Most Broken Dragon Magazine Content

[ColorBlindNinja]

Exactly what the thread title asks.

What is the most broken content in Dragon Magazine?

Both broken as in bad and broken as in way too good.

I'll add examples to the spoiler tag:


Mystic (Bad)
Unseelie Fey (OP)
Half-Minotaur (OP)
Psiotheurgist (OP)
Theurgic Specialist (Dragon#325, OP)
Aligned Spellcaster (Dragon #357, OP)
Tome Dragon (Dragon #343, OP)
Gheden (Dragon #313, OP)
Trollblooded (Dragon #319, OP)
Dragon Magazine #306 Templates (OP)
Martial Monk (#310, OP)
Archdragon templates (#321, OP)
Spellhoarding (#313, OP)
Riddled (#313, OP)
Faerie Mysteries Initiate (OP)
Sculpt Self (OP)
Spell Side Effects (OP)
Hatchlings (Dragon Magazine #320, OP)
Awakened Animals (Dragon Magazine #293, OP)
Pugilist Fighter (Dragon Magazine #310, OP)
War Spells (OP)
Bodyguard (#310, Bad)
Easy Metamagic (OP)
Bravado (#328, 44, OP)
Divine Gestures (#325, 91, OP)
Free-Spirited(#324, 43, OP)
Fussy(#328, 42, OP)
Love of Nature (#324, 93, OP)
Loudmouth(#324, 98, OP)
Metal Intolerance (#324, 93, OP)
Stubby Fingers (#328, 42, OP)
Half-Blood Outcast (#328, 43, OP)
Crescent Knife (#275, OP)
Scourge (#275, OP)
Dvati (OP or Bad?)
Tahtoalethi, aka Wishfern (Dragon 357 pg. 58, OP)
Chicken Infested (OP)
Rudimentary Intelligence (OP)
Ring of Defense (Dragon 290, OP)
Codex Hammer (Dragon 297, OP)
Dyrr's Impervious Vestment (Dragon 312, OP)
Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon 314, OP)
Ship in a Bottle (Dragon 318, OP)
Eagle Stones (Dragon Magazine #324, OP)
Runes (Dragon Magazine #324, OP)
Knowstones (Dragon Magazine #333, OP)

[Mike Miller]

The vast majority is fine. People talk about all the OP stuff and the mag gets a bad reputation. It is the lack of familiarity that makes people not want to use it, because again they only hear about the exceptional material. Same with Psionics and ToB. Tables don't use them for lousy reasons.

With that irksome tidbit out of the way... Unseelie fey comes to mind as generally OP. The first PrC of the magazine (the Mystic) is broken in a bad way - it is a wizard PrC that doesn't advance casting. I must be tired because I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The vast majority is fine. People talk about all the OP stuff and the mag gets a bad reputation. It is the lack of familiarity that makes people not want to use it, because again they only hear about the exceptional material. Same with Psionics and ToB. Tables don't use them for lousy reasons.

That's an interesting insight, thank you for sharing it.


With that irksome tidbit out of the way... Unseelie fey comes to mind as generally OP. The first PrC of the magazine (the Mystic) is broken in a bad way - it is a wizard PrC that doesn't advance casting. I must be tired because I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

Well, the Mystic certainly qualifies. :smallsmile:

But what in particular is OP about the Unseelie Fey? I would say it's abilities are powerful, but I wouldn't use it as my race 95% of the time.

[Troacctid]

I think half-minotaur is pretty egregious. I don't know what possessed them to make it give +12 Strength and a size increase for +1 LA. I'd say half-ogre as well, but it was superseded by a much more reasonable version in Races of Destiny.

The Psiotheurgist feat is crazy strong too, and the +0 LA templates in #306 are definitely underpriced.

I actually think the overall power level of the magazines is pretty good, though. There are a lot of misses, of course, mostly on the underpowered side, but not any more than you'd find in the books. For the most part, the material in Dragon is well-balanced and interesting.


With that irksome tidbit out of the way... Unseelie fey comes to mind as generally OP.
I disagree with this. Under 3.0 rules, there was no such thing as a level adjustment, so unseelie fey had the "same" LA as templates like lycanthrope and half-celestial. In that context, it's quite reasonable IMO.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think half-minotaur is pretty egregious. I don't know what possessed them to make it give +12 Strength and a size increase for +1 LA. I'd say half-ogre as well, but it was superseded by a much more reasonable version in Races of Destiny.

Does Half-Minotaur have any penalties? It sounds like a strictly beatstick race.


The Psiotheurgist feat is crazy strong too,

What does it do?


and the +0 LA templates in #306 are definitely underpriced.

Can you go into details?


I actually think the overall power level of the magazines is pretty good, though. There are a lot of misses, of course, mostly on the underpowered side, but not any more than you'd find in the books. For the most part, the material in Dragon is well-balanced and interesting.

That's the conclusion I'm rapidly arriving at.



I disagree with this. Under 3.0 rules, there was no such thing as a level adjustment, so unseelie fey had the "same" LA as templates like lycanthrope and half-celestial. In that context, it's quite reasonable IMO.

It was updated to 3.5 in the Dragon Compendium.

[Anthrowhale]

Theurgic Specialist (Dragon#325) allows you to add caster levels in a specialist school. Drow of the Underdark gives you Abyssal Specialist. Aligned Spellcaster (Dragon #357) makes all of your spells have one of your alignments. Put them together and you can cast spells well above normal caster level. This isn't as broken as Faerun Circle Magic, but it's quite potent beyond level 6.

Psiotheurgist (Dragon #349) is similar.

Tome Dragon (Dragon #343) gives free metamagic via Shapechange or similar.

Knowstones (Dragon #333) significantly expands spell access for Sorcerers.

Gheden (Dragon #313) makes you immune to nonlethal damage. Combine with a source of regeneration (like troll-blooded in Dragon #319) for immunity to damage.

[Troacctid]

Does Half-Minotaur have any penalties? It sounds like a strictly beatstick race.
Total ability modifiers for a Medium creature are +12 Str, +6 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int. It also gives +4 natural armor, scent, and a natural gore attack. So definitely not just for beatsticks—most gishes can use it too, and frankly, even if you weren't a gish...you are now.


What does it do?
Psiotheurgy stacks your caster level and manifester level together, allowing you to reach ridiculous numbers with Cerebremancer.


Can you go into details?
D306 has a collection of +0 LA templates like arctic and magic-blooded that give ability score boosts and other bonuses at very little cost.


It was updated to 3.5 in the Dragon Compendium.
Yes, but Dragon Compendium failed to update the level adjustment for any of the pre-update templates it reprinted. That's just an editing error. If you go by that standard, then unseelie fey is probably the least broken template in the book.

[WhamBamSam]

Martial Monk (310) is pretty hard to say no to in most mundane builds.

The Spellhoarding and Riddled Dragon Psychoses (313) have a lot of potential to be borked, especially if you rule Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons, but even for full-on RHD and LA dragon PCs, and certainly on the DM's end.

The Archdragon templates (321) are really under-CRed on the other side of the screen.

There are LA+0 Giants in some Dragon Mag or other, which isn't really broken on its own, but Primordial Giant is a thing.

[Troacctid]

There are LA+0 Giants in some Dragon Mag or other, which isn't really broken on its own, but Primordial Giant is a thing.
I don't think cyclopeans actually have the giant type.

[Jowgen]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Int for bonus HP can be pretty egregious on an undead wizard.


Knowstones (Dragon #333) significantly expands spell access for Sorcerers.

Not really that bad when you consider MIC has runestaves that do the same thing, if only for 3 castings/day, but a lot cheaper, especially when getting spells in bulk. Unless you're going to cast a single spell over 6 times per day and only want the one high level option, you're better off getting some runestaves than a knowstone.

[flappeercraft]

There is the Pugilist fighter from Dragon #310 IIRC which converts all damage to nonlethal if you trade away a bonus feat for another class feature you can get from it. Trade another bonus feat and you can reduce the amount of nonlethal damage you take.

Troll-Blooded gives you regeneration 1/fire or acid at level 1, makes you nigh invulnerable at those levels.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Theurgic Specialist (Dragon#325) allows you to add caster levels in a specialist school. Drow of the Underdark gives you Abyssal Specialist. Aligned Spellcaster (Dragon #357) makes all of your spells have one of your alignments. Put them together and you can cast spells well above normal caster level. This isn't as broken as Faerun Circle Magic, but it's quite potent beyond level 6. Psiotheurgist (Dragon #349) is similar.

How much of a caster level boost are we talking about?



Tome Dragon (Dragon #343) gives free metamagic via Shapechange or similar.

Interesting.


Knowstones (Dragon #333) significantly expands spell access for Sorcerers.

Not sure how broken that is, though.


Gheden (Dragon #313) makes you immune to nonlethal damage. Combine with a source of regeneration (like troll-blooded in Dragon #319) for immunity to damage.

You can do the same with spells from other splats, but that certainly qualifies.


Total ability modifiers for a Medium creature are +12 Str, +6 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int. It also gives +4 natural armor, scent, and a natural gore attack. So definitely not just for beatsticks—most gishes can use it too, and frankly, even if you weren't a gish...you are now.

LA hurts for casters. Still, it's powerful.



Psiotheurgy stacks your caster level and manifester level together, allowing you to reach ridiculous numbers with Cerebremancer.

Just caster level boosts or gaining access to powers/spells early?



D306 has a collection of +0 LA templates like arctic and magic-blooded that give ability score boosts and other bonuses at very little cost.

I'm familiar with Magic-Blooded, what sort of ability score boosts do the others give?



Yes, but Dragon Compendium failed to update the level adjustment for any of the pre-update templates it reprinted. That's just an editing error. If you go by that standard, then unseelie fey is probably the least broken template in the book.

What other templates would be broken, then?

[Mike Miller]

What is wrong with unseelie fey, you ask? Here, have a discussion. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325905-Unseelie-Fey-OverPowered)

[Ruethgar]

Sculpt Self, the rules for custom prestige races with that feat are a mess, level one you can have Wish at will for example. I use it often, though typically only for thematic purposes or getting a certain ability to make the character play like I imagine them to be. I've used it to make a slowly recharging mana system with staff rules before, spell selection was severely limited, but it made the character feel like they were supposed to be from level 1.

Martial Monk lets you enter Jaunter at level 2. Plane shift at level 5 can be quite the game breaker. There are a fair number of other Fighter feats that are quite potent especially if you skip the prerequisites like that.

Spell Side Effects, with how they are worded, can be willingly applied to whatever magic the caster wants, while most of them aren't that potent, one of the ones is Rod of Wonder. Picking two Lightning Bolt side effects on Jolt can get to be a bit much fast, even if the DC is artificially lowered to 13, that's still a battering ram on a cantrip.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Int for bonus HP can be pretty egregious on an undead wizard.

I'll add that one to the list.


Sculpt Self, the rules for custom prestige races with that feat are a mess, level one you can have Wish at will for example. I use it often, though typically only for thematic purposes or getting a certain ability to make the character play like I imagine them to be. I've used it to make a slowly recharging mana system with staff rules before, spell selection was severely limited, but it made the character feel like they were supposed to be from level 1.

That certainly sounds like a mess.


Martial Monk lets you enter Jaunter at level 2. Plane shift at level 5 can be quite the game breaker. There are a fair number of other Fighter feats that are quite potent especially if you skip the prerequisites like that.

How would Plane Shift be broken at level 5?


Spell Side Effects, with how they are worded, can be willingly applied to whatever magic the caster wants, while most of them aren't that potent, one of the ones is Rod of Wonder. Picking two Lightning Bolt side effects on Jolt can get to be a bit much fast, even if the DC is artificially lowered to 13, that's still a battering ram on a cantrip.

Interesting.

[Cosi]

How would Plane Shift be broken at level 5?

If you're using it for travel, it's probably not any worse than it is at 9th. However, the oft-forgotten "creature touched" mode of plane shift is basically slay living if you pick The Elemental Plane of Fire or The Negative Energy Plane as the destination. That's not really all that impressive as a 9th level Cleric, but as 5th level Monk it's pretty nice.

Of course, Jaunter is a 4-level PrC that doesn't advance your actual class, so by taking it you're hosing yourself pretty badly in the long run. Though I suppose as a Monk you didn't have any great success to look forward to otherwise.

[WhamBamSam]

Jaunter is good enough to spend the levels on, especially as it'll get you into Shadowlord later on.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If you're using it for travel, it's probably not any worse than it is at 9th. However, the oft-forgotten "creature touched" mode of plane shift is basically slay living if you pick The Elemental Plane of Fire or The Negative Energy Plane as the destination. That's not really all that impressive as a 9th level Cleric, but as 5th level Monk it's pretty nice.

So, a save or die basically.


Of course, Jaunter is a 4-level PrC that doesn't advance your actual class, so by taking it you're hosing yourself pretty badly in the long run.

That does limit its usefulness, doesn't it?


Though I suppose as a Monk you didn't have any great success to look forward to otherwise.

Sad but true.

[Troacctid]

What other templates would be broken, then?
Literally all of them.


Sculpt Self, the rules for custom prestige races with that feat are a mess, level one you can have Wish at will for example. I use it often, though typically only for thematic purposes or getting a certain ability to make the character play like I imagine them to be. I've used it to make a slowly recharging mana system with staff rules before, spell selection was severely limited, but it made the character feel like they were supposed to be from level 1.
The custom modifications are under the purview of the DM, not the player, though. They're basically custom magic items. Honestly, the RAW seems reasonably well balanced to me, although the spellcasting is a bit odd.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Literally all of them.

Could you list some of the more egregious examples?

[Troacctid]

Could you list some of the more egregious examples?
All of them. All of them are egregious. It would just be a list of all the templates in the book.

I'll stress again though that it's an editing issue, not a game balance one.

[Ruethgar]

Just caster level boosts or gaining access to powers/spells early?
Needed to point out, the only spell in the entire game that has a caster level requirement is Fireball, you can have negative caster level and still sling spells. But let's look at it real quick. Major Bloodline 3/Sorcerer 1/Wilder 1/Cerebromancer 10/Mind Mage 8 caster/manifesting level is 40, more than some gods. If you are a kobold or a hatchling dragon or a white dragonspawn with bought-off LA, you get double ninths with that as well.


How would Plane Shift be broken at level 5?
Can get it at ECL 4 instead to save you the level. Also, I tend to build characters for E6 where that's pretty much the only access to Plane Shift you can get which is why it came to mind as an example.

Awakened Animals, Dragon Magazine #293. Cat, Lizard, Monkey, Rat, Toad all have their ECL set to 0. Even without applying templates first(Titanic, Magebred, Warbeast), 3 free RHD on top of your first class level breaks game balance by letting you enter many PrCs 3 levels earlier, plus some of those give you Weapon Finesse for free, and the feat from HD. If you pick an Advanced Awakened Monkey, you don't even have the drawback of tiny size for melee and you start with 2 more free RHD.

Since I mentioned it, Hatchling Dragons are the 0th age category of dragons and they never need to take a single level of dragon. Sure you miss out on natural weapons, flight, breath weapon, but you get your immunity and subtype at LA 0, plus all the fun things that come with True Dragon like Dragon Psychosis, also Dragon Magazine. Loredrake is another option that is no longer ambiguous for you to take as a DWK or w/e. Best option IMO is Bronze, water is no longer a hazard for you pretty much and you aren't vulnerable to an element. If Green defined the flight speed gained from having the air subtype, it would be a pretty good choice too.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Needed to point out, the only spell in the entire game that has a caster level requirement is Fireball, you can have negative caster level and still sling spells. But let's look at it real quick. Major Bloodline 3/Sorcerer 1/Wilder 1/Cerebromancer 10/Mind Mage 8 caster/manifesting level is 40, more than some gods. If you are a kobold or a hatchling dragon or a white dragonspawn with bought-off LA, you get double ninths with that as well.

40's pretty good.



Awakened Animals, Dragon Magazine #293. Cat, Lizard, Monkey, Rat, Toad all have their ECL set to 0. Even without applying templates first(Titanic, Magebred, Warbeast), 3 free RHD on top of your first class level breaks game balance by letting you enter many PrCs 3 levels earlier, plus some of those give you Weapon Finesse for free, and the feat from HD. If you pick an Advanced Awakened Monkey, you don't even have the drawback of tiny size for melee and you start with 2 more free RHD.

ECL or LA?


Since I mentioned it, Hatchling Dragons are the 0th age category of dragons and they never need to take a single level of dragon. Sure you miss out on natural weapons, flight, breath weapon, but you get your immunity and subtype at LA 0, plus all the fun things that come with True Dragon like Dragon Psychosis, also Dragon Magazine. Loredrake is another option that is no longer ambiguous for you to take as a DWK or w/e. Best option IMO is Bronze, water is no longer a hazard for you pretty much and you aren't vulnerable to an element. If Green defined the flight speed gained from having the air subtype, it would be a pretty good choice too.

Hatchling Dragons, what issue of Dragon Magazine are they from?

[Ruethgar]

ECL or LA?

Hatchling Dragons, what issue of Dragon Magazine are they from?

The article on Awakened Animals set the ECL to a fixed number. It was a 3.0 article so there was no LA. All of the other ECLs were overridden by the MMI 3.5, but since Awakened Animals never had their ECL/LA listed again, that is the only part still valid for 3.5.

Hatchlings are from Dragon Magazine #320 pg 36+ for metalic and #332 pg 26+ for chromatic.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The article on Awakened Animals set the ECL to a fixed number. It was a 3.0 article so there was no LA.

Hatchlings are from Dragon Magazine #320 pg 36+ for metalic and #332 pg 26+ for chromatic.

I see, thank you for explaining.

[Ruethgar]

While looking for the dragons, I came across DrM #310 and remembered the Shake it Off ability of the Pugilist Fighter, converts all damage to non-lethal, and without a work-around like Regeneration to keep you from being immune to some forms of damage. Would go swimmingly with Gheden mentioned earlier.

[Yogibear41]

Most of those dragon(type not magazine) templates have no LA so you can't even use them as a player anyway, and those theurgic feats aren't op at all. Saying if you combine X,Y, and Z and its op can be applied to TONS of things in DnD 3.5 that doesn't make the feat op on its own. To do that spellcasting boost trick using those 2 feats and the Drow of the underdark acf would require you to multiclass a decent number of levels to get a meaningful caster level boost anyway, which would drop your highest level spells known to you, potentially significantly depending on the nature of your build. I guess you could do some sort of mystic theurge build. I think using aligned caster to be able to use your specialist slots on any spell is much better than doing those caster level boosts anyway.

Half-minotaur is ridiculous, it makes you stronger than a regular Minotaur.....


Troll-Blooded is good but not broken, unless you combine it with other stuff to make it broken. Pretty easy for a 1st level barbarian to knock you out, then light a torch and smack you with it to kill you.

Also the Pugilists shake it off is incredibly poorly worded:

"the pugilist develops non-lethal damage only"

Develops? what?

[unseenmage]

War Spells and the War Magic Study feat are presented in Dragon 309 page 44.

Here's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?306567-War-Spells!-Discussion-and-Application) exploring their 'value'. (hint: they're like custom magic items)

[SangoProduction]

Bodyguard in #230 is also broken in the bad way, because it's only got 1 class feature (which admittedly can be taken at level 1), which lets you share a shield/dodge bonus (from combat expertise) with a single target who is adjacent to you.
Not in reach. Just adjacent. "OK buddy, I know I have tentacles for arms, and am the size of a continent, but please get under my big to so that I can protect your with a piddly AC bonus which basically takes me out of the fight as a martial character."

I mean, you've got to admit that part of the reason the class is bad is the meta of D&D heavily disfavoring defense, instead opting for the ARPG method of "obliterate everything and hope you never get touched" method. But even for a "protect the part" style of combat, it's much more effective to area deny with reach weapons than it is to try and shove your shield in someone's face.


Branch Dancer is such a fun...but utterly impractical prestige class, who's entire identity is "I is tree. Tree is I." And in having a purely flavor-based identity, it completely lacks any practicality, outside of an NPC where the DM can set it up so that it's actually relevant. Like...in a forest...or...in a forest...But possibly even in a forest.

It can work with Feather Token:Tree, but then you're paying 400 gp a pop, and the enemy can then just walk away, and not even be affected.

[Bronk]

Branch Dancer is such a fun...but utterly impractical prestige class, who's entire identity is "I is tree. Tree is I." And in having a purely flavor-based identity, it completely lacks any practicality, outside of an NPC where the DM can set it up so that it's actually relevant. Like...in a forest...or...in a forest...But possibly even in a forest.

It can work with Feather Token:Tree, but then you're paying 400 gp a pop, and the enemy can then just walk away, and not even be affected.

I thought it was a fun class too! It works great as a sniper - as long as you're near a tree. Turns out being in, next to, or under, and behind a big tree gives snipers a huge boost.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23623350&postcount=15

I also liked the ability to make trees younger. It's just neat, and although it's restricted to trees, its an ability that doesn't come up much.

Branch Dancing gives you the equivalent of an exotic weapon proficiency feat, plus the damage on those branches starts at 1d8 and later 1d10 regardless of the character's size.

As an addition to the list, there are all sorts of things you can do with the commoner flaws from Dragon 330. Chicken Infested is neat, because not only can you create real chickens out of nothing, when you think of it, you're also plucking souls out of the Bastion of Unborn Souls. Weresheep is a cheap way to get lycanthrope buffs. The Delicious flaw is one of the few ways to draw attacks away from other characters in a monster fight. Stuff like that.

[Anthrowhale]

D306 has a collection of +0 LA templates like arctic and magic-blooded that give ability score boosts and other bonuses at very little cost.

These are scoped to only PHB races. Arctic gives Con+2/Cha-2 while magic-blooded gives Cha+2/Wis-2. Since no phb races gives a Cha bonus magic-blooded doesn't seem that broken? It seems no more broken than allowing players to use the racial variants in the monster manual, for example.

Arctic allows things like a double dwarf. It's good but it still feels underwhelming compared to other things on this list.



Not really that bad when you consider MIC has runestaves that do the same thing, if only for 3 castings/day, but a lot cheaper, especially when getting spells in bulk. Unless you're going to cast a single spell over 6 times per day and only want the one high level option, you're better off getting some runestaves than a knowstone.

I hadn't appreciated that---good to know. It looks like a knowstones fill a gap for 1st and 2nd level spells.


There is the Pugilist fighter from Dragon #310 IIRC which converts all damage to nonlethal if you trade away a bonus feat for another class feature you can get from it.

I used to think this, then someone pointed out the correction in Dragon #313 page 8. In short "Shake it Off" becomes fast healing 1 for nonlethal damage and reduces all stuns by 1 round. That still leaves 'Iron Jaw' which in combination with Troll-Blooded provides an effecter DR <con bonus>/fire or acid which is fairly absurd at level 1.


How much of a caster level boost are we talking about?
The easy build is something like Wizard [Abysal Specialist, Aligned[evil]] 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 3 which leaves you with double 9s. The ur-priest caster level of 14 becomes 18 with practiced spellcaster[Ur-priest]. The wizard caster level is 19. For evil spells (i.e. almost every spell), this becomes caster level 37.

[noob]

These are scoped to only PHB races. Arctic gives Con+2/Cha-2 while magic-blooded gives Cha+2/Wis-2. Since no phb races gives a Cha bonus magic-blooded doesn't seem that broken? It seems no more broken than allowing players to use the racial variants in the monster manual, for example.

Arctic allows things like a double dwarf. It's good but it still feels underwhelming compared to other things on this list.


I hadn't appreciated that---good to know. It looks like a knowstones fill a gap for 1st and 2nd level spells.


I used to think this, then someone pointed out the correction in Dragon #313 page 8. In short "Shake it Off" becomes fast healing 1 for nonlethal damage and reduces all stuns by 1 round. That still leaves 'Iron Jaw' which in combination with Troll-Blooded provides an effecter DR <con bonus>/fire or acid which is fairly absurd at level 1.


The easy build is something like Wizard [Abysal Specialist, Aligned[evil]] 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 3 which leaves you with double 9s. The ur-priest caster level of 14 becomes 18 with practiced spellcaster[Ur-priest]. The wizard caster level is 19. For evil spells (i.e. almost every spell), this becomes caster level 37.
If you add spellthief and master spellthief it becomes even more epic.(and you still get double nines)

[emeraldstreak]

Not seeing Easy Metamagic on the list.

As for Half-Minotaur/Half-Ogre, they are ok in optimized parties, but they will wreck a normal DM's campaign.

[Kalkra]

Diversified Casting from Dragon 325 seems broken bad, outside of some cheesy shenanigans. It adds three spells from a forbidden school to you spell list, and lets you use spell-completion and spell-trigger items for those spells. Of course forbidden schools aren't removed from your list in the first place, but hey, it's Dragon.

[eggynack]

Flaws. It's pretty well known that the classic UA flaws are pretty easy to take in such a way that they don't significantly impact your character, and they tend to read a bit like free feats as a result. Dragon magazine flaws are even more that. I'ma just list a bunch that I have in my handbook that strike me as particularly egregious. These are kinda druid specific, but I have to think that other builds could pull exactly this sort of nonsense in a different way, and plenty are excellent on other builds.


Bravado (#328, 44): You lose access to dodge bonuses. You'd have to build a character in a certain way just to be impacted by this.

Cold/hot blooded (#324, 93): You take two extra damage from hot/cold effects and fail checks against high/low temperatures. Neither of these things is impactful at all, especially given how narrowly they occur, and they're really easy to mitigate.

Divine Gestures (#325, 91): You face spell failure chance. Luminous armor is right there, being great, and plenty of divine casting builds just don't make use of armor as a result.

Free-Spirited(#324, 43): The weight of your gear is doubled for the purpose of load and your ACP is doubled as well. Like the above but way more so. This is often just not going to do anything.

Fussy(#328, 42): You get sickened by potions and have a -4 to save against ingested poisons. Both potions and ingested poisons kinda suck. And, if you care, both of these can be trivially bypassed by a druid through iron constitution and eventual poison immunity. I actually forgot about the first in the handbook. I should add that.

Honorable (#324, 96): You get a -4 to attack rolls against enemies that haven't attacked or challenged you. There are just so many ways to engage opponents that don't involve attack rolls, and that's generally how you want to start off in combat anyway. This is like a weird combo of shaky and noncombatant that only hurts you early in combat, and only sometimes that.

Love of Nature (#324, 93): This one is kinda funny because it's specifically meant for druids and they're one of the classes best at bypassing it. You make a DC 12 will save when attacking an animal, plant, or vermin, or lose a turn. Even if you needed to attack enemies to do things in combat, and even if you didn't have a great will save, the type limitation here is so... limited. Animals, plants, and vermin aren't exactly the biggest threats. Except, of course, you very much don't have to attack enemies to have an impact, and your will save is among the best in the game, so this just doesn't do much of anything.

Loudmouth(#324, 98): You take a -4 to diplomacy and move silently. This is another one of those flaws where you'd have to build towards it being relevant. Most builds out there are going to "dump" diplomacy and move silently.

Metal Intolerance (#324, 93): You take an extra point of damage against metal weapons. This just doesn't mean all that much.

Stubby Fingers (#328, 42): You take a -4 to attack rolls with light or one-handed weapons (besides natural weapons and unarmed strikes), and to disable device, open lock, sleight of hand, and use rope. You also have to be a dwarf, gnome, or halfling. This one is just inexplicable to me. So few builds use light or one-handed weapons that aren't natural or unarmed strikes. How is this a penalty in the vast majority of cases? Those skills too are not going to feature on most builds, particularly cause they ain't great. This is like some kinda weird penalty specifically to rogues, for a flaw that doesn't demand that you be a rogue. I guess the assumption is that going dwarf, gnome, or halfling force you to play a rogue? It's a bizarre assumption.


So, yeah, exceptionally broken stuff, and there's probably more where that came from. Oh, I just noticed a new one I might add, which is half-blood outcast (#328, 43), a flaw for half-elves and half-orcs that gives a -2 to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks when an elf or orc respectively is in your line of sight. It's not a non-existent penalty, but the context of it is pretty frigging narrow.

[ColorBlindNinja]

War Spells and the War Magic Study feat are presented in Dragon 309 page 44.

Here's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?306567-War-Spells!-Discussion-and-Application) exploring their 'value'. (hint: they're like custom magic items)

I'll add War Spells to the list.


Bodyguard in #230 is also broken in the bad way, because it's only got 1 class feature (which admittedly can be taken at level 1), which lets you share a shield/dodge bonus (from combat expertise) with a single target who is adjacent to you.
Not in reach. Just adjacent. "OK buddy, I know I have tentacles for arms, and am the size of a continent, but please get under my big to so that I can protect your with a piddly AC bonus which basically takes me out of the fight as a martial character."

I mean, you've got to admit that part of the reason the class is bad is the meta of D&D heavily disfavoring defense, instead opting for the ARPG method of "obliterate everything and hope you never get touched" method. But even for a "protect the part" style of combat, it's much more effective to area deny with reach weapons than it is to try and shove your shield in someone's face.

Thanks, I'll add it to the list.



Branch Dancer is such a fun...but utterly impractical prestige class, who's entire identity is "I is tree. Tree is I." And in having a purely flavor-based identity, it completely lacks any practicality, outside of an NPC where the DM can set it up so that it's actually relevant. Like...in a forest...or...in a forest...But possibly even in a forest.

It can work with Feather Token:Tree, but then you're paying 400 gp a pop, and the enemy can then just walk away, and not even be affected.

Is Branch Dancer bad enough to add to the list?

EDIT:


These are scoped to only PHB races. Arctic gives Con+2/Cha-2 while magic-blooded gives Cha+2/Wis-2. Since no phb races gives a Cha bonus magic-blooded doesn't seem that broken? It seems no more broken than allowing players to use the racial variants in the monster manual, for example.

Arctic allows things like a double dwarf. It's good but it still feels underwhelming compared to other things on this list.

I see.



The easy build is something like Wizard [Abysal Specialist, Aligned[evil]] 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 3 which leaves you with double 9s. The ur-priest caster level of 14 becomes 18 with practiced spellcaster[Ur-priest]. The wizard caster level is 19. For evil spells (i.e. almost every spell), this becomes caster level 37.

Thanks for clarifying.


Not seeing Easy Metamagic on the list.

I'll add it.


As for Half-Minotaur/Half-Ogre, they are ok in optimized parties, but they will wreck a normal DM's campaign.

That's more or less what I suspected.


Diversified Casting from Dragon 325 seems broken bad, outside of some cheesy shenanigans. It adds three spells from a forbidden school to you spell list, and lets you use spell-completion and spell-trigger items for those spells. Of course forbidden schools aren't removed from your list in the first place, but hey, it's Dragon.

I mean, would you say that Pathfinder allowing Wizards to prepare a spell from a banned school is broken?


Flaws. It's pretty well known that the classic UA flaws are pretty easy to take in such a way that they don't significantly impact your character, and they tend to read a bit like free feats as a result. Dragon magazine flaws are even more that. I'ma just list a bunch that I have in my handbook that strike me as particularly egregious. These are kinda druid specific, but I have to think that other builds could pull exactly this sort of nonsense in a different way, and plenty are excellent on other builds.

They are pretty much free feats.



Bravado (#328, 44): You lose access to dodge bonuses. You'd have to build a character in a certain way just to be impacted by this.

Cold/hot blooded (#324, 93): You take two extra damage from hot/cold effects and fail checks against high/low temperatures. Neither of these things is impactful at all, especially given how narrowly they occur, and they're really easy to mitigate.

Divine Gestures (#325, 91): You face spell failure chance. Luminous armor is right there, being great, and plenty of divine casting builds just don't make use of armor as a result.

Free-Spirited(#324, 43): The weight of your gear is doubled for the purpose of load and your ACP is doubled as well. Like the above but way more so. This is often just not going to do anything.

Fussy(#328, 42): You get sickened by potions and have a -4 to save against ingested poisons. Both potions and ingested poisons kinda suck. And, if you care, both of these can be trivially bypassed by a druid through iron constitution and eventual poison immunity. I actually forgot about the first in the handbook. I should add that.

Honorable (#324, 96): You get a -4 to attack rolls against enemies that haven't attacked or challenged you. There are just so many ways to engage opponents that don't involve attack rolls, and that's generally how you want to start off in combat anyway. This is like a weird combo of shaky and noncombatant that only hurts you early in combat, and only sometimes that.

Love of Nature (#324, 93): This one is kinda funny because it's specifically meant for druids and they're one of the classes best at bypassing it. You make a DC 12 will save when attacking an animal, plant, or vermin, or lose a turn. Even if you needed to attack enemies to do things in combat, and even if you didn't have a great will save, the type limitation here is so... limited. Animals, plants, and vermin aren't exactly the biggest threats. Except, of course, you very much don't have to attack enemies to have an impact, and your will save is among the best in the game, so this just doesn't do much of anything.

Loudmouth(#324, 98): You take a -4 to diplomacy and move silently. This is another one of those flaws where you'd have to build towards it being relevant. Most builds out there are going to "dump" diplomacy and move silently.

Metal Intolerance (#324, 93): You take an extra point of damage against metal weapons. This just doesn't mean all that much.

Stubby Fingers (#328, 42): You take a -4 to attack rolls with light or one-handed weapons (besides natural weapons and unarmed strikes), and to disable device, open lock, sleight of hand, and use rope. You also have to be a dwarf, gnome, or halfling. This one is just inexplicable to me. So few builds use light or one-handed weapons that aren't natural or unarmed strikes. How is this a penalty in the vast majority of cases? Those skills too are not going to feature on most builds, particularly cause they ain't great. This is like some kinda weird penalty specifically to rogues, for a flaw that doesn't demand that you be a rogue. I guess the assumption is that going dwarf, gnome, or halfling force you to play a rogue? It's a bizarre assumption.


Thanks, I'll have to remember some of those in the future.


So, yeah, exceptionally broken stuff, and there's probably more where that came from. Oh, I just noticed a new one I might add, which is half-blood outcast (#328, 43), a flaw for half-elves and half-orcs that gives a -2 to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks when an elf or orc respectively is in your line of sight. It's not a non-existent penalty, but the context of it is pretty frigging narrow.

That one just seems funny to me for some reason.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll add them to the list.

[umbergod]

Diversified Casting from Dragon 325 seems broken bad, outside of some cheesy shenanigans. It adds three spells from a forbidden school to you spell list, and lets you use spell-completion and spell-trigger items for those spells. Of course forbidden schools aren't removed from your list in the first place, but hey, it's Dragon.

It basically does tho. If you ban evocation, you have to resort to UMD rolls to activate any evocation scrolls/wands etc

[Troacctid]

It basically does tho. If you ban evocation, you have to resort to UMD rolls to activate any evocation scrolls/wands etc
Yeah. The feat works as advertised IMO. It's very specific, but not broken-bad.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yeah. The feat works as advertised IMO. It's very specific, but not broken-bad.

I mean, you can pick up spells like Invoke Magic and Chain Contingency. Seems like it's worth a feat if you banned the Evocation school.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. The spoiler tag in the OP should be up to date now.

[Yogibear41]

It basically does tho. If you ban evocation, you have to resort to UMD rolls to activate any evocation scrolls/wands etc


Other than a few evocation spells for utility, there are conjuration spells that are just as good at dealing damage if not better. That's one reason everyone says to ban evocation.

[Troacctid]

Other than a few evocation spells for utility, there are conjuration spells that are just as good at dealing damage if not better. That's one reason everyone says to ban evocation.
Evocation has contingency and all the force effects, plus some odd utility effects like sending. There's plenty of good evocation spells that aren't just variants of fireball or scorching ray.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Evocation has contingency and all the force effects

Well, Conjuration still has Orb of Force.

[Troacctid]

Well, Conjuration still has Orb of Force.
Hardly a substitute for floating disk, tiny hut, resilient sphere, wall of force, or forcecage.

[Cosi]

Jaunter is good enough to spend the levels on, especially as it'll get you into Shadowlord later on.

I don't see how Jaunter 4 is better for an aspiring Telflammar Shadowlord than Rogue 3 or Swordsage 3 and the Shadow-walker template.

[flappeercraft]

I used to think this, then someone pointed out the correction in Dragon #313 page 8. In short "Shake it Off" becomes fast healing 1 for nonlethal damage and reduces all stuns by 1 round. That still leaves 'Iron Jaw' which in combination with Troll-Blooded provides an effecter DR <con bonus>/fire or acid which is fairly absurd at level 1.

Huh, so they fixed their crap for once. I guess it's an ok thing then unless mixed with another damage to nonlethal conversion at which point its good, just not quite broken.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Hardly a substitute for floating disk, tiny hut, resilient sphere, wall of force, or forcecage.

Kinda moot, you said Evocation has all the force spells and that's not the case.

[Kalkra]

It basically does tho. If you ban evocation, you have to resort to UMD rolls to activate any evocation scrolls/wands etc

Technically, it's not even clear that the feat does anything. It just adds the spells to your spell list, and says "Note that this allows you to use...". Since I'm pretty sure that the spells were already on your spell list and adding them again doesn't change anything, it's possible that you can't use scrolls/wands etc. I mentioned the feat because of it doesn't do what it was intended to do (allow you to cast banned spells) and generally just doesn't work within the framework of the rules. It's broken in that regard. Whether or not it lets you activate items of three spells you would otherwise need UMD for, it doesn't let you cast the spells, which is what the description says it does.

[WhamBamSam]

I don't see how Jaunter 4 is better for an aspiring Telflammar Shadowlord than Rogue 3 or Swordsage 3 and the Shadow-walker template.Shadow-Walker involves LA which delays Shadowlord entry and is generally bad. There's more a case that qualifying with the higher order power of Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment: Something with Dimension Door), but even then, Shadowlord builds can be pretty feat tight.

The Benign Transposition SLA can be Quickened easily for your Swift Action Shadow Pounce. You'd also probably like a Monk level for Sun School anyway. I'd say Rogue 1/Martial Monk 1/Jaunter 4/Hit-and-Run Sneak Attack Fighter 1 looks pretty good as a Shadowlord entry point and unlike Shadow-Walkers, enters on time.


I mean, you can pick up spells like Invoke Magic and Chain Contingency. Seems like it's worth a feat if you banned the Evocation school.Also seems like picking 3 spells out of Enchantment might be nice on some builds (Charm Person to get into Mindbender, something, Mindrape as an example).

[ColorBlindNinja]

Also seems like picking 3 spells out of Enchantment might be nice on some builds (Charm Person to get into Mindbender, something, Mindrape as an example).

Yeah, Enchantment actually has a lot nice spells. They just tend to all be mind-effecting.

[gimley307]

There's the Crescent Knife from 275 that let's you roll 2 attacks per attack. Stacking precision damage (Dragonfire Inspiration? Sneak Attack?) and this gets out of hand quick.

[Mike Miller]

There's the Crescent Knife from 275 that let's you roll 2 attacks per attack. Stacking precision damage (Dragonfire Inspiration? Sneak Attack?) and this gets out of hand quick.

That's what passed for balance in early 3.0!

[ViperMagnum357]

There's the Crescent Knife from 275 that let's you roll 2 attacks per attack. Stacking precision damage (Dragonfire Inspiration? Sneak Attack?) and this gets out of hand quick.

Do not forget the Scourge from the same issue-same name but different rules, stats, and material composition to differentiate it from the all-metal weapons sharing a name released much later. Crap base stats as the Crescent Knife, and one-handed rather than Light, but it allows you to make THREE discrete attack rolls per attack, which can each gain precision damage, flat bonuses, and rider effects. Having a flat, extra -2 to your attack rolls when TWF/MWF'ing is a small price to pay for a 50% increase in killing power.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There's the Crescent Knife from 275 that let's you roll 2 attacks per attack. Stacking precision damage (Dragonfire Inspiration? Sneak Attack?) and this gets out of hand quick.



That's what passed for balance in early 3.0!



Do not forget the Scourge from the same issue-same name but different rules, stats, and material composition to differentiate it from the all-metal weapons sharing a name released much later. Crap base stats as the Crescent Knife, and one-handed rather than Light, but it allows you to make THREE discrete attack rolls per attack, which can each gain precision damage, flat bonuses, and rider effects. Having a flat, extra -2 to your attack rolls when TWF/MWF'ing is a small price to pay for a 50% increase in killing power.

I've added both to the list in the OP.

[animewatcha]

What's the page number for that scourge? Looked throughout 275 and couldn't find it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

What's the page number for that scourge? Looked throughout 275 and couldn't find it.

The weapon itself is on Pg. 45 and the table that shows its stats is on Pg. 43.

[SangoProduction]

Oops. I said Bodyguard was from 230. It was from 310, the same as the martial monk.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Oops. I said Bodyguard was from 230. It was from 310, the same as the martial monk.

Thanks, I'll fix that.

[Ruethgar]

Can’t believe it wasn’t mentioned, but Dvati are pretty OP, especially if you make them psionic to break the action economy even more. You can also Mindsight across an entire plane.

[unseenmage]

How about a mundane plant that grants wishes?

The Tahtoalethi, aka Wishfern, is a mystal plant that grants a wish every 1d100 years on the night of the winter solstice. Its seed sells for 25,000gp, and they're a pain to farm. They're from Dragon 357 pg. 58.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Can’t believe it wasn’t mentioned, but Dvati are pretty OP, especially if you make them psionic to break the action economy even more. You can also Mindsight across an entire plane.

Thanks, I'll add them to the list.

EDIT:


How about a mundane plant that grants wishes?

The Tahtoalethi, aka Wishfern, is a mystal plant that grants a wish every 1d100 years on the night of the winter solstice. Its seed sells for 25,000gp, and they're a pain to farm. They're from Dragon 357 pg. 58.

:smalleek:

Do they count as magic items? Or could you make one with Minor/Major Creation?

[Mike Miller]

Can’t believe it wasn’t mentioned, but Dvati are pretty OP, especially if you make them psionic to break the action economy even more. You can also Mindsight across an entire plane.

Dvati are not OP. If anything they are broken in a bad way. They share HP by splitting it in 2 and if one dies they both die. They can't both take actions - they split them. If one is casting, the other can't do anything, not even free actions, or the spell is lost. They are bad

[ColorBlindNinja]

Regarding the Wishfern, I think I've found a way to exploit it.

The only thing we care about is the flower.

Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm) can create "nonliving plant matter".

I'd assume that a flower would qualify for this. :smallwink:

[unseenmage]

Regarding the Wishfern, I think I've found a way to exploit it.

The only thing we care about is the flower.

Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm) can create "nonliving plant matter".

I'd assume that a flower would qualify for this. :smallwink:
I've got almost their whole write up in the plants thread in my extended sig.

Amusingly enough, plants count as objects for spell effects.

Could a Minor Servitor or Awakened Animated Object (topiaried into a humanoid shape for awaken construct) of a Wishfern use it's own wishes?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I've got almost their whole write up in the plants thread in my extended sig.

I believe I bookmarked one of those plant threads already. :smallsmile:


Amusingly enough, plants count as objects for spell effects.

Could a Minor Servitor or Awakened Animated Object (topiaried into a humanoid shape for awaken construct) of a Wishfern use it's own wishes?

I would presume so, but they only bloom once every 1d100 years. :smallfrown:

[Tainted_Scholar]

Regarding the Wishfern, I think I've found a way to exploit it.

The only thing we care about is the flower.

Flower?

Ferns don't have flowers. They reproduce via spores, this is basic biology. What kind of brown thumb fungus monkey wrote this thing!?

This makes me legitimately angry for some reason.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Flower?

Ferns don't have flowers. They reproduce via spores, this is basic biology. What kind of brown thumb fungus monkey wrote this thing!?

This makes me legitimately angry for some reason.

I love how we're talking about a plant that can warp space time itself and what's got you riled up is the fact that it shouldn't have a flower. :smallwink:

[Tainted_Scholar]

I love how we're talking about a plant that can warp space time itself and what's got you riled up is the fact that it shouldn't have a flower. :smallwink:

I just the feeling that they didn't exactly know that ferns don't have flowers.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I just the feeling that they didn't exactly know that ferns don't have flowers.

That is almost certainly the case. :smallsmile:

[tyckspoon]

Dvati are not OP. If anything they are broken in a bad way. They share HP by splitting it in 2 and if one dies they both die. They can't both take actions - they split them. If one is casting, the other can't do anything, not even free actions, or the spell is lost. They are bad

Depends on what you do with them. They're.. just kinda generally weird, but they can in fact have both bodies take two separate actions - the restrictions are specific to certain kinds of actions (such as mentioned spellcasting.) I believe you can, for example, make a Dvati martial initiator with Tome of Battle classes and have both bodies perform a Strike, or go psionic and spam powers that way, or.. well, pretty much anything other than casting spells, because that's the only mechanism called out as requiring both bodies to perform the same action.

[unseenmage]

Flower?

Ferns don't have flowers. They reproduce via spores, this is basic biology. What kind of brown thumb fungus monkey wrote this thing!?

This makes me legitimately angry for some reason.

To be fair, 'wishfern' is just it's common name. I'm sure the botanists in its home world all agree that it just looks like a fern. :smalltongue:

[Celestia]

Looking through this thread, it seems like the people on this forum have changed the definition of "overpowered" to mean "generally good." Most of the things in that list I would argue are not overpowered at all. Some can be if combined with other things, but that's those specific combination that are OP, not necessarily the individual parts.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Looking through this thread, it seems like the people on this forum have changed the definition of "overpowered" to mean "generally good." Most of the things in that list I would argue are not overpowered at all. Some can be if combined with other things, but that's those specific combination that are OP, not necessarily the individual parts.

Fair enough.

Part of the problem is that the term "overpowered" is pretty subjective.

[Troacctid]

Depends on what you do with them. They're.. just kinda generally weird, but they can in fact have both bodies take two separate actions - the restrictions are specific to certain kinds of actions (such as mentioned spellcasting.) I believe you can, for example, make a Dvati martial initiator with Tome of Battle classes and have both bodies perform a Strike, or go psionic and spam powers that way, or.. well, pretty much anything other than casting spells, because that's the only mechanism called out as requiring both bodies to perform the same action.
They're powerful, but still well within the realm of reason IMO, given the cost you're paying.


Thanks, I'll add them to the list.

EDIT:



:smalleek:

Do they count as magic items? Or could you make one with Minor/Major Creation?
They are explicitly magical, and require a DC 40 Profession (gardener) check to harvest. Failing the check instantly kills plant. It blooms for one night every 1d100 years and disintegrates if it's not picked that night. It can only grow in isolated forests and only if there is no other wishfern within 100 miles. If any living creature touches it at any point—an insect, anything—it has a 55% chance of instantly dying.

So you buy a seed for only slightly cheaper than a scroll of wish, plant it far away from civilization, find a way to prevent anyone or anything from touching it ever, and then if you successfully guarded it for an average of ~50 years (but it could be longer; a human could easily die of old age before their wishfern blooms), you can make an epic skill check in an otherwise useless skill. If you succeed, you get a single wish and your money back...but, like, y'know, 50 years after the end of the campaign.

Doesn't seem overpowered to me, TBH.


Regarding the Wishfern, I think I've found a way to exploit it.

The only thing we care about is the flower.

Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm) can create "nonliving plant matter".

I'd assume that a flower would qualify for this. :smallwink:
Nope, it is both magical and living.

[Celestia]

Fair enough.

Part of the problem is that the term "overpowered" is pretty subjective.
Sure, there's subjectivity at play, but some of these shouldn't even be questionable. I mean, take troll blooded, for instance. Not only does it require you to spend another feat slot on the worst feat in the game, but it also makes you fatigued while in sunlight. Regeneration is nice, but when it comes with two detriments, you can't really call it "overpowered."

[ColorBlindNinja]

Nope, it is both magical and living.

The flower itself is certainly nonliving if it's been plucked. Can you provide a citation that it's magical?

[Celestia]

The flower itself is certainly nonliving if it's been plucked. Can you provide a citation that it's magical?
Plants don't immediately die when removed from the ground.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Plants don't immediately die when removed from the ground.

We're not talking about removing a plant from the ground, we're talking about plucking a flower.

[Celestia]

We're not talking about removing a plant from the ground, we're talking about plucking a flower.
You know, I almost added in that extra bit of pedantry to my post but then I decided not to because, surely, my point was obvious enough and, surely, the other posters had enough integrity that such an effort wouldn't be necessary. Silly me.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You know, I almost added in that extra bit of pedantry to my post but then I decided not to because, surely, my point was obvious enough and, surely, the other posters had enough integrity that such an effort wouldn't be necessary. Silly me.

Then by that standard, what type of plant matter can you create with the spell?

[Celestia]

Then by that standard, what type of plant matter can you create with the spell?
The dead kind.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The dead kind.

Which a plucked flower is.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The dead kind.

And if a plucked flower doesn't meet that criteria, then what does?

[Celestia]

Which a plucked flower is.
If I stab you in the stomach, are you dead? No. Dying, maybe, but not dead. A flower does not immediately die upon being plucked.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If I stab you in the stomach, are you dead? No. Dying, maybe, but not dead. A flower does not immediately die upon being plucked.

If I tear off someone's arm, is that arm considered alive?

[Troacctid]

The flower itself is certainly nonliving if it's been plucked. Can you provide a citation that it's magical?
The plant's own description? It says it like five times. Also says it has to be perfectly undamaged.


Then by that standard, what type of plant matter can you create with the spell?
Lots of types. You're probably wearing clothes made of nonliving plant matter right now, for example.

[Tainted_Scholar]

If I stab you in the stomach, are you dead? No. Dying, maybe, but not dead. A flower does not immediately die upon being plucked.

So by your logic, my decapitated head isn't dead, just dying?

What the frigg is even the point your argument? Even if we did except your nitpicky definition of "dead plant", after a few minutes the flower will be dead. So just create a version of the flower that is dead.

EDIT; The wish flower doesn't have to be freshly plucked.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The plant's own description? It says it like five times.

By this standard, I couldn't use True Creation to make a Griffin steak because it's a "magical beast".



Lots of types. You're probably wearing clothes made of nonliving plant matter right now, for example.

So I can create a cotton shirt but not an apple?

Does that seem odd to anyone else?

[Tainted_Scholar]

The plant's own description? It says it like five times. Also says it has to be perfectly undamaged.

Nothing in the description says that the flower is magical, just the plant it comes from.

[Celestia]

If I tear off someone's arm, is that arm considered alive?
Yup. That's why there exist surgeries that can reattach severed limbs. If the arm died immediately, that wouldn't be possible. Of course, the arm will start dying very quickly, so those surgeries are often only partially successful.


So by your logic, my decapitated head isn't dead, just dying?
Yup. Historical records of execution by decapitation show that the heads continued moving and reacting to stimuli for up to minutes after removal.


What the frigg is even the point your argument? Even if we did except your nitpicky definition of "dead plant", after a few minutes the flower will be dead. So just create a version of the flower that is dead.

EDIT; The wish flower doesn't have to be freshly plucked.
Plants are notably hardier than people and can survive hours, days, or even weeks after being removed. Since the flower blooms at night and withers that morning, I would certainly say that it is still alive after being plucked.

[Troacctid]

By this standard, I couldn't use True Creation to make a Griffin steak because it's a "magical beast".
I think you could create it, but it wouldn't have any magical properties.


Nothing in the description says that the flower is magical, just the plant it comes from.
If you want to be pedantic, it also says that it only grants a wish if you properly harvest it with a successful skill check. A magically generated flower would not have been harvested at all, let alone with a successful skill check.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yup. That's why there exist surgeries that can reattach severed limbs. If the arm died immediately, that wouldn't be possible. Of course, the arm will start dying very quickly, so those surgeries are often only partially successful.


Yup. Historical records of execution by decapitation show that the heads continued moving and reacting to stimuli for up to minutes after removal.


Plants are notably hardier than people and can survive hours, days, or even weeks after being removed. Since the flower blooms at night and withers that morning, I would certainly say that it is still alive after being plucked.

So, I can't use True Creation to make an Orc arm?

I think this argument amounts to semantic nitpicking.


I think you could create it, but it wouldn't have any magical properties.

And your citation for this is?


If you want to be pedantic, it also says that it only grants a wish if you properly harvest it with a successful skill check. A magically generated flower would not have been harvested at all, let alone with a successful skill check.

The reason for that line is that you'll damage it otherwise.

Conjuring it magically out of thin air isn't going to harm the flower.

[Celestia]

So, I can't use True Creation to make an Orc arm?

I think this argument amounts to semantic nitpicking.
You could, but it would be a dead arm that can't be reattached to the orc if the orc happened to have regeneration.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Plants are notably hardier than people and can survive hours, days, or even weeks after being removed. Since the flower blooms at night and withers that morning, I would certainly say that it is still alive after being plucked.

It withers at sunrise, that's not a specific time frame. A flower harvested in the south pole could last for months before withering due to how long night lasts there.


I think you could create it, but it wouldn't have any magical properties.

The flower doesn't have any magical properties either. Nothing in it's description states that the flower is magical.

Simply coming from a magic plant doesn't automatically make it magical or make its properties magical. Dragons are incredibly magical, but dragonhide is explicitly nonmagic.


If you want to be pedantic, it also says that it only grants a wish if you properly harvest it with a successful skill check. A magically generated flower would not have been harvested at all, let alone with a successful skill check.

You need to make the skill check to ensure you don't damage the flower while harvesting it. Because if the flower is damaged, then it doesn't work. A flower magicked out of thin air will not be damaged.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You could, but it would be a dead arm that can't be reattached to the orc if the orc happened to have regeneration.

So, one can conjure a dead flower with Minor Creation, then. And nothing in the description that says that it can't grant wishes in a dead state, merely that it has to be undamaged.

[Tainted_Scholar]

You could, but it would be a dead arm that can't be reattached to the orc if the orc happened to have regeneration.

Hang on, there's to indicate that an arm has to still be alive in order to reattach it with regeneration.

[Celestia]

It withers at sunrise, that's not a specific time frame. A flower harvested in the south pole could last for months before withering due to how long night lasts there.
It can't grow in the south pole because there are no forests down there.


The flower doesn't have any magical properties either. Nothing in it's description states that the flower is magical.
The plant is explicitly magical. The flower is described as having "incredible power." And it grants wishes as casting the spell. Seems rather magical to me.


So, one can conjure a dead flower with Minor Creation, then. And nothing in the description that says that it can't grant wishes in a dead state, merely that it has to be undamaged.
Sure, you can make a flower, but not a flower than can cast spells.


Hang on, there's to indicate that an arm has to still be alive in order to reattach it with regeneration.
Hmm. It seems you're right. It's vaguely implied, but never actually stated.

[Troacctid]

You need to make the skill check to ensure you don't damage the flower while harvesting it. Because if the flower is damaged, then it doesn't work. A flower magicked out of thin air will not be damaged.
But it doesn't say it needs to be undamaged to grant a wish, it says it needs to be properly harvested. Moot point, though, I guess, since a dead flower is clearly not undamaged, so it fails either way.

[ColorBlindNinja]

But it doesn't say it needs to be undamaged to grant a wish, it says it needs to be properly harvested. Moot point, though, I guess, since a dead flower is clearly not undamaged, so it fails either way.

If semantic nitpicking is all you have, then this debate is over.

EDIT:


Sure, you can make a flower, but not a flower than can cast spells.

Citation needed.

[Celestia]

If semantic nitpicking is all you have, then this debate is over.

EDIT:



Citation needed.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm

You can create a nonmagical ... object ...
Casting spells is pretty darn magical.

[Ruethgar]

Dvati are not OP. If anything they are broken in a bad way. They share HP by splitting it in 2 and if one dies they both die. They can't both take actions - they split them. If one is casting, the other can't do anything, not even free actions, or the spell is lost. They are bad

Yeah, they actually get two full sets of actions. The 5E version split them. And manifesting is not casting so they can manifest simultaneously all they want.

[Tainted_Scholar]

It can't grow in the south pole because there are no forests down there.

Nurseries exist.

We can grow bananas in Iceland by harvesting the power of the volcanoes.


The plant is explicitly magical. The flower is described as having "incredible power." And it grants wishes as casting the spell. Seems rather magical to me.

The plant being magical doesn't mean that flower is. Just like how Dragons being magical doesn't make their hide magic.

It doesn't matter that the flower can grant a wish, it is entirely rules legal to get wish as an EX ability. The rules do not explicitly state that the flower is magical.

EDIT; And there are non-magic items that cast spells.


But it doesn't say it needs to be undamaged to grant a wish, it says it needs to be properly harvested. Moot point, though, I guess, since a dead flower is clearly not undamaged, so it fails either way.

The flower starts dying the moment you pluck it. Why would dying equal = undamaged, but dead = damaged?

You have to make the harvest check in order to not damage while plucking, so clearly it's referring to physical damage such as tearing the petals and the like.

[ColorBlindNinja]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm

Casting spells is pretty darn magical.

Is it? There a number of effects in the game that generate EX spell effects.

[Ruethgar]

I would have to agree that spellcasting ability is not inherently magical, it is most often Natural.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I would have to agree that spellcasting ability is not inherently magical, it is most often Natural.

In fact, in the Monster Manual V, spellcasting is explicitly described as EX, IIRC.

[unseenmage]

Oh wow. Making the Wishfern into a Construct makes it immune to dying. Meaning it suddenly can touch all the living creatures it wants. Because Constructs don't (can't even!) die. Constructs are destroyed.

This amuses me greatly. So many arguements that Constructs are destroyed instead of dying snd here is ONE example of that being a benefit.

[Troacctid]

If semantic nitpicking is all you have, then this debate is over.
Hey, look, I wasn't the one who started it. That's why I prefaced my post with "If you want to be pedantic..."


The plant being magical doesn't mean that flower is.
The flower is part of the plant so it kind of does.


EDIT; And there are non-magic items that cast spells.
Yes, and this one is explicitly not one of them.


The flower starts dying the moment you pluck it. Why would dying equal = undamaged, but dead = damaged?

You have to make the harvest check in order to not damage while plucking, so clearly it's referring to physical damage such as tearing the petals and the like.
You don't get to say "Clearly, such-and-such common sense applies" while claiming the flower is nonmagical because in all the times the text says the plant is magical, it never specifically uses that word to describe the flower in particular.

Maybe it's not the flower that grants the wish but the act of harvesting it. After all, if it's just the flower that matters, why can't you make the wish while it's still attached to the rest of the plant?


Oh wow. Making the Wishfern into a Construct makes it immune to dying. Meaning it suddenly can touch all the living creatures it wants. Because Constructs don't (can't even!) die. Constructs are destroyed.

This amuses me greatly. So many arguements that Constructs are destroyed instead of dying snd here is ONE example of that being a benefit.
Uh... it isn't a construct, though? So that doesn't apply?

[Remuko]

If plants are objects by game rules and objects arent living, then plants arent living by game rules. All of this arguing has been based on the real life fact that plants are "living", but plants are by game definition as far as I can tell, always "non-living".

[ColorBlindNinja]

If plants are objects by game rules and objects arent living, then plants arent living by game rules. All of this arguing has been based on the real life fact that plants are "living", but plants are by game definition as far as I can tell, always "non-living".

The rules do specify that regular plants aren't creatures, since they don't have WIS/CHA scores.

I don't recall anything in RAW about them being alive or not.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The flower is part of the plant so it kind of does.

Did you completely miss my dragonhide analogy?


Yes, and this one is explicitly not one of them.

Citation?

There's nothing to indicate that the flower is magical, just the plant it comes from.



You don't get to say "Clearly, such-and-such common sense applies" while claiming the flower is nonmagical because in all the times the text says the plant is magical, it never specifically uses that word to describe the flower in particular.

Except the rules explicitly states that you make the harvest check to avoid damaging it. The only type of damage the flower could sustain from the harvesting is the physical kind from tearing and the like. As such, damage clearly refers to physical.


Maybe it's not the flower that grants the wish but the act of harvesting it. After all, if it's just the flower that matters, why can't you make the wish while it's still attached to the rest of the plant?

Except you don't need to be the harvester to get the wish. You just need the plucked flower. If someone else harvests it, then hands me the flower, I can still make a wish on it. So it shouldn't matter what means I acquire the flower with.

By your logic, if a god created a wish flower out of thin air with alter reality, it wouldn't work because he didn't make the harvest check. That's stupid.


If plants are objects by game rules and objects arent living, then plants arent living by game rules. All of this arguing has been based on the real life fact that plants are "living", but plants are by game definition as far as I can tell, always "non-living".

That's a good point.

The rules do specify that regular plants aren't creatures, since they don't have WIS/CHA scores.

I don't recall anything in RAW about them being alive or not.

If they were alive, cure spells and whatnot would work on them. Since they don't, plants are not in fact alive.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If they were alive, cure spells and whatnot would work on them. Since they don't, plants are not in fact alive.

I'm trying to find the relevant rules, but not having much luck.

[Troacctid]

Citation?

There's nothing to indicate that the flower is magical, just the plant it comes from.
First sentence of the first paragraph.


Except the rules explicitly states that you make the harvest check to avoid damaging it. The only type of damage the flower could sustain from the harvesting is the physical kind from tearing and the like. As such, damage clearly refers to physical.
The rules also explicitly state that the flower only grants a wish if it's properly harvested. Oh, also, that any attempt to generate a flower faster than normal causes the plant to immediately die, that's a thing too.


By your logic, if a god created a wish flower out of thin air with alter reality, it wouldn't work because he didn't make the harvest check. That's stupid.
Alter reality allows the god to generate temporary magic items, so they could totally imbue a flower with the ability to grant wishes, no sweat.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm trying to find the relevant rules, but not having much luck.

Found it:



Plant Type: This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities, above) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive.

So plants are objects, but they are also alive.

[Tainted_Scholar]

First sentence of the first paragraph.

That's talking about the fern, not the flower. They aren't the same thing, as I have already pointed out.

See, Dragonhide analogy.


The rules also explicitly state that the flower only grants a wish if it's properly harvested. Oh, also, that any attempt to generate a flower faster than normal causes the plant to immediately die, that's a thing too.

The properly harvested part is only to ensure that it's not damaged. As long as it isn't damaged it works. We're bypassing the harvesting part entirely, by creating an already harvested flower.

Also, getting a flower faster only kills the fern, which doesn't exist because we're conjuring the flower with magic.

[Troacctid]

That's talking about the fern, not the flower. They aren't the same thing, as I have already pointed out.
Third sentence of the second paragraph calls out the flower specifically, so there's no reason to believe this.


The properly harvested part is only to ensure that it's not damaged. As long as it isn't damaged it works. We're bypassing the harvesting part entirely, by creating an already harvested flower.
But that's not what the text says. Are we pivoting back to a RAI argument? I'm perfectly happy to make that pivot if that's where you want to go with this.


Also, getting a flower faster only kills the fern, which doesn't exist because we're conjuring the flower with magic.
It doesn't say anything about killing only part of the plant and leaving the rest alive. It just says it kills the plant, which includes the flower.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Third sentence of the second paragraph calls out the flower specifically, so there's no reason to believe this.

All it says is that the flower contains enormous power. It doesn't say anything about it being magical.



But that's not what the text says. Are we pivoting back to a RAI argument? I'm perfectly happy to make that pivot if that's where you want to go with this.


I am creating a pre-harvested flower. It has already been harvested, so it will work just fine. There's no RAI here.

This is the same as creating a log of firewood with minor creation, instead of actually chopping down a tree.



It doesn't say anything about killing only part of the plant and leaving the rest alive. It just says it kills the plant, which includes the flower.

The flower is already dead when I create it. The spell only creates non-living plant matter after all.

[unseenmage]

I mean really all plant material dead or alive has energy in it.

That's how burning wood works or digesting flour works.

Wishfern flowers just have LOTS more if accessed correctly.

[Troacctid]

All it says is that the flower contains enormous power. It doesn't say anything about it being magical.
We literally just talked about how it says it's magical. Are you arguing that the flower is not part of the plant? That's not how flowers work. Are you arguing that there's no reason to believe each individual part of the plant contains magic? There's no basis for that assertion in the text AFAICT, and in fact I just cited strong textual evidence to suggest that this particular part does contain magic.


I am creating a pre-harvested flower. It has already been harvested, so it will work just fine. There's no RAI here.
When was it harvested? Who harvested it? Where did they harvest it from? What was their check result?

[Tainted_Scholar]

We literally just talked about how it says it's magical. Are you arguing that the flower is not part of the plant? That's not how flowers work. Are you arguing that there's no reason to believe each individual part of the plant contains magic? There's no basis for that assertion in the text AFAICT, and in fact I just cited strong textual evidence to suggest that this particular part does contain magic.

Why do you keep ignoring my dragonhide analogy? Dragons are magical, and their hide is part of the dragon. However, dragonhide is explicitly not magic.

Similarly, just because the plant it comes from is magic, does not mean that the flower is. And the rules never state that the flower is magical. And since the rules don't state that the flower is magical, it is not RAW.



When was it harvested? Who harvested it? Where did they harvest it from? What was their check result?

All of these questions could be applied to a cut log of firewood. And I can create one of those with the spell just fine.

[Particle_Man]

From an April Fool's issue and for 1st ed AD&D but for the broken as in "too weak" to play category it is hard to beat the Hopeless Character class. For one thing, their hit die (singular) is 1d2. You didn't gain another hit die when you levelled up; you just rerolled the one you had. :smallbiggrin:

http://backin81.blogspot.com/2009/03/character-class-hopeless.html

Odd serendipity for this forum: The cover of that issue of Dragon Magazine has a construct dragon on it! :smallcool:

[ColorBlindNinja]

From an April Fool's issue and for 1st ed AD&D but for the broken as in "too weak" to play category it is hard to beat the Hopeless Character class.

That reminds me, Chicken Infested should be on the OP's list.

[Bronk]

Dragon Magazines contain a lot of items, ranging from terrible to pretty nice. These are some of the better ones...

Dragon 290 has the Ring of Defense, which is just like a ring of protection doubled up with a cloak of resistance.

Dragon 297 has Codex Hammers, basically epic skill focus feats for purchase.

Dragon 312 has Dyrr's Impervious Vestment, which grants a +9 armor bonus and lets you cast blade barrier once per day at CL18.

Dragon 314 has Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (charisma as fire damage to melee) and the Girdle of Hate (doubles a ranger's favored enemy bonus).

Dragon 318 has the Ship in a Bottle, which can suck an entire ship into itself like an iron flask does to a single monster.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dragon Magazines contain a lot of items, ranging from terrible to pretty nice. These are some of the better ones...

Dragon 290 has the Ring of Defense, which is just like a ring of protection doubled up with a cloak of resistance.

Dragon 297 has Codex Hammers, basically epic skill focus feats for purchase.

Dragon 312 has Dyrr's Impervious Vestment, which grants a +9 armor bonus and lets you cast blade barrier once per day at CL18.

Dragon 314 has Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (charisma as fire damage to melee) and the Girdle of Hate (doubles a ranger's favored enemy bonus).

Dragon 318 has the Ship in a Bottle, which can suck an entire ship into itself like an iron flask does to a single monster.

Thanks, I'll add them to the list.

[Kalkra]

On the topic of dead, dying, and Chicken-Infested, there are those who claim that the Corpse flaw makes you dead without ever having been dying, thereby allowing you to continue doing things, but without being able to die (because you're already dead.) Pig Bond can have strange applications involving boosting your maximum load and Orcus shenanigans. It's not clear that weresheep gives you LA (although it probably does.)

[Celestia]

Dragon Magazines contain a lot of items, ranging from terrible to pretty nice. These are some of the better ones...

Dragon 290 has the Ring of Defense, which is just like a ring of protection doubled up with a cloak of resistance.

Dragon 297 has Codex Hammers, basically epic skill focus feats for purchase.

Dragon 312 has Dyrr's Impervious Vestment, which grants a +9 armor bonus and lets you cast blade barrier once per day at CL18.

Dragon 314 has Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (charisma as fire damage to melee) and the Girdle of Hate (doubles a ranger's favored enemy bonus).

Dragon 318 has the Ship in a Bottle, which can suck an entire ship into itself like an iron flask does to a single monster.
Okay. What are the costs of these items and how do they compare with standard items? Just because they're strong, it doesn't make them overpowered. A ring of elemental command is strong, but it's balanced by being expensive.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Okay. What are the costs of these items and how do they compare with standard items? Just because they're strong, it doesn't make them overpowered. A ring of regeneration is strong, but it's balanced by being expensive.

I always thought the ring of regen was really weak. It only heals 1 HP an hour, that's pitiful. Yeah, regrowing limbs is kind of nice, but players don't really lose limbs that often in my experience.

[Celestia]

I always thought the ring of regen was really weak. It only heals 1 HP an hour, that's pitiful. Yeah, regrowing limbs is kind of nice, but players don't really lose limbs that often in my experience.
You know, I never noticed that. You're right; it looks way overpriced now. Okay, let's switch it to ring of elemental command.

[Crichton]

I always thought the ring of regen was really weak. It only heals 1 HP an hour, that's pitiful. Yeah, regrowing limbs is kind of nice, but players don't really lose limbs that often in my experience.

I agree with this statement completely. By the time even that first hour has gone by, any damage that's significant enough to slow down or stop the party would have already been healed by other, way faster means. And by the time anyone can afford a 90k item, 1hp per hour is miniscule. Just another example of the designers massively overvaluing anything that provides a passive healing buff. Kinda silly considering how cheap healing potions are. A CLW potion outperforms the ring of regen, massively, and you can buy 1800 of them for the same price. Not that you would, but there's little chance of using even half that many during your adventuring career.

[Crichton]

Okay. What are the costs of these items and how do they compare with standard items? Just because they're strong, it doesn't make them overpowered. A ring of elemental command is strong, but it's balanced by being expensive.

I don't know about the rest of them, but the Ring of Defense has +1 to +5 versions, priced at 4k, 16k, 36k, 64k, 100k, which is twice the cost of the comparable rings of protection, and 33% more than the cost of both a ring of protection and cloak of resistance at the same level. Not horribly imbalanced, and if I'm remembering right, it's actually more expensive than if it were crafted with the 'Adding new abilities' rules. I think a ring of defense +1 would be 3500 under those rules. (2000 for ring of protection, 1.5 x 1000 for cloak of resistance effects)

[Troacctid]

Why do you keep ignoring my dragonhide analogy? Dragons are magical, and their hide is part of the dragon. However, dragonhide is explicitly not magic.

Similarly, just because the plant it comes from is magic, does not mean that the flower is. And the rules never state that the flower is magical. And since the rules don't state that the flower is magical, it is not RAW.
The rules state that the whole plant is magical and that the flower contains magical power as well. You mention dragonhide being explicitly nonmagical—where does it say the same thing about wishfern flowers?


All of these questions could be applied to a cut log of firewood. And I can create one of those with the spell just fine.
And the answer to them, for the firewood, was that they were never cut by anybody, ever—they sprang into being in the shape the caster chose. Which is fine for firewood, because all you need is the material. It's not so helpful for a flower that expressly only has magical properties if it is harvested in a certain way. A wishfern flower that was not correctly harvested, whether because of a failed check or because it sprang into existence through magic, would not be able to grant wishes.


I don't know about the rest of them, but the Ring of Defense has +1 to +5 versions, priced at 4k, 16k, 36k, 64k, 100k, which is twice the cost of the comparable rings of protection, and 33% more than the cost of both a ring of protection and cloak of resistance at the same level. Not horribly imbalanced, though I'm not sure it quite follows the pricing guidelines for combining magic item effects
Oh, so it's actually broken in the bad way, then, I guess...ish...I mean, honestly, it's a bit underpowered, but it's nothing egregious. Not really broken at all.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I don't know about the rest of them, but the Ring of Defense has +1 to +5 versions, priced at 4k, 16k, 36k, 64k, 100k, which is twice the cost of the comparable rings of protection, and 33% more than the cost of both a ring of protection and cloak of resistance at the same level. Not horribly imbalanced, though I'm not sure it quite follows the pricing guidelines for combining magic item effects

Convenient that it takes up a single slot, one that you already tend to use for a Ring of Protection. But broken? Most likely not.

[Crichton]

Convenient that it takes up a single slot, one that you already tend to use for a Ring of Protection. But broken? Most likely not.

Broken, no. In fact, technically overpriced, as I edited my post above to reflect, after looking up the rules for 'Adding new abilities' to existing magic items.

[Celestia]

I don't know about the rest of them, but the Ring of Defense has +1 to +5 versions, priced at 4k, 16k, 36k, 64k, 100k, which is twice the cost of the comparable rings of protection, and 33% more than the cost of both a ring of protection and cloak of resistance at the same level. Not horribly imbalanced, and if I'm remembering right, it's actually more expensive than if it were crafted with the 'Adding new abilities' rules. I think a ring of defense +1 would be 3500 under those rules. (2000 for ring of protection, 1.5 x 1000 for cloak of resistance effects)
Then that doesn't sound overpowered at all. In fact, it sounds like a subpar option. I bet the other listed items are probably in similar boats.

[Troacctid]

Then that doesn't sound overpowered at all. In fact, it sounds like a subpar option. I bet the other listed items are probably in similar boats.
Or, in the case of the ship in a bottle, similar boats are in them!

[Bronk]

Okay. What are the costs of these items and how do they compare with standard items? Just because they're strong, it doesn't make them overpowered. A ring of elemental command is strong, but it's balanced by being expensive.

Drysdan's right, the Ring of Defense ranges from +1 to +5, 4k to 100k in price. It could be made with the magic creation rules in the MIC, but it's an example of an official magic item that's strictly better than having both of the other two items at the same time.

Codex Hammers, 327k, expensive at low levels, but at epic levels not so much, especially since they can be reused. Relatively inexpensive free feats.

Dyrr's Impervious Vestment is only 120k for a large armor bonus on what's basically a robe which can be enchanted further with an enhancement bonus.

The Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows are only 12k, and the Girdle of Hate is only 16k, so they're good because they're so cheap.

The Ship in a Bottle actually doesn't have a listed price. It's not an artifact, so it's price is a mystery.

[Gwyllgi]

The vast majority is fine. People talk about all the OP stuff and the mag gets a bad reputation. It is the lack of familiarity that makes people not want to use it, because again they only hear about the exceptional material. Same with Psionics and ToB. Tables don't use them for lousy reasons.

With that irksome tidbit out of the way... Unseelie fey comes to mind as generally OP. The first PrC of the magazine (the Mystic) is broken in a bad way - it is a wizard PrC that doesn't advance casting. I must be tired because I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

Unseelie fey works great when used as a update to the half-fey template. Everything has a roll table so it's completely random.

[Troacctid]

Codex Hammers, 327k, expensive at low levels, but at epic levels not so much, especially since they can be reused. Relatively inexpensive free feats.
That's more expensive than combining a +1 improved ethereal soulfire armor and a greater vestments of power in the same item slot. In MIC's item level system, it's literally off the chart expensive.


Dyrr's Impervious Vestment is only 120k for a large armor bonus on what's basically a robe which can be enchanted further with an enhancement bonus.
It's inefficient compared with bracers of armor, which are inefficient compared with luminous armor. The blade barrier effect is admittedly badass, but given the level you're getting it, not terribly impressive. I do like the crown of sorcerous terror from the same article, though. Definitely adding that one to my spreadsheet. (Not broken, but it's pretty dang cool.) Superior dispelling weapon seems nice too.


The Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows are only 12k, and the Girdle of Hate is only 16k, so they're good because they're so cheap.
"Cheap" is a strong word...they're still 13th and 14th level items, respectively. They're fine buys, but nowhere near broken. I mean, c'mon, we've got phylactery of change and winged mask at this price range.


Unseelie fey works great when used as a update to the half-fey template. Everything has a roll table so it's completely random.
What's wrong with the half-fey template as written?

[Bronk]

That's more expensive than combining a +1 improved ethereal soulfire armor and a greater vestments of power in the same item slot. In MIC's item level system, it's literally off the chart expensive.


They're pretty cheap because they're epic items, and on that list they're on the low end. Even then, there's nothing stopping everyone in the party to chip in for one, everyone would use it, then they could even sell it off again once they're done. They're not single use like Tomes and Manuals.


It's inefficient compared with bracers of armor, which are inefficient compared with luminous armor. The blade barrier effect is admittedly badass, but given the level you're getting it, not terribly impressive. I do like the crown of sorcerous terror from the same article, though. Definitely adding that one to my spreadsheet. (Not broken, but it's pretty dang cool.) Superior dispelling weapon seems nice too.


That whole article had a lot of nice things. The book series it was based on was pretty good too!



"Cheap" is a strong word...they're still 13th and 14th level items, respectively. They're fine buys, but nowhere near broken. I mean, c'mon, we've got phylactery of change and winged mask at this price range.


They're not break the game broken, sure, but... The gauntlets give you a non die based damage that gets multiplied on a crit, that is perfect for anyone with an ever increasing charisma score. The girdle doubles an FE whenever you put it on, and even pre-epic with no special feats the bonus can jump into the 20s.

It's more like they're what you would always hope a magic item would be - inexpensive, and increasing in usefulness as you level instead of the other way around. Well, that's why they're on my lists... they're some of my favorite items.


Or, in the case of the ship in a bottle, similar boats are in them!

Heh!

I do wish there were some indication for price on the Ship in a Bottle though. It's not in a section on epic items, but I treat it as one in my games. It's like an iron flask, which is 170k, but instead of capturing one monster, you capture a ship and everyone on it, including monsters. Some crew members can make saves, and if they make their save, they're left behind when the ship disappears. In water, they're now trying to swim. On a spelljammer ship though, they might not want to make saves at all. There's no size limit on the ship either...

[Dunsparce]

-Eagle Stones from the American Gods article in Dragon Magazine #324 are a 7650 Gold Magic item that duplicates the effect of True Resurrection

-In the same issue(The Silicon Sorcery article about Gothic II), there are Runes and the item creation feat Etch Runes(which only has Scribe Scroll as a prerequisite). They work like scrolls, except they are three times the price, but anyone regardless of class can use them freely as a standard action, no UMD or anything needed.

[schreier]

You know, I never noticed that. You're right; it looks way overpriced now. Okay, let's switch it to ring of elemental command.

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ring_of_Regeneration

"heal 1 point of damage per level every hour"

It's level per hour, not 1 - so level 15 is 15hp per hour ... not blazingly fast, but a ton faster than 1 hp

[ColorBlindNinja]

-Eagle Stones from the American Gods article in Dragon Magazine #324 are a 7650 Gold Magic item that duplicates the effect of True Resurrection

It's a strong item, but I'm not sure it's broken.


-In the same issue(The Silicon Sorcery article about Gothic II), there are Runes and the item creation feat Etch Runes(which only has Scribe Scroll as a prerequisite). They work like scrolls, except they are three times the price, but anyone regardless of class can use them freely as a standard action, no UMD or anything needed.

The Runes may qualify, though. :smalleek:

I'll add both of them to the list.

[Dunsparce]

It's a strong item, but I'm not sure it's broken.

It's a level 9 spell that has a 25,000 gold material component for a price smaller then that of a +2 weapon. A scroll of the spell, for example, is 28,825 Gold. Many wonderous items that duplicate the effects of Raise Dead(a level 5 spell) or Resurrection(a level 7 spell) cost more than it, but the character loses a level.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's a level 9 spell that has a 25,000 gold material component for a price smaller then that of a +2 weapon. A scroll of the spell, for example, is 28,825 Gold. Many wonderous items that duplicate the effects of Raise Dead(a level 5 spell) or Resurrection(a level 7 spell) cost more than it, but the character loses a level.

That makes it strong, to be sure. I just don't see how it breaks a game, since you'll most likely just be using it to rez a dead party member.

Unless there's something I'm missing?

[Mike Miller]

That makes it strong, to be sure. I just don't see how it breaks a game, since you'll most likely just be using it to rez a dead party member.

Unless there's something I'm missing?

It is so cheap, it is hard to justify any unnatural permanent death. An NPC died? So what? Have a cheap magic item bring them back. Enemy army wiped out a town? Not anymore!

[ColorBlindNinja]

It is so cheap, it is hard to justify any unnatural permanent death. An NPC died? So what? Have a cheap magic item bring them back. Enemy army wiped out a town? Not anymore!

Cheap for PCs maybe, but for most NPCs?

[martixy]

It's amusing how quickly this thread devolved into the typical semantics.

But putting that aside...

1. Where are Spell side effects from?
2. Eagle Stones break the setting, not the system. There are a ton of other SRD effects that already do so anyway. Ranging from Teleport to Create Water.
3. On that point, ring of regen is okay for its price setting-wise, but mechanically weak.
4. Do Time dragons count? At-will timestop, permanent advantage(the 5e d20 mechanic) and a bunch of other stuff. There's a lot you can do with 100HD worth of epic feats.

[Lleban]

DRGN mag 359 had the time Dragon which occupies a weird space of being far too weak for something that should be CR 90, never mind how borked the CR system is, but has a bunch of fun abilities that would make it too powerful for a level 30ish party if played well like, at will time stop, perma haste, a no save slow aura, DC 91 frightful presence, 99 SR, immunity to any spell with a duration greater than instantaneous, and the ability to just travel through time.

[ColorBlindNinja]

1. Where are Spell side effects from?

I'm not sure.


2. Eagle Stones break the setting, not the system. There are a ton of other SRD effects that already do so anyway. Ranging from Teleport to Create Water.

Agreed.


3. On that point, ring of regen is okay for its price setting-wise, but mechanically weak.

:smallconfused: Was anyone claiming they were OP?


4. Do Time dragons count? At-will timestop, permanent advantage(the 5e d20 mechanic) and a bunch of other stuff. There's a lot you can do with 100HD worth of epic feats.


DRGN mag 359 had the time Dragon which occupies a weird space of being far too weak for something that should be CR 90, never mind how borked the CR system is, but has a bunch of fun abilities that would make it too powerful for a level 30ish party if played well like, at will time stop, perma haste, a no save slow aura, DC 91 frightful presence, 99 SR, immunity to any spell with a duration greater than instantaneous, and the ability to just travel through time.

I have no idea. With epic spellcasting, they could easily be absurdly powerful.

[martixy]

:smallconfused: Was anyone claiming they were OP?

Thought we agreed Ring of Regen is broken in the bad way?
But it isn't broken setting-wise, just system-wise. Just an example of things working the other way around.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Thought we agreed Ring of Regen is broken in the bad way?
But it isn't broken setting-wise, just system-wise. Just an example of things working the other way around.

Ah, I see what you're saying.