Improvised vs Materwork Weapons and Thrown vs Amuunition

[Learn34]

Ladies and gentlemen;

Correct me if I'm wrong on these points:
1) Improvised weapons cannot be masterwork weapons, and thus cannot be enchanted.
2) Thrown Improvised weapons are treated as ammunition, suffering the Loss-on-Hit/50% Loss-on-Miss problem.
3) A hulking hurler must use an improvised weapon to benefit from improvised weapon damage rules (it could not, for instance, use an extremely-heavy material as the core of a javelin or other thrown weapon).
4) Absent the Exotic Weapon Master(?), one cannot take Weapon Focus(Improvised Weapon).

For context, I'm trying to come up with a self-sufficient Hulking Hurler build for a friend, and without someone to cast Major Creation I'm looking for a way for him to have a reusable item.

[RaiKirah]

The improvised weapons rules are really poorly written, and not particularly consistent.

I believe, by RAI, that you cannot enchant improvised weapons. That said, you can craft masterwork artwork, which you can then use as an improvised weapon, which would then technically be a masterwork weapon...

Your best bet though is to just use a chunk of Aurorum from the BoED, which repairs itself after breaking. You'll want a couple chunks so that you don't have to wait for a repair in combat.

A dip in Drunken Master will also reduce the chances of your improvised weapons breaking.

[Learn34]

A dip in Drunken Master will also reduce the chances of your improvised weapons breaking.

Thing is, I'm still not sure if/where RAW states improvised weapons break like ammo. None of the improvised weapon nor thrown weapon rules in the PHB or CW mention loss/destruction through use. Do you have a specific reference for where the break rules are written?

[RaiKirah]

Improvised weapons have a 1/4 chance of breaking on hit. Not sure if thrown improvised weapons have rules on breakay, but using the default or ammunition rules makes sense. Drunken Master explicitly reduces it to only break on a natural 1 attack roll

[liquidformat]

I believe the answer is rocks, you can get Weapon Focus and enhancements on them. Or I have also seen people using orc shotput with the size change ability. Or you could actually maybe use sling bullets with size changing as thrown weapons.

[Ashtagon]

Improvised weapons have a 1/4 chance of breaking on hit. Not sure if thrown improvised weapons have rules on breakay, but using the default or ammunition rules makes sense. Drunken Master explicitly reduces it to only break on a natural 1 attack roll

I'd really like a cite for this. The definitive 3.5 discussion was in Complete Warrior, which doesn't mention this fragility at all; nor does the PHB discussion on them. Speifically, PHB does not say that improvised thrown weapons are fragile (at least, not in the weapons chapter).

To be sure, d20 Modern lists this fragility at 50% chance per hit. But otoh, a lot of the items discussed there are genuinely breakable when not used as intended.

RACSD answer: Apply the break chance only to objects that are actually fragile. Rocks generally aren't fragile.

[ShurikVch]

1) Improvised weapons cannot be masterwork weapons, and thus cannot be enchanted.Actually, "Improvised" and "Masterwork" aren't mutually exclusive: for example, you can throw masterwork Greatsword, but without the Throwing WSA (or Throw Anything feat) - it's Improvised Weapon
Anyway, certain rare materials - such as Adamantine - make anything made of them count as "Masterwork"


4) Absent the Exotic Weapon Master(?), one cannot take Weapon Focus(Improvised Weapon).Also, Brawler PrC (Dragon #295):
Improvised Weapon Feats (Ex): At 2nd level, the brawler gains the ability to choose "improvised weapon" as the selected weapon when taking feats that require a selected weapon. Thus, feats such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical can have "improvised weapon" as the selected weapon. Making such a choice allows the brawler to apply that feat to any improvised weapon he uses.
Also, 1st-level CF of this PrC gives proficiency in Improvised Weapons

[Blue Jay]

Ladies and gentlemen;

Correct me if I'm wrong on these points:
1) Improvised weapons cannot be masterwork weapons, and thus cannot be enchanted.
2) Thrown Improvised weapons are treated as ammunition, suffering the Loss-on-Hit/50% Loss-on-Miss problem.
3) A hulking hurler must use an improvised weapon to benefit from improvised weapon damage rules (it could not, for instance, use an extremely-heavy material as the core of a javelin or other thrown weapon).
4) Absent the Exotic Weapon Master(?), one cannot take Weapon Focus(Improvised Weapon).

For context, I'm trying to come up with a self-sufficient Hulking Hurler build for a friend, and without someone to cast Major Creation I'm looking for a way for him to have a reusable item.

I'm of the opinion that you can't make improvised weapons into masterwork weapons, because the PHB heavily implies that you only use the improvised weapon rules for things that are not specifically designed for combat, and it's hard to argue that something isn't specifically designed for combat if it's a masterwork weapon.

I'd never heard of the Brawler PrC before this thread, but that's the only way I've ever heard that allows Weapon Focus (Improvised). To be honest though, I'd probably allow it for a player who was legitimately building around improvised weapons, like a Drunken Master type. But, if you're doing the Hulking Hurler thing, or trying to take advantage of the improvised weapon rules without actually having to improvise your weapons, then I likely wouldn't want to offer much leniency.

I think the magic weapon spell can be used on an improvised weapon. I might also allow a player to have an item that enhances improvised weapons in the same way a necklace of natural attacks enhances natural weapons. You might ask your DM about that.


Actually, "Improvised" and "Masterwork" aren't mutually exclusive: for example, you can throw masterwork Greatsword, but without the Throwing WSA (or Throw Anything feat) - it's Improvised Weapon

I'd be cautious here, because the PHB doesn't specifically say that throwing a greatsword makes it an improvised weapon: it just says you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls when throwing a weapon not meant to be thrown. I think that's just the nonproficiency penalty.

The distinction may seem a bit pedantic, but it does matter. If a thrown greatsword counts as an improvised weapon, then it has to use all the rules for improvised weapons, including the rules in Complete Warrior that assign damage based on weight. So, if a thrown greatsword truly counts as an improvised weapon, then it should only do 1d6 damage on a successful thrown attack.


Anyway, certain rare materials - such as Adamantine - make anything made of them count as "Masterwork"

Is this really true? The PHB says that adamantine weapons and armor are automatically masterwork, but I don't know of any source that expands this to say anything made of adamantine is automatically masterwork.

[DrMotives]

As far as the masterwork art being a thing, that wouldn't cut it in my group. A thing is masterwork for a given purpose, you have to pay masterworking seperately for each thing it's masterwork at. Example, firearems are ranged weapon, but they can used in melee as a club. This is handled like a double weapon, the ranged & melee parts don't interact. A tool that's also a weapon would have the same issue; like a forging hammer / warhammer could be masterwork as a weapon, and/or a tool, but you'd have to craft it with masterwork for both, and enhancing the bonuses on the tool & weapon wouldn't do anything for the other use.

TL;DR Venus de Milo's missing arms might be masterwork art, but if you swung them as improvised weapons, they'd be as regular as any other stone improvised thing.

[Deophaun]

TL;DR Venus de Milo's missing arms might be masterwork art, but if you swung them as improvised weapons, they'd be as regular as any other stone improvised thing.
Joke's on you. The Venus de Milo is an ancient weapon of mass destruction. The arms are the twin key system needed activate it. They were intentionally lost after what happened to Atlantis.

[ShurikVch]

Is this really true? The PHB says that adamantine weapons and armor are automatically masterwork, but I don't know of any source that expands this to say anything made of adamantine is automatically masterwork.Literally anything in the game may be an Improvised Weapon (helpfully demonstrated by the Hulking Hurler PrC) - thus, everything is a weapon; and weapon made of adamantine is automatically masterwork (even if it's just a tankard)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jmzIQ1sy3E