Planar shepherd help

[Ozzie831]

Hey there,

Im in a game with a guy who is fairly optimized and its kinda ruining it for the rest of the party. We just hit level 8 and he is basically a ranger that went master of many forms and transforms into a cave troll and destroys everything while the rest of the party attempts to survive because the DM sends super tough guys at us to deal with the cave troll that does 100 damage per round.....which is a lot vs people who have barely played the game.

So I looked for some op builds and came upon the planar shepherd. Seemed "simple" enough to grasp for someone who hasnt really played the game. But i can understand its brokeness. But the guides that i have found dont really suggest any particular race or feats besides like natures spell and the assume spell like ability feat or whatever its called.

That could be because the shepherd is so broken that it doesnt matter. On top of the fact that there really isnt any good wisdom classes besides that stupid anthropomorphic bat that im surprised is even a PC race that any DM race would allow in an actual game.

So i was hoping for some help making a build that can compete against this dude. I was thinking of using the region of dreams from the planes book. Since i can be anything i could ever want to be, also since it has the 10:1 time trick. Our group doesnt do experience so the no exp for the dream bubble isnt an issue. We just level after a major part in the story.

Thank you for any help. I typed this on a phone that is dying so if i missed something, i will fix it when i get home.

Our group allows all 3.5 books as well as dragon mags.

[Blackhawk748]

Well, firstly I'd talk to the DM about this, cuz stopping a dude who does 100 damage to one thing is easy: throw a bunch of little things at the party. A dozen or so mooks should do it.

As for Planar Sheppard advice... Ya, just taking the class is honestly enough. That class is busted

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Eggynack's Druid handbook here on the forum.

Druid is broken, shepherd takes it further.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Somebody needs to check that guy's sheet.

At level 8, cave troll isn't a form he can choose.

I'm also doubtful of 100+ damage at that level. It's -just- doable at that level with a full-on charger build and that's where your real problem likely lies, rather than with master of many forms. At least for now.

[Twurps]

So you have 1 guy at a very different level from the rest of the party, and you've already figured out that's a problem. Good for you so far.

But the sollution you come too is picking planar Shepherd? What's the next guy supposed to do? play pun-pun? Starting/continuing an 'arms race' is never a good sollution.
You choosing planar shepherd is NOT going to solve the problem because you're not bringing the group's power level closer together. You're very likely to make it even bigger. (if you figure out how to play it right, it might also turn into a bust). As a result, your DM is going to have to use even higher CR challenges because now he has to challenge a Cave troll AND a planar shepherd. Making the rest of the party fall even further behind.

Instead: have a talk with the DM and player(s) involved figure out at what power level you want to play. And if most of you are new, might I suggest finding a power level FAR below planar Shepherd.



At level 8, cave troll isn't a form he can choose.

Cave troll isn't accessible untill lvl9, but there are magical items that can 'help' with that issue. Not sure they fall in the WBL of a lvl8 character though.

[Crake]

I'm also doubtful of 100+ damage at that level. It's -just- doable at that level with a full-on charger build and that's where your real problem likely lies, rather than with master of many forms. At least for now.

Actually, if a stock standard cave troll hit with all of it's attacks it does, on average, 104.5 damage.

Two claws 2d6+12 (average 19, x2 = 38)
Rend if both claws hit 4d6+13 (average 27)
Bite 1d8+7 (average 11.5)
Two rakes 2d6+7 (average 14, x2 = 28)

38+27+11.5+28 = 104.5

How he's getting a 9HD form at level 8 I'm not sure about.

[Ozzie831]

Blackhawk748:
Yea that would be nice but the DM is like his best friend of like 20+ years. The DM has had several opportunities to kill him and never did. One time was so bad that a pair of summoned undead centaurs that were literally about to kill him "disappeared" right before the final swing.

Kelb_Panthera:
Actually he turned into a cave troll at level ELC 7. If I was to guess his progression he went ranger 5/MoMF 2 (All ACF are allowed so I believe it was the Predator ACF that gives rangers Wildshape). It should be possible to become a normal troll according to D20srd.org since they are a hit die of 6. A cave troll on the other hand has a hit die of 9. I dont think he has any magic items that allow him to do that but Im not 100%. Im also not sure if there are any feats that change it as well.

As for the damage portion, I did forget to mention that he had enlarge cast on him during the combat 2 different combat scenarios where he turned into a cave troll.

Twurps:
To be honest he only made this character specifically because he "rolled low" on his ability scores... If he had good rolls he would have made something far worse and has in other games. He has a character in different game that is basically god. So to answer your question, yes, picking the planar shepherd was my solution. He has been playing D&D since first edition. Everyone else in the party have barely ever played.

As I mentioned earlier in this reply, the DM is his best friend (this is also the DMs first campaign. Which he likes to bring a lot of 5e enemies). I bring up how powerful he is every time we have a combat scenario (he is also op outside of combat but not nearly as bad). We literally just went up against a CR17 wizard last week and managed to kill him because of the cave troll and a wizard (my girlfriend who literally has no idea what she is doing). Everyone else in our group could barely hit this wizard and after he cast shield no one in our group could even hit him unless we rolled a nat 20 (which none of us did). The cave troll on the other hand had like a 50/50 chance to hit.


Edit: Apparently he did get a Wild Shape Amulet at some point. Thus negating any reason on why he couldnt turn into a cave troll.

[Mike Miller]

Blackhawk748:
Yea that would be nice but the DM is like his best friend of like 20+ years. The DM has had several opportunities to kill him and never did. One time was so bad that a pair of summoned undead centaurs that were literally about to kill him "disappeared" right before the final swing.

Kelb_Panthera:
Actually he turned into a cave troll at level ELC 7. If I was to guess his progression he went ranger 5/MoMF 2. It should be possible to become a normal troll according to D20srd.org since they are a hit die of 6. A cave troll on the other hand has a hit die of 9. I dont think he has any magic items that allow him to do that but Im not 100%. Im also not sure if there are any feats that change it as well.

As for the damage portion, I did forget to mention that he had enlarge cast on him the 2 times that we were actually in combat.

Twurps:
To be honest he only made this character specifically because he "rolled low" on his ability scores... If he had good rolls he would have made something far worse and has in other games. He has a character in different game that is basically god. So to answer your question, yes, picking the planar shepherd was my solution. He has been playing D&D since first edition. Everyone else in the party have barely ever played.

As I mentioned earlier in this reply, the DM is his best friend (this is also the DMs first campaign. Which he likes to bring a lot of 5e enemies). I bring up how powerful he is every time we have a combat scenario (he is also op outside of combat but not nearly as bad). We literally just went up against a CR17 wizard last week and managed to kill him because of the cave troll and a wizard (my girlfriend who literally has no idea what she is doing). Everyone else in our group could barely hit this wizard and after he cast shield no one in our group could even hit him unless we rolled a nat 20 (which none of us did). The cave troll on the other hand had like a 50/50 chance to hit.

It sounds like the group has even more issues than have been addressed so far. How attached are you to the group? Could you find a new group that has a better mix of players and dm with more even experience and expectations? No competent DM would have a level 17 wizard die to a bunch of level 8 PCs... And really what circumstances should a group of level 8s be going up against a wizard 17 other than a high optimization game? This clearly is not a high-op group.

[Blackhawk748]

Red flag! Red flag!!

Leave. No, seriously, leave. That kind of favoritism is not cool and will only lead to more pain and annoyance

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, if a stock standard cave troll hit with all of it's attacks it does, on average, 104.5 damage.

Two claws 2d6+12 (average 19, x2 = 38)
Rend if both claws hit 4d6+13 (average 27)
Bite 1d8+7 (average 11.5)
Two rakes 2d6+7 (average 14, x2 = 28)

38+27+11.5+28 = 104.5

How he's getting a 9HD form at level 8 I'm not sure about.

That's only if -all- of his attacks hit and raking requires a successful grapple. Lots of space for that to go wrong.

Note also that part of that damage in the stat block for a cave troll comes from use of power attack. The player in question would have to both have it (likely) and use the same -3 penalty (less likely).

[Crake]

That's only if -all- of his attacks hit and raking requires a successful grapple. Lots of space for that to go wrong.

Note also that part of that damage in the stat block for a cave troll comes from use of power attack. The player in question would have to both have it (likely) and use the same -3 penalty (less likely).

Or pounce, which cave trolls get, and while statistically improbable, it is possible to hit all of the attacks on a charge, which is likely the time it stuck in OP's mind. As for power attack usage, I can't speak to that, but it is at least possible to hit for 100+ damage, 29 base strength will do that to you.

That said, much of the rest of the things brought up make it sound like this game is mostly about wish fulfilment between the DM and the ranger, getting a chance to play all the broken things other DMs wouldn't allow, or were capable of dealing with in a non-disruptive manner.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Or pounce, which cave trolls get, and while statistically improbable, it is possible to hit all of the attacks on a charge, which is likely the time it stuck in OP's mind. As for power attack usage, I can't speak to that, but it is at least possible to hit for 100+ damage, 29 base strength will do that to you.

The pounce clause releases the rakes from the requirement that the creature has started the round already grappling, not the requirement that you be in a grapple to rake.

100+ damage without that extra 15 from PA seems kinda dicey even if all attacks hit. It's probably moot since he'd be a fool to not have power attack but it is what it is. I suspect a crit is the more likely culprit though.


That said, much of the rest of the things brought up make it sound like this game is mostly about wish fulfilment between the DM and the ranger, getting a chance to play all the broken things other DMs wouldn't allow, or were capable of dealing with in a non-disruptive manner.

That does seem a bigger issue.