Tricks that completely overcomes the wizard's spellbook weakness?

[RoboEmperor]

Not looking for Sandshaper or Shadowcraft Mage type stuff that adds a bunch of spells to the wizard for free. Looking for ways to be able to cast ANY spell you want without a spellbook, not a predetermined restrictive list.

I'm looking for methods that are completely impossible to stop. So creating a giant palace whose architecture is a spell and studied via a divination spell does not qualify because someone can just blow up the architecture.

Unearthed Arcana Spell Point System
+Makes the wizard superior to the sorcerer in every way possible
-No DM in their right mind will allow it
-Some DMs might interpret that you still need a spellbook to reprepare spells you've used the previous day.

Eidetic Spellcaster
+Completely and totally removes the spellbook weakness
-Requires dragon magazine content

Uncanny Forethought
+All spells you've scribed once into your spellbook are spells that you know, so with this feat you can cast INT MOD amount of spells per day even when your spellbook is destroyed.
-Only Int Mod amount of spells per day

Create a Simulacrum of a construct with spells engraved in its hull
+Even if that construct gets destroyed you can still create simulacra of it with Conjure Component
-Costs 1,000gp and 1,000xp
Can be made 100% free by planar binding Mirror Mephits. But this is ultra cheese tier.

Wish
+Creates a Spellbook
-Costs a **** ton of XP
Can be made 100% free with free wishes. But this is ultra cheese tier.

Rary's Arcane Conversion
+Cast on Heightened Read Magics to prepare any spell you know.
-6th level spell so it's gonna eat up a lot of your high level spell slots to cast repeatedly.
-Need to Spell Mastery this spell

Alacritous Cogitation
+Cast any spell you know that has 1 round or less casting time
-Only once per day

2 level Chameleon Dip
+Access to every single wizard spell in the game for free (upto -1 of highest spell level you can cast). For those of you who don't know the trick it's using the Chameleon's floating feat for Extra Spell everyday to add different spells to your spellbook daily.
-Two spellcasting levels lost.

Retraining Rules on Spell Mastery
+By retraining Spell Mastery every level for another Spell Mastery you can continually change the spells you've mastered every level, and increase the number of spells mastered when you get a higher INT mod.
-Requires using retraining rules for power instead of to fix a mistake.
-Only a few spells
The Magelord Prestige Class adds more mastered spells

Dweomerkeeper
+Mantle of Spells lets you cast up to 5 spells without a spellbook
-Is one of the most brokenly OP classes in the game
-Only 5 spells

Archmage
+Can turn a spell into a SLA
-Sacrifice a spell slot
-Only one spell per archmage level

Cerebremancer
+Psychic Reformation for Spell Mastery and Extra Spell
-Three spellcasting levels lost (though there might be some early entry cheese)
-Costs XP

Lucid Dreaming (Manual of the Planes)
+A person in the material plane planeshifting to the dream plane, creating a spellbook (or an epic item like rod of excellent magic) with the lucid dreaming skill, and then bringing that spellbook back to the material plane makes it real.
-Unplayably broken

Dark Chaos Shuffle on Alertness
+Familiars give an infinite amount of Alertness Feat.
-Unplayable broken



Rejected stuff

Tattooed summonable creature
Uses a VARIANT rule and also stopped by assassinating the summonable creature.

Tattooed spellbook
Not only can it be damaged in combat (healing magic won't restore it since tattoo ink isn't your body), but an erase spell also removes it.

Secret Chest
Focus can be stolen, Chest can be looted by ethereal creatures, disuse results in the loss of the chest.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think your best bet is Eidetic Spellcaster.

For learning spells, I'd go with abusing either WBL or Wish to get the scrolls you want.

Take Uncanny Forethought and you basically are a spontaneous caster.

You can combo with the Absorption spell for infinite spells per day.

[Gusmo]

Would you consider unremovable no-XP wish casting ability as acceptable? Then you could just make a blessed book with 1,000 spells, and wish for it back if destroyed. Dweomerkeeper learning wish via spell mastery could do it, or a runesmith that took wish as an SLA. If you want more than 1,000 spells, you could just use multiple blessed books and call them volume 1, 2, 3, etc.

[RoboEmperor]

For learning spells, I'd go with abusing either WBL or Wish to get the scrolls you want.

Forgot about Wish, added to the list.


Would you consider unremovable no-XP wish casting ability as acceptable? Then you could just make a blessed book with 1,000 spells, and wish for it back if destroyed. Dweomerkeeper learning wish via spell mastery could do it, or a runesmith that took wish as an SLA. If you want more than 1,000 spells, you could just use multiple blessed books and call them volume 1, 2, 3, etc.

Forgot to add the free tidbit being cheese like free simulacrum. Added to the list.

To answer your question, normal Wish qualifies so of course no-xp wish also qualifies. I'm not only looking for free ways to overcome the wizard's spellbook weakness. Expensive ways count to. It just gotta be impossible to stop. Secret Chest for example, can not only be looted by some ethereal creature but also extended disuse or the loss of the focus results in its destruction as well so it doesn't qualify.

[Falontani]

Boccob's Spellshard?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Boccob's Spellshard?

Out of curiosity, what does it do and where is it from?

[Falontani]

Out of curiosity, what does it do and where is it from?

It doesn't exist by RAW, however Boccob's Spellbook from the MiC combined with Eberron's Spellshards (a dragonshard that can be used as a spellbook without pages). If your DM is fine with allowing you to enchant the Spellshard with the enchantment from the spellbook

[ColorBlindNinja]

It doesn't exist by RAW, however Boccob's Spellbook from the MiC combined with Eberron's Spellshards (a dragonshard that can be used as a spellbook without pages). If your DM is fine with allowing you to enchant the Spellshard with the enchantment from the spellbook

I see, thank you for clarifying.

[Maat Mons]

Boccob's Spellshard?

Out of curiosity, what does it do and where is it from?

It doesn't exist by RAW, however Boccob's Spellbook from the MiC combined with Eberron's Spellshards (a dragonshard that can be used as a spellbook without pages). If your DM is fine with allowing you to enchant the Spellshard with the enchantment from the spellbook

I think he actually meant Aureon's Spellshard.

[Jay R]

Why? Wizards are already tier one; why are you trying to make them more powerful?

[Particle_Man]

You could use pathfinder to go the other way. Play their human sorcerer and get a favoured class bonus of more spells known plus there is a repeatable feat to get more spells known.

[Falontani]

I think he actually meant Aureon's Spellshard.

That would be more thematic, yes, or perhaps the Shadow's Spellshard. Make it from a Khyber Dragonshard.

[RoboEmperor]

Why? Wizards are already tier one; why are you trying to make them more powerful?

I don't mind trading power to remove the weakness.


You could use pathfinder to go the other way. Play their human sorcerer and get a favoured class bonus of more spells known plus there is a repeatable feat to get more spells known.

Sorry 3rd edition only.

[Yogibear41]

You can buy sturdier spellbooks and/or enchant them with magic, if you read the fine print even a standard wizard spellbook is pretty resilient. Taking Spell Mastery even once at a decent level should give you enough spells to always have an answer for a situation, it might not be a good answer, but still being able to do something is better than nothing. People tend to underrate spells like fireball IMO.

[RoboEmperor]

You can buy sturdier spellbooks and/or enchant them with magic, if you read the fine print even a standard wizard spellbook is pretty resilient.

Not what I'm looking for.


Taking Spell Mastery even once at a decent level should give you enough spells to always have an answer for a situation, it might not be a good answer, but still being able to do something is better than nothing. People tend to underrate spells like fireball IMO.

Spell Mastery is already covered in the first post.

[Crake]

If you play with pathfinder material, the 1st level spell secluded grimoire makes your spellbook practically a non-issue, as it's basically secret chest for your spellbook, but without any need for a focus. Make a command word item for it (I fluffed mine as a nameplate) which would only cost 450gp to craft if you have craft wondrous item, and you can pretty much make your spellbook appear and disappear at will.

[noob]

Use dark chaos shuffle to get tons of spell mastery thanks to your infinite source of alertness that is your familiar.

[Mordaedil]

At a hefty cost, one of my players pointed out to me that his selection of one of the alternative class abilities for his illusionist wizard was that he could sacrifice his bonus spell slot per day for an extra 2 illusion spells every level and they'd be automatically covered by the spell mastery feat. This means his assortment of illusion spells will at least work if he loses his spellbook.

[Particle_Man]

Since you are willing to trade power you could play a beguiller or warmage. You never lose access to your spell list.

[Psyren]

Not technically a wizard, but an epic StP Erudite gets their whole list. There are a number of ways to bypass the UPPD restriction, most notably Soul Crystal from MoI, which has the added benefit of turning everyone else in your party into wizards too.

If epic is out of the equation, you can still get up to 8th level spells.

[Uncle Pine]

Lucid Dreaming (Manual of the Planes) could arguably be used to prepare spells without a spellbook by creating arcane architectures of the spells you need within your dream and then studying them.
Price: a handful of skill points and/or skill boosters to reliably hit the DC 15 to change one aspect of your personal dream.

[ezekielraiden]

Combining Aureon's spellshard with Geometer 2 sounds like it would be useful. Geometer 2 makes it so your spells never take more than a single page to scribe, and a single mage knowing even 500 spells strikes me as....unlikely (that would be 50 per spell level, counting cantrips, and I'm pretty sure at least a couple spell levels don't even have 50 Sor/Wiz spells to scribe.) If you could persuade your DM to let you like...implant the spellshard inside your body but still benefit from its effects, that would pretty much solve the problems of losing or damaging your spellbook.

You could also have multiple spellshards all with the same contents. Keep one in a secret chest that you refresh every 59 days, or whenever you need to update it with your new spells (though this will typically mean investing a few days to copy spells to each shard.) The secret chest is essentially unfindable without the miniature replica used to cast the spell, as even a wish cannot locate it and the effort of starting a planar expedition just to find one measly chest is far too great for the vast majority of opponents. That way, all you have to do is keep the miniature chest, which could be concealed in a hidden pocket or the like (it is miniature, after all), or perhaps incorporated into an earring or an ankle-bracelet that can't be removed. That way, even if you are stripped bare, you still have the miniature chest, and thus can summon it to you and retrieve your backup spellshard. (And maybe a change of clothes, if you're worried about being stripped naked...)

But frankly, at this point, you're looking more at being severely weakened by your loss of magic items than by the loss of your spellbook.

Edit: The Archmage PrC can turn slots into twice-daily SLAs (more if spending slots of higher level), so that might be useful too, as it's foolproof.

I can't really think of any way you can outdo Eidetic spellacaster though. It's exactly what you want, and I know of no other feature that perfectly replicates its generality, accessiblity, and totally foolproof nature.

Edit 2:

Lucid Dreaming (Manual of the Planes) could arguably be used to prepare spells without a spellbook by creating arcane architectures of the spells you need within your dream and then studying them.
Price: a handful of skill points and/or skill boosters to reliably hit the DC 15 to change one aspect of your personal dream.

Well, if Dragon mag content is already suspicious, I suspect 3.0 content will be even worse.

[ColorBlindNinja]

most notably Soul Crystal from MoI, which has the added benefit of turning everyone else in your party into wizards too.

Soul Crystal is so awesome, I'm surprised more people don't talk about it.

Probably because it's from an obscure splatbook.



If epic is out of the equation, you can still get up to 8th level spells.

Well, you can get them before then if you're willing to be cheesy.

[Malphegor]

you may have already covered these in this thread, but here’s what I have from memory-

Geometer 2- book of geometry. You can now scribe your spells as patterns and drawings, meaning they each take up one page no matter the spell. I recall a thread once that worked out the surface area of a human given an A4 page as the spellbook page size, and I think it was around 50 pages worth. Tattoo half your spells on your body.

Alacritous Cogitation- prepare one spell (no longer than a full round action) without a spellbook, spontaneously, cast as a full round action


Uncanny Forethought- basically your INT modifier numbers worth of Alacritous Cogitation. I only mention AC as it doesn’t need a feat prerequisite.

Dweomerkeeper 3 or 4 you have a mantle of spells that you can convert any spell into, so long as they are equal or lower to it, spell slot wise. A wizard can prepare read magic without a spellbook anyway, and you can prepare lower level spells in higher level slots. Prepare all your spells with the read magic spell from now on (without a spellbook) and just use your mantle spells from then on.


Looking up soul crystal now, my DM is keen on MoI and keeps trying to get us to use it but I found it confusing on my first ever session playing D&D, lol.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Uncanny Forethought- basically your INT modifier numbers worth of Alacritous Cogitation. I only mention AC as it doesn’t need a feat prerequisite.

I mentioned Uncanny Forethought already, but it bears worth repeating, it's awesome.


Looking up soul crystal now, my DM is keen on MoI and keeps trying to get us to use it but I found it confusing on my first ever session playing D&D, lol.

It's a shame too, because it's such an interesting subsystem, but so poorly laid out. :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

Looking up soul crystal now, my DM is keen on MoI and keeps trying to get us to use it but I found it confusing on my first ever session playing D&D, lol.

Well to be clear, Soul Crystal is in MoI but it actually has nothing to do with Incarnum mechanically. The connection is more in the fluff of the ability and the "proto-souls" Incarnum uses. So even a group that wants nothing to do with Incarnum as a system should be able to use that power.

[RoboEmperor]

Use dark chaos shuffle to get tons of spell mastery thanks to your infinite source of alertness that is your familiar.

This is unplayable. But hey, it's still a trick, so I'll add to the list.


Since you are willing to trade power you could play a beguiller or warmage. You never lose access to your spell list.

Doesn't have the spells I want to use. I'd rather go sorcerer, but since wizards get spells 1 level earlier than sorcerers, I'm just brainstorming if I can get rid of the things that bother me on the wizard.


Not technically a wizard, but an epic StP Erudite gets their whole list. There are a number of ways to bypass the UPPD restriction, most notably Soul Crystal from MoI, which has the added benefit of turning everyone else in your party into wizards too.

If epic is out of the equation, you can still get up to 8th level spells.

If only StP wasn't webcontent I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. In any case yeah it's not a wizard so doesn't qualify. However it does remind me of the brokenly OP spell point system, so I'll add that to the list.


Lucid Dreaming (Manual of the Planes) could arguably be used to prepare spells without a spellbook by creating arcane architectures of the spells you need within your dream and then studying them.
Price: a handful of skill points and/or skill boosters to reliably hit the DC 15 to change one aspect of your personal dream.

You need "special materials" and "reagents' and the like to scribe spells into spellbooks and alternate spellbooks so arguably the spellbook is some kind of mandatory magical tool that uses its special property to imprint spells into your mind. So arguably just a picture of the spell doesn't work.


Combining Aureon's spellshard with Geometer 2 sounds like it would be useful. Geometer 2 makes it so your spells never take more than a single page to scribe, and a single mage knowing even 500 spells strikes me as....unlikely (that would be 50 per spell level, counting cantrips, and I'm pretty sure at least a couple spell levels don't even have 50 Sor/Wiz spells to scribe.) If you could persuade your DM to let you like...implant the spellshard inside your body but still benefit from its effects, that would pretty much solve the problems of losing or damaging your spellbook.

Indeed. But in another thread, I think Jack_Simth (or however you spell his name), proved that even if you embed an item into yourself and then turn yourself into a ghost for that ghostly equipment thing, it can still be taken from you so...


You could also have multiple spellshards all with the same contents. Keep one in a secret chest that you refresh every 59 days, or whenever you need to update it with your new spells (though this will typically mean investing a few days to copy spells to each shard.) The secret chest is essentially unfindable without the miniature replica used to cast the spell, as even a wish cannot locate it and the effort of starting a planar expedition just to find one measly chest is far too great for the vast majority of opponents. That way, all you have to do is keep the miniature chest, which could be concealed in a hidden pocket or the like (it is miniature, after all), or perhaps incorporated into an earring or an ankle-bracelet that can't be removed. That way, even if you are stripped bare, you still have the miniature chest, and thus can summon it to you and retrieve your backup spellshard. (And maybe a change of clothes, if you're worried about being stripped naked...)

Secret Chest can fail because not only can an ethereal being randomly loot your chest, but disuse results in its destruction and the focus component renders the entire spell IMO pointless.


But frankly, at this point, you're looking more at being severely weakened by your loss of magic items than by the loss of your spellbook.

Wizards don't need magic items. I often play my spellcasters 100% naked and give my entire WBL to my party because I don't need magic items XD


Edit: The Archmage PrC can turn slots into twice-daily SLAs (more if spending slots of higher level), so that might be useful too, as it's foolproof.

I will add to the list.


Well, if Dragon mag content is already suspicious, I suspect 3.0 content will be even worse.

It's actually the opposite. By RAW all 3.0 material is 3.5. But Dragon Magazine is 2nd party, highly inaccessible, and not play tested which is why a lot of DMs don't allow it. I have yet to meet a DM that did allow it.


Alacritous Cogitation- prepare one spell (no longer than a full round action) without a spellbook, spontaneously, cast as a full round action

Interesting. I'll add to the list.


Dweomerkeeper 3 or 4 you have a mantle of spells that you can convert any spell into, so long as they are equal or lower to it, spell slot wise. A wizard can prepare read magic without a spellbook anyway, and you can prepare lower level spells in higher level slots. Prepare all your spells with the read magic spell from now on (without a spellbook) and just use your mantle spells from then on.

I'll add to the list.


I mentioned Uncanny Forethought already, but it bears worth repeating, it's awesome.

It's a good thing that you did. I forgot that any spell you scribe into a spellbook once is a spell that you know. So yeah, if you have Uncanny Forethought you can cast Int Mod amount of spellls if your spellbook gets destroyed which is enough for a minionmancy spell. Thanks, I think we have a winner here!

[ColorBlindNinja]

I have yet to meet a DM that did allow it.

*Raises hand*

I allow Dragon Magazine content in my games. :smallsmile:

[Crichton]

*Raises hand*

I allow Dragon Magazine content in my games. :smallsmile:

Me too! With oversight, of course.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Me too! With oversight, of course.

That makes two of us!

I actually haven't found that much truly broken content in Dragon Magazine, IMO.

[Crichton]

That makes two of us!

I actually haven't found that much truly broken content in Dragon Magazine, IMO.

There are some things, but all in all, it's not so bad, as long as players bring it to me to look at before they plan to use it.

[RoboEmperor]

That makes two of us!

I actually haven't found that much truly broken content in Dragon Magazine, IMO.

To give one example, there's this dragon mag thing where you can add a component during construct creation to give it a small int score. So now the mindless max hd golem is now an epic creature with epic feats out-ubercharging the party fighter while being virtually unkillable at the same time or is some kind of perfect two weapon fighter throwing 9 ranged attacks a round with str modifier added to damage with literally no limit to range due to some epic feats completely ignoring all penalties for firing at extremely long ranges. And unlike awaken construct this construct is 100% under your control.

Dragon magazine is like that. Something innocuous looking like giving constructs a tiny int score blows up just like that. There were a bunch of other stuff I found really cool but then when I put it into my build it just became too strong.

[ColorBlindNinja]

To give one example, there's this dragon mag thing where you can add a component during construct creation to give it a small int score. So now the mindless max hd golem is now an epic creature with epic feats out-ubercharging the party fighter while being virtually unkillable at the same time or is some kind of perfect two weapon fighter throwing 9 ranged attacks a round with str modifier added to damage with literally no limit to range due to some epic feats completely ignoring all penalties for firing at extremely long ranges. And unlike awaken construct this construct is 100% under your control.

I remember that bit, it's one of Emperor Tippy's favorite methods making for Shadesteel Golem minions.


Dragon magazine is like that. Something innocuous looking like giving constructs a tiny int score blows up just like that. There were a bunch of other stuff I found really cool but then when I put it into my build it just became too strong.

I was curious, so I made a thread about borked Dragon Magazine content. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578581-Most-Broken-Dragon-Magazine-Content) :smallsmile:

[Anthrowhale]

You could be a Cerebramancer with Psychic Reformation and take Spell Mastery on demand. This is potentially even better if you are a Sorcerer if spell choice is a "decision of these sorts", since you can get any Sorcerer spell after a 10 minute timeout.

[RoboEmperor]

You could be a Cerebramancer with Psychic Reformation and take Spell Mastery on demand. This is potentially even better if you are a Sorcerer if spell choice is a "decision of these sorts", since you can get any Sorcerer spell after a 10 minute timeout.

Added to the list

[Crake]

What's your reasoning for allowing dragon magazine material, but not pathfinder?

[RoboEmperor]

What's your reasoning for allowing dragon magazine material, but not pathfinder?

Most games i've encountered is 3e only or pathfinder only. You ask a pf dm for 3e material they throw the book in your face because the whole reason they are playing pf instead of 3e is because they hate 3e. Likewise if you ask a dm to include pf materials, well sometimes they agree but other times they don't saying 3e already has enough powerful options you don't need to bring in pf's power creep on the base classes into the mix.

Most of the tricks are 3e, like eidetic spellcaster, chameleon, uncanny forethought, wish, and absolutely none of them work in a PF game.

I personally never been in a game that allowed dragon magazine material but I still put it on the list because Dragon mag is 3e.

Iunno, this is a 3e list, i think that's reason enough to exclude pf materials.

[Uncle Pine]

You need "special materials" and "reagents' and the like to scribe spells into spellbooks and alternate spellbooks so arguably the spellbook is some kind of mandatory magical tool that uses its special property to imprint spells into your mind. So arguably just a picture of the spell doesn't work.
Actually, you aren't scribing anything. As per the Lucid Dreaming skill:

Change Aspect: An aspect of a dreamscape includes background features such as lighting, terrain, architecture of a given building, vegetation (or lack thereof ), and other relatively innocuous characteristics of a dreamscape. You can’t use Lucid Dreaming to make a bolt of lightning strike a foe or open a pit below an enemy.
A monolith of fireball or cottage of plane shift are both completely innocuous, as all they do is allowing someone to prepare a given spell. You don't need to invest any resource to basically wish them into your dream reality any more than you would be required to have a mountain shedding light like a torch: all you need is a DC 15 check. After these structures have been created, "preparing a spell from a structure works like preparing spell from a borrowed spellbook".



That makes two of us!

I actually haven't found that much truly broken content in Dragon Magazine, IMO.
Make that three. :smallwink:

[RoboEmperor]

Actually, you aren't scribing anything. As per the Lucid Dreaming skill:

A monolith of fireball or cottage of plane shift are both completely innocuous, as all they do is allowing someone to prepare a given spell. You don't need to invest any resource to basically wish them into your dream reality any more than you would be required to have a mountain shedding light like a torch: all you need is a DC 15 check. After these structures have been created, "preparing a spell from a structure works like preparing spell from a borrowed spellbook".

The argument here is that the spells are written with "magic ink" and you need "magic ink" to imprint spells into your brain, not normal ink. That's why all forms of alternate spellbooks, even ones carved in stone, have a hefty gp cost. You need to write/scribe/carve with special materials and reagents, not just normal stuff.

So the argument is that the spellbook in your dreamscape is not made up of "magic ink", just fake dream ink, so you can't use that to study just like you can't use a Permanent Image of a spellbook to prepare your spells.

Now this is all speculation though, so a DM might rule otherwise. I'll add it to the list and let the individual DMs decide on their own.

[Uncle Pine]

The argument here is that the spells are written with "magic ink" and you need "magic ink" to imprint spells into your brain, not normal ink. That's why all forms of alternate spellbooks, even ones carved in stone, have a hefty gp cost. You need to write/scribe/carve with special materials and reagents, not just normal stuff.

So the argument is that the spellbook in your dreamscape is not made up of "magic ink", just fake dream ink, so you can't use that to study just like you can't use a Permanent Image of a spellbook to prepare your spells.

Now this is all speculation though, so a DM might rule otherwise. I'll add it to the list and let the individual DMs decide on their own.

There are no limitation in the Lucid Dreaming skill regarding magic and nonmagical materials: you can just dream alternate spellbooks made of perfectly magical dream ink instead of limiting yourself to fake dream ink. The key difference to the Permanent Image of a spellbook scenario being that with Lucid Dreaming you don't study an image, but an actual physical object materialised within your dream.

[Crake]

Most games i've encountered is 3e only or pathfinder only. You ask a pf dm for 3e material they throw the book in your face because the whole reason they are playing pf instead of 3e is because they hate 3e. Likewise if you ask a dm to include pf materials, well sometimes they agree but other times they don't saying 3e already has enough powerful options you don't need to bring in pf's power creep on the base classes into the mix.

Most of the tricks are 3e, like eidetic spellcaster, chameleon, uncanny forethought, wish, and absolutely none of them work in a PF game.

I personally never been in a game that allowed dragon magazine material but I still put it on the list because Dragon mag is 3e.

Iunno, this is a 3e list, i think that's reason enough to exclude pf materials.

With pf1's support coming to a close, and both of the systems a) becoming abandoned systems, and b) one literally being based and initially designed around using the other's material, I think this is a sentiment that needs to change. Personally, I've been heavily pushing my groups to adopt a wider stance on available material, because both pathfinder and 3.5 off many great options, and limiting yourself to one or the other is intentionally shooting yourself in the foot. A good DM can always vet characters, and good players won't intentionally build something broken, so unless you have a poor relationship with your players... but even that's not really an excuse, because both systems are easily breakable within the scope of their own material anyway.

People have their preferred base system, I can understand that, but I cannot see any purpose in denying material from the other beyond poorly concieved misconceptions akin to people hating psionics because of the reputation it's had.


There are no limitation in the Lucid Dreaming skill regarding magic and nonmagical materials: you can just dream alternate spellbooks made of perfectly magical dream ink instead of limiting yourself to fake dream ink. The key difference to the Permanent Image of a spellbook scenario being that with Lucid Dreaming you don't study an image, but an actual physical object materialised within your dream.

The issue with lucid dreaming is nothing carries over to the real world. You may prepare your spells in your dream, but you won't have them once you wake up.

[Uncle Pine]

The issue with lucid dreaming is nothing carries over to the real world. You may prepare your spells in your dream, but you won't have them once you wake up.

The wording on waking up with the spells prepared is a bit nebulous, which is why I've used arguably in my first message. However, the usual workaround is to not wake up at all and simply plane shift yourself out of the dream realm with the spells prepared, thus never passing through the forget phase of waking up.

[Crake]

The wording on waking up with the spells prepared is a bit nebulous, which is why I've used arguably in my first message. However, the usual workaround is to not wake up at all and simply plane shift yourself out of the dream realm with the spells prepared, thus never passing through the forget phase of waking up.

The arguable part here is that you would "plane shift" to "reality" but it's still just part of the dream.

Edit: Which makes for an interesting premise for an adventure. A wizard is trapped in his dreams, but thinks he's actually awake and going about his business in wakeland

[RoboEmperor]

With pf1's support coming to a close, and both of the systems a) becoming abandoned systems, and b) one literally being based and initially designed around using the other's material, I think this is a sentiment that needs to change. Personally, I've been heavily pushing my groups to adopt a wider stance on available material, because both pathfinder and 3.5 off many great options, and limiting yourself to one or the other is intentionally shooting yourself in the foot. A good DM can always vet characters, and good players won't intentionally build something broken, so unless you have a poor relationship with your players... but even that's not really an excuse, because both systems are easily breakable within the scope of their own material anyway.

People have their preferred base system, I can understand that, but I cannot see any purpose in denying material from the other beyond poorly concieved misconceptions akin to people hating psionics because of the reputation it's had.

I think it's also due to author authority. If I made changes to Shakesphere's plays, some people say it's an improvement and they use my version, some people will say who the **** am I to change the great bard's work and reject all of my changes. I know my DM has no respect for Paizo and sticks with WotC exclusively because he says "you play pathfinder the way the developers tell you to, while in 3.5 you make your own playstyle." Then he talks about all the crazy amount of fun things that may break the game in 3.5 v.s. PF's base class exclusive playstyle.

@Uncle Pine
I skimmed the dreamscape thing and it seems iffy. If any spell you cast aren't actually cast, then the opposite should be true. Any spell you prepare aren't actually prepared.

Where does it say you can enter dreams with plane shift though? If that's true you can get someone else to dream a spellbook, plane shift into his dream, prepare spells, and then plane shift back. This would just be a starting point of my optimization, but I do need a quote that says I can plane shift in and out of dreams.

[Crake]

I think it's also due to author authority. If I made changes to Shakesphere's plays, some people say it's an improvement and they use my version, some people will say who the **** am I to change the great bard's work and reject all of my changes. I know my DM has no respect for Paizo and sticks with WotC exclusively because he says "you play pathfinder the way the developers tell you to, while in 3.5 you make your own playstyle." Then he talks about all the crazy amount of fun things that may break the game in 3.5 v.s. PF's base class exclusive playstyle.

This would be more akin to you writing an additional 30 acts to shakespear's plays, maybe some of them are trash, maybe some are great. You haven't changed the original play (assuming you're using 3.5 as your base system), but there is some quality content among the additions you've made, and most, if not all of the additional content is for the most part, standalone, so can be added to the original play without too much issue.

[Mordaedil]

What's your reasoning for allowing dragon magazine material, but not pathfinder?

My only reasoning for restricting content from one to the other is usually because they are kinda balanced differently and unless it is fairly clear-cut, the rules might be incompatible for certain cases. For instance racial bonuses are different, class abilities are balanced differently, so certain spells might be incompatible or just non-functional.

[Uncle Pine]

The arguable part here is that you would "plane shift" to "reality" but it's still just part of the dream.

Edit: Which makes for an interesting premise for an adventure. A wizard is trapped in his dreams, but thinks he's actually awake and going about his business in wakeland
For all intents and purposes, the region of dreams is a plane with a few extra options to access it: nothing in its description suggests that plane shift is rendered ineffective. Usually when certain spells are hindered or modified within a plane it's specified in the planar traits section.


@Uncle Pine
I skimmed the dreamscape thing and it seems iffy. If any spell you cast aren't actually cast, then the opposite should be true. Any spell you prepare aren't actually prepared.
Not really, because one is explicitly a trait of the plane (see the magic trait section), while the other is a houserule. You can't learn spells, gain or lose objects, or gain xp inside the region of dreams (see the time trait section), but there's nothing preventing you from preparing spells like you'd normally do.


Where does it say you can enter dreams with plane shift though? If that's true you can get someone else to dream a spellbook, plane shift into his dream, prepare spells, and then plane shift back. This would just be a starting point of my optimization, but I do need a quote that says I can plane shift in and out of dreams.
The region of dreams from Manual of the Planes is described as a plane. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) is a spell that allows you to travel in and out of planes.
However, if you don't mind the extra step and the extra spell level, there's also the Dream Travel spell (8th level compared to the 7th of Plane Shift): described in the same section as the region of dreams, it allows the caster and up to another creature/CL to physically enter the region of dreams.

You and any creature you touch are drawn along a crystal arc of reverie to the edge of conscious thought and into the Region of Dreams. You can take more than one creature along with you (subject to your level limit), but all must be touching each other when you cast the spell. You physically enter the plane of Dream, leaving nothing behind.
In Dream, you move through a menagerie of thoughts, desires, and phantoms created by the minds of dreamers everywhere. For every minute you move through Dream (which is only a single round on the Material Plane), you can "wake" to find yourself five miles displaced in the waking world. Thus, a character can use this spell to travel rapidly by physically entering where only dreams prowl, moving the desired distance, and stepping back into the waking world. You know where you will come out in the waking world.
Dream travel can also be used to travel to other planes that contain creatures who dream, but this requires crossing into the Dreamheart, where you are subject to the vagaries of violent dream realities. Transferring to another plane of existence requires 1d4 hours on Dream (which corresponds to 1d4×6 minutes as time is measured on most other planes).
Any creatures touched by you when dream travel is cast also makes the transition to the borders of unconscious thought. They may opt to follow you, wander into other dreamscapes, or stumble back into the waking world (50% chance for either of the latter results if they are lost or abandoned by you). Creatures unwilling to accompany you into the Region of Dreams receive a Will saving throw, negating the effect if successful.
Note:Unlike the normal rules for dreaming, items you use, spells you cast, and other consumables are still gone when you return to the waking world after being under the effect of this spell.
Likewise, items you gain and experience you accumulate while under the effect of this spell stay with you.
This allows you to sidestep the grey area about casting/not casting spells and so on, but doesn't actually prevent you from lucid dreaming. So you physically enter dream, dream up an architecture spellbook, study it, and then move on.

[Crake]

For all intents and purposes, the region of dreams is a plane with a few extra options to access it: nothing in its description suggests that plane shift is rendered ineffective. Usually when certain spells are hindered or modified within a plane it's specified in the planar traits section.

Except you're not casting plane shift, you're dreaming that you're casting plane shift.


The region of dreams from Manual of the Planes is described as a plane. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) is a spell that allows you to travel in and out of planes.
However, if you don't mind the extra step and the extra spell level, there's also the Dream Travel spell (8th level compared to the 7th of Plane Shift): described in the same section as the region of dreams, it allows the caster and up to another creature/CL to physically enter the region of dreams.

Entering the plane of dreams and getting to a specific dream are two different things though.

[Malphegor]

Dream Travel spell

I was looking at that the other day. I recall I worked out that if using that for travel in reality you can get 300 miles per hour by popping in and out of people's dreams on your way.

Which sounds like a cracky and trippy chase sequence- 'sorry kid, keep fighting that dream tarrasque, just passing through your subconscious mind to the next city over, maybe direct your dream to stop the demons after us!'

anyhow, I think the line you all are after is:


Likewise, items you gain and experience you accumulate while under the effect of this spell stay with you.

If you find it in the dream, you can make it real when you pop back into reality because it's functionally a real item you can take.

So I suppose you could prepare your spells in the dream while you're in there.

Now, whether the precise magical notation is correct in reality and not just fudged by the dreamer because dream logic, that feels like a spellcraft check to check if you haven't filled your spell slots with garbage uncasteable junk spell data.

[Uncle Pine]

Except you're not casting plane shift, you're dreaming that you're casting plane shift.
You are casting plane shift while dreaming:

Normal Magic: Spells can be cast normally, but travelers who leave Dream discover that any spells they used on the plane weren't really cast (they still have them as
prepared spells or available spell slots). Similarly, any spells still in effect when a traveler leaves Dream are gone as if they were never cast.
This gives us a definition of what "weren't really cast" means: a spell cast within the region of dreams doesn't consume prepared spells or spell slots, and any spell you cast that is still in effect when you leave Dream is ended, its effect retroactively gone. However, plane shift is istantaneous so it's not in effect when you leave Dream, meaning that Inception-like scenarios in which you haven't actually planeshifted outside of Dream but are still inside while sounding awesome aren't backed up by these rules.


Entering the plane of dreams and getting to a specific dream are two different things though.
Yes, but as long as you are in the plane of dreams (which Dream Travel explicitly allows you to do without raising any of the objections plane shift could lend itself to) you can use Lucid Dreaming just fine, albeit with a DC 20 instead of 15 if you aren't in your personal dreamscape.
Regarding RoboEmperor's suggestion to have someone else preemptively set up a dreamscape with various spellbooks and then visit it via plane shift, it could be done via Dream Travel with a DC 15 check to "depart one dreamscape for another". You'd still need to be able to beat that check and thus invest in Lucid Dream ranks yourself though, so I'm not sure this method would be significantly more efficient than simply lucid dreaming the architectures/spellbooks yourself.

[RoboEmperor]

It feels like you can just dream up an epic innocuous magic item like a rod of excellent magic and just bring it to the material plane infinitely. Sounds like a TO trick worse than astral projection. I'll mention in the first post that it does seem to work by raw but it is in fact unplayably broken.

[noob]

It feels like you can just dream up an epic innocuous magic item like a rod of excellent magic and just bring it to the material plane infinitely. Sounds like a TO trick worse than astral projection. I'll mention in the first post that it does seem to work by raw but it is in fact unplayably broken.

The problem is: are you really dreaming a rod of excellent magic or are you just dreaming something that looks like one but which is a plain rod and then dreaming of having the effect of the rod of excellent magic whenever you cast spells in the dream.
On the other hand you can still bring tons of stuff from the plane of dreams that looks just like real stuff.

[Quertus]

*Raises hand*

I allow Dragon Magazine content in my games. :smallsmile:


Me too! With oversight, of course.

Add me to the list. And most of the GMs I know.

Balance to the group. Why care about anything else?


The arguable part here is that you would "plane shift" to "reality" but it's still just part of the dream.

Edit: Which makes for an interesting premise for an adventure. A wizard is trapped in his dreams, but thinks he's actually awake and going about his business in wakeland

That does sound awesome!


I was looking at that the other day. I recall I worked out that if using that for travel in reality you can get 300 miles per hour by popping in and out of people's dreams on your way.

Um, the quote says you move 5 miles per round, which sounds to me like 3,000 mph.


If you find it in the dream, you can make it real when you pop back into reality because it's functionally a real item you can take.


It feels like you can just dream up an epic innocuous magic item like a rod of excellent magic and just bring it to the material plane infinitely. Sounds like a TO trick worse than astral projection. I'll mention in the first post that it does seem to work by raw but it is in fact unplayably broken.

I built that character. Problem is, items brought from dream had a duration of d100 rounds. But AFB, so I'm not sure if that was the GM's house rule, or RAW. Or if it requires a "dream rupture" (whatever that is...). Anybody got a raw QUOTE for me?

[Anthrowhale]

I don't know if this "counts", but there are 3 ways to make wizard spells available on a cleric or domain list which eliminates the need for a spellbook.


The Arcane Disciple cleric variant (Dragon #311) trades turn undead and domains for 1 Bard or Sorcerer/Wizard spell/level and a bonus metamagic/item creation feat at level 1,5,10,15,20.
If you take Customize Domain (Dragon #325) for the magic domain, you can pick any spell at one level higher than normal.
The Divine Magician ACF (Complete Mage) allows you to trade a domain for one necromancy, abjuration, or divination wizard spell per spell level.

Arcane Disciple seems pretty nice as you get 20 spells, including potentially some of the level-reduced Bard spells (i.e. irresistible dance as a level 6 spell at character level 11) and the extra 5 feats are a nice bonus. You lose a bonus spell for every level of prestige class and you'll need to invest in Earth Spell or similar to get off-list spells at your maximum available level.

[RoboEmperor]

The Arcane Disciple cleric variant (Dragon #311) trades turn undead and domains for 1 Bard or Sorcerer/Wizard spell/level and a bonus metamagic/item creation feat at level 1,5,10,15,20.

Definitely off-topic, but I would totally grab this. Giving up DMM is a really hefty price but the few sor/wiz spells you gain more than makes up for it. Too. Bad. It's. Freaking. Dragon. Magazine. Though.

[Psyren]

If only StP wasn't webcontent I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. In any case yeah it's not a wizard so doesn't qualify. However it does remind me of the brokenly OP spell point system, so I'll add that to the list.

Actually, Spell Point wizards still need spellbooks, so I don't think that will help you in this thread.


*Raises hand*

I allow Dragon Magazine content in my games. :smallsmile:

None of my DMs ever have (including me), save Dragon Compendium stuff.

Well, I did allow some psionics stuff (specifically that one issue with the Soulknife options, but that's because Soulknife badly needed all the help it could get.)

[RoboEmperor]

Actually, Spell Point wizards still need spellbooks, so I don't think that will help you in this thread.

I thought you only needed spellbooks to re-prepare your prepared spells? Do they need to re-prepare everyday after rest? If it's the former they don't need spellbooks. If it's the latter then yeah they need spellbooks.

[ColorBlindNinja]

None of my DMs ever have (including me), save Dragon Compendium stuff.

I'm not convinced Dragon Magazine is as broken as people claim it is.

Sure, it has some unbalanced content, but I haven't seen anything as bad as some of the more notorious stuff from Frostburn or Serpent Kingdoms.



Well, I did allow some psionics stuff (specifically that one issue with the Soulknife options, but that's because Soulknife badly needed all the help it could get.)

Poor Soulknife, you were not destined for greatness. :smallfrown:

[Remuko]

Um, the quote says you move 5 miles per round, which sounds to me like 3,000 mph.

5 miles per round. 10 rounds per minute. 50 miles per minute. 50 x 60(minutes in an hour) = 3000. You are correct. Just wanted to show the math for anyone who wanted clarification on how you got that result/where the other persons math went wrong.

[Psyren]

I'm not convinced Dragon Magazine is as broken as people claim it is.

Sure, it has some unbalanced content, but I haven't seen anything as bad as some of the more notorious stuff fromFrostburn or Serpent Kingdoms.

We ban that stuff too. Definitely Ice Assassin and Manipulate Form. I think we were able to use Skull Talismans once or twice though.

"It's not Pun-Pun!" isn't really a high bar :smalltongue:


I thought you only needed spellbooks to re-prepare your prepared spells? Do they need to re-prepare everyday after rest? If it's the former they don't need spellbooks. If it's the latter then yeah they need spellbooks.

If you're good with just one limited set of spells forever, why not be a Sorcerer?

And even the new spells you get from leveling need to be first added to the book and then studied as normal.

[ColorBlindNinja]

We ban that stuff too. Definitely Ice Assassin and Manipulate Form.

Shivering Touch?


I think we were able to use Skull Talismans once or twice though.

They are nifty items.


"It's not Pun-Pun!" isn't really a high bar :smalltongue:

True, but Serpent Kingdoms fails that test. :smallwink: And nothing in Dragon Magazine even comes close to either Manipulate Form or Ice Assassin.

[Crake]

You are casting plane shift while dreaming:

This gives us a definition of what "weren't really cast" means: a spell cast within the region of dreams doesn't consume prepared spells or spell slots, and any spell you cast that is still in effect when you leave Dream is ended, its effect retroactively gone. However, plane shift is istantaneous so it's not in effect when you leave Dream, meaning that Inception-like scenarios in which you haven't actually planeshifted outside of Dream but are still inside while sounding awesome aren't backed up by these rules.

That line is referring to travelers not dreamers. So if you plane shifted to the plane of dreams, then cast a bunch of stuff, then plane shifted back out, everything you cast in the dream you would still have the spell slots for, but a dreamer is not a traveler, everything they "cast" is just a dream.

[Psyren]

Shivering Touch?

We added a fort save.



True, but Serpent Kingdoms fails that test. :smallwink:

Well yeah, that's what I meant. :smalltongue:


And nothing in Dragon Magazine even comes close to either Manipulate Form or Ice Assassin.

I know, but that's my point. "It's not as bad as two of the most unbalanced things ever printed" doesn't mean "it's good."

[ColorBlindNinja]

We added a fort save.

That works.



Well yeah, that's what I meant. :smalltongue:

Right. :smallsmile:



I know, but that's my point. "It's not as bad as two of the most unbalanced things ever printed" doesn't mean "it's good."

Fair enough.

[RoboEmperor]

If you're good with just one limited set of spells forever, why not be a Sorcerer?

And even the new spells you get from leveling need to be first added to the book and then studied as normal.

1. You get spells faster as wizard rather than sorcerer.
2. You can just put your new free spells on your body as tattoos and then prepare them and then erase them later.

In any case spell point wizards function 100% without spellbooks, significantly more than uncanny forethought or spell mastery so it counts as overcoming the spellbook weakness.

[The Insanity]

Have you seen the Magelord from Lost Empires of Faerun? It and multiple Spell Mastery feats might do the trick, or at the very least help in some way.


Why? Wizards are already tier one; why are you trying to make them more powerful?
Maybe. just maybe, that is the level of optimization his group is playing at, and, stick with me for a moment here, they have fun doing so?

[Uncle Pine]

That line is referring to travelers not dreamers. So if you plane shifted to the plane of dreams, then cast a bunch of stuff, then plane shifted back out, everything you cast in the dream you would still have the spell slots for, but a dreamer is not a traveler, everything they "cast" is just a dream.

In a cosmology with the region of dreams in it all dreamers are travelers in Dream, so I'm not sure where you're coming from. :smallconfused:

The Region of Dreams, usually simply called Dream, is where dreams cavort, heedless of the waking world. Dreams once dreamt fade into obscurity, but their echoes
resonate forever throughout Dream. Carcasses of particularly vile dreams, charged with dark emotion, sometimes rampage from dreamscape to dreamscape, giving rise to terrible nightmares.
Into the Region of Dreams come dreamers, whether they will it or not, every time they fall asleep. Their minds take flight to the Region of Dreams. The edges of Dream expand and contract with temporary dreamscapes as dreamers on every plane sleep and wake. Dream would exist even if there were no dreamers, though.
The many dreamscapes created by dreamers last but a short time, and they rarely impinge on each other accidentally. However, there are those who knowingly walk between dreamscapes, doing as they will. Sometimes such lucid dreamers pierce the very heart of Dream, where average dreams dare not roam.

When an average dreamer enters Dream, she retains all her abilities and even gains dream-stuff equivalents of carried or worn items. Likewise, her hit points, ability scores, and all other values are exactly as they were before she fell asleep. For example, if she is a 5th-level wizard with a wand of lightning, she can use both her spells and her wand in Dream. When she wakes up, she'll find that she neither cast any prepared spells nor expended charges from her wand.
"Dreamer", "dreamwalker", and "traveler in the region of dreams" are synonymous. Why would you think they're different? And if they are, whenever a sentence in the MotP refers to one of them, what happens to the other two if they're put in the exact same situation? If they were different categories, you'd have different paragraphs detailing how each of the oddities in Dream affects them separately.


Maybe. just maybe, that is the level of optimization his group is playing at, and, stick with me for a moment here, they have fun doing so?
But that's insanity!

[RoboEmperor]

Have you seen the Magelord from Lost Empires of Faerun? It and multiple Spell Mastery feats might do the trick, or at the very least help in some way.

Added a note under Spell Mastery for that prestige class.

[Quertus]

5 miles per round. 10 rounds per minute. 50 miles per minute. 50 x 60(minutes in an hour) = 3000. You are correct. Just wanted to show the math for anyone who wanted clarification on how you got that result/where the other persons math went wrong.

Yeah, thanks. I'm constitutionally opposed to showing my work - I'm glad you clarified that for me.


I thought you only needed spellbooks to re-prepare your prepared spells? Do they need to re-prepare everyday after rest? If it's the former they don't need spellbooks. If it's the latter then yeah they need spellbooks.


If you're good with just one limited set of spells forever, why not be a Sorcerer?

And even the new spells you get from leveling need to be first added to the book and then studied as normal.


1. You get spells faster as wizard rather than sorcerer.
2. You can just put your new free spells on your body as tattoos and then prepare them and then erase them later.

In any case spell point wizards function 100% without spellbooks, significantly more than uncanny forethought or spell mastery so it counts as overcoming the spellbook weakness.

Well, barring my level of cheesy goodness, you'll never be able to have all your spells memorized, so, yeah, you're just a different kind of Sorcerer without your spellbook... but you technically have some spells (until something like a Spell Thief strips them from your mind, so only ~99% effective), so, sure, you've largely overcome one of the drawbacks of a Wizard's spell book, making them almost as good as a Kobald* Sorcerer.

Hooray?

* Anything that grants a sorcerer level, or, rather, more sorcerer levels than its LA + HD, or just HD after LA buyoff.

[Psyren]

1. You get spells faster as wizard rather than sorcerer.
2. You can just put your new free spells on your body as tattoos and then prepare them and then erase them later.

In any case spell point wizards function 100% without spellbooks, significantly more than uncanny forethought or spell mastery so it counts as overcoming the spellbook weakness.

That's not due to the spell points though; A spell slot wizard could use tattoos too. I've never disputed that tattoos can be used to replace a spellbook, I'm saying that the spell points are irrelevant. With that said though, I would recommend using a tattooed spellbook to supplement spellbooks (i.e. tattooing your most critical/useful spells, and using books for the niche stuff.) This is especially true if you're trying to learn more spells than can fit on your body, because erasing tattoos to make room for more is much more expensive and time-consuming than using a book or even a series of books.

[RoboEmperor]

That's not due to the spell points though; A spell slot wizard could use tattoos too. I've never disputed that tattoos can be used to replace a spellbook, I'm saying that the spell points are irrelevant. With that said though, I would recommend using a tattooed spellbook to supplement spellbooks (i.e. tattooing your most critical/useful spells, and using books for the niche stuff.) This is especially true if you're trying to learn more spells than can fit on your body, because erasing tattoos to make room for more is much more expensive and time-consuming than using a book or even a series of books.

The difference is a spell point wizard only needs to rest to replenish spell points where as a normal wizard needs to rest and use a spellbook 100% of the time.

A differently abled sorcerer as you put it is still a wizard that overcame their spellbook weakness. There's a massive difference between a wizard who can't cast spells period and a wizard who can't change out "spell knowns" but still can cast most of their spells.

The loss of a spellbook in one case is just a minor inconvenience while in the other case is completely devastating and utterly character ruining.

[Anthrowhale]

What about Rary's Arcane Conversion?

[RoboEmperor]

What about Rary's Arcane Conversion?

Hey that works! You just need heighten spell and prepare all your slots with heightened read magic and spam this spell! Nice!

[Psyren]

The difference is a spell point wizard only needs to rest to replenish spell points where as a normal wizard needs to rest and use a spellbook 100% of the time.

Ah, I understand you now - but that's not how I read it.

"With this variant, spellcasters still prepare spells as normal (assuming they normally prepare spells). In effect, casters who prepare spells are setting their list of “spells known” for the day."

To me it sounds like, even though you're not "forgetting" the spells like vancian casters do, you still need to re-memorize your allotment each morning even if you only need one copy of each. If you don't do that, you have no "spells known" that day, even if you did yesterday.

[RoboEmperor]

Ah, I understand you now - but that's not how I read it.

"With this variant, spellcasters still prepare spells as normal (assuming they normally prepare spells). In effect, casters who prepare spells are setting their list of “spells known” for the day."

To me it sounds like, even though you're not "forgetting" the spells like vancian casters do, you still need to re-memorize your allotment each morning even if you only need one copy of each. If you don't do that, you have no "spells known" that day, even if you did yesterday.

Vancian casters don't lose prepared uncast spells when they rest right? And when they prepare new spells, the old prepared spells are left untouched unless you want to replace them right? That's why I think you don't lose your prepared "spell knowns" when you rest to replenish spell points. Because not losing uncast spells is normal right?

Or am i wrong. Been a while since I played a wizard.

[Crichton]

Hey that works! You just need heighten spell and prepare all your slots with heightened read magic and spam this spell! Nice!

You'd also need to be able to prepare Rary's Arcane Conversion(RAC) in half your slots, because it basically costs you 2 spell slots to cast one spell. One slot with RAC(assuming you, what, tattoo it on, to be able to prepare it?), and the slot you re-prepare with whatever spell you ultimately want to cast. In effect, you'd lose half your slots, then. More, really, since you can only prepare RAC in slots of level 6 or higher, so you will basically have a total number of spells per day equal to however many 6+ slots you have RAC prepared in.

In order to 'spam' this spell to fill all your slots with the spells you actually want, you'll basically need access to RAC at will, which is a pricey proposition(132000gp, for use-activated at will), and as a custom magic item your DM would have to sign on to it.

Additionally, you also have to already have any spell you want access to scribed in your spellbook, as per the description of RAC. It doesn't mention having your spellbook with you, but if it isn't, you can't learn and add new spells to it. Not sure that qualifies as 'completely overcoming the wizard's spellbook weakness'

[RoboEmperor]

You'd also need to be able to prepare Rary's Arcane Conversion(RAC) in half your slots, because it basically costs you 2 spell slots to cast one spell. One slot with RAC(assuming you, what, tattoo it on, to be able to prepare it?), and the slot you re-prepare with whatever spell you ultimately want to cast. In effect, you'd lose half your slots, then. More, really, since you can only prepare RAC in slots of level 6 or higher, so you will basically have a total number of spells per day equal to however many 6+ slots you have RAC prepared in.

In order to 'spam' this spell to fill all your slots with the spells you actually want, you'll basically need access to RAC at will, which is a pricey proposition(132000gp, for use-activated at will), and as a custom magic item your DM would have to sign on to it.

Additionally, you also have to already have any spell you want access to scribed in your spellbook, as per the description of RAC. It doesn't mention having your spellbook with you, but if it isn't, you can't learn and add new spells to it. Not sure that qualifies as 'completely overcoming the wizard's spellbook weakness'

Maybe my title is misleading. By spellbook weakness I meant becoming worse than a commoner when you lose your spellbook. Retraining Spell Mastery every level for me qualifies as overcoming this weakness because you can prepare 6 level relevant spells. Where as Spell Mastery without retraining doesn't qualify because you're stuck with low level spells only.

Over the course of several days you can use RAC to fill out most of your spell slots. And if you don't have days you still have a good portion of your high level spell slots. I'm not talking about 100% power here, just being able to do something is enough. And that "something" should be something you choose, and not some kind of predetermined spell list like sandshaper or shadowcraft mage. For that you look up that easy bake wizard guide somewhere on this forum.

[Crichton]

Maybe my title is misleading. By spellbook weakness I meant becoming worse than a commoner when you lose your spellbook. Retraining Spell Mastery every level for me qualifies as overcoming this weakness because you can prepare 6 level relevant spells. Where as Spell Mastery without retraining doesn't qualify because you're stuck with low level spells only.

Over the course of several days you can use RAC to fill out most of your spell slots. And if you don't have days you still have a good portion of your high level spell slots. I'm not talking about 100% power here, just being able to do something is enough. And that "something" should be something you choose, and not some kind of predetermined spell list like sandshaper or shadowcraft mage. For that you look up that easy bake wizard guide somewhere on this forum.

Ok, that makes sense. So to do that, you just need a way to be able to prepare RAC, which is easy enough, and you need your spellbook to exist intact, somewhere. That's should be doable. Having multiple copies in secure locations has long been a survival strategy for wizards. And, by high levels, 132k for an at-will item of RAC is expensive, but not prohibitive.

[Psyren]

Vancian casters don't lose prepared uncast spells when they rest right? And when they prepare new spells, the old prepared spells are left untouched unless you want to replace them right? That's why I think you don't lose your prepared "spell knowns" when you rest to replenish spell points. Because not losing uncast spells is normal right?

Or am i wrong. Been a while since I played a wizard.

It all depends on whether you consider a prepared spell that was cast the previous day using spell points as "uncast" or not. I see your perspective, but I don't think the intent was that a spell point wizard could simply throw away their spellbook once they had everything they wanted memorized once.

[RoboEmperor]

Ok, that makes sense. So to do that, you just need a way to be able to prepare RAC, which is easy enough, and you need your spellbook to exist intact, somewhere. That's should be doable. Having multiple copies in secure locations has long been a survival strategy for wizards. And, by high levels, 132k for an at-will item of RAC is expensive, but not prohibitive.

Nah, I rule lawyered that spells in a destroyed spellbook count too. The spell does not require a spellbook as a component or a focus. So whether the spellbook is stolen, in a different plane, or burned and exists only in the past doesn't matter. The spell is always scribed in your spellbook, whether or not it's annihilated or not.


It all depends on whether you consider a prepared spell that was cast the previous day using spell points as "uncast" or not. I see your perspective, but I don't think the intent was that a spell point wizard could simply throw away their spellbook once they had everything they wanted memorized once.

Fair enough, I'll make a note in the first post.

[Segev]

Tattoo or Scarring Spellbook
+ On your body, so not being taken without flaying you
- Requires maiming you to take away, and not necessarily subtle
- A cruel DM might rule that being hit by certain kinds of damage damages "pages" of your spellbook
Get yourself some form of regeneration and you can argue that your scars or tattoos return when you heal back up.

Epic Staff Mastery, allows you to cast any spell in a staff you've made, yourself, by expending a spell slot of the appropriate level
+ Can make the spells in the staff all cost 50 charges (since you'll never cast it without using a spell slot instead), greatly reducing crafting cost.
+ Spontaneously cast any spell in the staff.
- Requires you to keep the Staff on you at all times
- You must have personally made the staff
- Epic levels only
There is a glove that allows you to store a staff in its palm and use the staff. This will help with convenience, at least.

Become a Beholder Mage - they cast all their spells spontaneously, and learn them as a wizard
+ Spontaneous casting of any spell you know with wizard-like spell learning capacity
+ one spell per spell level per round!
- Very specific build, not compatible with normal wizard levels (my preferred build starts with 5 levels of Psion(Telepath))
- Depending on how the DM rules, the spellbook may remain a vulnerability akin to the "palace that is a spellbook upon which I scry to prepare spells" design mentioned in the OP
- No sane DM would allow this. Not unless he was willing to allow ridiculous power, anyway.

Mythic Archmage powers; there's one that lets you spend Mythic Surges to cast any spell you know.
+ Doesn't even require a spell slot
- Mythic only

Tattoo Spellbook on a minion or prisoner; kill and create undead into a ghost
+ Can be kept under control by whatever undead-control means you like
+ If destroyed, comes back again with no input from you
- Can still be captured
- Can be liberated
- EXTREMELY evil without highly contrived circumstances

Mage of the Arcane Order - tap the spellpool
+ Any spell you want!
+ Repay with any spell you happen to prepare
- Limited levels and access
- Can't cast every spell every day this way

Rod of Splendor + clothing-as-spellbook
+ Can create 25,000 gp worth of clothing and gems daily; that's a lot of spells stitched into your fancy robes
+ Recoverable duplicates of your spellbooks with any Rod of Splendor you can find.
- Extremely cheesy
- Dependent on having such a Rod.

[noob]

When you activate a staff, you can substitute a spell slot instead of using a charge. The spell slot must be one you have not used for the day, though you may lose a prepared spell to emulate a staff charge (you may not lose prepared spells from your school of specialty, if any). The spell slot lost must be equal to or higher in level than the specific spell stored in the staff, including any level-increasing metamagic enhancements. You cannot emulate a charge for a staff function that does not match a specific spell.

look you substitute a spell for a charge so if you have a staff that costs 50 charges to cast a spell and that you spend a single spell to substitute for a charge it would lose 49 charges.
On the other hand if you are a muscle wizard and have spell slots based on str then you can possibly have enough spell slots to consider that wasting 50 slots for each spell you cast to be fine.

[Uncle Pine]

Rod of Splendor + clothing-as-spellbook
+ Can create 25,000 gp worth of clothing and gems daily; that's a lot of spells stitched into your fancy robes
+ Recoverable duplicates of your spellbooks with any Rod of Splendor you can find.
- Extremely cheesy
- Dependent on having such a Rod.
I refuse to die. I'm wearing Otiluke's resilient sphere, for crying out loud. - Epitaph of a fashionable wizard

Is there actually a clothing-as-spellbook variant somewhere? Because that sounds awesome.

[RoboEmperor]

I refuse to die. I'm wearing Otiluke's resilient sphere, for crying out loud. - Epitaph of a fashionable wizard

Is there actually a clothing-as-spellbook variant somewhere? Because that sounds awesome.

I'm still going over Segev's list, but clothing-as-spellbook is identical to tattoo spellbooks so why not.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Maybe my title is misleading. By spellbook weakness I meant becoming worse than a commoner when you lose your spellbook. Retraining Spell Mastery every level for me qualifies as overcoming this weakness because you can prepare 6 level relevant spells. Where as Spell Mastery without retraining doesn't qualify because you're stuck with low level spells only.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Losing your spellbook is a blow, sure, but it doesn't reduce you to a fancy commoner unless you're completely out of spells and have spent none of your WBL on spell trigger, spell completion, or effect producing gear.

Spells you still have memorized can be scribed in a new book at half price and remain memorized until you either do so, cast them, or expend them in item crafting or some other spell sacrificing mechanic.

There's nothing wrong with trying to mitigate that risk but it's important to keep the risk in its proper perspective.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. the Arcane Conversion route, it seems like Repeat Spell and/or Echoing Spell are particularly compelling additions.