ring of force shield and archery

[jk7275]

Hello

I am in a very inexperienced pathfinder group and we looted a ring of force shield. I passed on it which surprised some people in the group
As I am still learning about pathfinder my first reaction was oh it creates a shield so I cant use it being an archer ranger but then I read some old threads about turning off ring attacking then turn ring back on.

Based of what some people said what I can do is
1 turn off ring as a free action
2 Pull out 4 arrows from efficient quiver, I have many shot and rapid shot
3 do full attack
4 turn on ring as free action

This doesn't seem reasonable to me. First of all how much of the round does that take up? I have to issue commands mental or verbal to the ring and quiver. that is 2 free actions to turn ring on and off and isn't pulling out each arrow a free action? Basically i am doing 6 free actions and a full attack correct?

I am just curious if most people agree with me and think it you cant use ring and archery in same round

[Florian]

I am just curious if most people agree with me and think it you cant use ring and archery in same round

Be prepared to be disappointed.

[Psychoalpha]

As Florian said, prepare to be disappointed. I guess? I mean, if you're disappointed by getting something cool. >_>

Free actions either take up no time, or require no appreciable effort that would interfere with anything else you're doing at the same time, or are essentially part of the same action. To use your specific example, whether you're making 1 attack in a round or 10 attacks in a round (due to whatever combination one might have to allow it), the 'time taken' is the same. More to the point, the act of 'drawing an arrow from your quiver' is freely a part of those attacks, whether there are 1 or 10. An Efficient Quiver just acts as a nondimensional space that can hold a bunch of stuff, but drawing an arrow from it is functionally no different than drawing an arrow from a normal quiver, which is freely a part of your attacks as above. Put the quiver part of things out of your mind, because it's just part of the way combat in the game works.

As to the ring of force shield, that too relies on free actions. You can probably assume that it requires a command word to activate, since it doesn't specify an activation method and the item rules say 'If the activation is on command or if no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it.', but it's still a free action either way (as is speaking).

The physical actions you take are literally no different, outside of perhaps speaking a command word twice, when making your usual allotment of attacks with the ring of force shield than they are without it. The only thing that's really different is that before and after your attacks you have a +2 heavy shield made of force on one arm. If you're really having trouble with that, ask yourself: Could I say 'Go' as I reached to draw an arrow for my first attack and 'Come' as I finished making my last attack? Does it require any substantial effort or take up any reasonably measurable game time? Because that's all the effort and time it takes to dismiss and resummon the force shield.

tl;dr - It's a fantasy game, not a simulation, don't get too hung up on the details.

[Kurald Galain]

This doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Why do you think this ring would do exactly the same thing as a regular shield, considering it's over 400 times as expensive?

[grarrrg]

Cause rules:

Free Actions:
"Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
"Free actions don't take any time at all"

There are such things as "Not an Actions":
"Not an Action
Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."


So this:

1 turn off ring as a free action
2 Pull out 4 arrows from efficient quiver, I have many shot and rapid shot
3 do full attack
4 turn on ring as free action
Is actually really only this:

1 turn off ring as a free action
2 do full attack
3 turn on ring as free action

Which is only 2 Free Actions, which is a negligible amount of Free Actions.
Any reasonably sane DM would allow 2 Free Actions per turn. Most insane ones too for that matter.

[jk7275]

Cause rules:

Free Actions:
"Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
"Free actions don't take any time at all"

There are such things as "Not an Actions":
"Not an Action
Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."


So this:

Is actually really only this:


Which is only 2 Free Actions, which is a negligible amount of Free Actions.
Any reasonably sane DM would allow 2 Free Actions per turn. Most insane ones too for that matter.

Rules also state "When using a bow, a character can draw
ammunition as a free action;"
I have an efficient quiver. Going by the rule I quoted and comments made in other threads drawing anything from an efficient quiver is a free action
Is there anything anywhere that states drawing an arrow is not a free action?

[Mordaedil]

Crossbows, otherwise something I'm unaware of.

[Psychoalpha]

Rules also state "When using a bow, a character can draw
ammunition as a free action;"
I have an efficient quiver. Going by the rule I quoted and comments made in other threads drawing anything from an efficient quiver is a free action
Is there anything anywhere that states drawing an arrow is not a free action?

It's not that drawing anything from an efficient quiver is a free action, as the quiver item just says 'as if from a regular quiver or scabbard', so you draw whatever you want (from what's in the 'quiver') in the same way you would otherwise. In the case of arrows for a bow, it's a free action. If you had a crossbow, you'd use whatever action fit your type of crossbow and relevant feats and abilities. All the quiver does is let you carry a bunch more stuff than normal in a smaller space.

This all seems like a lot of work over a pretty simple thing. Dismiss shield, shoot your bow however many times, summon shield. Profit? >_>

[jk7275]

This all seems like a lot of work over a pretty simple thing. Dismiss shield, shoot your bow however many times, summon shield. Profit? >_>

It becomes a question of just how actions can someone perform per round and should I be allowed to turn ring off and on in the same round. Can I turn ring off and on plus do a full attack and move 5 feet to avoid attacks of opportunity. I also have a halberd and quick draw
so can I dismiss shield drop bow, quick draw halberd, do full attack, summon shield and possibly get an attacks of opportunity

I haven't fully learned the game. I am asking questions like this to get a better understanding.

[TheFamilarRaven]

It becomes a question of just how actions can someone perform per round and should I be allowed to turn ring off and on in the same round. Can I turn ring off and on plus do a full attack and move 5 feet to avoid attacks of opportunity. I also have a halberd and quick draw
so can I dismiss shield drop bow, quick draw halberd, do full attack, summon shield and possibly get an attacks of opportunity.

Yes. You can do all of that in a round, provided you had Quick Draw. Free actions are free. They take up no time whatsoever, and do not prevent you from taking other types of actions (including free actions).

[jk7275]

Yes. You can do all of that in a round, provided you had Quick Draw. Free actions are free. They take up no time whatsoever, and do not prevent you from taking other types of actions (including free actions).

Core rulebook does say there are limits to have many free actions you can do per round and that free actions do take very little time to perform not no time.

[grarrrg]

Core rulebook does say there are limits to have many free actions you can do per round and that free actions do take very little time to perform not no time.

Let's put it this way:
You have _literally_ everyone in this thread saying "yes you can do that" with regards to Free Actions.

The _only_ real question that remains is "what does your DM think?"

[ericgrau]

It's 2 free actions. It's hard to find a DM that thinks that's too many. What's not too many? 1 free action? You can have a free action, but only if you didn't also do a move and a standard, because that's too long? But yes it is up to the DM to decide how many is too many, like everything else. You can always ask him to make sure though I think he'll say that's fine.

[Psychoalpha]

It becomes a question of just how actions can someone perform per round and should I be allowed to turn ring off and on in the same round. Can I turn ring off and on plus do a full attack and move 5 feet to avoid attacks of opportunity. I also have a halberd and quick draw
so can I dismiss shield drop bow, quick draw halberd, do full attack, summon shield and possibly get an attacks of opportunity

You can, for the same reason that it takes you no more 'time' to make 2 attacks than it takes you to take 4, or 8, or 10, or however many your combination of classes, feats, etc allows you in one round. As is stated further down (and I think further up), the only limit on the number of free actions you get is the one where the DM starts to say "Okay now you're just being silly."

D&D is not a simulation of reality. For instance, speaking is generally a free action, but you probably aren't going to be allowed to read your character's manifesto between attacks. Unless, of course, your manifesto starts with "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya, etc etc.", in which case I think they're contractually obligated to let you finish.


I haven't fully learned the game. I am asking questions like this to get a better understanding.

Fair enough!

[jk7275]

It's 2 free actions. It's hard to find a DM that thinks that's too many. What's not too many? 1 free action? You can have a free action, but only if you didn't also do a move and a standard, because that's too long? But yes it is up to the DM to decide how many is too many, like everything else. You can always ask him to make sure though I think he'll say that's fine.

Only 2 free actions? I am doing more then turning ring on and off
first round of combat
1 free action for turning off ring
1 free action for telling wolf what to do
1 free action for quick drawing bow
1 free action for turning on ring

That is 4 free actions plus full attack and possibly take 5 foot step.

In other threads people have stated drawing an arrow is a free action so when I draw 4 arrows if that 4 free actions in addition to the ones I just listed?
Has Pazio said anything to clarify that or is it up the DM

How many free actions am I using? Is it 4 or 8 or some other number?

I assumed I cant use the ring because my gut reaction was It take too many actions.

[Florian]

How many free actions am I using? Is it 4 or 8 or some other number?

Again, that doesn't really matter. The "Free Action" category contains basically everything we don't want to count or track or even be bothered with. Most of the time, after you have established what exactly you're doing there, you won't announce most routine free actions anyway, like switching the ring on and off, drawing arrows. The reason why the GM is empowered to shut you down is when you either start to monolog instead of trading quips, or if your combat round is taking so absurdly long because you want to cram any type and number of actions in it, try to solve it via mechanics and describe it (It really bores the brains out of everyone who has to listen to a "Ok, I switch of the ring, shoot and quip "hope that hurts!", switch it on again, draw and arrow and nock it, switch the ring off again, shoot and quip "takes that, buddy!"....)

[ericgrau]

Only 2 free actions? I am doing more then turning ring on and off
first round of combat
1 free action for turning off ring
1 free action for telling wolf what to do
1 free action for quick drawing bow
1 free action for turning on ring

That is 4 free actions plus full attack and possibly take 5 foot step.

In other threads people have stated drawing an arrow is a free action so when I draw 4 arrows if that 4 free actions in addition to the ones I just listed?
Has Pazio said anything to clarify that or is it up the DM

How many free actions am I using? Is it 4 or 8 or some other number?

I assumed I cant use the ring because my gut reaction was It take too many actions.
3-4 extra free actions I think. Sure drawing arrows are free actions but that's practically a part of attacking. Directing your wolf is vocal, and presumably the free action instead of move action means you're reasonably sure he'll listen without any special attention or action. So that's easy enough to do while shooting. So if I were the DM i'd look at the ring activation and deactivation, and the quick draw. Quick draw is definitely greatly reduced time not eliminated time. The ring defaults to command word so I'd also call that vocal like the wolf, except that it must be done before and after shooting not while shooting. But it could be done at the same time as your quick draw.

So we're left with quick draw time plus ring re-activation time at the end of your turn. As a DM I'd say "Eh, that's fine". And more importantly this doesn't seem like an unreasonable time at all, and he should rule that way. But people aren't always logical, and he might come up with some totally random reason why he wants to disallow it, perhaps some made up BS unrelated to anything discussed here. So just ask him and be done with it. You can certainly bring up points brought up in this thread with him and that may help, but in the end you really just need to ask him, see what he says, and move on.

I don't really see the reason to count your arrow drawing and anything else you might think of. Heck you could argue aiming and so on is similar. Even if I did and I counted it as 6 free actions, that would be all the more reason to think that 2 more probably aren't a big deal. I mean what happens when you get 2 more attacks at higher level and draw more arrows? That's suddenly not allowed anymore? Also consider that drawing does take a little time, as does quick draw, and a thrower can by RAW quick draw several weapons in a round. Which will also raise at high level. So what's 2 more free actions, even if they're a small amount of time? But, again, see what your DM says.

I think the rule is there to prevent players from abusing 20+ free actions or even for certain 5-6 free actions that logically shouldn't be possible. Instead of timing every last little free action down to a tenth of a second, they tell the DM to use a little common sense. I don't think a couple extra free actions on top of your basic class features and commonly taken feats should count.

[Andreaz]

It's helpful to remember that you don't even need magick to break believability and causality. Extraordinary abilities are in no way less able to bull**** physics than supernatural or spell-like abilities.
Even completely nonmagical characters can run with pure shenanigans. Throwing half a dozen attacks, shout an order and issue a couple thoughtless commands? It's not even impressive, it's baseline.