Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

[Ozzie831]

Good evening,

I enjoy browsing through forums or google for posts like this one. But, I like asking a different question about them.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System

In this link, Person_Man made an awesome table, grading different classes on how they fulfill 17 different niches.

So here is my question: Which of the 17 niches are the most desired or useful? Just because they are good in one niche, doesn't mean that it's an actual desired/useful niche.

I totally understand that there is an untold amount of cases that every niche could be useful. I also understand that there is a lot of personal preference that goes into a question like this. But on a normal basis, which are the most useful/fun/important to you guys? You can go ahead and make a list of all 17 or just list the top few niches you personally find the most useful/fun/important.

Thanks for stopping by!

[Saintheart]

Looking at it cynically, D&D 3.5 if not generally is basically premised on combat. Yes, I admit XP is given for "encounters" rather than winning battles, but the very calculation for when you 'should' level up depends on a certain number of encounters with variations of "easy" through to "overwhelming". And because D&D 3.5 if not generally tends to mishandle non-combat encounters, the non-combat encounters will be much rarer.

Ergo, on the assumption that D&D 3.5 is foremost about combat, the most desirable/useful skills in it will be those that relate to or influence combat.

How does combat in D&D 3.5 operate, or what factors dominate combat more than anything else? Fundamentally, the ability to do more in one round than your opponent can. That is to say, the action economy. Either stop the enemy doing what is his primary tactic to kill you, or debuff him so he can't do it anywhere as effectively. After that, it's being able to hit the enemy and do him damage, and finally being able to recover from injury or imposed conditions.

So technically speaking (6) would be the most desirable. If you can fundamentally break the action economy, you have infinitely more options and at least theoretically you're going to survive more. But I'd posit it's a rare game that your DM is going to be able to really handle a role tuned to this option, at least not without a lot of Rule Zero and arbitrary rulings to actually leave you with a challenge.

After that, then, (1) to me seems most desirable, followed by (4), then (2), then (9), then (8), then (7). You could argue Dominator and Ranged Damage should fit somewhere in there, but I find Dominator situational (too many opponents out there who are mindless, i.e. undead, oozes, etc.) and Ranged Damage situational as well as inferior by design in D&D 3.5 to melee damage anyway. Summoner (16) might fit in somewhere as well, but summoning to me is again situational and I think more about the character concept than about a must-have battlefield role as such. The rest of the roles are a grab bag of stuff that's sometimes useful through to gamebreaking such as to render combat irrelevant if built right (specifically, Party Face with its Diplomacy +50 check or so.)

[RoboEmperor]

He put Cleric and Wizard's summoning as a 2 instead of a 1 so...

[Saintheart]

He put Cleric and Wizard's summoning as a 2 instead of a 1 so...

Probably in comparison to the Druid's 1, since the Druid can summon spontaneously and the other finger-wigglers and god-botherers can't. Not sure why Spirit Shaman got the 1 rating as well, though...

[RoboEmperor]

Probably in comparison to the Druid's 1, since the Druid can summon spontaneously and the other finger-wigglers and god-botherers can't. Not sure why Spirit Shaman got the 1 rating as well, though...

He defined summoning as all minionmancy.

The defacto best minionmancy spells are Planar Binding, Simulacrum, and Ice Assassin and SNA doesn't come close to these. Druid's SNA drops out mid to high level and is considered subpar even with greenbound ashbound summoning at high levels. Even Summon Monster surpasses SNA late in the game. There's also necromancy with command undead to increase your minion count.

So I agree low levels druids > clerics and wizards (though imo DMM:Fell Animate makes clerics better than druids even with the animal companion), later levels clerics and wizards hands down surpasses druids.

[zfs]

Probably in comparison to the Druid's 1, since the Druid can summon spontaneously and the other finger-wigglers and god-botherers can't. Not sure why Spirit Shaman got the 1 rating as well, though...

Probably because it has the Spirit Guide to concentrate on spells for it, but I wouldn't think that's enough for a 1 ranking. Not even sure there are that many great summon spells that require concentration - Elemental Monolith does, but that's a Level 9 spell, and by then the classes Robo is talking about have Gate as well as Planar Binding. I think from levels 1 to 20 at average optimization, only Druid really deserves a 1.

[zfs]

He defined summoning as all minionmancy.

The defacto best minionmancy spells are Planar Binding, Simulacrum, and Ice Assassin and SNA doesn't come close to these. Druid's SNA drops out mid to high level and is considered subpar even with greenbound ashbound summoning at high levels. Even Summon Monster surpasses SNA late in the game. There's also necromancy with command undead to increase your minion count.

So I agree low levels druids > clerics and wizards (though imo DMM:Fell Animate makes clerics better than druids even with the animal companion), later levels clerics and wizards hands down surpasses druids.

Greenbound/Ashbound become subpar because at high levels your buff spells that can only effect animals outdo those templates. Animal Growth alone starts to make up the difference, and Nature's Avatar greatly eclipses Greenbound.

I'm not sure minionmancy at that level is in the 'Summoner' niche. Is leadership abuse 'summoning'? Because of how much it can screw with action economy I'd almost think high level minionmancy goes under Game Changer. Meanwhile, for half the game or more, Druid is absolutely just better at summoning than Cleric and Wizard. Notice that Healer is a 3 and Truenamer is a 4 even though they both get Gate Access.

[Troacctid]

The niches weren't initially ranked with a lot of precision. After the project got some legs, he started going down the list and refining each category, but only got as far as Party Face.

[RoboEmperor]

Meanwhile, for half the game or more, Druid is absolutely just better at summoning than Cleric and Wizard.

If we look only at SNA v.s. SM, you're right.

Lesser Planar Binding > SNA and Animal companion. So at levels 1-8 Druids are better, 9+ Clerics and Wizards are better.

Clerics and wizards have Animate Dead which makes up the difference imo because your CL x 4hd of undead + SM >= SNA. So from levels 5+ Clerics are equal, or almost equal, to druids, while Wizards are equal or almost equal to druids at level 7.

So is that superiority for a few levels early game really worth an entire tier above the others when they surpass the druids by miles come mid and late game?

edit: If you're only using SNA as a beatstick early game clerics have Conjure Ice Beast which also draws from the SNA list so only the wizard is losing out on beatsticks at low levels. Of course if we're talking greenbound ashbound then SNA knocks CIB out of the ball park, but then Clerics have DMM:Fell Animate in that case.

[zfs]

If we look only at SNA v.s. SM, you're right.

Lesser Planar Binding > SNA and Animal companion. So at levels 1-8 Druids are better, 9+ Clerics and Wizards are better.

Clerics and wizards have Animate Dead which makes up the difference imo because your CL x 4hd of undead + SM >= SNA. So from levels 5+ Clerics are equal, or almost equal, to druids, while Wizards are equal or almost equal to druids at level 7.

So is that superiority for a few levels early game really worth an entire tier above the others when they surpass the druids by miles come mid and late game?

edit: If you're only using SNA as a beatstick early game clerics have Conjure Ice Beast which also draws from the SNA list so only the wizard is losing out on beatsticks at low levels. Of course if we're talking greenbound ashbound then SNA knocks CIB out of the ball park, but then Clerics have DMM:Fell Animate in that case.

I don't think animate dead is in the 'Summoning' niche - I think minionmancy is a Game Changer, not Summoning. As a Druid I always found Conjure Ice Beast and its counterpart Summon Desert Ally to be pretty underwhelming. The applied templates tend to just make summons that are generic bags of HP that are not well supported by your buff spells.

I don't dismiss that at higher levels and higher op, Planar Binding can outshine SNA. The great thing about Druid summoning is the spontaneous conversion and the synergy with Animal Companion. You can always pull out a summon as long as you have any prepared spells left, and you've more than likely picked some buffs for you AC in your daily spell selection - those can go on summons just as well. Storm Elementals are just nasty summons too - IIRC Summon Monster gets them as well, just one level higher.

[Ozzie831]

Im not 100% sure why you guys are talking about individual class rankings inside each niche. The only person to actually answer my question so far has been Saintheart..... (also Saintheart, the ranged damage section also included spells. Not sure if knew that already, just curious if that that changes your answer any)

So if we could get back on track to the original question about the niches themselves, that would be greeeeeaaaaaat......Thanks

[zfs]

As for the question in the OP, I mostly agree with Saintheart. The 'best' niches in a game that is primarily combat-focused as the ones that contribute most to victory in battle - namely, in some order, BFC, Melee Damage, Buffing, Debuffing, and Ranged Damage. Summoning obviously helps a lot though I'd tend to group individual summons into their own niches.

Least useful is probably Meat Shield, just because the best defense is a good offense, and Summons make the best meat shields because they're disposable, meaning it's just not a niche that is usually needed for a party member to take. At low levels, it obviously helps to sponge damage for the squishies.

Party Face can be important but I think unlike combat, most social encounters can be won/passed even if you roll poorly and don't have any ranks in face skills. Lack of a party face doesn't hamper your ability to RP in that portion of the game, either. (Yes, combats can also be won without fighting, or just bypassed, but I think most groups prefer fighting because, well, it's what adventurers do)

Sage is incredibly variable depending on how much your party wants to use divinations and how much moving the plot successfully depends on knowledge acquired.

Healer is probably more important than people give it credit for - not every party has that wand of lesser vigor - but definitely falls on the lower end. I'd probably put Meat Shield, Sage, Healer, Curiosity, Trapfinder and Thief in the lower third or so.

[Saintheart]

Im not 100% sure why you guys are talking about individual class rankings inside each niche. The only person to actually answer my question so far has been Saintheart..... (also Saintheart, the ranged damage section also included spells. Not sure if knew that already, just curious if that that changes your answer any)

Not really, because spell damage typically is in the form of direct damage, i.e. elemental or similar. In that respect it's often more d6s than a bow and arrow puts out, but it's still the same form of niche - doing damage, when (in my view, on the presumption that combat is highest priority in D&D) the higher priority is denying the opponent the ability to do things at all.

Consider: a 50-point Fireball on a 51-hitpoint Ugly Thing won't in the slightest hinder that Ugly Thing's ability to run up to you and smash your pretty little wizardly face in, but a Slow spell on the same Ugly Thing by definition will, because it won't be able to run up to you and hit you in the same turn, i.e. you'll have a chance to entirely negate its method of killing you at least for that round - and subsequent rounds, even if all you do is run like hell.

[Dimers]

What I consider the most important niche isn't really on that list: perception. It's kinda covered by "Scout" but not really. If you're not even aware that a problem exists, you can't plan for it. If you're not aware an opportunity exists, you can't take advantage of it. Being able to sense things is a high priority for me -- in D&D, other games and real life.

I say "Scout" doesn't really account for it, because the ratings don't match the class abilities related to sensing. I presume the category was rated with an eye for stealth too, but even then ... well, suffice to say I disagree with quite a few ratings.

Other than perception, for practical purposes I favor Buff, Heal, Mobility, Sage, and either Debuff or Ranged. And I do enjoy having a Curiosity.

I am not a great optimizer. :smallredface: