existence of creatures with non-standard treasure and gear destroying abilities, from a simple sunder up through disjunction, reduces that probability further to near zero.

You give them the randomly determined treasures, monitor the actual wealth they have compared to what they should, and you adjust future treasure drops as necessary to keep them on-track. If you're a generous sort, you even hand select certain items from time to time and toss them to a player that wants/needs that particular thing more than another randomly generated painting or the 91st +1 longsword the table spat out.

[Troacctid]

Then quote some text to prove it.
Okay.

psionics: Telepathy, mental combat and psychic powers -- psionics is a catchall word that describes special mental abilities possessed by various creatures. These are spell-like abilities that a creature generates from the power of its mind alone -- no other outside magical force or ritual is needed.

A power is manifested when a psionic character pays its power point cost. Some psionic creatures automatically manifest powers, called psi-like abilities, without paying a power point cost. Other creatures pay power points to manifest their powers, just as characters do.

Whether they cost power points when manifest by a psionic character, or are manifested as psi-like abilities, powers’ effects remain the same.

These powers represent abilities unlocked from latency.
All plural.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Okay.

You didn't prove anything, you realize?


psionics: Telepathy, mental combat and psychic powers -- psionics is a catchall word that describes special mental abilities possessed by various creatures. These are spell-like abilities that a creature generates from the power of its mind alone -- no other outside magical force or ritual is needed.

This proves my point, that manifesting is a PLA.


A power is manifested when a psionic character pays its power point cost. Some psionic creatures automatically manifest powers, called psi-like abilities, without paying a power point cost. Other creatures pay power points to manifest their powers, just as characters do.

This is talking about the difference between manifesting and PLAs.

This can't prove your point unless manifesting powers doesn't cost PP. Which isn't the case.


Whether they cost power points when manifest by a psionic character, or are manifested as psi-like abilities, powers’ effects remain the same.

So a PLA is the same as the power it's named after.


These powers represent abilities unlocked from latency.

What is this supposed to prove?


All plural.

Which is relevant, how?

[Troacctid]

What is this supposed to prove?
That they are, in fact, multiple abilities, not just one.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That they are, in fact, multiple abilities, not just one.

Are you still trying to say that manifesting isn't a single PLA?

Because, not only did I quote text to you to demonstrate that this isn't the case, you yourself quoted a passage that said the same thing!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That they are, in fact, multiple abilities, not just one.False. The quote has been pushed forward multiple times that the manifesting of psionic powers by a manifester is a psi-like ability. One. It says outright in RAW.

[ColorBlindNinja]

False. The quote has been pushed forward multiple times that the manifesting of psionic powers by a manifester is a psi-like ability. One. It says outright in RAW.

I don't understand why she's still saying that. She herself quoted text that stated that manifesting is a single PLA!

[Troacctid]

False. The quote has been pushed forward multiple times that the manifesting of psionic powers by a manifester is a psi-like ability. One. It says outright in RAW.
I just quoted several passages saying it's multiple abilities. They are spell-like abilities that a creature generates from the power of its mind alone and they are manifested as psi-like abilities. So...where does that leave us?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I just quoted several passages saying it's multiple abilities. They are spell-like abilities that a creature generates from the power of its mind alone and they are manifested as psi-like abilities. So...where does that leave us?

They aren't mutually exclusive. Some creatures have individual PLAs, some have manifesting and some have both.

EDIT: But the rules are very clear that manifesting is one PLA.

[Troacctid]

They aren't mutually exclusive. Some creatures have individual PLAs, some have manifesting and some have both.
So there we are then. The ability to manifest powers in general is a PLA, and so are the individual powers themselves. Just like I said from the start.

[ColorBlindNinja]

So there we are then. The ability to manifest powers in general is a PLA, and so are the individual powers themselves. Just like I said from the start.

No, nothing you quoted implied the latter at all.

[Troacctid]

No, nothing you quoted implied the latter at all.
What about the part that said powers are manifested as psi-like abilities (plural)?

[ColorBlindNinja]

What about the part that said powers are manifested as psi-like abilities (plural)?

That's talking about creatures with PLAs of individual powers. Like a Mindflyer's PLAs.

[Crichton]

Truly sorry that you interpreted my attempt at civility and cordiality in our discussion as condescension. It was not meant as such in any way, and while you're right that we should be able to expect such civil discussions, a glance around the forums, even around this very thread's other participants, is enough to make me go out of my way to express my respect and gratitude for those who do discuss in a friendly, civil manner.



I can see that we clearly disagree on game balance ideology here, and that's ok. I realize that by focusing hard on the wording of the exact rules around WBL, I sound like I'm advocating a passive stance to balance. I'm not, but with this narrow focus of discussion, I can see why one would think so.


The fact remains that the rules in the DMG regarding WBL are explicitly derived from the treasure distribution rules, and the DMG repeatedly states how they came up with the numbers for it, and has multiple charts to illustrate how it is a result of how much treasure is distributed to players from encounters.




I highlighted it to point out that there is an expected relationship between wealth and experience beyond simple coincidence. Both are intrinsically tied to the actual power of the PC and if either is out of whack it can throw a character off of the expected power curve. Again, that's why it's in the section it's in.

True, there is an expected relationship between wealth and experience. That relationship is defined in the Behind the Curtains: Treasure Values sidebar on page 54. The relationship is clearly defined as an amount of treasure and experience per encounter a character should receive. The chart in that sidebar clearly shows that that relationship is X gp worth of treasure received per 13.33 encounters(each level).




Not "will have," not "recieves," but "should have." That's prescriptive, not descriptive language.

You fail to take in the context of the immediately preceding sentence:



Table 5–1: Character Wealth by Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters. Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on her level.

In other words, the table reflects how much wealth a character should have received as a sum of the encounters that got them to this level. That's really not prescriptive language at all.





These were given as examples of "expenses" and are not exhaustive. Buying the most appropriate gear you can after selling off the art objects, mundane gear, and unusable or inadequate magic items that do not contribute to any of the PC's power is also an expense. That it wasn't explicitly included in the examples doesn't negate that.


They're given as examples of the type of expenses a character is expected to spend the 13.7 percent difference between treasure received and expected wealth gain, as per the table on page 54. Mathematically it's impossible to expect that, at the 2 to 1 sell/buy ration for cost of equipment, a character will only lose 13.7 percent of the amount they receive when you're trying to include both the type of consumable they list as examples, and every piece of non-useful gear a character has to sell to purchase the gear they'll actually use. Take the level 5 values as an example. A character is expected to have received (based on the table on pg 54) 9998gp worth of treasure at the moment they break from 4th to 5th level, and their expected remaining wealth (both the table on pg 54 and the WBL table 5-1 on pg 135) should be 9000gp. Assuming they buy even just one or two basic cure potions or scrolls, they'll use up almost all of that 998gp difference. There's no way that is supposed to also include them selling 4000gp worth of gear to buy the 2000gp ring of protection you use as an example. The difference between the listed treasure distribution and the listed expected wealth does not include, then, the cost of selling off gear to buy more appropriate equipment.




My point is that the value of, for example, a ring of protection +1 is 2k gold, whether you've bought it, found it, or made it yourself. A measure of wealth -must- be taken against the -value- of the goods you have, rather than how much you spent on them. To do otherwise could have two characters of dramatically different power levels said to be at the same level of wealth, which is absurd.

Yes, the value of the item is 2k, regardless of how one acquired it. The rest of your statement is one of opinion, not one based on the actual language of the DMG rules on treasure distribution. It's a valid opinion, and probably a common one, but not one I share.




The guideline is telling the DM how much what they actually have -should- be worth, approximately.


Sorry, but that's untrue. It's quite explicitly not telling the DM what the value of what they actually have should be worth. As I've quoted and cited, the DMG here is telling the DM how much treasure should have been distributed to the characters, and the WBL chart, by the DMG's own description of it, is merely a sum of the amount each character should have received up to each level.


That's the thing you're missing; it is a guideline. If it was merely descriptive then there's nothing to interpret, much less interpret strictly, as the section explicitly advises.


It seems to me that you're taking the section heading on Character Power Levels and viewing everything through that lens.

I'm not advocating one way or another on how to enforce balance. I'm merely stating here what the DMG itself describes Table 5-1 as containing and how it says they arrived at those numbers, and what it says those numbers include(treasure received by characters from encounters), and thus don't include(value of what the characters currently have based on how they've used the treasure they've received).



When the party inevitably falls out of line with the guideline, and they will since there's too many variables for there to be any substantial chance of them not, it's up to the DM to adjust the amount of treasure present up or down as appropriate. This can be accomplished by using creatures with higher or lower treasure values or by putting "hidden" caches in the party's path, having them attacked by thieves or gear destroying monsters, etc and so on. That there is such a dramatic degree of variation in how much wealth the party can receive or lose as they progress through the campaign and because wealth translates directly to power through magic items, there is a -need- for a guideline on how much wealth they -should- have if the relationship between the party's level and the CR of various foes and obstacles is to have anything resembling a meaningful relationship.

I don't dispute that, and I think that because I've entirely not addressed that in these discussions, it may sound as though I'm advocating for something I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that Table 5-1 isn't that.



This is exactly the point of contention between us. To use it as an argument is circular reasoning. It's also, in my estimation, just plain wrong. A descriptive reading of the wealth by level guidelines divorces them from the section they're found in and makes them cease to be a guideline. The guideline is prescriptive.

I fail to see circular reasoning, as I'm not using it as an argument in any way. To say that the numbers in Table 5-1 aren't a description of how much treasure a character should have received is to completely ignore the several times the DMG describes what Table 5-1 is and how they got the numbers for it. To quote again:


Table 5–1: Character Wealth by Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters.




Certainly. They allow you to bypass the community gold piece limit in smaller settlements as long as there's enough liquid wealth in the community for crafting supplies. They allow you to get highly customized gear that would otherwise be very difficult to find. They do allow you to pickup gear earlier than you could otherwise afford it and temporarily surge ahead of the guideline until the DM compensates.

All of those, except that last one, are just restatements of what little value I said I saw in it, otherwise(compensating for a gear restrictive setting/DM). They might make it worth choosing a crafting feat over some other feat, but only in those types of circumstances. Feats are highly valuable and arguably the most limited resource a character has.




Then there's no relationship between wealth and power within the system. This is not only nonsensical on the face of it but in direct opposition to the guidelines' own text and placement within the chapter of the DMG. I'm sorry but I'm very sure you're mistaken about this.

You're misrepresenting my words here. I did not say there's no relationship between wealth and power. I said that in the rules, there's a relationship defined between XP and treasure distribution, but not a relationship defined in the rules between XP and gear value.






You give them the randomly determined treasures, monitor the actual wealth they have compared to what they should, and you adjust future treasure drops as necessary to keep them on-track. If you're a generous sort, you even hand select certain items from time to time and toss them to a player that wants/needs that particular thing more than another randomly generated painting or the 91st +1 longsword the table spat out.


Ok, I'll bite. To go along with your interpretation of things, let's look at a hypothetical example.

Your character has just reached level 5, and they have received approximately 9000gp worth of treasure (in line with WBL). But in order to get gear that's useful to them, they've had to sell 4000gp worth of items not applicable to them, in order to buy one useful item valued at 2000gp. So now your character's actual value of their actual gear is only 7000gp, which is 22% below WBL(and that's with just one such 2-1 trade!).

So are you advocating that the DM then compensate by giving them extra treasure during the level 5 encounters, so that instead of them receiving the prescribed 4000gp worth of treasure before they reach level 6, they instead receive 6000gp worth of treasure(50% above the amount of treasure they're supposed to receive during those 13.33 encounters at level 5), but the rest of the party members only receive the prescribed 4000gp worth?


I'm trying to see how this plays out, according to what you've said. But as I pointed out in my previous post, doing it this way puts our hypothetical character 22% below WBL (give or take, depending on how much they actually sell/buy, but I don't think my example values are uncommon or unreasonable. They're based on your example usage of a Ring of Protection)

Doing it that way ends up resulting in a low-wealth game, as I previously mentioned. And it most definitely doesn't result in a character having 9000gp worth of useful equipment, as pretty much all discussions on character building here at the playground presume.





As an addendum on the philosophy that crafting feats should not let a character exceed WBL-worth of gear value, I offer this argument from outside the 3.5 DMG: In updating and extending the 3.5 play system, the designers of the Pathfinder system explicitly wrote the crafting feat rules to allow crafting feats to do so, offering this advice to DMs for allowing it, but also maintaining game balance:


Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair , or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.


Emphasis mine

I leave this until last because it's from an outside source, and only tangentially related to our discussion of what the exact rules of treasure and WBL are in the DMG, and while I don't play Pathfinder, this example is telling in that the designers are aware that most of the point of a crafting feat is to extend the wealth of the one who chooses to take that feat instead of another, and that to remove that advantage negates most, if not all, the reasons to take the feat.




Edit: additionally, since I haven't stated my thoughts on balance, I personally think that while wealth is one factor in keeping players balanced, perhaps even a large factor, there are bigger concerns relating to how balanced the PCs are with one another. Largely, system mastery and optimization level. Wealth can absolutely play into that, as a component of optimization, but my personal stance is that the DM needs to actively and intentionally communicate and discuss their expectations for the PCs power levels with the players, and aid them in coming to an understanding of how a particular campaign at their particular table is gonna go. 3.5 is so full of beautifully broken loopholes and exploits that the DM pretty much has to take an active role in adjudicating what's acceptable at their table.