Chariot optimization

[Blackhawk748]

So there are Chariots in AaEG and I wanna use them in my current E6 game. So I'm curious as to what the Playground has for ideas as to how to optimize the Chariot team

[Palanan]

There are a few chariot-related feats in Sword and Fist which might be worth looking at.

Not sure how useful any of them might be, but it's a start.

[Blackhawk748]

There are a few chariot-related feats in Sword and Fist which might be worth looking at.

Not sure how useful any of them might be, but it's a start.

Nice. I actually have that book so I'll give it a look. Also I'm making both chariots be able to take one more passenger, so the single takes 2 and the double takes 3, simply because the way they have it currently makes no sense

Edit: Ok, so from what I'm seeing, Sideswipping and Trampling look like the best options for Chariot use beyond using it as a rapid moving artillery platform. I'm thinking using Rangers as the Charioteers as when they get high enough level the horses can be their companions.

[WhamBamSam]

There are a few chariot-related feats in Sword and Fist which might be worth looking at.

Not sure how useful any of them might be, but it's a start.They're pretty similar to the standard Mounted Combat feats with minor technical distinctions. A chariot charge apparently uses the charge action rather than making an attack made from a charging mount count as a charge attack. This likely means that only the driver can be built as a charger. However, deviating from the Mounted Combat rules might mean that you can use Pounce while still gaining the benefits of the Spirited Charge analogue unless there are similar vehicle rules to prevent moving and full attacking. In any case that's effectively a Spirited Charge build which should be effectively able to reduce anyone into a fine red mist (though they might need a hand to drive the chariot, and hence might not be able to use two-handed Power Attack like we'd like without some sort of extra arm shenanigans).

Of those feats, Chariot Archery seems to be the only one that works for a passenger, so they're probably either going to be a ranged build or some sort of caster/buffer that's coming along for the ride and mostly just doing their own thing, possibly making some advantage out of the free movement or their proximity to the driver.

[noob]

They're pretty similar to the standard Mounted Combat feats with minor technical distinctions. A chariot charge apparently uses the charge action rather than making an attack made from a charging mount count as a charge attack. This likely means that only the driver can be built as a charger. However, deviating from the Mounted Combat rules might mean that you can use Pounce while still gaining the benefits of the Spirited Charge analogue unless there are similar vehicle rules to prevent moving and full attacking. In any case that's effectively a Spirited Charge build which should be effectively able to reduce anyone into a fine red mist (though they might need a hand to drive the chariot, and hence might not be able to use two-handed Power Attack like we'd like without some sort of extra arm shenanigans).

Of those feats, Chariot Archery seems to be the only one that works for a passenger, so they're probably either going to be a ranged build or some sort of caster/buffer that's coming along for the ride and mostly just doing their own thing, possibly making some advantage out of the free movement or their proximity to the driver.
Are zombie arm grafts a thing in e6?

[WhamBamSam]

Are zombie arm grafts a thing in e6?I'd probably just go with Prehensile Tail, since it's a feat-rich environment.

[DrMotives]

Per Sword & Fist page 78, chariots can make a free action sideswipe attack with a handle animal check from the driver if they're equipped with blades on the axles. This counts as a medium scythe with a +1 attack / damage bonus per 10 ft moved in the same round as the attack made. So, scythes have a x4 crit, and boosting handle animal, as well as movement speed of the chariot would both help this attack option out.

I'd assume that the scythe blades can be customized with special materials, templates, and weapon enchantments much as any other gear. What can we do with these?

[WhamBamSam]

Per Sword & Fist page 78, chariots can make a free action sideswipe attack with a handle animal check from the driver if they're equipped with blades on the axles. This counts as a medium scythe with a +1 attack / damage bonus per 10 ft moved in the same round as the attack made. So, scythes have a x4 crit, and boosting handle animal, as well as movement speed of the chariot would both help this attack option out.

I'd assume that the scythe blades can be customized with special materials, templates, and weapon enchantments much as any other gear. What can we do with these?Depends on how you read the rules about light warhorses being able to pull the thing at 60 ft/round. I see three ways to parse it.

1. The most literal interpretation, which would fix the movement speed at 60 ft/rd, regardless of whether we do anything to speed up the horses. In this case, the only way to move them more is to give them extra actions with which to move. Maybe they're somehow intelligent and using Travel Devotion. Maybe our driver or passenger is a Martial with Grant Move Action.
2. It means that light warhorses, but no other creatures, can move at their normal speed. This should extend to templated creatures, so let's breed or import some with the Shadow Creature template. Other things to increase movement speed also now work.
3. Any creature of similar size and strength can pull the chariot at its normal speed. This potentially opens up weird things like Half-Gorristo Cheetahs to satisfy our need for speed.

Interestingly, the cheesier 3rd option is probably closer to RAI, but shakier from a RAW perspective.


Something like adamantine that ignores hardness can be used to mess up any and all inanimate objects along your path. Since it works like a scythe, making it Keen might be worthwhile.


The Sword and Fist rules for chariots also suggest that they use most of the normal mounted combat rules, which likely means that the rider can't pounce like I had originally thought. Comparing Chariot Charge with a 3.0 Spirited Charge might give some insight as to what differences there are other than Handle Animal vs. Ride as the relevant skill.

[daremetoidareyo]

urban druid from dragon compendium and ride your animated object [chariot] companion like a mount.

[WhamBamSam]

We could also use something like a Warforged turning into an Animate Object with Alter Self to make the vehicle or some part of it a creature. The Sword and Fist text says that the blade is making the free attack with a sideswipe, so if that blade is actually a Warforged, said Warforged is making the attack, so we can use the its feats and such that relate to attacks, without having to worry about attack bonuses or the like because they're set by the chariot rules.

[Falontani]

My group uses option 3. However there are a lot of rules with chariot combat that don't make sense.
In my group we have a small cleric/elemental archon that has mephits pulling the chariot that has been enchanted with levitate (raw it seems that as long as the charioteer is controlling the height of the levitate the flying mephits can carry the chariot into the air, accounting for their carrying capacity not going over light load)

How do you determine carrying capacity of the three mephits?

How does a mounted overrun work with a chariot?

What happens if a single creature pulling the chariot is grappled? Knocked back?

[noob]

How do you determine carrying capacity of the three mephits?


You could probably add the carrying capacities(for rules as written I do not know)

[Blackhawk748]

My group uses option 3. However there are a lot of rules with chariot combat that don't make sense.
In my group we have a small cleric/elemental archon that has mephits pulling the chariot that has been enchanted with levitate (raw it seems that as long as the charioteer is controlling the height of the levitate the flying mephits can carry the chariot into the air, accounting for their carrying capacity not going over light load)

How do you determine carrying capacity of the three mephits?

How does a mounted overrun work with a chariot?

What happens if a single creature pulling the chariot is grappled? Knocked back?

For the carry weight thing I would just divide the weight up amongst them. Also fix the chariot weights. I have never heard of a chariot weighing 300 lbs. Far closer to 100-120 lbs for the heavy ones and the Egyptian ones whee like 60-70 lbs.

I would imagine that you would use the Horse's Strength and bonuses as its the one doing the Overrun attempt. Also I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that they get ran over by the wheels as well. Here's what happens when you have the Chariot Trample Feat:


When you attempt to overrun an opponent with your chariot, the target may not choose to avoid you. If you knock down the target, your steeds each may make one hoof attack against the opponent, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets. The wheels of the chariot do a further 2d6 points of damage automatically, but you must succeed in Handle Animal check (DC varies depending on the size of the opponent) or upend the chariot. See the chart below for sample DCs.

I would presume that they have to stop as the other's can't move if that one's movement is impaired. I mean, its what would happen historically if a horse got caught on something, the whole thing comes to a stop.

I just gotta say, thanks for all the help guys. Right now I have the Driver's being Lvl 2 Fighters with Chariot Combat, Chariot Trample, and Chariot Sideswipe while the Archers are lvl 2 Rangers with Chariot Combat and then Chariot Archery. The Fghter's have Shortspears and the Ranger's have Longspears, Longbows, and Javelins.

[WhamBamSam]

How does a mounted overrun work with a chariot?My guess is that by RAW it doesn't. You use the mounted combat rules without having the same degree of feat support. All the feat support that exists mirrors mounted feats pretty much exactly though, so it's not unreasonable to just say there's a Chariot Overrun feat that works the same way Mounted Overrun does.


What happens if a single creature pulling the chariot is grappled? Knocked back?You need all the creatures pulling to move the chariot, so if the creature is grappled and can't move, it can't pull the chariot without rectifying the situation. If it can move in the grapple, and wouldn't be encumbered by the grapple, then I'd say it should be able to pull normally.

Being bull rushed is more of a headache. RAW doesn't really account for the situation. I'd probably ad hoc something, say that the second creature pulling the chariot can either go along with the bull rush or "dig in" and make a Strength check that works as if it had readied an action to Aid Another (if you could Aid Another on Str checks, which it's actually sort of weird that you can't, and maybe also giving the +4 from being exceptionally stable as opposed to the normal +2 for Aid Another) and be forced to go along if the bull rushed creature still loses (but perhaps less far, as the opposing check could be higher).


Can we scale the size our chariot down for small riders? That'd allow us to pull the thing with medium sized Cheetahs without needing to increase their size to crank sideswipe attacks to crazy levels with Sprint.

[daremetoidareyo]

There is a teamwork benefit that may allow for a chariot overrrun if your pulling animals are taught the teamwork benefit trick.

Crowded charge from PHB2:
Task Leader Prerequisite: Jump 8 ranks.

Team Member Prerequisite: Jump 1 rank.

Benefit: Other team members do not block movement for the purpose of determining whether a team member can charge. However, a charging team member must still end her movement in an unoccupied space.



Heavy cavalry from heroes of battle:

Task Leader Prerequisite: Handle Animal 4 ranks, Ride 8 ranks, Mounted Combat, Trample.

Team Member Prerequisite: Ride 1 rank. The members' mounts need not be members of the team.

Benefit: To close their formation, the team members and their mounts first line up in adjacent squares, then move closer together so that each takes up a square half as wide as usual. For example, a Medium character mounted on a horse or other Large creature normally takes up a 10-foot square, and a team of four such characters would occupy a rectangle 40 feet wide and 10 feet deep. By contrast, if the same team had trained together and acquired this teamwork benefit, they could compress their line into a unit only 20 feet wide and 10 feet deep, making it harder for anyone they overrun to dodge between the horses' hooves.
All team members must act on the same initiative count, so some members must delay to match the initiative count of the slowest member in the team.
As long as the characters remain in a cohesive set of squares and move at least their speed every round, they gain the following benefits:

They don't take the -4 penalty on attack rolls and to AC for squeezing (described on page 29 of the Dungeon Master's Guide).
Opponents can't avoid overruns from team members; they must attempt to block.
The team members' mounts count as one size category larger for purposes of resolving overruns. For example, a horse counts as a Huge creature (+8 bonus to overrun) rather than a Large creature (+4).
For the purposes of area spells and determining position on the battlefield, each Medium character on a Large mount is considered to be occupying a space 5 feet wide and 10 feet long.

[Blackhawk748]

So I'm sitting here doing some crappy napkin math and I'm realizing that Chariots put out an awful lot of damage for very little investment. For example:

Shemus (a level 2 Fighter) is fighting a few orcs who are in a basic Phalanx, we'll go with 4 of them in a line with their Spears pointed at the Chariot. Now, generally, charging a line of Spears is stupid, but Shemus has to or the Orcs are gonna catch him. So he charges straight down the middle, not really thinking.

So, first things first the Orcs get their AoO and two hits are getting ignored, and you may have to tank a pair of hits, which they should be able to. Now, Shemus has Improved Trample and Improved Sideswipe, so he runs over the Orcs in front of him getting free hoof attacks against the Orcs your run over (and you will), hitting them with the wheels, and then getting sideswipes on all of them.

The damage breaks down like this: 2 Hooves for 1d4+3 each, 2d6 for the wheels and then 2d4+6 (or so on average) for the scythes. On average that's 28 Damage and that's not even having the driver use a spear or anything. This only gets crazier if you drive farther with the Scythes or through Magic Weapon around.

I'm honestly impressed with how solid a Chariot is at lower levels