MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

[Grey_Wolf_c]

WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for

ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
This thread has, over the last 500+ pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous ones) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first five posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.


For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1
For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2
To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3
Thread rules and FAQ, check section 4

If you want to propose a new creature, consider using the following question template:

1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?



Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words on MitD
I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now

So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.

I was able explore the idea that the monster itself isn’t really aware of all of its capabilities. In #374, it tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails.

Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
"It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.
"someone will figure it out": related to the above, it specifies that what Rich means by "guess" is not "throwing darts while blindfolded" type of guess, but a rational, follow the clues to a conclusion process. "A potted plant that was eaten and spat out by the Snarl, giving it eyes, a horrible appearance, great strength and the ability to teleport, and look, it can be guessed- I just did!" might fit the first meaning, but not the second.

Rich's Words on Fidelity to D&D Rules
I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.

Notes:

Rich has made mistakes with the powers a character can have (Tsukiko's extra school), but has admitted they are mistakes. The fact he admits it is one, in addition to this quote, indicates that Rich does not routinely give characters powers they wouldn't normally have. In addition, MitD's guessing game would require him to be more careful, not less, about what abilities and powers it displays, such as immunity to mind control.

Published Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:

Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males (RightEye and his oldest son) are unimpressed

RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:


I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.

Xykon's first look at MitD:

:xykon: "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"

Xykon's wording of the mind-controlling spell on MitD:

:xykon: "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."

Nature of the darkness around MitD:

Xykon: Did you see him yet?
RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?


Section 1b: The Circus SceneThe circus scene is, as befits the most MitD-centric moment in the comic, full of clues:
The public's reactions: note they are not fear, but disgust. Vomiting, queasy faces and exclamations of ugliness do not match reactions of people scared (that would be brown pants, yellow pools under the stands, and attempts to run away).
MitD's Actions: none. it is quite explicitly told he is doing nothing. Activated abilities thus are unlikely to explain this scene
Recognition: The show depends on MitD not being recognisable (billed as such), and this aspect reinforced with the guy in robes saying he's never seen anything like MitD before.
Section 1c: The Escape
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html).
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subjects of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O'Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) cast by V during the preceding battle.
In the Scruf and Tumble short story (in GDGU), the carbuncle befriended by Mr. Scruffy teleported (likely with a SU-type Dimension Door (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/carbuncle/)) him without going along, suggesting that at least Dimension Door in OotS doesn't require the caster to go along
Alternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
MitD could have the ability to grant Greater Teleport or its equivalent to its target, rather than cast it himself, thus leading to V or O-Chul casting it to get them out of there (although O-Chul wouldn't know where to take them anymore than MitD would, and it seems unlikely MitD would target V with that ability)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and thier gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)
Psionics has equivalent teleportation abilities to all of the above. DaggerPen compiled a fairly complete list here.
Creatures who have the ability might have captured Ganonron after he was expelled from V, and forced him to cast the teleport (other than being theoretically possible, no monster has been found capable of doing so other than the Parshendi that came out in 2014, and there is no evidence that this scenario took place)
Selecting the Destination: Wish and Miracle have no issues with the destination of the escape. Teleport and Greater Teleport, on the other hand, do not easily explain how MitD was able to send them to a place he does not know about (teleport can only target places, not individuals). Possibilities:
MitD also used some form of Trace Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm) to send them to where V came from
MitD "rolled" on the Mishap table due to False destination, and got 'Similar Area', which placed them in the right place


Section 1d: The Tower Scene
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)
It is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here, here and here.

Section 1e: MitD's Alignment
The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.

This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html). As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.

The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:

It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.


The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).

From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:



Lawful Evil: Baatezu/Devils
Lawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, Modrons
Lawful Good: Archons


Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/Daemons
True Neutral: Rilmani
Neutral Good: Guardinals


Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/Demons
Chaotic Neutral: Slaadi
Chaotic Good: Eladrin



Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.
Section 1f: MitD's ScoresIt has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).

However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).
Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates
MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.

Alternatively, it has been proposed that since the demiplane in which the Snarl is trapped is designed to null divine magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and it is third-handedly established in SoD that the gods have difficulty in detecting the rifts, there might be some connection between MitD and the gods that makes him, too, unaware of the rift. Note, however, that MitD has an issue seeing the definitely-not-Snarl-related gate that Xykon installed to stop his zombies from walking into and being destroyed by the rift, so this connection is quite far-fetched.

Finally, it must be pointed out that MitD doesn't have a problem actually seeing the physical object that is the gate. Instead, his words seem to suggest that he doesn't know it is one. It has been suggested this might be because he thinks the only definition of "gate" is the portal that opens when the spell gate is cast. If he has been told that is a gate (and he probably had seen the spell before, when he previously saw the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)), he would be confused as to why he can't see one near the massive wooden thing Xykon and RC keep pointing at.
Section 1h: Recognising MitD (in-comic)There have been two alternative explanations for the Hunter's + Circus scene and the differing reactions to MitD when looked at.

On one hand, the Hunter's scene can be seen as a lampshade hanging of MitD's ability to talk, i.e. an express admission of Rich that he shouldn't, just to get it over with and ignored thereafter. The hunters see a creature that is rare, powerful, strangely non-threatening and decide to sell it. They mention it talks, and from then on Rich need not keep pointing out this fact. The circus scene builds on this, letting us know MitD is revolting to look at (or smelled, or some other passive characteristic).

On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.
Section 1i: Recognising MitD (by readers)Some people have argued that the MitD must be easily recognized because they feel it would detract from the eventual reveal if the readers cannot immediately identify its species (usually, this is countered by the argument that the reveal will likely be a dramatic moment for MitD which, while it might require a specific ability, will not be centered upon MitD's species, but his growth as a character).

Other people have argued that the MitD cannot be easily-recognized because it seems unlikely that Rich would select something easily guessable when part of the purpose of MitD was to provide a challenge to what, at the time, was a very D&D-centric readership. Faced with such an audience, Rich, they argue, would likely go for a challenging creature that would keep them (us) guessing for years to come.

Finally, some more people think that the fame of the creature is irrelevant, because nothing in Rich's words suggest that he must be famous or must be obscure and thus, unless he chooses to clarify, it is not a demonstrable characteristic upon which to build a hypothesis.
Section 1j: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escapeWhy wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.
Section 1k: The meaning of Fine LineFor a wide variety of reasons, a number of participants feel that the "fine line" comment is meant to be a clue about MitD's authorship:

I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one
The reasoning goes that the phrase itself is unnecesary, the general understanding of it (i.e. Rich didn't create MitD) is addressed well enough in the context, and thus the retreading of the point actually hints to something not quite so clear cut - usually interpreted that Rich did have a hand in MitD's creation (because he helped craft the manual it is in, for example) or because he created it, but not for OotS.

On a strictly logical way, it is true that the sentence is somewhat redundant in context. However, it is also Rich's way of admitting that, to most of his readers, his assurance that he personally didn't create MitD is a cop-out since when MitD is revealed, he might as well have - the line he intends to draw between fantasy monsters created by him and others is fine indeed.

As a practical matter, even if the above interpretation is correct, and it is a subtle hint that Rich did in fact create MitD is some indirect way, it has never as a theory born fruit. To date no creatures have been brought forth with "partially authored by Rich" as a point in their favour.
Section 1l: MitD's Hand in #555?Unfortunately, what we see in Panel 1 in strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not MitD's hand, but the bucket's handle

Version History

1 - MitD - What We Know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?114313)
2 - MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134194)
3 - MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156178)
4 - MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189676)
5 - MitD V: MitD and the Templates of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?231404)
6 - MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253731)
7 - MitD 007: GoldenEyes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293047)
8 - MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347800)
9 - Summon MitD IX: Roll in Section 3a (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488773)
10 - MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494708)
11 - MitD XI: A Good Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563198)
12 - MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.

From his keeper's comments about how long he has been fed stew every day, we know MitD spent more than five years in the circus.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1a SoD Canon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".
Oona the Beastmaster compares him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) to a creature out of a spicy meat-induced nightmare, although she also calls him magnificent.

It has been suggested it could be because in 1st edition, an evil creature with CHA -1 had the same CHAR bonus as a good one with CHA 24
BodyRedCloak suggests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
MitD's ability to laugh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) indicates he has lungs
DietMitD is almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:

He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)

GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O'Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
Head

Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other. They are consistently drawn as larger than those of medium-sized creatures, closer to that of ogres (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) (while still being more or less at medium-sized height, but he might be crouched under the umbrella)
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD). It must be rather large, since Xykon instructs him to "devour [RedCloak] whole"
Olfactory organ: smells by sniffing while holding the bag close to below his two eyes (but could be his mouth, rather than a nose)
Teeth: munches its food. And its voice is deformed while speaking with its mouth full


LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).

Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.

He is capable of holding a bucket of paint and a brush on opposite sides of his face, suggesting he probably has two symmetrical prehensile appendages.

In the Earthquake scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), the stomp suggests he is either bipedal and crouched over, or quadrupedal.

Finally, what is visible in Panel 1 of strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not a limb, but the bucket's handle.
MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:

Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.
Rich is unlikely to have him be too young - he dislikes the idea of creatures with the personality of a 4 year old having an alignment. MitD acts more like a 12 year old.

Personal Odor MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesn't affect the public until after he is lighted up.
It has been suggested that MitD's personal smell could be a hint towards the Stench (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) ability
SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large). He is also shorter than Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html), who is Medium (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) sized.
Take into account:

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries), but to this date he has only made small creatures larger, never larger ones smaller than they should be.
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He's probably taller than a kobold:

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)

SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).
WeightRC was able to lift both MitD and his box onto a cart. This is almost certainly an exaggeration of RC's lifting ability for the purposes of moving the plot forwards, but a detailed examination of the issue was attempted starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13829249#post13829249). The conclusion reached is that if Rich wasn't bending the rules, and if the box was made of a light wood (such as pine), and RC was using a spell to boost his strength [Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) gives +6], and he has average or slightly above average strength for a goblin (he is unlikely to have more than that, since he is a pure caster), MitD's weight should be that of a medium creature, tops. (See my numbers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13842268&postcount=102))

Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower in nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into account:

If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into account:

It could indicate piercing/slashing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:

Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense such as Wreck Earth (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/wrack-earth--2982/)

KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O'Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
His right-on-the-money Political Analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)
O'Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O'Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:

Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O'Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D

Take into account:

MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)
It has been pointed out that if it were a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not an extraordinary, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, nor a psionic power). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
Take into account:

Most psionics featured in the comic (goblin mind reader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), the story of the little psion that could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html) and a guest appearance in SSaDT), had a purplish aura around their entire heads. However, Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) has a yellow aura. In both cases, though, the aura surrounds the entire head, where MitD, at best, illuminates his eyes briefly.
During the Go game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html), his turn starts and end, and yet we don't see him place a counter. Rich may have skipped the dialogue where MitD told O'Chul were to place his counter just to reduce the wordiness of that page, though. There is also no psionic effect line like the ones radiating from Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html)
MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)
The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) in the same way

RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O'Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.
SightMitD's sight is keen enough to be able to recognise Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) on top of a dragon a catapult-max-range away, without the benefit of a telescope
SpeechThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)

This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.
Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.
Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).

It has been pointed out that MitD's speech bubbles are black text on white background, unlike demons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), who tend to have red-on-black and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html), who tend to have white-on-black. However, there is one demon who has a normal voice, Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), so it is probably not a good indicator of species. Rich has confirmed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14733452&postcount=190) that voice "colour" can mislead.
ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.
Summoning Demon RoachesMitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.
Swallow Whole?In SoD, Xykon orders a mind controlled MitD to devour whole RC if RC double-crosses Xykon. This might indicate that MitD has a swallow whole ability.
Take in account:
Xykon uses the word devour, not swallow, which allows MitD to chew.
Xykon had only just met MitD, and since he isn't interested in reading, he probably would not know what MitD is precisely. Nevertheless, something about MitD (probably a big mouth or similar) suggested to Xykon that MitD would be able to carry out the order.


Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following without being an exception to the listed characteristic:

Not a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Elemental (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Ooze (has a body)
Not Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
Not Vermin (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)

Several people have remarked that Oona's knowledge of MitD makes it unlikely he is an Outsider - but Oona may have better-than-average knowledge skills from her extended familiarity with Kraagor's Tomb.


Challenge Rating
Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
See also lothos' analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR

Connection to the Astral PlaneMitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).
Considerations:

He doesn't remember having been there
Xykon is surprised at this
It could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the past
In the past, it displayed extreme ignorance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) of the planes

DarknessAs per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind).
Note that D&D rules for line of sight allow for creatures at the edge of magical darkness to see out of it, while remaining concealed.
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)

Since he can turn his eyes around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) (panel 11) without turning his entire body, it is possible that MitD has a neck or similar (such as eyestalks) that can move independently of the rest of the body.

Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:

MitD could have been "adopted" (or even created) by a member of another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment. If this adoptive parent is of a different alignment from MitD's base species, it could explain MitD's conflict between good and evil.
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only a few individuals have claimed to know what he is:

The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters (SoD) knew he was "one of those" and that it was surprising he could talk (and in common, even)
RedCloak (SoD) stated he knew what MitD is
Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) compared him to a majestic monster comparable to a kebab-induced nightmare, but smaller than he could be
O-Chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html), after his long imprisonment and friendship with MitD, still needed the help of the most knowledgeable scribe available to the Azurites, and even after that, he only has "a theory" (which he does not think Lien or MitD would believe).
MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is, but it's likely Xykon only cares about MitD's strength and looks, rather than detailed knowledge of what MitD can do
What looks like a wizard (SoD) in the circus audience admits he'd never seen anything like it.


It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.
Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.
ReachMitD cannot reach stew or meat left outside his box, but can reach the doors in Kraagor's wall enough to paint them, suggesting his reach is based on free movement rather than long appendages or telekinesis.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.
TracksMitD leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker, and even if he wasn't, MitD might have been carrying table, chairs, stuffed animals and a paralized O-Chul at the time, which might have obscured the tracks). However, he leaves no tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) in the snow. The following possibilities have been suggested as an explanation:

He floats/flies
He has some form of permanent pass without trace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passWithoutTrace.htm) or water walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm) (note that despite its name, it works on plenty of non-water surfaces, including snow and lava)
The umbrella hides the tracks, in the same way it hides MitD's limbs even when they should be visible (e.g. around the handle) (i.e. it's part of the "we don't get to see any part of MitD until the reveal)


Section 2d: Abilities Augmentation: Templates, Class Levels, etc.A number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed. All of them have the same general problem: they likely violate Rich's assurance that he didn't invent MitD and that it can be figure out. To illustrate these issues, consider two examples:
BingosaurusThe argument most commonly cited in favour of augmentations is that it is not a Rich creation if Rich merely uses already existing rules to create MitD, such as adding tempaltes, feats, class levels, etc. But there are rules for making your own monsters, spells, etc.

Nothing is stopping Rich from making what is for all intents and purposes a Bingosaurus* complete with an insatiable hunger for stew and yellow eyes, using rules that were published prior to comic #100. He will then furnish it with Bingo's epic earthquake (which functions like a regular earthquake except it is much more awesome and can be aimed in a direction), Wish and Bingo's Commanding You To Stop ability, DC100, at will

*Named after Lord Bingo, original proponent of this counterexample.
Binks' Mystery SwordRelated to the above, the second most common argument in favour of augmentations is that since the rules exist, it can be figured out. By the same logic, a DM could hand a character a custom magic item like Binks' Mystery Sword* and not tell his player what it does because the DM didn't invent it, instead followed the rules, so clearly the player can figure out what it does on his own.

*Named after Binks, original proponent of this counterexample.

The augmentation ideas presented so far are:
FeatsWhen a creature is promoted beyond its base CR, with every 3 HD added, the DM can also add a feat. Of interest to this thread are the two following feats:

Mighty Roar: allows a creature, once per day, to make a dreadful roar that renders everyone nearby shaken for x rounds. Pre-requisite: be an animal or magical beast of at least large size.
Stamp: allows a creature to make a shockwave with a radius of a number of squares equal to their HD. Creatures within the radius that fail a balance check vs the stamper's attack roll are knocked down; structures are also damaged by the shockwave, which could explain the ground being torn up if one is generous with the definition of 'structure'. Prerequisites: have feet, be at least huge size, and have the trample attack.

Cons:

No Wish feat
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact number of extra HD added by "the DM" is not really guessable.
Size issues: MitD is likely Medium sized; while large is possible, huge is likely too big.
MitD is clearly lazy, and thus has little canon support for the idea that he has developed beyond the average of his species (quite the opposite, in fact). His father being bigger than he is also argues against this (more HD eventually makes the monster bigger).


Templated/Mixed lineage Creature
In D&D, a template is not a creature, but rather a number of changes that can be made to any creature meeting the requirements. The changes usually are around a theme. For example, the half-dragon template (applied to creatures with partial draconic parentage) make the creature more draconic, giving it a breath weapon, claws, a bite attack, and some draconic immunities, along with making the creature physically and mentally stronger.

Some templates function more generally, the fiendish template, for example, is used to create races of fauna native to the lower planes, and never originally were the base creature, but instead are a separate (but similar) species. Therefore, not all templates are once-in-a-lifetime combinations fluff-wise (although a half-fiend, half-celestial, half-red, half-blue, half-green, half-silver, fiendish living fireball could hardly be considered anything but a once-in-a-lifetime combination).

More practically, templates can provide practically every ability the MitD has demonstrated (teleportation, strange appearance, physical defenses, great strength, etc). Due to the ability of templates to make practically anything the MitD, this thread has moved away from analyzing specific monster template combinations (of which there are many), and instead will evaluate templates alone as what they could contribute (if there is a published example of a creature with a template, it can be proposed as a creature).

However, templates, like all augmentation, has its drawbacks:

No Wish template before strip #100 (Amidah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16766329&postcount=994) and other Immortal's Handbook variants came out later)
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Unless the exact combination of templates and base creature has been used elsewhere, it can be argued that an original template stack would be a Rich invention.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these" (although not all templates require mixed parentage)
No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents (although not all templates require mixed parentage)


Below is a list of templates that can provide abilities the MitD has demonstrated.
Beast of Xvim (Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn)
Summary: A monster blessed by Xvim (and evil god in Forgotten Realms). While it doesn't give any abilities that make it a good candidate to be the MitD, it has a Feed ability similar to that of the Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (only increases HD, but the HD increase is uncapped). See the entry on Phrenic Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) for how this is useful. The fluff would need to be redone, as Xvim does not exist in OoTSverse, although the Dark One could be a suitable replacement. Has moderate DR that might be able to explain tower scene defenses, although on its own it cannot explain any other scene.

Advances HD by 1 automatically, gains an additional HD per 8 HD of humanoids slain and eaten.
Makes explicit mention of glowing green eyes. The eyes of the MitD glow yellow. With the adaptation to a different god, arguably the appearance like this could be altered.
In any case, there would be some alteration (which could violate the "not Rich's creation" rule) to make a Beast of Xvim without Xvim.
Gives moderate DR (scaled on HD, /+1, +2, or +3, so unclear what would overcome it after upgrade, which could explain tower scene defense.
Can be applied to any creature, although Xvim prefers "bats, black dogs, black cats, hawks, and vultures, or in monsters such as beholders, green or blue dragons, hell hounds, cockatrices, imps, dark nagas, and undead creatures."

Dungeonbred (Dungeonscape)
Summary: Creature was raised in a dungeon and is smaller than normal. Applied to corporeal aberration, animal, magical beast, or vermin. Makes the creature slightly weaker physically. Doesn't explain any scene, but can allow the MitD to fit in the box or under the umbrella.

Rich was involved in the creation of Dungeonscape, therefore could be his creation, no real way to figure out.
Essentially gives -4 Strength, so it is harder to fit the tower scene.
Eats less than a normal member of his race, as the MitD eats a lot, not all that good a fit.

Fiendish Creature (SRD/MMI) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)
Summary: Like normal creature, but native to lower planes. Gets DR/magic, energy resistance, SR, and Smite Good, all scaled with HD. Always evil. Doesn't explain any scenes, although the DR arguably could help provide defenses for Tower Scene (although it is at most 10/magic, so not unlikely Milko would overcome it). Can be applied to corporeal nongood aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants, or vermin. Animals and vermin become magical beasts.

Half-Dragon (SRD, MMI, various other books) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)
Summary: Applied to any corporeal living creature to make it more draconic. Gets breath, claws, bite, and some draconic immunities (paralysis, sleep). Also gets wings if large or larger. Big bonus to Strength (+8), small bonuses (+2) to Con, Int, and Cha. There is a type of half-dragon for practically each type of true dragon, although none of them really do much. The +8 Str means if the base creature's strength is ≥22, it'd have get sufficient tower scene offensive, but other than that, the template doesn't generally help much (there are a bunch of types, it is possible one of them adds something else, if so, bring it up).

Half-Elemental (Manual of the Planes)
Summary: Creature has various elemental traits. Doesn't change appearance much (minor elemental themed things, like an half-earth elemental might get gemstone eyes. Gives a number of SLAs based on HD, none of which really are useful (with the exception of half-earth, which gives earthquake at 13 HD, and could explain the stomp scene). Earth and Water give minor boosts to strength. Can be applied to any corporeal creature with an Int of 4+. Changes type to outsider, gives appropriate elemental subtype. With the exception of the strength boost (+4 and +2 for earth and water respectively), doesn't allow creatures to explain the big scenes, although Half-earth can explain the the stomp with earthquake.

Half-Troll (Fiend Folio)
Summary: Boosts strength, gives a bit of fast healing, bite attack, claw attacks. Can be added to any animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider, and changes type to giant. Strength boost (+6) lowers the required strength of the base creature (with this template) to explain the tower scene to 24. The fast healing (5) arguably could explain the tower scene defense, although somewhat dubious. The changing type away from outsider allows lots of template stacking, if one so desires. Furthermore, half-trolls are pretty ugly, which could explain the circus scene (but what kind of wizard hasn't heard of trolls?).

Monster of Legend (MMII)
Summary: An animal, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid has a divinely appointed task, and special powers to back it up in accomplishing said task. Changes type to outsider (native). They are unique, so all those things kind of make the (seemingly purposeless and lazy) MitD not seem to fit. The template increases physical strength (+10), and can give fast heal 5 and DR 10/+1 as well, which arguably could explain the escape scene (the strength boost certainly helps, although the fast healing and DR is rather on the low end). Nothing to explain escape. Can get frightful presence, which could explain circus scene, although it is triggered by making "a loud sound (a roar, growl, or other sound appropriate to its form)," hardly what the MitD did.

Paragon Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)
Summary: Generally makes the creature stronger, better faster. Gives fast healing and DR which can explain the tower scene. Boosts ability scores, attacks, damage, AC, saves, skill checks which can qualify an otherwise weaker monster (ex: Genie) as a threat to a near epic-level party. Does not change physical appearance or grant teleportation ability, so cannot explain escape or circus scene. Does not change creature type. Can be added to anything.

+15 Strength allows any base creature with Strength ≥15 meet strength requirement for tower scene offense.
Fast healing 20, DR 10/epic, maximized HP, +15 Con, and +12 HP/HD on top of that (along with +12 luck and +12 insight bonus to AC) can explain the defenses in the tower scene for pretty much anything.
The +25 luck bonus to hit and +20 luck bonus to damage could be argued to be a cause for the MitD "accidentally" hitting a horse through the wall.
There is no real evidence of the MitD being exceptionally competent for a member of his species. In fact, Team Evil seems to think of him as sort of a disappointment. Without saying the MitD is exceptional, there is no real way to convey it is Paragon.

Phrenic Creature (SRD/Expanded Psionics Handbook) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm)
Summary: The creature happens to be psionic. It can be applied to any not mindless creature that doesn't already have the psionic subtype. It provides various PLAs (Psi-like abilities) based off HD. The important thing for the MitD is psionic teleport 3/day (just like normal teleport, but psionic) at 15+ HD, which can explain the escape scene. It does not say it alters appearance (although larger than normal brains is a common trait to denote psionic ability), but probably cannot explain the circus scene, and provides no boosts to physical attack or defense to explain the tower scene.

Gives PLAs, ML=HD. At 15 HD, gives psionic teleport 3/day which serves as an adequate explanation (likely arriving at a "similar area", possibly the MitD originally had a false destination making it more likely.
It has been argued the MitD's eyes glowing with the Escape are more similar to psionics than other magic.
We had no real evidence of the MitD being psionic, and the template makes no physical distinction between the base creature, potentially violating "can be figured out" even more than templates in general.

Pseudonatural Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm)
Summary: Makes the creature a cosmic horror. Explains circus scene with alternate form. It can fit tower scene for ~90% of proposed candidates (Strength ≥8), but can't explain the escape. Can be applied to any corporeal creature. Makes the creature an Outsider (extraplanar)

Can be added to any corporeal creature.
Gives +22 strength, at least 35 natural armor, and DR/epic scaling with HD. This allows pretty much any creature with over 8 strength to fit the tower scene (although the more HD initially, the better).
Has an alternate form specified to be "a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form)," which can explain the circus scene. Alternate form imposes morale penalty on attacks against the monster, but nothing huge like dying of fright or confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html).
Does not provide explanation for the Escape (its Dimensional Door ability has a range of 1200 ft).



Radiant Creature (DR321)
Summary: Creature native to the "plane of radiance." Gets DR/magic and fast healing 2 (while in light), which kind of poorly explains defenses in tower scene. Gives some light-based SLAs (nothing we've seen the MitD use). Main draw is dazzling aura (dazzles creatures within 30 ft that fail a will save) to explain the circus scene. Boost to charisma (+6) might make it more beautiful. Strobe lights can cause dizziness and other such things, so that could explain why some people had a negative reaction. The template can be added to any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid, and changes type to outsider.
Proposed combinations:

The Adversary (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Illithid#Legends): a illithid merged via "faulty ceremorphosis" with a powerful sorcerer.
Half-giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Half-Orc Half-Dragon
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)
Pseudonatural Phrenic Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10319127&postcount=1349)
Pseudonatural greater barghast servitor of the Dark One
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai aka Potted Plant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15747023&postcount=236)

Pimp my Tarrasque
Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/pimptarrasque.jpg

Class Levels Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 18 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")

Proposed class levels:

18 levels of sorcerer would give him access to wish.
2 levels of fighter with the alternate class feature Dungeoncrasher might be used to explain the tower scene (although he would have had to rush Miko and her horse, which doesn't quite fit the "hit lightly" rule he himself imposed).

ReincarnationThis idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible
AbominationIt has been claimed that there is a way for Rich to create his own abomination. Some abomination traits are similar in their description to MitD's eating habits.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words
Almost certainly violates the "didn't create it" clause in Rich's words
Abominations are immune to mind control

PsychicFrom a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psychic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics
Unbridled ShapeshifterBy RAW, a shapeshifting creature can gain a large number of abilities by successive shapeshifting into the correct creatures, gaining their magical powers and access to ways to make those changes permanent. The ur-example of this is Pun Pun, the shapeshifting all-powerful kobold. Combined with some form of convenient amnesia you could create a creature very much like MitD, no matter what powers MitD turns out to posses.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Rich has been very outspoken about his views on this kind of shapeshifting, including a series of articles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910) on how to fix it.


Book of Vile Darkness Demon LordAs per BoVD, demon lords each have a unique look and a unique set of abilities. While a few examples are given (such as Demogorgon, a demon prince), they are explicitly by no means exhaustive. The proposed demon lord, as such, fits the big scenes in whatever way we wish.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Demons may or may not have parents in OotS (general cosmology used doesn't have them, but the demon summoned by Qarr claimed to have one - but he was under the Despair spell, and therefore his idea of being a disappointment to his father might have been spell-induced)
Demon Lords are embodiments of their respective Evil plains, and as per Rich's words on the topic, should not be able to change their moral position more than slightly - nowhere near the range demonstrated by MitD (see section 1e)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

The proposals may still have other objections (such as that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D).

Athasian Nightmare Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944)
Pros:
30 Strength
Psionic teleport
Fairly ugly and unique
CR18, decent defences
Dominated by its voracious appetite, can eat anything
Despite spell-like abilities and intelligence appears to have no listed languages or even forms of communication

Cons:
Huge
Posted publicly a few months after MitD's decision, but the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich.

Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#Glabrezu) (SRD or MM 43)Pros: Access to wish 1/month, explains the escape and why the goblin wasn't teleported. It also cannot grant its own wishes, further explaining the lack of later success.
31 STR
20 CHA, but still rather disturbing looking (http://img04.deviantart.net/0731/i/2013/107/3/8/glabrezu_by_vegasmike-d622krv.jpg), while not being immediately recognisable as a demon
Surprising it can speak common (not in its language list)
The stronger limbs are probably not dextrous. The human-like ones are probably not strong enough to pull on a rope.

Cons: Huge would not really fit under the umbrella
Not surprising it can speak
Depending on canon interpretation, cannot have a parent
Embodiment of Chaotic Evil plane - should not be able to be as Good as MitD is.
Low CR
Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) (SRD or ELH 196)Pros:

Great strength (53)
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into e.g. Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm), which includes greater teleport
As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.
Fluff implies there are protean newborns, so presumably they have some form of parentage ("Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing")

Cons:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same)

Hunting Horror (CoC)Pros:

CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.
Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.
Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye." 6th edition of CoC describes them as "hard to look at" and "continually changing, twitching and writhing".
Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.
Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.
Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version.
Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.
Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult.
Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list

Cons:

Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 - only the last can help explain the "tickle" comment, and not well at that.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list
Access to teleportation a bit dodgy - some older versions give it more random spell access, but D20 specifies a list of spells that does not include teleportation
Damaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either way
Too big to fit under either umbrella or box.
The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.
Alternatively, it has been suggested that the HH could be following the CoC rules, rather than the d20 rules, in which case he could use Avert Harm to resist the attacks, but in that case, the creature does not have a means to explain the escape. As a workaround, it has been suggested it could have learnt a heavily modified Word of Recall that teleports to a random destination, although this has no canon support (that such WoR exists, nor that MitD has learnt it).
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)Pros:
Can interface with a teraport to teleport
Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
Looks like a pile of poo
Endearing and adorable
Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
Famous for his unbridled appetite.
As per Shining Wrath's Weak Carbosilicate Amorphic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21046037&postcount=132) principle, "If MitD is in fact a Carbosilicate Amorph, it is because Rich has brought Carbosilicate Amorphs into OotSverse, and therefore they are as recognizable as any other monster of similar rarity"
Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler, since they are friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19691244&postcount=115)
Cons:
Rich probably wouldn't use a SF character from another comic in his fantasy comic.

Slaad (ELH 217)White/Black slaads only.
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one fits in the box/umbrella. Black only in the box.

Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk.
It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.


Uvuudaum (https://web.archive.org/web/20170102222135/http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html)Pros:

greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escape
very high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)
large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritual
Large size, so fits in the box (not so much under the umbrella)
Normally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks.
A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.

Cons:
Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)
His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.



Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

DeityFirst, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.


GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has been in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light.
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold

Rich "The Giant" Burlew
Rich does not fit any of MitD's characteristics - neither physical (e.g. great strength), nor mental (e.g. personality), nor supernatural (e.g. teleportation powers). Claims that he could give himself the powers needed because he is the author are effectively accusations that MitD is a Mary Sue (unfounded), but also if that were the case, it would be something Rich invented for the story.

A frequent defence is that OotS people would react poorly to people from our world, but we have seen RL people in the comic, and they are stickified, so Rich would not fit the circus scene. Claims that he'd retain his RL nose are baseless, and furthermore the reactions to noses in-comic do not match the circus scene anyway. Rich is also a vegetarian, while MitD eats meat

Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite (except maybe for souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html), although it could equally be a figure of speech of the destruction it brings to mortals), nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".
Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) (SRD or MM 240)Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.

Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)

Boggart (Harry Potter)
Claydol(Pokemon™)
Danica (Star Power)
Diawolf
Domo-kun (NHK)
Father (KND)
Black Mage (Final Fantasy)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy)
Godzilla & pals (Godzilla)
Goku (Dragon Ball)
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump(Winnie the Pooh)
Kirby(Kirby)
Pervect (MYTH Adventures)
Plastic Man (DC Comics)
Lord Ochu (FinalFantasyX)
My Little Pony(My Little Pony)
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
Roger Rabbit (Who framed Roger Rabbit?)
Snorlax (Pokemon™)A great fit, since:

"They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes",
is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping.
It grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').
Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
When not drawn anime style, pokemons can be downright disturbing (non-Snorlax example (http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/10/druddigon_RJPalmer.jpg)).
When you fight a static-encounter Snorlax in the games, if you do not capture it, when the fight ends the game text tells you that it has 'stomped off back to the mountains.'
Has Fissure as an egg move, whose in-game description reads: 'The user opens up a fissure in the ground and drops the foe in. The target instantly faints if it hits.' (picture (https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Fissure_VII.png))


Shadow (Babylon 5)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (Megami Tensei)
Skull (PvP)
Tonberri (Final fantasy)
Vatch (Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (Dr. Who)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi (Super Mario Brothers)
Zoidberg (Futurama)

Section 3d: Light-Hearted Ideas
These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)

Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2178863360/h9D2EAC6A/)
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum13/HTML/000133.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):

A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!

A FanboyTruly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey_Wolf_c
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Keeping up with the thread means he doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
The GiantNo, not that Giant, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?14856-The-Giant) this Giant (http://photos.imageevent.com/supplex55/supplex55vintagenwawcwpromophotos/95%20giant) Former WCW World Champion. Latterly The Big Show, and played by Paul Wight.

An actual fairy-tale Giant, a wild-haired mountain-savage, who wrestled in World Championship Wrestling from 1995 to 1999, and was booked as the son of the late Andre The Giant (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Andre_in_the_late_'80s.jpg).

1) The Escape: Can The Giant teleport?... Bizarrely enough, yes. The Giant debuted in 1995 in World Championship Wrestling as part of the 'Dungeon Of Doom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dungeon_of_Doom)' stable, portraying a similar role that the MITD has in OOTS. The powerful dragon controlled by 'The Taskmaster' Kevin Sullivan (http://lzimages.lazygirls.info/dungeon_of_doom_the_taskmaster_kevin_sullivan_HD7S 58BQ.sized). In this role, he actually could teleport. And teleported to and from the titular 'Dungeon of Doom.'

2) The attack and defense portrayed in the tower scene: At Halloween Havok 1995 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Havoc#1995), he attacked Hulk Hogan on the roof of the Cobo Arena in Detroit. He fell from the roof of a 12,000 seater stadium straight to the concrete parking lot below, and not only lived to tell the tale, but wrestled later that night. Talk about damage reduction. As for attack? Well... He's been showed to flip cars and throw "350 Pounds, solid steel ring-steps" in his time... I think you'd need at least a Strength of 28 to do that last one if you had the Hulking Hurler Prestige Class's ability 'Really Throw Anything.' He's choke-slammed two large men at once, in real life, where the men are resisting, rather than helping you lift them up, that's basically dead-lifting around 500 pounds at once.
Also, he beat Hulk Hogan. No one beats Hulk Hogan. Ever. Seriously. Because Hulk Hogan is an arrogant, selfish old c-... Never mind.

3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus: He's been portrayed as gross, scary, impressive and interesting. And plenty of people paid to watch him.

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories: He's definitely a humanoid.

5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich: Debuted on US TV in 1995

6) Size no bigger than Huge: Only seven foot tall, 484 or so pounds.

7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects: Yup.

8) Smaller and eats less than his father: He was portrayed as the son of Andre The Giant (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/135089/4673684-5125271151-Andre.png) a seven foot four, 520 pound man who is said to have consumed 7,000 calories a day in wine alone.

9) Small, but will get much bigger: The Big Show is significantly fatter now than he was when he was known as The Giant.

10) Could he eat Redcloak whole?: Well... He has the appetite of a Giant, soon after his debut, he became tremendously fat, and since he was booked as a literal Giant, a mountain-dwelling savage from 'Parts Unknown,' he probably isn't above eating moldy cheeseburgers.

11) 'Wouldn't expect to see on of these here [In The Jungle]': You wouldn't expect to bump into a wrestler in a jungle... Well, you wouldn't! Would you? I wouldn't!

12: Surprised he can speak, and in common?: Weirdly enough, despite speaking English very well, the interviewers and commentators would often pretend that they couldn't tell what The Giant was saying, kind of like Stewie in Family Guy.
Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon
The MitD is a green dragon that also has five different green dragon ancestors in his family, so he has five instances of the Half-Dragon template.

Pros:
Template combination is guessable, because it's not unusual for the Stickyverse. Half-dragon hybrids are common: Girard is half-dragon, Enor is half-dragon ogre, Durkon's parents fought a half-dragon troll. The ancient black dragon says in #628 that she's expected that her son invites "that nice green dragon girl", showing that green dragons sometimes interbreed with dragons. #555 has a joke about a half-orc half-orc orc.
63 strength to explain tower scene.
Two claw attacks for 1d6 damage and a bite attack of 1d8 damage, weaker than the attacks of an ordinary young adult green dragon. Lets Miko and horse survive tower scene.
36 natural armor, 25 base armor class, 5/magic DR explains why Belkar's and Miko's attacks fail. Half-Dragon template says "Natural armor improves by +4" so the bonus from multiple instances will stack.
"Elongated features […] and exaggerated teeth and claws" and "more formidable" both stacked five times to explain circus scene. The wizard in circus has seen green dragons, but not one with such grotesque features. He's just the kind of misshapen mutant that a freak show wants to show off. Xykon finds him ugly.
Misshapen features explain why Belkar can't recognize his tracks.
Overly long claws and 10 dexterity makes it difficult to pull the rope.
People can still recognize that he is a dragon, explaining "one of these".
29 intelligence, 19 wisdom, and 29 charisma, may have skills in Bluff and Knowledge. That is why he can bluff Xykon once he actually starts to think, and recognize the half a ritual.
Large size to fit in box.
Can fly, which is how he can get up to the entrances higher up in the mountain without leaving a trace.
Dragons grow as they age, which explain that MitD's father was BIG.
Two eyes.
Not immune to mind affecting effects.

Con:
Doesn't explain escape scene.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Continued

Section 3e: Proposed ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all major MitD scenes (See 3a)
Aboleth Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm)Pros:

28 Strength
Effective caster level 10th would allow him to have teleport
Appearance: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" but charisma 14 could count as "beautiful" for someone that isn't too nauseated by fish-like beings
Can only speak languages that are used underwater - would be surprising to hear him speak out of the water, and in common no less.
Very rare to be found outside of their natural environment (water)
Grows bigger as it ages - father would be bigger than MitD
Eating creatures gives him their memories, which would explain why he doesn't like to eat babies (no memories - bland and boring food) and why he likes stew (he never knows what he's going to get, it's a big surprise!)

Cons:
This creature could be considered the "almost" FBS suggestion.

Strength is almost to the 30 used as rule of thumb for the tower scene, but not quite there
Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
CR17 is almost to the rule of thumb expected power level
3 eyes - almost the right amount - vertically stacked.
Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells

Akvan Div Prince (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html)Too tall. probably not ugly enough. Might be too recent.
Alhoon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alhoon)Undead, not strong enough
Anaxim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) (SRD or ELH 158)Construct, no teleportation.
Andeloid (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/andeloid.php)Can absorb the powers of other creatures, virtually explaining everything with the right set of creatures, but seems unlikely that MitD has had a chance to do so
Angel of DecayUndead
Astral DragonToo big when powerful enough (if it ever is powerful enough - top strength of 24 is insufficient); too weak when the right size. Too recognisable due to being a dragon for it to fit the circus scene. Fluff about staying a child until mating does fit MitD.
Astral Dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm)only one eye, gargantuan, can't explain the escape
Asura (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Asura_%283.5e_Creature%29) (high CR homebrew)Can cause earthquake, looks weird. Can't explain the escape. Unsurprising to hear it speak in common. Too many eyes.
Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) (SRD or ELH 159)Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.
Audrey IINot that ugly (people flock to see it), unclear if it can teleport others/grant wishes (up for interpretation), unclear if its strength is sufficient to punch people through walls and send them flying.
Bauhei (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page39&p=4301770#post4301770)Unclear if it can be called "one of these". Doesn't fit the circus scene (awe doesn't induce vomiting)
Aurumach RilmaniToo humanoid looking to fit the circus scene.
Baku (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=643)28 STR, probability travel works as teleport or a critical roll, fairly unrecognisable. However, also not specially disgusting looking.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (SRD or MM 22)Pros:

Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door

Cons:

Not really all that strong, (max 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)


Black Troll (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=506)Large, ugly as every troll, but looking demonic on top. Can cast Teleportation without error, explaining the escape (but not what the hell a troll is doing with that spell and 10 INT and CHA). Unfortunately, not quite strong enough.
Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm) (SRD or ELH 170)Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape
Brainstealer DragonOld ones are strong and have spells that can explain the escape, but are too big to fit in the box. Young ones that do fit are too weak. All of them can explain the circus scene. Published a year after strip #100
Braxat (MM2 37)Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
Brood Keeper (MM3) Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough. Rich may have had a hand in their creation.
Bigfoot Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
CerebrilithCan´t explain the escape. Insufficient Strength
Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm) (SRD or MM 32)Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.
Cherub (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1478) (four-faced version)Pros:

Strength of 36.
"four-sided head with the faces of a lion, ox, eagle, and man," which can be disgusting
Wish as an SLA, easily explains the escape
Has earthquake as a power, could explain the stomp.
Large size
Can be advanced to gargantuan, meaning that MitD's "father" could be either another larger cherub who was raising him or just a god specifically.
Strange to find a cherub in a rainforest.

Cons:

Like most angelic hosts and demonic armies, it is hard to understand how it went unrecognised in the circus act - most people would have heard of them at their religious service of choice.
OotS Cherubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) don't look like that.
Four sets of eyes
Unsurprising it can talk common (can talk all languages)
SBGH would probably not likely sell divine beings into slavery
Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Doesn't really fit with why Xykon and Redcloak expect him to be "scary" and eat children


Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
ChichimecNo explanation for the escape
CoeurlCR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape
Concordant Killer (MM4)Created too late to be MitD. Not strong enough. Can't explain the escape
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast
Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm)Cannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough) the tower or the circus (not particularly revolting). CR10, nowhere near powerful enough. Since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC
Crypt ThingUndead, can't explain the tower scene. Unclear how somone could claim not to have seen a human skeleton before. Unsurprising it can talk
CrystalleCan cast Wish, but limited since the ioun stone has limited charges. STR 33. Cons: appearance not particularly disgusting; Elemental: doesn't eat or sleep.
Dao (MoP 172)aka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
Deus Ex Machina personifiedWould be a Rich creation
DisenchanterNot strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.
Displacer Beast (MM 60)Can't explain the escape, not strong enough
Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)Pros:

Decent defences
they like to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
DraedenLudicrously large (1,000ft per HD), would not fit in the box. Can raise the dead
Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)Pros:

Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)

Cons:

Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (SRD or ELH 161)Pros:

Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)

Cons:

Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.


Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (SRD or MM 97)Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
EfreetNot powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology
Empyrean5e monster, and therefore published way too late for MitD
Enveloper (1e FF)Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance. Difficulty explaining the circus scene.
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)Pros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm) (SRD or ELH 181)Pros:

Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Essence ReaverPublished in 2007, too late for MitD.
Fhoimoren GiantNo explanation for the escape. Weak defences.
Fiendwurm (MM2 99)strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.
Fihyr, Greater (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=822)too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.
Formian Myrmarch (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Formian_Myrmarch)Not strong enough to explain the tower scene
Gelatinous CubeFits none of the major scenes
General Ox (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1912)Sorcerer with access to 9th level spells, and STR 36. Doesn't quite match the circus scene's public reactions
Genie/Djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm) (SRD or MM 114)while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
GeriviarNo good explanation for the Escape. Not strong enough.
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Giant Snowman (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/MustHaveBeenSomeMagic.png)Large strength and high HP, but no other known powers to explain the other scenes (especially the escape).
Giant Space Hamster (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/animal/giant_space_hamster.pdf)Not strong enough, no magical powers, not ugly enough for the circus scene
Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (SRD or ELH 191)Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH, is now known to be dead.
Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)Fairly strong, very powerful, but has no eyes, shadow walk isn't quite good enough to explain the escape and "tall, very dark, elf-eared person with a cloak" is not exactly "I've never seen anything like it before"
GoristroHuge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm) (SRD or MM 138)can't explain the escape, or the tower. Not particularly good at explaining the circus. Too many eyes (6).
GrendelOriginal text says it is immune to weapons. Unclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength (enough to break benches, but not the full hall).
Grey Slaad (MM 231)can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
GrootslangCannot explain the escape. Did not exist when #100 was posted
Guardinal, Leonal Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.
Gug (CoC)(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.
Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) (SRD or ELH 195)Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being Colossal, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength bellow appropriate amount. Can raise undead (or could by retraining upon level up), which MitD cannot "without gaining 5 levels of cleric".
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) (SRD or XPH 200)Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accounts for circus scene and the escape.
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)
HephaestusGod: Immune to mind control
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (SRD or ELH 197)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
HollyphantNot quite strong enough, can't explain the escape, too adorably cute for the circus scene
Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm)Undead; due to paralysing aura can't explain the circus scene.
IllithidNot strong enough, can't explain the escape
Illithid Elder BrainHas good explanations for the Escape and Circus, but not quite enough strength for the Tower (while still having good defences). Does not have teeth or eyes. Requires a pool of water to live in.
Illurien (MM5)Female, Insufficient strength
Ilsidaur (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page25&p=4025832&viewfull=1#post4025832)Demonic (difficulty explaining alignment, probably no parent), difficulty explaining the circus scene. Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (older versions may exist, but have not been presented)
Incubus Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene
Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) (SRD or ELH 164)Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.
Intellect DevourerStrength too low. No explanation for the Escape
JabberwockDifficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jabberwock is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these". D&D versions tend to be too weak, and lack teleportation.
JuiblexPros:

High strength.
High DR
Teleport without error
Appearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.
Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.
High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.

Cons:

Unique creature (likely, his children wouldn't have the above powers)
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Attacks are always acidic in nature - does not match the Tower scene
Too many eyes, no teeth
Alignment issues (see section 1e)

King-Kong descendantProblem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.
KlickerNo explanation for the escape, didn't exist before comic #100
KlurichirSeveral versions exists: the one that are strong enough cant explain the escape, and viceversa. Demonic, so has some issues with Mit'd morality.
Kyton, Eremite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kyton/kyton-eremite)Can't explain the escape, since it can only self-teleport. Created after strip #100
Lammassu, CelestialNot strong enough, can cast cleric spells.
Lammassu, GreaterThe 2e 'Greater Lammasu' looked promising, but the 3 or 3.5 versions that have been reviewed fell short across the board.
LaogzedDemigod: can be mind controlled
Lava ChildrenCan't explain the circus scene (neither ugly nor particularly strange), unclear if it can explain the escape
Lethus Dragonpublication date 7 years after strip #100. Otherwise, fits the FBS rather nicely, but not the general fluff of MitD
Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut)Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane
MyrmixicusTeleport self+objects only (although with a very generous weight limit). 33 strength. Demonic looking, which might not quite explain the circus scene. Embodiment of a morality plane. Might not have the ability to breath air, since it's a aquatic demon.
Nabassu (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060605a) (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.
Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) (SRD or ELH 206)incorporeal - meaning it has 0 STR and can't explain the punching of Miko or her horse (it could have bitten them, but not hit them)
Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).
Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm) (SRD or XPH 204)Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)
Psionic Teleport at will
Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
Heavy eating
Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O'Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.
Defences not that great
No eyes
Gargantuan
Nessie the Loch Ness MonsterToo big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land
Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)Pros:

Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk

Cons:

Not defensively impressive - Miko would not have had trouble hurting it.
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well.
Red eyes
Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares

Nightscape Battlemage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/47.html)Can't explain the circus scene or the tower scene. Unsurprising it can talk
NycalothInsufficient strength, no good explanation for the circus scene or the tower scene.
Oni, Go-Zu and Me-ZuSeveral varieties, none really strong enough, and with no way to explain the escape.
Onyx Worm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20020808a)not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Ophan AngelGood stats, but hundreds of eyes, and no good explanation for the escape.
Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)undead
Paizo Golem Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100
Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.
Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm)Telepathic, so surprising it can speak. Not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (SRD or MM 57)Pros:
Strong, good defences
Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
Access to Wish

Cons:

Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.

Planetar Angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (SRD or MM 11)Has cleric levels
Pooka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púca)No good explanations for the escape or the tower, being of the trickster fairy archetype
Prismasaurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/prismasaurus.htm)No explanation for the escape, immune to mind-affecting "attacks" (which may or may not include what Xykon did to MitD). In the circus scene, people aren't being blinded or hit by prismatic sprays
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.
Qlippoth (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/qlippoth.html)Specifically, the Augnagar: explains circus and tower, but can't explain the escape. Immune to mind control.
Quaraphon Bully(MM3)Not strong enough, no explanation for the Escape, too many eyes.
Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.
SarrukhNot strange enough for the circus scene. Not strong enough for the Tower Scene. Not surprising it can speak.
SCP-682 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-682)Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD.
ShadeCan't explain the escape, nor the tower scene. It only fits the circus scene if it is a shade with no light sensitivity. Don't eat, breath or age. Their lack of metabolism means they also do not emit odors. The best fitting version is also a homebrew which didn't exist when MitD was picked.
Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

Shadowcloak ElderShadow Blend doesn't match MitD's instructions to stay in the shadows (other than in Xykon's tower), not quite strong enough, can't talk, can't explain the escape.
Shedu, Greater (http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00260.htm) (FF) Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.
Shoggoth (CoC)Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.
Shirokinukatsukami Not enough strength (20), can't explain the escape due to only self-teleporting
Siabrie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a)Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.
Slime ChildPublished after #100
Smiling MedinaHomebrewed after strip 100. Not strong enough for the tower scene.
SnarkCannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)
Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (SRD or MM 12)Cons:

Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead

Sphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) (SRD or MM 232)Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9404200&postcount=811) (aka Son of Cthulhu)Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.
Stench KowWith a CR 3-4, it is not a credible threat to the order. Can't explain the escape or the tower scenes.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) (SRD or MM 242)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O'Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Titan, Elder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elder_Titan)Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.
TrollNot strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
Tulani EledrinToo pretty and elf-looking for the circus scene. Not quite strong enough. Can cast clerical spells.
Two-headed CyclopsTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Ulgurstasta SorcererUndead. Eats (swallows whole) bodies to produce undead, so should have been able to help RC. Gargantuan. Defences too weak to explain the Tower scene or Belkar's attack.
UltrolothDemonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape
Uluu ThalonghNot surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.
Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm)(Blackball)Construct, too weak (Str 10) for the tower scene. Can't explain the earthquake's stomp. Appearance doesn't match circus reactions.
Umpleby (1st ed FF)Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.
UnbodiedCannot explain the escape nor the tower
Utukku (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page3&p=1294154&viewfull=1#post1294154)Insufficient strength. 2nd ed version has poor defences, 3rd ed. version can't explain the escape.
Vasuthant (MM3 182)Undead. Can't explain the escape
VaarsuviusCreated for the comic. Doesn't eat meat. Not strong enough. Explanation that turns a wizard into MitD by means of the Snarl is completely unlikely and unsupported by evidence
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm) (SRD or ELH 226)revolting sight, but can't explain the escape, can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
VelociraptorCannot explain the escape or the tower scene
Void Yai OniCan't explain the escape
Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)Construct
Wendigo (FF 186)Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
WharlyskLives in the rainforest. Huge. No explanation for the escape. Not strong enough
Wild ThingsCannot explain the escape
Wolf-in-sheep's-clothing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/wolf-in-sheep-s-clothing)Can't explain the escape. Can't explain the circus, since he explicitly does nothing during his act, so all the public would see is a tree stump with maybe a dead animal on top. Can't explain the tower scene (STR 17, CR 8)
Wumpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
YaliStrong, can psionic teleport, but cannot explain the circus scene.
Yeti Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)Can't explain the escape
Zodar (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) (FF 199)Pros:
Very strong
Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
Human-sized
Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 4: Thread Information

Section 4a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12577293&postcount=2), and as such obeys the following rules:

CuratorI, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:

Maintain the thread
Remember arguments and canon
Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread


What I can't do

I have no official authority
I am not a moderator
I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on Inappropriate Topics below
I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.


Adding information to the first post
To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.

Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).

The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post (usually at the end of every page divisible by 10), I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.

For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request a vote to make a change to the OP, a proponent must obtain the backing of two other participants. The vote will then be held when the curator can set it up, or at refresh, whichever comes soonest.

Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are considered by consensus inappropriate for the thread. Note that no mod has weighted on either, so the easiest way forward if you want to discuss them is to first get mod approval:

Intellectual Property ("copyrighted") creatures not belonging to WotC. Due to section "Inappropriate Topics", subsection "Professional Advice" of board rules, discussion of laws is verboten in this forum. Since the biggest objection to copyrighted creatures is whether or not Rich would be legally allowed to use them, every such creature proposed quickly devolved into a discussion of applicable laws, which is not allowed. For the purposes of this thread, any creature created after Mickey Mouse (1923) is currently under copyright in the US.
Please also see this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18959523&postcount=2) explaining the rationale behind the blankiet ban on all copyright and copyright discussion, and especially the section on fair use.
MitD's personal alignment: not that of his species, but his personally. Consensus is that his alignment cannot be tied to that of his species (see section 1e). It is a separate enough topic that it should have its own thread. If V can have a thread for gender and a separate one for alignment, MitD can have one for his species (this one) and a separate one for his alignment. At least until the mods say otherwise.

Section 4b: Voting Rules
Major changes to the first post may be put to consensus vote. In those cases, the following rules will be followed:

Semi-public vote: votes will be PM'ed to me, the curator, to prevent the thread from being spammed by multiple short "vote for X" posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping. To prevent fraud, please be ready to reaffirm your vote if someone else PMs you to ask about it.
Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE) will be used.
Vote length: Until a day passes without anyone else voting.
Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead.
Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting.
Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.


Section 4c: FAQ

Do I have to read all of the first post before jumping in?No, but you should exercise good sense and read the sections most likely to be related to what you are about to post.

If you want to propose a creature, scan the proposed creatures list to see if it is already there, and read both section 3a (to see how your idea stacks up against the current "best of the crop") and the frequently proposed (in case your idea is already there - in this last case, you need to address all the cons listed in your first post).

If you want to propose an explanation for a MitD characteristic, check section 2 for it, and see what the general consensus of the thread for the characteristic is. If it is a scene, rather than a characteristic, you may have read the whole section to see where that scene is involved.

For other situations, reading section 4 and this FAQ is a good start. If in doubt, you can ask me, the curator, for guidance to the best sections to read.
When is the first post updated?Updates of details that strike me as important, typos, small corrections and other quick things can happen at any time. But, time permitting, every ten pages (at the end of page 10, 20, 30 & 40) I do "first post refreshes" where I add all new proposed ideas, and I may add entire new sections. See rules for the refreshes in section 4a.
When is a proposal added to the first post?Proposals are added during first post refreshes (every 10 pages, unless I am very busy). For a proposal to be added, it needs to meet the following:

Be minimally defended. If just the name is mentioned, it won't get added
Not meant as a joke. If it was meant as one, it will only be added if I find it exceptionally funny (or with two positive votes).
Not retracted by the author. If the author retracts it and no-one else is in favour, it won't get added.

Why is my idea not a FBS?Probably because it doesn't meet the requirements which by current consensus are:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
Wouldn't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be legal under fair use or parody?A detailed answer would count as legal advice, and can't therefore be further discussed (see Section 4a - Inappropriate topics). Thread consensus is that neither fair use nor parody are applicable to MitD, but agree or disagree, discussion of IP non-D&D monsters is not allowed in this thread per the board rules.
Can't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be discussed, ignoring the legal status and only discussing its pros and cons?In theory, yes, but in practice the biggest con is its legal status, especially if the creature is a half-decent fit. The fact of the matter is that in practice, any non-D&D IP creature quickly descends into a legal discussion.
Isn't every idea guessable? I mean, if someone just guessed it?"Guess" has two meanings. One is "random chance", like throwing a dart at a board. The other is "deduce". Rich intended the second one, as he clarified when he says "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually". He is dropping clues, and expects us to be able to eventually figure it out, presumably once we have all the clues.
Since you haven't found the solution yet, is it possible you are doing something wrong?Not necessarily. Ideas come to this thread slowly. For example, our current best fits were not suggested until late in the second thread and early third, and the explanations for the escape only included the stray dimensional lock as of start of the fifth thread. Besides, there is no way to know if we have found the solution. Balloons won't fall from the ceiling the moment someone says the correct species; for all we know, we have already found the creature Rich thought of.
Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13164767&postcount=1078), in the space of an afternoon, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates, and then repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14497821&postcount=279) the feat a few pages later. There remains a lot of material to explore.
Does MitD have to be a D&D creature?No, not at all. Rich has never said that MitD is a D&D creature, only that, whatever he is, he didn't make his species up.
Does MitD have to be a 3.5 D&D creature?If he was updated to 3.5, yes, since conversion is automatic. But if he was never updated, he could be a 1st Ed or 2ed creature (although the latter would need a reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of never-updated creatures).

[Crusher]

Tracking MitD guesses

We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer. Since the last thread ran for almost 2 years, its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.

This spot will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track people's guess history as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things so feel free to remind me.

For now, I'll organize them chronologically by guess but I may switch to alphabetical. Date is whatever day the forum tells me it was when the note was posted. Also, I'm already getting tired of typing out "Athasian Nightmare Beast", so it will be abbreviated ANB. You can guess up to three candidates.

List of guesses
DaggerPen - Protean 5/21/16, Protean > Hunting Horror 5/28/16, Protean > ANB > Hunting Horror 4/29/2018
Ranagrande - Extremely heavily templated Giant Space Hamster 5/22/16
Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Zodar > Aboleth 5/22/16
Kish - Infernal > Slaad 5/22/16, Infernal > Slaad > Protean 7/17/16, Slaad > Protean 8/31/18
Ron Miel - Púca 5/22/16
Sniffnoy - Uvuudaum 5/22/16
TraceHyde - Protean > Barghest > Something copywrited 5/23/16
Magesmiley - Prismatic Dragon (very young or young) 5/23/16
Michaeler - heavily templated Protean 5/23/16, young Protean = something Snarl-related (perhaps a Protean) 4/20/2018
RWeird - Protean > Neh-Thalggu > Uvuudaum 5/23/16
nihil8r - Glabrezu 5/24/16
Yanisa - ANB 5/27/16
Crusher - ANB > Prismasaurus > Glabrezu 5/27/16, ANB > Glabrezu > Neh-Thalggu 6/22/2016, ANB > Glabrezu > Slaad 1/11/17, Slaad > Glabrezu 1/23/17
HarryMcB - Protean 5/28/16
Lord Bingo - Zodar 5/29/16
Lombard - Couatl 5/31/16, Li Lung (templated) 7/11/18
Quartz - ANB 5/31/16
Halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19
Ruck - Protean > ANB > Snorlax 6/2/16
GM_3826 - Protean > ANB > Uvuudaum 6/2/16
dancrilis - Grey Render 6/3/16
Vendanna - Half-dragon 6/3/16, Half-dragon/demon 11/15/17
IrishMusician - Protean 6/22/16
thereaper - Protean 6/22/16
ReaderAt2046 - Protean > Zodar > Carbosilicate Amorph 6/22/16, Protean > ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 7/17/16, ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 11/17/17
theinsulabot - ANB 6/22/16
Onyavar - Protean 6/22/16
Dark Matter - Protean 6/22/16
Humanist Geek - Protean > ANB > something templated 6/22/16
littlebum2002 - Protean 6/23/16, Slaad > Protean 8/25/2017
voiceofreason - the author 7/1/16
SirKazum - Slaad 7/12/16
Bestigle - Protean 7/12/16
ShiningWrath - ANB 7/17/16, Dread Linnorm (runty, minus a head) 4/28/18
Qwertystop - Protean > Zodar 7/17/16
Hardcore - Imentesh (its a kind of Protean) 7/17/16
Darth V - Protean 7/20/16
Peelee - Protean 7/20/16
Throknor - Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 7/28/16
Knight.Anon - Young Titan 8/3/16
Rosstin - Protean 11/22/16
Outliar - ANB 11/23/16
Darth Paul - Slaad 1/20/17, Slaad > ANB 11/19/17, ANB > Uvuudaum 1/12/19, ANB > Protean, 1/13/19
Kythia - Slaad 8/9/17
Sniccups - Slaad = ANB 10/15/17
Thermophille - Slaad (White > Black) 11/6/17
Monation - Protean 11/15/17
Zenzis - Glabrezu 11/15/17
Shashakiro - ANB 11/15/17, Slaad 8/28/18
Clockshock - ANB 11/20/17
Djinnocide - Enveloper 7/6/18
Jaxzan Proditor- Protean > Zodar 7/11/18
godsflunky - Protean (because of the nice character-development resonances) 7/11/18
woweedd - Protean = Zodar 7/12/18
redgoblin - Hephaestus - 7/18/18
Father Miles - ANB > Protean > Snorlax 7/19/18
3Power - Ha-Naga 7/28/18, Ha-Naga > anything not on FBS list > Zodar 3/20/19
Calavera - Zeus 8/15/18
Synesthesy - White Slaad (transforming to Black after reveal) 9/16/18
Qzin - Snarl, Jr 9/29/18
SpoonR - Baby Deity 9/29/18
Riarra - Slaad > Protean 9/30/18
EmperorSarda - Kandra/Mistwraith 10/22/18
thelivingmonkey - Glabrezu 10/25/18, Protean > Glabrezu > Snorlax 3/13/19
Mightymosy - Something not yet guessed > Protean > Carbosilicate Amorph 1/8/19
NobleCuriosity - Protean > ANB 1/12/19
The Aboleth - ANB 3/5/19
Son of a Lich! - Protean 3/7/19
Mariele - Protean = ANB 3/14/19
Squire Doodad - Protean > Slaad 3/21/19
Jineon - 9-times blinded Beholder 3/29/19
Sir_Norbert - Uvuudaum 3/29/19

I will also compile a list of the top vote-getters, which I will update infrequently. If you have 1 guess, it gets 1 point. 2 ordered guesses split 0.6/0.4 and 3 ordered guesses split 0.5/0.3/0.2. 2 non-ordered guesses "It is either X or Y, with no favorite" will be awarded 0.5/0.5 and 3 non-ordered guesses will go 0.33/0.33/0.33. If you guess more than 3, I'll discard 4th and after if possible. If not possible ("its one of these 5...") then I'll exclude the entire guess.

In the ancient past, when dinosaurs roamed the forums, I used a slightly different scoring system. However, it had a slight improportionality in points awarded based on numbers of monsters guessed. Over time it slowly started bugging me, so I eventually fixed it.

Last updated 3/7/19

Its been six months with a smattering of changes so it felt like time for an update. This feeling turned out to be wrong as essentially nothing has changed since then. The Protean remains the very strong leader and the ANB remains second over the Slaad. The ANB's hold on 2nd had been a little tenuous, but it's support has firmed up lately and its now solidly in 2nd. The Slaad (I grouped votes for White, Black, and any kind of transmutation between forms) may have lost a little ground on the ANB but its hold on 3rd remains firm.

Pretty much everything below third remained reasonably static, at least in the sense that I don't really keep track of whether Aboleth or Enveloper is currently in 8th or whatever. Worth noting is that, as with last time, if I took all of the generic "dragon" suggestions (prismatic dragon, half-dragon, Linnorm, etc) and added them together they'd have a score of 3.0 and be narrowly in 4th. Similarly, all the generic "deity" suggestions (Hephestus, Zeus, etc) combined also have a score of 3.0 so they'd be tied for 4th. Perhaps surprisingly, all the generic "Snarl" suggestions only have a combined score of 1.5. I hadn't looked at its total in a long time, but given how that's kind of a running joke, I'd have thought it'd be higher.

The ranking currently goes:

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 20.5
#2 - ANB - 9.8
#3 - Slaad - 7.9
#4 - Glabrezu - 2.8
#5 - Zodar - 2.6

[b_jonas]

Section 6: Appearances of the MitD

Section 6a: Appearances in online strips.

#23: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) Xykon says MitD is his secret weapon, will reveal him when the time is right.
#37: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) Xykon and MitD watch Roy set off the booby-trapped door.
#47: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html) More crystal ball watching.
#82: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) Redcloak tells MitD off for leaving mess in kitchen. More crystal ball watching. MitD is in magical darkness.
#96: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) MitD can't see gate.
#97: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) MitD joins Redcloak in evil laugh.
#103: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) Xykon practices big reveal of MitD. Xykon is not satisfied, MitD listing spices to cook OotS with isn't scary enough.
#105: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html) Nothing.
#106: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) Doesn't see gate again.
#109, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html) #110, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) #113: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) Nothing notable.
#114: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) Xykon prepares to reveal MitD, gets interrupted. MitD is anxious.
#117: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) MitD wants to get revealed, Redcloak and Xykon stops him.
#120: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) Nothing notable.
#147: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html) MitD asks to hold Xykon's phylactery. Redcloak refuses, MitD had broken all his toys, including “Power Ranger figures”. MitD gets fanged Hello Kitty umbrella.
#148: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) Nothing notable.
#149: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) MitD does exposition about the initiation rituals.
#190: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) MitD teaches Redcloak evil leadership.
#191: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) MitD doesn't want to go into abandoned castle. Xykon tells MitD should be scary and powerful.
#192: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) Nothing notable.
#194: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) MitD asks lantern archons to light him up.
#195: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) MitD asks why Serini's diary is useful, knows about magical books.
#196: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) MitD knows about Dorukan. Doesn't know about gates.
#259: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html) Reader question time. Hobgoblin Kodrog the Slayer knows what the MitD is, took a peek under his umbrella. Dies before he answers.
#299: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) MitD wants to be a valuable member. Redcloak says he can't help in making zombies.
#331: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) Still confused about gate.
#368: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html) “Sometimes I eat to fill the loneliness.”
#369, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) #371: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) Nothing notable.
#373: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) Miko meets MitD.
#374: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) MitD has to stop Miko. Feels Miko's full attack as only tickles. Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his horse far through the tower wall, but they survive. Wall now has holes in the shape of Miko and horse.
#375: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) MitD finds Miko's purse with letter from High Priest of Thor to Durkon, paper cuts his tongue.
#376: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) Xykon had asked MitD to not let Miko get away, and this was Xykon's idea.
#414: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) Nothing notable.
#415: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) MitD crystal ball watching on Miko. Confused about gate.
#422: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) MitD confused about Redcloak chewing out on decoy Xykon.
#426: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) MitD confused about three Xykons.
#428: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) Nothing.
#431: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) MitD confused about four Xykons. Understands the distinction between arcane and divine spells. Redcloak explains the decoy strategy to him. MitD still doesn't understand.
#447: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) Nothing notable.
#451: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) MitD grumbles.
#463: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) MitD plays tea party with toy green dragon. Paralyzed O-Chul arrives.
#474: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) When Belkar is trying to track down Roy's corpse, he sees weird tracks that he can't recognize. They're definitely not hobgoblin footprints, or Roy's, but doesn't know what made them. MitD is still having tea party, now with dead Roy too.
#475: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) Haley and Durkon wants to retrieve Roy's body. MitD doesn't allow, shouts “Stop!” As alternate plan, Haley offers stew in exchange for Roy. Flashback to MitD eating moldy cheeseburger.
#476: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) MitD enjoys Belkar's half-cooked vulture stew. As Haley and Belkar starts to leave, MitD hears they're the Order of the Stick, who he's supposed to devour.
#477: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) MitD thinks about whether he should eat Haley and Belkar without Xykon introducing him first. Doesn't seem to notice Belkar's attack. Haley and Belkar escape while he's still thinking. MitD stomps after demon roach's advice, causes earthquake and huge cracks in ground. “Wow! I didn't know I could do that!” Belkar lets O-Chul go, O-Chul falls back to MitD. MitD is “really tired all of a sudden. And still hungry.”
#484: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) MitD carries the paralyzed O-Chul.
#541: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) MitD is now in a large box with barred window. Wants to join Team Evil in betting game. Again bets on O-Chul escaping.
#543: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) MitD says he hoped O-Chul would escape, but it didn't work. Still doesn't know gates. Wants to get out of the box, Xykon doesn't let him.
#549: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) MitD is friends with O-Chul, trades food with him. Tells he eats anything but babies. Wants to start a club that girls can't join.
#550: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) O-Chul questions MitD about why he's friends with Team Evil. MitD wants to play, O-Chul promises to play go with him in the morning.
#651: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) MitD tells O-Chul about his youth. He always lived in the rainforest, although need not have been born there. His dad was BIG and a big eater. The MitD doesn't know what species he is or where he belongs, but thinks Redcloak and Xykon know. O-Chul convinces the MitD to start to think for himself, with a cheesy go metaphor. We see the go board. Fart joke at MitD's expense when Vaarsuvius arrives with a bang.
#652: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) MitD does not appear. Vaarsuvius casts Quickened Dimensional Anchor spell, its ray misses Xykon.
#654: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) MitD still wants to get the darkness lit up. O-Chul escapes, and in his parting words, reminds the MitD of the lesson from #651. MitD calls O-Chul his real name for the first time.
#658: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) MitD is worried about O-Chul.
#661: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) MitD says O-Chul needs to escape now, because Xykon will be really angry. Calls O-Chul his friend again. Shouts “ESCAPE”, O-Chul and Vaarsuvius disappear. Xykon doesn't seem to realize it was the MitD's doing.
#662: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) MitD is sleeping (or pretending to).
#663: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) (MitD not present.) Vaarsuvius and O-Chul turn out to have arrived in Hinjo's camp. O-Chul requests the most learned scribe because he has questions about the escape.
#699: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) MitD tries to replicate the escape on a hobgoblin. Deliberately misinterpreted Redcloak's words to bother someone else. Hobgoblin tells him he'd need to use magic for that to work, MitD says he's too dumb for that. MitD is worried about where he sent his friends and if they're safe. Mentions the other planes.
#700: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) MitD is not allowed in Tsukiko's room. MitD asks Tsukiko's help because she knows both types of magic. They discuss Tsukiko's fascination with the undead. MitD recognizes ritual scroll as “half a ritual”. Tsukiko promises she'll try to help him find his friend.
#701: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) Hobgoblin from #699 asks MitD to open the curtains before Redcloak's speech. MitD warns him about clumsiness with pulling a rope. MitD thinks the goblins are cheering for his performance with the curtain.
#702: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) Nothing.
#703: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html) MitD reads Gobbotopia history booklet. Joke about how Jirix was dead.
#704: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) Redcloak thinks MitD doesn't know what a prime minister is.
#709: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) MitD meets up with Tsukiko to call in her promise to find his friends. Tsukiko tells him he shouldn't be friends with paladins, and that she can't help because the Cloister spell protects O-Chul from divination. Joke about Xykon's balls. Even if Tsukiko and Xykon can't help, MitD hopes he'll find O-Chul eventually, and recalls the detail O-Chul said about rain.
#828: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html) (MitD not present.) Redcloak says MitD still watches the crystal ball.
#831: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) MitD (still in box) informs Redcloak that Xykon is angry. (The reason is that the resistance acquired his phylactery.)
#832: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html) MitD now under umbrella. (Team evil is preparing to leave.)
#833: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Xykon says they'll take a quick detour to the Astral Plane before they go to Girard's gate. Redcloak opens portal to the Astral Plane. MitD: “Oooo! I love the Astral Plane! It's so silvery and weightless!” Xykon: “When the hell were YOU ever on the Astral Plane?” MitD: “…I don't remember. Maybe I wasn't?”
#886: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) MitD does not appear in OotS's illusionary imagination of confrontation with Team Evil.
#887: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html) In tiny picture in illusion montage, MitD under umbrella drinking tea with O-Chul, while Elan, Roy and Durkon are present.
#899: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) Team Evil arrives to Girard's pyramid, MitD under umbrella.
#900: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) MitD's umbrella damaged after pyramid explodes. He asks which pelvis Xykon is looking for.
#901: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) MitD recognizes the Order of the Stick, knows they are O-Chul's friends. MitD refers to the paralyzed O-Chul accidentally falling to his tea party as him having captured O-Chul. Worried about the party, bluffs to Xykon that O-Chul and Vaarsuvius are more dangerous and must be already at Kraagor's dungeon, while Roy's party distracts Team Evil here. He cleverly uses the fact that Xykon never remembers Roy. The bluff works, they depart to Kraagor's dungeon immediately.
#1036: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html) MitD shows off his new umbrella to Oona, with drawings of duckies.
#1037: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) Oona calls him “Great Beast in Shadow”, magnificent and majestic, “like in wildest dreams”. He saw MitD under umbrella. He and Greyview the dog treats him as if he was Xykon's pet who should obey Xykon, but MitD isn't willing to accept that idea. Oona says he almost bought two humans as food to MitD, seems to have heard that a human was MitD's best friend, but misunderstood as if he was his favourite snack. He also says he'd seen under the umbrella, he's a “magnificent monster”, envies Xykon for owning him, and thinks it's a waste keeping him in the shadows.
#1038: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) MitD understands that Redcloak needs to prepare his spells. Shows suspicious understanding of goblin culture with big words, demon roach lampshades that as clue to MitD puzzle.
#1039: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight.
#1040: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) MitD feels lucky about new company, picks a door. Joke about adventure being off-screen.
#1041: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) MitD falls back, paints cross on multiple doors, including ones not on the ground floor. Holds paint can and brush as if he had two hands.
#1042: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) O-Chul and Lien covertly observe MitD doing that. O-Chul is happy that the MitD is not always obedient to Team Evil. O-Chul has a theory about MitD, but doesn't tell because nobody would believe it. O-Chul brought a go game board.
No further appearance in online strips up to #1159.
Section 6b: Appearances in Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS99.html) (prequel book).
page 49: MitD is sleeping then waking up. He's in the jungle and loves it there. Naively baited by a giant steak on a hook, he gets trapped in a box.
Page 50: MitD asks hunters to let him out of the box, since it doesn't open from the inside. Hunters are surprised that he talks, and talks in Common. They believe he's a rare and expensive catch. “I never expected” They'll load him into the cargo hold of a boat.
Page 83: MitD is about to perform in circus, has stage fright. He likes stew.
Page 84: The ringmaster announces him as “Prepare to feast your eyes on ‘IT!’”. Circus audience reactions: “Oh my gods…”, “It's horrible!” (closing eyes), “And yet beautiful!”, “Mommy, I feel funny looking at it.”, “Blerrrch!” (vomiting), “I've never seen anything like it!”, “Woooooo!” (Redcloak's niece), “YEAH!” (Redcloak's nephew). MitD found the performance tough. The lady who cares for him doesn't understand, because every show he just “stands out on the stage and gets gawked at”. She gives him stew and has prepared his box. The lady also says the MitD's dinner was the same stew every day for over five years. MitD still likes stew.
Page 84: After performance, Redcloak's brother Right-Eye and his children meet MitD. MitD is in the box eating the stew from a bucket. The box seems to be the same one as the one in #541. We see the box from its narrower side too: it has a window without bars there. MitD remains in this box for the rest of the book. MitD recognizes the family and plays with the younger children with his toy plush dragon from #463. Right-Eye: “Almost everyone else who spends a silver piece to get into the sideshow recoils in abject horror at the sight of you”. They leave but will return tomorrow.
Page 85: Right-Eye says that no, they can't take the MitD home. He affirms that the MitD eats a lot of stew, and can sleep.
Page 88: Presumably the next day, Redcloak, newly arrived in town, is supervising Right-Eye's children in the circus. They meet the MitD behind stage in his box again. Redcloak was impressed seeing him. MitD: “I don't fit into the leotards the trapeze artists wear. Probably has something to do with all the stew.” Redcloak affirms that the MitD could leave the circus and kill all the guards if he wanted, but MitD says that would be rude. Redcloak invites the MitD to work for him. Work involves “Being scary, mostly. Maybe some fighting.” MitD is not paid by circus, Redcloak will pay three times as much.
Page 89: In Right-Eye's home, Redcloak tells him he wants to recruit the MitD for the Plan, because he's powerful.
Page 90: During the night, Redcloak steals the monster from the circus. Lifts MitD's box onto a cart with great difficulties. MitD rocks the box to reach the bucket of stew.
Pages 91, 92, 93: Still escaping from circus. MitD doesn't help, except he can lean his weight to steer the cart.
Page 94: MitD eats cotton candy.
Page 95: Nothing notable.
Page 96: Xykon observes the MitD. Xykon says the MitD is ugly, and is his “secret weapon” now, to deal with any heroes who try to stop Xykon and the Plan, as in #103. They're unclear about the details: “Well… what do you do that really terrifies people?” “Um… let's see… I eat a lot?” “OK, then, when the heroes show up, you'll eat them!” “I've never eaten a hero before.” Xykon also magically charms the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon. MitD has swirly eyes, reacts out of character: “Yes, master”. Xykon promises him all the stew he can eat and toys, but refuses to let him out of the box when the MitD asks.
Page 100: Redcloak orders MitD to lead the zombies to attack the castle of Dorukan.
Page 101: MitD has no idea how to storm the castle. Asks zombies to bring him tacos instead.
Page 103: A zombie has brought taco. MitD eats, with bite marks. MitD abuses the authority that Redcloak left him in charge.
Page 104: MitD has a feast with a zombie bringing more taco and a goblin band playing music.
Page 105: MitD still feasting. Xykon questions Redcloak about that.
Page 109: MitD reacts to the news that Right-Eye died and won't be resurrected: “Awwwww, that sucks. He was fun.”. Offers taco to Redcloak.
Page 110, 112: Nothing notable.

Section 6c: Appearance in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (book -1/2).
In the Scruffy story “Scruff and Tumble”, which happens in Gobbotopia while Haley leads the resistance, around the time of #514.
Page 28: In a house, a tiny psionic teleporting elephant beetle is leashed and captured in a magic circle. Redcloak enters to find the beetle gone, the leash torn. Redcloak is angry, blames the MitD for it. MitD is under the Hello Kitty umbrella.

Section 6d: Administrative notes about this list and version history.These lists try to list all appearances of the MitD and references to him in all comic strips that the Giant considers canonical for the story. I mention strips where the MitD is visible even if he's not doing anything, and strips where someone else is talking about the MitD in his absence. I do not collect appearances in non-canonical material such as calendars and ornaments and shirts.

If you find any mistakes or omissions in this list, please point it out in the active MitD thread. I will edit the list in place so that we always have the freshest information on the first page of the thread. In particular, I know there are appearances of the MitD in bonus strips of some of the books I don't have, and one appearance in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales, and would like your help in writing entries for them. I am trying to make the list give an objective description of what we see in the comic without interpreting the scene in any particular way, so please try to stick to that style when writing entries.

Version history.
Until 2014 Back in MitD threads number 5, 6, 7, 8, Savannah posted a list of all appearances of the MitD in the comic on the first page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17449929)
2017-11-17 I ask why this practice stopped in threads 9 and 10. Grey_Wolf_c explains that it is because Savannah refused to give permission to copy his post in later threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579608). I decide to take the matter in my own hands and post a list that covers the first half of the online strips, and try to make it better than Savannah's list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22580072) Doug Lampert also starts one, but I don't like its style so I mostly ignore it, except for making sure I haven't missed any strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579903)
2017-11-19: I post an updated list that covers all online strips up to that point (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22585133)
2018-05-09: I post an updated list that also covers all of Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23056887), edit it in place with last update on 2018-05-29
2018-07-08: I post the list on the first page of the new MitD thread (number 11), with prior permission of the thread curator Grey_Wolf_c. I add this administrative notes, but make no changes from the 2018-05-19 version in the actual list.
2018-07-10: Add literal quotes into #833. Previous description was brief “MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Remark about the astral plane.” I left it like that because this is a strip I have a very strong opinion about, opposing that of some others of the thread, and didn't want to be too subjective.
2018-07-31: Fix #374. Last sentence used to say "Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his far through the wall, but they survive." which is both missing the word "horse" and the important information that there are new holes on the wall. Edited #477 to explicitly mention an earthquake, since the circular waves on the ground seem a clear enough sign. Also added bold keywords to the main panel of the four scenes that we seem to have clear consensus that they are key scenes (tower, ESCAPE, circus) so they're easier to find.
2018-08-22: Add entry for #652 with Dimensional Anchor.
2018-09-03: Mention Power Ranger figures explicitly in #147.
2018-10-11: Extended #474 with Belkar seeing tracks. Old text was just: “Still tea party, now with dead Roy too.”
2018-11-17: Link to #113 was incorrect.
2019-01-30: Add #259. Add new section 6c for book -1/2; other books with only few appearances can go here too.


Thanks.
At least the following forum users gave helpful hints for this list, so I'm hereby thanking them: Doug Lampert, Windscion, D.One, Yendor.

[Peelee]

This post is reserved for a coup to seize control and rule the thread with an iron fist.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This post reserved for a wry comment about how maybe every post in this thread should start with "this post reserved".

Grey Wolf

[Hardcore]

This post reserved for humour.

[Son of A Lich!]

This post is reserved for a page and a half long retort on Greek Mythology.

[Darth Paul]

This post reserved for still being amazed that my nomination (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23630658&postcount=1482) actually became the title for the new thread. (I've never won anything before...)

[Fyraltari]

This post reserved to express my appreciation of this community's sense of humor.

[ArkenBrony]

I was rereading the first post and it sparked some ideas, but nothing really fits. I looked at the hierarch modrons, (archived here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a))but there are too many reasons they don't fit, I was hoping that by being a rogue modron it could work but the secundi is still not strong enough (24 strength) so i'm feeling pretty bad. I would be so excited if it was revealed to be one but they just don't work. I looked through the epic level handbook and noticed that the example creature for paragon is a mind flayer, but it's still not a great fit. i'm gonna go and reread modron march and dead gods to see if they have anything that might work.

edit: also going through dragon magazine's and issue 322, printed in august 2004, months before the mitd was decided, is focused on monsters in darkness. unfortunately nothing fits remotely, but it was exciting.

[Ruck]

This post reserved for the Dufresnes, party of two.

[Peelee]

This post reserved for the Dufresnes, party of two.

Who can eat at a time like this? People are missing! The Dufresnes are in someone's trunk with duct tape over their mouths. And they're hungry! That's a double whammy! Bush, search party of three. You can eat when you find the Dufresnes!

[Keltest]

This post reserved for a comment about how weren't we looking at modifying the OP a bit to include something about the MITD not leaving footprints in the snow?

[Ruck]

Who can eat at a time like this? People are missing! The Dufresnes are in someone's trunk with duct tape over their mouths. And they're hungry! That's a double whammy! Bush, search party of three. You can eat when you find the Dufresnes!

<3

I feel very lucky that I got to see Mitch live before he passed. (Well, of course it was before he passed; else I'd be seeing him dead.)

[Peelee]

<3

I feel very lucky that I got to see Mitch live before he passed. (Well, of course it was before he passed; else I'd be seeing him dead.)

I have a tape of him when he was younger.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This post reserved for a comment about how weren't we looking at modifying the OP a bit to include something about the MITD not leaving footprints in the snow?

This post reserved for a self-deprecating comment about having been on call for work all day and not having had the time.


Who can eat at a time like this? People are missing! The Dufresnes are in someone's trunk with duct tape over their mouths. And they're hungry! That's a double whammy! Bush, search party of three. You can eat when you find the Dufresnes!

C-c-c-combo breaker!

Also, isn't Dufresne some rich banker that shot his wife? I heard he was serving two consecutive life sentences in some prison.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

This post reserved for a self-deprecating comment about having been on call for work all day and not having had the time.



C-c-c-combo breaker!

Also, isn't Dufresne some rich banker that shot his wife? I heard he was serving two consecutive life sentences in some prison.

Grey Wolf

Here's what Peelee and I are referencing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUNvFVQYClY

[Peelee]

C-c-c-combo breaker!

Also, isn't Dufresne some rich banker that shot his wife? I heard he was serving two consecutive life sentences in some prison.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, but he up and vanished. Nobody knows what happened. Heard some Randall Stephens guy made out like a bandit, though.

[Crusher]

This post reserved for the Dufresnes, party of two.

Who the Bushes AREN’T LOOKING FOR!

Edit - Darn it, way too late.

[Darth Paul]

Been doing a lot of thinking today about the uvuudaum.

It fits most of the big scenes very very well. As far as the objections, they are well founded, but: Rich is known to bend flavor text and even rules to fit the story better, as well as making them fit better with common sense (the way I look at it).

1) No mouth or eyes: Everything eats. Somewhere, somehow, there's a mouth on that thing. As for the eyes; a little trickier, since we know many species don't have them in real life, therefore a fantasy species might easily be without. But since MitD came a little before Rich decided what he was, the eyes were an established feature and it would be impossible to take those eyes away without fundamentally changing MitD's character.

2) His confusion aura could be weak, being a juvenile of the species; enough to cause some audience members at the circus to feel sick, but not affect those with class levels (successful Will save) or those who had longer exposure to him. This would be another instance of the RAW being somewhat bent in service of the story.

Strong objections, but I feel this is a better candidate than my original guess of Slaad, especially since it was pointed out that Slaadi speak common and it's no surprise that MitD would be speaking. Still not as good as the ANB, but a strong candidate that I hadn't considered as much as it deserved.

Crusher, when you get to updating the list of guesses, please revise mine to ANB > Uvuudaum. (Both would be juvenile forms, to fit under the umbrella.:smallwink:) Drop the Slaad.

[Caerulea]

This space intentionally left light. (I apologise for continuing an old joke. )

[Jaxzan Proditor]

This post reserved for still being amazed that my nomination (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23630658&postcount=1482) actually became the title for the new thread. (I've never won anything before...)

It was really quite an impressive run.

Anyway, this post reserved for my usual speculation about when we'll next see Team Evil. I think it's possible we'll see them once more in the near future, as it looks like we're coming to a close on Book 6, but I would not be surprised if none of the rest of the falling action (I assume that's where we are) included them.

[The Aboleth]

This post reserved for the inevitable heat-death of the universe.

[Caerulea]

This post reserved for the inevitable heat-death of the universe.
You don't need a reservation, they'll take all who are there.

[The Aboleth]

You don't need a reservation, they'll take all who are there.

Yeah, but this way I'm guaranteed a booth!

[Caerulea]

Yeah, but this way I'm guaranteed a booth!
I think they'll take that too.

[lio45]

I'm also going to reserve some choice real estate on Page 1 for myself, for future use. Or maybe for resale, if it goes up in value enough.


Edit - dammit!!! Just missed the boat.

[lio45]

Given the frequency it shows up as a question, I think it might be worthwhile to put it in the OP somewhere...Y'know, this is exactly why I've been pushing to include something about how many people feel that Rich's comments imply MitD is some sort of "celebrity" monster (i.e. not obscure). The goal of the OP is precisely to brief newcomers properly, so that they get up to speed as fast as possible and don't keep trying to reinvent the wheel in the thread.

Last thread (XI), someday, on my phone, I clicked on (what I thought was) "last page" and instead, I just jumped forward a few pages. I found myself reading an argument from about six months ago (summer of 2018) between a random guy who, essentially, insisted that it was pretty clear MitD had to be "recognizable", and GW who kinda wanted to shut him up.

Clearly, if this very point comes up that regularly... then why not address it in the OP once and for all? Isn't that exactly what the OP is for...? What's the harm in adding a little section* and/or maybe slightly reworking a couple others? Worst case, if you guys want to keep everything else as is, just adding a tiny section* would avoid this argument popping up every once in a while.


* I said "adding", but in fact simply expanding/editing Section 1i a bit would do. More specifically, this part:
Finally, some more people think that the fame of the creature is irrelevant, because nothing in Rich's words suggest that he must be famous......has GOT to pre-date Rich's quote about how many people have expressed doubts an answer could exist to the question "what is MitD" that would be worth the wait, and Rich has reassured them that there's an answer that does. This quote does not guarantee that MitD is famous, but it clearly at the very least suggests it. (I'm ready to defend that anytime; won't elaborate here for the time being, in case we're somehow all in agreement.)



On a semi-related note, copyright issue aside, anyone recalls whether this community found any major problem with Snorlax as a fit?

[Darth Paul]

Y'know, this is exactly why I've been pushing to include something about how many people feel that Rich's comments imply MitD is some sort of "celebrity" monster (i.e. not obscure). The goal of the OP is precisely to brief newcomers properly, so that they get up to speed as fast as possible and don't keep trying to reinvent the wheel in the thread.


It's funny you should mention that...

Why does section 1i of the FAQ not- in your opinion- cover the existence and nature of the "recognition debate", and sum up the three main positions? If not, what needs to be added? And I'm curious why you think that specific comment implies that the Monster is some type of "celebrity" creature?

I take it that the reveal will be satisfying in the context of "Those of you who have spent 11 going on 12 threads now trying to analyze what the Monster is, will not be disappointed when you find out. You will be slapping your foreheads and saying 'Of course! That explains everything!'"

[Ruck]

Huh, your post got me to reading 1h and 1i, which I guess maybe I never had closely.


On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.

Does the Protean not fit this description-- or, at least, the partial-shifting aspects of it fit well enough for what is generally being described here?

[Darth Paul]

Does the Protean not fit this description-- or, at least, the partial-shifting aspects of it fit well enough for what is generally being described here?

Intriguing. (And I don't much like the Protean as a candidate... yet, intriguing...)

I guess it depends on how perfect a mimic we assume the Protean is. That is, how much like an elk, for example, does it look when it mimics an elk? Is it identical to an elk, or is it elk-shaped, but still boiling around the edges? Would you know (if you knew about proteans in the first place) that it was a protean in the shape of an elk? Or would you say, "Huh. An elk," and then be frightened out of your skivvies when it changed shape and became an umber hulk?

When I picture one, I think of a gibbering mouther, but fewer mouths and more eyes. The illustration I found when googling is just plain hideous. :smalleek:

[b_jonas]

I guess it depends on how perfect a mimic we assume the Protean is. That is, how much like an elk, for example, does it look when it mimics an elk? Is it identical to an elk, or is it elk-shaped, but still boiling around the edges? Would you know (if you knew about proteans in the first place) that it was a protean in the shape of an elk? Or would you say, "Huh. An elk," and then be frightened out of your skivvies when it changed shape and became an umber hulk? IIRC back when this thread talked about things relevant to the MitD, GW insisted that the Protean doesn't take the shape of a single creature like an Elk, it always looks like a mish-mash of different creatures and possibly unidentifiable parts. It can hold one shape that it has taken, but it can't choose a shape.

Other shapechangers may differ. We've seen in OotS that illusions and Sabine's shapechange can be pretty convincing, but also that Vaarsuvius took the form of a pink dragon, and I'm not even sure if real pink dragons exist. When you first asked about an elk, I naturally thought of Game-Trail Changeling (https://scryfall.com/card/mor/123/game-trail-changeling), as it is shown on the M:tG card. It is imitating some sort of deer, and in the card it's illustrated as green translucent and more shiny than a real deer, but its shape looks pretty much like a real deer. That said, the illustration may be using unrealistic conventions to make it clear to the players that it's a shapeshifter. OotS have been using such conventions with illusions already, when the viewpoint characters are ones who know about the illusion.

[NobleCuriosity]

I’d like to guess Protean (first) > ANB.

Edit: My reasoning: Like many people, I think that Protean is the best fit to MitD's abilities. The main knocks against it that I’ve seen are that 1) the constant shapeshifting should change the mouth and eye position/type and 2) The Escape requires a lot of things to go just right: MitD has to have been hit by the stray Dimensional Anchor, the comic not requiring teleport casters to touch their passengers has to be a canon difference and not just artistic license for panel composition, a really lucky roll has to deliver O-Chul and V to the right location, and MitD must have shifted into the exact right creature (and one that needed to be converted via a means that we’re not sure has been used). Then he must not be able to figure out how to do it again with the roaches or hobgoblin later.

I don’t think 1) is a serious objection. Having the eyes and/or voice being the only constants for a shapeshifter is a pretty common storytelling convention, AND we can’t see them in detail because of the shadow, AND most eyes/mouths look pretty similar in Rich’s original art style, AND Rich probably cares more about conveying the monster’s expression well and consistently than about giving a clue that would likely be too big of a hint before the time comes that could be explained away in other means (and also a bunch of stuff that is listed on this page of this thread a bit below). 2) Is a more serious concern, but I think that the fact that the Ootsverse literally ignores probability if the results would be significantly dramatic (and what happens was vastly more dramatic than Xykon simply succeeding) explains the teleport roll functioning, the MitD only pulling it off at the absolute last possible second, and possibly the not being able to repeat it at all later (which is also explained by the somewhat but not completely uncontrollable shapeshifting); also, as noted a bit later in this thread, the Protean's Detect Thoughts power could have let it get the knowledge of the beachfront ally location from V's mind. Everything else there we do have an explanation for, and now that we’ve had a psionic character (Lauren) as a nontrivial plot point and not just 1-shot jokes, the psionic conversion seems much more plausible.

And the Protean explains the circus scene SO much better than anything else. It explains how MitD could just stand there doing nothing and still utterly amaze everyone, how sight of him could be both disgusting to the point of nausea (after they’ve seen it, not before, in my mind making scent or auras a less likely explanation) yet eerily beautiful to some, and how MitD is incredibly and uniquely unrecognizable (note that the wizard doesn't just say "I don't know what it is", he says the much stronger "I've never seen anything like it." A "not that weird for monsters" body like the Glabrezu's 4 armed spiky humanoid form or the Uvuudaum's "6 legs on a torso plus a head" doesn't explain that comment as well as the Protean's constant shapechanging does, which presumably gives a much more unique look).

The last thing that bothers me just a little is Rich replying to that question of “Could any species be worth the wait for the MitD reveal?” with such a confident “Yes.” Recall how Redcloak is so quick to take him on to Team Evil (in spite of Redcloak’s preference for Evil teammates and less important preference for Lawfulness), the whole talk with O-Chul about how MitD is a “good man,” and in particular that O-Chul thinks MitD wouldn’t believe him if he told MitD what he was. All that plus the constant jokes about how his personality makes him a lot less scary than he "should" be, and having to stay in the darkness which smells suspiciously of double meanings about fear of the unknown and lack of understanding of other cultures and stereotypes about dangerous monsters blah blah blah in addition to being a joke. I can’t help but feel like MitD is intended (among other things) to be a big part of Rich’s critique of the alignment system and what it means to be a monster, with MitD’s species and looks in his big reveal coming in sharp and shocking contrast to what we, with our additional information, know about his personality and choices. Him having a species alignment listed as “always chaotic neutral” that he is actually fairly close to (though maybe good) just doesn’t seem to say much. MitD’s identity has been hidden to serve an eventual surprise for over a decade now. What about MitD being revealed to be a Protean is emotionally charged? Why is that a secret worth keeping for so very long, for a reveal which is most certainly not just going to be a joke (as I recall Rich mentioned it as a dramatic moment he was very much looking forward to)? The best I can come up with is that the shapeshifting is a literal symbol for how people-any kind, no matter how seemingly monstrous-can change, that appearance doesn’t always reflect reality, and that thus we shouldn’t have games that encourage the assumption that everything that looks sufficiently different or “monstrous” needs to be killed. But you know what fits that better, which makes it that much more of a genuine shock for the readerbase? A species whose alignment is listed as “Always Evil”—with a fiendish race in particular stunning us by breaking the last assumption about “always evil” creatures that Rich has allowed to hold in his comic (though it’s possible he genuinely wants to allow that one.), a fittingly climactic moment worthy of a decade of buildup that will spark a lot of discussion.

Note that overall I still think the shapeshifting symbolism thing is likely enough, and that MitD is a Protean. But this does give me some pause and doubt.

I would say the ANB is also a good fit to MitD’s abilities (though not as good at explaining the circus scene), and it’s always-chaotic-evil species alignment fits with my doubts. But having to have had an advanced copy sent to Rich is a pretty big ding.

The doubts and the escape scene almost make me want to pick the Glabrezu or Uvuudaum in 3rd. But for the Glabrezu, CR 13 just seems too low to be worth Xykon’s or Redcloak’s time, or to be a credible threat to the Oots; and for the Uvuudaum, literally not having eyes or a mouth at all is just a bit too much for me to buy Rich saying "nothing before then contradicts it."

[Mightymosy]

Been doing a lot of thinking today about the uvuudaum.

It fits most of the big scenes very very well. As far as the objections, they are well founded, but: Rich is known to bend flavor text and even rules to fit the story better, as well as making them fit better with common sense (the way I look at it).

1) No mouth or eyes: Everything eats. Somewhere, somehow, there's a mouth on that thing. As for the eyes; a little trickier, since we know many species don't have them in real life, therefore a fantasy species might easily be without. But since MitD came a little before Rich decided what he was, the eyes were an established feature and it would be impossible to take those eyes away without fundamentally changing MitD's character.

2) His confusion aura could be weak, being a juvenile of the species; enough to cause some audience members at the circus to feel sick, but not affect those with class levels (successful Will save) or those who had longer exposure to him. This would be another instance of the RAW being somewhat bent in service of the story.

Strong objections, but I feel this is a better candidate than my original guess of Slaad, especially since it was pointed out that Slaadi speak common and it's no surprise that MitD would be speaking. Still not as good as the ANB, but a strong candidate that I hadn't considered as much as it deserved.

Crusher, when you get to updating the list of guesses, please revise mine to ANB > Uvuudaum. (Both would be juvenile forms, to fit under the umbrella.:smallwink:) Drop the Slaad.

Personally, I think that Rich would find it very important that the one feature that he as yet drawn (the eyes) need to match the eventual species of MitD. It is a visual medium, after all.
For me, that's also one of the biggest strikes against the Protean. I thought the Protean would otherwise be a good fit, but we don't see it MitD changings his eyes at all. So....


ETA: Isn't there someone other than Rich knowing what MitD is? I remember some quote where he said that he had once told someone, but luckily that person didn't spoil the secret thus far.
Or do I misremember and that was about V's gender or some other mystery?

[b_jonas]

ETA: Isn't there someone other than Rich knowing what MitD is? I remember some quote where he said that he had once told someone, but luckily that person didn't spoil the secret thus far.
Or do I misremember and that was about V's gender or some other mystery? That was about Vaarsuvius's gender. See 11094344.

[Mightymosy]

That was about Vaarsuvius's gender. See 11094344.

Thank you. Never mind then.

[Peelee]

Y'know, this is exactly why I've been pushing to include something about how many people feel that Rich's comments imply MitD is some sort of "celebrity" monster (i.e. not obscure). The goal of the OP is precisely to brief newcomers properly, so that they get up to speed as fast as possible and don't keep trying to reinvent the wheel in the thread.

Because I don't think you ever responded to this...
If you missed them, here are a bunch of proposed ideas that are "celebrities," as you put it, and not in the monster manuals.



Section 3: Proposed Ideas


Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

DeityFirst, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.


Rich "The Giant" Burlew
Rich does not fit any of MitD's characteristics - neither physical (e.g. great strength), nor mental (e.g. personality), nor supernatural (e.g. teleportation powers). Claims that he could give himself the powers needed because he is the author are effectively accusations that MitD is a Mary Sue (unfounded), but also if that were the case, it would be something Rich invented for the story.

A frequent defence is that OotS people would react poorly to people from our world, but we have seen RL people in the comic, and they are stickified, so Rich would not fit the circus scene. Claims that he'd retain his RL nose are baseless, and furthermore the reactions to noses in-comic do not match the circus scene anyway. Rich is also a vegetarian, while MitD eats meat

Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite (except maybe for souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html), although it could equally be a figure of speech of the destruction it brings to mortals), nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".

Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)

Boggart (Harry Potter)
Claydol(Pokemon™)
Danica (Star Power)
Diawolf
Domo-kun (NHK)
Father (KND)
Black Mage (Final Fantasy)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy)
Godzilla & pals (Godzilla)
Goku (Dragon Ball)
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump(Winnie the Pooh)
Kirby(Kirby)
Pervect (MYTH Adventures)
Plastic Man (DC Comics)
Lord Ochu (FinalFantasyX)
My Little Pony(My Little Pony)
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
Roger Rabbit (Who framed Roger Rabbit?)
Snorlax (Pokemon™)A great fit, since:

"They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes",
is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping.
It grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').
Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
When not drawn anime style, pokemons can be downright disturbing (non-Snorlax example (http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/10/druddigon_RJPalmer.jpg)).
When you fight a static-encounter Snorlax in the games, if you do not capture it, when the fight ends the game text tells you that it has 'stomped off back to the mountains.'
Has Fissure as an egg move, whose in-game description reads: 'The user opens up a fissure in the ground and drops the foe in. The target instantly faints if it hits.' (picture (http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/6/64/Fissure.png))


Shadow (Babylon 5)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (Megami Tensei)
Skull (PvP)
Tonberri (Final fantasy)
Vatch (Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (Dr. Who)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi (Super Mario Brothers)
Zoidberg (Futurama)

Section 3d: Light-Hearted Ideas
These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)

Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2178863360/h9D2EAC6A/)
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum13/HTML/000133.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):

A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!

A FanboyTruly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey_Wolf_c
The GiantNo, not that Giant, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?14856-The-Giant) this Giant (http://photos.imageevent.com/supplex55/supplex55vintagenwawcwpromophotos/95%20giant) Former WCW World Champion. Latterly The Big Show, and played by Paul Wight.

An actual fairy-tale Giant, a wild-haired mountain-savage, who wrestled in World Championship Wrestling from 1995 to 1999, and was booked as the son of the late Andre The Giant (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Andre_in_the_late_'80s.jpg).

1) The Escape: Can The Giant teleport?... Bizarrely enough, yes. The Giant debuted in 1995 in World Championship Wrestling as part of the 'Dungeon Of Doom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dungeon_of_Doom)' stable, portraying a similar role that the MITD has in OOTS. The powerful dragon controlled by 'The Taskmaster' Kevin Sullivan (http://lzimages.lazygirls.info/dungeon_of_doom_the_taskmaster_kevin_sullivan_HD7S 58BQ.sized). In this role, he actually could teleport. And teleported to and from the titular 'Dungeon of Doom.'

2) The attack and defense portrayed in the tower scene: At Halloween Havok 1995 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Havoc#1995), he attacked Hulk Hogan on the roof of the Cobo Arena in Detroit. He fell from the roof of a 12,000 seater stadium straight to the concrete parking lot below, and not only lived to tell the tale, but wrestled later that night. Talk about damage reduction. As for attack? Well... He's been showed to flip cars and throw "350 Pounds, solid steel ring-steps" in his time... I think you'd need at least a Strength of 28 to do that last one if you had the Hulking Hurler Prestige Class's ability 'Really Throw Anything.' He's choke-slammed two large men at once, in real life, where the men are resisting, rather than helping you lift them up, that's basically dead-lifting around 500 pounds at once.
Also, he beat Hulk Hogan. No one beats Hulk Hogan. Ever. Seriously. Because Hulk Hogan is an arrogant, selfish old c-... Never mind.

3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus: He's been portrayed as gross, scary, impressive and interesting. And plenty of people paid to watch him.

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories: He's definitely a humanoid.

5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich: Debuted on US TV in 1995

6) Size no bigger than Huge: Only seven foot tall, 484 or so pounds.

7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects: Yup.

8) Smaller and eats less than his father: He was portrayed as the son of Andre The Giant (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/135089/4673684-5125271151-Andre.png) a seven foot four, 520 pound man who is said to have consumed 7,000 calories a day in wine alone.

9) Small, but will get much bigger: The Big Show is significantly fatter now than he was when he was known as The Giant.

10) Could he eat Redcloak whole?: Well... He has the appetite of a Giant, soon after his debut, he became tremendously fat, and since he was booked as a literal Giant, a mountain-dwelling savage from 'Parts Unknown,' he probably isn't above eating moldy cheeseburgers.

11) 'Wouldn't expect to see on of these here [In The Jungle]': You wouldn't expect to bump into a wrestler in a jungle... Well, you wouldn't! Would you? I wouldn't!

12: Surprised he can speak, and in common?: Weirdly enough, despite speaking English very well, the interviewers and commentators would often pretend that they couldn't tell what The Giant was saying, kind of like Stewie in Family Guy.
Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon
The MitD is a green dragon that also has five different green dragon ancestors in his family, so he has five instances of the Half-Dragon template.

Pros:
Template combination is guessable, because it's not unusual for the Stickyverse. Half-dragon hybrids are common: Girard is half-dragon, Enor is half-dragon ogre. The ancient black dragon says in #628 that she's expected that her son invites "that nice green dragon girl", showing that green dragons sometimes interbreed with dragons. #555 has a joke about a half-orc half-orc orc.
63 strength to explain tower scene.
Two claw attacks for 1d6 damage and a bite attack of 1d8 damage, weaker than the attacks of an ordinary young adult green dragon. Lets Miko and horse survive tower scene.
36 natural armor, 25 base armor class, 5/magic DR explains why Belkar's and Miko's attacks fail. Half-Dragon template says "Natural armor improves by +4" so the bonus from multiple instances will stack.
"Elongated features […] and exaggerated teeth and claws" and "more formidable" both stacked five times to explain circus scene. The wizard in circus has seen green dragons, but not one with such grotesque features. He's just the kind of misshapen mutant that a freak show wants to show off. Xykon finds him ugly.
Misshapen features explain why Belkar can't recognize his tracks.
Overly long claws and 10 dexterity makes it difficult to pull the rope.
People can still recognize that he is a dragon, explaining "one of these".
29 intelligence, 19 wisdom, and 29 charisma, may have skills in Bluff and Knowledge. That is why he can bluff Xykon once he actually starts to think, and recognize the half a ritual.
Large size to fit in box.
Can fly, which is how he can get up to the entrances higher up in the mountain without leaving a trace.
Dragons grow as they age, which explain that MitD's father was BIG.
Two eyes.
Not immune to mind affecting effects.

Con:
Doesn't explain escape scene.



Note that most of the "celebrity" suggestions have the same issue: copyright. But that's three lists right there of mostly non-D&D suggestions that have been proposed in the past. By, I would imagine, many people.
What does your suggested change affect? "Celebrity" monsters have been suggested, and in droves. None have met the criteria. Saying "hey this thing that was never disallowed and has had a lot of people engaging in is allowed bytheway!" does, IMO, significantly less than you think it does.

[Darth Paul]

Personally, I think that Rich would find it very important that the one feature that he as yet drawn (the eyes) need to match the eventual species of MitD. It is a visual medium, after all.
For me, that's also one of the biggest strikes against the Protean. I thought the Protean would otherwise be a good fit, but we don't see it MitD changings his eyes at all. So....


I do not disagree with you in any regard whatsoever. That's why I rate the ANB higher than Uvuudaum as a possibility, and probably I should make it clear that it's a much higher rating in my book. But with the exception of the eyes; and that's a pretty huge exception, I agree with you; it's about as perfect a FBS candidate as we have seen so far. Tied with the ANB in that regard, and the tracks of a 6-legged critter would confuse Belkar even more (especially if that creature were dragging party supplies and a paralyzed O-Chul).

The lack of any eyes or mouth in any illustrations or flavor text (and the fact of its +50 Blindfighting skill is a heavy indication that the creators intend it to have no eyes, period) are big strikes against it, though.

A consistent form, even without eyes in the illustration, is still easier for me to swallow than a form that changes its shape, including eyes, randomly. That's why I dislike the Protean as an explanation, beyond the fact that it doesn't have inherent abilities to explain the Escape scene.

[Ruck]

A consistent form, even without eyes in the illustration, is still easier for me to swallow than a form that changes its shape, including eyes, randomly. That's why I dislike the Protean as an explanation, beyond the fact that it doesn't have inherent abilities to explain the Escape scene.

I'll just re-post my thoughts on the Protean when I shared them in the last thread:


My argument basically comes down to artistic license, looking at it from the other end. If we assume the MITD is a Protean, how would Rich draw him?

Given that

1)Rich started drawing the MITD before he knew what species he was;
2)Rich wants to keep the MITD's species a secret until the dramatic reveal near the end of the book;
3)Rich chose the MITD's species for storytelling purposes;

I think Rich would continue to draw the MITD consistently with the manner he had before, because changing the art would give away the game. I also think that he would not let that potential art inconsistency get in the way of the story he wanted to tell. (In other words, I think if he thought Protean was best for the story, he would not decide that he can't use it because the artwork had been inconsistent with how a Protean might be depicted.)

There's also the fact that none of the suggestions we've come up with are perfect fits, so you have to fudge something somewhere. I think this is the most minor fudge, and so with that in addition to why I think the Protean is best for storytelling purposes, it gets my vote. (Mechanically, I think the Athasian Nightmare Beast is the only one that comes close to the Protean for fit, but "wasn't actually released when Rich decided, but he knew about it in advance" is a significantly bigger fudge for me than "eyes shouldn't be consistently placed.")

EDIT: And if you really need a mechanical explanation, Peelee's isn't too bad, when you consider how strongly aware many characters in OOTS seem to be of the fourth wall. It's possible MITD makes a point to present in a two-eyed form when the "camera" is on him.


I don't think artistic license is as big a stretch as outright changing a monster's stats.

I'm repeating myself at this point, but: The thing to remember is that Rich started drawing the MitD before he knew what species it would be, but he still chose the creature that would best fit the story, not that would best fit the artwork to date. You've also got to remember that Rich is trying to keep the species secret until the time to reveal the MitD in the story has come; if he drew MitD's eyes in a fashion that obviously moved around like a Protean's might, well, that would defeat the purpose.


No, he didn't say that. I'm saying that if he decided the best monster for the story he wanted to tell was a Protean, he would make MitD a Protean regardless of the artwork (but I mean, the artwork is also literally "a pair of eyes in the dark"), and he wouldn't change the artwork in a way to give away the identity of the monster. I don't think Rich would plan out a story that's going to take him literally 20 years to write when it's all said and done, and decide he can't use the monster he wants to because "most people familiar with the Protean would expect the eyes to move around."

Have you looked at the list of FBS monsters? Every one of them has something you're going to have to overlook or rationalize in order to fit it in. I've given my reasons why I think both that the Protean requires the least amount of rationalizing and that the Protean best fits for the themes of the story. If I'm going to be convinced it's not a Protean, I'm going to need something that fits better than the Protean does. I haven't seen that.


One reason I think MITD can be a Protean despite the seeming permanence of his eyes and mouth: He's focused on keeping them the same (for whatever reason), and that's very tiring. And doing more than one thing at once seems very tricky and confusing for him (panel 3). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)

[Peelee]

Personally, I think that Rich would find it very important that the one feature that he as yet drawn (the eyes) need to match the eventual species of MitD. It is a visual medium, after all.
For me, that's also one of the biggest strikes against the Protean. I thought the Protean would otherwise be a good fit, but we don't see it MitD changings his eyes at all. So....

Assume, for the moment, that it is a Protean. Changing the number or positions of the eyes would the single biggest, most obvious giveaways there could be, outside of having the monster actually step out of the darkness. So it stands to reason that this would never happen, and expecting it would be ludicrous.

[Darth Paul]

I'll just re-post my thoughts on the Protean when I shared them in the last thread:


Assume, for the moment, that it is a Protean. Changing the number or positions of the eyes would the single biggest, most obvious giveaways there could be, outside of having the monster actually step out of the darkness. So it stands to reason that this would never happen, and expecting it would be ludicrous.

Very true. And yet, there's the Escape scene. I actually would like to add Protean to my list, instead of Uvuudaum. Having eyes, it fits better. My objection isn't really so much the shapeshifting issue as the Escape scene required powers. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear.

Unless we grant that it was managed via a Plane Shift to the same plane, not impossible, but not the way it works in RAW, I don't see how a Protean manages it. Even shifting to a form that has a Greater Teleport ability, the way I read the description of a Protean, should not grant it that ability, should it?

Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers).
I would overlook the eyes as an art choice (to avoid a dead giveaway of MitD's identity) if there were a creature that had Teleport as an extraordinary, instead of a spell-like ability. But in my fishing through the MM glossary, all psionics are SLA, not Extraordinary. That seems, the way I read it, to rule out the Protean being able to acquire a psionic or magic Greater Teleport via a shapeshift.

Either way, whether by a bent Plane Shift or by bending the rule on acquiring a power during a shapeshift, that feels like something we couldn't guess. (Although I guess I just guessed it, didn't I...) And MitD would have to guess what shape to change into and gain the Teleport ability, then use it at the same time. Plane Shift feels more "right", as an ability he had all the time and discovered how to use, so that fits the comments Rich made in DStP. Yet both feel like a stretch.

I want to be wrong. Someone explain to me how wrong I am, please, and then I'll replace Uvuudaum on my list.

[Synesthesy]

Very true. And yet, there's the Escape scene. I actually would like to add Protean to my list, instead of Uvuudaum. Having eyes, it fits better. My objection isn't really so much the shapeshifting issue as the Escape scene required powers. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear.

Unless we grant that it was managed via a Plane Shift to the same plane, not impossible, but not the way it works in RAW, I don't see how a Protean manages it. Even shifting to a form that has a Greater Teleport ability, the way I read the description of a Protean, should not grant it that ability, should it?

I would overlook the eyes as an art choice (to avoid a dead giveaway of MitD's identity) if there were a creature that had Teleport as an extraordinary, instead of a spell-like ability. But in my fishing through the MM glossary, all psionics are SLA, not Extraordinary. That seems, the way I read it, to rule out the Protean being able to acquire a psionic or magic Greater Teleport via a shapeshift.

Either way, whether by a bent Plane Shift or by bending the rule on acquiring a power during a shapeshift, that feels like something we couldn't guess. (Although I guess I just guessed it, didn't I...) And MitD would have to guess what shape to change into and gain the Teleport ability, then use it at the same time. Plane Shift feels more "right", as an ability he had all the time and discovered how to use, so that fits the comments Rich made in DStP. Yet both feel like a stretch.

I want to be wrong. Someone explain to me how wrong I am, please, and then I'll replace Uvuudaum on my list.

To me, I would vote Protean IF AND ONLY IF there was a Wish ability he can copy. Wish is better then teleport or plane shift, Wish would be good enough for me to make for the wrong eyes in the drawing (yes, I don't buy the theory "the only thing about the Monster we see is wrong just not to spoil it).
Or if the Protean is Italian, of course

[Ruck]

I admittedly am not certain what power MitD used for the escape scene. (The Glabrezu's "wish 1/month" ability makes the most sense to me, but I have too many other objections there.) Reading the FBS post, Protean might have Psionic Teleport given that psionics are established in OOTS-world. And I'm not sure which other monsters it could conceivably partially-shift into that would give it an adequate explanation for Escape, but I am assuming at least one exists.

[Darth Paul]

To me, I would vote Protean IF AND ONLY IF there was a Wish ability he can copy. Wish is better then teleport or plane shift, Wish would be good enough for me to make for the wrong eyes in the drawing (yes, I don't buy the theory "the only thing about the Monster we see is wrong just not to spoil it).
Or if the Protean is Italian, of course

Wish would be the best choice, actually. I'm disappointed in myself for not mentioning it. :smallannoyed: The problem is, it's yet another SLA.
I've overcome the eye issue, now I have to jump the much higher hurdle of "acquires SLA via shapeshifting even though the RAW say he can't".
Protean sounds Latin, which is just a step away from Italian. Any help there?

I admittedly am not certain what power MitD used for the escape scene. (The Glabrezu's "wish 1/month" ability makes the most sense to me, but I have too many other objections there.) Reading the FBS post, Protean might have Psionic Teleport given that psionics are established in OOTS-world. And I'm not sure which other monsters it could conceivably partially-shift into that would give it an adequate explanation for Escape, but I am assuming at least one exists.
In my opinion a Psionic Protean violates Occam's Razor, versus possibly finding a creature with an inherent Wish ability. I have my doubts that we'll find one, though, that has Wish other than as a spell-like ability.

[Ruck]

Wish would be the best choice, actually. I'm disappointed in myself for not mentioning it. :smallannoyed: The problem is, it's yet another SLA.
I've overcome the eye issue, now I have to jump the much higher hurdle of "acquires SLA via shapeshifting even though the RAW say he can't".
Protean sounds Latin, which is just a step away from Italian. Any help there?

In my opinion a Psionic Protean violates Occam's Razor, versus possibly finding a creature with an inherent Wish ability. I have my doubts that we'll find one, though, that has Wish other than as a spell-like ability.

Maybe so. I don't know enough about the D&D rules to know how psionics work, but a Protean is a psionic creature and psionics exist in OOTS-world. So I don't know if that implies the Protean has a Psionic Teleport ability or can easily duplicate one, or what.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Even shifting to a form that has a Greater Teleport ability, the way I read the description of a Protean, should not grant it that ability, should it?

Like it says in the first post, Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm) has an Extraordinary ability, Planar Travel, that allows at-will greater teleport.

Grey Wolf

[Darth Paul]

I misphrased that. A protean with added templates for more psionic powers is the stretch I had in mind.


Psionics (Sp)
At will —detect thoughts, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, knock, nondetection, plane shift, suggestion. Caster level 20th, save DC 22.
These powers alone account for the majority of what we know about MitD. The only thing he can't do of his own nature is Wish that O-Chul Escape. A plane shift could account for it, if it were fudged to shift people on the same plane.
I think the ANB is a better candidate, based on its ability (also psionic FWIW) to teleport. That doesn't requires less fudging of the rules than a plane shift, and much less than acquiring a Wish ability through shape changing.

If we grant the ability to gain a Wish ability through shapeshifting, though, any creature that can perform Wish is fair game. Djinn is an obvious one. So, assume Protean-MitD partially shifted to a Djinn long enough to Wish that O-Chul and V could Escape. Problem solved.


Like it says in the first post, Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm) has an Extraordinary ability, Planar Travel, that allows at-will greater teleport.

Grey Wolf
Bugger. I overlooked the Blot.

Okay, then Protean-MitD partially shifts into an Umbral Blot, then uses its Extraordinary Ability to Greater Teleport O-Chul and V. Still a huge coincidence that he picks that form and uses that ability for the very first time, but not inconceivable.

Good enough for me. Revise my guess to ANB > Protean.

[cheznet]

Sorry if someone else has already discussed this, but I noticed a minor detail that may or may not matter. During the escape in #661, MitD's eyes are glowing when he says escape. Contrast with another close-up of his eyes in #699, for example - during the escape scene, there's a little bit of yellow fuzz around the edges. That could just be a visual cue to show that he's using SOME sort of special ability, but given the developments in the comic lately, I was thinking this might actually be some sort of quiddity shenanigans. It obviously doesn't look exactly like the quiddities we're used to, but that could theoretically just be a product of the comic's changing artstyle - contrast #874, the last time we see Thor before the visual update (I think) with #998, the first time we see gods after the update (as far as I'm aware). Even though the gods are just being channeled in the latter example, it's consistent with the artstyle we see for the quiddities later on. Moreover, before the update, quiddities tended to closely mimic the shape of the god they were surrounding, just sort of as an expanded outline, which more or less matches the glowing of the MitD's eyes in the escape scene.

Now, I don't know enough about the monster manual to actually synthesize that information into a guess of any kind. To be honest, the more I looked into it, the less confident I became in the theory. It's probably much more likely that it was just visual shorthand for MitD's eyes glowing, and his eyes happen to be yellow. BUT if there are any specifically Norse creatures with divine ties that fit the bill, this might be a clue of some sort.

(Sorry if I missed this in the OP, less sorry if I missed it somewhere in the 16k+ posts in these threads. Also sorry for the lack of links, I'm too new to the forums post them.)

[Synesthesy]

Bugger. I overlooked the Blot.

Okay, then Protean-MitD partially shifts into an Umbral Blot, then uses its Extraordinary Ability to Greater Teleport O-Chul and V. Still a huge coincidence that he picks that form and uses that ability for the very first time, but not inconceivable.


The real problem about Greater Teleport is that 1) you need to know, even if not directly, where to teleport 2) the caster always teleport himself too, the teleport spell aren't "teleport others".

So we also need the Monster to know the place where V had just teleported the Azurites' Fleet, and that somehow the Monster stayed where he was (for example, that V casting Dimensional Anchor to Xykon and missing him, hit the Monster instead).

This rule bending, IMHO, should tell us that there is somewhere in a source book we don't know, a creature that is able to Wish (and alert, "escape" was imho directly the monster's wish, neither V's, who the mosnter doesn't care enough, nor O-Chul's, that is too badass to wish to run away instead of wishing to be able to fight again), either being directly the monster or being something the Protean can copy.
But at now, we don't know.

[Peelee]

Sorry if someone else has already discussed this, but I noticed a minor detail that may or may not matter. During the escape in #661, MitD's eyes are glowing when he says escape. Contrast with another close-up of his eyes in #699, for example - during the escape scene, there's a little bit of yellow fuzz around the edges. That could just be a visual cue to show that he's using SOME sort of special ability, but given the developments in the comic lately, I was thinking this might actually be some sort of quiddity shenanigans. It obviously doesn't look exactly like the quiddities we're used to, but that could theoretically just be a product of the comic's changing artstyle - contrast #874, the last time we see Thor before the visual update (I think) with #998, the first time we see gods after the update (as far as I'm aware). Even though the gods are just being channeled in the latter example, it's consistent with the artstyle we see for the quiddities later on. Moreover, before the update, quiddities tended to closely mimic the shape of the god they were surrounding, just sort of as an expanded outline, which more or less matches the glowing of the MitD's eyes in the escape scene.

Now, I don't know enough about the monster manual to actually synthesize that information into a guess of any kind. To be honest, the more I looked into it, the less confident I became in the theory. It's probably much more likely that it was just visual shorthand for MitD's eyes glowing, and his eyes happen to be yellow. BUT if there are any specifically Norse creatures with divine ties that fit the bill, this might be a clue of some sort.

(Sorry if I missed this in the OP, less sorry if I missed it somewhere in the 16k+ posts in these threads. Also sorry for the lack of links, I'm too new to the forums post them.)
Don't worry about links, we all know the restrictions for new users. Unfortunately, deities have issues. Several, and pretty big ones at that.


Section 3: Proposed Ideas


Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

Deity[spoiler]First, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.

[Quartz]

The fissure link in the Snorlax entry https://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/6/64/Fissure.png no longer works.

[Ruck]

I misphrased that. A protean with added templates for more psionic powers is the stretch I had in mind.

I honestly don't know how many templates the Protean would need to fit-- the SRD link in the FBS post describes it as psionic. Can someone who knows more than I do elaborate?


I think the ANB is a better candidate, based on its ability (also psionic FWIW) to teleport. That doesn't requires less fudging of the rules than a plane shift, and much less than acquiring a Wish ability through shape changing.

The ANB has a lot going for it (including some fluff, if Oona's description of MitD being literally that of a nightmare matters). But the whole "not actually yet published" aspect is a bigger negative to me than the artistic license of the Protean.


The real problem about Greater Teleport is that 1) you need to know, even if not directly, where to teleport 2) the caster always teleport himself too, the teleport spell aren't "teleport others".

So we also need the Monster to know the place where V had just teleported the Azurites' Fleet, and that somehow the Monster stayed where he was (for example, that V casting Dimensional Anchor to Xykon and missing him, hit the Monster instead).

This rule bending, IMHO, should tell us that there is somewhere in a source book we don't know, a creature that is able to Wish (and alert, "escape" was imho directly the monster's wish, neither V's, who the mosnter doesn't care enough, nor O-Chul's, that is too badass to wish to run away instead of wishing to be able to fight again), either being directly the monster or being something the Protean can copy.
But at now, we don't know.

As I understand it, one of the fudges used on the Greater Teleport explanation is that Vaarsuvius' stray Quickened Dimensional Anchor here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) actually hits MitD.

[Darth Paul]

The real problem about Greater Teleport is that 1) you need to know, even if not directly, where to teleport 2) the caster always teleport himself too, the teleport spell aren't "teleport others".

So we also need the Monster to know the place where V had just teleported the Azurites' Fleet, and that somehow the Monster stayed where he was (for example, that V casting Dimensional Anchor to Xykon and missing him, hit the Monster instead).

This rule bending, IMHO, should tell us that there is somewhere in a source book we don't know, a creature that is able to Wish (and alert, "escape" was imho directly the monster's wish, neither V's, who the mosnter doesn't care enough, nor O-Chul's, that is too badass to wish to run away instead of wishing to be able to fight again), either being directly the monster or being something the Protean can copy.
But at now, we don't know.
As for O-Chul and V arriving at the Azurite's beach, that's explicable by MitD being either the ANB or a Protean. Both have psionic mind-affecting powers. The Nightmare Beast can touch the subconscious mind of its prey, according to the fluff text, and the Protean explicitly has the Detect Thoughts power at will. Either could be used to get the location of the beach V just left (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) from V's mind, along with the knowledge that their allies were there.

As far as I can see, rules must be bent either way to account for the Escape mechanics. However, we already have two potential explanations for O-Chul and V being sent away while Monster-san stays, without invoking a Wish effect:


Take into account:
MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)

* EDIT: Ninja'd by Ruck!
The third way, as I pointed out, is to allow Protean-MitD to assimilate a Wish ability from another creature. But mechanically, we don't have to do this, if we accept either ANB using its psionic teleport (stretched a little to cover two people) or Protean-MitB shifting into a Blot with Greater Teleport ability. In both cases, V's Dimensional Anchor missed Xykon and hit MitD, so his Teleport only sent V and O-Chul, leaving him anchored in the cage.

It's a better option than Plane Shift, I think. And much better than bending the rules to allow the Monster to assimilate a Wish- unless, again, we come across something that has Wish as a noon-spell-like-ability. But I admit to knowing too little about the monster manuals. I had overlooked the Umbral Blot link until Gray_Wolf_c pointed it out, and that was the key to my endorsing the Protean. So my mind is open to something with a Wish ability too.

[NobleCuriosity]

I'll just re-post my thoughts on the Protean when I shared them in the last thread:

That nails a lot of my own thoughts. While you've already convinced Darth Paul on the eye issue, I'd like to add another few ideas to your roster of "Eyes/mouth being constant isn't a problem quotes," for future reference (I mentioned it in an edit of an older post after people had already added many more posts to the thread, so I'm not sure anybody noticed it. Wondering if I should repost the whole thing):

1) Rich probably cares quite a bit about conveying the monster’s expression well and consistently for character purposes, which the shifting would mess with.

2) In the first two panels of MitD's first appearance in #23, he literally DOES have the one and only other (large) eye type Rich drew back then. And then it changes to what we're familiar with. Doing it too often would be way too big a hint, but just once at the very start feels like a kind of appropriate foreshadowing (and also a great joke), even if it was only such in hindsight.

3) Even if the previous was truly just a joke, having the voice and/or eyes being the only constants for a shapeshifter is a pretty common storytelling convention nowadays. I can't link, but you can look up the TvTropes pages "Voices are Mental" and "Eyes are Mental" (which reference each other specifically) to get lots of examples.



EDIT: I've decided to recopy my explanation for my Protean > ANB guess, as I edited it in after people had already posted a bunch of stuff (dumb, I know), and I consequently don't think many people saw it. Here it is:

My reasoning: Like many people, I think that Protean is the best fit to MitD's abilities. The main knocks against it that I’ve seen are that 1) the constant shapeshifting should change the mouth and eye position/type and 2) The Escape requires a lot of things to go just right: MitD has to have been hit by the stray Dimensional Anchor, the comic not requiring teleport casters to touch their passengers has to be a canon difference and not just artistic license for panel composition, a really lucky roll has to deliver O-Chul and V to the right location, and MitD must have shifted into the exact right creature (and one that needed to be converted via a means that we’re not sure has been used). Then he must not be able to figure out how to do it again with the roaches or hobgoblin later.

I don’t think 1) is a serious objection. Having the eyes and/or voice being the only constants for a shapeshifter is a pretty common storytelling convention, AND we can’t see them in detail because of the shadow, AND most eyes/mouths look pretty similar in Rich’s original art style, AND Rich probably cares more about conveying the monster’s expression well and consistently than about giving a clue that would likely be too big of a hint before the time comes that could be explained away in other means (and also a bunch of stuff that is listed on this page of this thread a bit below). 2) Is a more serious concern, but I think that the fact that the Ootsverse literally ignores probability if the results would be significantly dramatic (and what happens was vastly more dramatic than Xykon simply succeeding) explains the teleport roll functioning, the MitD only pulling it off at the absolute last possible second, and possibly the not being able to repeat it at all later (which is also explained by the somewhat but not completely uncontrollable shapeshifting); also, as noted a bit later in this thread, the Protean's Detect Thoughts power could have let it get the knowledge of the beachfront ally location from V's mind. Everything else there we do have an explanation for, and now that we’ve had a psionic character (Lauren) as a nontrivial plot point and not just 1-shot jokes, the psionic conversion seems much more plausible.

And the Protean explains the circus scene SO much better than anything else. It explains how MitD could just stand there doing nothing and still utterly amaze everyone, how sight of him could be both disgusting to the point of nausea (after they’ve seen it, not before, in my mind making scent or auras a less likely explanation) yet eerily beautiful to some, and how MitD is incredibly and uniquely unrecognizable (note that the wizard doesn't just say "I don't know what it is", he says the much stronger "I've never seen anything like it." A "not that weird for monsters" body like the Glabrezu's 4 armed spiky humanoid form or the Uvuudaum's "6 legs on a torso plus a head" doesn't explain that comment as well as the Protean's constant shapechanging does, which presumably gives a much more unique look).

The last thing that bothers me just a little is Rich replying to that question of “Could any species be worth the wait for the MitD reveal?” with such a confident “Yes.” Recall how Redcloak is so quick to take him on to Team Evil (in spite of Redcloak’s preference for Evil teammates and less important preference for Lawfulness), the whole talk with O-Chul about how MitD is a “good man,” and in particular that O-Chul thinks MitD wouldn’t believe him if he told MitD what he was. All that plus the constant jokes about how his personality makes him a lot less scary than he "should" be, and having to stay in the darkness which smells suspiciously of double meanings about fear of the unknown and lack of understanding of other cultures and stereotypes about dangerous monsters blah blah blah in addition to being a joke. I can’t help but feel like MitD is intended (among other things) to be a big part of Rich’s critique of the alignment system and what it means to be a monster, with MitD’s species and looks in his big reveal coming in sharp and shocking contrast to what we, with our additional information, know about his personality and choices. Him having a species alignment listed as “always chaotic neutral” that he is actually fairly close to (though maybe good) just doesn’t seem to say much. MitD’s identity has been hidden to serve an eventual surprise for over a decade now. What about MitD being revealed to be a Protean is emotionally charged? Why is that a secret worth keeping for so very long, for a reveal which is most certainly not just going to be a joke (as I recall Rich mentioned it as a dramatic moment he was very much looking forward to)? The best I can come up with is that the shapeshifting is a literal symbol for how people-any kind, no matter how seemingly monstrous-can change, that appearance doesn’t always reflect reality, and that thus we shouldn’t have games that encourage the assumption that everything that looks sufficiently different or “monstrous” needs to be killed. But you know what fits that better, which makes it that much more of a genuine shock for the readerbase? A species whose alignment is listed as “Always Evil”—with a fiendish race in particular stunning us by breaking the last assumption about “always evil” creatures that Rich has allowed to hold in his comic (though it’s possible he genuinely wants to allow that one.), a fittingly climactic moment worthy of a decade of buildup that will spark a lot of discussion.

Note that overall I still think the shapeshifting symbolism thing is likely enough, and that MitD is a Protean. But this does give me some pause and doubt.

I would say the ANB is also a good fit to MitD’s abilities (though not as good at explaining the circus scene), and it’s always-chaotic-evil species alignment fits with my doubts. But having to have had an advanced copy sent to Rich is a pretty big ding.

The doubts and the escape scene almost make me want to pick the Glabrezu or Uvuudaum in 3rd. But for the Glabrezu, CR 13 just seems too low to be worth Xykon’s or Redcloak’s time, or to be a credible threat to the Oots; and for the Uvuudaum, literally not having eyes or a mouth at all is just a bit too much for me to buy Rich saying "nothing before then contradicts it."

[Darth Paul]

Here's a link for you, NobleCuriosity. Eyes Are Mental (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EyesAreMental) You've appealed to my love of TV Tropes, which is the site that led me here in the first place, after all. :smallsmile:

[lio45]

It's funny you should mention that...

Why does section 1i of the FAQ not- in your opinion- cover the existence and nature of the "recognition debate", and sum up the three main positions? If not, what needs to be added? And I'm curious why you think that specific comment implies that the Monster is some type of "celebrity" creature?
Maybe you should read the last... ten-ish pages of the previous thread then? :P

1i fails to mention that Rich's quote gives us a reason to believe MitD is not an obscure monster. It actually says the opposite! (A section of text which, as I said, likely predates that newish-in-the-context-of-these-threads quote from Rich, and has never been revised since that quote got out.)

And further down, in 4, there's also content that implies the search is about continuing to look in dusty official sourcebooks.

Those are examples of things that I think should be updated. I've covered it pretty clearly already (I stopped when Crusher asked us all to drop everything but the next thread name suggestions and voting, but the discussion was still ongoing.)



I take it that the reveal will be satisfying in the context of "Those of you who have spent 11 going on 12 threads now trying to analyze what the Monster is, will not be disappointed when you find out. You will be slapping your foreheads and saying 'Of course! That explains everything!'"
"The answer", not "the reveal". That's entirely different. As I've explained many times already.

Plus, it seems pretty clear that this quote was Rich speaking to his general readership, not just to the incredibly non-representative and exceedingly tiny fraction of it that frequents this thread.




What does your suggested change affect? "Celebrity" monsters have been suggested, and in droves. One have met the criteria. Saying "hey this thing that was never disallowed and has had a lot of people engaging in is allowed bytheway!" does, IMO, significantly less than you think it does.One effect of my suggested change is that we're going to stop seeing people showing up in these threads regularly to explain to the community that Rich's quotes imply that MitD's species has to be "famous" / "recognizable". That's one of the main purposes of the Introduction Posts: they're there to cover such high-frequency recurrent things so that newcomers see they've already been considered/addressed, and stop bringing them up (or at least, don't bring them up as often; i.e. only to discuss them further, as opposed to bringing them up believing they're the first ones to have thought of it).

Case in point, a mere few posts ago, we have yet again someone whose username I haven't yet seen who is bringing up for the umpteenth time:


The last thing that bothers me just a little is Rich replying to that question of “Could any species be worth the wait for the MitD reveal?” with such a confident “Yes.”

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe you should read the last... ten-ish pages of the previous thread then? :P

1i fails to mention that Rich's quote gives us a reason to believe MitD is not an obscure monster. It actually says the opposite! (A section of text which, as I said, likely predates that newish-in-the-context-of-these-threads quote from Rich, and has never been revised since that quote got out.)

The author quotes say nothing of the sort, despite your insistence that they do.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

One effect of my suggested change is that we're going to stop seeing people showing up in these threads regularly to explain to the community that Rich's quotes imply that MitD's species has to be "famous" / "recognizable".

One thing I've noted is that such people never actually suggest something. And, I have to note one again, that this perceived problem hasn't stopped anybody from suggesting "famous/recognizable" possibilities, as evidenced by those extensive lists.

[Darth Paul]

Maybe you should read the last... ten-ish pages of the previous thread then? :P

Well... I was there for that debate, which we're continuing. I'm trying to talk you into giving me something concrete on your side.

1i fails to mention that Rich's quote gives us a reason to believe MitD is not an obscure monster. It actually says the opposite! (A section of text which, as I said, likely predates that newish-in-the-context-of-these-threads quote from Rich, and has never been revised since that quote got out.)

And again I ask- how does his quote give us a reason to believe that? That's your highly subjective interpretation. I don't read anything in the quote that even hints at how "famous" MitD is. (Btw, since the "answer" will come by way of "the reveal", I use those interchangeably.)

And further down, in 4, there's also content that implies the search is about continuing to look in dusty official sourcebooks.

Are you talking about this part of section 4?

Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?
Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher, in the space of an afternoon, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates, and then repeated the feat a few pages later. There remains a lot of material to explore.

Because right underneath there's

Does MitD have to be a D&D creature?
No, not at all. Rich has never said that MitD is a D&D creature, only that, whatever he is, he didn't make his species up.
Which I think says as well as anything that nobody is restricted to looking in dusty sourcebooks.

Last but not least,

One effect of my suggested change is that we're going to stop seeing people showing up in these threads regularly to explain to the community that Rich's quotes imply that MitD's species has to be "famous" / "recognizable". That's one of the main purposes of the Introduction Posts: they're there to cover such high-frequency recurrent things so that newcomers see they've already been considered/addressed, and stop bringing them up (or at least, don't bring them up as often; i.e. only to discuss them further, as opposed to bringing them up believing they're the first ones to have thought of it).

Case in point, a mere few posts ago, we have yet again someone whose username I haven't yet seen who is bringing up for the umpteenth time:
No matter what is in the FAQ, we can't be sure new posters will read them top to bottom, or memorize everything in them. I myself missed a fairly huge clue contained in one of the links, and fessed up to it. And I think including a statement that the author has implied that MitD is of a species that is "famous/recognizable" when he has done no such thing, would simply be misleading. Unless, and I extend this invitation again, you can explain HOW Rich implies that MitD is famous or recognizable.

Reading NobleCuriosity's post again, moreover, it had nothing whatsoever to do with how "famous" MitD might be. It was a brilliant commentary on how the possibility that MitD is a shapeshifter could be a commentary on the alignment system and character evolution, and how that would make a very satisfying reveal from a character perspective. How would adding a section on the fame of the character species affect that?

[woweedd]

So, something I just picked up on. So, when a character is injured, there's a visual display, and, since MITD has no observable features, damage to himt ends ot be displayed by his umbrella's condition, as in the Gate explosion. Here's the thing, though: Look at the last panel of this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) Despite the fact that the area they just went through contained, as mentioned in the following strip, monsters tough enough to give XYKON actual XP, MITD, looking at his umbrella, isn't even slightly injured. We've always known he's tough, but that ake sit to a whole new level. Just an interesting note.

[Crusher]

Good enough for me. Revise my guess to ANB > Protean.

Sure thing.

Also, congrats on joining me as the only other person to change their guess 3 times!


So, something I just picked up on. So, when a character is injured, there's a visual display, and, since MITD has no observable features, damage to himt ends ot be displayed by his umbrella's condition, as in the Gate explosion. Here's the thing, though: Look at the last panel of this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) Despite the fact that the area they just went through contained, as mentioned in the following strip, monsters tough enough to give XYKON actual XP, MITD, looking at his umbrella, isn't even slightly injured. We've always known he's tough, but that ake sit to a whole new level. Just an interesting note.

MitD might also have excellent regeneration abilities.

[Darth Paul]

Sure thing.

Also, congrats on joining me as the only other person to change their guess 3 times!

We're a small but elite group. And stay tuned for future developments, guess number 4 may be coming one day...

MitD might also have excellent regeneration abilities.
Protean: regeneration 50 (!!!!!)
Uvuudaum: regen 5, plus fast healing 20 (whatever the difference is)
according to the stats I was able to find anyway

[b_jonas]

woweedd: Maybe. Or maybe he suffered so much damage that Redcloak had to heal him already before that panel. He complains about having to keep his party members alive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) in the next strip. (The same complaint as Malack and Durkon exchange in #735 second and third panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html), by the way.)

[D.One]

We're a small but elite group. And stay tuned for future developments, guess number 4 may be coming one day...

Protean: regeneration 50 (!!!!!)
Uvuudaum: regen 5, plus fast healing 20 (whatever the difference is)
according to the stats I was able to find anyway

Fast healing is just that: healing. The creature takes damage, and than it starts healing at said rate per round.

Regeneration is a bit more complicated: all the damage a creature with Regen takes is nonlethal damage, except for the types of damage on its description (typically fire and acid, but the writers of Epic Level Handbook didn't specify what are the Proteans vulnerable against). The number is the amount of nonlethal damage it heals per round. So, for example, a Troll hit with a sword will take nonlethal damage and will probably never really die from it, but it would de damaged normally form fire, and his regen wouldn't cure that damage.

[NobleCuriosity]

One effect of my suggested change is that we're going to stop seeing people showing up in these threads regularly to explain to the community that Rich's quotes imply that MitD's species has to be "famous" / "recognizable". That's one of the main purposes of the Introduction Posts: they're there to cover such high-frequency recurrent things so that newcomers see they've already been considered/addressed, and stop bringing them up (or at least, don't bring them up as often; i.e. only to discuss them further, as opposed to bringing them up believing they're the first ones to have thought of it).

Case in point, a mere few posts ago, we have yet again someone whose username I haven't yet seen who is bringing up for the umpteenth time:


The last thing that bothers me just a little is Rich replying to that question of “Could any species be worth the wait for the MitD reveal?” with such a confident “Yes.”


I was not arguing that the MitD had to be recognizable or famous at all (and neither word, nor any synonym of them, appears in my post), and find it very disingenuous of you to suggest that to try and make your point. As I hope will be clear from the context reproduced below that you sliced that out of, my point was that it would be more climactic and thematic to have the MitD come from an "always evil" species, which gives me some (but not much) pause on the chaotic neutral Protean.




The last thing that bothers me just a little is Rich replying to that question of “Could any species be worth the wait for the MitD reveal?” with such a confident “Yes.” Recall how Redcloak is so quick to take him on to Team Evil (in spite of Redcloak’s preference for Evil teammates and less important preference for Lawfulness), the whole talk with O-Chul about how MitD is a “good man,” and in particular that O-Chul thinks MitD wouldn’t believe him if he told MitD what he was. All that plus the constant jokes about how his personality makes him a lot less scary than he "should" be, and having to stay in the darkness which smells suspiciously of double meanings about fear of the unknown and lack of understanding of other cultures and stereotypes about dangerous monsters blah blah blah in addition to being a joke. I can’t help but feel like MitD is intended (among other things) to be a big part of Rich’s critique of the alignment system and what it means to be a monster, with MitD’s species and looks in his big reveal coming in sharp and shocking contrast to what we, with our additional information, know about his personality and choices. Him having a species alignment listed as “always chaotic neutral” that he is actually fairly close to (though maybe good) just doesn’t seem to say much. MitD’s identity has been hidden to serve an eventual surprise for over a decade now. What about MitD being revealed to be a Protean is emotionally charged? Why is that a secret worth keeping for so very long, for a reveal which is most certainly not just going to be a joke (as I recall Rich mentioned it as a dramatic moment he was very much looking forward to)? The best I can come up with is that the shapeshifting is a literal symbol for how people-any kind, no matter how seemingly monstrous-can change, that appearance doesn’t always reflect reality, and that thus we shouldn’t have games that encourage the assumption that everything that looks sufficiently different or “monstrous” needs to be killed. But you know what fits that better, which makes it that much more of a genuine shock for the readerbase? A species whose alignment is listed as “Always Evil”—with a fiendish race in particular stunning us by breaking the last assumption about “always evil” creatures that Rich has allowed to hold in his comic (though it’s possible he genuinely wants to allow that one.), a fittingly climactic moment worthy of a decade of buildup that will spark a lot of discussion.

Note that overall I still think the shapeshifting symbolism thing is likely enough, and that MitD is a Protean. But this does give me some pause and doubt.

I would say the ANB is also a good fit to MitD’s abilities (though not as good at explaining the circus scene), and it’s always-chaotic-evil species alignment fits with my doubts. But having to have had an advanced copy sent to Rich is a pretty big ding.

The doubts and the escape scene almost make me want to pick the Glabrezu or Uvuudaum in 3rd. But for the Glabrezu, CR 13 just seems too low to be worth Xykon’s or Redcloak’s time, or to be a credible threat to the Oots; and for the Uvuudaum, literally not having eyes or a mouth at all is just a bit too much for me to buy Rich saying "nothing before then contradicts it."

[b_jonas]

In #178, when Vaarsuvius was polymorphed, she mentions three spells she can still cast. She uses two of those right in the same adventure, but she hasn't used Hold Portal yet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html) This was after #100, so the Giant was already planning ahead for the plot. Is this a foreshadowing that Vaarsuvius using Hold Portal will be plot-central at one point in the story? Or the opposite, there'll be a plot point where Vaarsuvius should cast Hold Portal, but she doesn't have it prepared because she thinks it's useless. In that case, could this be connected to the MitD, who can't see the gate that Vaarsuvius is trying to Hold? As a bonus, the illusion of a door from #565 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0565.html) could be connected too: since the MitD can't see gates, he'd automatically disbelieve an illusion of a door. Elan has already cast an illusion of a stone wall once, he could try to stop someone with a gate as well.

[woweedd]

In #178, when Vaarsuvius was polymorphed, she mentions three spells she can still cast. She uses two of those right in the same adventure, but she hasn't used Hold Portal yet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html) This was after #100, so the Giant was already planning ahead for the plot. Is this a foreshadowing that Vaarsuvius using Hold Portal will be plot-central at one point in the story? Or the opposite, there'll be a plot point where Vaarsuvius should cast Hold Portal, but she doesn't have it prepared because she thinks it's useless. In that case, could this be connected to the MitD, who can't see the gate that Vaarsuvius is trying to Hold? As a bonus, the illusion of a door from #565 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0565.html) could be connected too: since the MitD can't see gates, he'd automatically disbelieve an illusion of a door. Elan has already cast an illusion of a stone wall once, he could try to stop someone with a gate as well.
MITD doesn’t have an inability to see gates in general, I don’t think

[b_jonas]

I just bought the new grayscale supplementary OOTS book, Good Deeds Gone Unpunished. I don't think the Giant would give us any important spoilers about the MitD in that book, but he certainly enjoys teasing us a little.

There are three relevant things from the book that I want to quickly mention here.
The second story, Scruff and Tumble, has a tiny psionic elephant beetle monster that has a Dimension Door ability. It uses that ability way lots of times on the same day, and uses it in three different ways: teleporting only itself, teleporting itself and another creature, or teleporting another creature only. The monster's species isn't named in the comic, but the previous thread says that it might be a "Carbuncle" or a "Diamondillo".
In the same story, we find out that Redcloak and the MitD knew about this monster. The monster was captive for some reason, and Redcloak blames the MitD with it breaking free. It's not clear if this was a monster that Redcloak wanted to experiment with and the MitD isn't even supposed to have touched, or instead a pet that the MitD was supposed to be responsible for. All this happened before the Escape scene. If the MitD is a monster that can shapeshift or imitate the abilities of other monsters, then we'll have to consider if this is somehow related to the Escape. We'll also have to think again about Redcloak's statements, such as when he says that the MitD has broken his Power Ranger figures. The MitD is innocent in the elephant beetle's disappearance, so Redcloak could be wrong about some of his other claims too.
In the final story, we find out that the Gate spell, which calls an extraplanar creature for aid, exists in the OOTS world. Since this is a level 9 spell, it's not true-cast, instead a cleric uses a Candle of Invocation for casting it. I only mention this in the MitD thread for two reasons: firstly because section 1g mentions this spell, and secondly because the magic Candle isn't used up for casting this spell, despite that the rules say it should be, which is one more house rules to magic in the Stickiverse.

I'll update the first post to include Good Deeds Gone Unpunished later. Then I'll have to re-read the parts of the previous MitD thread that are related to this book.

[Peelee]

In the final story, we find out that the Gate spell, which calls an extraplanar creature for aid, exists in the OOTS world.

Theory: if the MitD had been present, he wouldn't have seen it.

[Ruck]

We already knew Gate existed because Dorukan cast it in Start of Darkness.

[Kish]

I'm not sure where the idea that any core spell might not exist in the OotS world comes from.

(Other than misreading/misquoting what Rich said about True Resurrection--which also is specifically established as existing in the OotS world, since Haley complained about needing to get someone to cast it for Roy.)

[Peelee]

I'm not sure where the idea that any core spell might not exist in the OotS world comes from.

(Other than misreading/misquoting what Rich said about True Resurrection--which also is specifically established as existing in the OotS world, since Haley complained about needing to get someone to cast it for Roy.)

To be fair, knowing about something and it existing are different (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). To be more fair, of course, psions aren't core to begin with.

[Emanick]

Theory: if the MitD had been present, he wouldn't have seen it.

Maybe you're joking, but he doesn't seem to have trouble seeing the Gate Redcloak casts here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).

[b_jonas]

We already knew Gate existed because Dorukan cast it in Start of Darkness. Oh, you're right. I totally forgot that. And the MitD was close enough that he may have seen it. Also, Dorukan summoned way more angels through it than should be possible according to the spell description.

[Crusher]

Oh, you're right. I totally forgot that. And the MitD was close enough that he may have seen it. Also, Dorukan summoned way more angels through it than should be possible according to the spell description.

He was an epic-level caster, could have been some funky epic-version of Gate.

[InvisibleBison]

Oh, you're right. I totally forgot that. And the MitD was close enough that he may have seen it. Also, Dorukan summoned way more angels through it than should be possible according to the spell description.

It's possible that he used the planar travel version of Gate to bring to the Material Plane a group of angels he had previously arranged to be available should he need them.

[Emanick]

He was an epic-level caster, could have been some funky epic-version of Gate.

Possibly, but it would be weird if it had the same name as the Gate spell. You'd think it would be called "Greater Gate" or "Epic Gate" or something.


It's possible that he used the planar travel version of Gate to bring to the Material Plane a group of angels he had previously arranged to be available should he need them.

This, on the other hand, makes sense, at least to me. I buy it.

[Quebbster]

It's possible that he used the planar travel version of Gate to bring to the Material Plane a group of angels he had previously arranged to be available should he need them.

He was besieged by goblins and a lich. Makes sense he'd be prepared to go to war if needed. Good call.

[Kish]

To be fair, knowing about something and it existing are different (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). To be more fair, of course, psions aren't core to begin with.
What Haley says is that they'd need a 17th-level cleric to cast True Resurrection, not that they'd need to find out if True Resurrection exists in the OotS world.

[b_jonas]

I just found that a hobgoblin called Kodrog the Slayer explicitly says in #259 that he knows what the MitD is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html). (He doesn't tell us.) This wasn't on my list until today.

[Qwertystop]

I just found that a hobgoblin called Kodrog the Slayer explicitly says in #259 that he knows what the MitD is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html). (He doesn't tell us.) This wasn't on my list until today.

It's come up before; the problem is that (even apart from the humor value) his statement could:
A: Be completed by a physical/visual description ("a constantly-shifting blob of parts", "a giant froggy thing", "a lizard-squirrel")
B: Be wrong due to a misunderstanding.

[D.One]

It's come up before; the problem is that (even apart from the humor value) his statement could:
A: Be completed by a physical/visual description ("a constantly-shifting blob of parts", "a giant froggy thing", "a lizard-squirrel")
B: Be wrong due to a misunderstanding.

If we could only cast Speak with Dead on his corpse...

[Silver2195]

The entry for the ANB in the OP leaves out a pretty big con: its eyes are the wrong color!

[Peelee]

The entry for the ANB in the OP leaves out a pretty big con: its eyes are the wrong color!

New theory: the MitD is colorblind. And also colorblindness totally works that way.

Which reminds me, I need to lodge a formal complaint for to lack of placement of "Italian Protean" as an FBS (or at least light-hearted-ideas) contender. The vagueness is our ally, say I!

[Throknor]

The entry for the ANB in the OP leaves out a pretty big con: its eyes are the wrong color!

Maybe it's in a different portion, but the MITD first appeared before Rich determined what it was. Changing the eye color later would have been a dead giveaway. If it matters I would expect it will be explained as being filtered through the magical darkness or something.

That the eyes can be seen at all through the darkness is artistic license for anything that doesn't have 'glowing yellow eyes' as a characteristic. Being the wrong color is minor in comparison (in my opinion).

[Ruck]

Maybe it's in a different portion, but the MITD first appeared before Rich determined what it was. Changing the eye color later would have been a dead giveaway. If it matters I would expect it will be explained as being filtered through the magical darkness or something.

That the eyes can be seen at all through the darkness is artistic license for anything that doesn't have 'glowing yellow eyes' as a characteristic. Being the wrong color is minor in comparison (in my opinion).

Same for why if MitD is a Protean, the eyes aren't constantly moving around and/or changing in number.


New theory: the MitD is colorblind. And also colorblindness totally works that way.

Which reminds me, I need to lodge a formal complaint for to lack of placement of "Italian Protean" as an FBS (or at least light-hearted-ideas) contender. The vagueness is our ally, say I!

But doctor, I am Monstroliacci.

[Listening Here]

I’m not going to suggest a monster since my monster lore has faded with time.

But a question - is there a creature who has the ability to read / see thoughts passively?

It may be a crazy idea but if MitD had the ability to read thoughts unknowingly to even himself it could explain how he is so articulate regarding goblinoid species politics. I’m sure Oona has long thought of the topic. It could explain how he knows what the Astral plane feels like and looks like without having gone there himself since Xykon would have been thinking about it. I imagine V was picturing the beach and V’s friends when MitD whisked them away. Learning Go would be much easier by peering into O’Chul’s head.

And if it was a passive ability it wouldn’t necessarily have an illustrated activation like glowing eyes or auras.

But I don’t know if such an ability or creature exists. As mentioned, monster lore is mostly forgotten but my memory on how pscionics work is all but forgotten.

Going back to lurking.

[Quartz]

But a question - is there a creature who has the ability to read / see thoughts passively?

You mean like a doppelganger?

[halfeye]

Maybe it's in a different portion, but the MITD first appeared before Rich determined what it was. Changing the eye color later would have been a dead giveaway. If it matters I would expect it will be explained as being filtered through the magical darkness or something.

I remember the Giant having said something to the effect that the illustations made prior to the decision matched the monster that was eventually decided upon. To me, that would mean the eyes were a compatible colour and in compatible places, which to me pretty much rules out the protean. I'm aware that this is disputed, and I am not aiming to restart that, but equally I am not going to let it be thought that the contrary position is unanimous.

[Ghosty]

I'm sure you all covered it at the time, but in rereading #1041, when asked why Team Evil can't go into a second dungeon that day, RedCloak makes the statement, "Keeping both undead and living party members standing through a bunch of fights in a row burns through way too many spells."

Can we infer from this that the MITD must be either living or undead? I.E., not a construct?

It's going to be a little sad when the Giant makes the reveal. This thread has been so much fun to follow.

[Ghosty]

Oh, and I don't seem to be able to edit my posts when accessing the forum on this device, but can we infer anything by either RedCloak's Cure or Inflict Critical Wounds not affecting the MITD? I guess, as many of you have, that its regeneration could just be so high that it fully heals through in the time it took to walk out of the dungeon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

is there a creature who has the ability to read / see thoughts passively?

As far as I know, detect thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectThoughts.htm) is always at least at-will.


Can we infer from this that the MITD must be either living or undead? I.E., not a construct?

We already knew this for the fact that he eats and desires to eat (some constructs might be capable of putting food into their mouths, but don't gain anything from it, and most can't even do that).

More damningly for your scenario, RC might not have the ability to keep a construct alive and/or not care about MitD in tip-top shape (he obviously wasn't in need of it at the end), so he might only be talking about Oona/himself and Xykon in that declaration.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

I remember the Giant having said something to the effect that the illustations made prior to the decision matched the monster that was eventually decided upon.

All his quotes on the MitD are available in the OP. I think this is what you are looking for:


nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.

[Peelee]

All his quotes on the MitD are available in the OP. I think this is what you are looking for:

And even if he had said the specific illustration thing, that wouldn't rule out protean, since all instances of it could have been emulating two-eyed creatures. It's impossible to rule the protea out by saying it's always depicted with two eyes, because the vast, vast majority of creatures have two eyes. At the absolute worst, it's playing to probability, which is still totally cool with the monster being a protean.

[Keltest]

And even if he had said the specific illustration thing, that wouldn't rule out protean, since all instances of it could have been emulating two-eyed creatures. It's impossible to rule the protea out by saying it's always depicted with two eyes, because the vast, vast majority of creatures have two eyes. At the absolute worst, it's playing to probability, which is still totally cool with the monster being a protean.

As Grey Wolf is fond of pointing out, the Protean does not emulate a single specific creature at any given time, but is rather an amorphous blob of different creature parts constantly shifting in and out. There is no guarantee it would even have a complete face made of one creature.

[Peelee]

As Grey Wolf is fond of pointing out, the Protean does not emulate a single specific creature at any given time, but is rather an amorphous blob of different creature parts constantly shifting in and out. There is no guarantee it would even have a complete face made of one creature.

True, but the point remains. Whenever someone tries to claim that the eyes rule out a protean, the immediate logical response is "what if at that time it was emulating two eyes?"

[Keltest]

True, but the point remains. Whenever someone tries to claim that the eyes rule out a protean, the immediate logical response is "what if at that time it was emulating two eyes?"

Then I would say that would be cheating. The morphing is an intrinsic and defining characteristic for the Protean. Its ability to stop doing so is extremely limited. While it is not literally impossible, it is so unlikely across such a long period of time as to be functionally so.

[Peelee]

Then I would say that would be cheating. The morphing is an intrinsic and defining characteristic for the Protean. Its ability to stop doing so is extremely limited. While it is not literally impossible, it is so unlikely across such a long period of time as to be functionally so.

I would counter with "but it's not stopping. It's constantly shifting, at every time we see it, it happens to have two eyes at that moment." Absolutely nothing about that indicates cheating, and assuming it is a protean, any instance of it having more or fewer eyes would be an instant giveaway, so it would obviously not happen.

[Keltest]

I would counter with "but it's not stopping. It's constantly shifting, at every time we see it, it happens to have two eyes at that moment." Absolutely nothing about that indicates cheating, and assuming it is a protean, any instance of it having more or fewer eyes would be an instant giveaway, so it would obviously not happen.

And I say, so what? How is that kind of contrivance not cheating? We've seen the MITD frequently enough now, and over a long enough period of time, that we would have seen something get through even if he were trying to hold a consistent face for the entirety of his on screen existence.

[Peelee]

And I say, so what? How is that kind of contrivance not cheating?

Instead of asking how it's now cheating, instead ask how is it cheating? You're the one claiming it can only do that if it holds a form or stops shifting. If you insist on that, then sure, it's cheating. By the same token, I can insist that you're saying "Peelee is so sexy" and then kindly tell you that sorry, I'm married, and just ignore the fact that only I am insisting that you're saying that despite it not happening at all.

[Keltest]

Instead of asking how it's now cheating, instead ask how is it cheating? You're the one claiming it can only do that if it holds a form or stops shifting. If you insist on that, then sure, it's cheating. By the same token, I can insist that you're saying "Peelee is so sexy" and then kindly tell you that sorry, I'm married, and just ignore the fact that only I am insisting that you're saying that despite it not happening at all.

Um, its cheating because what it takes in order for it to deliberately maintain a specific shape has actual rules with limits and stuff? It needs to take a move action in order to maintain a form. It would, for example, be unable to maintain its form while running. Any time it uses its move action and standard action or uses a full round action would cause it to start boiling again.

[Peelee]

Um, its cheating because what it takes in order for it to deliberately maintain a specific shape has actual rules with limits and stuff? It needs to take a move action in order to maintain a form. It would, for example, be unable to maintain its form while running. Any time it uses its move action and standard action or uses a full round action would cause it to start boiling again.

Again, you are the only one insisting it has to maintain its form. Remove that. Assume it's never spending a move action to maintain its form. There is zero maintaining form going on. What it is doing I do not know, but maintaining its form it is not.

Now that that's out of the way, please, point me to the rule where it must always be changing the number of eyes. I'd very much like to read it, because as it appears to me, it could constantly be shifting forms while always having two eyes. Not maintaining two eyes, before you start to think that, just in case the first part of this reply has slipped your mind. Constnalty shifting such that there are always two eyes, at least while it's on camera. Perfectly plausible. Perfectly by the rules.

And, just to be sure, it's still not maintaining its form. Please stop insisting that has to be a prerequisite. Of course it's going to be cheating if you start out with, "lets assume its cheating." Stop assuming that.

[Keltest]

Again, you are the only one insisting it has to maintain its form. Remove that. Assume it's never spending a move action to maintain its form. There is zero maintaining form going on. What it is doing I do not know, but maintaining its form it is not.

Now that that's out of the way, please, point me to the rule where it must always be changing the number of eyes. I'd very much like to read it, because as it appears to me, it could constantly be shifting forms while always having two eyes. Not maintaining two eyes, before you start to think that, just in case the first part of this reply has slipped your mind. Constnalty shifting such that there are always two eyes, at least while it's on camera. Perfectly plausible. Perfectly by the rules.

And, just to be sure, it's still not maintaining its form. Please stop insisting that has to be a prerequisite. Of course it's going to be cheating if you start out with, "lets assume its cheating." Stop assuming that.

Its form is described as "constantly boiling". Now I don't know when the last time you looked at a pot of boiling water was, but im reasonably certain that you know what that looks like. If you told me there was a section of the surface of a boiling pot of water that was continually in the same place, I would call you a liar. Its not so much that theres a specific rule saying it cant have two eyes so much as it being definitionally impossible for it to be consistent like that without it being deliberate.

So yes, it actually is a prerequisite. It cannot have a consistent form without trying.

[Peelee]

Its form is described as "constantly boiling". Now I don't know when the last time you looked at a pot of boiling water was, but im reasonably certain that you know what that looks like. If you told me there was a section of the surface of a boiling pot of water that was continually in the same place, I would call you a liar.

If I took a bunch of pictures and only chose to show you the ones that had a bubble in one specific spot, it would still be constantly boiling despite your insistence that it should always be different. Assuming it is a protean, the Giant is showing us only the moments where the metaphorical bubbles are in one specific spot. That does not mean the metaphorical pot ain't boiling, it just means you're being shown something deliberately manipulated.

[Keltest]

If I took a bunch of pictures and only chose to show you the ones that had a bubble in one specific spot, it would still be constantly boiling despite your insistence that it should always be different. Assuming it is a protean, the Giant is showing us only the moments where the metaphorical bubbles are in one specific spot. That does not mean the metaphorical pot ain't boiling, it just means you're being shown something deliberately manipulated.

At which point were back to having seen enough pictures that such should be functionally impossible. It would be cheating because it shouldn't be able to happen.

[Peelee]

At which point were back to having seen enough pictures that such should be functionally impossible.

If you were shown a random sampling, yes. If you were shown a specific set, no. Again, I'm choosing which pictures to show you.

[Keltest]

If you were shown a random sampling, yes. If you were shown a specific set, no. Again, I'm choosing which pictures to show you.

And eventually you will run out of those pictures, or you will need to show me all of them from a specific time frame where some are missing that bubble.

Basically, it doesn't work like that.

[Peelee]

And eventually you will run out of those pictures, or you will need to show me all of them from a specific time frame where some are missing that bubble.

No I won't? It's constantly boiling and i'm constantly taking pictures. There's going to keep being a bubble in that specific place until it's all boiled out, or I decide to show you the full boiling pot.

[Keltest]

No I won't? It's constantly boiling and i'm constantly taking pictures. There's going to keep being a bubble in that specific place until it's all boiled out, or I decide to show you the full boiling pot.

Ok, but Rich has shown us several consecutive pictures from only seconds apart, so to speak. So maybe he's selecting them, but they had to have occurred that way for him to have taken the pictures in the first place.

[Peelee]

Ok, but Rich has shown us several consecutive pictures from only seconds apart, so to speak. So maybe he's selecting them, but they had to have occurred that way for him to have taken the pictures in the first place.

And, since the eyes being different, melting away, disappearing or reappearing, etc. would be the biggest possible way to give up the game, they're not going to occur that way, especially in a self-aware parody comic that we know for a fact canonically runs off rules of drama.

We're clearly not going to convince each other, so let me just note this: At the end of the day, if it turns out to not be a protean, I will still be perfectly satisfied, whereas if it does turn out to be a protean, you will not be for no reason other than your own insistence that it would be "cheating."

[Keltest]

And, since the eyes being different, melting away, disappearing or reappearing, etc. would be the biggest possible way to give up the game, they're not going to occur that way, especially in a self-aware parody comic that we know for a fact canonically runs off rules of drama.

We're clearly not going to convince each other, so let me just note this: At the end of the day, if it turns out to not be a protean, I will still be perfectly satisfied, whereas if it does turn out to be a protean, you will not be for no reason other than your own insistence that it would be "cheating."

I mean, its a huge problem for the protean. Of course im going to be completely unsatisfied if its just handwaved away. And at the end of the day, that's what youre suggesting Rich would have been doing, since he's the one who writes the scenes and would decide how its bubbled. Honestly, im rather baffled at the number of people who insist that it doesn't matter that much. Its not quite "is the wrong size to be the MITD" level of disqualifying, but it should certainly be close.

[Peelee]

I mean, its a huge problem for the protean.

Because you insist it is, and for no other reason. Because it's really not.

[LadyEowyn]

Under the section on the MITD’s size in the into posts, I would suggest adding two pieces of information:
- The MITD mentions to O-Chul that MITD’s father was “BIG” (caps used in the comic). (Also that his father ate a lot more than MITD.)
- In the Villains Calendar, Qarr mentions that he knew someone like MITD but that MITD is “on the small side”.

That’s two further pieces of evidence giving the same indication Oona’s comment that MITD is “so small...but will grow” - i.e., we’re seeing a lot of hints from Rich that the MITD’s creature type is larger than MITD appears in the comic, and probably by a considerable amount.

[Rrmcklin]

I understand what Peelee is saying: the monster isn't consciously choosing to have two eyes it just "happens" that we only ever see it when it has two eyes, and at other, off-panel, moments it may have fewer or more.

I agree that that being the case would be cheating, in spirit, if not technically.

[Joerg]

Are we sure that we're really seeing eyes? Are there eyebrows, too? Or could it be that the 'face' is really invisible in the dark, but we are shown the eyes only as an abstract representation of where the MitD is currently putting his attention and of what he feels at the moment?

I agree that the creature type should be much larger than what we're seeing. So much that I would rule out medium creatures, and I think 'huge' or 'doesn't fit under the umbrella' should not be listed as a con anymore for the FBS creatures.

[Son of A Lich!]

Or... Rich wants the character to emote without having to change the number of eyes and facial features with each frame? We literally have less to identify him then any other character in the series, by having the solid character traits, two yellow eyes and the umbrella, we know exactly who we are dealing with, without knowing what we are dealing with.

Honestly, that's what makes me think it was originally chosen to go into the dark - The Giant didn't want to draw a new monster in each panel of the comic. He put it into a dark corner to save himself from work and then that became the running gag.

I mean, could you draw, for sake of argument, 100 panels worth of different forms for the MitD while keeping them thematic enough so that the character was Identifiable? I mean, sure, maybe, but Eyes are Mental and keeping the monster in the depths of the dark seems to be the easiest way to handle it.

Just for point of argument - Rich commented that Malack's staff was a hassle for him...

[b_jonas]

#1041, when asked why Team Evil can't go into a second dungeon that day, RedCloak makes the statement, "Keeping both undead and living party members standing through a bunch of fights in a row burns through way too many spells."

Can we infer from this that the MITD must be either living or undead? I.E., not a construct? Not really. It's also reasonable to think that the MITD is so tough that Redcloak doesn't have to burn healing spells to keep him alive.

[woweedd]

Not really. It's also reasonable to think that the MITD is so tough that Redcloak doesn't have to burn healing spells to keep him alive.
As i've noted before, MITD's umbrella is often used to show damage to him, by having it get ripped or scruffed, and...It's in pristine condition. Seems nothing in there was able to threaten him.

[Listening Here]

As i've noted before, MITD's umbrella is often used to show damage to him, by having it get ripped or scruffed, and...It's in pristine condition. Seems nothing in there was able to threaten him.

True, but we also haven’t seen him actively fight anything. In every scene there’s been battle he’s stayed in the back and not engaged. He’s even still casually holding the bucket of red paint in 1040 so it could be assumed he didn’t show damage because the others did all the work and took all the hits while he stayed in the back like he typically does. Xykon was pretty excited to have a challenge finally.

[Listening Here]

I'm sure you all covered it at the time, but in rereading #1041, when asked why Team Evil can't go into a second dungeon that day, RedCloak makes the statement, "Keeping both undead and living party members standing through a bunch of fights in a row burns through way too many spells."

Can we infer from this that the MITD must be either living or undead? I.E., not a construct?

I don’t necessarily think this allows any inference, but I think there’s enough hints out there that allows that inference.

As stated in this thread there’s been several comments that he’s expected to grow from MitD talking about how big his dad was to even a little blip in the calendar from Qarr stating he knew one once but that one was larger.

Throw in the fact MitD loves eating and eating nothing really weird like crystals, sand, dirt, or rocks as his primary food (and he gets tired) it seems a safe inference to state he isn’t either undead or a construct because neither would need MitD’s base needs. He’s biological. Add the fact Oona knows what he is makes me think he’s a terrestrial beast of some kind. I mean, we haven’t learned much about Oona but being she’s a Beastmaster and is familiar seems like a clue in of itself.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Add the fact Oona knows what he is makes me think he’s a terrestrial beast of some kind. I mean, we haven’t learned much about Oona but being she’s a Beastmaster and is familiar seems like a clue in of itself.

The one thing we know about Oona is that she lives next to a large collection of very dangerous creatures. No matter what her class is or isn’t, she has good reason to know about all maner of creatures regardless of what her skill set is.

Grey Wolf

[halfeye]

That does not mean the metaphorical pot ain't boiling, it just means you're being shown something deliberately manipulated.

Deliberate manipulation would be cheating to me. I don't believe that's happening, so I think the protean is not a suitable candidate for MitD.

[Ruck]

But a question - is there a creature who has the ability to read / see thoughts passively?

Passively, I don't know, but the Protean does have Detect Thoughts at will.

I'm mostly in agreement with Peelee and have made my case that I think it's the Protean quite often, so I'm going to try to look at the discussion from a different angle.

Let's say when Rich decided to write the long-form story for The Order of the Stick, he decided that the creature that fit everything he wanted to do with the Monster in the Darkness for storytelling purposes was the Protean. Just work with here from that assumption.

Do you think he would scrap the design for his epic twenty-year story because a creature doesn't exactly match the art (which is largely conceptual and not definite)?
Do you think it matters that the eyes of MitD are the only way we can gauge his expressions and reaction to anything? Do you think Rich might want to keep them the way they are so as to preserve his ability to portray MitD's expressions?
Do you think he would move the eyes around in such a way that a Protean ordinarily would, that would be a dead giveaway as to MitD being a Protean, if the reveal of his species is a crucial part of the narrative?

Aside, for the record, I think it's possible that the MitD is constantly using a move action to hold a two-eyed form, which could also explain why he's so tired and why he has difficulty doing more than one thing at a time, like, say, "hold something AND mov[ing] it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)" Since we've only seen him attack or use a power a couple of times, and he was still both times, it's entirely plausible he uses a standard action as a move action-- we've never seen him move [I]and attack or use a power in the same turn. (This could easily be lampshaded on the reveal: "Finally! I was so tired of holding that form!" "You didn't have to hold that form, you just weren't supposed to come out of the shadows." "...Oh.")

Mostly, though, I just think the Protean is the best fit. Every other FBS monster has what I consider to be a bigger disqualifier than the eyes thing. I'm not wedded to my theories if someone presents me with an option I think is better.

[b_jonas]

I guess Rich does occasionally find ways around when older art doesn't match the story he wants to tell. I'm not thinking of the #198 art upgrade, but more like #675, where Haley decides that the OOTS has been wearing long pants and shoes all along, without the art changing to show this in any way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html).

[LadyEowyn]

He’s biological. Add the fact Oona knows what he is makes me think he’s a terrestrial beast of some kind. I mean, we haven’t learned much about Oona but being she’s a Beastmaster and is familiar seems like a clue in of itself.
I agree. Also, Oona says that she would like him as an animal companion (or whatever a Beastmaster’s beasts are called) in #1037, which to me is a strong indication that he’s something more animal-like, not an undead, construct, or something from the Lower Planes.

[KorvinStarmast]

I agree. Also, Oona says that she would like him as an animal companion (or whatever a Beastmaster’s beasts are called) in #1037, which to me is a strong indication that he’s something more animal-like, not an undead, construct, or something from the Lower Planes. In 3.x, do the Magical Beast and Animal creature types overlap enough for that to work for a Ranger?

[Crusher]

Passively, I don't know, but the Protean does have Detect Thoughts at will.

I'm mostly in agreement with Peelee and have made my case that I think it's the Protean quite often, so I'm going to try to look at the discussion from a different angle.

Let's say when Rich decided to write the long-form story for The Order of the Stick, he decided that the creature that fit everything he wanted to do with the Monster in the Darkness for storytelling purposes was the Protean. Just work with here from that assumption.

Do you think he would scrap the design for his epic twenty-year story because a creature doesn't exactly match the art (which is largely conceptual and not definite)?
Do you think it matters that the eyes of MitD are the only way we can gauge his expressions and reaction to anything? Do you think Rich might want to keep them the way they are so as to preserve his ability to portray MitD's expressions?
Do you think he would move the eyes around in such a way that a Protean ordinarily would, that would be a dead giveaway as to MitD being a Protean, if the reveal of his species is a crucial part of the narrative?

Aside, for the record, I think it's possible that the MitD is constantly using a move action to hold a two-eyed form, which could also explain why he's so tired and why he has difficulty doing more than one thing at a time, like, say, "hold something AND mov[ing] it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)" Since we've only seen him attack or use a power a couple of times, and he was still both times, it's entirely plausible he uses a standard action as a move action-- we've never seen him move [I]and attack or use a power in the same turn. (This could easily be lampshaded on the reveal: "Finally! I was so tired of holding that form!" "You didn't have to hold that form, you just weren't supposed to come out of the shadows." "...Oh.")

Mostly, though, I just think the Protean is the best fit. Every other FBS monster has what I consider to be a bigger disqualifier than the eyes thing. I'm not wedded to my theories if someone presents me with an option I think is better.

This might be the best stated argument in favor of the Protean I've heard.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This might be the best stated argument in favor of the Protean I've heard.

I’ve always thought that a protean reveal could have a reason for the two eyes (“everyone has two, I was trying to fit in”), but I like the idea that Xykon might be involved too: MitD feels this is the scary/ugly face that Xykon wants from him.

Grey Wolf

[Hardcore]

Oona calls MitD both monster and beast. She is beastmaster and should know, right? I assume this is a classification in dnd and now i wonder if we should make it another requirement for the contenders?

[Ruck]

This might be the best stated argument in favor of the Protean I've heard.

Appreciate it.


I’ve always thought that a protean reveal could have a reason for the two eyes (“everyone has two, I was trying to fit in”), but I like the idea that Xykon might be involved too: MitD feels this is the scary/ugly face that Xykon wants from him.

Grey Wolf

That could also be funny in itself as part of the reveal, if MitD's "scary face" isn't scary at all.

[Peelee]

I’ve always thought that a protean reveal could have a reason for the two eyes

Grey Wolf

Same, but I imagined things like an eye stalk that drops the eye to where we're used to seeing it, or half of its body being shorter than the other and a frog-like eye on top, or etc. etc.

For me, though, the strongest argument for Protean is the circus scene, and both how well the Protean works for that coupled with how poorly everything else works for that (I especially enjoy arguments like "I have a friend who finds frogs disgusting, so a froggish-like creature could totally fit there.")

That said, I'm not married to that idea and the other possibilities also work fine.

ETA:
This might be the best stated argument in favor of the Protean I've heard.

Appreciate it.

That reminds me, I wholly welcome people who can make my argument better than I. Hell, I'd be ecstatic if it happened more often. Mucho appreciado.

[Darth Paul]

Just chiming in to add my considerable weight (I mean physical, not moral) to agree that Ruck et. al. make a very good argument why there's no contradiction in anything we've seen for the MitD being a Protean. And I came from the opposite side of the fence on this one, at one time considering it something of a cheat with the eyes. However, there are very good story possibilities and lampshades that can be hung on that as an explanation which would fit with his character and add to the humor.

I can even see a situation where the characters are left saying, when seeing him for the first time,
:vaarsuvius: Great Elven Gods!!! It's a... it's a... well, I'm not exactly sure what it is. Give me a moment to consult my tomes...

And then the exposition comes in the next strip.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I can even see a situation where the characters are left saying, when seeing him for the first time

I suspect I will be mildly disappointed if the demon roaches don't make a sly reference to this thread when the day comes. I know we already got the penchant for political analysis meta-joke, but still.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Oona calls MitD both monster and beast. She is beastmaster and should know, right? I assume this is a classification in dnd and now i wonder if we should make it another requirement for the contenders?
I'm opposed to putting any variant on "we assume Oona is speaking for Rich Burlew" in this thread's expectations.

There is no "monster" classification. There is a "beast" classification, for creatures like worgs and owlbears and...nothing at all that has been proposed as a serious contender here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There is no "monster" classification.

I mean, technically (https://xkcd.com/1475/) there is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html), but it is so broad as to be meaningless.
I really should have a macro that adds that link to every technically I ever write.
Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I suspect I will be mildly disappointed if the demon roaches don't make a sly reference to this thread when the day comes. I know we already got the penchant for political analysis meta-joke, but still.

Grey Wolf

Now now, it doesn't need to be the demon roaches. Oona's grey wolf could make a comment.:smallamused:

[Sniccups]

Unrelated, but I had a dream recently in which the MitD was revealed. It was a Protean that was revealed with partial shapeshift into a Displacer Beast that had way too many tentacles. Dreams are weird.

[Ruck]

Just chiming in to add my considerable weight (I mean physical, not moral) to agree that Ruck et. al. make a very good argument why there's no contradiction in anything we've seen for the MitD being a Protean. And I came from the opposite side of the fence on this one, at one time considering it something of a cheat with the eyes. However, there are very good story possibilities and lampshades that can be hung on that as an explanation which would fit with his character and add to the humor.

I can even see a situation where the characters are left saying, when seeing him for the first time,
:vaarsuvius: Great Elven Gods!!! It's a... it's a... well, I'm not exactly sure what it is. Give me a moment to consult my tomes...

And then the exposition comes in the next strip.

Hah, yeah, I had a similar post (must have been last thread) where I suggested something similar, but it was Elan:

"What is that thing?!"
"My Bardic Knowledge tells me it's a... wait, now it's something else."

[Joerg]

One point against the protean for me is O-Chul's statement that neither Lien nor the MitD would believe him if he told them what the MitD is. Of course, he could be wrong, but that would be kind of lame. Does someone have another explanation?

[Peelee]

One point against the protean for me is O-Chul's statement that neither Lien nor the MitD would believe him if he told them what the MitD is. Of course, he could be wrong, but that would be kind of lame. Does someone have another explanation?

An ally? :smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One point against the protean for me is O-Chul's statement that neither Lien nor the MitD would believe him if he told them what the MitD is. Of course, he could be wrong, but that would be kind of lame. Does someone have another explanation?

"It's a protean, a creature capable of one-shooting Xykon and RC if he wanted to" is hard to believe, given MitD's attitude of servility and submission.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

"It's a protean, a creature capable of one-shooting Xykon and RC if he wanted to" is hard to believe, given MitD's attitude of servility and submission.

Grey Wolf
Or, for instance "It's one of the eldest forms of an embodiment of chaos, over 300 years old at the least".

[Peelee]

"it is a creature too obscure for me to name. It is nothing and everything at the same time."

[Fyraltari]

"it is a creature too obscure for me to name. It is nothing and everything at the same time."

"You remember that one time we accidentally ate shrooms we found in a warlock's laboratory? Picture a being like that."

[Peelee]

"You remember that one time we accidentally ate shrooms we found in a warlock's laboratory? Picture a being like that."

"so a warlock?"

[Fyraltari]

"so a warlock?"

http://memebomb.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/raise-finger-lower-finger-memes-1.jpg

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or, for instance "It's one of the eldest forms of an embodiment of chaos, over 300 years old at the least".

FWIW, I'm not saying similar descriptions can't be done for others; I am merely addressing the claim that there is nothing unbelievable about a protean because that was what Joerg explicitly requested.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

http://memebomb.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/raise-finger-lower-finger-memes-1.jpg

I'll be here all week.

[Son of A Lich!]

My only problem with Protean is similar to the "Wish" issue.

a gnome with wish at will can fit everything on the list, a Protean can fit all the marks because it can turn into whatever it needs to, in order to fit the category.

But I agree with it as being the best fit for the data we have. I think that it's mythological background is more important then it's stat block, however. But we will see, and hopefully soon.

[Peelee]

My only problem with Protean is similar to the "Wish" issue.

a gnome with wish at will can fit everything on the list

Except for how a gnome gets Wish at will, of course.

[Fyraltari]

Except for how a gnome gets Wish at will, of course.

He Wished for it? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwic3hJ4q1A)

[Synesthesy]

Let's say when Rich decided to write the long-form story for The Order of the Stick, he decided that the creature that fit everything he wanted to do with the Monster in the Darkness for storytelling purposes was the Protean. Just work with here from that assumption.

Do you think he would scrap the design for his epic twenty-year story because a creature doesn't exactly match the art (which is largely conceptual and not definite)?

Actually, yes. This is a comic. Its art is as important as the story. I can't even image inside an artist's mind, a creation that is not how he is. I bet that when the Giants decided what the MitD is, he started by what the MitD was: middle/large (but less big than how he's supposed to be), 2 frontal eyes, maybe 4 legs, able to hold an umbrella.

The one things that the MitD by the books and our monster differs may be the size. The Monster may be one or more size class less than his monster manual's entry says. But this is made to fit how the monster is drawn, not the opposite. For me, personally, the opposite is unbelievable.

[Peelee]

He Wished for it? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwic3hJ4q1A)

Said wish goes above described power of Wish, and invokes the "trying for more is dangerous" clause. Gnome is now a Protean. :smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My only problem with Protean is similar to the "Wish" issue.

a gnome with wish at will can fit everything on the list, a Protean can fit all the marks because it can turn into whatever it needs to, in order to fit the category.

It can't.

For example: a protean cannot cast wish. Not even if this wish-as-an-at-will-sp gnome species exists.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

"It's a protean, a creature capable of one-shooting Xykon and RC if he wanted to" is hard to believe, given MitD's attitude of servility and submission.

Grey Wolf

Also:

"Monster-San, remember when I told you that your heart and mind make you what you really are? Turns out, that was way more literally true than even I expected."

[woweedd]

My only problem with Protean is similar to the "Wish" issue.

a gnome with wish at will can fit everything on the list, a Protean can fit all the marks because it can turn into whatever it needs to, in order to fit the category.

But I agree with it as being the best fit for the data we have. I think that it's mythological background is more important then it's stat block, however. But we will see, and hopefully soon.
What do you mean by “mythological connection”?

[Son of A Lich!]

It can't.

For example: a protean cannot cast wish. Not even if this wish-as-an-at-will-sp gnome species exists.

Grey Wolf

Let me just clarify this -

A protean cannot cast Wish as a spell like ability with it's shape change ability, I wasn't trying to say that it could.

I was saying, for sake of argument, anything that can cast Wish more often then once in it's life time, can fit the description of MitD by repeated application of casting wish. It can become immune to damage and blah blah blah. I don't think it is a Teleporking Orc. I don't think it has a template applied to it. But the fact that wish exists within this universe means that it could be plausible, even if it is unlikely or blatently contentious, to have an otherwise nondescript creature (Such as a gnome) with this one ability to fit all the marks as it wishes too.

Likewise, a Protean may not be able to planeshift another creature to a place on the same plane. But Umbral Bolt can move another creature to a new place. Proteans don't have Umbral Bolt, but that doesn't matter, they can adopt those traits.

Arguing against the Protean is arguing against any possible monster (Or at least their stat blocks and extraordinary abilities) within the universe of OotS. Not even all monsters in D&D, all possible monsters in OotS. Suppose there was a Demonstrative Gnome in Rich's world that can Telepork as an extraordinary ability. The Protean can copy that, even though it is not of OUR understanding of D&D. The line between what Rich made and what exists is blurred.

Further, the fact that Grey Wolf and others have to remind people that Supernatural and Spell like abilities aren't copied by Proteans begs the question if The Giant was aware of this when he was writing the story himself. The Giant has made mistakes in the past, and while he is motivated to keep MitD as RAW as possible, he can't ask questions he didn't know he needed to ask.

I think, if he had accidentally went out of bounds with MitD, he would have said something on the boards at least, or foreshadowed it in the comic, but it can not be eliminated as a possibility until we have a reveal.

This all having been said... I still think Protean is the best fit. I just wanted to point out that when a character is able to change their abilities to match other things (whether Wish or Shapechange), they have a leg up on other contestants by nature of how they work.

[halfeye]

Let's say when Rich decided to write the long-form story for The Order of the Stick, he decided that the creature that fit everything he wanted to do with the Monster in the Darkness for storytelling purposes was the Protean. Just work with here from that assumption.

Do you think he would scrap the design for his epic twenty-year story because a creature doesn't exactly match the art (which is largely conceptual and not definite)?


Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in War and XPs c.368
So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.

If the monster didn't match the art before strip 100, I am sure Mr Burlew would not say that it did. He wouldn't need to scrap anything, he could just tell us that before strip 100, the MitD was drawn in a way that was incompatible with what it later turned out to be.

I think that this comes down to how offensive a person finds the label "liar". Some people don't care about it, and think that it doesn't matter. I am quite upset by lies, to me they are all black.

[Peelee]

If the monster didn't match the art before strip 100, I am sure Mr Burlew would not say that it did. He wouldn't need to scrap anything, he could just tell us that before strip 100, the MitD was drawn in a way that was incompatible with what it later turned out to be.

I think that this comes down to how offensive a person finds the label "liar". Some people don't care about it, and think that it doesn't matter. I am quite upset by lies, to me they are all black.

Conversely, I wouldn't see it as a lie at all. I'd completely agree with what he said.

[Ruck]

Yeah, I don't actually think the art contradicts MitD being a Protean, either. And I think if it is a Protean, we'll find out why the eyes don't move. I think if Rich wanted MitD to be a Protean, he'd come up with a suitable explanation, not scrap a major character arc.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If the monster didn't match the art before strip 100, I am sure Mr Burlew would not say that it did. He wouldn't need to scrap anything, he could just tell us that before strip 100, the MitD was drawn in a way that was incompatible with what it later turned out to be.

I think that this comes down to how offensive a person finds the label "liar". Some people don't care about it, and think that it doesn't matter. I am quite upset by lies, to me they are all black.

...

And yet, you have guessed that MitD is an earth mass black hole, an astronomical phenomenon not known for having eyes at all.

Sorry, but I find your selectiveness "that would make Rich a liar" rather biased.

Grey Wolf

[Quebbster]

Actually, yes. This is a comic. Its art is as important as the story. I can't even image inside an artist's mind, a creation that is not how he is. I bet that when the Giants decided what the MitD is, he started by what the MitD was: middle/large (but less big than how he's supposed to be), 2 frontal eyes, maybe 4 legs, able to hold an umbrella.

The one things that the MitD by the books and our monster differs may be the size. The Monster may be one or more size class less than his monster manual's entry says. But this is made to fit how the monster is drawn, not the opposite. For me, personally, the opposite is unbelievable.

The umbrella was introduced after the decision about the species was made around strip 100. Before that point, the MitD had just been hanging out in shadows. I suppose the placement of the eyes could still be counted as an indication of size but it would depend on the placement of the head too.

[Synesthesy]

The umbrella was introduced after the decision about the species was made around strip 100. Before that point, the MitD had just been hanging out in shadows. I suppose the placement of the eyes could still be counted as an indication of size but it would depend on the placement of the head too.

It is not only the placement of the eyes, but their own size. They are the same size the Ogres' eyes, bigger then Redcloak's.

[Hardcore]

I am not that happy with Protean. "Best fit" is not so much a product of occam's razor as being the smallest common denominator.
Sure, a round peg will fit in a star shaped hole but it misses taking full advantage of all the clues.

The current methodology is to reject any suggestion if it fail to explain one of the big scenes. The problem with this is, of course, that it is RB that actually decides whether MitD does that or not. This applies especially to the cirkus scene.


Another approach to the problem would be to list the number of attributes that would fit for a suggested monster vs does that don't.
Since there are more clues than just the big scenes, and with no auto reject, we would have a more powerful tool to use.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The current methodology is to reject any suggestion if it fail to explain one of the big scenes.

No it isn't. Please stop misrepresenting the methodology of this thread, especially if you want me to listen to any suggestions you think you might have for its improvement.

Grey Wolf

[Hardcore]

No problem, read it instead as sorted under "Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas".
Still, the the big scenes is currently a treshold for the viability of new ideas.

I suppose i suggest a point based system of some type. This would require drawing up a list of all the clues so that points could be assigned.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No problem, read it instead as sorted under "Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas".
Still, the the big scenes is currently a treshold for the viability of new ideas.
No it is not. As evidence by, say, every creature Crusher proposes. There is no threshold and you are obviously determined to pretend there is for whatever reason.


I suppose i suggest a point based system of some type. This would require drawing up a list of all the clues so that points could be assigned.

And I have repeatedly rejected the point classification approach as increasing my workload for no gain. Instead of me having to put up with people who are convinced their idea needs to be in the FBS category, I have to put up with even more people convinced that their idea should get more points than it did. Even if that was avoided (and it wouldn't, but lets assume), it would just mean having to create a dozen categories of creatures, from 0 points to 10 or whatever many points you'd want. And that's not even going into the ridiculous idea that anyone can fairly and objectively assign those points in the first place.

As I've said before, I'd sooner get rid of the FBS category than stratify suggestions in such an absurd and artificial way. If it bothers you that I like to set 6-12 creatures as examples of the kind of creature we are looking for, then suggest getting rid of it. But opening the floor to eternal bickering over how many points each of the 150 suggestions should get is not something I am willing to entertain.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Lets be clear here, there is no "winner" in this thread. We aren't submitting a formal guess to some agency, and we don't get any prize beyond our own satisfaction for getting it right. Everything about the thread is simply to present information and logic. If a creature doesn't fit the big scenes, or has some other problem, we cant stop you from guessing it anyway. In your own private opinions, if you don't want to use our categories, fine. In spite of the arguing, at the end of the day the actual first posts deal very little in opinion, Grey Wolf's or otherwise. We just want to direct peoples thought processes so they have the most helpful information to work with.

[Joerg]

"It's a protean, a creature capable of one-shooting Xykon and RC if he wanted to" is hard to believe, given MitD's attitude of servility and submission.

On the contrary, it is believable because of that attitude. If the MitD was more decisive and aggressive, Lien could not believe that he can one-shot Xykon because then he would have done that already. As it is, she should accept it. (Or do you actually mean that someone who is strong and powerful should automatically have a forceful personality? Then I disagree.)


"it is a creature too obscure for me to name. It is nothing and everything at the same time."
Meh. I picture Lien's reaction as "why should it not be that? There are many strange and obscure creatures in the world."


Or, for instance "It's one of the eldest forms of an embodiment of chaos, over 300 years old at the least".
That works. Mainly because of the "embodiment of chaos" part.

Does that mean that a protean must have a chaotic alignment, in the same way as a demon must have an evil alignment? Do we think the MitD acts like someone with a chaotic alignment? Off the top of my head, he sometimes acts chaotic (tacos etc) but often follows orders without even questioning them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On the contrary, it is believable because of that attitude. If the MitD was more decisive and aggressive, Lien could not believe that he can one-shot Xykon because then he would have done that already. As it is, she should accept it. (Or do you actually mean that someone who is strong and powerful should automatically have a forceful personality? Then I disagree.)
No, it is not believable that he'd be kept as a pet. You may disagree, but I would find it unbelievable. All this explanation needs is for Rich to find it plausible, not you. And it is merely an example. Thousands of others exist.


That works. Mainly because of the "embodiment of chaos" part.

That's an equivalent description for a slaad, not a protean.

Grey Wolf

[Joerg]

No, it is not believable that he'd be kept as a pet. You may disagree, but I would find it unbelievable. All this explanation needs is for Rich to find it plausible, not you.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a TV trope for characters which are both powerful and meek (Edit: the trope may be "gentle giant (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GentleGiant)"). Of course, we don't know what Rich finds plausible and we can postulate that if there's at least one person here who finds it plausible then Rich could also find it plausible. Alas, then O-Chul's statement doesn't help us at all.

But if I find an explanation plausible, it would help me to believe that it can be a protean. You may not care at all about that; but I think I'm not the only one who uses this thread to personally weigh the probabilities of the MitD being one creature or another.



And it is merely an example. Thousands of others exist.

That statement doesn't help me either. Hmm, maybe it wasn't intended to be helpful, but to make me stop asking for an example that I find believable?


That's an equivalent description for a slaad, not a protean.

Ah, that makes sense. Pity.

Still, it may be a point in favor of the slaad (for me, to be clear) and then I'm still interested in the alignment question.

[b_jonas]

No, it is not believable that he'd be kept as a pet. Some people in real life keep dangerous exotic pets, including such venomous snakes that could one-shot the owner with a bite. But I don't think Xykon or Redcloak are keeping him as a pet. I don't know what Redcloak thinks, but Xykon seems to consider the MitD a powerful weapon or a high-level minion.

[woweedd]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a TV trope for characters which are both powerful and meek (Edit: the trope may be "gentle giant (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GentleGiant)"). Of course, we don't know what Rich finds plausible and we can postulate that if there's at least one person here who finds it plausible then Rich could also find it plausible. Alas, then O-Chul's statement doesn't help us at all.

But if I find an explanation plausible, it would help me to believe that it can be a protean. You may not care at all about that; but I think I'm not the only one who uses this thread to personally weigh the probabilities of the MitD being one creature or another.


That statement doesn't help me either. Hmm, maybe it wasn't intended to be helpful, but to make me stop asking for an example that I find believable?



Ah, that makes sense. Pity.

Still, it may be a point in favor of the slaad (for me, to be clear) and then I'm still interested in the alignment question.
Sladds are Chaotic Neutral outsiders, beings of pure Chaos. That said, by Vanilla D&D, it is possible, although rare, for an Outsider to change alignment, albeit usually only one only two step, with some excwpetions.

[Ruck]

On the contrary, it is believable because of that attitude. If the MitD was more decisive and aggressive, Lien could not believe that he can one-shot Xykon because then he would have done that already. As it is, she should accept it. (Or do you actually mean that someone who is strong and powerful should automatically have a forceful personality? Then I disagree.)

Huh? This reads backwards to me. You're saying it's more believable that MitD is capable of one-shotting Xykon and Redcloak than it is that he's not?

[Keltest]

Huh? This reads backwards to me. You're saying it's more believable that MitD is capable of one-shotting Xykon and Redcloak than it is that he's not?

I believe the idea is that the MITD being a marshmallow is what makes it being powerful plausible. If he were actually aggressive and assertive, then he wouldn't be hanging around with Xykon and Redcloak at all, or at the very least would not be taking orders from them.

[Peelee]

I am not that happy with Protean. "Best fit" is not so much a product of occam's razor as being the smallest common denominator.
Sure, a round peg will fit in a star shaped hole but it misses taking full advantage of all the clues.

OF course, we don't know the shape of the hole, or we'd know the peg. The round peg to me fits better than any other peg, so as far as I can tell, the hole is more likely to be round than star-shaped.

[Keltest]

OF course, we don't know the shape of the hole, or we'd know the peg. The round peg to me fits better than any other peg, so as far as I can tell, the hole is more likely to be round than star-shaped.

I think he meant more "its a tiny freaking peg, it will fit in a whole bunch of different holes. Just because it fits doesn't mean its the same shape."

[Peelee]

I think he meant more "its a tiny freaking peg, it will fit in a whole bunch of different holes. Just because it fits doesn't mean its the same shape."

I understand the intent, but it's a poor analogy, especially since it's no smaller a peg than any other, and the vast majority don't fit the hole.

[Synesthesy]

Still, it may be a point in favor of the slaad (for me, to be clear) and then I'm still interested in the alignment question.

In my head, he is 'childish' chaotic. He IS chaotic, but he follows the orders of Team Evil not as they were his masters (he said to Oona it's not like this), but as they were some sort of father figures. He is like a cat, he will not obey you if he doesn't want, but he will come when you really need him.

And while we know that the MitD doesn't want our heroes to die (as they are O-Chul's friends), I think he doesn't want Xykon or Recloak to die too.

This is compatible with a young-childish Chaotic Neutral Slaad.

[woweedd]

In my head, he is 'childish' chaotic. He IS chaotic, but he follows the orders of Team Evil not as they were his masters (he said to Oona it's not like this), but as they were some sort of father figures. He is like a cat, he will not obey you if he doesn't want, but he will come when you really need him.

And while we know that the MitD doesn't want our heroes to die (as they are O-Chul's friends), I think he doesn't want Xykon or Recloak to die too.

This is compatible with a young-childish Chaotic Neutral Slaad.
I don’t know. Up until fairly recently, MITD placed a high primacy on following whatever orders he was given without question, which doesn’t seem very Chaotic. I always interpreted him as True Netural. He’ll protect his friends no matter what, a very Lawf attitude, but his standards for friendship aren’t high, which seems Chaotic. He seems to be something of an alignment sponge, taking on the alignment of whoever he’s talked to the most, as would fit an impressionable child.

[Ruck]

I don’t know. Up until fairly recently, MITD placed a high primacy on following whatever orders he was given without question, which doesn’t seem very Chaotic. I always interpreted him as True Netural. He’ll protect his friends no matter what, a very Lawf attitude, but his standards for friendship aren’t high, which seems Chaotic. He seems to be something of an alignment sponge, taking on the alignment of whoever he’s talked to the most, as would fit an impressionable child.
Eh, only when supervised. In Start of Darkness
He's instructed to take the goblins and storm Dorukan's castle, and instead he has a taco party.
Chaotic Neutral sounds about right to me. (Surprise, guess which species is listed as "always Chaotic Neutral.")

[Darth Paul]

This may be a quibble or it may be a bigger point, I'll leave it to the rest of you to decide, but I never saw it as MitD "following orders", even though RC and Xykon (and others) definitely saw themselves as giving them.

The early MitD had a childlike desire to please, and to please everyone. He wanted everyone to be his friend. What others saw as giving orders, MitD saw as a favor for a friend. The taco party incident was a case where he was told to do something he hadn't the first clue about, so he simply followed his instinct to play and have a good time- agreed, Ruck, the chaotic nature at its best. :smallamused:

The conflict and character development came when O-Chul became his true friend, and was in daily, direct opposition to the wants of his other "friends", Xykon and Redcloak.

He reached a new level of maturity when he came to the understanding that you can't please everyone; in order to help his friend O-Chul, he had to go against his other "friends" (even though it was just by wishing for O-Chul's escape). What we see now is a more emotionally mature MitD, possibly about the level of a teenager. Certainly he's not an adult yet, but he's getting there. The Reveal may be critical for him reaching an adult level of understanding and responsibility, among other things.

[Ruck]

Good post and summary. I think MitD as people-pleaser is very accurate and makes a ton of sense.

Remember, the only reason he didn't just leave the circus is that he didn't want "to be rude about it." Well, that and maybe it just never occurred to him.

[Hardcore]

Agreed. That's how i always saw MitD too.

I can add, with all the talk of character growth for the cast, that I think MitD will grow on a different axis. Learning what he really is and all that. Could still end up a Demon or devil, with evil alignment, but with friends.

[woweedd]

Good post and summary. I think MitD as people-pleaser is very accurate and makes a ton of sense.

Remember, the only reason he didn't just leave the circus is that he didn't want "to be rude about it." Well, that and maybe it just never occurred to him.
I’d probably peg him as True Neutral, in the sense that he mostly just does whatever people tell him to do. Like Elan, he’s just smart enough to realize he isn’t smart, and, so, chooses to, up until recently, when he’s been getting better, just follow the ideas of anyone who’s seems like they know what they’re doing. Same way a dog counts as TN: It just follows the orders of whoever gives it food.

[Ruck]

Elan is notably Chaotic so that seems like an odd comparison for a True Neutral case.

[Darth Paul]

I’d probably peg him as True Neutral, in the sense that he mostly just does whatever people tell him to do. Like Elan, he’s just smart enough to realize he isn’t smart, and, so, chooses to, up until recently, when he’s been getting better, just follow the ideas of anyone who’s seems like they know what they’re doing. Same way a dog counts as TN: It just follows the orders of whoever gives it food.

I think dogs are Neutral Good, but will follow an Evil master out of love. They don't have the Wisdom bonus to perceive their master's alignment... even if the master is abusive, as long as the abuse doesn't cross the line and cause the dog to turn on the master.

It seems to me that Xykon being about to kill his true friend crossed that line for MitD, and he has now effectively turned and become an agent in Xykon's camp.

I think I just made an argument for MitD being Neutral Good at this point in his character development... and to me he seemed Chaotic Good at his earlier stages, since he really did care about the well-being of others, but didn't care which side they were on, good or bad, he just wanted everyone to be happy. Now he seems to care about outcomes.

[Peelee]

I think dogs are Neutral Good, but will follow an Evil master out of love.

You think dogs have the requisite knowledge to differentiate between Good and Evil?

[Darth Paul]

You think dogs have the requisite knowledge to differentiate between Good and Evil?

As I said in the next line,

They don't have the Wisdom bonus to perceive their master's alignment.

[Peelee]

As I said in the next line,

I'm talking about the dogs' alignment. Gotta understand what Good is to be Good.

[Darth Paul]

Matter of fact, I do think dogs understand good. Dogs and their fox and wolf cousins, along with felines, equines, primates, marine mammals, and probably other species I'm not thinking of right now, have high enough Intelligence to understand, experience and show love, loyalty, compassion, those things we generally call Good.

Whether their D&D statistics say they can understand this is another thing.

[Peelee]

Matter of fact, I do think dogs understand good. Dogs and their fox and wolf cousins, along with felines, equines, primates, marine mammals, and probably other species I'm not thinking of right now, have high enough Intelligence to understand, experience and show love, loyalty, compassion, those things we generally call Good.

Whether their D&D statistics say they can understand this is another thing.

Huh. That's pretty cool.

[Darth Paul]

Mind you, Peelee, they show these traits mostly to members within their own group, just like humans do. When a dog loves you, it's because you adopted him into your pack (or he adopted you into his). Animals also practice what we would see as great cruelty to those outside the group, even of their own species. So probably they are true Neutral and I'm doubtless just romanticizing what I see of their domesticated versions.

But that behavior means that they are only Neutral by nature like humans, and individuals have the capacity to be any alignment. At least that's how I see it.

[Peelee]

Mind you, Peelee, they show these traits mostly to members within their own group, just like humans do. When a dog loves you, it's because you adopted him into your pack (or he adopted you into his).

IIRC, a dog sees humans as fundamentally different animals and will behave differently around them than other dogs, while the same is not true for cats. Does this matter for the grouping behavior?

[Darth Paul]

IIRC, a dog sees humans as fundamentally different animals and will behave differently around them than other dogs, while the same is not true for cats. Does this matter for the grouping behavior?

I don't know everything about either dogs or cats, so maybe I'm wrong here, but my understanding was that dogs, as pack animals (members of packs, not carriers of luggage), see their personal humans as the leaders or members of the pack. Humans outside the family are different from their humans.

Whereas as far as I know, cats see us as someone who knows how to use the can opener.

[martianmister]

I would go with True Neutral.

[woweedd]

I think dogs are Neutral Good, but will follow an Evil master out of love. They don't have the Wisdom bonus to perceive their master's alignment... even if the master is abusive, as long as the abuse doesn't cross the line and cause the dog to turn on the master.

It seems to me that Xykon being about to kill his true friend crossed that line for MitD, and he has now effectively turned and become an agent in Xykon's camp.

I think I just made an argument for MitD being Neutral Good at this point in his character development... and to me he seemed Chaotic Good at his earlier stages, since he really did care about the well-being of others, but didn't care which side they were on, good or bad, he just wanted everyone to be happy. Now he seems to care about outcomes.
By D&D, Dogs actually have higher Wisdom then their Intelligence, since Wisdom represents perception, intuition, and other things an animal tends to need to function. And, to me, that seems accurate. In my experience, dogs often seem more empathic and understanding then humans. They don't know WHY their person is feeling this way, but they know how that person is feeling, often better than the other humans.

[mjasghar]

When the Motd was given babies to eat it just left them out the back door (this was shown partly as humour since the reality would have been them starving to death - but then this is not that sort of comic so we can have surtr eating children as a joke about gods getting distracted by commune spells)
This suggests
A) redcloak and xykon think it is a creature that feeds on sentient flesh especially innocents
B) they are wrong - since this was at a time when it had been with them for years and not had Good influences you would expect that such behaviour reflects its true nature.
C) whilst the motd isn’t inherently evil it may end up committing acts of omission that end up with evil consequences - leaving the kids out back because it didn’t want to hurt them but not in a safe situation (with the above caveat about humour)
So it’s not fundamentally evil or the worst type of CN - since slaad are by nature carnivores and happily eat sentients and so do the various fiends
Of course this may be the Giant keeping its acts off screen so we don’t see it as a ‘baddy’ when it turns around and deals with the mcguffin whilst the Order deal with the antagonist

[mjasghar]

Dogs use body language more so they pick up on cues
Humans train ourselves to focus on language so we end up surprised by people who can read body language

[woweedd]

Dogs use body language more so they pick up on cues
Humans train ourselves to focus on language so we end up surprised by people who can read body language
I'm pretty sure the incredible sense of smell plays a role too.

[Synesthesy]

When the Motd was given babies to eat it just left them out the back door (this was shown partly as humour since the reality would have been them starving to death - but then this is not that sort of comic so we can have surtr eating children as a joke about gods getting distracted by commune spells)
This suggests
A) redcloak and xykon think it is a creature that feeds on sentient flesh especially innocents
B) they are wrong - since this was at a time when it had been with them for years and not had Good influences you would expect that such behaviour reflects its true nature.
C) whilst the motd isn’t inherently evil it may end up committing acts of omission that end up with evil consequences - leaving the kids out back because it didn’t want to hurt them but not in a safe situation (with the above caveat about humour)
So it’s not fundamentally evil or the worst type of CN - since slaad are by nature carnivores and happily eat sentients and so do the various fiends
Of course this may be the Giant keeping its acts off screen so we don’t see it as a ‘baddy’ when it turns around and deals with the mcguffin whilst the Order deal with the antagonist

Well, at least in the beginning of the stories, the Monster doesn't show any problem in eating adult living beings, he doesn't want only kids.

[Crusher]

Its been a while, so time for a reminder that I’m tracking guesses on what species everyone thinks MitD will turn out to be. And I’m tracking the guesses in post #... um, lets say 6, of this thread (which also has the details of how its scored and the current leading candidates. Spoiler alert, Protean is #1 followed by,iirc, Athasian Nightmare Beast and then Slaad).

You can post your guess here or PM me, and you can argue for your case or just post w/o comment, either is fine with me.

[Peelee]

Its been a while, so time for a reminder that I’m tracking guesses on what species everyone thinks MitD will turn out to be. And I’m tracking the guesses in post #... um, lets say 6, of this thread (which also has the details of how its scored and the current leading candidates. Spoiler alert, Protean is #1 followed by,iirc, Athasian Nightmare Beast and then Slaad).

You can post your guess here or PM me, and you can argue for your case or just post w/o comment, either is fine with me.

What do you think of maybe bolding or otherwise differentiating the usernames for easier navigation?

[Crusher]

What do you think of maybe bolding or otherwise differentiating the usernames for easier navigation?

Sure, I could do that. Do you think it would make it easier?

[Peelee]

Sure, I could do that. Do you think it would make it easier?

I think so, since on my phone there's a lot of line overflow. But on the other hand, I don't want to make demands, and I'm a fan of not creating extra work for people of I can help it.

[RatElemental]

Has anyone suggested the anarchic template? I don't see it in the list of templates discussed. It might help explain the tower scene (accidental smite law?), would help explain why the mitd had seen the astral before (being extraplanar and all) and why it's so rare to see something like that on the material plane. It also gives both fast healing and DR to explain the whole 'it tickles' thing. The appearance is also described as horrifying and unfinished, but with how chaos tends to go there could be a strange beauty to it easily.

That, and we recently got proof positive that anarchic things exist in oots when Hilgya summoned some.

[Keltest]

Has anyone suggested the anarchic template? I don't see it in the list of templates discussed. It might help explain the tower scene (accidental smite law?), would help explain why the mitd had seen the astral before (being extraplanar and all) and why it's so rare to see something like that on the material plane. It also gives both fast healing and DR to explain the whole 'it tickles' thing. The appearance is also described as horrifying and unfinished, but with how chaos tends to go there could be a strange beauty to it easily.

That, and we recently got proof positive that anarchic things exist in oots when Hilgya summoned some.

I feel like if it were an extraplanar being, Oona would be significantly less certain that she knows what it is.

[theangelJean]

Hi! New to the thread, have read the first post and only this thread, so apologies if this has been suggested before ...

Liking the Protean suggestion the best. With regards to the MiTD having a constant two eyes, one mouth ... is it possible for a protean's range of shapes to be limited? What if this one is limited to shapes it has been exposed to before, kind of like a baby bird imprinting? Would fit in with its (his) previous desire to be liked by everyone. Reading the SRD page linked, the "alter shape" skill describes that its appearance does constantly boil, and that it can assume any combination of physical nondeific creatures, but not specifically whether its appearance will always cover/randomly choose from the full range of nondeific creatures.

So, if it lived in the jungle for a while, it might have initially looked like jungle animals, most of which might have 2 eyes and a mouth (i'm not sure who lives in the jungles in Stickworld, come to that...). And then expanded its range to humanoids once in the circus/with Team Evil, most of which (barring any dungeon monsters it met) also have two eyes and a mouth?

Also, the first post mentions fluff about proteans. I don't see it in the SRD page, is there another source?

[Kish]

The full writeup of the protean (and the white/black slaad, and most epic monsters) is in the Epic Level Handbook. Not, I'm afraid, legally available online.

[theangelJean]

The full writeup of the protean (and the white/black slaad, and most epic monsters) is in the Epic Level Handbook. Not, I'm afraid, legally available online.

Thanks! I'll see if I can look that up...

[Darth Paul]

Y'know, I seriously like your suggestion regarding why a Protean MitD might stick with a more-or-less constant shape, instead of being the boiling mass they are described as. It's a great character reason, it fits in very well with what we know of him. (We can say "him" because he self-identifies as a "boy", recall the conversation with O-Chul in which he wants to form a club that doesn't allow girls.)

I'm having a vision of another post-reveal conversation....

:roy: I've heard of your species, but I thought you were supposed to be a boiling mass of flesh, constantly changing shapes?

:mitd: I just wanted to fit in...

[KorvinStarmast]

:roy: I've heard of your species, but I thought you were supposed to be a boiling mass of flesh, constantly changing shapes?

:mitd: I just wanted to fit in... The key to understanding the MiTD is in its inherent contradiction, which is the juxtaposition of Xykon's using him in the initial story as a scary and powerful monster fused with the naive world view of a child ... which scary monsters are supposed to scare. I may need to review MiTD strips, but that character never seems to be scared of anything. This is something he has in common with Xykon, who has yet to show fear. (IIRC a liche is immune to fear, but I may be mixing editions on that)

Finding a monster that is built on an inherent contradiction might be the key to the answer. I don't have a library full of monster books for this edition, so I am stuck with the guesses made by those who do.

[Darth Paul]

This is something he has in common with Xykon, who has yet to show fear. (IIRC a liche is immune to fear, but I may be mixing editions on that)


Your recollection is correct, undead are immune to mental effects which would include fear. At least, if MY recollection is correct.

[Synesthesy]

I may need to review MiTD strips, but that character never seems to be scared of anything.

He is afraid of entering the old Xykon's tower, now sanctified to the forces of Good and full of Good monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html), very afraid.

[Kish]

And he's afraid of Xykon's anger, on a couple different occasions.

[RatElemental]

Finding a monster that is built on an inherent contradiction might be the key to the answer. I don't have a library full of monster books for this edition, so I am stuck with the guesses made by those who do.

The only thing like that I can think of would be aeons from pathfinder, but those obviously were published after strip 100.

[Darth Paul]

He is afraid of entering the old Xykon's tower, now sanctified to the forces of Good and full of Good monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html), very afraid.

An interesting quote from Xykon in that strip when he tries to encourage MitD by telling him,

:xykon: I'm a mighty lich sorceror, Redcloak is high priest of his evil goblin deity, and you- well, we all know how powerful you are.

Thing is, clearly the MitD doesn't know how powerful he is. This speech implies that Xykon not only recognizes his species, but puts him on par with the two of them or even higher by CR. I doubt this brings any useful new information to the table, but we should certainly be looking for creatures who are equal to or greater than Xykon and Redcloak's power. Maybe we can narrow down our parameters a tiny mite further given this clue. It is strip #191, so, well after Rich has settled on MitD's identity. Am I going too far to think this is a clue?

Might this be something worth including in the Canon section of our thread (section 1a)? Something like "Xykon recognizes MitD's power"? (Not trying to increase your work load, Grey_Wolf_c)

[Keltest]

An interesting quote from Xykon in that strip when he tries to encourage MitD by telling him,

:xykon: I'm a mighty lich sorceror, Redcloak is high priest of his evil goblin deity, and you- well, we all know how powerful you are.

Thing is, clearly the MitD doesn't know how powerful he is. This speech implies that Xykon not only recognizes his species, but puts him on par with the two of them or even higher by CR. I doubt this brings any useful new information to the table, but we should certainly be looking for creatures who are equal to or greater than Xykon and Redcloak's power. Maybe we can narrow down our parameters a tiny mite further given this clue. It is strip #191, so, well after Rich has settled on MitD's identity. Am I going too far to think this is a clue?

Might this be something worth including in the Canon section of our thread (section 1a)? Something like "Xykon recognizes MitD's power"? (Not trying to increase your work load, Grey_Wolf_c)

At the time, it would have been a clue. As it is, I think we have enough specific feats available that we can pin down his power more specifically than that.

If nothing else, I highly doubt that anything that isn't at least within spitting distance of epic would be able to account for the Tower Scene.

[Darth Paul]

As I said, I didn't expect it was anything we didn't know already, but maybe it would be helpful for newcomers.

[mjasghar]

Reading that strip the MiTD just seems scared of a dungeon in general not scared of it being sanctified to good etc

[Darth Paul]

Reading that strip the MiTD just seems scared of a dungeon in general not scared of it being sanctified to good etc

I agree. And if he were afraid of Good in general, he would have reacted differently to Miko later on, and would definitely not become O-Chul's friend.

[RatElemental]

They didn't even know it was sanctified yet, I think we can go ahead and conclude he's not afraid of goodness.

[Synesthesy]

Reading that strip the MiTD just seems scared of a dungeon in general not scared of it being sanctified to good etc

But if Xykon told him that the dungeon was full of "friendly" evil creatures, he would be less afraid, wouldn't he?

[LadyEowyn]

To me one of the strangest things abput the MITD is that Xykon and Redcloak have kept him around for so long despite him being pretty much completely useless to them. Redcloak acknowledged in Book 2 that he’s “about as scary as moldy cardboard”. He’s supposedly incredibly powerful, but they didn’t even use him to fight in the Battle of Azure City, when a Gate was on the line. If they had won there (they came very close), the gain from having recruited MITD would be...what?

This is making me wonder if MITD is in some way relevant to the ritual that moves the Gate. In that case, Redcloak would have a reason to keep him around even though he wasn’t fighting or contributing. He was able to instinctively recognize Tsukiko’s doucument as half a ritual.

[Peelee]

But if Xykon told him that the dungeon was full of "friendly" evil creatures, he would be less afraid, wouldn't he?

How many creatures, regardless of alignment, are friendly to Xykon?

[Keltest]

How many creatures, regardless of alignment, are friendly to Xykon?

Im going to go with "one".

Admittedly, I wouldn't be scared of a dungeon occupied by nothing but the MITD either.

[Synesthesy]

How many creatures, regardless of alignment, are friendly to Xykon?

MitD, Trigak, some Ogres, lots of undeads, .... his minion, mostly.

[Peelee]

MitD, Trigak, some Ogres, lots of undeads, .... his minion, mostly.

The undead aren't friendly so much as they are under his control. Ogres and Trigak likely obeyed so as to not die, which I also wouldn't classify as friendly.

So that just leaves the MitD, and he's Italian, so the friendliness makes sense.

[Hans of Frysia]

To me one of the strangest things abput the MITD is that Xykon and Redcloak have kept him around for so long despite him being pretty much completely useless to them. Redcloak acknowledged in Book 2 that he’s “about as scary as moldy cardboard”. He’s supposedly incredibly powerful, but they didn’t even use him to fight in the Battle of Azure City, when a Gate was on the line. If they had won there (they came very close), the gain from having recruited MITD would be...what?

This is making me wonder if MITD is in some way relevant to the ritual that moves the Gate. In that case, Redcloak would have a reason to keep him around even though he wasn’t fighting or contributing. He was able to instinctively recognize Tsukiko’s doucument as half a ritual.

The online comic doesn't give much of an explanation, agreed. But from the events in Start of Darkness we can infer that Xykon would likely want to keep him around as insurance (I don't know how to put a Spoiler section in my post, so I won't go into detail). Redcloak might not have a reason to keep him around, but neither does he have a particularly good reason to get rid of him. Thus, if Xykon wants him around, Redcloak would likely put up with him to keep Xykon happy (unless MitD somehow outlasts his welcome Tsukiko-style).

[Peelee]

The online comic doesn't give much of an explanation, agreed. But from the events in Start of Darkness we can infer that Xykon would likely want to keep him around as insurance (I don't know how to put a Spoiler section in my post, so I won't go into detail). Redcloak might not have a reason to keep him around, but neither does he have a particularly good reason to get rid of him. Thus, if Xykon wants him around, Redcloak would likely put up with him to keep Xykon happy (unless MitD somehow outlasts his welcome Tsukiko-style).

Above the textbox, there's a button that says SPOIL. Or you could manually put in tags, like so: text

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(I don't know how to put a Spoiler section in my post, so I won't go into detail).

From the first line of the first post:


WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for

Grey Wolf

[Hans of Frysia]

Above the textbox, there's a button that says SPOIL. Or you could manually put in tags, like so: text

Looks like I learned something new today. Thankee kindly, my good sir (or madam)!

[Hans of Frysia]

From the first line of the first post:



Grey Wolf

Someday, I will learn to read and follow simple, explicit instructions. But it is not this day.
And by this day, I mean two weeks ago. Thanks, GW!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Someday, I will learn to read and follow simple, explicit instructions. But it is not this day.
And by this day, I mean two weeks ago. Thanks, GW!

No problem. Half my job in this thread is remembering where in the massive behemoth that is the first post I put the crucial details that posters need to build up or see the flaws in their argument. There was a time where it annoyed me that people didn't read the first post, back when it was smaller, but these days I accept that reading through some 150,000 characters might be asking a bit much.

(Also, the mods frown on double posting, FYI)

Grey Wolf

[Darth Paul]

To me one of the strangest things abput the MITD is that Xykon and Redcloak have kept him around for so long despite him being pretty much completely useless to them. Redcloak acknowledged in Book 2 that he’s “about as scary as moldy cardboard”. He’s supposedly incredibly powerful, but they didn’t even use him to fight in the Battle of Azure City, when a Gate was on the line. If they had won there (they came very close), the gain from having recruited MITD would be...what?

This is making me wonder if MITD is in some way relevant to the ritual that moves the Gate. In that case, Redcloak would have a reason to keep him around even though he wasn’t fighting or contributing. He was able to instinctively recognize Tsukiko’s doucument as half a ritual.

Another factor that may be in play is "Familiarity breeds contempt". However frightening the Monster's species may be, he himself, as far as his personality goes, is about as meek as low-fat milk, and both Xykon and Redcloak know it. But this doesn't negate his potential to terrify those who don't know him, just by the fact of his presence on first sight. Imagine a group of low-level characters encountering a huge dragon. Their reactions will be based on the fact that "It's a freaking dragon!!!", when the dragon in question may spend most of his/her time researching spells to cure scale loss in elderly dragons, for example.

[3Power]

Friendly reminder that the Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) still fits every scene.


Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being gargantuan, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength bellow appropriate amount. Psionic powers could explain the earthquake, but not the tower scene.Already established that MitD size is smaller than normal, also Medium-sized Goblins and Faeries. "Not particularly vomit inducing" is subjective. It is an Aberration with the face of a handsome man(or beautiful woman), which fits "ugly, and yet beautiful." Ha-naga do not have psionic powers, but they can choose any cleric spell(including earthquake) as a spell known. All the tower scene tells us is that the MiTD is strong. Ha-naga have a racial +16 to STR. There is no reason to assume that the creature's size or age affects their stat block (Beyond size bonuses and penalties). Only dragons have stats for each stage of growth. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html)

In addition, does not speak in any language, has DR and high natural armor, as well as access to various telekinesis spells. Has Knowledge in Arcana and Religion(Which I would say gives at least some knowledge of the astral plane, given spells like Astral Projection and how the Astral Plane is related to the gods. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) The knowledge I just mentioned plus the cleric spells as sorceror spells ability explains the "half a spell" thing. Knowledge(History) explains random flashes of Goblin political knowledge.


The eyes of a naga are bright and intelligent, burning with an almost hypnotic inner light.

[woweedd]

Friendly reminder that the Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) still fits every scene.

Already established that MitD size is smaller than normal, also Medium-sized Goblins and Faeries. "Not particularly vomit inducing" is subjective. It is an Aberration with the face of a handsome man(or beautiful woman), which fits "ugly, and yet beautiful." Ha-naga do not have psionic powers, but they can choose any cleric spell(including earthquake) as a spell known. All the tower scene tells us is that the MiTD is strong. Ha-naga have a racial +16 to STR. There is no reason to assume that the creature's size or age affects their stat block (Beyond size bonuses and penalties). Only dragons have stats for each stage of growth. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html)

In addition, does not speak in any language, has DR and high natural armor, as well as access to various telekinesis spells. Has Knowledge in Arcana and Religion(Which I would say gives at least some knowledge of the astral plane, given spells like Astral Projection and how the Astral Plane is related to the gods. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) The knowledge I just mentioned plus the cleric spells as sorceror spells ability explains the "half a spell" thing. Knowledge(History) explains random flashes of Goblin political knowledge.
Smaller size means lower strength. A normal Ha-Naga is Colossal. Now, reducing a creature's size, as per the Reduce Person spell, reduces it's strength by -2 for every size category. Let's do some math. The Ha-Naga has a Strength of 27. Reducing its size, from Collosal to.,..Let's be generous and say "Large", the size MITD would need to fit in the box and I guess the umbrella, if he's crouching all the time, would be a -6 to Strength., as it's a reduction of 3 categories. That takes it form 27, down to...21. That's only one above the maximum a starting PC can have, with racial bonuses. Heck, ROY's probably stronger then that, if you count The Belt of Giant's Strength. If we reduce it one further, to Medium, that takes it to 19, which is only barely beyond human limits, not nearly enough to punch someone through a wall.

[3Power]

Smaller size means lower strength. A normal Ha-Naga is Gargantuan. Now, reducing a creature's size, as per the Reduce Person spell, reduces it's strength by -2 for every size category. Let's do some math. The Ha-Naga has a Strength of 27. Reducing its size, from Collosal to.,..Let's be generous and say "Large", the size MITD would need to fit in the box and I guess the umbrella, if he's crouching all the time, would be a -6 to Strength., as it's a reduction of 3 categories. That takes it form 27, down to...21. That's only one above the maximum a starting PC can have, with racial bonuses. Heck, ROY's probably stronger then that, if you count The Belt of Giant's Strength. If we reduce it one further, to Medium, that takes it to 19, which is only barely beyond human limits, not nearly enough to punch someone through a wall.
Alright, so it only has a +10 racial adjustment to STR if large. With the elite array, that's 15 + 10 = 25. 2 less than we started with, 28 if we do point buy or a lucky 18 roll. And that's not even counting him subconsciously using bull's strength or divine power.

EDIT: Also, A housecat with a boosted STR of 12 knocks a dog clear across the room and out a hole in the wall. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html)

I'll say it again. All the tower scene tells us is that the MitD is strong.

[woweedd]

Alright, so it only has a +10 racial adjustment to STR if large. With the elite array, that's 15 + 10 = 25. 2 less than we started with, 28 if we do point buy or a lucky 18 roll. And that's not even counting him subconsciously using bull's strength or divine power.

EDIT: Also, A housecat with a boosted STR of 12 knocks a dog clear across the room and out a hole in the wall. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html)

I'll say it again. All the tower scene tells us is that the MitD is strong.
How can you use a spell subconsciously? A SLA, sure, but a spell is different, and, furthermore, why would he use a spell to enhance his strength when he's trying to hit lightly? Also, are you arguing for the Ha-Naga, as listed in The SRD, or for "A Ha-Naga, with modified stats, beyond the size alteration"? Because those are very different things. I assumed you were using its stats as written, with the appropriate modifications to account for smaller size. If you're changing its stats beyond that, you should have said that. A Ha-Naga, as listed, and as you linked, has a Strength of 27, and I don't see any racial strength bonus.

[3Power]

How can you use a spell subconsciously?
By not using it consciously, Like Xykon does on the first page of Start of Darkness.

Sorcerers develop rudimentary powers at puberty. Their first spells are incomplete, spontaneous, uncontrolled, and sometimes dangerous. A household with a budding sorcerer in it may be troubled by strange sounds or lights, which can create the impression that the place is haunted. Eventually, the young sorcerer understands the power that he has been wielding unintentionally. From that point on, he can begin practicing and improving his powers.

There are no hard and fast rules for how sorcerer powers manifest during childhood/puberty. In OOTS world, what is implied to be Xykon's first spell is a level 4 spell that turns his dog into a zombie.


A SLA, sure, but a spell is different

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.
Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer. The MiTD being a creature with innate magic he doesn't know how to use fits the escape scene and earthquake scene, as already explained.


why would he use a spell to enhance his strength when he's trying to hit lightly? Because he sucks and should feel bad. No, but seriously, the MitD completely lacking control over everything he can do, or even what he can remember or knows, is well documented. From an out-of-game perspective, his primary attack is a full body tail whip. Seems like it would be hard to control. And even if you specifically hate the idea of him using buff magic, maybe he just unintentionally power attacked. Maybe this version of ha-naga dumps the quicken spell feat that was never updated in the conversion to 3.5 rules in favor of power attack.


Also, are you arguing for the Ha-Naga, as listed in The SRD, or for "A Ha-Naga, with modified stats, beyond the size alteration"? Because those are very different things. I assumed you were using its stats as written, with the appropriate modifications to account for smaller size. If you're changing its stats beyond that, you should have said that. I was merely demonstrating how the base creature, already modified for size, could be further modified within the rules to maintain its strength. We already know the Elite Array is a thing, because the dark one had it, and as a monster PC who delves into dungeons with a party of evil-doers, it would be perfectly reasonable for MiTD to have it. In fact I feel it would be more reasonable than a random template.


A Ha-Naga, as listed, and as you linked, has a Strength of 27, and I don't see any racial strength bonus.A monster's racial stat bonuses are equal to their ability score - 10 if even and -11 if odd.


Ability Scores for Monster PCs

While a monsters statistics give the ability scores for a typical creature of a certain kind, any “monster” creature that becomes an adventurer is definitely not typical. Therefore, when creating a PC from a creature, check to see if the creature’s entry has any ability scores of 10 or higher. If so, for each score, subtract 10 (if the score is even) or 11 (if the score is odd) to get the creature’s modifier for that ability based on its race or kind. Generate the character’s ability scores as normal, then add the racial ability modifiers to get their ability scores.

Note: Some monsters have base ability scores other than 10 and 11. If alternate scores were used this will be indicated in the monster entry. Also, some monsters that make good PCs have their racial ability modifiers and other traits already listed in their monster entry.

[woweedd]

By not using it consciously, Like Xykon does on the first page of Start of Darkness.


There are no hard and fast rules for how sorcerer powers manifest during childhood/puberty. In OOTS world, what is implied to be Xykon's first spell is a level 4 spell that turns his dog into a zombie.


The MiTD being a creature with innate magic he doesn't know how to use fits the escape scene and earthquake scene, as already explained.

Because he sucks and should feel bad. No, but seriously, the MitD completely lacking control over everything he can do, or even what he can remember or knows, is well documented. From an out-of-game perspective, his primary attack is a full body tail whip. Seems like it would be hard to control. And even if you specifically hate the idea of him using buff magic, maybe he just unintentionally power attacked. Maybe this version of ha-naga dumps the quicken spell feat that was never updated in the conversion to 3.5 rules in favor of power attack.

I was merely demonstrating how the base creature, already modified for size, could be further modified within the rules to maintain its strength. We already know the Elite Array is a thing, because the dark one had it, and as a monster PC who delves into dungeons with a party of evil-doers, it would be perfectly reasonable for MiTD to have it. In fact I feel it would be more reasonable than a random template.

A monster's racial stat bonuses are equal to their ability score - 10 if even and -11 if odd.
Feels like a bit too much modification to me.

[Kish]

I will be quite surprised if the creature's base creature type is Colossal or if his wall-smashing strength is dependent on anything as volitional as a spell*.

Also, unless I'm missing something in the Ha-Naga description, a Ha-Naga casts spells exactly as a sorcerer, needing all the same components Xykon or Celia would need; Bull's Strength has verbal, somatic, and material (hair or dung from a bull) components. Not exactly a spell someone can cast without realizing they're doing it.

Also, how does a snake stomp? The demon roach didn't say "hit the ground." While it's not listed as a formal criterion, I kind of think "must have feet at least sometimes" is something to look for anyway.

*I would actually find "Rich handwaved him to a much smaller Ha-Naga with unchanged stats" quite a bit more viable than "Rich handwaved him to a much smaller Ha-Naga with reduced Strength and had him offset that reduced Strength by casting Bull's Strength without realizing he was doing it"; then only the first half of my first sentence above and the entirety of my third paragraph would apply.

[3Power]

Feels like a bit too much modification to me.
Then don't worry about the size. It's just smaller than normal in order to meet art limitations while having the same stats.



Also, unless I'm missing something in the Ha-Naga description, a Ha-Naga casts spells exactly as a sorcerer, needing all the same components Xykon or Celia would need; Bull's Strength has verbal, somatic, and material (hair or dung from a bull) components. Not exactly a spell someone can cast without realizing they're doing it.
Vaarsuvius, you're not even required to keep track of those components. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0220.html)

In oots the only specific material components we've seen used besides the off mentioned bat guano are diamonds for raise dead-type spells, and the gem for soul bind. True seeing is cast multiple times without 250 gp eye ointment, and force cage is cast without hurling 1500 gp ruby dust in the air.

In addition, every naga that was fully updated to 3.5 edition (I.e. not the ha-naga) has the eschew materials feat, which according to google was first introduced in Tome and Blood, ie, not the player's handbook for 3.0
As for the other components, I've already addressed that with Xykon's example.



Also, how does a snake stomp? More of a tail slam than a stomp. That would be an example of a somatic component, btw.

EDIT:Also, this:

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

[woweedd]

Then don't worry about the size. It's just smaller than normal in order to meet art limitations while having the same stats.


Vaarsuvius, you're not even required to keep track of those components. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0220.html)

In oots the only specific material components we've seen used besides the off mentioned bat guano are diamonds for raise dead-type spells, and the gem for soul bind. True seeing is cast multiple times without 250 gp eye ointment, and force cage is cast without hurling 1500 gp ruby dust in the air.

In addition, every naga that was fully updated to 3.5 edition (I.e. not the ha-naga) has the eschew materials feat, which according to google was first introduced in Tome and Blood, ie, not the player's handbook for 3.0
As for the other components, I've already addressed that with Xykon's example.

More of a tail slam than a stomp. That would be an example of a somatic component, btw.

EDIT:Also, this:
But, if it's smaller then normal, how would it have the same stats?

[3Power]

But, if it's smaller then normal, how would it have the same stats?
As Kish said, by handwaving it. Or by giving it the elite array, I as mentioned.

[woweedd]

As Kish said, by handwaving it. Or by giving it the elite array, I as mentioned.
The Elite Array seems implausible to me, given that MITD is NOT a PC, and the un-hinted-at handwave seems weird for a creature whose purpose is to be a guessing game.