Undead Society

[Goober4473]

I'm running a game in a world that has a very large population of undead, and they have formed a society, based on etiquette, rather than ethics. I thought I'd post the rules and cities of the society, to see what you all think.

Cities:
Necropolis
Population: 22,440 (82% undead, 16% mindless undead, 2% others)
Necropolis, a sprawling mass of crypts, cathedrals, and courtyards, surrounded by a massive dark iron wall lined with spires of bone. In the center lies the Scythius Focus, a crystalline obelisk, always glowing with a dark purple light, that provides negative energy to power the city. Here sits the Sentinel, a being of immense power that rules over all of Undead Society. It is said that she is an undead goddess, or a goddess trapped in the body of an undead creature. No record of her origin is known to exist. Whatever she is, she is unlike any other being, though she resembles a simple necropolitan.

The city contains homes, working places, markets, shops, and others places of business one would expect to find in a city of its size, but every citizen is undead, or something close. Manual labor is primarily done by mindless undead servants, while more intellectual, artistic, and creative work is done by the citizens. As many have no need for upkeep, food and other sustenance is rarely sold, and some citizens choose to remain in there homes, ignoring the world outside.

Necropolis is made up of a great deal of corporeal undead that have no dietary needs, such as necropolitans, corpse creatures, bone creatures, and liches. Mortals must have special privilege to enter outside of specific guidelines. It has no guards or military to speak of, and has open trade with the City of Shade, and Cruentus, which each bow to the power of the Sentinel, but have little other allegiance with Necropolis.

Cruentus
Population: 13,570 (86% undead, 8% mindless undead, 6% others)
Cruentus, or the City of Blood as it often known, is home to a vast majority of undead that hunger, for blood, flesh, energy, or any other obsession an undead could imagine, foremost the vampires and their spawn. It is notorious for its cruelty towards mortals, yet it attracts the most of any undead city, because of its even stronger reputation for decadence and indulgence.

Cruentus has no walls, and all are welcome, at their own risk. All manner of foods, drinks, drugs, art, tools, weapons, and slaves can be found for sale here, and the city regularly trades with undead and mortals alike.

The City of Shade
Population: 10,150 (93% undead, 6% mindless undead, 1% others)
Like Necropolis, the City of Shade is surrounded by a wall of dark iron. Unlike Necropolis, there are no doors. It is a city made up of primarily incorporeal undead and their servants. Incorporeal and ethereal walls, and those made of force, provide the true walls of this city. These walls contain gates, and make up many buildings when combined with stone and metal.

The City of Shade is independent and only rarely trades with the outside. Mortals are almost never allowed inside.

Undead Society:
Killing:
No member of the Society is to kill, destroy, attack, or bring knowing harm to any other without provocation outside of a declared conflict.

Respect:
No member of the Society is to steal, use mental domination, or otherwise disrespect the property or individual freedom of any other member.

Disruption:
No member of the Society is to bring harm to the Society. This includes the summoning or creation of dangerous beings or objects, or taking any other action that might disrupt or damage any member, city, or territory that is not in a declared conflict with the summoner/creator.

Conflict:
Any member of the Society may declare a conflict with any other member of equal or lower rank. The target of the declaration must be made aware, and given one week to prepare. All servants, slaves, minions, spawn, students, or others under the command of a member in a conflict are also part of that conflict, as are any declared allies, beginning three days after they have been declared. The conflict must be declared as either non-lethal, semi-lethal, or lethal. At any time, either member of the conflict may increase the type of the conflict, but they must make this known to the other member, and they must be allowed one week to prepare before the change takes place. A conflict may end only when both members agree to its end, at which point it ends immediately.

During a non-lethal conflict, the members must participate in an agreed upon challenge or bet, which must resolve the conflict in some way. A game, non-lethal duel, or other competition, on which rides the gain or loss of territory, servants, slaves, minions, spawn, or other property that is transferable and in dispute of true ownership.

During a semi-lethal conflict, the members must participate in a challenge similar to a non-lethal conflict, however the conflict may include lethal duels between the members and/or their followers/allies. This includes artificial wars confined to a specific battlefield, one-on-one fights, and anything in between.

During a lethal conflict, the members are allowed to kill, destroy, enter territory without announcement, steal, and otherwise harm or disrespect any enemy in the conflict, so long as it does not harm or disrespect any other member not in the conflict, unless those members knowingly put themselves into the path of the conflict by entering a battlefield or a conflicting member’s territory.

Ranks:
The Society is broken into five ranks. All members begin at the rank of Initiate, as students, followed by Experienced, normal members of the Society, Noble, advanced members that contribute to the Society, Elder, members who control territory and have great responsibility to the Society, and finally Master, obtained only by the grace of the Sentinel, rulers of the cities. Members may increase in rank by being sponsored by a member of higher rank than the rank they wish to attain. The sponsor is responsible for the member for the next year, limiting the sponsoring of unworthy students that will bring shame and punishment to the sponsor.

Creation:
Members who create other undead are directly responsible for them. Unintelligent and servant undead must be kept under control, and registered in case control is lost. Free-willed undead must be initiated into the Society and the creating member must take them as students, and is responsible for their actions, until they reach the Experienced rank. Students may be transferred to another member of at least Noble rank if the student, teacher, and new teacher all agree.

Members of Initiate rank are not allowed to create undead of any kind. Accidental creations must be reported to an Elder or Master. Experienced members are not allowed to create free-willed undead, and must register all servant undead with an Elder or Master. Noble members must obtain permission from an Elder or higher in order to create any intelligent undead, and must register servants as Experienced members. Elders and Masters may create undead freely.

Territories:
Undead of the rank Elder or higher may claim and own territory. If no other member disputes their claim, it dimply becomes theirs. If a dispute occurs, a conflict must take place in order to determine ownership. Once a territory is owned, members must make their presence known to the owned when they enter. Members must obey all rules defined by the owner that do not conflict with the Society when in the territory of another member. These rules must be made known to those who enter before they can be enforced.

Mortals:
Members of the Society are not to harm mortals unless it is necessary for the member’s survival. Agreements must be made with mortal civilization in order to gain continual sustenance or tribute. Otherwise mortals may not be harmed except in self-defense or when in dire need of nourishment that must be obtained by this harm.

[Finerty]

Wow. Awesome. I've always loved monster races, and especially the undead. I recently got my hands on Libris Mortis, and it's quickly become one of my favourite books. I definitely like this fluff, and will probably yoink it at some point.

[The Neoclassic]

Very cool. Sorry I don't have much to say, but it seems quite solid.

[Istari]

I like it but why respect mortals like that?

[Jack_Simth]

I like it by why respect mortals like that?
Couple of reasons (in no particular order).

Mortals often have access to Turn Undead (which can be devastating to undead society). If the undead society does not provoke the mortals, they are unlikely to be attacked.

Mortals (postmortem) are the source of material for new members of the society of undead. Without their presence, the society of undead can't grow. Even when undead society wins against mortals, they still lose, as they cannot grow their numbers to deal with the occasional loss as quickly. Most causes of mortal death do not render them useless for reanimation; let them die of old age, disease, starvation, and wild animals; it does not anger them. Attacking them directly does. War with the mortals is a bad idea.

Those who actively kill the mortal population could increase their own power (they know exactly when the body will be available). However, every mortal killed in such a fashion is one that is less likely to breed, and is not up for grabs by the rest of the undead society. The individual who does so is strengthening themselves at a short-term cost to others, and at a long-term net cost to the entirety of undead society.

Plus there is the possibility of altruistic undead.

Of course, how dire is required for "dire need" is undefined. Any undead that must hunt mortals for sustenance can do so freely, or not, depending on the "judge" in the area that makes the call.

[Armoury99]

Always nice to see deadites getting organised :smallsmile:

As to other laws/cultural standards of the dead, I'd suggest:

Thou Shalt Not Turn or Rebuke - since either ability is obviously highly painful/traumatising for undead. They might well have broad prohibitions against most religions, as being undead is pretty much synonimous with being damned and a way to escape your final "reward." Undead culture might well have a downer on gods in general: Good priesthoods can inflict terror and destruction on the populace, but imagine how much worse evil cults might seem - given that most of them have the granted power to enslave the waking dead to their will?

No Spawn Without a Permit! - Undead society may not feel many of the pressures of its living counterpart, but since most undead "procreate" by transforming living people (and more importantly, traditionally have control over the new creature), the situation could swiftly get out of control as every power bloc in town tries to bolster itself with created minions. This makes voting pretty interesting too, if they're trying to be democratic.

Lastly (and more a cultural view than a law...) undead probably don't put a lot of stock in appearances; after all, the majority are going to be pretty gruesome-looking. Certain breeds of undead might be proud of their appearance but most undead probably believe that "its what's inside that counts." Undead are probably pretty egalitarian (death: the great evener) and unprejudiced by race, colour, station, or creed. A very admirable society.... until you get to the humans kept in cages like battery chickens, or course. :smallamused:

[Yeril]

"It's whats inside that counts." ~ Karhen Hammersmith, Dwarf Necroplotian
"Maggots?" ~ Mathias Baker, Human Lich.

[Goober4473]

No Spawn Without a Permit!

I think the fact that you're responsible for your spawns' actions, and that you need to be higher rank in order to be allowed to make undead is enough.


Thou Shalt Not Turn or Rebuke

Interesting, but remember, you're allowed to kill, torture, control, or otherwise harm in any way an undead you are in a lethal conflict with. Not to mention all the other undead abominations that unlive outside of their society.


depending on the "judge" in the area that makes the call

There aren't really judges per say. Members are just supposed to police eachother. If everyone all at once decided to ignore a rule, all they'd have to do is convince or collectively deal with the Sentinel, and the rule wouldn't exist anymore. But if one member starts to ignore a rule, then everyone else is going to gang up on them. So you have members enforcing the rules just because they don't want to look bad and make enemies. It just so happens that the ones who have the most reputation to protect are the most powerful and highest rank, and in order to get promoted, they'd need to have been sponsored by someone else who risked their reputation on them, meaning they wouldn't have been promoted if the sponsor didn't think they would uphold the rules, thereby protecting the sponsor's reputation.

I'm also considering adding a mark that all members have that tells whenever they break the rules, but I'm not sure.

[EvilElitest]

Couple of reasons (in no particular order).

Mortals often have access to Turn Undead (which can be devastating to undead society). If the undead society does not provoke the mortals, they are unlikely to be attacked.

Mortals (postmortem) are the source of material for new members of the society of undead. Without their presence, the society of undead can't grow. Even when undead society wins against mortals, they still lose, as they cannot grow their numbers to deal with the occasional loss as quickly. Most causes of mortal death do not render them useless for reanimation; let them die of old age, disease, starvation, and wild animals; it does not anger them. Attacking them directly does. War with the mortals is a bad idea.

Those who actively kill the mortal population could increase their own power (they know exactly when the body will be available). However, every mortal killed in such a fashion is one that is less likely to breed, and is not up for grabs by the rest of the undead society. The individual who does so is strengthening themselves at a short-term cost to others, and at a long-term net cost to the entirety of undead society.

Plus there is the possibility of altruistic undead.

Of course, how dire is required for "dire need" is undefined. Any undead that must hunt mortals for sustenance can do so freely, or not, depending on the "judge" in the area that makes the call.

But despite that
1. If your talking of food source and reproduction, cattle
2. Undead as a rule tend to be and socipathic, so I'm confused on the amount of respect shown
3. Most undead feed on mortals for pleasure, even if not if it is not necessary. I use ghouls of all kinds as a example of undead that just enjoy human flesh despite not needing it to survive, shadows and wraiths hate the living with their limited intelligence, while vampires need them to survive, and thus would look at them as cattle, and Liches wouldn't be to happy with their existence ether
4. A good deal of undead seem to envy and hate the living as a rule
from,
EE

[Draken]

According to Libris Mortis, all undead that feed on the living either need it to survive or are draw to do so by a kind of "psychological need" called Inescapable Craving, like an addiction, I think, they begin to get more and more irrational (int and wisdow loss) as they get more hungry, while the diet dependant (like vampires) suffer cha loss, going into coma.

But can or cannot be more or like what i said, must go check it again to be sure.

Directed at EE.

[Goober4473]

1. If your talking of food source and reproduction, cattle
2. Undead as a rule tend to be and socipathic, so I'm confused on the amount of respect shown
3. Most undead feed on mortals for pleasure, even if not if it is not necessary. I use ghouls of all kinds as a example of undead that just enjoy human flesh despite not needing it to survive, shadows and wraiths hate the living with their limited intelligence, while vampires need them to survive, and thus would look at them as cattle, and Liches wouldn't be to happy with their existence ether
4. A good deal of undead seem to envy and hate the living as a rule

1. That's sort of one idea. But they tend to make "deals" with mortals, rather than just dominating them and risking rebellion. Most undead don't realize this, and they resent the rule, but the more powerful and experienced members will understand, and enforce the rules.

2. They respect power. If you break a rule, everyone else is pissed off. Everyone else ism roe powerful than just you.

3. With the proper deals made, it's not a problem for intelligent rational undead, especially in Cruentus. Regular ghouls and the like that can't control themselves are dominated minions, or destroyed on sight.

4. Maybe, but what can they do? They may have no remorse for the living, they may hate them with every fiber of their being, but they still fear the rest of their society, and even the most powerful fear the Sentinel. So if one guy says, "hey, I'm gonna go kill people. Scre the rules," and the Sentinel says, "no, don't," who is everyone else going to side with?

[Jack_Simth]

There aren't really judges per say. Members are just supposed to police eachother. If everyone all at once decided to ignore a rule, all they'd have to do is convince or collectively deal with the Sentinel, and the rule wouldn't exist anymore. But if one member starts to ignore a rule, then everyone else is going to gang up on them. So you have members enforcing the rules just because they don't want to look bad and make enemies. It just so happens that the ones who have the most reputation to protect are the most powerful and highest rank, and in order to get promoted, they'd need to have been sponsored by someone else who risked their reputation on them, meaning they wouldn't have been promoted if the sponsor didn't think they would uphold the rules, thereby protecting the sponsor's reputation.There's a reason I put "judge" in quotes. It's meant to be a loose term as I used it there.

Darkwing, a Vampire society member kills a human, and drains him of blood.

Somebody (or several somebodies) stops and thinks "okay, was that self defense? Was that dire need?" and then arranges for action depending on their judgment call.

Regardless of who does it, or how official the capacity, the person/people who make the call fit the role of "judge" as I meant it to be used in that spot.

EvilElitest:
He's world-building. "As a rule" doesn't necessarily apply. Reasons don't need to be air-tight... and most of your objections are based on personality, which is based on the campaign. The reasons I listed are things an intelligent undead could get behind (not necessarily would).

Besides, it can make for some more interesting plots when the undead aren't all "I cannot stand the stench of life! You must Die!!!"

[Goober4473]

Undead are people too. :smallwink:

[Yakk]

A "maker's mark" mark of some kind on each member of the society makes sense. It would make it harder to hide "wild" undead in the city.

I could imagine regular slave and corpse caravans arriving, and being sold for magical trinkets produced by the undead.

The "1 year" seems to short of a time. Undead are unaging, and should be in no hurry. Change the 1 year to 10 or 100 years.

[de-trick]

nice I know theres a adventure in a dungeon like this but they attacked anyone nonundead at night

good times though

[puppyavenger]

mind if I yoink this wonderful wonderful idea?

[DraPrime]

Very very very awesome. Not much more to say, although some of the laws don't seem like something that undead would respect. Like not harming mortals? Seriously, these things are resurrected corpses charged with evil, so why would they do that? Only the LE ones would really follow those laws.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm... I suppose it does need something about the purchasing of mortals (for sustenance, breeding, or other purposes) beyond the brief note about agreements with mortal civilizations - notes about slave caravans, caught criminals, and so forth. Most individual undead wouldn't be making agreements with neighboring countries, after all.

[DracoDei]

Regarding Rebuke/Command undead:
Seems the most convenient way to keep the mindless undead under control and doing what needs to be done. "Steal" others mindless undead would be a crime like any other theft, and using it on intelligent undead would be a major crime, but I definitely see it as part of society... also remember that 1/3 of liches are going to be clerics if I remember correctly...

[puppyavenger]

by the way are you saying that negative energy in camagn is evil or that undwead get to choose?

[Leliel]

Very very very awesome. Not much more to say, although some of the laws don't seem like something that undead would respect. Like not harming mortals? Seriously, these things are resurrected corpses charged with evil, so why would they do that? Only the LE ones would really follow those laws.

Except negative energy is not evil, and besides, this isn't even true by RAW(Ghosts and Necropolitans).

I like it. Good to see an Undead society that is far from hostile, let alone evil.

[Kevlimin_Soulaxe]

Except negative energy is not evil...

I'd say energy that sucks the life from a being simple by its presence isn't exactly flowers and kittens either.

[Goober4473]

Negative energy isn't evil. To say that it's evil because it hurts people is an argument for why positive energy is evil to an undead. Negative energy can heal undead, and not all undead are evil.

There is a rule against harming mortals because the Sentinel said so. If you don't like it, take it up with her, or the thousands of other undead who follow her. We've already been over why it makes sense (genocide hardly benefits their society), but the real issue is, no one has challenged the rules yet and (un)lived.

The agreements thing is pretty vague. You can lie to mortals about details. You could get them to agree to saccrifice a virgin every month or two in exchange for protection from something that doesn't exist. Or, more likely, just take the criminals in exchange for some zombie labor/guards, a few cured diseases, etc. If you need a new apprentice, there's a good chance you could find a mortal who wants to join you. In the setting I made this for, mortal life is pretty bad. The world is half dead, people get tainted, diseased, and mauled by horrible monsters constantly. Life expectancy is short for most people, and ressurection magic doesn't exist. They're desperate a lot of the time.


mind if I yoink this wonderful wonderful idea?
Go for it. Anything I post is up for yoinkage, so long as you don't claim it as yours.

[Jack_Simth]

The agreements thing is pretty vague. You can lie to mortals about details. You could get them to agree to saccrifice a virgin every month or two in exchange for protection from something that doesn't exist. Or, more likely, just take the criminals in exchange for some zombie labor/guards, a few cured diseases, etc. If you need a new apprentice, there's a good chance you could find a mortal who wants to join you. In the setting I made this for, mortal life is pretty bad. The world is half dead, people get tainted, diseased, and mauled by horrible monsters constantly. Life expectancy is short for most people, and ressurection magic doesn't exist. They're desperate a lot of the time.
Picture a lowly ghoul in this society. They're CR 1, and intelligent (and thus eligible for citizenship). A couple of warrior archers can take one down pretty easily (so no protection racket), it can't really trick anyone (no bluff), can't make zombie labor (no spells), can't heal anyone (no spells), and so on. Most the ghoul can hope for is a regular job; not something with which to blackmail a duke for a sacrifice once a month.

Depending on the price of a slave, though, a ghoul that spends his unlife Crafting (untrained) for an average of 5.75 gp per week can afford one once a month with a little left over. If you swap some skill ranks around (and make Craft a class skill like it is for *almost* everyone else) that goes up to 8.25 per week.

If a living slave goes for under 20 gp, and it's legal to eat a slave (need to mention that aspect - it's NOT perfectly legal to kill a slave in all slave-owning societies through history!), on the other hand, the ghoul is good to go. Plus, it gives reason for trade with other societies (needs a constant supply - there need to be roughly 20 times as many humanoids as 1/month humanoid-eating undead - and that's if the humanoids breed quickly, and don't mind having most their kids eaten - in order to maintain a ready supply; the local population of humanoids won't cover it).

[Goober4473]

Don't ghouls need to eat dead flesh, not recently dead flesh? Couldn't they just pick around a battlefield and grab food for a few months? The only other major diet dependancy is blood, which is renewable, and vampires and the liek could easily just pay people for it if they needed to. Other things like life force may be a bit harder, but that's what criminals/slaves are good for.

Generally, you don't create a diet-dependant undead unless you can support it, and teach it to support itself. Otherwise you risk your reputation, which can directly result in being destroyed for many undead.

The most common agreement with mortals is to hand over dead bodies, or leave them on battlefields, in exchange for a high ranking undead to watch over them and make sure everyone is obeying the undead rules. Almost every mortal society has at least this level of agreement with the undead.

[edit]: Also, flesh, blood, life force, and draining ability scores can all be sated by harming animals, which there are no specific rules against.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, that's not exactly what I mean.

Suppose, for a minute, that a random mortal decides to create some undead, and lets loose some ghouls (or other intelligent undead that must harm/kill the living to continue to exist).

Some of them, being intelligent (and, as they're Chaotic by default, there is going to be a wide range of choices) decide that it would be better to follow the societies' laws than not.

Assuming, for the moment, that they can't find anyone who's simply going to keep them fed, but can find an Experienced sponsor enough to get them up to the Initiate rank... provided that they can arrange for their own maintenance, what are they to do?

You need something of a going rate for a "food-stock slave" - convicted criminals where the punishment is sale to the undead as food stock, household slaves who ran into accidents (or over-harsh punishments) such that they're no longer useful for labor, and so on. Under about 20 gp, and an 1 life/month Int-10 (or better) undead with no ranks can "take 10" on a make a living Craft check to cover the meal expense. Over that, and such a creature cannot join the society (but can be inducted or created by something willing to take on the maintenance). Under that, and the undeads have something left over to get out of the rain, purchase clothing and other items, and so on.

[Goober4473]

Buying corpses probably isn't terribly expensive. Ghouls need dead people (or animals, I believe), not live slaves.

[DracoDei]

Depends on how ruthlessly pragmatic people are about selling off dead relatives, and what various religions have to say about it. But the thing about animals is a VERY good point that I think most people aren't paying enough attention to... also, as I read it the hunger of ghouls is endless, but actually not technically required for their existance.

[SilverClawShift]

I'd just like to say how much I like this. The idea that intelligent undead would form a society based on being formal, using some kind of warped 'chivalry' to maintain order... Nice. That's all there really is to say about it.

[Yakk]

Buying corpses won't be that expensive, when the alternative is "we will unleash the hordes of doom upon you if you do not -- I advise you to make sending corpses to the city of the dead be a core part of your society and religion!"

[Lyinginbedmon]

Depends on how ruthlessly pragmatic people are about selling off dead relatives, and what various religions have to say about it. But the thing about animals is a VERY good point that I think most people aren't paying enough attention to... also, as I read it the hunger of ghouls is endless, but actually not technically required for their existance.

A ghoul is diet-dependent on Flesh. That means it needs to eat it every 3 days or make a DC 15 Will save to avoid taking 2d4 Wisdom damage. If they make the save, they can wait another 3 days.

When their Wisdom reaches 0, they become ravening beasts that do everything, even if it might destroy them, to get food.

This is from Libris Mortis.

[DracoDei]

I advise you to make sending corpses to the city of the dead be a core part of your society and religion!"

Society: That works to one degree or another.
Religion: Not so much... when the Gods are as vocal as they are in most campaigns... although they might cause people to switch religions by such tactics...



Lyinginbedmon: I am not familiar with Liber Mortis, and so did not know that... that clarifies it.

[Goober4473]

Interesting side note: There is very little religion in the world I'm using this for, and the gods are mostly silent.

[DracoDei]

That meshes then.