Making the Artificer playable

[gogogome]

Artificer seems like a fun concept so I want to include it in my game. So here are a few restrictions (not house rules) I thought up of.
1. No PrC spell lists.
2. No breaking WBL. So no selling fabricated items, wall of salt, creating ambrosia/liquid pain, etc. If an artificer wants an increase in wealth, the only thing he can do is get crafting feats with cost reducers.

That's all I could come up with. Is there other ways an artificer can break the game aside from the usual spellcaster cheese?

[ColorBlindNinja]

From what I've heard, the Articifer isn't super easy to play and grabbing spells off of low level lists is one of the big draws to playing one.

I have heard some go as far as to say it's unplayable until level 8 or so.

EDIT: The class is still getting access to spells two levels earlier than the rest of the tier 1s, that could be a concern for game balance.

[Doctor Awkward]

1. There are plenty of other shenanigans they can do with lower level spells using only core, if that was your concern. Paladins get Restoration as a 2nd-level spell. Rangers get Wind Wall as a 2nd-level spell. And so on.

2. All characters that craft magic items break wealth-by-level, since they effectively double the amount of money they have to spend on equipment. Adding in the reduction cost artisan feats and they do it even more.


The way to challenge an artificer is with the bookkeeping and the action economy.

An artificer's spells do not automatically scale as they level like every other spellcaster's do. If they make a wand of scorching ray at level 6, it will be caster level 6 when they hit level 7.

Additionally, in order to use a wand, scroll, staff, etc., you must hold it in your hand. Unless they make it a point to scribe every single spell on the same length of parchment, they will have to spend actions retrieving the items necessary to cast the spell they want. There are ways to mitigate this, like heward's handy haversack, the infinite scrollcase, a quiver of elhonna, and the spare hand, but even then it is simply not possible for an artificer to have every spell ready to immediately solve any given problem at the ready at all times.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The way to challenge an artificer is with the bookkeeping and the action economy.

I've heard people joke that you need a degree in accounting to play an Artificer competently.

[noob]

You can ignore the crafting part and use infusions to win at everything.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You can ignore the crafting part and use infusions to win at everything.

This handbook talks about doing just that. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427628-Disregard-Money-Acquire-Buff-Spells-Artificers-without-the-Artifice)

[noob]

This handbook talks about doing just that. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427628-Disregard-Money-Acquire-Buff-Spells-Artificers-without-the-Artifice)

Without that handbook I would probably not have mentioned the doing everything with infusions part.

[gogogome]

I have heard some go as far as to say it's unplayable until level 8 or so.

This is not true. I've seen artificers break games from level 1. Artificers have access to animate dead at level 1 using PrC spell lists. Combine that with Summon Marked Homunculus and they can replace the entire party at level 1.


EDIT: The class is still getting access to spells two levels earlier than the rest of the tier 1s, that could be a concern for game balance.

This and the PrC spell list access are literally the only two things artificers have. You take both away and the class is worse than spellcasters in every way possible. Since I'm taking away one I can't take the other one away.


1. There are plenty of other shenanigans they can do with lower level spells using only core, if that was your concern. Paladins get Restoration as a 2nd-level spell. Rangers get Wind Wall as a 2nd-level spell. And so on.

Those aren't game breaking like Summon Giants and Planar Binding. Or the Divine Crusader's spell list.


2. All characters that craft magic items break wealth-by-level, since they effectively double the amount of money they have to spend on equipment. Adding in the reduction cost artisan feats and they do it even more.

I said the only way you're allowed to increase your WBL is crafting with cost reducers. No more than that though. If you invest in feats and xp to increase your wealth you should be able to, just not to infinity.



The way to challenge an artificer is with the bookkeeping and the action economy.

An artificer's spells do not automatically scale as they level like every other spellcaster's do. If they make a wand of scorching ray at level 6, it will be caster level 6 when they hit level 7.

Additionally, in order to use a wand, scroll, staff, etc., you must hold it in your hand. Unless they make it a point to scribe every single spell on the same length of parchment, they will have to spend actions retrieving the items necessary to cast the spell they want. There are ways to mitigate this, like heward's handy haversack, the infinite scrollcase, a quiver of elhonna, and the spare hand, but even then it is simply not possible for an artificer to have every spell ready to immediately solve any given problem at the ready at all times.

The artificer I played with used early access and caster level boosters to create minions like Animate Dead and Simulacrum. Simulacrum in particular was very powerful. Accessible at 6th level due to the Divine Crusader's lower caster level spells and had a Succubi simulacra deal with all noncombat encounters and whatever strongest simulacra he can create to deal with all combat encounters.

I agree that an artificer trying to play as an in combat spellcaster is not the most OP choice but an artificer trying to play an out of combat spellcaster who has access to the out of combat tricks 2-5 levels earlier is really OP.


I've heard people joke that you need a degree in accounting to play an Artificer competently.

Not true. Anyone who can read an online trick can use wish to create Mithral Golems at level 8.


You can ignore the crafting part and use infusions to win at everything.

Only if you have access to PrC spell lists.

[noob]

Only if you have access to PrC spell lists.

You do not need prc spell lists: there is plenty of low level spells that are great to persist such as expeditious retreat on the team fighter or yet getting to cast entangle then you can also get the varied paladin spells which are great.
You can also summon many elemental with the infusion that allows to give weapon enchantments or get a weapon of "slaying what is here right now" with action points to reduce the casting time of infusions to one round.


This is not true. I've seen artificers break games from level 1. Artificers have access to animate dead at level 1 using PrC spell lists. Combine that with Summon Marked Homunculus and they can replace the entire party at level 1.
It is false animate dead at level 1 is done with access to the spell list of the death master which is a base class and not a prc.
There is no prcs in the entire game that gets animate dead at a level lower than the death master.

[gogogome]

You do not need prc spell lists: there is plenty of low level spells that are great to persist such as expeditious retreat on the team fighter or yet getting to cast entangle then you can also get the varied paladin spells which are great.

Great, not gamebreaking.


It is false animate dead at level 1 is done with access to the spell list of the death master which is a base class and not a prc.
There is no prcs in the entire game that gets animate dead at a level lower than the death master.

Divine Crusader.

In any case I don't allow dragon magazine including dragon compendium so death master would be unavailable.

[noob]

Great, not gamebreaking.



Divine Crusader.

In any case I don't allow dragon magazine including dragon compendium so death master would be unavailable.

Divine crusader get animate dead at level 3 so at exactly the same level as death master.
also it is more expansive with the divine crusader version because it is cl 3 and level 3 while the death master one is cl 3 and level 2(so the former is 50% more expensive once we factor in the -2 cl from artificer)
With infusions artificers can get all the spells up to level 4 spells persisted and if they have the right wands they can get an infinity of spells per day with the temporary charge boost some infusions allows and you can put infusions on wands so you can possibly have time stop+unfettered heroism to make any infusion in a single round then give temp charges to the temp charge wand and then give charge to the celerity wand and give charges to the unfettered wand of heroism then add charges to the wand of whichever was the spell that avoided the drawback of celerity then use action point(which you regenerate) to constantly have charges on all the wands and when a battle comes use a significant portion of the temp charges of celerity as well as the temp charges on varied fighting wands.

[Mike Miller]

If you want to place a restriction, perhaps say the artificer must use the highest level the spell appears on. So if a spell is cleric 4 , sorcerer/wizard 5, then the artificer must access it as a 5th level spell. That would deny it all the "early" list spells.

[Cosi]

I feel like you're coming at this from the wrong direction. What seems fun about the Artificer? Figure that out, then start with those parts instead of trying to carve away the broken stuff.

[ColorBlindNinja]

This is not true. I've seen artificers break games from level 1. Artificers have access to animate dead at level 1 using PrC spell lists. Combine that with Summon Marked Homunculus and they can replace the entire party at level 1.


This and the PrC spell list access are literally the only two things artificers have. You take both away and the class is worse than spellcasters in every way possible. Since I'm taking away one I can't take the other one away.

Perhaps I should have added, "without cheese" to my post. :smallsmile:



Not true. Anyone who can read an online trick can use wish to create Mithral Golems at level 8.

Well, like I said, it was a joke. :smalltongue:

[gogogome]

I feel like you're coming at this from the wrong direction. What seems fun about the Artificer? Figure that out, then start with those parts instead of trying to carve away the broken stuff.

My players figure out whats fun about a class. Not me. The moment I start making changes to the class based on my opinion of how the artificer should be played then I am telling my players how to play the class and all other ways is badwrongfun.

As DM my job is to prevent a player from breaking the game, not tell them how to play their characters.

[DeTess]

My players figure out whats fun about a class. Not me. The moment I start making changes to the class based on my opinion of how the artificer should be played then I am telling my players how to play the class and all other ways is badwrongfun.

As DM my job is to prevent a player from breaking the game, not tell them how to play their characters.

I think what Cosi means to say is that if you don't figure out what's fun about the class before trying to fix what you see as broken, you run the risk of breaking what's fun.

Anyway, are you playing with a group that actively needs to be stopped from breaking things? Because otherwise you could just tell them not to break things, instead of trying to fix every potentially broken class.

Also, what do you mean by not breaking WBL? An artificer crafting stuff will obviously end up with gear with a value higher than the expected WBL, which is part of the expectation of the class.

[gogogome]

I think what Cosi means to say is that if you don't figure out what's fun about the class before trying to fix what you see as broken, you run the risk of breaking what's fun.

Anyway, are you playing with a group that actively needs to be stopped from breaking things? Because otherwise you could just tell them not to break things, instead of trying to fix every potentially broken class.

Also, what do you mean by not breaking WBL? An artificer crafting stuff will obviously end up with gear with a value higher than the expected WBL, which is part of the expectation of the class.

Some of my players get way too excited and do in fact end up breaking the game like that Simulacrum artificer. He means well, he just can't control himself in the heat of the moment and apologizes to us after we confront him. We made him pick monsters whose CR was equal to our ECL and everything turned out ok.

What I meant by not breaking WBL is that you can't make gp other than what I give you. So if I give you 4,000gp across level 5-6, you can spend it on magic items, you can use crafting feats with cost reducers to create 8,000gp+ worth of magic items, but that's it. Only directly crafting items is the acceptable wealth increaser. No running your own shop, no selling Fabricated items, etc.

[noob]

Some of my players get way too excited and do in fact end up breaking the game like that Simulacrum artificer. He means well, he just can't control himself in the heat of the moment and apologizes to us after we confront him. We made him pick monsters whose CR was equal to our ECL and everything turned out ok.

What I meant by not breaking WBL is that you can't make gp other than what I give you. So if I give you 4,000gp across level 5-6, you can spend it on magic items, you can use crafting feats with cost reducers to create 8,000gp+ worth of magic items, but that's it. Only directly crafting items is the acceptable wealth increaser. No running your own shop, no selling Fabricated items, etc.

There is something called the crafting reserve(assuming the adventurer does not refills it) which tells approximately how much more wbl per level an artificer should gain(do not forget to raise the increase in wbl when the artificer takes feats that reduce xp costs).
Some artificers can be angry they did not get to use their crafting reserve entirely.

[DeTess]

There is something called the crafting reserve(assuming the adventurer does not refills it) which tells approximately how much more wbl per level an artificer should gain(do not forget to raise the increase in wbl when the artificer takes feats that reduce xp costs).
Some artificers can be angry they did not get to use their crafting reserve entirely.

A house-rule a past DM has used is to simply say that the crafting reserve doesn't 'drain' on level-up but is simply additive.

As to the actual OP's question, unless you're rewriting all Tier 1 classes, there's some obvious stuff that you can't fix. However, what you've listed should go a long way towards fixing artificer-specific stuff. For game-play purposes, I'd also tell the player that he can't go book-dive for the perfect spell during hectic situations (like combat), and that he's expected to already know which spells he want to emulate and have the book-reference ready to go when he's asking for spotlight time to do spell-stuff. This might be important, given the versatility in spells an artificer could cast at any one time, and an unprepared player could waste everyone's time by taking 10 minutes to find the perfect spell every-time it's his turn in combat.

[Cosi]

I think what Cosi means to say is that if you don't figure out what's fun about the class before trying to fix what you see as broken, you run the risk of breaking what's fun.

Yes, exactly. Suppose the thing that makes people excited about the Artificer is digging into weird spell lists for spells at low levels. If you take that away to balance the class -- which I would argue is probably necessary -- you may as well just ban the class. If that's what someone wants from the Artificer, the better solution is probably to point them towards Chameleon, which has enough delay in its casting that grabbing spells from fast-progression lists is merely good rather than broken. The floating feat even makes it a decent crafter.