Adapting the Lasher

[Palanan]

The Lasher is a PrC from Sword and Fist focused on whips and whip daggers. I’d like to use this in my Pathfinder game, but I’m not sure how much needs to be altered. I'm dropping the skill requirements, but the other prerequisites seem reasonable.

In addition, I’m a little perplexed by the wording of the Wound class feature:


At first level, a lasher can use a normal whip to deal regular damage to an opponent, instead of subdual damage, at her option. This allows the lasher to inflict damage on creatures with an armor bonus of +1 or better or a natural armor bonus of +3 or better. If using the whip to deal subdual damage, it deals no damage to creatures with a +1 or more armor bonus or +3 or more natural armor (as usual).

I can’t make sense of the second sentence in particular. Is this just awkward wording, or is there something subtle I’m not following?

[Eldonauran]

Normally a whip is not an effective weapon (ie, does no damage) to a creature with natural armor of at least +3, or something else with at least +1 AC (from wearing armor). The second sentence is just clarifying that it is allowing the Lasher to ignore that rule. Just grant the Lasher the Whip Mastery (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat/) feat instead and you'll be fine.

As for subdual damage, that is just 3.0e lingo for nonlethal damage.

[Red Fel]

Normally a whip is not an effective weapon (ie, does no damage) to a creature with natural armor of at least +3, or something else with at least +1 AC (from wearing armor). The second sentence is just clarifying that it is allowing the Lasher to ignore that rule. Just grant the Lasher the Whip Mastery (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat/) feat instead and you'll be fine.

As for subdual damage, that is just 3.0e lingo for nonlethal damage.

Another option is to play a PF Ranger with the Whip Combat Style from Inner Sea Combat (look at the bottom here (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/ranger-combat-styles/)). That adds EWP (Whip), Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, and Greater Whip Mastery, among others.

Still another option is the Vigilante (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/) class, which can gain Whip Mastery as a Vigilante talent. And still another is to play a Cavalier who is a member of the Order of the Whip (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/paizo-cavalier-orders/order-of-the-whip-cavalier-order/). And still another is to play a non-Good character and take the Pain Taster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pain-taster/) PrC.

Or, yeah, just literally take the Whip Mastery feat.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Normally a whip is not an effective weapon (ie, does no damage) to a creature with natural armor of at least +3, or something else with at least +1 AC (from wearing armor). The second sentence is just clarifying that it is allowing the Lasher to ignore that rule.

Okay, thanks. Does this mean that a whip can penetrate natural armor of +1 or +2? If so, that’s a niche rule I never knew.


Originally Posted by Red Fel
Another option is to play a PF Ranger with the Whip Combat Style from Inner Sea Combat (look at the bottom here). That adds EWP (Whip), Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, and Greater Whip Mastery, among others.

This sounds ideal…except that I don’t have that book, and can’t find this combat style on Archives of Nethys. I see the version you linked, but it doesn't give the full text.

So, what deity is associated with the whip style? And are there any deity-specific requirements other than worship?

[Eldonauran]

Okay, thanks. Does this mean that a whip can penetrate natural armor of +1 or +2? If so, that’s a niche rule I never knew.As far as I know, that has always been the case. It takes pretty thick skin (natural armor) or actual armor to prevent damage from a whip.


This sounds ideal…except that I don’t have that book, and can’t find this combat style on Archives of Nethys. I see the version you linked, but it doesn't give the full text.

So, what deity is associated with the whip style? And are there any deity-specific requirements other than worship?Ranger Combat Styles (http://aonprd.com/RangerCombatStyles.aspx), specifically "Faithful (Calistria)".

[Palanan]

So, I appreciate the clarifications and the pointer about ranger combat styles.

Right now I'm thinking of going straight ranger into lasher, taking Weapon Finesse at 1st, EWP Whip for my combat style feat, and Weapon Focus at 3rd. I was thinking about taking Agile Maneuvers at 5th, since this will be a Dex build and Agile Maneuvers seems to fit. But is there anything else I should consider at 5th?

[stack]

If you are performing a maneuver with a finesse weapon, such as tripping with a whip, you don't need agile maneuvers.

[Red Fel]

Also, just thought I'd point out that the PF Pyrokineticist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/pyrokineticist/) PrC is way better than the 3e version. It gets the Fire Lash at first level, which works with any Whip-related feats. So, if you ever want to switch from Ranger to Soulknife/Pyro for that sweet, sweet flaming whip from Hells action... It's a thing.

[Psyren]

Is your race locked in? Some races like Half-Elf and Hobgoblin can get you whip proficiency for free. It's a moot point if you're staying with ranger, but it might come in handy if you wanted to try a different class, like a Magus, Inquisitor, or Bard.

[Palanan]

Originally posted by stack
If you are performing a maneuver with a finesse weapon, such as tripping with a whip, you don't need agile maneuvers.

I was thinking more the general utility of having a high Dex for CMB/CMD, rather than the middling Str the character will likely have.

That said, I’m not fixed on Agile Maneuvers by any means, and I’d be glad of other suggestions.


Originally Posted by Red Fel
So, if you ever want to switch from Ranger to Soulknife/Pyro….

Probably not for this character, but I’ll keep it in mind.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Is your race locked in? Some races like Half-Elf and Hobgoblin can get you whip proficiency for free.

I didn’t realize that, thanks. I’m actually using a custom race for this build, since the campaign is in a homebrew setting, but a half-elf magus channeling through a whip is a delicious thought.

[stack]

Magus really is the best for whip builds; wand wielder arcana + wand of true strike + spell combat nets you +18 to a maneuver for reasonable cost and the whips reach is nice for landing spell strike at levels where the defensive casting check is non-trivial.

For general use, you could look at serpent lash (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/serpent-lash-combat/) (and greater (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-serpent-lash-combat/)). Downside is it requires a standard action, so will age poorly. Doesn't combo with Lashing Whip from Lasher either.

Dirty fighting (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat/) is good for maneuver use in general, though with a whip AOOs should be less of an issue due to your reach. You also get improved trip/disarm for free from lasher, but due to the feat changes and the way Paizo writes feats, you would still need something to cover Combat Expertise (which Dirty Fighting covers) when taking the Greater (maneuver) feats unless you houserule around this or cover it in your adaptation of the class.