eh need more help with Grapple mechanics :(

[Agrias]

I'm trying to learn the grapple mechanics but it's so confusing and often hard to find the correct answer to a given situation.
So I thought I would ask for help with some specific examples.
Sorry in advance I know grapple questions are often asked and really annoying.
Just trying to write those questions is confusing but I hope I made them clear enough.

Lets say we have a giant snake that has two attacks. 1 Bite and 1 Tail. And he can Grapple as free action after he hits with either one of them.

1. If he decides to attack with Bite, he hits and succeeds on grapple can he still either attack the already grappled player with his tail with -4 modifier (think its -4 modifier for attacking while grappling) or can he instead try to attack with his tail second target and grapple as well. If so does it mean he has one player held in his mouth and another wrapped by his tail?

2. If the monster grappled player with his bite can he still make a bite attack next round vs that target or just the grapple check to do constrict damage.

3. How and when exactly can you try to pin your enemy and what pinning does? Is it something different than taking -20 grapple check to avoid being flat-footed?

4. What exactly happens when a monster wins grapple with -20 penalty to avoid being flat-footed.
Does he have both his tail and bite attack free thanks to that and he's holding his enemy with just his body weight or something?

4a) Can he grapple with his Bite with -20 and then grapple with his Tail with -20 and have still both his Tail and Bite free while grappling two targets?

4b) Can the monster take -20 grapple right after hitting the target with tail or bite or is this -20 grapple only usable later after you won the initial normal grapple check?

4c) If the monster won grapple with -20 and it's players turn now. When he tries to escape the grapple does the monster needs to win the opposite grapple check with -20 to avoid being flat-footed still?

4d) How many times player can try to escape in his round? Only once as full action? or as many times as his BAB lets him.

4e) If the monster previously won the grapple with -20 check and now the player succeeded on escaping does it mean he's free or they both end up in a normal grapple now and monster is flat-footed. If player isn't completely free yet and they both in normal grapple still can he try to escape again in the same round if he has 2 attack thanks to high BAB (considering 4d question assuming that high BAB lets you do more than one escape action in the same round)

[Zaq]

Monster grapple abilities are usually, though not always, subject to special rules depending on the specific abilities of the monster in question. I'll answer these questions as best as I can, but if there's anything weird in the statblock or the ability descriptions of the specific snake you're using, those can throw this out of whack. Basically, just tack a clause like "barring an ability to the contrary" on the end of pretty much everything here, because there are so many exceptions.

1. Does the monster's full attack block include both one bite attack and one tail attack as part of the same full attack (probably with one primary and one secondary), or does it have to choose on each round which one it's using? Because the answer is likely to change based on that. Per Rules Compendium (RC) pg. 60, "if you have succeeded in starting the grapple and have remaining attacks, you can use those attacks to perform other maneuvers allowed in a grapple." Natural weapons are kind of weird because they don't get iteratives and are kind of case-by-case as far as how many you can use in a single full attack. The prior sentence talks about making multiple attempts to start a grapple with multiple attacks from a high BAB, but the "remaining attacks" sentence is technically separate and doesn't mention BAB at all.

Now, once you hit and establish the grapple, you're normally "grappling," and that puts restrictions on what you can do. (RC 60: "Regardless of who started the grapple, while you're grappling, you can perform only the following maneuvers.") You can't normally attack someone who isn't in the grapple with you, barring an ability to the contrary. You are allowed to attack with, among other things, a natural weapon (with that -4 penalty), but RC 61 says "a creature can attack with only one of its natural weapons on its turn while grappling, unless it has a special ability that allows it to do otherwise or its description provides an exception." Since we're using natural attacks anyway (and therefore it's only the extra natural weapon that lets us take this second "grappling action" [note: "grappling action" is not a rules term, but I'm going to use it to refer to "maneuver that you can use in a grapple"] in the first place, this gets messy.

You can also simply use the "Damage Your Opponent" grappling action to make a grapple check to do nonlethal damage equal to your unarmed strike. Though determining a snake's unarmed strike damage is awkward. This whole thing is awkward.

Now, of course, if the snake happens to have Improved Grab, we need to start looking at the general Improved Grab rules (RC pg. 101), remembering that specific text in the snake's description will beat the general rule. If the snake uses IG, it can choose to "conduct the grapple normally [using the options I mentioned above] or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but it isn't considered grappled itself. Thus, the creature isn't denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents." Because of that language saying that it "uses the part of its body its used in the improved grab," it's implied that the bite (for example) is occupied and can't be used until the grapple stops. But other than that, if you choose to not be grappled, then you aren't subject to the normal grapple restrictions. Just be aware that your grapple is much easier to break.

As far as the second target goes, you couldn't grapple two things by default, but if you use the IG "I'm not really grappling" rules, you can attack two things in sequence and try to grapple the second one (while still pseudograppling the first one).

(Good hell but these rules are awful, aren't they?)

2. RC 60-61 covers this one pretty much just with the text mentioned above. You can attack with a natural weapon while grappling, but only one at a time. Basically, if you're considered to be grappling, you don't have to specify which part of your body is doing the grappling (so you don't have to have the bite be "occupied"), but you only get to use one natural weapon at a time. In contrast, if you use the "I'm not considered grappling" -20 option of Improved Grab, you aren't subject to the grappling restrictions, but it's pretty clear that the intent is that your bite (or whatever) is "occupied" with the grapple and can't be used separately.

You mentioned constrict damage. RC 100 has general rules about constricting, but you'll also probably want to refer to the snake's statblock, because constrict damage is usually pretty unique. But the big thing to remember is that your options are very different if you're grappling normally or if you're using the "not considered grappling" option of IG.

3. Pinning is possible after you establish a grapple and you spend a grapple action (which, remember, isn't a rules term) establishing a pin. RC 61 describes in detail exactly what options you have if you're pinning someone and what options and effects stem from being pinned. It's quite separate from the "grappling but not considered grappling" option of Improved Grab. (Remember once more that you can still grapple normally with Improved Grab, if you choose.)

4. This is pretty much what I've been referring to as the "not considered grappling" option. The relevant text has already been mentioned. I interpret the "use the part of its body" clause to mean that the hand, natural weapon, appendage, etc. used in the triggering attack is occupied and can't be used for anything else while exercising this option. The rules are slightly ambiguous, but not so much so that I believe that there's a terribly strong argument for anything else. So by this option, the "hand" (just gonna say "hand" for ease, even though snakes don't have hands) that triggered the improved grab is not available to you, but whatever other parts of your body you have to attack with are just fine.

4a. Under my interpretation, no. You can bite with the -20 and use the tail at -20, but then both the bite and the tail are (separately) occupied and you'd need another appendage to do anything else with. If you take a looser interpretation of the rules and don't designate the body part used in the grab as off-limits to anything but the grab in question (which is an interpretation I personally disagree with), then I guess what you described could work, but I don't think that this is what the rules really say.

4b. I think that the choice is made immediately upon making the initial grapple triggered by the improved grab (in effect, while you're trying to establish the grapple in the first place). I don't believe that you get to switch after the grapple is in effect (without dropping it and starting from zero, of course).

What's not 100% clear is whether the initial (establishing) grapple check takes the -20 penalty or if that only applies to subsequent checks; this is open to a bit of interpretation. My personal interpretation is that everything associated with the "I'm not grappling" grapple is limited by the fact that you're not putting your whole body into it, so it's both harder to establish the initial grapple and harder to hold it or exercise control over it. (In other words, I believe that the -20 does apply to the establishing grapple check.)

The opposing argument is that the text first talks about making the free-action grapple check, starts a new paragraph, discusses "when a creature gets a hold after an improved grab," and then in a later sentence in the paragraph starting "when a creature gets a hold..." talks about the -20 option. So the argument that differs from mine is that you establish the hold first and then choose whether you're "fully grappling" (not a rules term) or using the "I'm not really grappling" option. You're reading the same text I am and should probably have that discussion with your GM or your group; as I said, my opinion goes one way, but that's the argument for the other option.

4c. Yes. After you've chosen to "not be grappling" and take that -20 penalty, all of your grapple checks related to that specific grapple are at -20.

4d. This gets weird. Some of the grapple maneuvers are attacks or are used in place of attacks, specifically "attack your opponent," "damage your opponent," "escape from grapple" (kinda), "pin your opponent," "break another's pin," or "use opponent's weapon." So if you want to just use one of those as a standard action, you can, or if you have multiple attacks from a high BAB, you can use as many of these options (including repeats of the same one, if appropriate) as you would have attacks in a full attack (ignoring TWF and similar), which takes a full-round action.

In addition to that, though, some of the grapple maneuvers AREN'T attacks or used in placed of attacks. Those are totally separate and can't be used in the same way. For example, escaping with Escape Artist (instead of with a grapple check) is a standard action, moving the grapple is a standard action, and drawing a light weapon is a move action. So if you spend a full-round action to get multiple maneuvers in place of a full attack, you can't use the options like drawing a light weapon unless you've got extra actions from somewhere.

So if a PC with enough BAB to get iteratives is grappled, they can make a single Escape Artist check as a standard action OR they can take a full-round action to make multiple grapple checks (one per attack granted by BAB). Or some other combination of maneuvers, as appropriate.

4e. No. If the snake used the "not considered grappling" option at -20, it's simply not considered grappling, but the target (PC) is. If the target escapes from the grapple by whatever means, the grapple is simply over and neither party is affected by it anymore. Similarly, if the snake just grappled normally and the target escaped, neither one is considered grappled anymore.

Man, these are some awful rules, aren't they? Hope that helped a little, at least. If you prefer the PHB and MM to the RC, you'll want pgs. 155-157 of the PHB and pg. 310 of the MM, but I like the Rules Compendium better.

[Agrias]

Thanks for all the help. Now I got some answers and even more questions but still I learned something important that I somehow completely missed. I failed to notice that Improved Grapple and Improved Grab are completely two different feats GG must have rolled 1 on my spot check :P I never read the Improved Grab feat before lul I just always checked Improved Grapple that's why this -20 check was so confusing.

[Necroticplague]

2. If the monster grappled player with his bite can he still make a bite attack next round vs that target or just the grapple check to do constrict damage.You don't grapple check just to do constrict damage. You can grapple check to do unarmed damage. Constrict just happens to trigger off any grapple check.

However, to more directly answer your question: he can do either one. Grapple checks to do damage and attacking someone with a natural weapon are both valid options in a grapple (though the latter takes a -4 penalty).

Do, however, note that Improved Grab would let you do the bite's damage on each grapple check to do damage as well, so the grapple to do damage and trigger Improved Grab and Constrict is probably the better option.


3. How and when exactly can you try to pin your enemy and what pinning does? Is it something different than taking -20 grapple check to avoid being flat-footed?
Pinning someone is an attack action, like tripping or starting a grapple normally (i.e, you get one as a standard action, and bonus based on your BaB using a full-attack). Being pinned is drastically different from improved Grab's -20 benefit.

If You’re Pinned by an Opponent

When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling. So pinning someone doesn't make you not considered grappled like Improved Grab does, but it's considerably more debilitating to the enemy, as well as making it harder for them to wriggle out next turn (since they'd need to wriggle out of pin, then wriggle out of grapple, in one turn).


4. What exactly happens when a monster wins grapple with -20 penalty to avoid being flat-footed.
Does he have both his tail and bite attack free thanks to that and he's holding his enemy with just his body weight or something? When you take that -20, you essentially ignore the downsides of grappling. Not flat-footed, still threaten, and can attack people who aren't the guy you're wrestling with. However, the weapon you used to initiate the grab is 'tied up' in the grapple.

the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.
So if you bit down and latched on to someone, you can try and simply keep them in your jaw while your body lashes around, but you can't bit someone else while your moth is latching on to someone.


4a) Can he grapple with his Bite with -20 and then grapple with his Tail with -20 and have still both his Tail and Bite free while grappling two targets? Nope, see above. At that point, he'd have no remaining attacks.


4b) Can the monster take -20 grapple right after hitting the target with tail or bite or is this -20 grapple only usable later after you won the initial normal grapple check? The truth is the opposite of the question. You only have the option to grapple with -20 after you hit the weapon that has improved grab.


4c) If the monster won grapple with -20 and it's players turn now. When he tries to escape the grapple does the monster needs to win the opposite grapple check with -20 to avoid being flat-footed still? Yep, until he re-initiate the grapple normally, the snake will always eat that -20 on the grapple checks (in return for always getting the benefits of not being grappling


4d) How many times player can try to escape in his round? Only once as full action? or as many times as his BAB lets him.
Neither of those are the answer

You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action.So you can try and use Escape Artist to get out as many times as you have standard actions, and you can use grapple checks to try and escape based on action used (standard or full round) and BaB (it's another attack action, like pinning).

You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action.4e) If the monster previously won the grapple with -20 check and now the player succeeded on escaping does it mean he's free or they both end up in a normal grapple now and monster is flat-footed.[/QUOTE]
If you escape a grapple with Improved Grab, you've escaped the grapple. Improved Grab isn't different in that respect. Only pinning or swallowing whole add a layer to the grapple like that.

However, just to stave off the follow up: If you are using grapple checks to escape, and used a full-attack action, yes, you could go for it and try to completely escape a grapple when you start pinned or swallowed.

EDIT: whoops, didn't realize this had already been answered.