Skills keyed from non-standard abilities...

[ShurikVch]

I noticed: sometimes, list of class skills show key abilities which are different from those in the skill's description in Player's Handbook (or SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/skills.htm))

There are those I found so far:

Master Arcane Artisan (Wis)
Disciple of Baalzebul (Wis)
Gnome Artificer (Wis)Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis (Int)
Waveservant (Int)
Windwalker (Int)Ballisteer (Wis)
Dragonslayer (Wis)
Dragonstalker (Wis)
Knight of the Iron Glacier (Wis)Divine Seeker (Dex)
Guild Thief (Dex)
Kobold Paragon (Dex)
Mask of Johydee (Dex)
Nightshade (Dex)
Poison Fist (Dex)
Psion-Kineticist (Dex)
Shadow Thief of Amn (Dex)
Soulreaver (Dex)
Swift Scion (Dex)
Watch Detective (Dex)Watch Detective (Dex)Apostle of Peace (Wis)
Forsaker (Wis)
Nixie (Wis)Anointed Knight (Dex)
Flame Steward (Cha)Gnome Tricksters (Dex)Cavalier (Int)
Devoted Defender (Int)
Exotic Weapon Master (Int)
Fist of Hextor (Int)
Master Thrower (Int)
Martyred Champion of Ilmater (Int)
Ogre (Int)
Ravager (Int)
Talontar Blightlord (Int)Deep Avenger (Cha)Fiend Slayer (Wis)
Shadow (Wis)Warmaster (Cha)Master Siege Engineer (Wis)(Classes are, mostly, PrC, but also few monstrous classes, and at least one base - Psion)

Question: how will it work if you're multiclass into a class which have skill keyed from a different ability?
(Especially Heal! :smallwink:)

Also:
Deep Avenger have their Ride skill keyed on Charisma! :smallcool:
Ravager and Ogre are got a Profession skill (!) keyed on their Intelligence (!!!) :smallamused:

[gkathellar]

Those are typos.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I believe undead use CHA instead of CON for skill checks?

EDIT: Just Concentration:



Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.

[Thurbane]

Great resource!

One to add: Ancestral Knowledge feat (RoS p.136): can use Wis in place of Int for Knowledge checks (as well as allowing checks untrained).

Looks like I misunderstood the thread

[Ashtagon]

As CBN noted, those are all typos. The undead type allows use of Cha for the only nominally Con skill (Concentration). The DMG notes that the DM is entitled to call for whatever ability they feel is most appropriate, and iirc the example given is using Con for endurance swimming instead of Str, with the implication that Str should be primarily about "sprint" swimming as opposed to "marathon" swimming. Allowing barbarians to use Str for Intimidation is probably the other most often cited example of using that rule.

There's probably a few feats that allow for alternate abilities to be used for a skill.

[ShurikVch]

I believe undead use CHA instead of CON for skill checks?

EDIT: Just Concentration:Yes.
And you wasn't incorrect initially - Concentration just happened to be the only single skill keyed on Constitution
Master Vampire PrC - from Libris Mortis - have Concentration (Cha), but I omitted it, because - hey, Undead!



Those are typos.Should I remind - until the Errata or revise, it's still RAW?
It may be canceled by Rule 0, by table agreement, or by sheer oversight - but it wouldn't make it any less official

Especially glaring example there is Ravager - it was both errated (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/snferratav2.zip) and revised (in the Complete Warrior), but "Profession (Int)" stayed in it's place

Also, I sorta can understand how they could mix "adjacent" abilities - like Wis instead Int (or Cha).
But Dex instead Int?..

Besides, Tactile Trapsmith already allow to use Dex for Disable Device.
Why some classes couldn't have it "inbuilt"?
Are you sure it wasn't intended this way?

P. S.
The one real typo - which I seen not in books or magazines, but some online pdf - was Move Silently (Sex) :smallredface:
I wonder: how much players seen it and said something like "My PC have it at 18!" :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[gkathellar]

Should I remind - until the Errata or revise, it's still RAW?

Heal-by-drowning is RAW, but you’d also have a hard time finding anyone who endorses playing with it. The legalistic reading doesn’t matter if it’s transparently wrong.

And this isn’t even a legalistic interpretation. There are no rules for class skill lists giving alternate ability scores to skills, and as you observe in your first post, giving such authoritative power to deviations in those lists becomes incoherent in light of multiclassing. Class skill lists are there to be class skill lists.


Why some classes couldn't have it "inbuilt"?

Because (a) it’s never alluded to anywhere in the rules and (b) including something so easy for readers to miss would be such an amazingly terrible editing decision that it beggars belief. WotC’s editing makes occasional frequent mistakes, but generally doesn’t give the impression that the style guide was written by a blind platypus.

[ShurikVch]

Heal-by-drowning is RAW, but you’d also have a hard time finding anyone who endorses playing with it. The legalistic reading doesn’t matter if it’s transparently wrong.Also, it's useless: what's the point to getting to 0 hp, if you're dead shortly after?


And this isn’t even a legalistic interpretation. There are no rules for class skill lists giving alternate ability scores to skillsUndead and Concentration


Because (a) it’s never alluded to anywhere in the rulesVampire Lord PrC have Concentration (Cha) on it's skill list


(b) including something so easy for readers to miss would be such an amazingly terrible editing decision that it beggars belief. WotC’s editing makes occasional frequent mistakes, but generally doesn’t give the impression that the style guide was written by a blind platypus.Oozemaster PrC got scaling Charisma penalty, which isn't written anywhere but it's table (5-14: The Oozemaster); people who're don't look in that table (because "What's the point? Text trumps it anyway!") could easily miss that part
That's just off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure there would be other examples of WotC wondrous editing (cough cough Tome of Battle Errata cough cough)

EDIT:
Actually, using the Vampire Lord as example, we may conclude the indicated ability should supersede any previous one (and in case you would go <whatever class>/Anointed Knight/Flame Steward - it would shift Heal from Wis to Dex, then - to Cha)

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's interesting that for all skills with multiple errors (except Heal) the same error has been made. Was someone using a bad list, or is this WotC "intuitive editing" at work?

There doesn't appear to be an obvious relation between the errors and skills that would have been listed before or after alphabetically (as in, a skill gets replaced and the ability score is not adjusted). Disable Device, for example, isn't near any Dex-based skills, the closest being Balance and Hide, respectively six and seven places up and down the list.

Disable Device was probably confused with Open Lock. For the others, I have no excuse. Craft and Profession especially make very little sense. Why do ogres have INT-based Profession when their only non-penalized mental stat is Wisdom?


For some of these, I'd probably allow their use, but for others, not so much. The Disable Device/Open Lock difference is stupid as hell, and I would scrap that, but if not, then obviously swapping the ability scores around is definitely the wrong thing to do (makes them more similar instead of more distinct).