Can Xykon "Force" O-Chul to become a [Fill in the Blank]? (Speculation/Spoilers)

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Spoilered for those who haven't played Warcraft III

I was playing Warcraft III last night, and thinking about Prince Arthas pre and post Frostmourne. Arthas was a paladin looking for a weapon to stop the Lich King, but Frostmourne was a trap, and Arthas became a Death Knight.

Can Xykon "force" O-Chul to become a Death Knight, Blackguard, or some other undead Champion? Redcloak had a Death Knight in this fight, but nothing was ever said where he picked up his "raw material."

I was going to say something about Miko, but I changed my mind. I'm QUITE SURE someone else will change it back before too many posts... :smallamused:

[lord_khaine]

by standart rules you cant force anyone to take lvs in blackguard, and only a god can condem someone deathknight hood.

Xykon could force O-chuul to become a sentient undead, and then wach him try to cleave his skull because that in itself doesnt confer any control.

[jamroar]

Spoilered for those who haven't played Warcraft III

I was playing Warcraft III last night, and thinking about Prince Arthas pre and post Frostmourne. Arthas was a paladin looking for a weapon to stop the Lich King, but Frostmourne was a trap, and Arthas became a Death Knight.

Can Xykon "force" O-Chul to become a Death Knight, Blackguard, or some other undead Champion? Redcloak had a Death Knight in this fight, but nothing was ever said where he picked up his "raw material."

I was going to say something about Miko, but I changed my mind. I'm QUITE SURE someone else will change it back before too many posts... :smallamused:

The Thirteen, lackeys of Kargoth the first death knight, were tricked into getting themselves killed and raised as death knights by their master in an infernal ritual devised by Demogorgon.

Lord Soth of Krynn was cursed by the gods through his wronged wife. The other new death knight guy was cursed by a goddess.

So, yes, it is entirely possible given Fiendish/Divine sponsorship that Redcloak assuredly has to curse someone to Death Knight hood against their will. Presumably the curse also permanently twists their alignment if not already evil, like it does for vampires and liches and most other evil undead templates.

Blackguard-hood requires that the character willingly making a pact with an evil outsider. But you could first turn the paladin victim into a sentient evil undead, then slowly tempt him to take levels in blackguard to replace his now lost paladin powers as he slowly adapts to his new evil attitude readjustment.

[chibibar]

It is a possibility, but in 3.5 I don't think you could "force" it is all matter of choice.

Granted that Paladin class in 3.5 "force" you to follow certain code and such (thus limit roleplaying) but I don't see any "force" stuff in this comic (in terms of turning evil against their will OTHER than turning them into a zombie or ghoul)

It is a possibility SINCE O'Chul is a NPC.

[Porthos]

It is a possibility, but in 3.5 I don't think you could "force" it is all matter of choice.

Granted that Paladin class in 3.5 "force" you to follow certain code and such (thus limit roleplaying) but I don't see any "force" stuff in this comic (in terms of turning evil against their will OTHER than turning them into a zombie or ghoul)

It is a possibility SINCE O'Chul is a NPC.

Helm of Opposite Alignment.

Nuff Said. :smallcool:

[Wolfman42666]

No. (Edit: My answer is no they can't force him, but they don't have to)

But after being thrown aside by both Belkar and Hinjo (not how I see it, but It won't be hard to make O'chul see it that way) not only has Xykon got his unique viewpoint, Redcloak can manipulate, and I bet Tsukiko can mess with peoples minds.

It's a matter of story and time.

And once Redcloak's extracted info on the other gates, it won't be hard to convince O'chul he's already betrayed the paladin's, add a lie that that's what shojo did "and look what happened to him"

And it won't be hard to convince a paladin in good standing (with their code of honour) that he's already fallen, the gods just can't act in the city (due to xykon's spell (more like durkon's)) and as soon as he leaves azure city he'll fall anyway.

From there it should just be a matter of time pressure till he cracks. Honestly I'd like to see this, after all the blackguard Miko theories, Rich threw O'chul in to the Mitd's waiting hands.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

No.

But after being thrown aside by both Belkar and Hinjo (not how I see it, but It won't be hard to make O'chul see it that way) not only has Xykon got his unique viewpoint, Redcloak can manipulate, and I bet Tsukiko can mess with peoples minds.

It's a matter of story and time.

And once Redcloak's extracted info on the other gates, it won't be hard to convince O'chul he's already betrayed the paladin's, add a lie that that's what shojo did "and look what happened to him"

And it won't be hard to convince a paladin in good standing (with their code of honour) that he's already fallen, the gods just can't act in the city (due to xykon's spell (more like durkon's)) and as soon as he leaves azure city he'll fall anyway.

From there it should just be a matter of time pressure till he cracks. Honestly I'd like to see this, after all the blackguard Miko theories, Rich threw O'chul in to the Mitd's waiting hands.

So, your answer is No, but maybe Yes.
I was thinking something similar, and was thinking about the "Fallen" Paladin in "The Tomb of Horrors." (Book, not module)

In the end, he realized that he had never actually fallen, he just thought he had for allowing the boy to be destroyed. It turned out the "boy" was actually another demon, hidden behind an Illusion spell of some sort.

Rich clearly did a LOT of deep thinking before he ever put pen to paper!

[Angafirith]

There's always some plot device that might cause O'Chul to go evil. Curses, untamed magic, mind control, revelations, or even psychological breakdown might cause it. Maybe Tsukiko is his daughter or something.

From what knowledge we have now, I'd say that he was "delivered" to the MitD for the purpose of giving knowledge of the other gates to Xykon. At the very least, he might have an idea of where that data is stored. Or perhaps he knows where Shojo's body is, so that Redcloak can use Speak With Dead.


Rich clearly did a LOT of deep thinking before he ever put pen to paper!
I figure that it would be more like putting stylus to wacom tablet, but I'm just being pedantic.

[Ganurath]

Xykon can make O-Chul his brain slave (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3110441&postcount=12).

[Roderick_BR]

A character can be tricked, or magically forced to convert.
In Arthas's case, he was already getting crazy because of his wish for revenge, and was not very nice by the time he got the sword. Besides, it was a cursed artifact.

[newcresty]

its not like o-chul think hinjo let him down

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html

O-chul: "Yes my lord, we will glady lay down our lives in defense the tower"

and

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html

Hinjo: "they knew when they received their orders that they might be called on to give their lives for the cause"

Hinjo: "They are there as reinforcement"

So yes, O-Chul know he was going to die, and hinjo didn't do notghing to let him down, maybe belkar, but again, belkar has no bounds with o-chul, so he wasn't expected to rescue him

[innk]

I can see O-Chul getting his mind distorced/magically controlled by the evil guys and start a fight with Hinjo at some point, then Hinjo get forced to kill him and when the sword slash him the effect of the "mind control thing" runs out, and O-Chul, dying, says "so... time.. for.. that drink.. my lord......... X.X"

Either that, or O-Chul win the fight, and when he is going to finish off Hinjo his mind gets restored, and he manage to control his final blow to get himself instead of hinjo, thus killing himself




Ohmygods that would be so cool

[kpenguin]

Ohmygods that would be so cool

Awww man. Now that you've said it, Rich probably won't do it.

[Guy_Whozevl]

Is it possible that O-Chul is even alive? Even though he doesn't have the X's, maybe they don't show up due to paralysis? He did get caught in an explosion that took out a full-HP Miko and fell for what is assumed to be 20d6 falling damage (the damage cap for this stuff if I'm not mistaken). If he wasn't dead after all that, the mental trauma brought on by time spent with the MitD might have finished the poor paladin.

[Demented]

Considering what he's gone through... Once he loosens up, he'll probably say "I regret nothing", and go sob in a corner for the next few weeks. He might even take levels in blackguard just to get an excuse to cut himself.

[factotum]

A character can be tricked, or magically forced to convert.
In Arthas's case, he was already getting crazy because of his wish for revenge, and was not very nice by the time he got the sword. Besides, it was a cursed artifact.

Not very nice? By the time he found the sword he'd slaughtered most of the population of Stratholme, and he took Frostmourne even over the objections of his supposed friend Muradin Bronzebeard. I think he had already gone a LONG way down the path of evil before he ever touched the thing.

[Querzis]

Not very nice? By the time he found the sword he'd slaughtered most of the population of Stratholme, and he took Frostmourne even over the objections of his supposed friend Muradin Bronzebeard. I think he had already gone a LONG way down the path of evil before he ever touched the thing.

Yeah you gotta understand that Paladin in Warcraft are not the same as paladin in D&D at all. A paladin in warcraft can be evil and still have all of his paladin power as long as he still believe in the Light. Light and Darkness are more like two different religions in Warcraft then good or evil. So lets just say it was pretty easy for Ner'zhul to manipulate Arthas, this guy had a potential for evil long before Ner'zhul ever messed up with him...But it wont be that easy with O-chul. It doesnt matter how manipulative Redcloak his, they wont be able to turn O-chul to the evil side without lots of magic (or an helm of opposite alignement...but I always though that item was pretty stupid anyway).

Oddly enough, the only class that lose their power when they do an evil act are Shamans. Shamans tecnically dont have any powers, they just ask the five Spirits to aid them and since those Spirits wont do evil, any Shamans that ask the Spirits to do evil things wont get any response from them and wont be able to talk with the Spirits again until they make amend like Drek'tar did.

[David Argall]

Is it possible that O-Chul is even alive? Even though he doesn't have the X's, maybe they don't show up due to paralysis?
It is not merely possible, it is nearly certain he is still alive. The evidence in favor of his still being alive continues to grow. About the only reason to think he might be is that the writer wants to fool us.