Quick Clearification

[Hunterx]

Upon looking at the Illumian race again I looked a little closer to the power sig Krau and as it reads from the book it looks like I can have some fun with this if it works the way I think it is going to but i need this cleared up.

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

So as we can see it says a +1 caster level for all spells and spell like abilities up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level.

So as I see this and i read this that means if you, cast a level 1 spell at 9th level you care casting that spell as a 10th level caster. Or are you casting it as a level 18 since you are level 9 then you get a +9 for 18? If it is the later can you use the extra caster levels to put metamagic effects on it? If this is the case I know i am going to have some fun and my DM is going to go out of his mind. I would also like to know how this would effect a warlock and their eldrich blast ?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm pretty sure all the ability means is that you can't boost your caster level higher than your character level with it.

All it would mean for Eldritch Blast is that it would be harder to dispel.

[DeTess]

Upon looking at the Illumian race again I looked a little closer to the power sig Krau and as it reads from the book it looks like I can have some fun with this if it works the way I think it is going to but i need this cleared up.

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

So as we can see it says a +1 caster level for all spells and spell like abilities up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level.

So as I see this and i read this that means if you, cast a level 1 spell at 9th level you care casting that spell as a 10th level caster. Or are you casting it as a level 18 since you are level 9 then you get a +9 for 18? If it is the later can you use the extra caster levels to put metamagic effects on it? If this is the case I know i am going to have some fun and my DM is going to go out of his mind. I would also like to know how this would effect a warlock and their eldrich blast ?

What this means is that an illumian playing, for example, a wizard 6/rogue 3 will cast spells with caster level 7. He gets a caster level of 6 from the wizard, and gets the +1 bonus because 7 is less than his character level (9). If he was a level 9 wizard he wouldn't get the bonus, as 10 would be more than his character level (9).

[ColorBlindNinja]

It does sound like a handy way to make up for lost caster levels. Kind of like Practiced Spellcaster.

[Hunterx]

My argument against that is that there is nothing that stats that it only works with cross classing. It clearly says that you get a +1 caster level to your character level. Where in with practiced spell caster does say it is used against your other class.

[ColorBlindNinja]

My argument against that is that there is nothing that stats that it only works with cross classing. It clearly says that you get a +1 caster level to your character level. Where in with practiced spell caster does say it is used against your other class.

It says up to your character level.

[Hunterx]

It says up to your character level.

Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus. For example, a human 5th-level cleric/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his cleric caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 HD). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his cleric caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 HD). A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect. This does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.

This is practice spell caster you can see that it gives an example of a cross class, saying it can gain the benifit even if it does not benifit from it right off the start there is nothing under Sigil Krau says this or even close to it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus. For example, a human 5th-level cleric/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his cleric caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 HD). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his cleric caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 HD). A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect. This does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.

This is practice spell caster you can see that it gives an example of a cross class, saying it can gain the benifit even if it does not benifit from it right off the start there is nothing under Sigil Krau says this or even close to it.

Can you quote the text verbatim?

[Hunterx]

Can you quote the text verbatim?

Yes it is in the opening post just scroll up

I see it like the marshal aura effect only this gives you +1 caster levels equal to your character level.

[Buufreak]

I'm not understanding where the confusion here is. If you indeed quoted it verbatim, then you can blatantly see the line of "up to your character level." As in +1, so long as said +1 doesn't exceed your total level.

[Hunterx]

[QUOTE=Buufreak;23633098]I'm not understanding where the confusion here is. If you indeed quoted it verbatim, then you can blatantly see the line of "up to your character level." As in +1, so long as said +1 doesn't exceed your total level.

Yes I can see that, I can also see +1 per character level up to a maximum of the character level. So with the Sigil active 10+10 is 20 the last time I added math.

Ok so, I'm have a level 10 Illumian with the Krau Sigil, I cast a fires ball, I add my caster level 10 plus the +1 per level from the Krau Sigil to make the fireball a caster level 20 fireball. Correct?

Maybe Fireball is not the best spell to use, let's take Mage armour, you get a +4 Armour for 1hr/level. At caster level 10 that is 10 hours so a Wiz or Src Illumian without Krau cast it for 10 hours but a Illumian with Krau would cast it for 20 hours since his caster level is equal to 20 not 10.

Since there is nothing saying anything about another class the class can stack upon itself. If not show me were it says this specifically toward this Sigil.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There's no way to read "+1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level)" as "+1 bonus per level". You can, if you want, read it as "the bonus granted by this ability may not be higher than your character level (but otherwise applies all the time)", but since +1 is trivially no higher than your character level, that requires that you assume a serious editorial oversight or a pointless aside.

[Hunterx]

There's no way to read "+1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level)" as "+1 bonus per level". You can, if you want, read it as "the bonus granted by this ability may not be higher than your character level (but otherwise applies all the time)", but since +1 is trivially no higher than your character level, that requires that you assume a serious editorial oversight or a pointless aside.

How can it not. Let's break this down bit by bit. How do you get a caster level, well you take a level in a caster class. Now Sigil says you get a +1 bonus to your caster level for all spells and spell like abilities up to a maximum of your character level. So if you are level 1 wizard you cast your spells as if you were a level 2 wizard. If you are a fighter level 1 and have the Sigil and some how get a spell like ability you cast that spell like ability as a level 1 caster, of course if the spell like ability says you caster level is based on your character level than you cast them at a caster level 2 not 1.

This is how I see it, and it coulee be very good for classes that are half caster levels like the GSA Prc which gets 1/2 caster level but with this would have full caster level.

[JNAProductions]

So, by that logic, practiced spellcaster gets you 5 CL for every one level in a casting class.

Do you see how that kinda breaks the game?

[Hunterx]

So, by that logic, practiced spellcaster gets you 5 CL for every one level in a casting class.

Do you see how that kinda breaks the game?

No and i have bold the reason why: You would have spellcaster level 1 non spellcaster level 1 PS caster level 2 if you had the sigil as well it would be Spellcaster 1 PS 1 sigil 1 for caster level 3 at level 2 which is the exact same as what I am saying. Until you have more than 4 noncaster levels. Than it would be, caster level 1 PS 4 (fighter4) for caster level 5, or caster level 1 PS 4 (fighter 4) Sigil 5 for caster level 10 at 5. Which again is the exact same thing Iam saying but if you have 5 in fighter it is 1 +4+6 for 11 instead of 6+6 for 12

However the Sigil does not have such a problem. The sigil simply says, +1 per caster level to a maximum of your character level. Now that does not mean you get more spells, unless you cast spontanesly or if you are a warlock.

Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus. For example, a human 5th-level cleric/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his cleric caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 HD). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his cleric caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 HD). A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect. This does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.

[DeTess]

However the Sigil does not have such a problem. The sigil simply says, +1 per caster level to a maximum of your character level. Now that does not mean you get more spells, unless you cast spontanesly or if you are a warlock.



No, it doesn't say that. It says: "+1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level)." 'To', not 'per', and the maximum value refers to the total which means you only ever get the +1 bonus. This is fair because this is a bonus from a race without level adjustment. If it had the description you claimed it had Illumians should cost you something around 6 levels of RHD and LA.

[Psychoalpha]

Basic benefit: +1 to your Caster Level.
Restriction: This benefit cannot increase your caster level above your character level.

Period, full stop. The Illumian race came out in 2004. It's been FIFTEEN YEARS, and you are the first person I have ever seen try to claim it reads the way you're reading it, because there is no actual interpretation of those words in that order that means what you say it does.

You are wrong. Repeating it as if people aren't reading what you're saying isn't going to change that. Everybody understands what you're saying, they're just having a hard time believing anyone would say it. Please stop.

[Hunterx]

No, it doesn't say that. It says: "+1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level)." 'To', not 'per', and the maximum value refers to the total which means you only ever get the +1 bonus. This is fair because this is a bonus from a race without level adjustment. If it had the description you claimed it had Illumians should cost you something around 6 levels of RHD and LA.

Ok it says to caster level. That does not mean that it is not each level, when the word to is used it mean in addition not maximum. The maximum is his character level so a 2nd level Illumian caster shoul be casting spell at third level. I do not see why this is so hard to see. It only effect duration damage range and DC and since the DC on most low level spells are so easy to pass it would make them better.

[Hunterx]

Basic benefit: +1 to your Caster Level.
Restriction: This benefit cannot increase your caster level above your character level.

Period, full stop. The Illumian race came out in 2004. It's been FIFTEEN YEARS, and you are the first person I have ever seen try to claim it reads the way you're reading it, because there is no actual interpretation of those words in that order that means what you say it does.

You are wrong. Repeating it as if people aren't reading what you're saying isn't going to change that. Everybody understands what you're saying, they're just having a hard time believing anyone would say it. Please stop.

Please tell me where it says it can not raise your caster level above your hit dice. Your right it doesn't, now I would like to direct you to the wild Mage, where they have a random ability that can and with the right buil give them a +1 to a +6 OVER their current hit dice. So with that please again explain where the race ability of the Illumian says it can not give you this benifit over your current hit dice.

[HouseRules]

Please tell me where it says it can not raise your caster level above your hit dice. Your right it doesn't, now I would like to direct you to the wild Mage, where they have a random ability that can and with the right buil give them a +1 to a +6 OVER their current hit dice. So with that please again explain where the race ability of the Illumian says it can not give you this benifit over your current hit dice.


This benefit cannot increase your caster level above your character level.

For all intent and purpose, Character Level = Hit Dice with no exception.

[DeTess]

Please tell me where it says it can not raise your caster level above your hit dice. Your right it doesn't, now I would like to direct you to the wild Mage, where they have a random ability that can and with the right buil give them a +1 to a +6 OVER their current hit dice. So with that please again explain where the race ability of the Illumian says it can not give you this benifit over your current hit dice.

Because wild mage is prestige class, not a race, and first reduces your caster level by 3, so on average you'll not gain any extra caster levels?

Also, I've already quoted the text that states your caster level from this ability is gated but your character level.

[Hunterx]

For all intent and purpose, Character Level = Hit Dice with no exception.

OK yes but please tell me where is says it can not raise it above your HD/Character level it says you get a +1 to your caster level to a maximum of your character level which if you are a caster at level 3 and you have this sigil you get a +3 making you a caster level 6. Unless you can show me where it does not do this it must do exactly as i have posted

[Hunterx]

Because wild mage is prestige class, not a race, and first reduces your caster level by 3, so on average you'll not gain any extra caster levels?

Also, I've already quoted the text that states your caster level from this ability is gated but your character level.


One feat Practice spellcaster fixes that problem

[Hunterx]

Because wild mage is prestige class, not a race, and first reduces your caster level by 3, so on average you'll not gain any extra caster levels?

Also, I've already quoted the text that states your caster level from this ability is gated but your character level.


And no you have quoted that it goes to you character level, it does not say that you have to be a multi class and it does not say that the spell is limited by your HD so unless you can show me this then the wording of the sigil stands

[DeTess]

And no you have quoted that it goes to you character level, it does not say that you have to be a multi class and it does not say that the spell is limited by your HD so unless you can show me this then the wording of the sigil stands

"+1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level)." Note that the sentence consists of two parts, one being the benefit, and the other being the restriction. The benefit is: "+1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities. this is not a bonus per caster level as you mistakenly stated, it's a simple +1 bonus. The restriction then refers to the total caster bonus: "up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level".

I really don't see what's so hard to understand about this, but whatever, I'll play along for now.

edit:

One feat Practice spellcaster fixes that problem

Actually, I'm pretty sure that by RAW practiced spellcaster won't benefit a wild mage much, because the practiced spellcaster bonus can't go above a characters HD. therefore it'll only help the character if the wild mage rolls below a 3 (by making it so that your CL is equal to your HD instead of less), and will provide no benefit of the wild mage rolls above a 3 on the d6.

[Hunterx]

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Ok here is the sigil word for word.
lets break this down

+1 BONUS to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities
In this first part it is giving you a bonus to your caster level for your spells and your spell like abilities. The word BONUS is the key.

Bonus definition: an amount of money added to wages on a seasonal basis, especially as a reward for good performance

example: an extra free throw awarded to a fouled player when the opposing team has exceeded the number of team fouls allowed during a period.

Now the second part: (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Up to the maximum value equal to the illumians character level
So the bonus that is given can not exceed the illumians character level. So if you are a level 2 character and you cast spells and you have this sigil it gives you a +2 since the bonus can not EXCEED your character level.

Now as the illumian goes up in levels and he gets to level 2 his sigil gets better it becomes a +2 not a +1 so this would mean that you get a 4 at level 2 and so on because it says you increase the bonus.

The feat that increases it again makes it +3 so at level 2 you would be casting spells as if you were a caster level 8

If the word bonus was not there and if it did not say to the maximum of your character level than yes you are completely correct but it has the word bonus and it says to a max of your character level. So the bonus is tied to your level and how much of a bonus you get.

[Hunterx]

"+1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level)." Note that the sentence consists of two parts, one being the benefit, and the other being the restriction. The benefit is: "+1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities. this is not a bonus per caster level as you mistakenly stated, it's a simple +1 bonus. The restriction then refers to the total caster bonus: "up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level".

I really don't see what's so hard to understand about this, but whatever, I'll play along for now.

edit:


Actually, I'm pretty sure that by RAW practiced spellcaster won't benefit a wild mage much, because the practiced spellcaster bonus can't go above a characters HD. therefore it'll only help the character if the wild mage rolls below a 3 (by making it so that your CL is equal to your HD instead of less), and will provide no benefit of the wild mage rolls above a 3 on the d6.

If it does not give you more than the +1 than why even bother with the second part. saying you get a +1 bonus to caster level involving spells and spell like abilities makes it a +1 bonus period full stop.
there would no need for the up to your character level added at all.

Nope Wild mage gets a -3 to caster level right off the top, so PS makes that equal and than the d6 roll.

[DeTess]

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Ok here is the sigil word for word.
lets break this down

+1 BONUS to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities
In this first part it is giving you a bonus to your caster level for your spells and your spell like abilities. The word BONUS is the key.

Bonus definition: an amount of money added to wages on a seasonal basis, especially as a reward for good performance

example: an extra free throw awarded to a fouled player when the opposing team has exceeded the number of team fouls allowed during a period.

Now the second part: (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Up to the maximum value equal to the illumians character level
So the bonus that is given can not exceed the illumians character level. So if you are a level 2 character and you cast spells and you have this sigil it gives you a +2 since the bonus can not EXCEED your character level.

Now as the illumian goes up in levels and he gets to level 2 his sigil gets better it becomes a +2 not a +1 so this would mean that you get a 4 at level 2 and so on because it says you increase the bonus.

The feat that increases it again makes it +3 so at level 2 you would be casting spells as if you were a caster level 8

If the word bonus was not there and if it did not say to the maximum of your character level than yes you are completely correct but it has the word bonus and it says to a max of your character level. So the bonus is tied to your level and how much of a bonus you get.

No! where does it say that it gives you a bigger bonus than the +1?

[Hunterx]

No! where does it say that it gives you a bigger bonus than the +1?


UP to your character level

Power Sigils (Su): In addition to the array of dimly glowing luminous sigils that orbits her head, a 1st-level illumian has a single brightly glowing power sigil that grants her certain bonuses (see below). A power sigil can be discerned from other sigils surrounding an illumian with a DC 10 Spot check, and identified with a DC 15 Knowledge (arcana) check. On attaining 2nd level in any class, an illumian gains a second different power sigil, and the bonus granted by each power sigil increases to +2. Depending on the combination of power sigils she chooses, an illumian gains one or more extra special abilities (see Illumian Words, below). The benefit of each power sigil is given below, along with the Common translation of each sigil's Illumian name.

hoose a number of spells with verbal components that you can cast equal to the number of power sigils you have. When you cast one of the chosen spells, the spell's effective level is increased by 1 (as if affected by the Heighten Spell feat, but with no change to the spell's casting time or spell slot). All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level. Whenever you gain the ability to cast a new level of spells, you can reassign the spells you've chosen to be enhanced by this feat. For example, a wizard who reaches 3rd level and gains the ability to cast 2nd-level spells may reassign the spells affected by this feat.

the feat is limited but you get the idea

[DeTess]

UP to your character level

Power Sigils (Su): In addition to the array of dimly glowing luminous sigils that orbits her head, a 1st-level illumian has a single brightly glowing power sigil that grants her certain bonuses (see below). A power sigil can be discerned from other sigils surrounding an illumian with a DC 10 Spot check, and identified with a DC 15 Knowledge (arcana) check. On attaining 2nd level in any class, an illumian gains a second different power sigil, and the bonus granted by each power sigil increases to +2. Depending on the combination of power sigils she chooses, an illumian gains one or more extra special abilities (see Illumian Words, below). The benefit of each power sigil is given below, along with the Common translation of each sigil's Illumian name.

And where does it say you'll get more than that +2? You're making rules where there are none, and trying to turn a restriction into a superpower.

[Hunterx]

And where does it say you'll get more than that +2? You're making rules where there are none, and trying to turn a restriction into a superpower.

ok you get a +2 at level 2, but because the sigil says you get a bonus of +1 per character level and the level 2 ability adds to this you now have +2. so your chaster level is Wizard 2 sigil 2 for caster level 4
Now at level 3 it would be wizard 3 sigil 4 but you can not get that because it exceeds your character level so you get wizard 3 sigil 3 for a caster level 6

I do not see how in the world you can not see this.

Truly I understand where you are coming from and i do see what you are saying but the wording is right there in front of you, use the words as RAW not RAI.

Bonus means on top of what you have, maximum is the most the bonus can be which is your char level. Because if you were a level 20 wizard and you had this sigil you would be casting spells as a level 60 wizard. but instead you are only casting them as a level 40

[DeTess]

ok you get a +2 at level 2, but because the sigil says you get a bonus of +1 per character level and the level 2 ability adds to this you now have +2. so your chaster level is Wizard 2 sigil 2 for caster level 4


Where does it say this? The sigil says you get a flat +1 bonus and alter the advanced version makes that a flat +2 bonus.

[Hunterx]

Where does it say this? The sigil says you get a flat +1 bonus and alter the advanced version makes that a flat +2 bonus.

Lets try this a different way

You are an Illumian wizard Level 1 you do you have the Krau sigil what level do you cast your spells at?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Lets try this a different way

You are an Illumian wizard Level 1 you do you have the Krau sigil what level do you cast your spells at?

Under a literal reading of the text, I'm inclined to say that you'd cast your spells at a caster level of 2.

But that's because the "(up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level)." is really vaguely written.

RAI, I think it's supposed to mean that you can't have a CL boost higher than your character level but RAW it's not as clear.

[HouseRules]

OK yes but please tell me where is says it can not raise it above your HD/Character level it says you get a +1 to your caster level to a maximum of your character level which if you are a caster at level 3 and you have this sigil you get a +3 making you a caster level 6. Unless you can show me where it does not do this it must do exactly as i have posted

Where does it say the sigil give +3?


+1 = +9

The whole thread is that you are having issues with understanding this line:

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).
You interpret it as
Krau ("magic"): +(character level) bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities.

[JNAProductions]

Hunter, you’re not a DM, are you?

[ColorBlindNinja]

In fairness, you could read the line "(up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level)" as a cap for the bonus that the Illumian's Krau ability can grant.

But it only grants a total of a +1, so...

[DeTess]

Lets try this a different way

You are an Illumian wizard Level 1 you do you have the Krau sigil what level do you cast your spells at?

With caster level 1. If you where a wizard 1/something else 1, you'd cast at caster level 2.

[HouseRules]

The whole thread is that you are having issues with understanding this line:
Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).
You interpret it as
Krau ("magic"): +(character level) bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities.


Example:

Illumian Race Wizard 3/Cleric 3 has Wizard 4 caster level and Cleric 4 caster level in our interpretation, but Wizard 9 caster level and Cleric 9 caster level in your interpretation.

with


Power Sigils (Su): In addition to the array of dimly glowing luminous sigils that orbits her head, a 1st-level illumian has a single brightly glowing power sigil that grants her certain bonuses (see below). A power sigil can be discerned from other sigils surrounding an illumian with a DC 10 Spot check, and identified with a DC 15 Knowledge (arcana) check. On attaining 2nd level in any class, an illumian gains a second different power sigil, and the bonus granted by each power sigil increases to +2....

That would only be Wizard 5 caster level and Cleric 5 caster level for the Wizard 3/Cleric 3 Illumian character.



Illumian Krau Sigil, Wizard 1 has Caster Level (1+1) limited to 1 equals 1.
Illumian Wizard 1/Cleric 1 has Wizard Caster Level (1+1) limited to 2 equals 2, and Cleric Caster Level (1+1) limited to 2 equals 2.
Illumian Power Sigil, Wizard 2/Cleric 1 has Wizard Caster Level (2+2) limited to 3 equals 2, and Cleric Caster Level (1+2) limited to 3 equals 3.
Illumian Wizard 2/Cleric 2 has Wizard Caster Level (2+2) limited to 4 equals 4, and Cleric Caster Level (2+2) limited to 4 equals 4.

Caster Level limited to Character Level is only in Practiced Spellcaster and a few other things. But they are specific, not general. There is no general rule that limits Caster Level with Character Level.

Illumian Wizard 1 has Caster Level 2, Krau Sigil +1 to all caster levels.
Illumian Wizard 2 has Caster Level 4, Power Sigil improved Krau Sigil to +2.

[Hunterx]

With caster level 1. If you where a wizard 1/something else 1, you'd cast at caster level 2.

WHERE IN THE IN ANY PART OF THE SIGIL DOES IT SAY YOU HAVE TO BE A MULTI CLASS


It says no such thing it does not even imply it, you are using the written words of PS and applying it to this. It is not the same thing period full stop so stop trying to tie them together.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wouldn't this ability function like an Orange Ioun Stone? That's the most straightforward reading of the text.

[Hunterx]

Example:

Illumian Race Wizard 3/Cleric 3 has Wizard 4 caster level and Cleric 4 caster level in our interpretation, but Wizard 9 caster level and Cleric 9 caster level in your interpretation.

with


That would only be Wizard 5 caster level and Cleric 5 caster level for the Wizard 3/Cleric 3 Illumian character.



Illumian Krau Sigil, Wizard 1 has Caster Level (1+1) limited to 1 equals 1.
Illumian Wizard 1/Cleric 1 has Wizard Caster Level (1+1) limited to 2 equals 2, and Cleric Caster Level (1+1) limited to 2 equals 2.
Illumian Power Sigil, Wizard 2/Cleric 1 has Wizard Caster Level (2+2) limited to 3 equals 2, and Cleric Caster Level (1+2) limited to 3 equals 3.
Illumian Wizard 2/Cleric 2 has Wizard Caster Level (2+2) limited to 4 equals 4, and Cleric Caster Level (2+2) limited to 4 equals 4.

Caster Level limited to Character Level is only in Practiced Spellcaster and a few other things. But they are specific, not general. There is no general rule that limits Caster Level with Character Level.

Illumian Wizard 1 has Caster Level 2, Krau Sigil +1 to all caster levels.
Illumian Wizard 2 has Caster Level 4, Power Sigil improved Krau Sigil to +2.

This bottom part is the first thing that you have said correct. wizard 2 with sigil krau improved has caster level 4 so now lets do this illumian wizard 3 with sigil krau improved has a caster level of ?

[JNAProductions]

Is there any DM that would use this ruling?

Is there any player that would want this ruling?

Even if the RAW was dysfunctional (it isn’t) this ruling is so far removed from what’s sensible and balanced that no one would ever use it.

So what’s the point?

[Hunterx]

Wouldn't this ability function like an Orange Ioun Stone? That's the most straightforward reading of the text.


No not at all, the max bonus you can get is the character level. You do not need to be multi class to get the bonus. That is how the ability is written a +1 to spells and spell like abilities to a max of your character level.

So wizard 1 casts at level 2 as with this sigil
wizard 2 casts at level 4 with this sigil and the improved version
wizard 3 casts at level 6
wizard 4 8 and so on.
That is because the highest bonus you can get is your character level. and since the improved version of this gives you a +2 that means that you basically double your caster level.

If it said mutli classing at all you would be 100% correct but there is nothing and i mean nothing that says that or even implies that it dopes. People are trying to make it like PS and it is not PS.

[Hunterx]

Is there any DM that would use this ruling?

Is there any player that would want this ruling?

Even if the RAW was dysfunctional (it isn’t) this ruling is so far removed from what’s sensible and balanced that no one would ever use it.

So what’s the point?

how is this even that bad please explain, give example of how this could be so bad, and i will gladly point you toward the barbarian FB power attack build

It is not broken at all, all you do is cast your spells at a high effective level. most damage spells are capped any ways so again i ask how is this so bad ?

[HouseRules]

This bottom part is the first thing that you have said correct. wizard 2 with sigil krau improved has caster level 4 so now lets do this illumian wizard 3 with sigil krau improved has a caster level of ?

Illumian Wizard 3 Caster Level (3+2) = 5.
Power Sigil increases Krau Sigil to +2.

Improved Sigil Krau (Feat) increase by 1 more point, so the max is +3.

Illumian Wizard 3 Caster Level (3+3) = 6, Krau Sigil (+1), Power Sigil (swap the +1 to +2), Improve Sigil Krau (increase by another +1).
Illumian Wizard 4 Caster Level (4+3) = 7.

There are no further increase to Krau Sigil, so at most it is +3 (just like major bloodline?)

[HouseRules]

Is there any DM that would use this ruling?

Is there any player that would want this ruling?

Even if the RAW was dysfunctional (it isn’t) this ruling is so far removed from what’s sensible and balanced that no one would ever use it.

So what’s the point?

Having more caster level than your character level is chessy-like but not to the level game breaking. As long as the character have level appropriate spells (access and known), then there is no problem.

[ColorBlindNinja]

No not at all, the max bonus you can get is the character level.

Which would imply that if I was level 5, the maximum bonus I could have from this racial trait is +5.

Moot, since it's +1, but it would essentially be a free +1 to caster level. Just like an Orange Ioun Stone.

[Hunterx]

Illumian Wizard 3 Caster Level (3+2) = 5.
Power Sigil increases Krau Sigil to +2, but nothing else increase it further, unless you could find something.

Improved Sigil Krau (Feat) increase by 1 more point, so the max is +3.

Illumian Wizard 3 Caster Level (3+3) = 6, Krau Sigil (+1), Power Sigil (swap the +1 to +2), Improve Sigil Krau (increase by another +1).
Illumian Wizard 4 Caster Level (4+3) = 7.

that is not a maximum to the character level now is it. it however is still very good. Now if you are a spon caster or a warlock this should effect your number of spells and your eldrich blast and maybe, and this is a out there maybe your invocations.

Maybe the to a maximum of your character level was a over sight on the writer just maybe but still a +3 levels is not bad at all. and would make some other prc classes more appealing. Like the GSA you are now only 2 cl back not 5 and there are ways to get that many levels back.

[HouseRules]

that is not a maximum to the character level now is it. it however is still very good. Now if you are a spon caster or a warlock this should effect your number of spells and your eldrich blast and maybe, and this is a out there maybe your invocations.

Maybe the to a maximum of your character level was a over sight on the writer just maybe but still a +3 levels is not bad at all. and would make some other prc classes more appealing. Like the GSA you are now only 2 cl back not 5 and there are ways to get that many levels back.

You still need to get the Power Sigil before the Improve Sigil Krau Feat, otherwise, you are swapping +2 for +2, not +1 for +2 and get another +1 on top.

[Hunterx]

Which would imply that if I was level 5, the maximum bonus I could have from this racial trait is +5.

Moot, since it's +1, but it would essentially be a free +1 to caster level. Just like an Orange Ioun Stone.

No I think houserule has it right on target it looks good and it is fair, a max of plus three even though i do think it is higher still, i think it was an over sight of the writer. which means at level 20 you would be casting your spells as a level 23 caster. That is not that bad until you get your epic level feats.

A major blood line is a good way to go with it and it is a strong ability.

So now that that is solved, I have a build idea and yes it is using the GSA which is a class i have wanted to play, but that all depends on how this would effect the warlocks eldrich blast and invocations.

[ColorBlindNinja]

No I think houserule has it right on target it looks good and it is fair, a max of plus three even though i do think it is higher still, i think it was an over sight of the writer. which means at level 20 you would be casting your spells as a level 23 caster. That is not that bad until you get your epic level feats.

A major blood line is a good way to go with it and it is a strong ability.

So now that that is solved, I have a build idea and yes it is using the GSA which is a class i have wanted to play, but that all depends on how this would effect the warlocks eldrich blast and invocations.

:smallconfused:

Where are you getting the +3 from?

[Hunterx]

You still need to get the Power Sigil before the Improve Sigil Krau Feat, otherwise, you are swapping +2 for +2, not +1 for +2 and get another +1 on top.

No no I understand that I think your right on target with the blood line thing

[Hunterx]

:smallconfused:

Where are you getting the +3 from?


at level 2 it gives you a plus one then there is a feat improved sigil Krau which gives you another +1

Choose a number of spells with verbal components that you can cast equal to the number of power sigils you have. When you cast one of the chosen spells, the spell's effective level is increased by 1 (as if affected by the Heighten Spell feat, but with no change to the spell's casting time or spell slot). All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level. Whenever you gain the ability to cast a new level of spells, you can reassign the spells you've chosen to be enhanced by this feat. For example, a wizard who reaches 3rd level and gains the ability to cast 2nd-level spells may reassign the spells affected by this feat.

it however is limited to just 2 spells

[ColorBlindNinja]

at level 2 it gives you a plus one then there is a feat improved sigil Krau which gives you another +1

The feat you're describing heightens the spells you pick. It doesn't boost the caster level.

[Hunterx]

The feat you're describing heightens the spells you pick. It doesn't boost the caster level.

no it is using heighten spell as an example

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.

[HouseRules]

The feat you're describing heightens the spells you pick. It doesn't boost the caster level.

You're right. Improved Sigil Krau only increase spell level (without needing a higher spell slot).

So it is
+2 caster level
+1 spell level (to 2 known spells per Improved Sigil Krau)

[Hunterx]

You're right. Improved Sigil Krau only increase spell level (without needing a higher spell slot).

So it is
+2 caster level
+1 spell level (to 2 known spells per Improved Sigil Krau)

no again it is using heighten spell as an example

[ColorBlindNinja]

You're right. Improved Sigil Krau only increase spell level (without needing a higher spell slot).

So it is
+2 caster level
+1 spell level (to 2 known spells per Improved Sigil Krau)

Where are you getting the +2 to caster level from? By my reading of the Illumian's Krau ability, you're only getting a +1.

EDIT:


no again it is using heighten spell as an example

No, no it isn't. That is the entire benefit of the feat.

[Hunterx]

Where are you getting the +2 to caster level from? By my reading of the Illumian's Krau ability, you're only getting a +1.

EDIT:



No, no it isn't. That is the entire benefit of the feat.

read the race description not just the sigil that will help you out

[Hunterx]

Where are you getting the +2 to caster level from? By my reading of the Illumian's Krau ability, you're only getting a +1.

EDIT:



No, no it isn't. That is the entire benefit of the feat.


no it says AS height spell which means it works like heighten spell not that it is heighten spell


All social disabled (faster)
(Rank this page)

Inaccurate?
Improved Sigil (Krau)
( Races of Destiny, p. 153)

[Racial]

You tap into your krau power sigil to augment the energy of your magical utterances.
Prerequisite

Illumian, krau power sigil,
Benefit

Choose a number of spells with verbal components that you can cast equal to the number of power sigils you have. When you cast one of the chosen spells, the spell's effective level is increased by 1 (as if affected by the Heighten Spell feat, but with no change to the spell's casting time or spell slot). All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level. Whenever you gain the ability to cast a new level of spells, you can reassign the spells you've chosen to be enhanced by this feat. For example, a wizard who reaches 3rd level and gains the ability to cast 2nd-level spells may reassign the spells affected by this feat.

No were in there does it say it is effected by heighten spell it says as if it was.

So a Illumian wizard 3 with improved sigil Krau and heighten spell feat, would cast mage armour as a level 7 wizard and it would take up only a second level spell slot

[ColorBlindNinja]

read the race description not just the sigil that will help you out

I have read the race description. The feat doesn't even remotely do what you claim it does.


no it says AS height spell which means it works like heighten spell not that it is heighten spell


SNIP

Moot, it doesn't boost your caster level at all.

[HouseRules]

Where are you getting the +2 to caster level from? By my reading of the Illumian's Krau ability, you're only getting a +1.

EDIT:



No, no it isn't. That is the entire benefit of the feat.

Wait, Sigil Krau is not a Power Sigil then there's only +1.

But then, Improved Sigil Krau requires "krau power sigil", so it is a power sigil.

Power Sigil (Su) ... attained 2nd class level, .... increase to +2...

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wait, Sigil Krau is not a Power Sigil then there's only +1.

But then, Improved Sigil Krau requires "krau power sigil", so it is a power sigil.

Power Sigil (Su) ... attained 2nd class level, .... increase to +2...

Okay, I missed that part. So at level 2 Krau gives you a +2 to caster level.

Thank you for clarifying.

[HouseRules]

Let's say an Illumian Character Knows Cure Light Wounds and assigned it as one of the spells under Improved Sigil Krau.

Then, that character could cast Cure Light Wounds as a 2nd level spell in a 1st level spell slot.

The spells under Improved Sigil Krau are all re-assignable every leveling up.

[Hunterx]

Ok here we go

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Power Sigils (Su): In addition to the array of dimly glowing luminous sigils that orbits her head, a 1st-level illumian has a single brightly glowing power sigil that grants her certain bonuses (see below). A power sigil can be discerned from other sigils surrounding an illumian with a DC 10 Spot check, and identified with a DC 15 Knowledge (arcana) check. On attaining 2nd level in any class, an illumian gains a second different power sigil, and the bonus granted by each power sigil increases to +2. Depending on the combination of power sigils she chooses, an illumian gains one or more extra special abilities (see Illumian Words, below). The benefit of each power sigil is given below, along with the Common translation of each sigil's Illumian name.

This is not a feat this is a race thing

The feat does just add the heighten effect to 2 spells, but does not effect the level. I missed the other part where it says that. so 2 spells are treated at +3 +2 caster level and +1 from the heighten effect of the feat. which translates to a +3 for those 2 spells.

But then you can add heighten spell to them to make them a +4 effectivly

[HouseRules]

The feat does just add the heighten effect to 2 spells, but does not effect the level. I missed the other part where it says that. so 2 spells are treated at +3 +2 caster level and +1 from the heighten effect of the feat. which translates to a +3 for those 2 spells.

But then you can add heighten spell to them to make them a +4 effectivly

No, you're confusing Spell Level and Caster Level, which I made when I skim/glace at the stuff without reading.

Change in Spell Level does not affect Caster Level, but it does impact Minimum Caster Level.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ok here we go

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Power Sigils (Su): In addition to the array of dimly glowing luminous sigils that orbits her head, a 1st-level illumian has a single brightly glowing power sigil that grants her certain bonuses (see below). A power sigil can be discerned from other sigils surrounding an illumian with a DC 10 Spot check, and identified with a DC 15 Knowledge (arcana) check. On attaining 2nd level in any class, an illumian gains a second different power sigil, and the bonus granted by each power sigil increases to +2. Depending on the combination of power sigils she chooses, an illumian gains one or more extra special abilities (see Illumian Words, below). The benefit of each power sigil is given below, along with the Common translation of each sigil's Illumian name.

This is not a feat this is a race thing

The feat does just add the heighten effect to 2 spells, but does not effect the level. I missed the other part where it says that. so 2 spells are treated at +3 +2 caster level and +1 from the heighten effect of the feat. which translates to a +3 for those 2 spells.

But then you can add heighten spell to them to make them a +4 effectivly


Heighten spell doesn't affect caster level at all:



Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

[Hunterx]

Here is my build Idea for this
Illumian Duskblade 5 GSA 5
Power sigils: Aesh Krau
Power word Aeshkrau
Abilities: Srt 22 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 15 Wis 10 Char 10
His Str and Dex are changed for taking the levels in GSA
The bonus give me 2 2 1 for 9 8 3
Dusk blade spells 0: 6 1: 7 2: 6 3: 2
feats:
Level 1 Power attack
Level 3 Arcane strike
Level 6 x
Level 9 x

[HouseRules]

Caster Level increase from Illumian does not give you increase in spell slots or known.

Spell Slots and Known are Duskblade (5) + Green Star Adept (+2, at level 2 and 4) for equivalent Duskblade (7).
0:6
1:6 + int bonus spell slots
2:5 + int bonus spell slots

Your +2 Caster Level does not impact the spell slots, so there are no level 3 spell slots.

[Hunterx]

Caster Level increase from Illumian does not give you increase in spell slots or known.

Spell Slots and Known are Duskblade (5) + Green Star Adept (+2, at level 2 and 4) for equivalent Duskblade (7).
0:6
1:6 + int bonus spell slots
2:5 + int bonus spell slots

Your +2 Caster Level does not impact the spell slots, so there are no level 3 spell slots.

as a spon caster does it not do the same thing since your caster level is the number of spells you know

[HouseRules]

Green Star Adept, while [spell]caster level increase every level Improved Caster Level (Ex), Spells per Day/Spell Known only increase on even levels (the column saying +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class).



Spells per Day/Spells Known: At every even-numbered level, a Green Star adept gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as the bonus feat sometimes gained by a wizard). If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.




Improved Caster Level (Ex): A Green Star adept adds his class level to his caster level in another arcane spellcasting class to determine his effective spellcaster level. If the character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, the player must decide to which class to add each adept level for this purpose. For example, a 5th-level wizard/4th-level Green Star adept's caster level would be 9th, due to this ability, but he would only have access to 4th-level spells (5th-level wizard plus two arcane spellcasting class levels from being a 4th-level Green Star adept).


So you have Duskblade 7 for spell slots and spell known, but cast at Duskblade Caster Level 12.


Pathfinder has Prestigious Spellcaster as a feat tax to fill those odd level gaps.

[Psychoalpha]

Pretty sure at this point that HunterX is just trolling everyone in the thread.

There's just... no way anybody can be this determined to be wrong and be serious about it. I hope.

[Hunterx]

Pretty sure at this point that HunterX is just trolling everyone in the thread.

There's just... no way anybody can be this determined to be wrong and be serious about it. I hope.

Dude Im not wrong read the wording of the ability and look at it again and again if you have to.

I am sorry if your mind is not able to grasp the concept that it right in front of you. There is 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000 that says you have to multi class for this to work. There is a bonus and there is a limit so unless you are trolling trying to get things going or you are just a plain fool go find a dark corner while the adults talk about things.

[Allanimal]

Here is my build Idea for this
Illumian Duskblade 5 GSA 5
Power sigils: Aesh Krau
Power word Aeshkrau
Abilities: Srt 22 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 15 Wis 10 Char 10
His Str and Dex are changed for taking the levels in GSA
The bonus give me 2 2 1 for 9 8 3
Dusk blade spells 0: 6 1: 7 2: 6 3: 2
feats:
Level 1 Power attack
Level 3 Arcane strike
Level 6 x
Level 9 x

I don’t know why I am jumping in this dumpster fire, but I have to mention a problem with your build.
You can’t take arcane strike at level 3. Check the pre-reqs.... you are missing both of them...

[HouseRules]

Especially, OP cannot distinguish between Caster Level and Class Level.

[Psychoalpha]

Dude Im not wrong read the wording of the ability and look at it again and again if you have to.

I am sorry if your mind is not able to grasp the concept that it right in front of you. There is 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000 that says you have to multi class for this to work. There is a bonus and there is a limit so unless you are trolling trying to get things going or you are just a plain fool go find a dark corner while the adults talk about things.

So what you're saying is that for fifteen years, no one anywhere has been able to see what was right in front of them, except for you. And that this three page thread of literally not a single person saying you might even have a point if you squint sideways, is just full of people who are unable to grasp a concept that is right in front of them. That only you, in your infinite wisdom, have been able to crack a fifteen year old code in a racial ability people have been over with a fine toothed comb.

You're either wrong, and so ignorant of that wrongness that you can't understand what every single person here has been trying to tell you, and won't accept it when you go post the same idea on any other D&D board and everyone there tells you the same... or you're just trolling everyone by pretending to be this determined about something you know is wrong.

There is no version of this where you're correct in your reading of this ability.

[Hunterx]

I don’t know why I am jumping in this dumpster fire, but I have to mention a problem with your build.
You can’t take arcane strike at level 3. Check the pre-reqs.... you are missing both of them...

Yeah i forgot about that it is a higher level feat

[Hunterx]

So what you're saying is that for fifteen years, no one anywhere has been able to see what was right in front of them, except for you. And that this three page thread of literally not a single person saying you might even have a point if you squint sideways, is just full of people who are unable to grasp a concept that is right in front of them. That only you, in your infinite wisdom, have been able to crack a fifteen year old code in a racial ability people have been over with a fine toothed comb.

You're either wrong, and so ignorant of that wrongness that you can't understand what every single person here has been trying to tell you, and won't accept it when you go post the same idea on any other D&D board and everyone there tells you the same... or you're just trolling everyone by pretending to be this determined about something you know is wrong.

There is no version of this where you're correct in your reading of this ability.

Ok explain to me where on earth or any other place for that matter it says the racial ability works only with multiclass. If you can do that Ill give you that point.

Than explain to me what the word bonus means which i did for you already but in case you have forgotten it is an addition to the current amount. But if you can prove that the word bonus dose not mean an addition to than i will give you that point.

To a max, which means to a limit of the characters current level, so if you are level 10 that is the bonus. if you are level 1 that is the bonus. Now at level 2 that bonus becomes 2. So i have said a few times that i think they made an error with the character level part of the ability but i guess that has slipped by you.

So i have excepted that it is a +2 to the caster level and if you take the feat it is a +1 to 2 spells giving you a max at level 2 of a caster level of 5 for 2 spells and 4 for the rest. The caste level from the feat is effective by heighten spell effect only and therefor those 2 spells are treated as three levels higher for effects duration and damage.

But since you seem to be clueless to what i have said and you seem to think you are so much smarter than all than everyone else let me show you some things.

First off you are very much capable of casting spells at a higher caster level than your current level. First off there is the wild mage ability which with the right build you can get a +6 to your caster level at all times. Of course it gives you a -3 to caster level which in turn only gives you a +3 but with this races ability you can get a perma +5 to your caster level on all spells and +6 to 2 spells of you choosing. Than you can add in heighten spell to make it a +7, because the effect of the feat says you treat the 2 spells as if they had been heightened a so this makes them +1 level with the metamagic feat.

that means you can get a +7 and are casting spells as if you are a level 13 caster at level 6. just for 2 spells of course but all the rest of your spells are 5 caster levels higher and some are even 6.

So please do me a fav sit down before you fall down and pull your bottom lip up over your head and swallow.

Because you know nothing at all and you think that this racial ability works like PS which it does not at all.

[Psychoalpha]

But since you seem to be clueless to what i have said and you seem to think you are so much smarter than all than everyone else let me show you some things.

Once again: Literally no one agrees with your misreading of the racial ability. Not a single person has done anything but attempt to correct your fundamental misunderstanding of what you're talking about, except the people who've given up on that and just pointed out other mistakes instead. I am 100% positive that it would be the case anywhere else you brought it up, for the simple reason that you are wrong.

Which would mean that you're the one who thinks they're smarter than everyone else, but all evidence suggests you're entirely wrong about that too.

[Mystic Muse]

Regardless of RAW versus RAI, the fact remains that you have to convince a DM to allow your reading before you can use it.

I see your argument, but as a DM would almost certainly say "we're running it the way I think it was intended."

[Hunterx]

Once again: Literally no one agrees with your misreading of the racial ability. Not a single person has done anything but attempt to correct your fundamental misunderstanding of what you're talking about, except the people who've given up on that and just pointed out other mistakes instead. I am 100% positive that it would be the case anywhere else you brought it up, for the simple reason that you are wrong.

Which would mean that you're the one who thinks they're smarter than everyone else, but all evidence suggests you're entirely wrong about that too.

again i said to point out where i am wrong and you can not do it can you because the wording is true as it is. So until you can point out exactly where it says it is the way you say it is than your argument is mute.

[Hunterx]

Regardless of RAW versus RAI, the fact remains that you have to convince a DM to allow your reading before you can use it.

I see your argument, but as a DM would almost certainly say "we're running it the way I think it was intended."



Again i said that i think that the character level was over looked and said that it is a maximum of +2 all spells +3 for 2 spells. But the fool above can not understand that.

That being said he can not prove that my point of view is wrong at all. He can just say it is RAI which is someones interp and not the way it is written.

I do not even see how ppl can say that it is intended to be used like PS there is nothing and i mean nothing that even suggests that. So i think ppl are looking at it going this makes sense because this feat makes sense and it looks like the feat. Well it is not and i repeat it is not the feat period full stop.

Benefit

Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. (clearly states can not take increase your caster level beyond your HD)

However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus. For example, a human 5th-level cleric/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his cleric caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 HD). (here it gives you an idea how this would work)

If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his cleric caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 HD). A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect. ( and again)

This does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.(allows you to beat SR and duration )

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (says nothing about a cross class at all) (gives you a value of the bonus) so if it gives you a +1 and only a +1 the maximum of the bonus of your character level is just pointless now. So if the maximum of the bonus is your character level it can only mean one thing you get the +1 per character level because if it did not do this you can not have a max of your character level now can you.

(up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level). (gives a maximum value of the bonus as the characters level)

[ExLibrisMortis]

So i have excepted that it is a +2 to the caster level and if you take the feat it is a +1 to 2 spells giving you a max at level 2 of a caster level of 5 for 2 spells and 4 for the rest. The caste level from the feat is effective by heighten spell effect only and therefor those 2 spells are treated as three levels higher for effects duration and damage.
Hang on, what is it that you're trying to do here?

You're level 2, having two sigils including Krau, granting you a +2 bonus on caster level. You're reading the clause "up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level" to apply to the bonus, instead of the caster level after applying the bonus. The feat you're talking about is--I think--Improved Krau Sigil, which lets you Heighten two first-level spells by one level. So far, I'm with you.

Where you lose me is when you say you have a caster level of 5 for those spells Heightened by IKS. Those spells are still cast at CL 4, they're just second-level spells for the purpose of effects that depend on spell level (counterspelling, for example). Heighten Spell doesn't increase caster level, it increases spell level, which is a different thing.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Heighten Spell doesn't increase caster level, it increases spell level, which is a different thing.

I already tried to explain that to him. He claimed that heighten spell was "just an example". :smallsigh:

[Hunterx]

Hang on, what is it that you're trying to do here?

You're level 2, having two sigils including Krau, granting you a +2 bonus on caster level. You're reading the clause "up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level" to apply to the bonus, instead of the caster level after applying the bonus. The feat you're talking about is--I think--Improved Krau Sigil, which lets you Heighten two first-level spells by one level. So far, I'm with you.

Where you lose me is when you say you have a caster level of 5 for those spells Heightened by IKS. Those spells are still cast at CL 4, they're just second-level spells for the purpose of effects that depend on spell level (counterspelling, for example). Heighten Spell doesn't increase caster level, it increases spell level, which is a different thing.

No read the feat again

Benefit

Choose a number of spells with verbal components that you can cast equal to the number of power sigils you have. When you cast one of the chosen spells, the spell's effective level is increased by 1 (as if affected by the Heighten Spell feat, but with no change to the spell's casting time or spell slot). All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level. Whenever you gain the ability to cast a new level of spells, you can reassign the spells you've chosen to be enhanced by this feat. For example, a wizard who reaches 3rd level and gains the ability to cast 2nd-level spells may reassign the spells affected by this feat.

A wizard level 5 can cast level 3 spells, with Krau sigil all spells are cast as if they are caster level 7 spells that is ALL spells. With IKS you pick 2 spells there is nothing that says that they have to be level 1 spells they can be any spells. Those spells that are effected by IKS are cast as if they are level 8 spells. that is they way this works.

Now if you read Krau the sigil, there is nothing and i mean nothing that says it does not apply to a pure caster, there is nothing that says that you have to be a multi class char to get the bonus from this.

Now
Level 5 Illumian Krau wizard with IKS feat and the heighten spell feat, can cast all their spells as if they are caster level 7, or 8 using heighten spell to improve it and costing you a higher level spell. The 2 spells that are effected by IKS can be cast as a 8th level and if you effect them with the heighten feat they are cast as if they are 9th caster level.

Now the bonus form Krau says it has a maximum bonus of the Illumiums character level. So if you are a pure caster with the Krau sigil you should be getting a max bonus of the character level to the caster level.

So a wizard 5 with Krau should be getting a +5 caster level but since the bonus us doubled at level 2 you get a +2 that means you get 10 but you can not get that till you get to level 10 but that does not make sense and that is why i said that the character level was an over look.

[Hunterx]

Hang on, what is it that you're trying to do here?

You're level 2, having two sigils including Krau, granting you a +2 bonus on caster level. You're reading the clause "up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level" to apply to the bonus, instead of the caster level after applying the bonus. The feat you're talking about is--I think--Improved Krau Sigil, which lets you Heighten two first-level spells by one level. So far, I'm with you.

Where you lose me is when you say you have a caster level of 5 for those spells Heightened by IKS. Those spells are still cast at CL 4, they're just second-level spells for the purpose of effects that depend on spell level (counterspelling, for example). Heighten Spell doesn't increase caster level, it increases spell level, which is a different thing.


explain how you get a maximum of the character level to the bonus if all your adding is +2.

It is written as a bonus +1 to caster level to a maximum of the character level. when casting spells and spell like abilities.

No matter what way you rewrite this it is the same thing. a bonus which is an addition to the caster level, to a maximum of your character level starting at +1 going to +2 at level 2, so how do you get to a maximum of your character level if all you get is +2 ?

[ColorBlindNinja]

explain how you get a maximum of the character level to the bonus if all your adding is +2.

It is written as a bonus +1 to caster level to a maximum of the character level. when casting spells and spell like abilities.

No matter what way you rewrite this it is the same thing. a bonus which is an addition to the caster level, to a maximum of your character level starting at +1 going to +2 at level 2, so how do you get to a maximum of your character level if all you get is +2 ?

The maximum bonus you can have from the racial trait is up to your character level.

The trait itself only gives you +2, but it could give you a bonus as high as your character level if you could raise it somehow.

[Hunterx]

The maximum bonus you can have from the racial trait is up to your character level.

The trait itself only gives you +2, but it could give you a bonus as high as your character level if you could raise it somehow.

Explain how you can get it higher than +2 ( than aside from levels as a char) Since there is no way to increase the bonus than a +2 is all you get than why on earth add the up to your character level.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Explain how you can get it higher than +2 ( than aside from levels as a char)

As far as I know you can't.

But if you could, you could have a bonus equal to your character level.

[Hunterx]

As far as I know you can't.

But if you could, you could have a bonus equal to your character level.

It does not say it could it says to a max of not it could be a max of now does it

[ColorBlindNinja]

It does not say it could it says to a max of not it could be a max of now does it

I'm sorry, but you could reword that sentence? I don't understand what you're trying to say. :smallfrown:

[Deophaun]

I will say that I can see how, after a night of hard drinking while taking pain medication, someone could read it that way. However, the question must then be asked, if that was the intent, why didn't they just use the standard "per character level" language instead of wording it such a way that people not hallucinating spiders crawling out of their friends' eye would interpret as just capping at +1?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I will say that I can see how, after a night of hard drinking while taking pain medication, someone could read it that way. However, the question must then be asked, if that was the intent, why didn't they just use the standard "per character level" language instead of wording it such a way that people not hallucinating spiders crawling out of their friends' eye would interpret as just capping at +1?

You just asked why WotC can't write a clear description. I should think that the answer is obvious by now. :smallwink:

[Hunterx]

I'm sorry, but you could reword that sentence? I don't understand what you're trying to say. :smallfrown:

The racial ability does not say it could grant you this, it says that it is a +1 caster level to a max of your character level.

No where in there does it say the word could. it says exactly


Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Where do you see the word could. I see +1 caster level for spells and spell like abilities, up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level.

Again no place in there is there a could so with that explain how you can maximize this ability if there is no way to improve the bonus.

It would make it pointless to take truly. a +2 is nothing it is truly a joke and does not make you that much more powerful at all.

Considering a Barbarian level 6 or 7 can go into frenzy berzerker and be doing tons of damage at the same level.

So the only was to read this ability is like this.
Level 1 Krau sigil: gain a +1 caster level
Level 2 increase the bonus +2 caster level

since you are level 2 and the bonus is +2 at level 3 it would be a +3 level 4 +4 and so on and so on.

which means at level 5 you would be casting spells as caster level 10 with IKS 2 spells would be cast as caster level 11 ( or 10 +heighten spell effect). If you add heighten spell that makes some of them caster level 12 if they are the ones that are effected by IKS.

[Hunterx]

I will say that I can see how, after a night of hard drinking while taking pain medication, someone could read it that way. However, the question must then be asked, if that was the intent, why didn't they just use the standard "per character level" language instead of wording it such a way that people not hallucinating spiders crawling out of their friends' eye would interpret as just capping at +1?

it is not that bad for it to be +1 per character level you are not going to be OP at all not any more than casters already are.

[Deophaun]

it is not that bad for it to be +1 per character level
You keep saying that, so I will ask: are they a specific species of spider, or are they all different? The later is more indicative of an opioid.

[Hunterx]

{Scrubbed}

[JNAProductions]

Reminder about the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), for everyone.

Also, just letting you know, "This is already broken, so who cares if it gets broken further?" is not a compelling argument for why something should be allowed or read a certain way.

[Deophaun]

{Scrubbed}

[Hunterx]

Reminder about the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), for everyone.

Also, just letting you know, "This is already broken, so who cares if it gets broken further?" is not a compelling argument for why something should be allowed or read a certain way.

How is this broken even in the slightest.

[JNAProductions]

Should a Wizard be able to one-shot a Barbarian with a good Con score of equal level?

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

ok you get a +2 at level 2, but because the sigil says you get a bonus of +1 per character level and the level 2 ability adds to this you now have +2.

TLDR, anything after this post.

Hunterx this is your problem. The text you quoted in the OP literally says +1 TO caster level and you are reading +1 PER caster level. I kind of understand how the clause that follows could be confusing, but I agree with everyone else that the intent was that your caster level can't exceed your character level



Edit: Read the rest of the thread, LMAO

[Hunterx]

Should a Wizard be able to one-shot a Barbarian with a good Con score of equal level?

Should a barbarian be able to one shot a wizard with a good con score it goes the same way. Plus tell me how a wizard one shots a barbarian.

[AvatarVecna]

"Hey I just need a quick clarification on how legit this RAW reading is."


"It's not legit."


"Okay but see that's not the answer I was looking for, so I'm gonna argue with you and insist on my reading being RAW, RAI, and balanced."

You could maybe convince yourself that this is RAW, if you squint at it and imagine really hard that you were dropped on the head as a child, but you will never convince anybody that it's RAI - nor, for that matter, balanced. But anybody looking at a flat bonus and thinking "that's a variable bonus" is wrong. There is no text in the ability indicating the size of the bonus ever changes from +1. It doesn't say "+1 CL per character level" or "+1 CL per base CL". It just says "+1 (max character level)". Since the bonus has no text indicating it is a bonus that varies in size, the cap is therefore only about how this bonus can affect your total caster level.

But you knew that. Plenty of people have already told you as much. You didn't come here to get a "quick clarification", you came here hoping you could find somebody you could point to and say "see? they think it's reasonable too, it's not just me, so you have to let me do this, mr DM".

[JNAProductions]

Should a barbarian be able to one shot a wizard with a good con score it goes the same way. Plus tell me how a wizard one shots a barbarian.

Disintegrate. Level 6 spell, available at CL 11. That's 22d6 (average 77) damage, which, against a level 11 Barbarian with 18 Con, fails to kill most of the time since they have 132 HP. In fact, it literally has to roll MAX DAMAGE to kill them.

Now, at CL 22, it does 40d6 damage. That gives you a greater than 75% chance of one-shotting a Barbarian.

The Barbarian CAN be an ubercharger or something and have enough damage to kill a Wizard in one go... But the Wizard can easily have Abrupt Jaunt and just dodge it.

[RoboEmperor]

+1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Look at the first part
"+1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities "

I get +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities.

"(up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level)"

Ok so the maximum value of my caster level is equal to the illumian's character level.

How does this turn into +1 bonus to caster level for every hd I have? Is there the word "Per" I missed somewhere?


It is not broken at all, all you do is cast your spells at a high effective level. most damage spells are capped any ways so again i ask how is this so bad ?

I get a 20hd zombie at level 5 with animate dead. Is one example.
A fireball that does 10d6 instead of 5d6 at level 5 is another
"Oh I'll get that in 5 levels so why is it broken I get this 5 levels earlier?" >.>

In any case you have your answer. It is a resounding unanimous no. Doesn't matter how much you deny it, the answer is no.

[AvatarVecna]

Even if everybody agreed with you that "(to a maximum of your character level)" is a reference to the bonus rather than to your total caster level, there is nothing in the ability indicating that the bonus ever grows. It's just +1 CL (to a maximum of your character level), with no text indicating that +1 ever gets bigger, or that it's +1 per class level or caster level or character level.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Even if everybody agreed with you that "(to a maximum of your character level)" is a reference to the bonus rather than to your total caster level, there is nothing in the ability indicating that the bonus ever grows. It's just +1 CL (to a maximum of your character level), with no text indicating that +1 ever gets bigger, or that it's +1 per class level or caster level or character level.

Well, there is a section that says the bonus grows to +2 at level 2. But that's it.

[Deophaun]

Disintegrate. Level 6 spell, available at CL 11.
My go-to would be holy word. When you get it at level 13, you just flat out kill any non-good creature of equal HD. It just gets worse from there.

[HouseRules]

Effective Character Level (ECL) = Hit Dice (including Class Levels) + Level Adjustment

Level Adjustment (LA) = Sum of [Racial or not] Class Levels or Template Levels that do not give hit dice.
The (or not) is inclusive of Bloodline Class Level (and is an interpretation).
The Racial Class Levels are for every Monster Race that has Level Adjustments.
Obviously Templates gives Level Adjustments, so I have Interpret it as giving Template Levels.

Character Level (CL) = Hit Dice (HD) = Sum of Class Levels that give hit dice = Number of Hit Dice regardless of Hit Dice Size.

Class Level (CL) = Levels in your class + "+1 to existing * class"
Spellcaster
Arcane Spellcaster
Divine Spellcaster
Psionic
et cetera
Class Level affects the progression of Spells per Day/Known and Spell Level access.

Caster Level (CL) =
Class Level (Full Caster) + Bonus
Class Level / 2 (Half Caster) + Bonus
Caster Level affects the power of scale-able spells listed in their description as a function of caster level usually listed as level within the spell description.

The issue here is that Class Level (CL) and Caster Level (CL) are both abbreviated with CL, and many people have difficulty interpreting the difference between them. Character Level (CL) has an alternative abbreviation Hit Dice (HD) so it does not have as much problem as the other two.




Effective Character Level (ECL): A creature's effective character level is the sum of its level adjustment, Hit Dice, and class levels. Use character level for all game functions except awarding experience, determining starting equipment, and determining how much experience the character needs to gain a new level. All three of those functions use effective character level instead.

Effective Character Level (ECL): This number represents a creature’s overall power relative to that of a character from the Player’s Handbook. A creature with an ECL of 10 is roughly equivalent to a 10th-level character. A creature’s ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a splinterwaif has 2 HD and a +4 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of a 6th-level character.

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).
Blood Lines are class levels!

[XionUnborn01]

This is like weaponized ignorance of how to read the English language and understand the basic rules of this game.

I'll throw this out there though, it absolutely, in nonincertain terms, gives you ONLY +1 to your caster level. Period. Then it tells you that that +1 bonus cant make your caster level exceed your character level.
So wiz2/ftr2 casts as a wizard 3. That's the whole bonus.

It doesnt specify multi clashing? You're right, it doesnt. Theres other reasons that your character level would be higher than your caster level. Maybe you took a feat that lowers your CL, maybe you took a class feature that lowers your CL, or here's a crazy thought, maybe you have a level adjustment from a template.

You're aggressively and hilariously wrong here.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'll throw this out there though, it absolutely, in nonincertain terms, gives you ONLY +1 to your caster level. Period. Then it tells you that that +1 bonus cant make your caster level exceed your character level.

Firstly and foremost, all Sigil racial traits increase their bonus by +1 at level 2. So the total bonus is +2.

Secondly, although the caster level boost was likely intended to be unable to exceed your character level, that's not what the text actually says:



Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).
Emphasis mine.

This would make the bonus more akin to an Orange Ioun Stone or the Archmage's Spell Power High Arcana.

Powerful? Certainly. Broken? I shouldn't think so.

[HouseRules]

Practiced Spellcaster
( Complete Divine, p. 82)

[General]

Choose a spellcasting class that you possess. Your spells cast from that class are more powerful.
Prerequisite

Spellcraft 4 ranks,
Benefit

Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus. For example, a human 5th-level cleric/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his cleric caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 HD). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his cleric caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 HD). A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect. This does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.
Special

You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class. For instance, a 4th-level cleric/5th-level wizard who had selected this feat twice would cast cleric spells as an 8th-level caster and wizard spells as a 9th-level caster.


I believe someone is trying to get the underlined part to be General Rule, when it is a specific rule for Practiced Spellcaster.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I believe someone is trying to get the underlined part to be General Rule, when it is a specific rule for Practiced Spellcaster.

That would seem to be part of the issue.

I admit that the Illumian's Krau ability is poorly worded, that probably isn't helping at all.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A wizard level 5 can cast level 3 spells, with Krau sigil all spells are cast as if they are caster level 7 spells that is ALL spells. With IKS you pick 2 spells there is nothing that says that they have to be level 1 spells they can be any spells. Those spells that are effected by IKS are cast as if they are level 8 spells. that is they way this works.
No, because Heighten Spell does not increase caster level. It increases spell level. Yes, it's confusing when WotC uses the word "level" to mean six different things, but that's the way it is.

[Hunterx]

Disintegrate. Level 6 spell, available at CL 11. That's 22d6 (average 77) damage, which, against a level 11 Barbarian with 18 Con, fails to kill most of the time since they have 132 HP. In fact, it literally has to roll MAX DAMAGE to kill them.

Now, at CL 22, it does 40d6 damage. That gives you a greater than 75% chance of one-shotting a Barbarian.

The Barbarian CAN be an ubercharger or something and have enough damage to kill a Wizard in one go... But the Wizard can easily have Abrupt Jaunt and just dodge it.

First off Disintegrate maxes out at 20D6 period and there are ways you can cast this maximized and it will barley take a spell level higher.

The ubercharger Barb comes online ate level 4-5 depending on the race if your an orc it comes on at 4 if your anything else 5

Adrupt Jaunt is not a common spell that any spell caster takes so the odds of having it are slim to none with slim closing the door and locking it behind him.

So your thoughts and ideas are shot down next

[Hunterx]

This is like weaponized ignorance of how to read the English language and understand the basic rules of this game.

I'll throw this out there though, it absolutely, in nonincertain terms, gives you ONLY +1 to your caster level. Period. Then it tells you that that +1 bonus cant make your caster level exceed your character level.
So wiz2/ftr2 casts as a wizard 3. That's the whole bonus.

It doesnt specify multi clashing? You're right, it doesnt. Theres other reasons that your character level would be higher than your caster level. Maybe you took a feat that lowers your CL, maybe you took a class feature that lowers your CL, or here's a crazy thought, maybe you have a level adjustment from a template.

You're aggressively and hilariously wrong here.

No you used a multi class character as an example so you are wrong because you have said that it does not say you need to be one yet you use it. Now at wiz2/Ftr2 and this sigil your caster level is 4 not 3 and if you went wiz 2/ftr3 it would be 5 because that is the maximum of your character level, which is 5 not 3 not 4 but 5 yes you are still casting only Lv 1 spells but you are casting those spells as if you were a level 5 wiz

[Hunterx]

No, because Heighten Spell does not increase caster level. It increases spell level. Yes, it's confusing when WotC uses the word "level" to mean six different things, but that's the way it is.


Heighten spell makes your spells cast as if they were a Higher level. And they even take a higher level spell slot to do so so yes, for those spells effected by heighten spell they are cast as if you were a higher level caster.

[ColorBlindNinja]

First off Disintegrate maxes out at 20D6 period

:smallconfused: Say what?


Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6).
Emphasis mine.

EDIT:


Heighten spell makes your spells cast as if they were a Higher level. And they even take a higher level spell slot to do so so yes, for those spells effected by heighten spell they are cast as if you were a higher level caster.

That's not how Heighten spell works.

[AvatarVecna]

First off Disintegrate maxes out at 20D6 period and there are ways you can cast this maximized and it will barley take a spell level higher.

The ubercharger Barb comes online ate level 4-5 depending on the race if your an orc it comes on at 4 if your anything else 5

Adrupt Jaunt is not a common spell that any spell caster takes so the odds of having it are slim to none with slim closing the door and locking it behind him.

So your thoughts and ideas are shot down next

Excuse you? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm)

"A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6)."

[AvatarVecna]

Heighten spell makes your spells cast as if they were a Higher level. And they even take a higher level spell slot to do so so yes, for those spells effected by heighten spell they are cast as if you were a higher level caster.

Excuse you? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell)

"A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level."

Heighten Spell increases the Spell Level of the spell you're casting; it specifies that, unlike with every other metamagic feat in existence, it's not just changing the level of the slot required to cast the spell, but rather the actual level of the spell itself, but this doesn't change your caster level nor your ability to cast spells of the level you're heightening it to. For example, if you Empower a Fireball, you're casting a 3rd level spell in a 5th level slot for additional effect, but if you Heighten a Fireball to 5th level, you're casting a 5th level spell in a 5th level slot. Heighten Spell doesn't mention Caster Level anywhere.

I can see where you could maybe get confused about this; the Shadowcraft Mage handbook talks about using Heighten Spell + Earth Spell to get big Caster Level benefits, but that's because Earth Spell adds a CL increase to how you can use Heighten while standing on solid ground - that caster level increase is not a part of the basic Heighten Spell at all.

[Hunterx]

:smallconfused: Say what?


Emphasis mine.

EDIT:



That's not how Heighten spell works.

Oops you are correct it is 40d6

Benefit

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Benefit

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

It's not talking about caster level, it means spell level, like 5th level spell.

Also, see what AvatarVecna posted. :smallsmile:

[AvatarVecna]

First off Disintegrate maxes out at 20D6 period and there are ways you can cast this maximized and it will barley take a spell level higher.

The ubercharger Barb comes online ate level 4-5 depending on the race if your an orc it comes on at 4 if your anything else 5

Adrupt Jaunt is not a common spell that any spell caster takes so the odds of having it are slim to none with slim closing the door and locking it behind him.

So your thoughts and ideas are shot down next

Also, and this is a minor point of contention, but Abrupt Jaunt is an alternate class feature - not a spell - that gets commonly recommended for Wizard players to use in situations like this one - it's a way to use an Immediate Action to reposition yourself via teleportation that can ruin somebody's charge, or somebody's AoE. But let's ignore that for a moment, because yes, a Barbarian should be able to one-shot an equal-level wizard while the wizard is unable to do the same. Superman is allowed to be able to just one-punch Batman into a grave, but Batman shouldn't be able to do the same in reverse, because punching super-hard isn't Batman's thing. Barbarians only get "hitting stuff", while Wizards get to do basically everything; if the world was balanced, than barbarians would be so good at hitting stuff that they wouldn't need to be good at anything else to be able to contribute. But instead D&D takes place in world where Batman is also super-good at just winning straight up fights with people way outside his weight-class because he's got performance-enhancing magic, and is able to cheat.

Case in point, your ubercharge comes online at level 5, and so does the Fly spell that renders your ubercharging potential irrelevant in a 1v1. At 7th level, I polymorph into a 7-headed cyrohydra and now I ubercharge better than you (oh, and side note, Polymorph is one of the few really good spells that this Caster Level buff wouldn't ruin, because Polymorph is capped by three things and CL is only one of them). At 9th level, Scry n Die is online so now I can kill the barbarian while he's sleeping whenever I get the urge, and his options are "stay awake and eternally vigilant forever" or "lose super-hard the second I decide I want to kill him". At 11th level, I could summon up an Efreeti to give me infinite wishes with which to ruin the barbarians life like I'm Hera and he's Heracles. At 13th level, I can start staging the fight from other dimensions the barbarian can't even hope to access. At 15th level, I could permanently no-save turn the barbarian into a normal rat permanently and then set my familiar on them for ****s and giggles, or stick them in a maze for 10 minutes (assuming the barbarian has an Int penalty), or surround them with a rainbow wall and double-dog-dare them to charge through it unless they're a coward. At 17th level, I can turn into basically any monster and stomp him hard, or or summon basically any monster to stomp him hard for me, or just say out loud "I wish you were swimming in the planet's mantle" and it would just happen, like magic, and now he's taking 20d6/round until he dies unless he's got a magic trick up his sleeve (cuz no way he's surviving that swim legitimately).

It's basically never really a contest. Abrupt Jaunt just gives you some slight protection against that tactic from first level, but by no means is it the only way wizards can ignore uberchargers getting up in their grill.

[AvatarVecna]

Oops you are correct it is 40d6

Benefit

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

"A heightened spell has a higher spell level1 than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies.2 All effects dependent on spell level1 (such as saving throw DCs3 and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability4) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.5"

1: Spell level, not caster level.

2: "Unlike other metamagic feats" is the keyword here; Heighten Spell works differently in regards to how it interacts with "the effective level of the spell that it modifies". To quote: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats)


Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

Heighten Spell is a specific exception to this general rule; it has nothing to do with Caster Level, but spell level. Additionally, the very next line of heighten spell explains this with two examples:

3: The saving throw of a DC is based on the Spell Level (not the caster level), and it's part of the Metamagic rules that (while the slot level used to cast the spell is bigger), the actual level of the spell hasn't increased, so an Empowered Fireball uses the same Save DC as your 3rd level spells, not your 5th level spells. Again, Heighten Spell, in its own feat description, is called out as a specific exception to this rule.

4: Your ability to penetrate a Lesser Globe Of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) is based on the Spell Level of the spell you're casting, not your caster level. It doesn't matter if a Wizard 1000 is casting the spell, if he casts a normal Burning Hands at the globe, it's not getting through.

5: Caster Level has no effect on how difficult spells are to prepare or cast. Spell Level affects it, though, by affecting the slot level you need to prepare/cast the spell in.

Every single time "Level" is mentioned in Heighten Spell, it is either explicitly specifically about Spell Level, or it is in reference to another mechanic that is directly affected by Spell Level and not affected at all by Caster Level. The only way to read Heighten Spell and believe it affects Caster Level is to be incredibly obtuse, intentionally or otherwise.

[Hunterx]

It's not talking about caster level, it means spell level, like 5th level spell.

Also, see what AvatarVecna posted. :smallsmile:

How do you get higher spell levels, by having a higher caster level.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How do you get higher spell levels, by having a higher caster level.

I give up. You're clearly not listening to a word I'm saying. :smallannoyed:

[RoboEmperor]

How do you get higher spell levels, by having a higher caster level.

A level 2 Cleric Illumian uses Naenhoon to heighten a level 1 spell to a level 9 spell. Does its CL increase?

[AvatarVecna]

How do you get higher spell levels, by having a higher caster level.

Quote me a rule right now that explicitly stats casting a 4th level spell requires Caster Level 7.

[Hunterx]

Again most of you are missing the underlined part of this racial ability, and heighten spell make sure spells act like they are a higher level without ( increasing the level my mistake here).

The point is that Krau, as a whole and because of the writing , can give you a bonus up to a maximum of your current character level. +1 to caster level involving spells and spell like abilities.

There is only one way you can ever get to your character level as a bonus and that is if the +1 scales. So how does it scal well getting to level 2 makes the +1 a +2.

Would it not make logical sense that if at level 2 you got +2 and level 1 you got plus 1. That at level 3 you get plus three, and so on.

If you say no, then you assume WOTC made a mistake in this writing, I say they made a mistake and forgot to put in one word. The word per right in front of character level, is easier to miss than a complete line.

So maybe WOTC made a mistake but it was just leaving out the word per not an entire line in a racial ability.

Truly get a grip ppl. It is a game were incredible things happen so why can't this..

In any point this racial ability is not PS so it should not be treated as it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Would it not make logical sense that if at level 2 you got +2 and level 1 you got plus 1. That at level 3 you get plus three, and so on.

This is where this entire chain of thought falls apart. There is absolutely nothing to imply that the racial trait boosts your CL any higher than +2.

[RoboEmperor]

First off, WotC never has playable races have broken **** out of the box. Never. You are saying they gave you double caster level out of the box. The guys who made +1 caster level from IOun stone cost 30,000gp gave you a free Ioun Stone Orange at level 1. No. They did not. They gave you a lesser practiced spellcaster. In fact look at the other words. They made sure +1 save DC from Naenkrau doesn't stack. You're telling us these guys gave you double caster level for free. You have got to be kidding me.

Everyone but you reads the ability like a lesser Practiced Spellcaster.

WotC made this race for Multiclassing.

There is a literal 0% chance you're right.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

How do you get higher spell levels, by having a higher caster level.

You get higher level spells by having a higher class level. Not caster level.

[Deophaun]

Also, and this is a minor point of contention, but Abrupt Jaunt is an alternate class feature - not a spell - that gets commonly recommended for Wizard players to use in situations like this one - it's a way to use an Immediate Action to reposition yourself via teleportation that can ruin somebody's charge
Well, only circumstantially. In an open field with no cover and a charger with plenty of movement speed, it's not going to do squat due to how charge's rules are actually written.

[ColorBlindNinja]

First off, WotC never has playable races have broken **** out of the box. Never. You are saying they gave you double caster level out of the box. The guys who made +1 caster level from IOun stone cost 30,000gp gave you a free Ioun Stone Orange at level 1. No. They did not. They gave you a lesser practiced spellcaster. In fact look at the other words. They made sure +1 save DC from Naenkrau doesn't stack. You're telling us these guys gave you double caster level for free. You have got to be kidding me.

I think you're being too generous to WotC.

These are the same people who gave us Manipulate Form, Ice Assassin and Epic Spellcasting.


Well, only circumstantially. In an open field with no cover and a charger with plenty of movement speed, it's not going to do squat due to how charge's rules are actually written.

Not to derail, but I'm curious what you mean by that.

[RoboEmperor]

These are the same people who gave us Manipulate Form, Ice Assassin and Epic Spellcasting.

I said playable race. I have yet to see a broken playable race. I mean I've seen brokenly unplayably weak races due to LA, but not brokenly powerful races. Dragonwrought Kobold is broken because of its interaction with other stuff.

Ice Assassin has to exist because similar stuff exists in other works of fiction. It's cool and awesome in the hands of the DM, but not in the hands of an optimizer.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I said playable race. I have yet to see a broken playable race. I mean I've seen brokenly unplayably weak races due to LA, but not brokenly powerful races. Dragonwrought Kobold is broken because of its interaction with other stuff.

That doesn't mean that a potentially broken race isn't out there.


Ice Assassin has to exist because similar stuff exists in other works of fiction. It's cool and awesome in the hands of the DM, but not in the hands of an optimizer.

I am convinced that it isn't possible for players to use Ice Assassin without it breaking the game.

[tyckspoon]

Not to derail, but I'm curious what you mean by that.

Depends on how you think Charge works, and whether or not you're allowed to change your target square once you've started Charging. It's kind of messed up in the same way that almost everything to do with Immediate actions is messed up, because the game was never intended to handle interrupt abilities. Basically, the Charger declares their target and which square they're going to Charge to to make their attack. The target interrupts with Abrupt Jaunt, and now they're ten feet to the left or further back or whatever, and once the Charger gets to their destination square they would no longer have the target in reach, spoiling the Charge. The target's current position is still a valid Charge location, tho - the Charger can still draw a line such that they could Charge that spot. Are they allowed to do so? Are they committed to the original Charge destination once they started the action? AFAIK the rules provide no clear way to resolve the question, because again, never originally intended to have abilities that could interrupt other actions in progress (see also the debate about whether you can Abrupt Jaunt out of the way of a projectile attack.)

[RoboEmperor]

I am convinced that it isn't possible for players to use Ice Assassin without it breaking the game.

It costs more than wish and it can never be healed, ever. So it's much worse than gate in a straight up fight. Not to mention you need a piece of the guy you want to kill to use ice assassin.

Using eschew materials or conjure components to create an ice assassin of something you don't have any intention of killing (like an ice assassin of a tarrasque to kill a rogue instead of an ice assassin of that same rogue) and bypassing the material component breaks the game but this is not how the spell is intended to be used. Use it as intended and no one will use it because it's pretty crap.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Depends on how you think Charge works, and whether or not you're allowed to change your target square once you've started Charging. It's kind of messed up in the same way that almost everything to do with Immediate actions is messed up, because the game was never intended to handle interrupt abilities. Basically, the Charger declares their target and which square they're going to Charge to to make their attack. The target interrupts with Abrupt Jaunt, and now they're ten feet to the left or further back or whatever, and once the Charger gets to their destination square they would no longer have the target in reach, spoiling the Charge. The target's current position is still a valid Charge location, tho - the Charger can still draw a line such that they could Charge that spot. Are they allowed to do so? Are they committed to the original Charge destination once they started the action? AFAIK the rules provide no clear way to resolve the question, because again, never originally intended to have abilities that could interrupt other actions in progress (see also the debate about whether you can Abrupt Jaunt out of the way of a projectile attack.)

:smallconfused: I would have thought that would have been covered under the "cannot change direction" clause.

[Deophaun]

Depends on how you think Charge works, and whether or not you're allowed to change your target square once you've started Charging. It's kind of messed up in the same way that almost everything to do with Immediate actions is messed up, because the game was never intended to handle interrupt abilities. Basically, the Charger declares their target and which square they're going to Charge to to make their attack. The target interrupts with Abrupt Jaunt, and now they're ten feet to the left or further back or whatever, and once the Charger gets to their destination square they would no longer have the target in reach, spoiling the Charge. The target's current position is still a valid Charge location, tho - the Charger can still draw a line such that they could Charge that spot. Are they allowed to do so? Are they committed to the original Charge destination once they started the action? AFAIK the rules provide no clear way to resolve the question, because again, never originally intended to have abilities that could interrupt other actions in progress (see also the debate about whether you can Abrupt Jaunt out of the way of a projectile attack.)
You're very close and nothing you said is wrong, but there is a weird interaction you also miss, and that is with blocking terrain. If you AJ to place a creature between you and where the charger is right now, it doesn't mess up the charge. Instead, you need to AJ and place a creature between you and the square the charge began in.

If you just read the first sentence of the second paragraph, it seems to be fine and make sense. Then WotC goes and says "This is what it means" in the second sentence, throwing out the conclusion that a reasonable person came to after the first and replacing it with their utter mess.

Also, I am firmly in the "$%#& Wizards" camp. Anything that's RAW that #$%#s over wizards (or tier 1s more generally) stays, no matter how nonsensical it may be.

:smallconfused: I would have thought that would have been covered under the "cannot change direction" clause.
You are going to have to cite that clause, 'cause I don't see the phrase "cannot change direction" anywhere in the charging rules.

[Hunterx]

Quote me a rule right now that explicitly stats casting a 4th level spell requires Caster Level 7.

You need to be a 7th level caster as a wizard to cast 4th level spells

However you can cast spells as an effective level higher but you do not get access to the 4th level spells they are treated as 4th level spells for effects duration range and the what not.

But you do not gain the spells on the fourth level spell list.

That is not hard to understand i do not know how you can not grasp that.

[RoboEmperor]

You need to be a 7th level caster as a wizard to cast 4th level spells

However you can cast spells as an effective level higher but you do not get access to the 4th level spells they are treated as 4th level spells for effects duration range and the what not.

But you do not gain the spells on the fourth level spell list.

That is not hard to understand i do not know how you can not grasp that.

Divine Crusaders cast 4th level spells as 4th caster level.

Sublime Chord and Nar Demonbinder can cast 4th level spells at 2nd caster level.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You're very close and nothing you said is wrong, but there is a weird interaction you also miss, and that is with blocking terrain. If you AJ to place a creature between you and where the charger is right now, it doesn't mess up the charge. Instead, you need to AJ and place a creature between you and the square the charge began in.

If you just read the first sentence of the second paragraph, it seems to be fine and make sense. Then WotC goes and says "This is what it means" in the second sentence, throwing out the conclusion that a reasonable person came to after the first and replacing it with their utter mess.

Wouldn't this clause be relevant?



Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.

Or are you saying that only applies when you start a charge?


You are going to have to cite that clause, 'cause I don't see the phrase "cannot change direction" anywhere in the charging rules.

I was thinking of this passage:



You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

Emphasis mine.

[Hunterx]

This is where this entire chain of thought falls apart. There is absolutely nothing to imply that the racial trait boosts your CL any higher than +2.


There is when it says it can go to a maximum of your character level. This implies that it can go higher than 2 so what is the only way that can be done well that would be character levels. How is this hard to understand i really do not know. I get what you are all saying and in some context it sound perfect however the RAW is RAW and it is not RAI.

[Hunterx]

First off, WotC never has playable races have broken **** out of the box. Never. You are saying they gave you double caster level out of the box. The guys who made +1 caster level from IOun stone cost 30,000gp gave you a free Ioun Stone Orange at level 1. No. They did not. They gave you a lesser practiced spellcaster. In fact look at the other words. They made sure +1 save DC from Naenkrau doesn't stack. You're telling us these guys gave you double caster level for free. You have got to be kidding me.

Everyone but you reads the ability like a lesser Practiced Spellcaster.

WotC made this race for Multiclassing.

There is a literal 0% chance you're right.

well yes they did because a spell caster Illumian with Krau casts spells as if they were caster level 2 so yes they did

[ColorBlindNinja]

There is when it says it can go to a maximum of your character level. This implies that it can go higher than 2 so what is the only way that can be done well that would be character levels.

It implies the potential to raise it higher than +2, it in no way shape or form does what you think it does.


How is this hard to understand i really do not know.

You of all people shouldn't go around saying that.


well yes they did because a spell caster Illumian with Krau casts spells as if they were caster level 2 so yes they did

You're assuming your own conclusion. The one you haven't proved. At all.

[Hunterx]

Divine Crusaders cast 4th level spells as 4th caster level.

Sublime Chord and Nar Demonbinder can cast 4th level spells at 2nd caster level.

No they are not casting 4th level spells at 2nd level. You need to

Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells. which means you have to be x level to cast 3rd level arcane spells.

when they say third level arcane spells, now that can be RAI, is it the spells on the 3rd level list or is it a level 1 spell being effected to a 3rd level.

That you can say is more difficult to understand than what i am saying.

[Hunterx]

It implies the potential to raise it higher than +2, it in no way shape or form does what you think it does.



You of all people shouldn't go around saying that.



You're assuming your own conclusion. The one you haven't proved. At all.

There is nothing that says it may which would be potential, it very clearly says. There is not implied potential there at all.

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

[Hunterx]

It implies the potential to raise it higher than +2, it in no way shape or form does what you think it does.



You of all people shouldn't go around saying that.



You're assuming your own conclusion. The one you haven't proved. At all.

it says it right in the sigil are you reading with the force try opening your eyes and reading what it says

here let ,me help you

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

there is nothing and i mean nothing in this that says that you have to be a muliti class character for this to work at all not even a little hint of it. So truly stop trying to turn a racial ability into a feat when it is not.

[Deophaun]

Wouldn't this clause be relevant?
It is relevant at all times, however, note that it is always tied to the starting square, not where the charger is presently.

I was thinking of this passage:
And that does not say you cannot change your direction if your designated opponent suddenly goes somewhere else. Up to this point, all of your movement has been towards the closest square you could attack him from, and from this point forward, all your movement will be towards the closest square you can attack him from. The rules don't care if you have to make a 90 degree turn to accomplish that (It might very well care if you have to make a 180, due to the previous clause about having nothing that interferes with movement between your starting and ending space, as your target is now blocking your charge path to him!).

[AvatarVecna]

You need to be a 7th level caster as a wizard to cast 4th level spells

However you can cast spells as an effective level higher but you do not get access to the 4th level spells they are treated as 4th level spells for effects duration range and the what not.

But you do not gain the spells on the fourth level spell list.

That is not hard to understand i do not know how you can not grasp that.

There is no hard rule stating that a certain caster level is required to cast a certain spell level. For any individual class, their class defines what their caster level is, and when they get access to certain spell levels, but there's no general rule saying anything like "you need to have CL 7 to cast 4th level spells." A fairly common optimization trick for entering prestige classes early is to combine Heighten Spell with Versatile Spellcaster to use (for example) two third-level slots and a base 3rd level spell to end up casting a 4th level spell in a 4th level slot, but with Caster Level 5. Similarly, the Divine Crusader prestige class gets casting, and gains access to 4th level spells at level 4 of the class, and has no special line indicating their Caster Level is any higher than 4 for this casting (such as the line in Ur Priest), therefore the Divine Crusader's caster level is 4 for their 4th level spells.

Occasions where spells become castable before the normal Caster Level threshold are rare, but they do exist, and they prove the point. Caster Level 7 is not a prerequisite of casting 4th lvl spells in the general rules.

[ColorBlindNinja]

it says it right in the sigil are you reading with the force try opening your eyes and reading what it says

here let ,me help you

You seriously need to stop. The only one who's having trouble understanding the text is you.


Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Yeah, I've read it, like 15 times now. It still doesn't say what you claim it does.


there is nothing and i mean nothing in this that says that you have to be a muliti class character for this to work at all not even a little hint of it.

And I never claimed that it did. :smallannoyed:


So truly stop trying to turn a racial ability into a feat when it is not.

What are you even talking about?

You are nitpicking a single sentence and trying to twist it into meaning something it clearly doesn't.

If you won't accept that, this "debate" is over.


It is relevant at all times, however, note that it is always tied to the starting square, not where the charger is presently.

It implies that if the line from your starting square to your target suddenly is obstructed, the charge is illegal.


And that does not say you cannot change your direction if your designated opponent suddenly goes somewhere else. Up to this point, all of your movement has been towards the closest square you could attack him from, and from this point forward, all your movement will be towards the closest square you can attack him from. The rules don't care if you have to make a 90 degree turn to accomplish that (It might very well care if you have to make a 180, due to the previous clause about having nothing that interferes with movement between your starting and ending space, as your target is now blocking your charge path to him!).

Everyone I have ever seen has interpreted the line about moving straight directly toward your foe as "you can't make turns".

EDIT: I suspect this discussion will boil down to what "directly" means in this context. :smallfrown:

[Deophaun]

It implies that if the line from your starting square to your target suddenly is obstructed, the charge is illegal.
It doesn't imply. It flat out states it.

Everyone I have ever seen has interpreted the line about moving straight as "you can't make turns".
Yes, I know. That still doesn't make the interpretation RAW.

A lot of people read the first sentence and stop. They don't dissect the "what this means" part, which is where you get some quantum-physics like weirdness. For instance, if I ready an action to run behind a charger when he is halfway to his target, I have now spoiled the charge by virtue of being between his starting square and his ending square. Why? Because that's what the rules say. "Oh, guy's now behind me. I've lost the will to attack you for reasons, I guess." It is delightfully nonsensical, and I've killed cocky wizards with it, so I love it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It doesn't imply. It flat out states it.

Yes, I know. That still doesn't make the interpretation RAW.

A lot of people read the first sentence and stop. They don't dissect the "what this means" part, which is where you get some quantum-physics like weirdness. For instance, if I ready an action to run behind a charger when he is halfway to his target, I have now spoiled the charge by virtue of being between his starting square and his ending square. Why? Because that's what the rules say. "Oh, guy's now behind me. I've lost the will to attack you for reasons, I guess." It is delightfully nonsensical, and I've killed cocky wizards with it, so I love it.

All this tells me is that the charging rules are horribly written. :smallfrown:

EDIT: Also, couldn't the Wizard Abrupt Jaunt behind the charging warrior? Or Abrupt Jaunt just as they attack?

[Deophaun]

Also, couldn't the Wizard Abrupt Jaunt behind the charging warrior?
Yes.

Or Abrupt Jaunt just as they attack?
No. This is due to how attacking works; if you haven't rolled a d20, you haven't attacked. And if you do roll the d20, there is nothing that can stop that attack from dealing damage if it meets your AC (and miss chance).

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yes.

Makes sense.


No. This is due to how attacking works; if you haven't rolled a d20, you haven't attacked. And if you do roll the d20, there is nothing that can stop that attack from dealing damage if it meets your AC (and miss chance).

I think this is where immediate action teleports produce a divide by cucumber error with the rules.

[Hunterx]

There is no hard rule stating that a certain caster level is required to cast a certain spell level. For any individual class, their class defines what their caster level is, and when they get access to certain spell levels, but there's no general rule saying anything like "you need to have CL 7 to cast 4th level spells." A fairly common optimization trick for entering prestige classes early is to combine Heighten Spell with Versatile Spellcaster to use (for example) two third-level slots and a base 3rd level spell to end up casting a 4th level spell in a 4th level slot, but with Caster Level 5. Similarly, the Divine Crusader prestige class gets casting, and gains access to 4th level spells at level 4 of the class, and has no special line indicating their Caster Level is any higher than 4 for this casting (such as the line in Ur Priest), therefore the Divine Crusader's caster level is 4 for their 4th level spells.

Occasions where spells become castable before the normal Caster Level threshold are rare, but they do exist, and they prove the point. Caster Level 7 is not a prerequisite of casting 4th lvl spells in the general rules.

Again when you say 4th level spells are you talking spells that are on the 4th level list or ones that are boosted somehow to be 4th level. That is the key question, if it is the first one then you have to be a Character/Caster of 7th level to cast spells that are on the 4th level list.

If it is the second one than yes there are a ton of ways to boost say mage armour from a level 1 spell to a level 4 5 6 spell whatever it may be. But if you do not have the spell level slot then you can not cast the spell. Unless the spell is just acting as it is a x level spell which would come form a x level spellcaster.

I understand this greatly and i see what everyone has tried to say, but the fact that it says a maximum of character level, i can not believe that they would print an entire line that has 0 content at all. when all they had to do was say

Gain a +1 bonus caster level to spells and spell like abilities. That is clear it says it all. The second part in the race would boost that to a +2 it makes sense it is simple. The bottom half had to have something for it and the only way is but going up in levels.

[Hunterx]

It doesn't imply. It flat out states it.

Yes, I know. That still doesn't make the interpretation RAW.

A lot of people read the first sentence and stop. They don't dissect the "what this means" part, which is where you get some quantum-physics like weirdness. For instance, if I ready an action to run behind a charger when he is halfway to his target, I have now spoiled the charge by virtue of being between his starting square and his ending square. Why? Because that's what the rules say. "Oh, guy's now behind me. I've lost the will to attack you for reasons, I guess." It is delightfully nonsensical, and I've killed cocky wizards with it, so I love it.

there is even an feat that allows you to make a 90 degree turn while in a charge. You have to make a direct line to your opponent.

[tyckspoon]

A lot of people read the first sentence and stop. They don't dissect the "what this means" part, which is where you get some quantum-physics like weirdness. For instance, if I ready an action to run behind a charger when he is halfway to his target, I have now spoiled the charge by virtue of being between his starting square and his ending square. Why? Because that's what the rules say. "Oh, guy's now behind me. I've lost the will to attack you for reasons, I guess." It is delightfully nonsensical, and I've killed cocky wizards with it, so I love it.

Readied actions at least have the rules-hack of explicitly stating they occur before the triggering action. This creates its own weird time-travel paradox situations, but at least it doesn't pretend that you're actually acting in the middle of the interrupted action.. in your example, when you ready on somebody charging, you would actually move into place before they ever start their charge. So their action didn't happen, is in fact now potentially illegal and cannot be done because there is an obstruction in the Charge path, and they can choose to do something else. (Which creates the paradox, because now they're not Charging, so your Readied action no longer sees its trigger and you don't do it, which lets them Charge again. Don't think about it too much, D&D's action timing breaks entirely when you try to introduce any kind of out-of-turn acting.)

Edit: Tangentially, this also means the classic 'I ready to hit him when he casts a spell' doesn't really do what it's supposed to do, either - since the readied attack goes off before the caster ever actually starts his spell, you will never have a chance to actually interrupt the spell. This is generally politely ignored as really stupid, because readying to interrupt a spell cast is like 80% of the reason to even have readied actions.

[Hunterx]

Ok then I am going to try this your way and see if it makes sense.

Race Illumian
Sigil Aesh Krau,
Power Word AESHKRAU
Class: Duskblade 5 Wild Mage 5

So if i go the way your saying, i would be casting third level spells as a minimum of a 10th level caster.
5 from duskblade, 5 from wild mage -3 for wild effect caster levels +2 caster levels from Krau and a minimum of +1 on a dice for a minimum of CL 10.

Now the Max would be a CL 15, if i roll a 6 on the dice.


If this holds true, and this is your math. What you all have been saying.

[DeTess]

No they are not casting 4th level spells at 2nd level. You need to

Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells. which means you have to be x level to cast 3rd level arcane spells.

when they say third level arcane spells, now that can be RAI, is it the spells on the 3rd level list or is it a level 1 spell being effected to a 3rd level.

That you can say is more difficult to understand than what i am saying.

Divine Crusader has no such requirement. All it needs is some skill-points and some BaB.

[DeTess]

Ok then I am going to try this your way and see if it makes sense.

Race Illumian
Sigil Aesh Krau,
Power Word AESHKRAU
Class: Duskblade 5 Wild Mage 5

So if i go the way your saying, i would be casting third level spells as a minimum of a 10th level caster.
5 from duskblade, 5 from wild mage -3 for wild effect caster levels +2 caster levels from Krau and a minimum of +1 on a dice for a minimum of CL 10.

Now the Max would be a CL 15, if i roll a 6 on the dice.


If this holds true, and this is your math. What you all have been saying.

Let's see, this holds up depending on how you read it, but it might instead be that the max CL is 13, as the bonus from Krau can't exceed your HD, which it would the moment you rolled more than a 1 on the d6. That's very much open to interpretation though.

[Hunterx]

Let's see, this holds up depending on how you read it, but it might instead be that the max CL is 13, as the bonus from Krau can't exceed your HD, which it would the moment you rolled more than a 1 on the d6. That's very much open to interpretation though.


no the bonus from krau is +2 as per the second level character illumian

[DeTess]

no the bonus from krau is +2 as per the second level character illumian

You know what, I'm not even going to discuss this. I might rule differently, but I think a significant portion of the DM's will rule it as you described.

[umbergod]

there is even an feat that allows you to make a 90 degree turn while in a charge. You have to make a direct line to your opponent.

Not to mention if you could change direction midcharge it would make the Drunken Master's Corkscrew Charge ability kind of redundant dont you think?

Also i am convinced OP is the dread sorcerer returned 😂

[ColorBlindNinja]

Also i am convinced OP is the dread sorcerer returned 😂

Speak not his name! Lest you summon him! :smalleek:

[AvatarVecna]

Speak not his name! Lest you summon him! :smalleek:

Nah, he only haunts the 5e subforum now.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Nah, he only haunts the 5e subforum now.

Now I feel bad for the 5e people. :smallfrown:

[Hunterx]

Speak not his name! Lest you summon him! :smalleek:

So no one that argued against the way i see it wants to chime in on the silly little build i posted using the math that you have provided.


This is just more proof that my reading of this is more correct than, and you all are looking at it as if it is like PS feat which it is not.

[ColorBlindNinja]

So no one that argued against the way i see it wants to chime in on the silly little build i posted using the math that you have provided.


This is just more proof that my reading of this is more correct than, and you all are looking at it as if it is like PS feat which it is not.

I've already explained to you several times how the ability works.

You didn't listen. :smallannoyed:

[DeTess]

So no one that argued against the way i see it wants to chime in on the silly little build i posted using the math that you have provided.


This is just more proof that my reading of this is more correct than, and you all are looking at it as if it is like PS feat which it is not.

Ehm, practiced spellcaster would work the same way in that build as the race does.


Now I feel bad for the 5e people. :smallfrown:

yeah, it's annoying when he pops up there, but at least I've seen enough of him to know that he and HunterX aren't the same.

[umbergod]

So no one that argued against the way i see it wants to chime in on the silly little build i posted using the math that you have provided.


This is just more proof that my reading of this is more correct than, and you all are looking at it as if it is like PS feat which it is not.

You seem so certain of your stance yet in your OP youre asking if youre interpreting the rules correctly. Everyone has said no, including some known 3.x filthy optimizers (filthy being in jest of course)

[Hunterx]

Ehm, practiced spellcaster would work the same way in that build as the race does.



yeah, it's annoying when he pops up there, but at least I've seen enough of him to know that he and HunterX aren't the same.

No you both insist that you have to multi class and you do not have to do such a thing. SO since you truly have no idea how this ability realy works and you think it works like a feat. I will say good bye because you both are nuts.

Learn the game learn the abilities than come talk when you have a clearer picture of what the truth is because all you are doing is trying to handicap a player if they use that race and sigil because you think it is to strong.

There are far far far more power things than that and you are both just close minded to it because you can not see what is as clear as water to others.

[tyckspoon]

No you both insist that you have to multi class and you do not have to do such a thing. SO since you truly have no idea how this ability realy works and you think it works like a feat. I will say good bye because you both are nuts.


I'll admit I've been having some difficulty following the thread of actual arguments in here, but I don't think anybody is saying you have to multiclass to get the bonus from the sigil - they're saying the bonus you get from it cannot exceed your HD, so if your caster level is equal to your HD already then there is no benefit. (This seems to be something you strenuously disagree with, and I don't think it's worth trying to change your mind - just attempting to clarify the discussion.) The most common way to have your caster level be less than your HD is to multiclass into non-caster-level advancing classes, so the bonus is useful to multiclassed characters, but it could also be from taking feats like Mage Slayer or other effects that penalize caster level.

The specific example you chose is liable to generate some debate, because there is a separate common argument about exactly how you are supposed to treat Wild Mage; the argument, roughly, is between whether it has a flat penalty that you can recover (with something like Krau sigil or Practiced Spellcaster) and then have the +1d6 just be a variable bonus, or whether the penalty is actually (-3 + 1d6) rolled for every individual spell, so you actually have a variable modifier between -2 to +5. Caster level bonuses with capped effects interact with the two differently.

[Hunterx]

Again you think the ability works this way because of the PS and if PS was not out you would see it like me, than i used your math and you are saying Iam wrong again, well if I am using your math then you are all wrong.

In the ability there is nothing that says you have to multi class, this is the first thing so since you do not need to MC than why should you, Next the bonus is a +2 at level 2 great I used that too and only the +2, than i add in the wild mage and you say that the bonus is now higher than my character level if i roll over a 1 well that is not true either, since i would be a level 10 character and i can only roll as high as a 6 there is no way my bonus is higher than my character level, unless i get 2 per level of my character which you have all said i do not. So what is it your math or my math.

But since you can not keep it in your heads what is to be and you insist that you have to multi class again, show me exactly where is says that in the ability or the race in any way. Which you cant because it is not there.

So with that i can only conclude that you have little to no idea what you are talking about.

[Hunterx]

I'll admit I've been having some difficulty following the thread of actual arguments in here, but I don't think anybody is saying you have to multiclass to get the bonus from the sigil - they're saying the bonus you get from it cannot exceed your HD, so if your caster level is equal to your HD already then there is no benefit. (This seems to be something you strenuously disagree with, and I don't think it's worth trying to change your mind - just attempting to clarify the discussion.) The most common way to have your caster level be less than your HD is to multiclass into non-caster-level advancing classes, so the bonus is useful to multiclassed characters, but it could also be from taking feats like Mage Slayer or other effects that penalize caster level.

The specific example you chose is liable to generate some debate, because there is a separate common argument about exactly how you are supposed to treat Wild Mage; the argument, roughly, is between whether it has a flat penalty that you can recover (with something like Krau sigil or Practiced Spellcaster) and then have the +1d6 just be a variable bonus, or whether the penalty is actually (-3 + 1d6) rolled for every individual spell, so you actually have a variable modifier between -2 to +5. Caster level bonuses with capped effects interact with the two differently.

This is not even close to the truth, it gives you a +1 bonus and a +2 at level 2 so if you are level 2 your caster level is 4, the bonus is a +2 which does not exceed your HD so the bonus applies. I do not see how this is so hard to see, the bonus of your level it is clear as day

Wild Magic: A wild mage casts spells differently from any other arcane spellcaster. She reduces her caster level by 3 for all spells she casts from now on. However, every time she casts a spell, her use of wild magic adds 1d6 to her adjusted caster level. For example, an 8th-level sorcerer/1st-level wild mage has a base caster level of 6th, not 9th, but her actual caster level varies from 7th to 12th for every spell she casts. Caster level affects all level-based variables of a spell, including spell penetration checks.

Ok this is pretty clear as well you first lower your caster level

Even the example gives you this,

So Krau Duskblade has a caster level 7. 5 levels of wild mage is caster level 12 -3 from the 12 is 9 +1d6 for a base of 10 or on a max roll. there should be no debate about this at all it is right there in black and white just like the ability,

It gives you a +2 at level 2 since it is not greater than your HD and is equal you get the +2 when you go to level 3 you still get the +2 since it is not greater than your HD 3. This is using the math they gave me. I think you get a third level but whatever. It still gives you the bonus that is NOT LIKE PS. There is 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000 talk about multi classing there is not even an example so.

[AvatarVecna]

No you both insist that you have to multi class and you do not have to do such a thing. SO since you truly have no idea how this ability realy works and you think it works like a feat. I will say good bye because you both are nuts.

Learn the game learn the abilities than come talk when you have a clearer picture of what the truth is because all you are doing is trying to handicap a player if they use that race and sigil because you think it is to strong.

There are far far far more power things than that and you are both just close minded to it because you can not see what is as clear as water to others.

Elsewhere in the playground, in a 3.P game, I'm spamming Miracle from at-will cantrip slots that auto-beat SR. This piddly little 'trick' of yours is a weak waste of time compared to the shenanigans going on in that game. I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion because I'm scared of the possibilities, I'm disagreeing with your conclusion because I'm reading the ability.

Let us suppose that I agree with you that the cap imposed by this ability is a cap on the size of the bonus provided (and this ability is essentially "+1 CL at level 1, and then +2 CL at level 2). That does not imply that the bonus continues growing by RAW.

The size of the bonus is "+1 at level 1, +2 at level 2" but the pattern does not continue past that, so you don't get any bigger a bonus than +2. Period. Imagine if the Skill Focus feat said "select one skill; you gain a +3 bonus to this skill (to a maximum of your character level)". That would be a stupid way to word the feat, but a literal reading of the feat would indicate we get +1 at lvl 1, +2 at lvl 2, and +3 at lvl 3 or higher. The ability is written poorly, and the poor wroting means that this ability amounts to a flat CL boost with no caveats, but that doesn't mean it's therefore a variable CL boost.

[Hunterx]

Elsewhere in the playground, in a 3.P game, I'm spamming Miracle from at-will cantrip slots that auto-beat SR. This piddly little 'trick' of yours is a weak waste of time compared to the shenanigans going on in that game. I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion because I'm scared of the possibilities, I'm disagreeing with your conclusion because I'm reading the ability.

Let us suppose that I agree with you that the cap imposed by this ability is a cap on the size of the bonus provided (and this ability is essentially "+1 CL at level 1, and then +2 CL at level 2). That does not imply that the bonus continues growing by RAW.

The size of the bonus is "+1 at level 1, +2 at level 2" but the pattern does not continue past that, so you don't get any bigger a bonus than +2. Period. Imagine if the Skill Focus feat said "select one skill; you gain a +3 bonus to this skill (to a maximum of your character level)". That would be a stupid way to word the feat, but a literal reading of the feat would indicate we get +1 at lvl 1, +2 at lvl 2, and +3 at lvl 3 or higher. The ability is written poorly, and the poor wroting means that this ability amounts to a flat CL boost with no caveats, but that doesn't mean it's therefore a variable CL boost.

If you look at the math in my example i used only the +2 bonus. But they are saying you have to multi class to get the bonus and you have to do no such thing

[Remuko]

One doesnt need to multiclass for the races ability to work, and class with less than full casting naturally will have a caster level lower than their HD which it will help with!

[MoogleMcGee]

If you look at the math in my example i used only the +2 bonus. But they are saying you have to multi class to get the bonus and you have to do no such thing

You are correct. You do not need to multicast to get the bonus. However because your a pure caster class, your caster level is equal to your class level and thus your character level, you won't gain any benefit from the bonus because it would push your caster level beyond your character level.

[Deophaun]

Not to mention if you could change direction midcharge it would make the Drunken Master's Corkscrew Charge ability kind of redundant dont you think?
Not sure how. As A) The Drunken Master doesn't have such an ability and B) Corkscrew Rush, which it does have, makes no mention of being able to turn or change directions. It simply gives you a free bull rush that stuns opponents.

As for abilities that actually do let you turn mid-charge, I've never seen one implemented as they were written. Take twisted charge. It lets you make a 90-degree turn during a charge, but all other restrictions still apply. OK. So, what are those restrictions? Well, you must move directly towards you target, and you must have an unblocked path from your starting square to your end square. Doesn't touch those. Apparently it's a skill trick that's only use is against someone with AJ? Same thing with Fleet of Foot. Useless out of the box unless targeting someone that's moved during the charge. No one would take it if it was run as written, even if you couldn't already pursue someone who had moved.

But, as I've said, I've never seen it implemented as it was written. Instead, it's implemented as giving you a mid-point square that must meet the requirements of a charge from your starting square and allows you to turn 90-degrees and continue the charge to your target as if the mid-point were your starting square. Much, much more flexible and useful.

[AvatarVecna]

If you look at the math in my example i used only the +2 bonus. But they are saying you have to multi class to get the bonus and you have to do no such thing

First of all, a quick clarification:


Lets try this a different way

You are an Illumian wizard Level 1 you do you have the Krau sigil what level do you cast your spells at?


Under a literal reading of the text, I'm inclined to say that you'd cast your spells at a caster level of 2.

But that's because the "(up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level)." is really vaguely written.

RAI, I think it's supposed to mean that you can't have a CL boost higher than your character level but RAW it's not as clear.

No they're not. They're saying that's the designer intention, but that it's not the Rules As Written, and that I think all three of us can agree - the designers intended this as a way to support Illumians being multiclass characters, but accidentally wrote it poorly so it's instead a flat CL boost. However, we (excluding you this time) believe that following the strict letter of the rule, the bonus is +1 or +2, but never bigger than +2, and there's text stating that the bonus is capped at your character level.

A level cap is like a speed limit: it's not telling you the exact speed you should go, but rather telling you the maximum speed you're allowed to go legally. One of the results of speed limits is that often people will work to match the speed limit exactly, while some will push beyond that limit if they think they can get away with it. The problem is (to continue the metaphor) you're driving a car with only first and second gear; in first gear, you can go 10 kph, and in second gear, you can go 20 kph; if this pattern explicitly continued, and your car possessed a third gear, you could theoretically go 30 kph...but your car does not possess a third gear, so it cannot go faster than 20 kph.

Some people will go with Rules As Written even when they're dumb (this is the common assumption on forums like this, since we don't have a DM to adjudicate); some people will go with Rules As Intended, or Rules As Interpreted, or Rules As Investigated, which more or less amounts to people looking at the rules and thinking "what's did the designer intend for this to do" or "what's a balanced way to interpret this rule". Here's the piece of advice, though: if your argument for a particular mechanical interaction is dependent on a strict reading of the rules that is blatantly spitting in the face of designer intention, game balance, or both, you cannot later include a step in your combo that would involve pleading with the DM to reasonably interpret the rule in this way, because they'll remember that you used legalese to override common sense just two minutes ago and will delight in shutting you down with the RAW.

TL;DR If your argument ever looks like this...


Step 1: Convince DM that by RAW, kobolds are true dragons and operate under those rules.

Step 2: Convince the DM to interpret the rules so that kobolds don't count as true dragons for negative effects, because come on kobolds are only technically dragons.

...your argument will fail. Case in point...



Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Step 1: Convince the DM to only accept a literal interpretation of the bolded part.

Step 2: Convince the DM to not accept a literal interpretation of the underlined part.

In answer to your question about the Wild Mage build: if we are using a literal interpretation of the racial ability, and it's basically just +1 (or +2) to CL, then the build you put forth would have CL 9, and would add 1d6 to CL whenever they cast spells.

[AvatarVecna]

A level cap is like a speed limit: it's not telling you the exact speed you should go, but rather telling you the maximum speed you're allowed to go legally. One of the results of speed limits is that often people will work to match the speed limit exactly, while some will push beyond that limit if they think they can get away with it. The problem is (to continue the metaphor) you're driving a car with only first and second gear; in first gear, you can go 10 kph, and in second gear, you can go 20 kph; if this pattern explicitly continued, and your car possessed a third gear, you could theoretically go 30 kph...but your car does not possess a third gear, so it cannot go faster than 20 kph.

To use a more D&D example about visible patterns and their continuation, let's look at the monk: a monk's unarmed strike deals 1d6 damage at 1st level; at Monk 4, this improves to 1d8; at Monk 8, this improves to 1d10; at Monk 12, this improves to 2d6; at Monk 16, this improves to 2d8; at Monk 20, this improves to 2d10. Now, the existing pattern is easy to lay out: it goes 6-8-10-6-8-10, and 1-1-1-2-2-2; there's clearly a pattern going on there. Now here, players might disagree about what the pattern is - some might say that every time you switch from 10 to 6, you increase the number of dice by 1, while some might say that every time you switch from 10 to 6, you double the number of dice. The latter argument makes sense as improvements - the first intepretation would say the next step in the pattern is 3d6, which has a slightly higher minimum, but a lower average and a lower maximum, so 3d8 isn't really an improvement over 2d10, and this problem just gets worse (compare 4d6 to 3d10, 5d6 to 4d10, and so on). However, in favor of the first interpretation, dice doubling can get quite out of hand rather quickly, with total damage doubling every 12 levels, a Monk 40 would be looking at 8d8 base damage, far more than basically any other meleer gets! The second interpretation points out that they're still falling way behind caster damage and rogue damage totals, and that the solution should be to make barbarians and fighters deal more, not to make the monk deal less.

And then a third player bitch-slaps them both with a DMG and points out that epic monks do not continue advancing the size of their unarmed strike at all. It doesn't matter that there's two separate patterns that can be sussed out from the existing damage changes, the book doesn't say the pattern continues...so it doesn't.

[ColorBlindNinja]

And then a third player bitch-slaps them both with a DMG and points out that epic monks do not continue advancing the size of their unarmed strike at all. It doesn't matter that there's two separate patterns that can be sussed out from the existing damage changes, the book doesn't say the pattern continues...so it doesn't.

I am now more convinced than ever that someone on the D&D 3.X design team had a deep hatred of monks. :smallfrown:

Did a martial artist kill a young game designer's parent before his/her eyes and thus they swore vengeance on them? :smallwink:

[Hunterx]

First of all, a quick clarification:





No they're not. They're saying that's the designer intention, but that it's not the Rules As Written, and that I think all three of us can agree - the designers intended this as a way to support Illumians being multiclass characters, but accidentally wrote it poorly so it's instead a flat CL boost. However, we (excluding you this time) believe that following the strict letter of the rule, the bonus is +1 or +2, but never bigger than +2, and there's text stating that the bonus is capped at your character level.

A level cap is like a speed limit: it's not telling you the exact speed you should go, but rather telling you the maximum speed you're allowed to go legally. One of the results of speed limits is that often people will work to match the speed limit exactly, while some will push beyond that limit if they think they can get away with it. The problem is (to continue the metaphor) you're driving a car with only first and second gear; in first gear, you can go 10 kph, and in second gear, you can go 20 kph; if this pattern explicitly continued, and your car possessed a third gear, you could theoretically go 30 kph...but your car does not possess a third gear, so it cannot go faster than 20 kph.

Some people will go with Rules As Written even when they're dumb (this is the common assumption on forums like this, since we don't have a DM to adjudicate); some people will go with Rules As Intended, or Rules As Interpreted, or Rules As Investigated, which more or less amounts to people looking at the rules and thinking "what's did the designer intend for this to do" or "what's a balanced way to interpret this rule". Here's the piece of advice, though: if your argument for a particular mechanical interaction is dependent on a strict reading of the rules that is blatantly spitting in the face of designer intention, game balance, or both, you cannot later include a step in your combo that would involve pleading with the DM to reasonably interpret the rule in this way, because they'll remember that you used legalese to override common sense just two minutes ago and will delight in shutting you down with the RAW.

TL;DR If your argument ever looks like this...



...your argument will fail. Case in point...



In answer to your question about the Wild Mage build: if we are using a literal interpretation of the racial ability, and it's basically just +1 (or +2) to CL, then the build you put forth would have CL 9, and would add 1d6 to CL whenever they cast spells.

1 You do not know the intent of the writer at all so stop thinking you do. For all you know it was written the correct way, since you are not the writer you do not know and you are bending to what you think is correct.

This is the issue to many DM have instead of taking the wording for what it is they think they know better and change things for them to better understand.

As Raw it is a +2 to caster level and i believe the intent was for exactly that. The scaling level and max level of your character level i think was an error. But i do think the intent for a +2 at level 2 is exactly correct.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The scaling level and max level of your character level i think was an error. But i do think the intent for a +2 at level 2 is exactly correct.

Cite some text to prove that it scales. Not the "up to your character level" bit, a solid quote that demonstrates it scales.

Otherwise admit that you have no case.

[AvatarVecna]

I am now more convinced than ever that someone on the D&D 3.X design team had a deep hatred of monks. :smallfrown:

Did a martial artist kill a young game designer's parent before his/her eyes and thus they swore vengeance on them? :smallwink:

Based on everything, I less think that there was an anti-monk vendetta as much as "they gave it a class feature at every level, and thought that made it so OP, but didn't realize that there wasn't as much synergy between those abilities as they thought there was".

EDIT: So basically, I'm exercising Hanlon's Razor on this one.


1 You do not know the intent of the writer at all so stop thinking you do. For all you know it was written the correct way, since you are not the writer you do not know and you are bending to what you think is correct.

This is the issue to many DM have instead of taking the wording for what it is they think they know better and change things for them to better understand.

As Raw it is a +2 to caster level and i believe the intent was for exactly that. The scaling level and max level of your character level i think was an error. But i do think the intent for a +2 at level 2 is exactly correct.

+2 at level 2 is what you, me, and everybody agrees on. What's also very obvious is that, if this ability was intended to just be "CL +1 at first level, and CL +2 at 2nd level or higher", it's written really weirdly, and that's why people tend to interpret the rules and try to suss out designer intentions in cases like this. But I don't disagree on the RAW - the RAW is very clearly "CL +1 at first level, and CL +2 at 2nd level or higher". The part where we seemed to disagree before was about whether the cap referencing caster level means that the bonus continues getting bigger. But since you seem to have accepted that nobody will agree with that interpretation of yours, we are now all on the same page.

[AvatarVecna]

Cite some text to prove that it scales. Not the "up to your character level" bit, a solid quote that demonstrates it scales.

Otherwise admit that you have no case.

Literally in the text you just quoted, they admit that thinking it scales with level was an error, but that they're insistent that +2 CL at level 2 is intended - and, IIRC, that's explicitly called out in the ability description elsewhere in the race, so that is very much the RAW on the matter. They've already dropped the issue that we all disagreed on, and we all seem to be on the same page that it's just a flat bonus at this point. Please drop it?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Based on everything, I less think that there was an anti-monk vendetta as much as "they gave it a class feature at every level, and thought that made it so OP, but didn't realize that there wasn't as much synergy between those abilities as they thought there was".

Well, I was (mostly) joking. :smalltongue: If that wasn't obvious. :smallredface:

It never ceases to amaze me that people think the Monk class is OP at all.

EDIT:


Literally in the text you just quoted, they admit that thinking it scales with level was an error, but that they're insistent that +2 CL at level 2 is intended - and, IIRC, that's explicitly called out in the ability description elsewhere in the race, so that is very much the RAW on the matter. They've already dropped the issue that we all disagreed on, and we all seem to be on the same page that it's just a flat bonus at this point. Please drop it?

I thought the OP was continuing to insist that the caster level boost scales with character level (in other words, it becomes +3 at level 3).

If I was mistaken I apologize.

[Hunterx]

Cite some text to prove that it scales. Not the "up to your character level" bit, a solid quote that demonstrates it scales.

Otherwise admit that you have no case.

show some text that says it does not scale and you will have a case if you cant you don't

Now i said for the 5th time that a +2 seems fair even though i think it scales.

The maximum of the characters level is the maximum that the bonus can be so scaling makes sense period full stop because it is the only way you can get the characters level.


yes you mistook

I said a flat rate of +2 is fine, Now it is the whole multi class BS because there is no reason what so ever that it has to be a multi class. and that you get a +2 at level 2 to caster levels.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Now i said for the 5th time that a +2 seems fair even though i think it scales.

The maximum of the characters level is the maximum that the bonus can be so scaling makes sense period full stop because it is the only way you can get the characters level.

To clarify, by scale you mean, what?

That at level 3 the caster level raises from +2 to +3?



show some text that says it does not scale and you will have a case if you cant you don't

That's not how RAW works.

[Hunterx]

To clarify, by scale you mean, what?

That at level 3 the caster level raises from +2 to +3?




That's not how RAW works.


yes


and yes it is if you can not show and i can not show than it is

[AvatarVecna]

yes


and yes it is if you can not show and i can not show than it is

That's not how games work, or bonuses. If a mechanic giving you a bonus doesn't explicitly say it scales, it doesn't scale, period. If a mechanic giving you a bonus explicitly says that it scales, and then specifies exactly how it scales, that's how it scales. It doesn't matter if you can see a theoretical pattern in the bonus provided, because you only get to extrapolate out the pattern if the game explicitly says you do.

This is the exact reason why I brought up the example of the monk's unarmed strike: it doesn't matter that there is a clear pattern that you could continue into epic levels, the book specifies what class features the monk possesses that continue improving in epic, and unarmed strike progression isn't on the list. Similarly, just because you have an ability that says "you get +1 at level 1, and get +2 at level 2", you don't get to extrapolate that out to mean "you get +3 at level 3" unless the ability explicitly says you do.

Every other mechanic in the game that works like this isn't worded the way this ability is worded. You're just wrong.

[ColorBlindNinja]

yes

:sigh:



and yes it is if you can not show and i can not show than it is

No. That is not how RAW works. Unless the scaling is explicitly stated, it doesn't scale.


If you are going to continue to insist that this is the case without textual evidence, we're done here.

[AvatarVecna]

Additionally, something earlier in the thread that I very much disagree with but wasn't relevant at the time: I cannot personally claim to understand designer intentions perfectly but I and others can get hints at designer intention by looking at errata and FAQ - which, yes, isn't RAW, but this isn't about the legalese, this is about intentions, and errata/FAQ is kinda like jazz: it's about the changes they don't make. If the designers had intended for this racial ability to be +3 at 3rd level, they would've errata'd the book and rewritten that ability to make it more clear, such as they way they write abilities like the human's skill point bonus, or the Improved Toughness feat; instead, this is a flat bonus (like the elf bonus to listen) that gets an explicit and slight upgrade once, and then no explicit upgrade ever again.

[XionUnborn01]

show some text that says it does not scale and you will have a case if you cant you don't

Now i said for the 5th time that a +2 seems fair even though i think it scales.

The maximum of the characters level is the maximum that the bonus can be so scaling makes sense period full stop because it is the only way you can get the characters level.


yes you mistook

I said a flat rate of +2 is fine, Now it is the whole multi class BS because there is no reason what so ever that it has to be a multi class. and that you get a +2 at level 2 to caster levels.

You dont have to multi class, it's just an easy way to explain the bonus. No one insisted multi classing was required. You can be a paladino's and get the bonus because a paladino's normally has a caster level of half their class level. Make an illumian paladino's level 12 and you'll have a caster level of 8.

[Remuko]

You dont have to multi class, it's just an easy way to explain the bonus. No one insisted multi classing was required. You can be a paladino's and get the bonus because a paladino's normally has a caster level of half their class level. Make an illumian paladino's level 12 and you'll have a caster level of 8.

Then take practiced spellcaster on top and bam lvl 12 with caster level 12!

[Hunterx]

Then take practiced spellcaster on top and bam lvl 12 with caster level 12!

Of Duskblade 7 Wildmage 3
With Krau: and bam instant minimum caster level 10 and possible caster level 15 o and throw on Arcane Thesis and cast spells at CL 12 minimum and up to CL 17.

[DeTess]

Of Duskblade 7 Wildmage 3
With Krau: and bam instant minimum caster level 10 and possible caster level 15 o and throw on Arcane Thesis and cast spells at CL 12 minimum and up to CL 17.

Only for the one spell you applied Arcane thesis to though, and assuming a liberal reading of the Krau Sigil. Still, it can be fairly nice if you're building around optimizing one single spell.

[Hunterx]

Only for the one spell you applied Arcane thesis to though, and assuming a liberal reading of the Krau Sigil. Still, it can be fairly nice if you're building around optimizing one single spell.



Yes Vampiric touch

Looking at the feat in complete mage or arcane that adds 2d6 damage for necromancy spells with the cost of only 50 gold.

And there is no literal reading for Krau sigil needed, you do not need to be multi classed to get this to work for you. It is like arcane thesis only it is for every spell.

or even an under achiving spell caster

[CactusAir]

If you're just going to ignore what literally everyone else in the thread is telling you, why even bother posting?

[XionUnborn01]

If you're just going to ignore what literally everyone else in the thread is telling you, why even bother posting?

It's really interesting watching someone start a thread asking for clarification then aggressively defending the thing they're interpreting wrong.

[Hunterx]

If you're just going to ignore what literally everyone else in the thread is telling you, why even bother posting?

Because in this case they are wrong, ok it may not scale but it does not work like PS it is more like arcane thesis.

[JNAProductions]

Because in this case they are wrong, ok it may not scale but it does not work like PS it is more like arcane thesis.

You came in here checking to make sure you were right.

When pretty much everybody tells you that you weren't, it might make sense to reconsider your position.

[Hunterx]

You came in here checking to make sure you were right.

When pretty much everybody tells you that you weren't, it might make sense to reconsider your positions .

The clearification I was looking for was if it scaled. The +2 caster level is very clear.

There is no way in hell or any other place you can say you do not get the +2 caster levels, as it very very clearly says you get them. If you are going to ignore the second half of the ability and throw it away saying that was not the entent than, the first half were it says bonus to. Why not just rewrite to fit what you want it to be since your doing that any ways,. Which in turn makes you opinion wrong by a country mile.

[HouseRules]

The +3 is here:

Enhanced Power Sigils
( Races of Destiny, p. 152)

[Racial]

Your illumian power sigils are more powerful than normal.
Prerequisite
Illumian, two power sigils,

Benefit
The bonuses granted by each of your power sigils improve by 1.

Normal
Without this feat, the bonuses granted by each of your power sigils are equal to the number of power sigils you possess.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The +3 is here:

Is there a way to get more sigils, so that you can boost the bonuses higher?

[HouseRules]

Nope. 1 sigil when you are level 1, and 2 sigils when you have at least two levels in a single class.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Nope. 1 sigil when you are level 1, and 2 sigils when you have at least two levels in a single class.

Ah, too bad. :smallfrown:

[HouseRules]

Power Sigils (Su): In addition to the array of dimly glowing luminous sigils that orbits her head, a 1st-level illumian has a single brightly glowing power sigil that grants her certain bonuses (see below). A power sigil can be discerned from other sigils surrounding an illumian with a DC 10 Spot check, and identified with a DC 15 Knowledge (arcana) check. On attaining 2nd level in any class, an illumian gains a second different power sigil, and the bonus granted by each power sigil increases to +2. Depending on the combination of power sigils she chooses, an illumian gains one or more extra special abilities (see Illumian Words, below). The benefit of each power sigil is given below, along with the Common translation of each sigil's Illumian name.

It is limited to 2 because of the emphasized parts. Remove the word "second", and replace the "to +2" with "by +1" , and an Illumian could get all 6 sigils, but they would need 2 levels of 5 different classes.

[RoboEmperor]

+1 caster level. Fixed value. Does not scale up.
Up to a maximum. Means it scales down. So +0 or +1.
If the caster level scaled up and has a maximum, you'd be right. Just like Fireball.
But this doesn't scale up. Period. it's a fixed +1, and it has a maximum, which means it scales down. At level 2 it increases to +2 but again it's a flat +2 with a maximum.
In your interpretation there is literally no reason for that word "maximum" to exist in text. At all.

It doesn't matter how much you deny it. It is PS. If you argue like you did in this thread to your DM and managed to strong arm him into breaking the rules, sure. Just know that any campaign you complete with this Illumian is only because you cheated. And as this thread shows no one in this forum, or anyone for that matter, is gonna acknowledge you didn't cheat and ever consider using your character's build because it's illegal.

d&d is written in layman's language instead of lawyer language and you are trying to abuse this by picking it apart until it looks like something else. Just like a person arguing Shades replicates any conjuration spell of any spell list instead of just creation and summoning. Doesn't matter how much you want it to work that way, it doesn't.

The intent is clearly there that it is PS. There's no denying it. So go ahead and ignore it and warp the text so it suites your needs. Just don't deny that you're cheating.

[Hunterx]

+1 caster level. Fixed value. Does not scale up.
Up to a maximum. Means it scales down. So +0 or +1.
If the caster level scaled up and has a maximum, you'd be right. Just like Fireball.
But this doesn't scale up. Period. it's a fixed +1, and it has a maximum, which means it scales down. At level 2 it increases to +2 but again it's a flat +2 with a maximum.
In your interpretation there is literally no reason for that word "maximum" to exist in text. At all.

It doesn't matter how much you deny it. It is PS. If you argue like you did in this thread to your DM and managed to strong arm him into breaking the rules, sure. Just know that any campaign you complete with this Illumian is only because you cheated. And as this thread shows no one in this forum, or anyone for that matter, is gonna acknowledge you didn't cheat and ever consider using your character's build because it's illegal.

d&d is written in layman's language instead of lawyer language and you are trying to abuse this by picking it apart until it looks like something else. Just like a person arguing Shades replicates any conjuration spell of any spell list instead of just creation and summoning. Doesn't matter how much you want it to work that way, it doesn't.

The intent is clearly there that it is PS. There's no denying it. So go ahead and ignore it and warp the text so it suites your needs. Just don't deny that you're cheating.

Lets break this down step by step by step for the highly uneducated so that they may understand how this is not PS in any way shape or form.

First PS: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4.

This first part tell you exactly what you are going to get increase in your spellcasting to a +4


This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

This next part tell you exactly what you can not do, it says that this bonus can not increase your caster level beyond your HD. However the moment you take a noncaster level you can apply the bonus up to a +4. There is an example

For example, a human 5th-level cleric/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his cleric caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 HD).
If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his cleric caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 HD).

A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect. This does not affect your spells per day or spells known.

More stipulations that it has to go to one spellcaster or the other

It only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.

This tell you exactly what part of the spell it effects.


Now the sigil

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities

This tells you what you are getting a +1 bonus to caster levels for all spells and spell like abilities

(up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

This tell you the limit. up to the illumians character level.

So lets review shall we. PS tells you what you are getting a +4 Sigil tells you what you are getting +1

PS tells you that this can not increase your caster level past your HD
Sigil tells you, you get a bonus up to a maximum of your HD

PS tells you that if you multiclass you can gain the full effect
Sigil no such thing

PS if you more than one spellcaster you have to pick which spell caster this go to
Sigil no such thing

Now aside form them both telling you exactly what you are getting and exactly what the limit is on them how are they even close to being the same thing, There is nothing that even comes close. Even if it was like PS, which it is not, PS gives you a +4 to your caster level sigil would give you the following with how you are thinking.
Wizard 2 Fighter 2 Cleric 2 Rogue 2 Bard 2 Duskblade 2
So if it worked like PS, You would have
wiz 2 caster level 12 fighter 2 cleric 2 caster level 12 rogue 2 bard 2 caster level 12 duskblade 2 caster level 12

so the wizard would be casting lv 1 spells as a caster level 12, ckeric would be casting lv 1 spells as a caster level 12 bard casting lv1 spells as a caster level 12 and the duskblade level 1 spells at caster level 12.

Now if you add in PS to this because it is a feat and this is a racial ability. and you have 4 levels of non caster you could pick which one you wanted and be casting those spells as a level 16 whatever spellcaster you picked.

So in conclusion this is not like PS this gives you a +1 (+2 at level 2) to your caster levels period. I do believe the maximum to your character level was an over sight. However this is still giving you a +2 to your caster level no matter what caster class you are and branches to multi class casters.

This is not PS this is not intended to be PS this is not even close to PS.

[RoboEmperor]

Lets break this down step by step by step for the highly uneducated so that they may understand how this is not PS in any way shape or form.

I understand your frustration. I do, because I used to Rule Lawyer like you do. I used to say the errata for Water Devotion did not apply to Water Devotion because the general rule for Devotion feats overcomes the Errata's attempt to nerf the feat. But guess how many people accepted that argument? Grand total of 0 despite being technically correct by RAW lawyering.

In any case, by your own admission in your interpretation "maximum" makes no sense because there is literally no scenario where it wouldn't give you its full value. So by this alone your interpretation is not correct. Again d&d is written in layman's language so multiple interpretations to the same thing is rampant. So it's up to us to find the correct interpretation instead of dissecting something until you get what you want.

Since you took the time to write a wall of text, let me try my hand at one too.

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Turns into
boosts caster level by 1
boosts caster level up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level.

Ergo a Cleric 10 has caster level 10 therefore gets no bonus from the sigil. A cleric9/fighter1 with an orange ioun stone has caster level 10, character level 10, so he gets +0 from the sigil as well.

Now your interpretation is this
You get a +1 bonus to caster level
The maximum bonus to caster level is equal to the illumian's character level.

Now if we assume both interpretations are "valid" by reading the sentence in different ways, which is the one true interpretation? From the start you said you get +1 bonus to caster level per illumian level and therefore this sigil doubles your caster level. Then you changed your tune to always gets +1 and the word maximum is redundant, needless, and makes no sense.

So we have one interpretation where no word is useless, and one interpretation where it's very confusing and has useless words. Which is more likely to be correct?

We say it's similar to PS not because of its RAW wording, but in intent. This sigil lets you regain lost caster levels from multiclassing which is why we keep bringing in PS because that's what PS does.

The "maximum" applies to your "caster level", not "bonus to caster level"

[Hunterx]

I understand your frustration. I do, because I used to Rule Lawyer like you do. I used to say the errata for Water Devotion did not apply to Water Devotion because the general rule for Devotion feats overcomes the Errata's attempt to nerf the feat. But guess how many people accepted that argument? Grand total of 0 despite being technically correct by RAW lawyering.

In any case, by your own admission in your interpretation "maximum" makes no sense because there is literally no scenario where it wouldn't give you its full value. So by this alone your interpretation is not correct. Again d&d is written in layman's language so multiple interpretations to the same thing is rampant. So it's up to us to find the correct interpretation instead of dissecting something until you get what you want.

Since you took the time to write a wall of text, let me try my hand at one too.

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

Turns into
boosts caster level by 1
boosts caster level up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level.

Ergo a Cleric 10 has caster level 10 therefore gets no bonus from the sigil. A cleric9/fighter1 with an orange ioun stone has caster level 10, character level 10, so he gets +0 from the sigil as well.

Now your interpretation is this
You get a +1 bonus to caster level
The maximum bonus to caster level is equal to the illumian's character level.

Now if we assume both interpretations are "valid" by reading the sentence in different ways, which is the one true interpretation? From the start you said you get +1 bonus to caster level per illumian level and therefore this sigil doubles your caster level. Then you changed your tune to always gets +1 and the word maximum is redundant, needless, and makes no sense.

So we have one interpretation where no word is useless, and one interpretation where it's very confusing and has useless words. Which is more likely to be correct?

We say it's similar to PS not because of its RAW wording, but in intent. This sigil lets you regain lost caster levels from multiclassing which is why we keep bringing in PS because that's what PS does.

The "maximum" applies to your "caster level", not "bonus to caster level"

You would be 100% correct if there was not a key word. That key word is bonus. Bonus the pure meaning of the word mean an addition to. So a +1 bonus is an addition to what you have. There is no other intent except this and since you are not the writer you can not say other wise. I full believe that even if you were to have it give you a bonus of the character level it still would not make a difference as most spells have a capstone for damage and what not.

Second stop assuming it dose nothing and is simply an uneducated guess at something. Take what it says at face value as that is the way it is writte. Stop making up stuff to make it fit what you want. Read what it says and except it, don't look deeper because there is nothing because if there was than they would have erratad it.

[MoogleMcGee]

Second stop assuming it dose nothing and is simply an uneducated guess at something. Take what it says at face value as that is the way it is writte. Stop making up stuff to make it fit what you want. Read what it says and except it, don't look deeper because there is nothing because if there was than they would have erratad it.

But the only one here not taking it at face value is you. Everyone else has explained how it works and they only use practiced spellcaster as an example because that is the closest example to the racial trait in question. I really feel this is a failure to communicate brought on by a lack of understanding of the English language.

Honestly I think a mod needs to lock this thread before it gets anymore toxic than it already is.

[Crake]

But the only one here not taking it at face value is you. Everyone else has explained how it works and they only use practiced spellcaster as an example because that is the closest example to the racial trait in question. I really feel this is a failure to communicate brought on by a lack of understanding of the English language.

Honestly I think a mod needs to lock this thread before it gets anymore toxic than it already is.

I'm honestly surprised it got to 8 pages and still going strong. I think, if after 8 pages OP still isn't convinced, then he's irrationally attached to his reading, so trying to reason with logic is a fruitless endeavour.

[Florian]

I'm honestly surprised it got to 8 pages and still going strong. I think, if after 8 pages OP still isn't convinced, then he's irrationally attached to his reading, so trying to reason with logic is a fruitless endeavour.

Hehe, but it makes for a fun read. I'm visualizing the whole discussion like what happens when once comic book mad scientist tried to defend his theory against negative peer reviews and goes on railing, ranting a threatening to destroy the world.....

But the threat had one positive aspect so far: Talking about charge and interrupt.

I find it interesting that the 3.5E designers could make up their mind whether combat is continuous or simultaneous and what a combat round now represents. When they came up with the clarifications and FAQs on how interrupts work, I immediately thought about the resolution chains of MtG and found that to be absolutely stupid.

[HouseRules]

It's a RAW vs RAI argument.

The RAW says that caster level is not capped by character level. If fact, the relation is only addressed in Practiced Spellcaster feat as a specific rule.

The RAI says that caster level is capped by character level. They take the Practiced Spellcaster specific rule and enforce it generally.

[Hunterx]

But the only one here not taking it at face value is you. Everyone else has explained how it works and they only use practiced spellcaster as an example because that is the closest example to the racial trait in question. I really feel this is a failure to communicate brought on by a lack of understanding of the English language.

Honestly I think a mod needs to lock this thread before it gets anymore toxic than it already is.

I understand the English language just fine thank you and i know what the word bonus means. This is the key word, if you look at this word and use this word got what it is than you realize this is an addition to, not an addition to if you have another class but a pure addition to.

[Hunterx]

It's a RAW vs RAI argument.

The RAW says that caster level is not capped by character level. If fact, the relation is only addressed in Practiced Spellcaster feat as a specific rule.

The RAI says that caster level is capped by character level. They take the Practiced Spellcaster specific rule and enforce it generally.

I would agree it is RAW vs RAI, and I am following RAW as our game is a RAW based game.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

I would agree it is RAW vs RAI, and I am following RAW as our game is a RAW based game.

No, you're twisting it to what you want it to be. No where in that sigil description it it WRITTEN "+1 PER caster level."

[ColorBlindNinja]

No, you're twisting it to what you want it to be. No where in that sigil description it it WRITTEN "+1 PER caster level."

At this point, why bother arguing with him?

[HouseRules]

Summary from Page 3 to Page 8:

ColorBlindNinja found that I made a slight mistake between Caster Level and Spell Level for Improved Sigil (Krau), and I made my change.

Hunterx learns that the bonus no longer grows per level.

I try to distinguish Caster Level and Class Level (for the purpose of Spell Level access).

Psychoalpha Trolled Hunterx by calling Hunterx a Troll. Post #73 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23635502&postcount=73)

ExLibrisMortis also tries to remind the difference between Spell Level and Caster Level.

Many people (Deophaun #93 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23635502&postcount=93) and #97 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23635502&postcount=97), DwarvenWarCorgi #103 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23635502&postcount=103), AvatarVecna 105 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23635502&postcount=105) and 108 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23635502&postcount=108), RoboEmperor #107 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23635502&postcount=107), XionUnborn01 #112 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23635502&postcount=112)) keeps trolling upon "bonus is per level" instead of "fixed bonus" of +1, +2, and possibly +3 with Enhanced Power Sigil Feat.

While Hunterx knows it is fixed, Hunterx wishes it would scale by level, and those people are trolling on that wish comment.

Edit: What we need to do is try to get Hunterx to confirm the knowledge the difference between

Caster Level and Class Level (for the purpose of Spell Level access) an
Spell Level increase does not give Caster Level increase

[RoboEmperor]

Many people (Deophaun, DwarvenWarCorgi, AvatarVecna, RoboEmperor, XionUnborn01) keeps trolling upon "bonus is per level" instead of "fixed bonus" of +1, +2, and possibly +3 with Enhanced Power Sigil Feat.

Quote where I said it was per level instead of fixed. Because it didn't happen.

[Hunterx]

No, you're twisting it to what you want it to be. No where in that sigil description it it WRITTEN "+1 PER caster level."


Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

up to a maximum of the character level how is this not each level again ?

If your character level is 1 you get 1 if your character level is 10 you get 10 but since at level 2 it makes the bonus a +2 you get 20 at 10. This really is not that hard to see, and since you get a new character level each and every single time you gain enough xp points, that is how you get per level. If your levels are in casters that makes it a +2 per caster level.

Read what i said and do not try to twist my words. If you truly can not except the fact that you do not understand the key words in this there is this thing called the internet look it up and see what they mean.

Until you look up these keys words. BONUS maximum value equal level than i can not help you understand this.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

up to a maximum of the character level how is this not each level again ?

If your character level is 1 you get 1 if your character level is 10 you get 10 but since at level 2 it makes the bonus a +2 you get 20 at 10. This really is not that hard to see, and since you get a new character level each and every single time you gain enough xp points, that is how you get per level. If your levels are in casters that makes it a +2 per caster level.

Read what i said and do not try to twist my words. If you truly can not except the fact that you do not understand the key words in this there is this thing called the internet look it up and see what they mean.

Until you look up these keys words. BONUS maximum value equal level than i can not help you understand this.

How can you still be on about this?! Several posters have explained to you this isn't how the ability works, RAW or RAI.

[JNAProductions]

So, if I have the following:

"The bonus is equal to +1"
"The bonus may not be higher than your character level"

What's the way to satisfy BOTH of those qualifiers?

[RoboEmperor]

So, if I have the following:

"The bonus is equal to +1"
"The bonus may not be higher than your character level"

What's the way to satisfy BOTH of those qualifiers?

That's his argument. The Bonus is always +1 or +2 regardless of whether you're single classed or multiclassed.

[JNAProductions]

That's his argument. The Bonus is always +1 or +2 regardless of whether you're single classed or multiclassed.

Read his last post. He still seems to think that it's PER character level, not MAX of character level.

And I'm trying to do this one step at a time.

[RoboEmperor]

Read his last post. He still seems to think that it's PER character level, not MAX of character level.

And I'm trying to do this one step at a time.

I think he's refering to the sigil upgrading to a +2 when you reach 2nd level. Not a per level thing.

[JNAProductions]

Krau ("magic"): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian's character level).

up to a maximum of the character level how is this not each level again ?

If your character level is 1 you get 1 if your character level is 10 you get 10 but since at level 2 it makes the bonus a +2 you get 20 at 10. This really is not that hard to see, and since you get a new character level each and every single time you gain enough xp points, that is how you get per level. If your levels are in casters that makes it a +2 per caster level.

Read what i said and do not try to twist my words. If you truly can not except the fact that you do not understand the key words in this there is this thing called the internet look it up and see what they mean.

Until you look up these keys words. BONUS maximum value equal level than i can not help you understand this.

I bolded the relevant bit.

[Hunterx]

Summary from Page 3 to Page 8:

ColorBlindNinja found that I made a slight mistake between Caster Level and Spell Level for Improved Sigil (Krau), and I made my change.

Hunterx learns that the bonus no longer grows per level.

I try to distinguish Caster Level and Class Level (for the purpose of Spell Level access).

Psychoalpha Trolled Hunterx by calling Hunterx a Troll.

ExLibrisMortis also tries to remind the difference between Spell Level and Caster Level.

Many people (Deophaun, DwarvenWarCorgi, AvatarVecna, RoboEmperor, XionUnborn01) keeps trolling upon "bonus is per level" instead of "fixed bonus" of +1, +2, and possibly +3 with Enhanced Power Sigil Feat.



Edit: What we need to do is try to get Hunterx to confirm the knowledge the difference between

Caster Level and Class Level (for the purpose of Spell Level access) an
Spell Level increase does not give Caster Level increase



There is a difference between caster level and class level unless your class is a caster. If your class is a caster your caster level is your class level, with a couple of changes.
Ie feats and what not.

So if you are a Rogue 10 assassin 4 your caster level is 4 because the class you get the spells from is a level 4. If you have the practice spellcaster feat your caster level is 8 because you get the 4 from the assassin and since you are Rogue 10 you get 4 of those levels to your assassin spells.

If you are an illumian rogue 10 assassin 4 with Krau, you are a caster level of 28 because the max you can get is a bonus of your character level. However I have admitted that this is a little crazy as good and as nice as it would be. The reason it is would be your character level which is 14 but at level 2 it increases the bonus to a +2 so 2x14 is 28. Again this would be very nice but is a little crazy. But the character would only be casting level 1 spells 3+bonus spells and level 2 1+bonus spells at these levels.

Now lets take a look at the assassin spells at level 1
Cast Lv 1 3 cast Lv2 1
Spells known: Lv 1 4 Lv2 3
list of spells.
lv1 disguise self, 1 standard action lasts 10 min/level well that is 280 min with my version that is 4.6 hours in game time.

detect poison, 1 standard action duration instant so no effect

feather fall, 1 standard action duration 1 round per level so 28 rounds.

ghost sound, 1 standard 1 round per level 28 levels DC is 10 +0+mod for x

jump, 1 standard 1 min per level 28 min +10 to jump

obscuring mist, 1 round 1 min per level 28 min 20' radius

sleep, 1 round 1 min per level 4 HD of creatures. DC 10+1+Mod

true strike. you +20 on next attack no duration

So using this as an example there are very few spells that have scaling that deal a mess load of damage that do not have a max amount of damage. The DC for the spell never goes up with caster level it is always the same 10 +level of the spell+Mod+x (feats and what not)

Since Krau gives you a +1 (+2) to caster level for spells and spell like abilities the duration the damage area and range are the only things that are effected. The DC for most spells are so easily covered my most creatures that it is not even funny and if the DM has made NPCs they are more than likely going to save vs these spells any ways.

So who cares if the wizard can cast mage armor for 28 hours big deal, there is no way in any hell that the math I have presented is OP or unbalanced without digging for some crazy ass spells. The most common spells used by a wiz or x are not going to over run the table being cast at higher levels for duration damage area and range, any more than then spell casters do.

However I understand how crazy these numbers look and I do think they did nto mean to put character level there and this is the issue causing the problem.

[RoboEmperor]

I bolded the relevant bit.

Alright, nevermind then. I am blind. Continue brave sir.

[JNAProductions]

So where does it say "Per"?

If it said "Per character level," you would be correct. But it doesn't. It says, in two clauses:

"The bonus is +1" (This later improves to +2, but the number is otherwise static.)
"The bonus may not be higher than your character level"

[Hunterx]

How can you still be on about this?! Several posters have explained to you this isn't how the ability works, RAW or RAI.

RAW is exactly how it is as written, you all are using RAI.

Look at exactly what it says do not think you know what the writer was trying to say see what they did say and except that period full stop. If you want to use RAI in your game go ahead and use it, but RAW is our game and as RAW states to a max of the character level that is true. I have shown how this is not that bad even if you get it as I have stated and that it is no OP as you all claim.

It just makes spells last longer have a greater range and area which is some times capped do more damage but does not effect their DC.

[Hunterx]

So where does it say "Per"?

If it said "Per character level," you would be correct. But it doesn't. It says, in two clauses:

"The bonus is +1" (This later improves to +2, but the number is otherwise static.)
"The bonus may not be higher than your character level"

CHARACTER LEVEL. If you have a CHARACTER LEVEL OF 10 you get a 10 how difficult is this.

You are correct the bonus can not be higher than your character level. But when you get the +2 and at 10 you get 20 which higher than your character level. Yes i understand that 1000% i get that and that is why I have said I think the character level was an over sight.

If it worked like this
lv1 +1
lv2 +2
lv3 +2
lv4 +2
and so on like i said what was the point to putting, to a max of the characters level ? there is not one.

Now if it worked like PS like you all say it does
lv 1 +1 for wiz caster level 2
lv 2 +2 for wiz caster level 4
lv 3 +2 for wiz caster level 5
lv 4 +2 for wiz caster level 6
lv 5 +2 fighter for wizard caster level 7
lv 6 +1 fighter for wizard caster level 8
lv 9 +0 fighter for wizard caster level 9
lv 10 +0 fighter for wizard caster level 9

How is this working because the bonus is not higher than the char level so the bonus if remaining as is at a +2 will just increase the caster level buy 2. which at level 20 will having you casting level 2 spells at a caster level of level 9.

At no point do even come close to going over the character level. for the bonus at no point is this even close to being OP and on top of that if you have 20 levels as a wizard your casting the spells as a level 22 wizard which still does not change the DC for 10+9+MOD which at level 20 creatures/characters are easily able to bypass or even be immune to most effects so i say again how would this be OP even if it is as RAW says it is and lets you cast spells at level 20 as a level 40 wizard if the DC is still going to be so low.

[DeTess]

So who cares if the wizard can cast mage armor for 28 hours big deal, there is no way in any hell that the math I have presented is OP or unbalanced without digging for some crazy ass spells. The most common spells used by a wiz or x are not going to over run the table being cast at higher levels for duration damage area and range, any more than then spell casters do.


So you don't think there's anything wrong with a level 5 Illumian wizard supposedly casting a fireball for 10d6 damage, while any other wizard 5 casts it for 5d6?

Anyway, if you're going to continue talking about the definition, please use the actual text, rather than your interpretation. The actual text states you get a bonus to caster level, not per caster level.

I'm really feeling like a broken record here.

HunterX, just to confirm, English isn't your first language, right?

[ColorBlindNinja]

RAW is exactly how it is as written, you all are using RAI.

Look at exactly what it says do not think you know what the writer was trying to say see what they did say and except that period full stop.

I already have read what the text says RAW, it doesn't say what you think it does.

I have explained this to you over and over again.

If you want to prove your point, then quote text that proves that it scales.

The text you have quoted does not do that.

If you cannot do this, then you have no case.

[JNAProductions]

Also, let's just say this:

It's totally fine to be wrong. We all are, sometimes. It can be embarrassing to admit, and gets worse the longer you refuse to acknowledge you are, but it's better to say "Dang, I was wrong," and start working with what is right than to stubbornly stick to what's incorrect.

Hunter, we're not gonna judge you or laugh at you if you admit you're reading it incorrectly. We're just gonna be satisfied that we were finally able to explain it in a way that clicks.

[RoboEmperor]

Hunter, we're not gonna judge you or laugh at you if you admit you're reading it incorrectly. We're just gonna be satisfied that we were finally able to explain it in a way that clicks.

I think this is more "I want this to work this way" than a "i'm embarrassed to admit I'm wrong". I used to argue like he did concerning Early Access Versatile Spellcaster.

[JNAProductions]

I think this is more "I want this to work this way" than a "i'm embarrassed to admit I'm wrong". I used to argue like he did concerning Early Access Versatile Spellcaster.

I'm trying, okay? :P

But if you're right (which would not surprise me) then I ask you, Hunter, to find a DM who'd follow this ruling.

Ask in a different thread, ask any of the 3.5 GMs in the Recruiting section, and see if you can find any that would say an LA 0 race gives double caster levels. (Or more than double, should you multiclass.)

[Deophaun]

Many people (Deophaun, DwarvenWarCorgi, AvatarVecna, RoboEmperor, XionUnborn01) keeps trolling upon "bonus is per level" instead of "fixed bonus" of +1, +2, and possibly +3 with Enhanced Power Sigil Feat.
What I do?

Edit: What we need to do is try to get Hunterx to...
No. We need do no such thing. Unless someone here is sharing a table with Hunterx, what he believes or does not believe is irrelevant to everyone. Hunterx has made up his mind, no amount of argument is going to change that. You're just going to go round and round and round and it will never stop. If your goal is to change Hunterx's reading, you are just going to wind up being very, very frustrated.

[Hunterx]

So you don't think there's anything wrong with a level 5 Illumian wizard supposedly casting a fireball for 10d6 damage, while any other wizard 5 casts it for 5d6?

Anyway, if you're going to continue talking about the definition, please use the actual text, rather than your interpretation. The actual text states you get a bonus to caster level, not per caster level.

I'm really feeling like a broken record here.

HunterX, just to confirm, English isn't your first language, right?

Yes I know what is says thanks and yes English is my first language.

When you say you get something to something that is in addition.

So you get a +1 to your caster level, you are getting that added to your present level.
Even if it does not say per, it says that the bonus can be no higher than the character level.
So lets think about this if it is no a scaling bonus in any way how can you get over the character level in the first place. The answer by what you are saying is you can't so why would you bother to put that down there in the first place. You all assume that the writer made a mistake and added that there and i tend to think this is basically true but when i do the math there is nothing that is to outlandish about this.

A 10D6 fire ball at level 5 with a DC of lets say 17 no i do not see an issue with this at all, the DC is way low enough to pass for most creatures that you would be fighting at the level. If it is a character made by the DM you can a sure they will pass.

[JNAProductions]

Yes I know what is says thanks and yes English is my first language.

When you say you get something to something that is in addition.

So you get a +1 to your caster level, you are getting that added to your present level.
Even if it does not say per, it says that the bonus can be no higher than the character level.
So lets think about this if it is no a scaling bonus in any way how can you get over the character level in the first place. The answer by what you are saying is you can't so why would you bother to put that down there in the first place. You all assume that the writer made a mistake and added that there and i tend to think this is basically true but when i do the math there is nothing that is to outlandish about this.

A 10D6 fire ball at level 5 with a DC of lets say 17 no i do not see an issue with this at all, the DC is way low enough to pass for most creatures that you would be fighting at the level. If it is a character made by the DM you can a sure they will pass.

So, I take it you have no issues with Rogues getting +1d6 SA damage every level?
And Fighters getting two swings for every attack they'd normally make?
And anything else that outright doubles damage?

Because a doubled caster level will double your damage, most of the time, PLUS MORE. Durations, ranges, miscellaneous other...

[Hunterx]

What I do?

No. We need do no such thing. Unless someone here is sharing a table with Hunterx, what he believes or does not believe is irrelevant to everyone. Hunterx has made up his mind, no amount of argument is going to change that. You're just going to go round and round and round and it will never stop. If your goal is to change Hunterx's reading, you are just going to wind up being very, very frustrated.

You do not know me for one and as stated by RAW I am correct. So saying I am wrong when I am going by what the writer has put to paper is in itself wrong. Now in RAI you may see it as a different version of PS which it is not, and the caster level would only double that is not that powerful when you look at everything. Yes i see what everyone is saying and the example I was writing out almost looked they way as PS and almost made sense

Lv1 +1
Lv2 +2
Lv3 +2
Lv4 fighter +2
Lv5 fighter +2
lv6 fighter +0

well that makes no sense because once you get 2 levels of any other class the bonus is gone and done will no that is just stupid. As i Have stated before that Krau has no stipulation about multi classing and gives you a +2.

This is how I think it works, but with RAW the doubling of the caster level holds true.

Lv1 wiz +1 caster level 2
Lv2 wiz +2 caster level 4
Lv3 wiz +2 caster level 5
Lv4 Wiz +2 caster level 6
Lv5 Fighter +2 wizard caster level 7
Lv6 Fighter +2 wizard caster level 8
Lv7 fighter +2 wizard caster level 9
Lv8 cleric +2 cleric caster level 3 wizard caster level 11
Lv9 cleric +2 cleric caster level 4 wizard caster level 13

This makes sense and is the way it would be if they did not put in to a max of the character level. The maximum is the maximum of the bonus not the maximum of the caster level.

[DeTess]

So you get a +1 to your caster level, you are getting that added to your present level.
Even if it does not say per, it says that the bonus can be no higher than the character level.
So lets think about this if it is no a scaling bonus in any way how can you get over the character level in the first place. The answer by what you are saying is you can't so why would you bother to put that down there in the first place. You all assume that the writer made a mistake and added that there and i tend to think this is basically true but when i do the math there is nothing that is to outlandish about this.


And there is the problem with your reading, as opposed to the reading of everyone else of this ability. Everyone else reads the ability as +1 to caster level, your total caster level can't exceed your character level. Only you try to make it into some ridiculously OP bonus.

There is simply no way the ability does what you claim it does because it doesn't have the word 'per' in there. As someone with English as their frist language, you'd know that.

[Hunterx]

So, I take it you have no issues with Rogues getting +1d6 SA damage every level?
And Fighters getting two swings for every attack they'd normally make?
And anything else that outright doubles damage?

Because a doubled caster level will double your damage, most of the time, PLUS MORE. Durations, ranges, miscellaneous other...

SA just has to have no dex to get, plus you can get sneak attack every level for a few levels, and i think you can get up to SA 4D6 at level 4.

A fighter with 2 weapon fighting can double the damage out put, or with power attack can depending on the weapon double the damage at level 1 it depends on race of course and at level 2 with the right race a barbarian cab become large have 20' reach with a reach weapon and use power attack to add almost double damage.

So no i do not see an issue with this at all.

[JNAProductions]

You're also assuming that WotC was absolutely, 100% precise with every word they put down, with absolutely no wasted words.

Wizards of the Coast.

They've written stuff where, by RAW, literally nothing happens. See Invoke Magic. They wrote a spell-a 9th level spell!-that doesn't work.


SA just has to have no dex to get, plus you can get sneak attack every level for a few levels, and i think you can get up to SA 4D6 at level 4.

A fighter with 2 weapon fighting can double the damage out put, or with power attack can depending on the weapon double the damage at level 1 it depends on race of course and at level 2 with the right race a barbarian cab become large have 20' reach with a reach weapon and use power attack to add almost double damage.

So no i do not see an issue with this at all.

And I'm talking about, whatever they CURRENTLY HAVE-double it.

That's what you're saying.