Plot twists you thought would happen (but totally didn’t)

[ReleaseTheBees]

A thread for posting plot twists and developments you imagined would happen but then totally didn’t.

The Giant proves every week why he makes money writing stories and many of us don’t.

If as you read the comic you fancifully imagined how certain events would turn out only to be completely wrong, confess it here.

A few from me:
- The IFCC would use their three-minute option on V’s soul to protect V’s body from the vampires in the Firmament fight (never happened)
- Exarch Gontor would vamp the crew of the Mecane during the events of the Godsmoot (never happened)
- This book would end with Durkula leaving with a mind to destroying the fifth gate and forcing the gods to pull the plug on OotSplanet (clearly will not happen)

Looking back, all these ideas were foolish. I learn week on week to never second guess a Giant’s plot - he’s had more good ideas then I’ve had hot dinners.

[Peelee]

No slight at all to the Giant, but now I wanna buy you a hot dinner.

[Synesthesy]

I thought that instead of the vampire being destroyed and Durkon resurrected, Greg and Durkon would actually merge in one soul.

The other plot twists (Belkar won't die, Team Evil will find the Gate and get ready to ritual at the end of this book, Tarquin will go to the last gate and fight with Xykon AND the Order only to die a stupid anticlimatic way) can still happen.

[Peelee]

The other plot twists (Belkar won't die...) can still happen.

Five gold on that not happening. Halfling gonna need a halfcoffin.

[Rrmcklin]

I thought that instead of the vampire being destroyed and Durkon resurrected, Greg and Durkon would actually merge in one soul.

The other plot twists (Belkar won't die, Team Evil will find the Gate and get ready to ritual at the end of this book, Tarquin will go to the last gate and fight with Xykon AND the Order only to die a stupid anticlimatic way) can still happen.

I thought something like the vampire and Durkon merging, at least until the end of the book, would happen too.

As for your other thoughts:

1) That technically can happen, but it definitely isn't going to.
2) How is Team Evil finding the Gate and getting ready for the ritual a plot twist?
3) I don't see what the point of that would be either?

[ReleaseTheBees]

OP here. Another fanciful one:
Remember that Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds Haley gave Elan in the gnome town as an early solstice present? And Elan said “I promise to use it on you most of all, except I hope I don’t have to.”
Like... I had this feverish idea Durkon would kill and vamperise Haley before the end of the book.
And Elan would be forced to use the wand against Vamp Haley to defend himself.

Now I realise how daft that would have been.

[Mightymosy]

I had thought that when the order woke up from Girard's illusion, the gate might have already blown up, and now they had to find out what happened. But of course things happened differently, and that particular story arc went for far longer than I had thought.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I thought that Tarquin was going to be killed by Sabine as revenge for Nale's death. It seems that won't be how Tarquin's plans are unraveled though.

[D.One]

Five gold on that not happening. Halfling gonna need a halfcoffin.

I got the halfjoke, but I think Belkar's Bitterending will leave no halfcorpse at all, given "not long for this world". Just a halfthought... :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:


I thought that Tarquin was going to be killed by Sabine as revenge for Nale's death.

That's still on the table, I think

[Goblin_Priest]

I was sure that Durkon would stay dead much longer than this, and that Minrah would be the one that'd be back.

[Dion]

I was sure Durkon was going for perma-death, and this book would end with his funeral (in an empty coffin) next to his dad.

[Grey Watcher]

I'm not entirely sure if this counts as a twist I thought would happen or a not-twist I thought wouldn't happen or what, but...

Up until the actual reveal, I thought Malack being a vampire was just too obvious, what with being sickly and pale and associated with a death god and all. That Giant is so clever; he made it so obvious it was not obvious at all!

I wanna say there was... something about Miko back in the day, but I don't remember really.

[Havelocke]

I have thought for some time now, that Belkar will be going to that other world in the Snarl. Since he is "not long for this world". Not sure if he dies and gets reborn there...but that would be pretty cool.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have thought for some time now, that Belkar will be going to that other world in the Snarl..

Where he then... dies of asphyxiation?

Grey Wolf

[Elanasaurus]

You don't necessarily need to breathe in an alternate universe, silly.

[D.One]

Less a twist that didn't happen, but a twist I thought wouldn't happen that did.

Since Hylgia's departure in Book 1, we've seen "Hylgia will be back" announcers at every corner the Order turned, and I have always been on the "Nah, she's gone" side. Eventually, she came.

[Morquard]

[Sabine killing Tarquin]
That's still on the table, I think
After all is done, Haley meets back up with her father.

Ian: "It worked! We vanquished Tarquin and his evil allies and it was only possible because of our newest ally, she had fantastic insight into Tarquin for some reason"
Haley: "Oh which new ally?"
Ian: "Oh let me introduce you to your new step-mom then..."

:D

[D.One]

After all is done, Haley meets back up with her father.

Ian: "It worked! We vanquished Tarquin and his evil allies and it was only possible because of our newest ally, she had fantastic insight into Tarquin for some reason"
Haley: "Oh which new ally?"
Ian: "Oh let me introduce you to your new step-mom then..."

:D

Talk about awkward family diners...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I’m not sure there’s been many instances where I predicted a plot twist that didn’t come to fruition. Certainly, I’m much more likely to vehemently debate against an anticipated plot twist...and then wind up being very wrong.

Well, except my predictions about Trigak. Those have yet to pass.

[MartianInvader]

I was sure V was going to bust out that quickened fireball during the vampire fight at some point. Actually, I guess that could still happen during the Exarch fight.

[Fyraltari]

Never sure, but I half-expected Durkon* to have made a coffin out of one of those wooden crates in the Mechane's hull.

[Peelee]

Well, except my predictions about Trigak. Those have yet to pass.

Or have they?

[Paschendale]

I expected Belkar to get vamped instead of Durkon, so that he would fulfill the prophecy but not be removed from the story. I still expect something more complicated than death to happen to Belkar.

[Ruck]

Less a twist that didn't happen, but a twist I thought wouldn't happen that did.

Since Hylgia's departure in Book 1, we've seen "Hylgia will be back" announcers at every corner the Order turned, and I have always been on the "Nah, she's gone" side. Eventually, she came.

I didn't think she'd be coming back, either, mostly because the theories were specious until recently, and even in this storyline I didn't think it was plausible (and I thought it was a bit sexist) that she'd seek revenge or anything over a guy she slept with once. A guy she slept with once who left her with a child, however...


Or have they?

Stop doing dramatic musical cues for the dead chimera!

[CriticalFailure]

I read it a few months ago and totally thought Hilgya would be back with Durkon’s kid based on the comment about neither having the right cantrip. Was that not a popular theory? I thought it was more heavily foreshadowed compared to many other things.

[Peelee]

I read it a few months ago and totally thought Hilgya would be back with Durkon’s kid based on the comment about neither having the right cantrip.

That comment was in 1120 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1120.html). 15 strips after Hilgya reappeared with the kid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html).

By the time you saw the comment about not having the right cantrip, I would very much be surprised if it was still a theory.

[Rrmcklin]

I expected Belkar to get vamped instead of Durkon, so that he would fulfill the prophecy but not be removed from the story. I still expect something more complicated than death to happen to Belkar.

I mean, it will, in that the implication of the prophecy isn't just that Belkar will die, but that he will also be permanently removed from the story.

Which is why him becoming a vampire wouldn't have actually satisfied it anyway. Or not the spirit of the prophecy, anyway.

[Ruck]

I read it a few months ago and totally thought Hilgya would be back with Durkon’s kid based on the comment about neither having the right cantrip. Was that not a popular theory? I thought it was more heavily foreshadowed compared to many other things.

That comment didn't show up until #1120, after Hilgya already had returned with Durkon's child. That exchange wasn't displayed on panel in her first appearance.

Edit: PEELEEEEEEEEEE!!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Or have they?

I’m still holding out hope for a end-of-book cliffhanger!

[Peelee]

That comment didn't show up until #1120, after Hilgya already had returned with Durkon's child. That exchange wasn't displayed on panel in her first appearance.

Edit: PEELEEEEEEEEEE!!

With links.:smallamused:
https://i.imgflip.com/2raqwv.jpg

[jidasfire]

My big pet theory was I expected Book Six would involve the Order being drawn into/trapped in Snarlworld, where we'd learn all about the thing itself. There were enough little suggestions of it that I thought it was properly foreshadowed and obvious.

One of my little theories was I was positive Elan was going to end up using Tarquin's whip. They showed V keeping it, and I thought Elan would actually make sense using a nonlethal weapon that allowed him to swing into situations with style. But it's never been seen again, so I guess not.

I also figured that Belkar's big redemption would not involve any sort of apologies or statements so much as him just making some huge, sacrificial gesture. While that's still on the table, he did just make his first apology ever, so I guess I'm wrong again.

EDIT: It's probably not true, but I'm still holding out hope about my theory that Julia Greenhilt is Redcloak's niece. I know it's crazy but I do have some evidence.

[Ruck]

EDIT: It's probably not true, but I'm still holding out hope about my theory that Julia Greenhilt is Redcloak's niece. I know it's crazy but I do have some evidence.

Okay, I'll bite. Especially since Redcloak's niece would be, what, 40? And Julia is 17.

[Fyraltari]

Okay, I'll bite. Especially since Redcloak's niece would be, what, 40? And Julia is 17.
40? She was a child "three years ago".

[Peelee]

40? She was child "three years ago".

Time to jump on this bandwagon, you say?

[Ruck]

40? She was a child "three years ago".

Whoops, I got the niece confused with the sister.

Either way, this should be fun.

[Fyraltari]

Whoops, I got the niece confused with the sister.

Either way, this should be fun.

In that case, I love that you went with "she's too old" rather than:
She was killed in infancy by a paladin and her corpse abandonned on the battlefield.

Says a lot about this forum.

[Kish]

Given that goblins age significantly faster than humans, Redcloak's niece would be the right age to be Julia, then, yes...

(She's not Julia. Roy would know if Julia had been adopted three years ago.)

[Peelee]

Given that goblins age significantly faster than humans, Redcloak's niece would be the right age to be Julia, then, yes...

(She's not Julia. Roy would know if Julia had been adopted three years ago.)

Unless, of course, his dad was a master of illusion! It's just silly enough to make me a fan.

[Kish]

"Make your son think he's had a sister for years" would be Enchantment, not Illusion. :smallyuk:

[Peelee]

"Make your son think he's had a sister for years" would be Enchantment, not Illusion. :smallyuk:

Maybe he cast an illusion of competence on himself.

[Jasdoif]

Maybe he cast an illusion of competence on himself.The allusion to illusion is delusion.

[Fyraltari]

Unless, of course, his dad was a master of illusion! It's just silly enough to make me a fan.



"Make your son think he's had a sister for years" would be Enchantment, not Illusion. :smallyuk:

Yes but making your son believes he has a sister for years is not!

[Peelee]

The allusion to illusion is delusion.

Well, my delusion was met with derision.

[Jasdoif]

Well, my delusion was met with derision.Maybe if you had a theory about Julia being a simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm), the mission would lack derision from the decision and the omission.

[Peelee]

Maybe if you had a theory about Julia being a simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm), the mission would lack derision from the decision and the omission.

The admission of such an emission would be proof of cognition, which is my ambition but not my condition.

[hroþila]

Eugene created an illusion entirely to mess with Roy, then 3 years ago he came across Redcloak's niece and he decided she could take the place of the illusion. No cracks in this theory.

[Dion]

Given that goblins age significantly faster than humans, Redcloak's niece would be the right age to be Julia, then, yes...

I bet Redcloak’s niece is Hilgya.

That makes Durkon into Redcloak’s half sister, I think.

[Ruck]

Rereading SOD-- Xykon arrives at the goblin village three years before the main comic starts, but Right-Eye discloses that he smuggled his daughter to safety only at the battle outside Dorukan's dungeon, six months before the events of the comic. So it's not clear when exactly it happened... but given that Eugene died three years before the events of the comic, it would be particularly something if he managed this illusion / switch.

[Peelee]

Xykon arrives at the goblin village three years before the main comic starts.... but given that Eugene died three years before the events of the comic....

So what you're saying is everything lines up perfectly!

[Morty]

Like others here, I can think of things I thought wouldn't happen but didn't. I didn't think Hilgya would show up again. Or that Malack would turn out to be a vampire. But my most embarrassing doubt is my belief that the crayon image of Sapphire Guard paladins killing a goblin in a red cloak didn't mean anything. I'm honestly not sure how I arrived at that conclusion. Maybe forum speculation had turned me too sceptical.

[jidasfire]

Whoops, guess I started a little fire there. My evidence for Julia being Redcloak's niece was mainly that Right-Eye said he'd gotten his daughter away to the humans, and seeing as the only human he really knew was Eugene Greenhilt, I thought that fit. Plus, given the fact that Eugene probably had a lot of guilt over the accident that took Eric Greenhilt's life, maybe he used some magic to trick his everyone, herself included, into thinking Julia was human.

Anyway, I realize the timing doesn't work perfectly and there are a number of logistical problems with it, so it's almost certainly not true. But you know, I like to think I put more thought into my half-baked theories than some others.

[Kish]

He had one conversation with Eugene, in which Eugene refused to do what he wanted. I wouldn't bet anything I wasn't prepared to lose that he didn't know other humans better than that, even if they never appeared on-panel.

While I'm not going to dig out Start of Darkness and check, I also think Redcloak's brother's indication of who was raising his niece was a lot less definite than "she's being raised by this human I know."

[Jasdoif]

While I'm not going to dig out Start of Darkness and check, I also think Redcloak's brother's indication of who was raising his niece was a lot less definite than "she's being raised by this human I know.""She's out there being raised by humans--or worse!--because of that madman..."

[GreatWyrmGold]

Five gold on that not happening. Halfling gonna need a halfcoffin.
If anyone wants to take Peelee up on that bet, I'll bet five gold too.



Which is why him becoming a vampire wouldn't have actually satisfied it anyway. Or not the spirit of the prophecy, anyway.
Don't you get it? Obviously, the prophecies about Belkar's death are the kind that are fulfilled literally, denying their obvious interpretation! Despite the fact that every other question the Oracle answered (except Roy's first question and arguably V's) was given a straightforward answer which provided a clear, accurate answer to the question they asked.
Yeah, I think my five gold's safe.



2) How is Team Evil finding the Gate and getting ready for the ritual a plot twist?
3) I don't see what the point of that would be either?
2. Probably due to a combination of the MitD's interference and Team Evil often being as dysfunctional as the Order.
3. I dunno, giving Tarquin a clear conclusion to a story arc which was properly concluded by denying him closure?



I’m still holding out hope for a end-of-book cliffhanger!
Nah, Trigak's return seems more like sequel bait material.



Maybe he cast an illusion of competence on himself.
There are some areas that Eugene Greenhilt could conceivably enchant himself to look competent in, but the spell slots required to make himself look competent in anything related to fatherhood could be used more effectively in wiping Xykon off the face of the material plane.



Whoops, guess I started a little fire there. My evidence for Julia being Redcloak's niece was mainly that Right-Eye said he'd gotten his daughter away to the humans, and seeing as the only human he really knew was Eugene Greenhilt, I thought that fit. Plus, given the fact that Eugene probably had a lot of guilt over the accident that took Eric Greenhilt's life, maybe he used some magic to trick his everyone, herself included, into thinking Julia was human.

Anyway, I realize the timing doesn't work perfectly and there are a number of logistical problems with it, so it's almost certainly not true. But you know, I like to think I put more thought into my half-baked theories than some others.
I'll grant that you put far more thought into it than expected...but I think Right-Eye knows better than to leave his daughter with a human who was initially confused as to why anyone would care about the plight of a bunch of goblins. Unless that human went through some serious character development, but this is Eugene Greenhilt we're talking about.


Anyways...I think when I was in middle school, I expected some remnant of the Eastern Gods to come up at some point? I don't remember the details, or any other plot twists I expected.

[Goblin_Priest]

"She's out there being raised by humans--or worse!--because of that madman..."

Alright, well now that just confirms that Redcloak's niece grew up as a cleric in dwarven lands and is totally going to be pivotal to Durkon swaying him.

[denthor]

I have thought for some time now, that Belkar will be going to that other world in the Snarl. Since he is "not long for this world". Not sure if he dies and gets reborn there...but that would be pretty cool.


Nice thought.

I seem to remember that the Giant lamented that there would be no strips of Belkar in his after life. "Another bit of comedy gold wasted."

It was in one of the commentary sections. Then he went on to say no matter what happens the comic will continue to follow Belkar.

[Paschendale]

I mean, it will, in that the implication of the prophecy isn't just that Belkar will die, but that he will also be permanently removed from the story.

Which is why him becoming a vampire wouldn't have actually satisfied it anyway. Or not the spirit of the prophecy, anyway.

I see it the other way. Technical correctness by the specific wording is the spirit of the Oracle's prophecies. That's why answers like "in his throne room" suffice, or the weird self-fulfilling prophecy about Belkar killing the Oracle (would Belkar still have killed him if his original answer had been "no"?). Specifying "draw his last breath", instead of saying dying... the spirit of that is to be as exact as possible. There's definitely going to be a twist there.

[Resileaf]

I see it the other way. Technical correctness by the specific wording is the spirit of the Oracle's prophecies. That's why answers like "in his throne room" suffice, or the weird self-fulfilling prophecy about Belkar killing the Oracle (would Belkar still have killed him if his original answer had been "no"?). Specifying "draw his last breath", instead of saying dying... the spirit of that is to be as exact as possible. There's definitely going to be a twist there.

It's not just "draw his last breath", it's "Draw his last breath ever". He insisted on that to mean that Belkar will die for good and will not be resurrected in any circumstances.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's not just "draw his last breath", it's "Draw his last breath ever". He insisted on that to mean that Belkar will die for good and will not be resurrected in any circumstances.
This leads me to "(1) What creature does not breath, or does not need to breath, and (2) who will polymorph (or baleful polymorph) Belkar into that?"

[D.One]

This leads me to "(1) What creature does not breath, or does not need to breath, and (2) who will polymorph (or baleful polymorph) Belkar into that?"

Any twist should go beyond simply being polymorphed into something else, because The Oracle also said that Belkar "isn't long for this world" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

Any twist should go beyond simply being polymorphed into something else, because The Oracle also said that Belkar "isn't long for this world" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) OK.
"(1) What creature does not breath, or does not need to breath, and (2) who will polymorph (or baleful polymorph) Belkar into that and then throw him through the gate an into the water world?"

(Does Belkar end his life as a fish? Does this create problems when Mr Scruffy gets hungry? Find out next week in episode LVII .... )

[Ruck]

Which creature doesn't breathe, doesn't live in this world, doesn't eat birthday cake, and needn't bother saving for retirement?

[Resileaf]

Dead people.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I see it the other way. Technical correctness by the specific wording is the spirit of the Oracle's prophecies. That's why answers like "in his throne room" suffice, or the weird self-fulfilling prophecy about Belkar killing the Oracle (would Belkar still have killed him if his original answer had been "no"?). Specifying "draw his last breath", instead of saying dying... the spirit of that is to be as exact as possible. There's definitely going to be a twist there.
Let's go over the Oracle's other known prophecies in estimated chronological order:

"You're going to have a heart attack right after I finish saying you're going to have a heart attack." Pretty straightforward, I'd say.
"Where is Xykon?" "In his throne room." The Oracle wasn't "technically correct but violating the spirit of the question," he was "technically correct by being too literal".
Probably something like "Alright, wise guy, where's Xykon's throne room?" Probably something like "In Dorukon's Dungeon in the Redmountain Hills." We don't know exactly what the Oracle said, but it was apparently straightforward and intuitive enough to get the Order there without significant issue.
"How will I finally be returnin' ta me beloved dwarven homelands?" "Posthumously." There's a good argument that this qualifies as one of those violating-the-spirit prophecies, both because Durkon was undead instead of plain dead and since Durkon came back to life. Still, Durkon absolutely died before returning home.
"How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?" "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons." A lot of people say this shouldn't count, or that it would count as a tricky prophecy, but I disagree. The only real "trick" to this prophecy is who V was talking to.
"Bfqe zqp M rt et fjketfj wi kljjzf?" ["What can I do to restore my speech?"] "When the gift horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouth." This is vague, but otherwise straightforward; Haley knew exactly what the Oracle was talking about when it came up.
"Will this story have a happy ending?" "Yes—for you, at least." It'll be hard to see how this plays out before the end of the actual story, but it's on track to have a happy ending for most of the cast and more than a few motes of tragedy for others.
"Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you?" "Yes". Another case of "The oracle was being too literal," not "The oracle was trying to trick his customer". That came later, when he was trying to bargain for his life.
"There are two magical gates that Xykon might try to control next: Girard's Gate, on the western continent, or Kraagor's Gate, near the northern polar cap. If the lich sorcerer commonly referred to as "Xykon" will ever be, at some future point in time, within a 1000-foot radius of one of these two magical gates, of which of those locations will he be within said radius first, chronologically?" "That, uh... that's your question? ... Fine. But I want it on the record that it is not my fault if the plot sequence gets screwed up. Of those two given locations, Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate first." This is the single biggest strike against any "The Oracle likes to give tricksy prophecies" argument. He was actively trying to give Roy the information he actually wanted.
"Caw caw caw caw, caw caw caw?" [Probably something about V remembering Blackwing] "Try ginko bilboa." So far as can be told, Blackwing never acted on this prophecy, making it hard to judge its clarity.
Probably something like "Is my wife cheating on me?" "Yes, and the other man is your animal companion." Again, pretty straightforward.

Eleven other prophecies, two of them kinda tricksy, three which were only "tricksy" because the asker asked the wrong question—and in two of those cases, the askers caught on immediately because the Oracle was not being subtle about his overly-literalness.
Not to mention that any attempt at making Belkar technically not take any breaths after the end of the year without "being removed from the story" is hampered by literally everything else the Oracle has said on the subject (assuming that Vampire Belkar would celebrate his birthday and could invest and whatnot).

Not to mention that "Belkar can't be removed from the story" is, to put it bluntly, one of the stupidest arguments I've ever seen, and it's only gotten stupider as the comic's gone on. This is for two reasons: The increasing number of characters who are being removed from the story, and the decreasing number of opportunities for Belkar to die before the story was over. You know, in case anyone who's listened to Elan couldn't guess that Belkar was almost certainly going to die in the most dramatic part of the story—ie, at the climax, and probably after his redemption. Belkar's probably going to spend the epilogue split between getting buried and trying to break into Lord Shojo's corner of the afterlife (assuming he doesn't go the route of Kraagor), and I think he'd be happy with that.

[hroþila]

Let's go over the Oracle's other known prophecies in estimated chronological order:
Great job. There's also mama black dragon, who obviously got a clear enough answer that she found V (and their family) without much of an issue.

[Fyraltari]

You forgot
12 (between 10 and 11, chronologically) : "Who killed my son?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html) "Vaarsuvuius the elf Wizard."

Also I don't think Blackwing's question had anything to do about V.

I agree with the rest of your post, though.

EDIT: Evidence that I am no Oracle provided by hroþila.

[Ruck]

Dead people.

I'm on the record as being fully confident Belkar will actually just die before the end of the comic. I am, however, still amused by the lengths some people will go to craft an alternate explanation for the prophecy. Especially so when that explanation is based in "the Oracle is tricky in his prophecies!", something that, as GreatWyrmGold has just graciously outlined for us, isn't true at all.

[Peelee]

I see it the other way. Technical correctness by the specific wording is the spirit of the Oracle's prophecies. That's why answers like "in his throne room" suffice, or the weird self-fulfilling prophecy about Belkar killing the Oracle (would Belkar still have killed him if his original answer had been "no"?). Specifying "draw his last breath", instead of saying dying... the spirit of that is to be as exact as possible. There's definitely going to be a twist there.
Yes, if you ignore all the other prophecies about Belkar's death, then it seems like he may not die. Why, if we ignore the "draw last breath ever" one as well, it's even less likely!

"Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you?" "Yes". Another case of "The oracle was being too literal," not "The oracle was trying to trick his customer". That came later, when he was trying to bargain for his life.

That wasn't even bring too literal. Belkar asked if he would kill any of a number of people on his list. He did (the Oracle). That it hadn't happened by the time Belkar expected is Belkar's own fault. That's as straightforward as you can get, the Oracle's equivocation aside.

[Yendor]

He had one conversation with Eugene, in which Eugene refused to do what he wanted. I wouldn't bet anything I wasn't prepared to lose that he didn't know other humans better than that, even if they never appeared on-panel.

Given that Right-eye's family was able to regularly visit a human-run circus without consequence, it's a safe bet that he knew where to find a human that was a better option than keeping his daughter in Xykon's vicinity.

EDIT: Hey! Maybe she actually joined the circus!


Let's go over the Oracle's other known prophecies in estimated chronological order:

One more from SoD:
Eugene: Who is the sorceror that killed my master, Fyron Pucebuckle? Oracle: He is called, "Xykon". Perfectly straightforward.

I'd also say that the people he gives the least helpful answers to are the ones he has specific reason not to like: Roy, Durkon, Belkar, and Vaarsuvius.

[Dion]

Dead people.

Also, Crab People.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, Crab People.

Crabs breathe.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

That's why answers like "in his throne room" suffice, or the weird self-fulfilling prophecy about Belkar killing the Oracle (would Belkar still have killed him if his original answer had been "no"?).
This seems to be a rhetorical question to which the expected answer is "no, of course not," and yet my answer is, "yes, of course." The Oracle was dead from the second Belkar came back into the Sunken Valley without Roy there to restrain him; Belkar hated kobolds even more than he hated everything else that lives, and not being a kobold did nothing to save Solt Lorkyurg, plus if the Oracle had told him "no" he would have had "he told me something I didn't want to hear! :smallfurious:" as a reason for murder.

[D.One]

I'm on the record as being fully confident Belkar will actually just die before the end of the comic. I am, however, still amused by the lengths some people will go to craft an alternate explanation for the prophecy. Especially so when that explanation is based in "the Oracle is tricky in his prophecies!", something that, as GreatWyrmGold has just graciously outlined for us, isn't true at all.

Agreed. I think Belkar will die, and the only twist/surprise will be how he dies, in order to prevent Raise/Ressurection.

[Joerg]

Regarding the original question: I expected Tarquin to destroy the gate. Didn't happen, though at least he said he would have (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0912.html) afterwards.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also I don't think Blackwing's question had anything to do about V.
The Oracle mentioned ginko bilboa, which is presumably related to ginko balboa, which is often suggested as a memory aid. So Blackwing's question presumably had something to do with memory, and V's ability to remember their familiar is the memory-related thing that is closest to Blackwing.



This seems to be a rhetorical question to which the expected answer is "no, of course not," and yet my answer is, "yes, of course." The Oracle was dead from the second Belkar came back into the Sunken Valley without Roy there to restrain him; Belkar hated kobolds even more than he hated everything else that lives, and not being a kobold did nothing to save Solt Lorkyurg, plus if the Oracle had told him "no" he would have had "he told me something I didn't want to hear! :smallfurious:" as a reason for murder.
The bigger problem is that the Oracle cares very much about professional ethics. He doesn't give false prophecies, and Belkar was going to kill the Oracle. Only if events had played out differently (say, if Belkar took the boots of elvenkind and couldn't goad Roy into attacking Xykon on his dragon, negating any need for the Order to see the Oracle again), the Oracle would have said "no"* and Belkar wouldn't have killed him. It's that simple.

*Assuming that Belkar didn't kill V or Windstriker in this weirdo timeline.



Agreed. I think Belkar will die, and the only twist/surprise will be how he dies, in order to prevent Raise/Ressurection.
Plot twist: The Order discovers that nobody really wants to raise Belkar.
More realistic plot twist: The Order runs out of diamonds, and by the time they get more Belkar's settled into his afterlife.

[Peelee]

Plot twist: The Order discovers that nobody really wants to raise Belkar.
More realistic plot twist: The Order runs out of diamonds, and by the time they get more Belkar's settled into his afterlife.

Yet another plot twist: his corpse gets eaten or left behind.

[Fyraltari]

The Oracle mentioned ginko bilboa, which is presumably related to ginko balboa, which is often suggested as a memory aid. So Blackwing's question presumably had something to do with memory, and V's ability to remember their familiar is the memory-related thing that is closest to Blackwing.
Do you mean ginko biloba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginkgo_biloba)? Because I can't find anything about ginko balboa and that's a more plausible typo.

I didn't know ginko biloba was believed to have anything to do with memory (although that's apparently unproven), so I just assumed Blackwing asked what's the best food he was ever going to eat or something along those line. However, I admit the thought that Blackwing was secretly dropping ginko nuts in V's plates the whole time is hilarious.

I don't really get the impression that Blackwing was trying to mend their relationship, though

[Ruck]

"gingko biloba" is the spelling; "gingko bilboa" in the comic is presumably a typo. I'm not certain that Blackwing asked about how to get Vaarsuvius to remember him, but ginkgo biloba is touted as a memory aid, so it makes sense that it would be the case.

[Peelee]

Do you mean ginko biloba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginkgo_biloba)? Because I can't find anything about ginko balboa and that's a more plausible typo.

Ginkgo Balboa is when Rocky punches you until you remember things. It's a lot of punching.

[Fyraltari]

Ginkgo Balboa is when Rocky punches you until you remember things. It's a lot of punching.

That sounds like "advanced interrogation techniques" really.

[Peelee]

That sounds like "advanced interrogation techniques" really.

Oh, the jokes that could be made here...

[Jasdoif]

Oh, the jokes that could be made here...The Emperor putting him in the Inquisitorious, because the high ground was rocky?

[Fyraltari]

The Emperor putting him in the Inquisitorious, because the high ground was rocky?

I like Star Wars as much as the next geek but how did it get into this?

[Peelee]

I like Star Wars as much as the next geek but how did it get into this?

The second part of your statement leads me to doubt the first part.

[Jasdoif]

I like Star Wars as much as the next geek but how did it get into this?Mostly the official role of Inquisitors as interrogation specialists (a role I'm not 100% sure they've retained in the new canon), and how I once described them as using "enhanced interrogation techniques" without knowing that phrase had a more specific meaning in some circles.

Or do you mean how the showdown between Anakin and Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith took place on Mustafar, a volcanic world; so when Obi-Wan said he had the high ground, the ground under his feet was rocky?

[KorvinStarmast]

Which creature doesn't breathe, doesn't live in this world, doesn't eat birthday cake, and needn't bother saving for retirement? If Belkar the Fish gets tossed through the portal into the next world ...
Fish can't make birthday cake underwater, I don't think, but they can eat some if you drop cake/crumbs into a pond. But if that world in the rift is covered in water, there is no land for growing grain/wheat, hence no flour, hence no birthday cake.
(Yeah, I know, it's a reach)

Fish: what retirement plan? Dinner for a bigger fish, right?

Belkar: was his zoological sign Pisces?

It seems to boil down to a technicality: fish and breathing.
Do fish breath? Not quite they same way Belkar the halfling does, but they certainly extract oxygen from the water, so if that's breathing then the hypothesis is dead in the water.

[Fyraltari]

The second part of your statement leads me to doubt the first part.
You wound me.
Please press (http://nooooooooooooooo.com/).

Mostly the official role of Inquisitors as interrogation specialists (a role I'm not 100% sure they've retained in the new canon)*, and how I once described them as using "enhanced interrogation techniques" without knowing that phrase had a more specific meaning in some circles.
Okay. There's a decent chance that this is no coincidence all things considered.


Or do you mean how the showdown between Anakin and Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith took place on Mustafar, a volcanic world; so when Obi-Wan said he had the high ground, the ground under his feet was rocky?
No, that I got.
*Pretty sure torturing fools is on the job description of every Imp above captain.

[D.One]

Mostly the official role of Inquisitors as interrogation specialists (a role I'm not 100% sure they've retained in the new canon), and how I once described them as using "enhanced interrogation techniques" without knowing that phrase had a more specific meaning in some circles.

Or do you mean how the showdown between Anakin and Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith took place on Mustafar, a volcanic world; so when Obi-Wan said he had the high ground, the ground under his feet was rocky?

Anakin went all Gonna Fly Now, but Obi Wan Rose Up to the Challenge of His Rival and Anakin got a Burning Heart (among other parts of his body)...

[Peelee]

You wound me.

I read that in HK-47's voice.:smalltongue:

[jidasfire]

I also had a theory that toward the end of the last book, we'd see Thog wake up from under the pile of rocks Roy left him in, and he'd find Sir Scraggly, the puppy he's always wanted, and they'd wander out of the story to have adventures and ice cream. It's still not impossible, but the story's moved on to the point that it's pretty unlikely.

[Fyraltari]

I read that in HK-47's voice.:smalltongue:

Condescending pity: Meatbags... If ind it best to spare them mmore inevitable desilusions through the precise application of massive firepower.

[DemonRoach]

Okay, I'll bite. Especially since Redcloak's niece would be, what, 40? And Julia is 17.

That's because Redcloaks niece is most likely Therkla's mum. Does no one else think that?!

https://media.giphy.com/media/NPyHgTkMStCXC/giphy.gif

[Kish]

I read that in HK-47's voice.:smalltongue:
Oh, bother.

[Son of A Lich!]

I remember when Malak started fighting with Durkon, I went out to the smoke deck at NMCP and was saying to all my Oots friends that there was a 0% chance that Durkon would be actually raised as a vampire.

I was all like "Maybe he escapes and Belkar's prophecy is realized, or Haley comes down in the last second, or something something divine intervention but it takes days for vampires to raise from their coffins. The order doesn't have a cleric in the party without Durkon, and while the classic composition of a party is 'Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric' Clerics were the most important part because they can heal conditional effects and more importantly, raise the dead. Durkon being vamped would mean that they would have to find another powerful cleric to raise him. No way that is going to happen"

and then the next day (I think this is when The Giant was doing his marathon of 100(?) strips daily, but I'm not sure), Malak started drinking and Durkon was raised with a home brew spell.

huh. Well, this is going to have to be resolved quickly...

*Five years later*

Hooray! Durkon's back!

[Mandor]

[Deleted, I'm remembering things out of order and confusion what I wondered then with what I thought might have been an interesting twist after the fact.]

[GreatWyrmGold]

Do you mean ginko biloba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginkgo_biloba)? Because I can't find anything about ginko balboa and that's a more plausible typo.
Speling is nat my fortatude. (The wiki mentioned the typo, and I misremembered it.)


I didn't know ginko biloba was believed to have anything to do with memory (although that's apparently unproven)...
I said it was believed, not that the believers had any evidence. It's a placebo, but a pretty widely-known one.

[Persimmon]

I was pretty suspicious of High Priest Hurak. He just didn't act like someone who was really trying to prevent the prophecy from coming to pass. He didn't tell Durkon about the prophecy, which (as Roy points out in #1096) would probably have made it much less likely to come to pass. He also didn't tell his successor, and Durkon almost got permission from her to come home (in #375); if he'd sent such a letter a year earlier, he probably would have come home.

Also, we never actually saw Odin's high priest receiving the prophecy, or even telling Hurak about about it; we only have Hurak's word that the prophecy even happened. This is clearer in the OtooPCs version, in which it's clear that Brewmaster Blackore didn't see any of it, only was told about it afterward by Hurak.

Also, I was expecting Rubyrock's "it is true. And the truth always has a use" (#1024) to be more plot-critical than it has been thus far.

So the plot development I was expecting went something like this:

Hel suborned or blackmailed Hurak. She couldn't persuade him to turn himself into a vampire (or destroy the world) for her, but she was able to persuade him to set Durkon up. She might have had an incomplete prophecy ("If Durkon Thundershield goes adventuring, he will become a vampire"), or was just being nasty to dwarven clerics on general principles, or had sent a few dozen clerics to human lands in hopes that she could get one of them vampirized. (I was figuring that Hel's "serendipitous servant" in #946 was sort of like Minrah's "holy power that we definitely have more of" in #1093.)

Greg found this out at the climax of their big battle, and Rubyrock's declaration was the final fact that pushed him over the edge into betraying Hel.

In retrospect, Rich's version gives Durkon a lot more agency. That makes for a better story...and given how much time we spent in Durkon's head since #1093, I probably should have seen that Durkon would have more to do in the climax than "be in the room when Greg found out".

[Lord Torath]

Belkar: was his zoological sign Pisces? Zodiacal sign. Zoology is the study of animals.


That's because Redcloaks niece is most likely Therkla's mum. Does no one else think that?!Therkla is half orc, not half-narc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)-goblin. And the other half is human (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) not goblin. :smallamused:

[GreatWyrmGold]

I was pretty suspicious of High Priest Hurak. He just didn't act like someone who was really trying to prevent the prophecy from coming to pass.
...How many stories where someone tries to prevent a prophecy from coming to pass have you read? The first five I can think of all have the preventer do something similarly short-sighted and shoddy to prevent the prophecy. The only one I can think of where the preventer did something effective is when he heard that some woman's son would be stronger than his father before he was going to boink her, so he married her to some wimp and tried to forget she existed.


Also, I was expecting Rubyrock's "it is true. And the truth always has a use" (#1024) to be more plot-critical than it has been thus far.
Five gold says it comes up during the dwarven council meeting. Like, one of the vampires tries to get Durkon thrown out, but he's not exiled anymore and all dwarves have a right to sit in on the meeting or something.



Zodiacal sign. Zoology is the study of animals.
Clearly, zoological signs are related to spirit animals.

[Fyraltari]

Five gold says it comes up during the dwarven council meeting. Like, one of the vampires tries to get Durkon thrown out, but he's not exiled anymore and all dwarves have a right to sit in on the meeting or something.

I also think that it will come up again, but I should point out that Durkon was never exiled. He was on a mission there are no records of which. Literally the only person who cares about Rubyrock giving Durkon the green light to go home is Durkon himself. Also it would be weird if anybody could just participate in the meeting of the Clan Elder but the vampires planed to use the rules somehow despite not being invited so who knows.

[Dion]

Zodiacal sign. Zoology is the study of animals.

Fish are animals

[DemonRoach]

Therkla is half orc, not half-narc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)-goblin. And the other half is human (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) not goblin. :smallamused:

Mistakes were made, back to the lurking cave!

[GreatWyrmGold]

I also think that it will come up again, but I should point out that Durkon was never exiled. He was on a mission there are no records of which. Literally the only person who cares about Rubyrock giving Durkon the green light to go home is Durkon himself. Also it would be weird if anybody could just participate in the meeting of the Clan Elder but the vampires planed to use the rules somehow despite not being invited so who knows.
The idea I had:
All dwarves (or all clergy or something) are by default allowed to spectate and, at the appropriate time, speak at the clan meeting. As far as Durkon* knew, Durkon wouldn't be allowed in because he's not supposed to be in the kingdom, let alone do anything there. So Durkon* would send in his dwarven minions to...do something, safe in the knowledge that none of the Order would be able to enter without breaking dwarven law. You know, try to abuse procedural rules for fun and profit. But Durkon isn't quasi-exiled, so he is allowed in, so he can stop the vampires' plot.
That's about the only way I could see it coming up. There just aren't many points where "Durkon can come home" is going to come up in a story taking place largely outside Durkon's home.

[KorvinStarmast]

Zodiacal sign. Zoology is the study of animals. I guess my joke didn't work. (not the first time that happened). That's OK, it isn't what pays the rent. :smallsmile: (Belkar's a ranger, but I really was trying way too hard with that ...)

[Havelocke]

Crazy theory here, but hear me out. Belkar BECOMES a shoe less God of war and transcends to become an new God for the new world. God's don't age right? Nor do they breathe....and he would be on a new world so wouldn't that fulfill the prophecy?

[Fyraltari]

Crazy theory here, but hear me out. Belkar BECOMES a shoe less God of war and transcends to become an new God for the new world. God's don't age right? Nor do they breathe....and he would be on a new world so wouldn't that fulfill the prophecy?

Yeah 'cause any antisocial murderhobo can become a god, right? Easy-peasy.

[Peelee]

Yeah 'cause any antisocial murderhobo can become a god, right? Easy-peasy.

Especially the relatively unknown ones!

[Paleomancer]

I also think that it will come up again, but I should point out that Durkon was never exiled. He was on a mission there are no records of which. Literally the only person who cares about Rubyrock giving Durkon the green light to go home is Durkon himself. Also it would be weird if anybody could just participate in the meeting of the Clan Elder but the vampires planed to use the rules somehow despite not being invited so who knows.

Well, he was forcibly thrown out by his own superior, with what even Durkon seemed to realize was a weak excuse for "a mission to human lands" (given his anger and its basis for the vampire not-Durkon), on the basis of a prophesy that if he returned, he'd bring "death and destruction." That's pretty much "exile" by any reasonable standard, albeit one that depends on the exiled person's willingness to abide by the judgment as much as anything, since Hurak seems to have been rather careless in enforcing it. I would agree it is unclear how the Vampires would be able to participate in the clan meeting by following the rules... when they should have no way to be admitted.

[Fyraltari]

Well, he was forcibly thrown out by his own superior, with what even Durkon seemed to realize was a weak excuse for "a mission to human lands" (given his anger and its basis for the vampire not-Durkon), on the basis of a prophesy that if he returned, he'd bring "death and destruction." That's pretty much "exile" by any reasonable standard, albeit one that depends on the exiled person's willingness to abide by the judgment as much as anything, since Hurak seems to have been rather careless in enforcing it.

To be precise, Hurak hid this to everybody including his successor, making his confident swear to keep the secret. Durkon could have come back any time after Hurak died and nobody would have cared ('xcept Firuk and he probably just would have talked to Durkon) because nobody knew about this. The simple fact that Hurak phrased it a mission with quotes in the text while talking to Durkon, makes me 93.556 009% sure that Hurak absolutely did not have the authority to exile anybody.

[Paleomancer]

To be precise, Hurak hid this to everybody including his successor, making his confident swear to keep the secret. Durkon could have come back any time after Hurak died and nobody would have cared ('xcept Firuk and he probably just would have talked to Durkon) because nobody knew about this. The simple fact that Hurak phrased it a mission with quotes in the text while talking to Durkon, makes me 93.556 009% sure that Hurak absolutely did not have the authority to exile anybody.

I will concede to, and agree with that point. I guess the key question is, does Durkon know Hurak had no authority? As far as he seems to have known for most of the strip, he couldn't return home and was happy at the thought of merely being buried in his homeland. He seems to have seen it as exile, even if Hurak had no valid authority to inflict that upon him.

[Fyraltari]

I will concede to, and agree with that point. I guess the key question is, does Durkon know Hurak had no authority? As far as he seems to have known for most of the strip, he couldn't return home and was happy at the thought of merely being buried in his homeland. He seems to have seen it as exile, even if Hurak had no valid authority to inflict that upon him.

Durkon is too Lawful for his own Good. It wasn't an exile, it was a mission and Hurak could send him on missions. That the mission was an obvious pretext is not the point.

[SilverCacaobean]

I thought that Sigdi would be in bad shape, or die/be dead already and trapped in Hel's realm. I thought Sigdi didn't tell Durkon about his dad because his death was considered dishonourable somehow and he ended up in Hel. I thought Greg would show all this to Durkon and convince him to give in to his dark side temporarily.
Needless to say I'm very happy to be wrong on every count.

Also, I thought Durkon would merge with Greg as an allegory of him dealing with his repressed negative emotions, I thought the revocation of Durkon's exile would be critical to beating Greg and I thought Redcloak wouldn't be the type to derive voyeuristic pleasure from spying on his own niece having sex.


Which creature doesn't breathe, doesn't live in this world, doesn't eat birthday cake, and needn't bother saving for retirement?

I found the answer to this! The species is called Spinoloricus cinziae, it lives in our world and it neither eats cake nor does it bother saving for retirement on account of it being a microorganism! Apparently it was discovered 2 years after the Belkar prophesy strip was published, which proves that the Giant must be part of some secret team of biologists who discovered it first but kept it a secret for their own nefarious reasons. Anyway, clearly Belkar will be transformed into that and be transported to modern Earth where he will find some critical information about Xykon and use some transplanar communication spell to inform Roy about it.

[Fyraltari]

Also, I thought Durkon would merge with Greg as an allegory of him dealing with his repressed negative emotions.

That's more-or-less what happened.

[SilverCacaobean]

That's more-or-less what happened.

That's true. Still not the way I expected it to, so it qualifies for this thread.

[St Fan]

I was very much expecting that the Hilgya vs. Vampire Durkon confrontation would go the way of a brick joke with Elan's many attempt at illusions consisting of creating a female version of the subject to distract him.

Since the vampire had Durkon's memories, it would basically have gone with Durkon-prisoner-in-his-own-mind yelling "Hilgya? But whot is she doin' here?" and the negative spirit scoffing at him. "Oh, come on, it's obviously another one of the bard's lame illusions. That's all he could find, an erstwhile tryst of yours who have absolutely no reason to be here today? Though the baby is a nice touch, I guess, adding still a bit of fatherly guilt to the mix. Anyway, let's just ignore her."

And thus, he would order his pawns to not pay any attention to the illusory female dwarf, only to get nailed hard when discovering Hilgya was truly there.

[Resileaf]

Undead are actually immune to illusions.

[Linneris]

I expected the "two Durkons" thing to be more lasting. Specifically, I expected that either there'd be two Durkon souls in whatever afterlife they'd go to — or perhaps the original Durkon would go to Valhalla, but the second Durkon, formerly known as Durkon*, would go to Hel, and the Order would have a new quest: to rescue him from there.

When that didn't happen, I expected Durkon to briefly end up in Hel after Hilgya killed him, since I thought it probably wouldn't count as an honorable death.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Crazy theory here, but hear me out. Belkar BECOMES a shoe less God of war and transcends to become an new God for the new world. God's don't age right? Nor do they breathe....and he would be on a new world so wouldn't that fulfill the prophecy?
Putting aside the logistics of finding enough people who would want Belkar to be a god that he gained even a Banjo level of power, I'm pretty sure gods do breathe. They're presumably either powerful outsiders or divine versions of whatever creature type they were beforehand, and in either case they'd breathe. Without evidence otherwise...



...and I thought Redcloak wouldn't be the type to derive voyeuristic pleasure from spying on his own niece having sex.
Wait, what?



When that didn't happen, I expected Durkon to briefly end up in Hel after Hilgya killed him, since I thought it probably wouldn't count as an honorable death.
Alcohol poisoning is considered an honorable death, as is dying to a tree. Dwarven standards of honorable deaths are pretty mediocre.

[SilverCacaobean]

Wait, what?

Wait, isn't Hilgya Redcloak's niece? I... I thought...

But... but that means... if Redcloak spied on his niece having sex and Hilgya isn't Redcloak's niece... It means DURKON IS REDCLOAK'S NIECE! Q.E.D.

Yes! Now everything's falling into place! That's why Thor asked Durkon to convince Redcloak to stop his plan! Durkon will appeal to Redcloak's sense of family and this will give Redcloak a chance to make up for what he did to his brother by having him essentially face the same dilemma again, only this time he will make the right choice, thereby completing his character arc!

[Fyraltari]

Speaking of Red's niece, does anyone know what happened to his father? He isn't in the opening of Start Of Darkness even though Redcloak's paternal uncle and mother are and is never mentionned as far as I remember. Granted he should be dead of old age by now but that's peculiar.

[Peelee]

Speaking of Red's niece, does anyone know what happened to his father? He isn't in the opening of Start Of Darkness even though Redcloak's paternal uncle and mother are and is never mentionned as far as I remember. Granted he should be dead of old age by now but that's peculiar.

Speaking as Redcloak's niece, Reddy's father's untimely natural death spurred Reddie to become a Cleric.

[Fyraltari]

Speaking as Redcloak's niece
Wait, what?

Reddy's father's untimely natural death spurred Reddie to become a Cleric.
Is that your headcanon or do you have a source?

[Peelee]

Wait, what?
:smallwink:

Is that your headcanon or do you have a source?
I thought the first part of my sentence would shed light on the second part. Or, to more directly answer, neither. I'm just joking.

[Fyraltari]

:smallwink:

I thought the first part of my sentence would shed light on the second part. Or, to more directly answer, neither. I'm just joking.

I had assumed that was a typo. Apologies.

[Kish]

Undead are actually immune to illusions.
Immune to mind-affecting effects, including patterns (illusions that have a specific effect on those who see them) and phantasms (illusions that exist solely in the mind of the victim, which most people can't see). Not at all the same thing. Not anything that would matter to a figment, like Silent Image.

[Resileaf]

Immune to mind-affecting effects, including patterns (illusions that have a specific effect on those who see them) and phantasms (illusions that exist solely in the mind of the victim, which most people can't see). Not at all the same thing. Not anything that would matter to a figment, like Silent Image.

Malack was immune to the wall illusion that Elan conjured up in Girard's pyramid.

Edit: Nevermind, I just remembered he cast true seeing a few seconds earlier.

[Ruck]

Malack was immune to the wall illusion that Elan conjured up in Girard's pyramid.

Edit: Nevermind, I just remembered he cast true seeing a few seconds earlier.

Yeah, and to add to that, Vampire!Durkon pointedly did not see through the wall illusion.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Speaking of Red's niece, does anyone know what happened to his father? He isn't in the opening of Start Of Darkness even though Redcloak's paternal uncle and mother are and is never mentionned as far as I remember. Granted he should be dead of old age by now but that's peculiar.
Considering the casualties in the rest of that chapter...I'm guessing he didn't live to see Redcloak enter the clergy.

[Resileaf]

Yeah, and to add to that, Vampire!Durkon pointedly did not see through the wall illusion.

I had assumed he had just failed his spot check. >_>

[Kish]

Edit: Nevermind, I just remembered he cast true seeing a few seconds earlier.
A spell which an undead cleric would never have a reason to prepare, if undead were immune to illusions.

[Peelee]

Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) is an illusion spell, as well.

[Resileaf]

A spell which an undead cleric would never have a reason to prepare, if undead were immune to illusions.

Yes, I get it, you don't have to repeat it. :P

[hamishspence]

Undead are immune to some illusions - mind-affecting ones (phantasms, patterns) but not all.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion

Invisibility is a glamer "deceive the senses" not "deceive the mind" - so it works.

[Resileaf]

I believe I am getting quite intimately familiar with those rules by now.

[Snails]

After Malack had tea with Durkon, I predicted Malack was secretly an (1) evil (2) vampire that would (3) vamp Belkar someday.

That is about as beautiful a near miss as it gets, as Malack literally had his fangs in Belk's neck at one point.

Whether Malack was evil or not was a fun controversy, as some agreed and some disagreed -- the death is not necessarily evil argument seemed really worked its magic on some Readers. (Hats off to the Giant!)

Whether Malack was a vampire, I was a lone voice against many on that one.

Whether Belkar would be vamped, some saw a degree of appeal based on the prophecy, but Malack being a vampire was just a guess too far.

[Fyraltari]

After Malack had tea with Durkon, I predicted Malack was secretly an (1) evil (2) vampire that would (3) vamp Belkar someday.

That is about as beautiful a near miss as it gets, as Malack literally had his fangs in Belk's neck at one point.

Whether Malack was evil or not was a fun controversy, as some agreed and some disagreed -- the death is not necessarily evil argument seemed really worked its magic on some Readers. (Hats off to the Giant!)
I don't think anyone doubted Malack was evil after reading his plans for the future of the Western Continent.

[Peelee]

I don't think anyone doubted Malacck was evil after reading his plans for the future of the Western Continent.

Oh sweet summer child.:smalltongue:

[Ruck]

I believe I am getting quite intimately familiar with those rules by now.

If you'd like, I can invite you to a two-week seminar I'm holding called "Illusions and Undead: Make D&D 3.5 Work For YOU."

[Peelee]

If you'd like, I can invite you to a two-week seminar I'm holding called "Illusions and Undead: Make D&D 3.5 Work For YOU."

I'm a guest speaker in that seminar! I teach a small class called "The Importance of Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm) While Invisible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) (And Why Wizards Can't Do Everything)."

[Resileaf]

I'm a guest speaker in that seminar! I teach a small class called "The Importance of Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm) While Invisible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) (And Why Wizards Can't Do Everything)."

Y'know, I'd watch that seminar just to have a better idea of how to counter wizard PCs more reliably.

[zimmerwald1915]

If you'd like, I can invite you to a two-week seminar I'm holding called "Illusions and Undead: Make D&D 3.5 Work For YOU."
Do you offer time-shares on vampire coffins?


Y'know, I'd watch that seminar just to have a better idea of how to counter wizard PCs more reliably.
Having a +8 racial bonus to Listen checks helps.

[Snails]

I don't think anyone doubted Malack was evil after reading his plans for the future of the Western Continent.

I wish that were the case. My recollection is there were a number of hangers on with the position in the neighborhood of: "I still think Malack may be LN, since no one can prove that Malack is evil based on things like ideas about the future. After all, he only eats the guilty, and that seems like argument that is LN enough to me."

But as predictions go, timing matters. Mine was made immediately after 737: Comparative Mythology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html). Malack's reveal about his plans to honor Nergal is quite a ways later.

[Fyraltari]

Y'know, I'd watch that seminar just to have a better idea of how to counter wizard PCs more reliably.

A wizard might command the forces of reality itself, but to the dagger he doesn't see coming a wizard is just a nerd in fancy clothings.

[zimmerwald1915]

A wizard might command the forces of reality itself, but to the dagger he doesn't see coming a wizard is just a nerd in fancy clothings.
Rather, a simulacrum or astral projection or ice assassin of a nerd in fancy clothing. Which contingent-teleports away the moment it is touched by a dagger.

[Peelee]

Rather, a simulacrum or astral projection or ice assassin of a nerd in fancy clothing. Which contingent-teleports away the moment it is touched by a dagger.
One of my favorite lines in the comic:

What would happen if we turned magic off? Fascinating. It appears you cease to be a mighty wizard and become a fragile pointy-eared monkey. While I? I am still a dragon.

[Fyraltari]

Rather, a simulacrum or astral projection or ice assassin of a nerd in fancy clothing. Which contingent-teleports away the moment it is touched by a dagger.
Did you miss the "didn't see coming" part? The trick to defeating superior firepower is attacking an unsuspecting ennemy.

Take it from a professional (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus).
Obviously most of this does not apply to D&D wizards, but some does.

[Snails]

Y'know, I'd watch that seminar just to have a better idea of how to counter wizard PCs more reliably.

As someone who has played PC spellcasters, you do not need to counter them in the most direct sense. If you can disrupt their Line of Sight, they cannot efficiently lay down their AoE spells without stepping forward where they might get hit. Of course, they can choose to hang back in a place of safety, but that means either using their spells slots less efficiently and/or watching their buddies having fun carving up the enemy (or perhaps hearing their cries for help as they get beaten while the wizard picks his nose).

Walls and fogs and web and darkness do not stop the PCs in general or the wizard in particular. But they do slow down the wizard in an important way for a round or two, and it can be accomplished with low level spells. And, of course, the objective of the DM is not to stop PCs from their preferred hyper-optimized modes of fighting, but to have options that can push individual PCs out of their comfort zone for some combats, to force them to adjust tactics on the fly.

[Ruck]

Do you offer time-shares on vampire coffins?

We tried it once, but the vampires were so possessive.

[GreatWyrmGold]

After Malack had tea with Durkon, I predicted Malack was secretly an (1) evil (2) vampire that would (3) vamp Belkar someday.

That is about as beautiful a near miss as it gets, as Malack literally had his fangs in Belk's neck at one point.
I'd like to think that was an intentional joke at the expense of everyone who desperately wants Belkar to live through the prophecy that foretold his death.



One of my favorite lines in the comic:
What would happen if we turned magic off? Fascinating. It appears you cease to be a mighty wizard and become a fragile pointy-eared monkey. While I? I am still a dragon.

I've never been so unlucky as to have a family member skinned and turned into armor (one of the benefits of having shiny scales (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html)), but I still feel that was an awesome moment.

[Chaosrex]

In Chapter 465

When Tsukiko says that she's gonna raise a Powerfull undead, that'll be mean, strong and have Black and Red armor.
Then passes next the PSycho Fallen paladin Miko corpse.

Then she's like "Nah i need both parts( even though a few panels prior to that we see the rest of her body be like 12 feets away), plus it would be that strong anyways"...

I really thought that she would have been raised as and Undead Knight/Dark Paladin/Anti-Paladin, but nope, expectations not met.

Even though in retrospect, i kinda see why not, since it was a really annoying character( not like THE character or the writting, but her personallity was just...ugh...)

Still would like to see some Dark Paladin some day...

[GreatWyrmGold]

-it's just last post, I don't need to quote it all-
1. Tsukiko would need to dig her legs out of the rubble and then stitch both halves together. Who does she look like, Grubwilliger?
2. I'm pretty sure that was a joke at the expense of people who had already assumed Miko would be raised as a powerful undead.
3. I wouldn't call her an annoying character, any more than Belkar or the Monster in the Darkness are. All three would be annoying to know in person (for very different reasons, of course), but the ways they annoy others are designed to create drama, comedy, or both. The reason I'd give for Miko not coming back is something more like "Her story was complete". Her intolerance and paranoia lead her to suspect a larger and larger conspiracy until she murdered her master and doomed her city (not at the same time), and never realized how her ironclad beliefs were blinding her to the truth. She couldn't atone because she never realized she was doing something wrong.

I'd like to apologize in advance if I started a multi-page flame war over Miko.

[Goblin_Priest]

1. Tsukiko would need to dig her legs out of the rubble and then stitch both halves together. Who does she look like, Grubwilliger?
2. I'm pretty sure that was a joke at the expense of people who had already assumed Miko would be raised as a powerful undead.
3. I wouldn't call her an annoying character, any more than Belkar or the Monster in the Darkness are. All three would be annoying to know in person (for very different reasons, of course), but the ways they annoy others are designed to create drama, comedy, or both. The reason I'd give for Miko not coming back is something more like "Her story was complete". Her intolerance and paranoia lead her to suspect a larger and larger conspiracy until she murdered her master and doomed her city (not at the same time), and never realized how her ironclad beliefs were blinding her to the truth. She couldn't atone because she never realized she was doing something wrong.

I'd like to apologize in advance if I started a multi-page flame war over Miko.

They coulda just grafted her top half on a zombie centaur's bottom half!

[GreatWyrmGold]

They coulda just grafted her top half on a zombie centaur's bottom half!
Yeah, but then they'd have to find a centaur to cut in half. That's work, you know? Easier to just find a whole centaur corpse and make a zombie out of that.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, but then they'd have to find a centaur to cut in half. That's work, you know? Easier to just find a whole centaur corpse and make a zombie out of that.

No, no, no they stitch Miko's top half on the centaur's bottom half and then they stitch the centaur's top half on Miko's bottom half. Flawless plan!

[GreatWyrmGold]

No, no, no they stitch Miko's top half on the centaur's bottom half and then they stitch the centaur's top half on Miko's bottom half. Flawless plan!
Why not stitch the centaur's front half to Miko's bottom half, and the centaur's back half to Miko's top half?

[Resileaf]

How about stitching the centaur's top half to Miko's top half and its bottom half to her bottom half?

[Fyraltari]

I like where this is going.

[zimmerwald1915]

I like where this is going.
But pushmepullyous are stationary :smallconfused:

[GreatWyrmGold]

But pushmepullyous are stationary :smallconfused:
Not if they agree on which way to go!
Wait, half of the pushmepullyou would be Miko, never mind.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Agreed. I think Belkar will die, and the only twist/surprise will be how he dies, in order to prevent Raise/Ressurection.

There doesn’t need to be a twist the order could just elect not to resurrect him. Honestly if the world is saved would bringing him back be beneficial? He’s still a CE murderious psycho.
How’s this for a twist, The world is saved the order is preparing to disband. Everyone’s talking about what are you going to do now. Belkar says how he’s going to track down all the people who annoyed him but he missed the chance to kill. And Roy kills Belkar in the middle of his speech.

[Synesthesy]

There doesn’t need to be a twist the order could just elect not to resurrect him. Honestly if the world is saved would bringing him back be beneficial? He’s still a CE murderious psycho.
How’s this for a twist, The world is saved the order is preparing to disband. Everyone’s talking about what are you going to do now. Belkar says how he’s going to track down all the people who annoyed him but he missed the chance to kill. And Roy kills Belkar in the middle of his speech.

Then the next time Roy meets the Burocratic Deva, he'll be ready for a trip to True Neutral afterlifes for let's see.... all the eternity?

Then there is no way that Durkon leaves Belkar alone. Belkar saved Durkon from Greg. Durkon would save Belkar for everything he can, we can be sure about it. If Belkar will stay dead is only because Durkon cannot resurrect him, or if Belkar himself refuse the resurrection. Or Belkar won't die at all, in Oracle's face

[Resileaf]

Then the next time Roy meets the Burocratic Deva, he'll be ready for a trip to True Neutral afterlifes for let's see.... all the eternity?

I don't know about you, but I think "I'm off to kill about a million people" is motive enough to be killed. :P

[zimmerwald1915]

Something something preemptive action something something immanent threat

[Fyraltari]

How’s this for a twist, The world is saved the order is preparing to disband. Everyone’s talking about what are you going to do now. Belkar says how he’s going to track down all the people who annoyed him but he missed the chance to kill. And Roy kills Belkar in the middle of his speech.

That doesn't really sound like Belkar as he is now (nor as he was, hunting people down is work and he sucks at tracking). Nor does it sound like Roy.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Then the next time Roy meets the Burocratic Deva, he'll be ready for a trip to True Neutral afterlifes for let's see.... all the eternity?

Then there is no way that Durkon leaves Belkar alone. Belkar saved Durkon from Greg. Durkon would save Belkar for everything he can, we can be sure about it. If Belkar will stay dead is only because Durkon cannot resurrect him, or if Belkar himself refuse the resurrection. Or Belkar won't die at all, in Oracle's face

Yes because stopping someone who announces they are going to murder innocent people is a bad thing.

[Synesthesy]

I don't know about you, but I think "I'm off to kill about a million people" is motive enough to be killed. :P


Yes because stopping someone who announces they are going to murder innocent people is a bad thing.

Killing someone for something that he did not can't be a good act. For what we know, in the next 5 minutes a random O-Chul spawns and talks him into lawfull good.

Actually, Roy did point this out to the Deva, he said something like "unless you want me to murder him while he sleep"; the Deva said that it isn't what they want.

[KorvinStarmast]

One of my favorite lines in the comic: In my top 5.
Take it from a professional (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus).
Obviously most of this does not apply to D&D wizards, but some does. Arrgh, I was hoping you'd be linking to a Bruce Lee line, something like "expect the unexpected." :smallfrown:

[Fyraltari]

In my top 5. Arrgh, I was hoping you'd be linking to a Bruce Lee line, something like "expect the unexpected." :smallfrown:

Maybe this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAn7baRbhx4) will cheer you up, then.

[Peelee]

Arrgh, I was hoping you'd be linking to a Bruce Lee line, something like "expect the unexpected." :smallfrown:

Ya know, if you'd taken that to heart, you would have expected the video that was linked. :smallamused:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Then the next time Roy meets the Burocratic Deva, he'll be ready for a trip to True Neutral afterlifes for let's see.... all the eternity?
Leaving Elan to die after he ran off to try and help people gets you chucked into True Neutral. Killing Belkar if he makes it clear that's the only way to stop him from killing other people...is literally what the Order does to goblins and thieves and vampires and stuff, only to a major character.
I don't think Belkar would make that kind of speech, and I don't think he'd want to do that anymore, but if he did make that speech and his heart was in it, killing him would be slightly more justified than killing Thog.



Ya know, if you'd taken that to heart, you would have expected the video that was linked. :smallamused:
The only way to expect the unexpected is to expect to see something you don't expect. (By definition.) Therefore, if you expect any specific unexpected thing, you're not expecting the unexpected—you're just explaining a low-probability event.

[Peelee]

The only way to expect the unexpected is to expect to see something you don't expect. (By definition.) Therefore, if you expect any specific unexpected thing, you're not expecting the unexpected—you're just explaining a low-probability event.

Just as I expected.

[Heksefatter]

- I thought the Snarl might be a myth.

- I thought the Eastern Gods might still be alive.

- I thought that Elan might defeat Tarquin as a storyteller by narrating him into a position that wasn't cool.

- I thought that Trigak might re - (no.)

[Emanick]

I haven't made many false predictions over the years - I learned early on not to expect any specific plot development, because Rich very rarely does something particularly predictable. I do remember, though, reading a prediction that V's mate might show up as an antagonist looking to hunt the party down and thinking "huh, that seems prescient! I bet that happens." Naturally, it didn't, and now I feel rather stupid for ever thinking it was a plausible theory. Of course, it was like ten years ago, when I was in high school, so there's that.

[Quebbster]

Now I started to wonder if Belkar's analysis about Shojo's failed Resurrection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html) may foreshadow his eventual fate. Maybe he will end up in an afterlife he doesn't want to leave?
Consider that a prediction that can still fail to come true. :)

[Mike Havran]

During the hiatus after strip 873, I thought Malack and Vaarsuvius will meet deep in the bowels of the Girard's pyramid, but will not duel since V didn't know Malack joined the Guild and Malack will not care about Nale's plan. They discover the Gate together while Roy and the rest of the Order overcomes Girard's master illusions upstairs, and somehow end up destroying it just after Xykon arrives and starts to enter the pyramid.

[GreatWyrmGold]

- I thought that Elan might defeat Tarquin as a storyteller by narrating him into a position that wasn't cool.
From a certain point of view, that's what he did.

[understatement]

I thought [Oona] the masked figure would capture O-chul and Lien, but they'd kill [her] and use her mount to fly to the Gates.

I mean, who doesn't want to see two paladins riding a sonic reptillian unicorn?

[martianmister]

Do you mean ginko biloba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginkgo_biloba)? Because I can't find anything about ginko balboa and that's a more plausible typo.

I didn't know ginko biloba was believed to have anything to do with memory (although that's apparently unproven), so I just assumed Blackwing asked what's the best food he was ever going to eat or something along those line. However, I admit the thought that Blackwing was secretly dropping ginko nuts in V's plates the whole time is hilarious.

I don't really get the impression that Blackwing was trying to mend their relationship, though

Ginkgo biloba is famous as an aphrodisiac, so it's basically a "viagra joke." Whole memory thing is a forum rumor based on the Wikipedia article.

[Peelee]

Ginkgo biloba is famous as an aphrodisiac, so it's basically a "viagra joke."

"Famous" is relative. For instance, I never heard of that before you mentioned it. I know it as the memory aide (despite also knowing that's bunk), which it's also famous for. And considering V and Blackwing's relationship at the time, it makes sense to reference that. A viagra joke would be out of nowhere and make no sense whatsoever.

[Rrmcklin]

I feel like we've moved past the point where "just leave Belkar dead" is something the Order would actually do.

Yes, he's still evil, but at this point I feel like that he's not faking improving has been impressed upon at least Roy and Durkon, if not the others (yet). I've thought for awhile that his death would at least resonate with them on an emotional level.

So while I don't think it would actually be wrong to leave Belkar dead given everything he's done, I imagine there actually will be a concrete reason it just isn't possible for them to do anything about it.

[zimmerwald1915]

I feel like we've moved past the point where "just leave Belkar dead" is something the Order would actually do.
:roy: I'm going to dance on your grave, you know.

[martianmister]

I was expecting Belkar's death at the desert.
I was expecting Belkar's death at the arena.
I was expecting Belkar's death at the pyramid.
I was expecting Belkar's death at the airship.
I was expecting Belkar's death at the godsmoot.
I was expecting Belkar's death at the restaurant.

[Fyraltari]

I was expecting Belkar's death at the desert.
I was expecting Belkar's death at the arena.
I was expecting Belkar's death at the pyramid.
I was expecting Belkar's death at the airship.
I was expecting Belkar's death at the godsmoot.
I was expecting Belkar's death at the restaurant.

You really thought he was going to die before the climax of the last book? He's one of the main characters.

[Peelee]

You really thought he was going to die before the climax of the last book? He's one of the main characters.

Even knowing that, the pyramid was one hell of a misdirect.

[Fyraltari]

Even knowing that, the pyramid was one hell of a misdirect.

I probably would have had my doubts as well if I had been reading the comic at the time to be honest.

[Peelee]

I probably would have had my doubts as well if I had been reading the comic at the time to be honest.

Huh. I thought you'd been around longer, just based on how often we interact.

[martianmister]

You really thought he was going to die before the climax of the last book?

Yes. :smallconfused:

[Fyraltari]

Huh. I thought you'd been around longer, just based on how often we interact.
I started reading when the gang took the lift into Tinkertown, and started posting around #1090.

EDIT:

Yes. :smallconfused:

He's not going to.

[Peelee]

I started reading when the gang took the lift into Tinkertown, and started posting around #1090.

I found it at 808, IIRC. The join date on my profile is clearly wrong.

[Fyraltari]

I found it at 808, IIRC. The join date on my profile is clearly wrong.

Is that possible 'cause I got 1090 with the join date. I'm not sure when I actually tarted posting but I think it may have been before.

[Peelee]

Is that possible 'cause I got 1090 with the join date. I'm not sure when I actually tarted posting but I think it may have been before.

I guarantee it's possible, because I only found the comic shortly before I started dating my wife. That wasn't '09.

[XxXU2XxX]

I totally thought Elan's last name was Draketooth and the fact that Book 5 was centered around his family would reveal it.

[martianmister]

I thought that Starshines are a sub-branch of Draketooth family and they were descended from the god of tricksters Loki.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I feel like we've moved past the point where "just leave Belkar dead" is something the Order would actually do.
If Belkar died during the second vampire fight, he'd definitely be brought back ASAP. But you never know what might change between now and then.
(Or maybe he wants to stay dead. I doubt whatever afterlife he ends up in will be as nice as the CG one, but it's always possible that he'll get into a comfortable spot before the Order can scrape together the diamonds to bring him back. Or heck, maybe Shojo finds him and they start hanging out. Probably not—I doubt Shojo thinks as highly of Belkar as Belkar does of Shojo—but you never know.)



:roy: I'm going to dance on your grave, you know.
Both Roy and Belkar have matured since then.



I found it at 808, IIRC. The join date on my profile is clearly wrong.
While we're on the topic...I think I found OotS around 584, and caught up around 598, joining the forum sometime after that.



I thought that Starshines are a sub-branch of Draketooth family and they were descended from the god of tricksters Loki.
Plot twist: There is more than one family with red hair!

[Rrmcklin]

If Belkar died during the second vampire fight, he'd definitely be brought back ASAP. But you never know what might change between now and then.
(Or maybe he wants to stay dead. I doubt whatever afterlife he ends up in will be as nice as the CG one, but it's always possible that he'll get into a comfortable spot before the Order can scrape together the diamonds to bring him back. Or heck, maybe Shojo finds him and they start hanging out. Probably not—I doubt Shojo thinks as highly of Belkar as Belkar does of Shojo—but you never know.)

I mean, yes, we already know that Belkar isn't coming back, I wasn't arguing that he was so I'm not sure what the point of that first part.

But as for the rest of what you've said, no, I don't think "Belkar finding a comfortable spot" or "choosing to stay dead" would be in the cards at all for Belkar and where he would end up as he is now. And I don't know how he'd find Shojo since, Shojo was CG and you yourself admitted Belkar is unlikely (I'd say definitively impossible) not going to end up where those types go.

[martianmister]

Plot twist: There is more than one family with red hair!

Not just red hair but exact same shade of red hair.

[Sir_Norbert]

You really thought he was going to die before the climax of the last book? He's one of the main characters.

Lord of the Rings. Star Wars. Redwall. Final Fantasy VII. Just a few examples off the top of my head.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Lord of the Rings. Star Wars. Redwall. Final Fantasy VII. Just a few examples off the top of my head.

Never heard of Redwall, but all the others are examples of Mentor death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) (assuming that FF7 is the one that lifted the plot wholesale from Phantasy Star 4), and Belkar is many things, but mentor is not one of them.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Not just red hair but exact same shade of red hair.


Even if you stick to "living Draketooths seen in non-crayon, non-illusion strips prior to the Big Reveal" (Orrin):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html

his hair is slightly different than Haley's is in the same strip. His is a little more orange, hers is a little more pink.

Haley's hair color's evolved a bit since the first strips - in the most recent ones it's much pinker and less orange than in the earliest strips.

[martianmister]

Even if you stick to "living Draketooths seen in non-crayon, non-illusion strips prior to the Big Reveal" (Orrin):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html

his hair is slightly different than Haley's is in the same strip. His is a little more orange, hers is a little more pink.

Haley's hair color's evolved a bit since the first strips - in the most recent ones it's much pinker and less orange than in the earliest strips.

Still close enough.

[GreatWyrmGold]

And I don't know how he'd find Shojo since, Shojo was CG and you yourself admitted Belkar is unlikely (I'd say definitively impossible) not going to end up where those types go.
I don't know, either. That's why I said "maybe Shojo finds him," since it seems more likely that he'd be able to wander the cosmos and visit the CE/CN afterlife than vise versa. And also why I said "probably not".



Not just red hair but exact same shade of red hair.
Putting aside how this has always been wrong, how many shades of red do you expect from this artstyle?

[Emanick]

Putting aside how this has always been wrong, how many shades of red do you expect from this artstyle?

I don't think the artstyle does much to constrain how many shades of red Rich can use in choosing a hair color. I could be wrong.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't think the artstyle does much to constrain how many shades of red Rich can use in choosing a hair color. I could be wrong.
Fair point, I did kinda screw up the explanation there. But the comic does keep a pretty consistent color palette, which limits the number of shades which are easily-distinguishable while still looking like red hair.

[Rrmcklin]

I don't know, either. That's why I said "maybe Shojo finds him," since it seems more likely that he'd be able to wander the cosmos and visit the CE/CN afterlife than vise versa. And also why I said "probably not".

And Shojo would be wondering the CE/CN afterlives because...? It may sound like I'm harping on this, but none of that really strikes me as coherent.

It strikes me as trying to give Belkar a happy ending (or at least not a completely terrible one), despite him being the one least likely (and arguably least deserving) actually get one.

[Snails]

Never heard of Redwall, but all the others are examples of Mentor death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) (assuming that FF7 is the one that lifted the plot wholesale from Phantasy Star 4), and Belkar is many things, but mentor is not one of them.

Boromir looked like a main character, too, that would be both ally and antagonist to Aragorn. Until he wasn't. And the torch of conflict carried by Boromir would be taken up by his father with...someone who was dead at the time -- that one was a bit hard to see coming.

[Snails]

Even knowing that, the pyramid was one hell of a misdirect.

That is one hell of an understatement! :smallbiggrin:

The wee sexy warrior had vampire fangs. Literally. In. His. Neck.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Boromir looked like a main character

Really? Shows up half way through, has barely any lines or development, and joins the team at the same time as a dwarf and an elf, explicitly because it is felt all races need to be represented, making him feel token-y in-story. Boromir has a lot to be recommended for - interesting antagonist, interesting parody of an actual main character in similar stories, interesting foil for Aragorn, but I never felt he was main character material.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

Really? Shows up half way through, has barely any lines or development, and joins the team at the same time as a dwarf and an elf, explicitly because it is felt all races need to be represented, making him feel token-y in-story. Boromir has a lot to be recommended for - interesting antagonist, interesting parody of an actual main character in similar stories, interesting foil for Aragorn, but I never felt he was main character material.

Grey Wolf

Also he's played by Sean Bean, so it you don't know what's coming, it's really your own fault.

[Snails]

Really? Shows up half way through, has barely any lines or development, and joins the team at the same time as a dwarf and an elf, explicitly because it is felt all races need to be represented, making him feel token-y in-story. Boromir has a lot to be recommended for - interesting antagonist, interesting parody of an actual main character in similar stories, interesting foil for Aragorn, but I never felt he was main character material.

He looked like an important foil for Aragorn's arc. That Aragorn would take the long "king sming; let us three blue-blooded seasoned warriors look for the two hobbits of unknown value as the wolves gather at the door of all the civilized peoples of the west" way was not so obvious. Unless you read the book first.


Also he's played by Sean Bean, so it you don't know what's coming, it's really your own fault.

Cannot argue.

[Quebbster]

Also he's played by Sean Bean, so it you don't know what's coming, it's really your own fault.

Wasn't Boromir and Ned Stark the main basis for that joke anyway? Maybe Alec Trevelyan, but Bond villains don't have much of a life expectancy anyway.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wasn't Boromir and Ned Stark the main basis for that joke anyway? Maybe Alec Trevelyan, but Bond villains don't have much of a life expectancy anyway.

No, he dies a lot. 30% of his characters have ended up dead, which is impressive. He’s second pretty much only to John Hurt both percentage and total wise. Bela Lugosi is also up there because Dracula, but I can’t find a percentage for him.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Wasn't Boromir and Ned Stark the main basis for that joke anyway? Maybe Alec Trevelyan, but Bond villains don't have much of a life expectancy anyway.

Tetragammatron Cleric Partridge was long before Ned Stark. Sean Miller was before LOTR.

[Quebbster]

Maybe I just don't know my Bean well enough.

[Peelee]

Maybe I just don't know my Bean well enough.
Mr. Bean is disappointed in you.
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2014/10/21/09/rowan-atkinson.jpg?w968h681

[Doctor West]

Never heard of Redwall, but all the others are examples of Mentor death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) (assuming that FF7 is the one that lifted the plot wholesale from Phantasy Star 4), and Belkar is many things, but mentor is not one of them.

Grey Wolf

FF7's Aerith is definitely not anyone's mentor, although the Redwall example fits.
High five for being one of the other 5 people who played the classic Phantasy Star games though.

[RoyGreenH]

Before it was revealed that V killed the Draketooth family, I thought that Hailey was a Draketooth on her mother's side, and that this was the reason why she told Elan that she's "not exactly what you would call" human, since I also thought that the Draketooth family descended from dragons (I guess that this theory was only half-wrong).

[Gift Jeraff]

I thought Belkar would die and become the sexy shoeless god of war so that he, Banjo, and the Dark One could vote against Hel.

[GreatWyrmGold]

And Shojo would be wondering the CE/CN afterlives because...? It may sound like I'm harping on this, but none of that really strikes me as coherent.

It strikes me as trying to give Belkar a happy ending (or at least not a completely terrible one), despite him being the one least likely (and arguably least deserving) actually get one.
You know, you have a point. Sure, maybe Shojo just wants to wander the planes a bit on vacation (sorta like Gygax did, less the random table), but that's a baseless suggestion. I wonder why I didn't specifically call that possibility out as unlikely as part of a list of potential outcomes. Oh wait, I did exactly that. And you've focused on one possibility I threw in there just because, which I specifically mentioned was unlikely, completely ignoring the more likely possibilities...why, exactly?
I'm not trying to give Belkar a happy ending so much as a conclusion. It wouldn't sit right with me if Belkar finally got around to fulfilling his character development, died within the arc (before he could exist with it for a significant amount of time—much of it during the climax, no less), and that was it. Maybe he'll get a good conclusion before or during his death, I dunno. I was listing possibilities that came to mind, and without knowing the circumstances of Belkar's death, the only ones which came to mind came after that.



Wasn't Boromir and Ned Stark the main basis for that joke anyway?
In the sense that those are the two Sean Bean characters most people know about.



Before it was revealed that V killed the Draketooth family, I thought that Hailey was a Draketooth on her mother's side, and that this was the reason why she told Elan that she's "not exactly what you would call" human, since I also thought that the Draketooth family descended from dragons (I guess that this theory was only half-wrong).
First off, I find it amusing that so many people have just assumed the next word was going to be "human," when there are plenty of other possibilities. Pretty much any noun which seems to fit Haley (from Elan's perspective), which could not apply and which she'd be ashamed of Elan knowing, would fit there...but everyone's assumed "human".
Second off, that second theory was 100% correct, what are you talking about?



I thought Belkar would die and become the sexy shoeless god of war so that he, Banjo, and the Dark One could vote against Hel.
Even before the quiddity stuff came up, I'd question every one of those. It's not clear why Belkar would undergo postmortem apotheosis (he's not exactly a halfling celebrity on par with The Dark One), TDO doesn't get along with the gods of any pantheon, and Banjo was explicitly barred from the Northern Pantheon. Besides, if you could pack the pantheon that easily, you'd have to wonder why Hel didn't find some hand-puppets she could recruit for her cause.

[zimmerwald1915]

Besides, if you could pack the pantheon that easily, you'd have to wonder why Hel didn't find some hand-puppets she could recruit for her cause.
How else would you describe Hermod and Thrym?

[deuterio12]

Never heard of Redwall, but all the others are examples of Mentor death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) (assuming that FF7 is the one that lifted the plot wholesale from Phantasy Star 4), and Belkar is many things, but mentor is not one of them.

Grey Wolf


FF7's Aerith is definitely not anyone's mentor, although the Redwall example fits.
High five for being one of the other 5 people who played the classic Phantasy Star games though.


Phantasy Star 2 already had the cute mysterious girl party member perma-die mid-story.

[GreatWyrmGold]

How else would you describe Hermod and Thrym?
Hah, burn!
...You get what I'm saying though, right? "If the people who want to save the world could recruit gods with one worshipper, why wouldn't Hel make some gods like that?"

[Takver]

After Malack was killed, I was sure that Tarquin would also be dead by the end of Book Five. I would have bet all my virtual money on it.

I also thought that Belkar's Mark of Justice curse would be activated by Roy's ghost, after he manifested near Haley, by him saying the secret code phrase.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I also thought that Belkar's Mark of Justice curse would be activated by Roy's ghost, after he manifested near Haley, by him saying the secret code phrase.
Well, he said the secret code phrase while manifested near Haley.

[Dragonfan]

I thought Malack was going to kill Nale inside the pyramid.

[understatement]

I thought Malack was going to kill Nale inside the pyramid.

Malack probably thought so too.

[Bulbo]

I expected that epic necromancer ghost who escaped from V to come back somehow.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I expected that epic necromancer ghost who escaped from V to come back somehow.
I doubt Nero would be part of the IFCC if he just let his souls wander around the Material Plane.

[foelancer]

Still think banjo will solve the snarl problem, as i discuss in depth in this video

https://youtu.be/tau3XpznZWY


also Bustamouse came up with the same idea

[GreatWyrmGold]

Personally, I think that Durkon and the others convincing Redcloak to help—and having the main three pantheons agree to help The Dark One as reparation for what they did to the goblinoid races—would be more thematically resonant with the rest of the comic. The "Chekov's gun" argument is kinda weak, since the "Banjo is worshipped by a tribe of orcs" thing was a core part of the island subarc. (Also because they worship Giggles now.)

Not to mention, the Snarl prison requires a high-level divine spell slot's worth of quiddity. There's no indication that the orcish priests are powerful enough to provide that.

[foelancer]

Not to mention, the Snarl prison requires a high-level divine spell slot's worth of quiddity. There's no indication that the orcish priests are powerful enough to provide that.

aha but theres no indication there not :smallbiggrin:

also thanks for the criticism

[Fyraltari]

There’s indication Banjo isn’t powerful enough.

[foelancer]

not yet :smallbiggrin:

also this a rather silly theory and not to be taken to seriously
it would still be cool though

[Sir_Norbert]

No, it really would not be cool for an epic tale of heroes and grandiose villains to be resolved by a silly one-off joke that used up all its potential a thousand strips ago.

[understatement]

No, it really would not be cool for an epic tale of heroes and grandiose villains to be resolved by a silly one-off joke that used up all its potential a thousand strips ago.

It'd be cool for them to mention how much the idea won't fly --

and then launch into, idk, the series of epic battles that may or may not follow.

Just to rub it in the audience.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It'd be cool for them to mention how much the idea won't fly --

and then launch into, idk, the series of epic battles that may or may not follow.
Maybe the MitD overhears about the quiddity needs, hears Redcloak's initial reluctance, and decides to make his own god...only for Elan to tell MitD about Banjo, hoping to explain why that wouldn't work, and accidentally converting MitD to Banjoism.

[CriticalFailure]

I think the only way any puppets get deified is if post resolution TDO and the other gods have agreed that having a new quiddity is good and a purple pantheon should slowly be built up. TDO looks around all the godforsaken monster races for candidates and the candidate with the largest following (thus the most deifiable) is Giggles, with the whole Orc tribe worshipping him.

TDO: "I guess we have to reach out to them"
RC: "is there no end to my suffering"

[Fyraltari]

It'd be cool for them to mention how much the idea won't fly --

and then launch into, idk, the series of epic battles that may or may not follow.

Just to rub it in the audience.
What? Have the same joke twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html)?

[understatement]

Have Elan pull out Banjo (yes, in the middle of a fight), remark how everyone thought it would play a role, put it back into his pocket, and continue trucking.

....







what?

[Mariele]

Alright, well now that just confirms that Redcloak's niece grew up as a cleric in dwarven lands and is totally going to be pivotal to Durkon swaying him.

I am here for this WMG.

[Morquard]

Alright, well now that just confirms that Redcloak's niece grew up as a cleric in dwarven lands and is totally going to be pivotal to Durkon swaying him.

She's clearly a polymorphed Minrah (who appeared in the afterlife as a dwarf for the same reason Roy's Archon is explaining here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html)), who will be revealed when she can't pass through the orange barrier.

[CriticalFailure]

It’s unlikely but I’ve seriously contemplated the idea that Redcloak’s niece was given to the circus their family visited, and will end up in dwarven lands as a traveling circus person. Plus there’s a high chance she’s looking for leads to find her family, traveling around in a circus seems as good a way as any for a low level goblin to search safely.

[understatement]

I'll jump on board with this.

I'm going to toss out that RC's niece traveled with humans up to the north pole, where they're probably killed by bugbears and she's spared because she's a goblin. She's been living with the bugbear colony for years, but probably at the fringes or maybe does some dungeon crawling with a couple of other bugbears. If RC encounters her (he's only been here a few days) the narrative will play her off as an ordinary goblin that's living perfectly happy without the Plan and etc, but SOD people will wet their pants.








nah.

[GreatWyrmGold]

She's clearly a polymorphed Minrah (who appeared in the afterlife as a dwarf for the same reason Roy's Archon is explaining here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html)), who will be revealed when she can't pass through the orange barrier.
That's the most reasonable suggestion I've heard for how Redcloak's niece is going to show up in the plot.

[Peelee]

That's the most reasonable suggestion I've heard for how Redcloak's niece is going to show up in the plot.

You clearly haven't heard the theory that she is the MitD.:smallwink:

[understatement]

1160 is literally the best strip to grace the comic so far. Who RC's niece was just -- blew -- my -- mind. Twist was awesome!

[Lord Torath]

1160 is literally the best strip to grace the comic so far. Who RC's niece was just -- blew -- my -- mind. Twist was awesome!Wait, what (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1160.html)?

[Fyraltari]

Wait, what (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1160.html)?

That. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584671-OOTS-1160-The-Discussion-Thread)
Take note of who the first poster is.

[Kish]

Wait, what (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1160.html)?
It's an April Fools day thing.

[Lord Torath]

That. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584671-OOTS-1160-The-Discussion-Thread)
Take note of who the first poster is.
It's an April Fools day thing.Gah! Stupid March 32nd customs! :smallannoyed: I should just go buy that Banksy toaster (https://www.thinkgeek.com/product/lgqu/), just to spite you all!

Well, and to spite my wallet, too, I guess. :smalltongue:

[littlebum2002]

I had to look at the Demon Roach Betting Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302014-The-Demon-Roach-Betting-Thread-Part-Deux) (May it Rest in Peace) to find all my old predictions.

A025 +1500 Yes - High Priest of Thor is killed by an undead OR an evil cleric within 200 strips of strip 914
Didn't win this one, but I'll say it was pretty close. They didn't kill the High Priest but they killed a lot of others.


B005 +500 Yes - Belkar's death permanently removes him from any agency within the comic (aka he doesn't get resurrected, or become a vampire, or a demon, or anything)
Don't know yet, but I still stand by this prediction



C001 +200 Yes - It is possible to go through the rifts unharmed

Still standing by this one as well


C003 +230 Yes - The Order will be the first to go through the rifts on-panel

Does the Snarl count as ruining this one?


D003 +400 Yes - Durkon is never resurrected

Ouch


E001 +400 Yes - MITD is a Protean

I'm not going to live or die by this one, I have no idea what he is


F009 -333.3 Yes - Geoff OR Ivy is in league with Bozzock

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


F015 +120 Yes - Geoff is why Ian hasn't escaped jail

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


G007 +100 Yes - Thog is alive (odds same for 100 & 200 strip timers)

Still standing by this one as well. He's not dead until we've seen the x's in his eyes.