Thread for re-CR-ing monsters?

[magic9mushroom]

I noticed the thread for re-LA-ing monsters. Is there such a thread - here or anywhere else - for re-CR-ing monsters which have poor CRs?

If there isn't, ought there to be?

(I've been curious about whether the Wyrmling Prismatic Dragon is under-CRed at 14 for a couple of days now, but I haven't been able to find anything on the 'net addressing it. I found Vorpal Tribble's formula which suggests CR 18, but it also suggests 19-20 for the similar Neothelid which seems a bit off.)

[HouseRules]

Or we could entirely drop CR from the Game, and use ECL instead. Of course, that means all encounters requires equal sized party to prevent focus fire asymmetry.

[EldritchWeaver]

Dragons have been deliberately under-CRed by a factor of 1.5, so they seem more powerful if you encounter them. Yep, they dupe GMs...

[HouseRules]

Even if Dragons are under CRed, they are still not the strongest creature for their CR.

[Mike Miller]

I noticed the thread for re-LA-ing monsters. Is there such a thread - here or anywhere else - for re-CR-ing monsters which have poor CRs?

If there isn't, ought there to be?

(I've been curious about whether the Wyrmling Prismatic Dragon is under-CRed at 14 for a couple of days now, but I haven't been able to find anything on the 'net addressing it. I found Vorpal Tribble's formula which suggests CR 18, but it also suggests 19-20 for the similar Neothelid which seems a bit off.)

Sounds like you have a project to start....

[Elkad]

Even if Dragons are under CRed, they are still not the strongest creature for their CR.

If you pick and choose a specific creature at each CR (and maybe alter that selection based on your party makeup), probably true.

But a dragon is basically always under-CRed. It'll be competitive for whatever you pick at any CR.

Just to take one example. That Damned Crab - a massive winner in the CR3 bracket.
If it loses initiative, the equal-CRed dragon takes flight and wins.
If it wins (and is in charge range), the dragon has a 40-60% chance of winning. Either the crab misses, or it fails to grapple, and again the dragon takes flight and wins.

Take flight out and individual dragon types have a chance still. Slow gas breath, spiderclimb, faster swim speed, burrow, etc. It looks bad for the dragon, but he's not out of the fight.

[zlefin]

It would'nt hurt; but I'd say people are'nt doing it because it's a lower priority project, and the cr numbers (on the whole) are decent enough. the problem with LA was that it was notoriously overpriced. with CR, sure there's a few errors here and there, but a lot of stuff is about right.

[HouseRules]

It would'nt hurt; but I'd say people are'nt doing it because it's a lower priority project, and the cr numbers (on the whole) are decent enough. the problem with LA was that it was notoriously overpriced. with CR, sure there's a few errors here and there, but a lot of stuff is about right.

The recommendation for monster improvement is "double power = +1 CR".

[zlefin]

The recommendation for monster improvement is "double power = +1 CR".

I'm not clear on what your point is.

[HouseRules]

Double power = +2 Encounter Level
Double power = +1 Challenge Rating

In other words, improving a single creature give less increase to challenge, but more difficult encounter.

Four times the power = +4 EL.
Four times the power = +2 CR.

Eight times the power = +6 EL.
Eight times the power = +3 CR.

Sixteen times the power = +8 EL.
Sixteen times the power = +4 CR.

Thirty-Two times the power = +10 EL.
Thirty-Two times the power = +5 CR.

The Encounter Level of a Single Creature = Its Challenge Rating.
Y + X = Y + 2X for all X > 0
1 = 2 is a mathematical truth in D&D
2 = 4 is also another mathematical truth in D&D
4 = 8 is another.

[Zaq]

I'd be in favor of such a project, but it's a really drastic undertaking. CR is honestly pretty damn borked most of the time, and the EL system is even worse. Having usable CRs would be really helpful overall, but be prepared for a fair bit of squabbling. After all, if the LA-assignment project often has difficulty comparing a monster to a single PC, comparing a monster to 4-6 PCs (some of whom are expected to be casters and some of whom are expected to not be casters, with all the horrible balance concerns that implies) is going to be even harder.

So yeah. It'd be a useful project if you or another interested party were to take it on, but I expect it to be pretty dang hard.

[zlefin]

Double power = +2 Encounter Level
Double power = +1 Challenge Rating

In other words, improving a single creature give less increase to challenge, but more difficult encounter.

Four times the power = +4 EL.
Four times the power = +2 CR.

Eight times the power = +6 EL.
Eight times the power = +3 CR.

Sixteen times the power = +8 EL.
Sixteen times the power = +4 CR.

Thirty-Two times the power = +10 EL.
Thirty-Two times the power = +5 CR.

The Encounter Level of a Single Creature = Its Challenge Rating.
Y + X = Y + 2X for all X > 0
1 = 2 is a mathematical truth in D&D
2 = 4 is also another mathematical truth in D&D
4 = 8 is another.

where are you getting the stats for this? can you cite specifically?
and what do you mean by "eight times the power"
and at any rate; last I checked, eight times the power (or more precisely, 8 times as many of the same foe) is +6 EL AND +6CR
i.e. encounter level and cr go up at the same rate.

[Blue Jay]

It would'nt hurt; but I'd say people are'nt doing it because it's a lower priority project, and the cr numbers (on the whole) are decent enough. the problem with LA was that it was notoriously overpriced. with CR, sure there's a few errors here and there, but a lot of stuff is about right.

I also think people don't expect as much precision from CRs. They're not normally part of the optimization process, and you're always facing a range of CRs in the game, anyway. So, it's not an immediate concern in the player's minds, and most of the time, they probably won't really notice if the CR is up or down a point from where it should be.

[AMX]

Well, there was this old thread:
That's only CR 9? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187046-That-s-ONLY-CR-9-Let-s-Read-The-Monster-Manual-II)

[Silva Stormrage]

Here is a good list of some unbalanced monsters,

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-(or-so)

[Mike Miller]

One problem is deciding what party to compare the enemy against. Also, what level of optimization. I would say a party of wizard, cleric, fighter, and rogue would be the "standard." However, another good group would probably be wizard, cleric, warblade, and swordsage. Many other possibilities, too. Tough calls

[HouseRules]

A party of 4 Commoners is the baseline. Everything must be better.

[zlefin]

A party of 4 Commoners is the baseline. Everything must be better.

i'm still interested in a clarification of the issue from our prior discussion a few posts up.

[inuyasha]

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR

This has pretty much never failed me in determining Challenge Rating, but it'll be sometimes one point off for Pathfinder monsters (which isn't that big of a deal anyway). I've been using it for ages, and I really hope it helps anyone here out :smallsmile:

[magic9mushroom]

Sounds like you have a project to start....
I could administrate such a thread, but I can't say I have much experience with assigning CRs. I'd need a lot of help.





This has pretty much never failed me in determining Challenge Rating, but it'll be sometimes one point off for Pathfinder monsters (which isn't that big of a deal anyway). I've been using it for ages, and I really hope it helps anyone here out :smallsmile:
Ahem.

(I've been curious about whether the Wyrmling Prismatic Dragon is under-CRed at 14 for a couple of days now, but I haven't been able to find anything on the 'net addressing it. I found Vorpal Tribble's formula which suggests CR 18, but it also suggests 19-20 for the similar Neothelid which seems a bit off.)

[inuyasha]

Oh heck, my mind skipped over that entirely. Sorry about that!

[HouseRules]

How about a reverse same game test to assign the CR.


Levels 1-4 5-8 9-12 13-16 17-20
Tier 1 85%-95% 75%-85% 65%-75% 55%-65% 45%-55%
Tier 2 75%-85% 65%-75% 55%-65% 45%-55% 35%-45%
Tier 3 65%-75% 55%-65% 45%-55% 35%-45% 25%-35%
Tier 4 55%-65% 45%-55% 35%-45% 25%-35% 15%-25%
Tier 5 45%-55% 35%-45% 25%-35% 15%-25% 5%-15%
Tier 6 35%-45% 25%-35% 15%-25% 5%-15% 0%-5%


Tiers are obvious. Now the percentage is the chance that PC would will, or Monster would lose.

One Monster vs Party of 4 = 20% resource.
One Monster vs Party of 1 = 80% resource = 40% chance monster wins and 60% chance Party of 1 would win.

[OgresAreCute]

The only gripe I have with Vorpal Tribble's calculator is that it doesn't take into account accuracy or damage output, only special attacks. Sometimes you might want to have a highly damaging creature that is comparatively weak defensively, and then you basically have to ballpark the CR since you don't need to have many special attacks to deal a lot of damage.