Foul play?

[Teaguethebean]

I was playing in a game last night and we were in a dungeon crawl and we were fighting a wyvern. Just to put it in perspective we were a large party 7 people but we were merely level 2 so we were prepared for a tough one. But the main problem I had was when it flies down from out of our darkvision after going and hiding and stabbed our fighter with its tail dealing 14 dmg with the stab and then after a failed con save 26 dmg killed our fighter perfectly. She had exactly 20 hit points and she died instantly. Does that seem like foul play I am just wondering what you all think.

[HappyDaze]

I was playing in a game last night and we were in a dungeon crawl and we were fighting a wyvern. Just to put it in perspective we were a large party 7 people but we were merely level 2 so we were prepared for a tough one. But the main problem I had was when it flies down from out of our darkvision after going and hiding and stabbed our fighter with its tail dealing 14 dmg with the stab and then after a failed con save 26 dmg killed our fighter perfectly. She had exactly 20 hit points and she died instantly. Does that seem like foul play I am just wondering what you all think.

Random dice rolls can be random. That's not foul play; it's just the way the dice roll.

[Dungeon-noob]

First of, i'd like to ask you to apply punctuation. It makes posts a lot less obnoxious to read. Second, peculiar, but with no more proof or any OOC evidence, random dice are random like HappyDaze said.

[JNAProductions]

It's possible the DM picked a monster too powerful for your party. That can happen-it doesn't mean they're being cruel, it might just mean your DM goofed. They're human (I would think), mistakes happen.

Heck, I literally killed a PC in a forum game here-it was a mistake, since I didn't account for low HP totals and high damage output, so I offered the party a way out, so they didn't lose one of their characters in the first gorram fight.

But yeah, mistakes happen. Unless the DM was chuckling evilly or something like that, it's probably best to assume the best of them.

[Tanarii]

Did the rest of you massacre it on your turn? If so, seems like a fair trade.

[MaxWilson]

I was playing in a game last night and we were in a dungeon crawl and we were fighting a wyvern. Just to put it in perspective we were a large party 7 people but we were merely level 2 so we were prepared for a tough one. But the main problem I had was when it flies down from out of our darkvision after going and hiding and stabbed our fighter with its tail dealing 14 dmg with the stab and then after a failed con save 26 dmg killed our fighter perfectly. She had exactly 20 hit points and she died instantly. Does that seem like foul play I am just wondering what you all think.

Nope. Based on what you've told us it sounds perfectly normal. It's not like the DM would know exactly how many HP you have anyway, so the fact that the damage was exactly enough to kill her is not suspicious even if the DM for some reason hated her. Average damage for a wyvern sting is 11 physical + 24 poison, so it wasn't even a particularly high roll, barely above average.

Wyverns are tough at level 2. I'm sorry for your loss.

[Yora]

When PCs fight to the death, sometimes PCs die.

[Unoriginal]

Using the "instant death from massive damage" rules, the DM needed to roll 24 poison damages, right?

[Warlush]

Of course it is! Who the hell puts a lvl 2 group up against a wyvern!?!?!?!

[Erys]

I was playing in a game last night and we were in a dungeon crawl and we were fighting a wyvern. Just to put it in perspective we were a large party 7 people but we were merely level 2 so we were prepared for a tough one. But the main problem I had was when it flies down from out of our darkvision after going and hiding and stabbed our fighter with its tail dealing 14 dmg with the stab and then after a failed con save 26 dmg killed our fighter perfectly. She had exactly 20 hit points and she died instantly. Does that seem like foul play I am just wondering what you all think.

As HappyDaze said, not foul play.

I have run a few games with that number of players and at that level it is very difficult to make an encounter with one or two monsters that doesn't drop people in one hit. (It is also a major time drag to have large groups to fight. I mean, really, the struggle is real). It is unfortunate that the damage was enough to kill, rather than just KO... but that just how the dice fall sometimes.

[KorvinStarmast]

Of course it is! Who the hell puts a lvl 2 group up against a wyvern!?!?!?!
There were seven of them. Deadly but winnable.

[Azgeroth]

when you say she died, do you mean fell unconscious? or actual insta-death??

if it was a. no foul play, just the way the dice fell.

if it was b. yes it is, need to do double max HP for insta-kill

[cyberfunkr]

No, not foul play. Just a really hard situation to DM; as in, making an exciting encounter that works for that many players.


With that many players, if you have too many enemies, the combat drags in between each players turns. Which means there should be relatively few bad guys to fight.
By level two, characters should be averaging between 4-6 dmg per character (some hits, some misses, some high, some low). Across 7 players that's 30-40ish dmg per round. Since there can only be a few enemies, that means they need a total of 60-80 hp spread among them to last at least two rounds. Or have a higher AC to add more misses.
But players will only have between 10-20 hp each.


So to make an exciting encounter the DM needs to find one or two monsters, that work together, that either have a high AC or lots of hp, BUT has minimal damage output. Probably would have been better to go with a trio of Harpies or Hippogriffs.

[Malifice]

There were seven of them. Deadly but winnable.

Doubtful.

It not only flies (which it was in this encounter) but the average damage from its tail attack is 35 points of damage (poison and piercing). It also has a claw attack that deals 13 damage per hit.

It has 110 HP and AC 13.

How on earth is a party of 2nd level PCs defeating it barring some insane luck? It perma-kills 1 of them each round.

[Erys]

when you say she died, do you mean fell unconscious? or actual insta-death??

if it was a. no foul play, just the way the dice fell.

if it was b. yes it is, need to do double max HP for insta-kill

Its not 'double max HP'. Its "When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum."

So starting at 20 HP and taking 40 damage is an (unfortunate) insta-kill.

[Erys]

Doubtful.

It not only flies (which it was in this encounter) but the average damage from its tail attack is 35 points of damage (poison and piercing). It also has a claw attack that deals 13 damage per hit.

It has 110 HP and AC 13.

How on earth is a party of 2nd level PCs defeating it barring some insane luck? It perma-kills 1 of them each round.

An AC of 13 means most are hitting each round. Even using a modest average of 7 damage, seven players can do about 50 damage a round. That wyvern died in probably 2 or 3 rounds.

Now, the DM (to mitigate perma-kills, since a wyverns poison is beast) probably should have had a warning of what was to come and/or anti-venom available to the PCs so they might make their saves. But, again speaking from experience in dealing with 7-8 players, the encounter was fair.

[Chronos]

With a party that low level fighting a wyvern, eventually killing it but with one or more party members dying in the process is about par for the course. So the encounter was run fairly. What might or might not have been fair, was what was your party doing encountering a wyvern at this level, anyway? There's a place for a fight that difficult, but it should be a fight versus a nemesis, someone that your characters have a vested personal interest in defeating, and a dumb brute like a wyvern makes for a poor nemesis.

On the other hand, maybe the DM was just testing to see whether the party had the sense to just run away (or not seek out the wyvern yet, or whatever). If this was just a side encounter unrelated to the main storyline, and you knew that it would result in going up against a monster likely to kill some of you, and you chose to do it anyway, then that's on you.

EDIT: Oh, another point: In the situation you describe, the wyvern could easily have chosen any of the party members to attack. It chose the fighter, who probably has the best AC, the best Con save, and the most HP, out of all of the party members. That sounds to me like your DM was trying to be merciful, by giving you the highest chance of survival he could. Unfortunately, sometimes even the best chance isn't good enough.

[Tanarii]

Its not 'double max HP'. Its "When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum."

So starting at 20 HP and taking 40 damage is an (unfortunate) insta-kill.
Technically the damage is two sources, one of 14 and one of 26. Net result is the same though. But there might concievably be a situation it matters.

[Malifice]

An AC of 13 means most are hitting each round. Even using a modest average of 7 damage, seven players can do about 50 damage a round. That wyvern died in probably 2 or 3 rounds.

It's flying.

It moves 40' down to a PC of its choice (positioning itself so it can only be attacked by 2 PCs at most), multiattacks one or both of them (almost certainly killing at least one PC), and then flies 40' back up (likely avoiding attacks of opportunity due to killing a PC it's near).

Maybe it was a party of 7 x Sharpshooter Fighters and Rangers with Archery style or something. But given a standard party composition (Raging barbarian is useless as has no ranged option, rage drops if he doesnt whack it or be whacked, and he isnt resistant to Poison damage from rage, as are most melee builds etc) there should have been multiple deaths.

And by deaths, I mean dead dead. Not 0 HP KO, but dead.

Even using your best case scenario, it likely perma-kills 2-3 PCs in those 2-3 rounds before they smoke it.

If that's the best case scenario, it's a stupid encounter to throw at the players.

[Malifice]

Technically the damage is two sources, one of 14 and one of 26. Net result is the same though. But there might concievably be a situation it matters.

With 1-7 HP, the piercing damage kills you outright.

If you had 8-14 HP, the Piercing knocks you to 0 HP, and then the Poison damage is 'just' one failed death save.

If you instead had 15-20 HP, the Piercing damage knocks you to 1-6 HP... and then the 26 poison damage kills you outright!

At 21-40 HP, you're simply on zero HP and KO'd as normal.

[Ninja_Prawn]

it's a stupid encounter to throw at the players.

I agree. Level 2 PCs should be running away from wyverns, no matter how heavily they outnumber them.

[Malifice]

I agree. Level 2 PCs should be running away from wyverns, no matter how heavily they outnumber them.

It has a flight speed of 80'.

Level 2 PCs should see a Wyvern in the sky, as nothing more than window dressing, to set the tone. They shouldnt be subject to a combat encounter with one.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Yeah I meant 'running away' metaphorically, sorry.

[Sigreid]

All depends on whether they knew they would be encountering a wayvren and went ahead anyway.

[Malifice]

All depends on whether they knew they would be encountering a wayvren and went ahead anyway.

And they also metagamed the challenge the Wyvern possessed (i.e. were aware it was a threat way out of their league).

Really, the DM should have it demonstrate its killing power and threat and show the PCs that they're out of their league. If that fails, then (for an inexperienced playing group) he should tell them that it's likely going to smoke them all.

If they still want to proceed, then it's their characters.

[MaxWilson]

Of course it is! Who the ---- puts a lvl 2 group up against a wyvern!?!?!?!

Well, me. I would do this, or rather I would put the wyvern on the map and give them a reason to interact with it (e.g. milking poison) after making sure they knew it was deadly, and I would then be totally unsurprised if they tried to kill it. I've put first-level PCs in conflict with grizzly bears (they won about 50% of the time if they decided to fight it--opposable thumbs FTW!), so I wouldn't have any problem at all with putting a whole group of six or seven level 2s in the same area as a wyvern, which is only maybe three times stronger than a bear. The fight is effectively twice or three times as easy.

Starting off in a deadly world makes character growth more meaningful. Eventually they'll become heroes who can handle whole flocks of wyverns, no sweat. This experience will make that one more meaningful.

[Ronnocius]

It has a flight speed of 80'.

Level 2 PCs should see a Wyvern in the sky, as nothing more than window dressing, to set the tone. They shouldnt be subject to a combat encounter with one.

That is up for debate. A fight with a wyvern is definitely fair, but it depends on the circumstances. If they had been forewarned about the wyvern then it is fair for them to encounter one. If the DM forced this encounter upon them with no chance of any real escape, then it could be considered a bad encounter but you shouldn't really make generalizations that characters should never fight anything if it is considerably stronger than them.

[Tanarii]

OP said they were in a dungeon (limits flying), although in a place big enough it could hide out of darkvision range. And they were prepared for a tough fight. Personally I assumed the latter meant they chose to take it on.

[MaxWilson]

That is up for debate. A fight with a wyvern is definitely fair, but it depends on the circumstances. If they had been forewarned about the wyvern then it is fair for them to encounter one. If the DM forced this encounter upon them with no chance of any real escape, then it could be considered a bad encounter but you shouldn't really make generalizations that characters should never fight anything if it is considerably stronger than them.

Sometimes it might be smartest to scare it off with arrows, or let it eat your horse while you flee. DMs who prefer to run Combat As Sport games where the wyvern suddenly appears in your face (melee range) with no motivation other than killing as many PCs as possible before it dies will probably tend to overlook these kinds of alternate resolutions, and will therefore consider it unfair to even *have* a wyvern, but it's really just a playstyle difference: does the encounter start with "roll initiative" and last for eighteen seconds, or does it start with "a winged shape high in the sky has been circling you for the past fifteen minutes and now it seems to be coming closer. It looks something like a large winged lizard. What would you like to know or do?" and last until the wyvern is dead or gone?

For TTRPG play I strongly prefer the latter, but the former is fine in CRPGs.

[Erys]

It's flying.

It moves 40' down to a PC of its choice (positioning itself so it can only be attacked by 2 PCs at most), multiattacks one or both of them (almost certainly killing at least one PC), and then flies 40' back up (likely avoiding attacks of opportunity due to killing a PC it's near).

Maybe it was a party of 7 x Sharpshooter Fighters and Rangers with Archery style or something. But given a standard party composition (Raging barbarian is useless as has no ranged option, rage drops if he doesnt whack it or be whacked, and he isnt resistant to Poison damage from rage, as are most melee builds etc) there should have been multiple deaths.

And by deaths, I mean dead dead. Not 0 HP KO, but dead.

Even using your best case scenario, it likely perma-kills 2-3 PCs in those 2-3 rounds before they smoke it.

If that's the best case scenario, it's a stupid encounter to throw at the players.

A few points:
1) Only one PC died, so your "best case scenario" is one player dead-dead; not 2 or 3.
2) Sharpshooter at lvl 2 = missing. That would be a failure tactic.
3) Even raging barbarians can ready an action throw an axe or javelin.
4) Large groups don't work like normal sized groups. You have two basic options, lots of little enemies (which makes combat take forever) or use one or two very strong creatures.

As I said early, I have ran groups that large for years, and I would have had given out anti-venom so the players could mitigate the poison, sure. BUT not doing so is hardly unfair. When you go outside the scope of what the game is designed, things can get wonky and difficult.

[Son of A Lich!]

Wyvern vs a party of 7 level 2 characters? Eh, if they have enough range to take care of the flight, I think it's in the parties favor over all. Naturally, if everyone is a GWM fighter, then it's a bit unfair but that's a weird edge case scenario.

Wyvern vs a party of 7 Level 2 characters At Night? No, that's not fair for the party. This sounds cinematic and cool, and I'd love to see it drawn out in comic book form, but it can fly by and kill characters in relative safety of the darkness where it can reliably avoid guiding bolts and other ways of mitigating the disadvantage of not seeing your opponent at range in the dark.

I think I would start this as a natural villain. Attacks, kills one character and retreats (It's satisfied it has some food, no need to kill the rest of the party) and the party goes to find the body. This leads to the party finding some crazy mcguffin in the Wyvern's nest. Maybe have them fight a 'Young' wyvern in the following days to get them used to fighting flying opponents.

Then with a long rest and a prepared party of adventurers, in broad daylight, they find the Wyvern on the ground and get the drop on it. The fight is satisfying, but not given. The party is justified in fighting the beast, the beast is defending itself naturally. Put it on a cliff side or maybe like a ruined castle so they can try and avoid return attacks and have a clear shot linearly against the wyvern rather then vertical (Which always is disorienting with minis if you aren't playing theater of mind). Bow fighters can get used to range fights and close range characters can scour the floor for the body of the party member and discover something in the ruins.

*Nod nod* Could work. I would wait till level 4 though, just to pump up the hit points of the party.

[MaxWilson]

Wyvern vs a party of 7 Level 2 characters At Night? No, that's not fair for the party. This sounds cinematic and cool, and I'd love to see it drawn out in comic book form, but it can fly by and kill characters in relative safety of the darkness where it can reliably avoid guiding bolts and other ways of mitigating the disadvantage of not seeing your opponent at range in the dark.

This sets up a cool, I Am Legend-like dynamic where the PCs kill monsters during the day and huddle under their roofs at night hoping the monsters don't know where they are. I approve.

[Mercurias]

I was playing in a game last night and we were in a dungeon crawl and we were fighting a wyvern. Just to put it in perspective we were a large party 7 people but we were merely level 2 so we were prepared for a tough one. But the main problem I had was when it flies down from out of our darkvision after going and hiding and stabbed our fighter with its tail dealing 14 dmg with the stab and then after a failed con save 26 dmg killed our fighter perfectly. She had exactly 20 hit points and she died instantly. Does that seem like foul play I am just wondering what you all think.

In direct answer to your question, I would only say that it looks like the DM might have made an overly tough encounter. As to whether or not it was foul play, though, I would only cry foul if the DM made a house rule declaration on the damage the dead PC took.

I would discuss it with your DM and see what they think.

[Erys]

Wyvern vs a party of 7 level 2 characters? Eh, if they have enough range to take care of the flight, I think it's in the parties favor over all. Naturally, if everyone is a GWM fighter, then it's a bit unfair but that's a weird edge case scenario.

Wyvern vs a party of 7 Level 2 characters At Night? No, that's not fair for the party. This sounds cinematic and cool, and I'd love to see it drawn out in comic book form, but it can fly by and kill characters in relative safety of the darkness where it can reliably avoid guiding bolts and other ways of mitigating the disadvantage of not seeing your opponent at range in the dark.

I think I would start this as a natural villain. Attacks, kills one character and retreats (It's satisfied it has some food, no need to kill the rest of the party) and the party goes to find the body. This leads to the party finding some crazy mcguffin in the Wyvern's nest. Maybe have them fight a 'Young' wyvern in the following days to get them used to fighting flying opponents.

Then with a long rest and a prepared party of adventurers, in broad daylight, they find the Wyvern on the ground and get the drop on it. The fight is satisfying, but not given. The party is justified in fighting the beast, the beast is defending itself naturally. Put it on a cliff side or maybe like a ruined castle so they can try and avoid return attacks and have a clear shot linearly against the wyvern rather then vertical (Which always is disorienting with minis if you aren't playing theater of mind). Bow fighters can get used to range fights and close range characters can scour the floor for the body of the party member and discover something in the ruins.

*Nod nod* Could work. I would wait till level 4 though, just to pump up the hit points of the party.

A wyvern fight in the day where the PCs can tag it at ranged while it cannot reach the party isn't much of a challenge... Remember, just using Readied Actions seven level 2 PCs can pretty easily deal 50 damage in a single round.

I do like the premise of using the death as a plot point though. Granted, the motivation to try and find the body alone seems iffy. Not likely to have access to a rez AND they will have to face the threat again one man down. But, depending on the broader scope of the area and whatnot- it could be a lot of fun and worth the challenge.

[Son of A Lich!]

A wyvern fight in the day where the PCs can tag it at ranged while it cannot reach the party isn't much of a challenge... Remember, just using Readied Actions seven level 2 PCs can pretty easily deal 50 damage in a single round.

I do like the premise of using the death as a plot point though. Granted, the motivation to try and find the body alone seems iffy. Not likely to have access to a rez AND they will have to face the threat again one man down. But, depending on the broader scope of the area and whatnot- it could be a lot of fun and worth the challenge.

Yeah, I'm not sold on it either. I probably should have emphasized the "Could" work.

The biggest advantage with strifing tactics is that the wyvern can pick off the target it wants, so you would need something to spread out the party a bit. I agree that this isn't much of a fight with 7 combatants on one side.

Honestly, with the night fight, I probably would have had the Wyvern "Incidentally" take which ever party member has the McGuffin they need to finish the quest of the dungeon. You need to bring the sacred chalice to the king? The wizard holding it was snatched by a Wyvern in the middle of the night. It's possible that the wizard might be dead when the party arrives (More then likely, really), but there are two reasons to seek out the lost comrade.

But the fight having gone the way that it did, I can't edit too much of what has happened versus what should have happened. Just my two copper, really.

[HappyDaze]

Yeah, I'm not sold on it either. I probably should have emphasized the "Could" work.

The biggest advantage with strifing tactics is that the wyvern can pick off the target it wants, so you would need something to spread out the party a bit. I agree that this isn't much of a fight with 7 combatants on one side.

Honestly, with the night fight, I probably would have had the Wyvern "Incidentally" take which ever party member has the McGuffin they need to finish the quest of the dungeon. You need to bring the sacred chalice to the king? The wizard holding it was snatched by a Wyvern in the middle of the night. It's possible that the wizard might be dead when the party arrives (More then likely, really), but there are two reasons to seek out the lost comrade.

But the fight having gone the way that it did, I can't edit too much of what has happened versus what should have happened. Just my two copper, really.

If you're fighting this thing in a dungeon, withdraw to a point that you can restrict it's movement if it tries to follow. It's not smart, so bait it and draw it after you; not everything needs to be a straight-up fight.

[MaxWilson]

A wyvern fight in the day where the PCs can tag it at ranged while it cannot reach the party isn't much of a challenge...

It gets better if the wyvern closes the distance partly by dive-bombing--there isn't a limit to how far you can fall in a turn. (Well, the DM could make something up, and Xanathar's has a 500'-per-round falling rate, but either way it's likely to be fast enough for the wyvern to at least get into attack range if not back out.)

[Erys]

It gets better if the wyvern closes the distance partly by dive-bombing--there isn't a limit to how far you can fall in a turn. (Well, the DM could make something up, and Xanathar's has a 500'-per-round falling rate, but either way it's likely to be fast enough for the wyvern to at least get into attack range if not back out.)

Eh... I don't know.

Allowing 'falling' as a type of movement that can be corrected before hitting the ground reeks of shenanigans. Falling 500' in six seconds is, what, ~60 mph; I don't see a wyvern (or any winged creature) as being able to turn on a dime. It would more then likely slam into the ground at that speed (because remember: falling is straight down, not angled). Now it dies in 1 or 2 rounds, instead of 2 or 3.

Regardless, at the end of the day its not a question of how a wyvern can kill seven level 2 characters; its whether or not the fight was unfair or not to begin with. And from what I have read of the OP, and my own experience running large groups: it was fair.

[MaxWilson]

Eh... I don't know.

Allowing 'falling' as a type of movement that can be corrected before hitting the ground reeks of shenanigans. Falling 500' in six seconds is, what, ~60 mph; I don't see a wyvern (or any winged creature) as being able to turn on a dime. It would more then likely slam into the ground at that speed (because remember: falling is straight down, not angled). Now it dies in 1 or 2 rounds, instead of 2 or 3.

I'd have more of a problem with it if not for the fact that dive-bombing is an actual tactic used by real-life flying creatures. Whether your pick 500' as the distance or not isn't the point, it's just that attacking from above is a good tactic and will probably let the wyvern attack the party even in broad daylight, though not necessary survive.

(And in real life, longbow arrows would lose most of their force against a target several hundred feet up, anyway--the unrealism of instant braking for flying creatures and the unrealism of allowing longbow attacks 500' up sort of cancels out in my mind. Might as well just keep them both simple instead of trying to work out how high the wyvern needs to fly to be able to dive-bomb while still staying relatively safe from longbows. Not to mention that in real life, hitting a moving target with an arrow is much harder than 5E makes it.)


Regardless, at the end of the day its not a question of how a wyvern can kill seven level 2 characters; its whether or not the fight was unfair or not to begin with. And from what I have read of the OP, and my own experience running large groups: it was fair.

Agreed.

[Erys]

Fair point MaxWilson; Birds do dive bomb, sometimes from miles out and clocking easily over a hundred miles... they also weigh 3 to 15 pounds.

I personally don't think a wyvern, dragon, or even a griffon could do the same weighing of hundreds (if not over a thousand) of pounds, and are certainly not nearly as maneuverable as their avian brethren. At the very least they shouldn't be able to leave range afterwards, because even the Eagle and Falcon slow way down trying to climb against gravity with prey in the talons. Which, with that in mind, is why I also don't let an arrow reach max range when shot straight up either.

The game is fantasy, and everyone's level of verisimilitude varies- these are my personal limits.

[Marcloure]

If the group still won the battle, then it was certainly fair. It was a deadly encounter, which means someone can die in that fight, and someone did. Still, if you won, it was a fight you were able to win.

[Malifice]

A few points:
1) Only one PC died, so your "best case scenario" is one player dead-dead; not 2 or 3.

Do we know that only one died?


2) Sharpshooter at lvl 2 = missing. That would be a failure tactic.

Sharpshooter + Archery style (and Dex 16) is +2 to hit. The Wyvern has an AC of 13 (50 percent chance to hit with SS). Presuming 7 PCs with this combo and no other buffs (Bless, Hunters mark, Action surge etc) then they're hitting it 3.5 times per round with readied actions dealing 52.5 damage per round.

It's likely dead after 2 rounds.


3) Even raging barbarians can ready an action throw an axe or javelin.

If their trigger doesnt occur, then their rage drops.

Also, a thrown javelin from a 2nd level Barbarian does 1d6+3 damage, even if it hits (and they havent got the best short range). The Wyvern doesnt care about damage like that.


4) Large groups don't work like normal sized groups. You have two basic options, lots of little enemies (which makes combat take forever) or use one or two very strong creatures.


Lots of little enemies do not make combat last forever. Even with minis, it's 'pick up miniature, move it 6 square, roll a d20', and most of the time you skip the movement bit.

10 Orcs is 10 rolls of a d20 from the DM. It takes all of a minute to resolve, including damage. And players should themselves be on the clock. If they dont tell you what they're doing within a few seconds to several seconds of their turn starting, after a warning from the DM, they take the Dodge action and their turn ends. This isnt a rule, but it's how you should be running your combats, particularly with players that like to umm and ahh too much.

Also, throwing a well over CR'd solo monster at a party of squishy 2nd level PCs is not the way to go. You're invariably going to end up with character deaths.


When you go outside the scope of what the game is designed, things can get wonky and difficult.

The rules are clear that the Wyvern is a deadly encounter, and that one or more PCs should die.

Throwing one at that party isnt outside the scope of the games design. The oucome is clearly expressed in the rules for encounter design.

[Erys]

Do we know that only one died?

Well, considering the OP only mentioned the one death and that was their "main problem"; yeah, that seems to be the case.


Sharpshooter + Archery style (and Dex 16) is +2 to hit. The Wyvern has an AC of 13 (50 percent chance to hit with SS). Presuming 7 PCs with this combo and no other buffs (Bless, Hunters mark, Action surge etc) then they're hitting it 3.5 times per round with readied actions dealing 52.5 damage per round.

It's likely dead after 2 rounds.

It is HIGHLY unlikely all seven players are archers. Also, that means by the averages they would be doing about the same damage as what I said (which was very conservative), but having a proper mix of classes.


If their trigger doesnt occur, then their rage drops.

Also, a thrown javelin from a 2nd level Barbarian does 1d6+3 damage, even if it hits (and they havent got the best short range). The Wyvern doesnt care about damage like that.

There is that chance, yes. And when that damage is multiplied by 7, it does care. That's the point, its not that you are hitting it hard but only a few times; large parties can do minimal damage per person and still do large damage to single opponents. And if the party synergizes their abilities (from seven classes) it can get really crazy real easy, even at low level.


Lots of little enemies do not make combat last forever. Even with minis, it's 'pick up miniature, move it 6 square, roll a d20', and most of the time you skip the movement bit.

10 Orcs is 10 rolls of a d20 from the DM. It takes all of a minute to resolve, including damage. And players should themselves be on the clock. If they dont tell you what they're doing within a few seconds to several seconds of their turn starting, after a warning from the DM, they take the Dodge action and their turn ends. This isnt a rule, but it's how you should be running your combats, particularly with players that like to umm and ahh too much.

Also, throwing a well over CR'd solo monster at a party of squishy 2nd level PCs is not the way to go. You're invariably going to end up with character deaths.

You seem to be missing the part where this is a party of seven people. Even if each person managed to keep their turn to a single minute* and the DM three for bulk rolling and book keeping- each round is taking 10 minutes. Multiple-enemy fights don't generally end in just two or three rounds like one big bad either, so in a modest 5 round fight you are almost at an hour. (And it will only get worse as the levels go up and either the enemies can take more hits or there are even more enemies, but I digress).

The other option for such a group is a much higher CR monster; but then you risk perma-killing a player or two. Though, that risk lessens with each level gained by the players.

This is just how it goes with large parties. Not sure why you are arguing with me on this, facts are facts.

*(Which is fast as a general rule of thumb; there is almost always one ore two players who don't know what they want to do and take longer; and I strongly doubt there are many, if any, tables where players know what they want to do and can resolve their turn in 'a few to several seconds' round after round; especially as they get higher level and have more options at their disposal).


The rules are clear that the Wyvern is a deadly encounter, and that one or more PCs should die.

Throwing one at that party isnt outside the scope of the games design. The oucome is clearly expressed in the rules for encounter design.

To which I say: I agree! (And I am a little perplexed on what exactly you are disagreeing with me on, other than semantics).

The question in the OP was 'was this fair'; and I have said and maintained that yes it was. Large parties <which are outside the scope of what 5th was designed for> are different than normal sized groups and DMs are generally faced with unique dilemmas on how to makes encounters challenging without just curb stopping, or eating way precise game time.

[Malifice]

You seem to be missing the part where this is a party of seven people. Even if each person managed to keep their turn to a single minute.

A minute to resolve a turn?

Good lord. My players resolve turns in 10 seconds, often less. If they havent, then their turn ends and they take the Dodge action.

I mean they're 2nd level. Most rounds its roll a d20. If you hit, roll a second dice for damage.

[Dungeon-noob]

A minute to resolve a turn?

Good lord. My players resolve turns in 10 seconds, often less. If they havent, then their turn ends and they take the Dodge action.

I mean they're 2nd level. Most rounds its roll a d20. If you hit, roll a second dice for damage.
Well, good for you then. But especially with new/less experienced players, that is very unlikely, and many people don't seem to be that fast. That makes larger groups much harder to play with/DM for, and makes fights with a lot of participants take much longer. Which is often a problem if you wanted to do anything else that night.

[Malifice]

Well, good for you then. But especially with new/less experienced players, that is very unlikely, and many people don't seem to be that fast. That makes larger groups much harder to play with/DM for, and makes fights with a lot of participants take much longer. Which is often a problem if you wanted to do anything else that night.

DM: 'Hey guys, for the campaign I'm running with the following: When your turn starts you get a few seconds to declare what your PC is doing. You get one warning, and then if you still havent told me within a few more seconds, your PC takes the Dodge action and your turn ends.'

Simple and effective. Players attention is focused on the combat, tracking what is happening, and a sense of urgency and confusion makes the encounter come to life.

[Xetheral]

DM: 'Hey guys, for the campaign I'm running with the following: When your turn starts you get a few seconds to declare what your PC is doing. You get one warning, and then if you still havent told me within a few more seconds, your PC takes the Dodge action and your turn ends.'

Simple and effective. Players attention is focused on the combat, tracking what is happening, and a sense of urgency and confusion makes the encounter come to life.

Even when it only takes a player a few seconds to make the actual decision, there are many other components to a turn that add up quickly. In addition to the decision time there may be:

Time to ask the DM questions about the environment/situation, such as: "does my character have line of sight to [opponent]?", "does it look like the wall of that building is easily climbable?", "how far do I have to move into the fog before I'd have sufficient obscurement to try to hide?", "You said there was a stack of barrels in one corner of the room. How heavy do they look, and how precariously are they stacked?", "[Other PC] is out of my character's line of sight. Was the crit he just suffered audible enough for my character to realize he's in trouble?" Time for the DM to answer the questions. Time for the character to give an IC description of their action declaration. Time to roll the dice, possibly including several rolls. Time to resolve reactions to the character's action (including the above steps on this list if the reacting character is a PC). Time to resolve any reactions to the reaction (ditto). Time for the DM to give an IC description of the result of the character's action and any reactions.

[Malifice]

Even when it only takes a player a few seconds to make the actual decision, there are many other components to a turn that add up quickly. In addition to the decision time there may be:

Time to ask the DM questions about the environment/situation, such as: "does my character have line of sight to [opponent]?", "does it look like the wall of that building is easily climbable?", "how far do I have to move into the fog before I'd have sufficient obscurement to try to hide?", "You said there was a stack of barrels in one corner of the room. How heavy do they look, and how precariously are they stacked?", "[Other PC] is out of my character's line of sight. Was the crit he just suffered audible enough for my character to realize he's in trouble?" Time for the DM to answer the questions. Time for the character to give an IC description of their action declaration. Time to roll the dice, possibly including several rolls. Time to resolve reactions to the character's action (including the above steps on this list if the reacting character is a PC). Time to resolve any reactions to the reaction (ditto). Time for the DM to give an IC description of the result of the character's action and any reactions.


Mate, most turns at 2nd level are:

Pick target, roll d20. If hit, roll damage.

They take literally 10-15 seconds to resolve (2-3 seconds if the d20 misses).

AoE spells tend to take the longest, thanks to multiple saves and casters messing about finding the perfect spot to drop the spell. For those effects it's usually a minute or so.

[ad_hoc]

This is the problem with playing with 7 PCs.

Either combat is trivial or it is deadly.

[Erys]

Mate, most turns at 2nd level are:

Pick target, roll d20. If hit, roll damage.

They take literally 10-15 seconds to resolve (2-3 seconds if the d20 misses).

AoE spells tend to take the longest, thanks to multiple saves and casters messing about finding the perfect spot to drop the spell. For those effects it's usually a minute or so.

At 2nd, if you are a fighter or barbarian, sure. But, I have been talking about the issues with large parties in general, not when they are at their absolute quickest because they have but one option to use.

The reality is not 'seven 2nd level fighters for the whole campaign'. Their level/options will increase and the time it takes to resolve their respective turns will too; also their opponents will get either more numerous, tougher, and/or both- making it even slower.

I speak from direct experience. There are always exceptions, but the rule is: one or two really strong creatures (where you risk killing a PC or two) or groups of enemies which will always be a time sink.

[Xetheral]

Mate, most turns at 2nd level are:

Pick target, roll d20. If hit, roll damage.

They take literally 10-15 seconds to resolve (2-3 seconds if the d20 misses).

AoE spells tend to take the longest, thanks to multiple saves and casters messing about finding the perfect spot to drop the spell. For those effects it's usually a minute or so.

Do your characters never ask you questions about the environment? Do they never describe their actions IC? Do you not take time to translate the mechanical outcome of actions into an IC description, including how other nearby creatures react? Do your players and NPCs not take bonus action attacks (e.g. TWF) and reactions (e.g. AoOs)?

[JoeJ]

Well, good for you then. But especially with new/less experienced players, that is very unlikely, and many people don't seem to be that fast. That makes larger groups much harder to play with/DM for, and makes fights with a lot of participants take much longer. Which is often a problem if you wanted to do anything else that night.

So your complaint is that, with a large group, too much of your D&D playing time will be spent playing D&D?

[ad_hoc]

So your complaint is that, with a large group, too much of your D&D playing time will be spent playing D&D?

Most of the time is spent watching other people play D&D.

Everyone has a threshold of how many players they are willing to play with. D&D could be played with 20 people around the same table. It's just, most people wouldn't find that fun.

Personally I won't play with more than 5 players + DM.

I think both the game itself and the social/engagement side of it break down after that.

[HappyDaze]

Most of the time is spent watching other people play D&D.

Everyone has a threshold of how many players they are willing to play with. D&D could be played with 20 people around the same table. It's just, most people wouldn't find that fun.

Personally I won't play with more than 5 players + DM.

I think both the game itself and the social/engagement side of it break down after that.

As a player, there are other games that keep me more involved during other players' turns. Comparatively, D&D with more than a few players is like a stop motion animation where the changes from frame to frame are painfully obvious.