evil outsiders and the mindwipe: what do they know

[JeenLeen]

I decided to start this thread after reading this in another thread

Those that are literally made of Law or Good probably would have a hard time coming to term with a personnification of Chaos periodically destroying everything and killing everyone. Ditto for the mortal Outsiders like Celia.

Utlimately, though that line is only here to adress the plot hole of Celia, Sabine, Qarr and the Directors not knowing about the Snarl. If you actually need a an in-universe explanation, just headcanon one. For example: their biology reacts poorly to the Snarl’s rampage as it releases random outbursts of radiations of the four quiddities through all planes. These are barely powerful enough to tickle the Gods but deeply traumatize the Outsiders who need a complete mindwipe to be cured.


For some reason, I had assumed that the evil outsiders (demons & devils) were outside the framework of the gods and thus that the Directors might know about as much as the gods do. However, this post made me rethink that and also rethink a few related things.

We do see one of the Directors (Cedrick?) having to answer to Tiamat. ...so it seems that the demons and devils might be subservient to evil Gods, not to just 'Demon Princes' or 'Archfiend Devils' (as in some D&D cosmologies). If so, the evil gods wiping their minions' minds seems fitting and fine.

So, um, is that the general consensus or are there conflicting theories about what the evil outsiders can know, given we know outsiders' minds are wiped after a reset?

[Fyraltari]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) is when they found out about the Gates and the Snarl.

At this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html) point they didn't know what was inside the Rifts, however at this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html) point they have no reaction to hearing about a planet inside, suggesting they already know and therefore have some means of information we are not privy to.

They say (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) their long-term objective is to destroy the Upper Planes and have a "non-compete clause" with the evil gods
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) so they are probably more like distant allies than anything else.

Until recently I would have said that an evil god like Rat (for his history with secrets) or Tiamat (since she can call the Directors or their hierarchy) would be the source of their knowledge but with Thor not knowing about about the world in the Rifts... Who knows?

[NerdyKris]

Why would they react? It's a planet. They probably just said "huh, weird" in their heads. The strip you linked to has them being very careful not to give anything away, and reacting in front of Vaarsuvius would have given V information that could possibly be used against them.

[Rrmcklin]

I mean, I don't know about a consensus, but it seems pretty clear cut. Just because the gods mindwipe them doesn't mean the Outsiders are literally incapable of finding out about the rifts and the Snarl.

But as for whether the IFCC know about there being countless previous worlds, and quiddities and stuff, can't say right now, but I also doubt it'll matter.

[Fyraltari]

Why would they react? It's a planet. They probably just said "huh, weird" in their heads.
Because the planet indicates the Snarl does not detroy everything.
We don't know anything about their plan but it involves the Gates and therefore the Snarl which means any data on the Snarl is invaluable to them. If they weren't confident they already knew more about the world in the rifts than Vaarsuvius it would be huge risk to not only not try to pry more info out of them but go the extra mile of silencing them.

The strip you linked to has them being very careful not to give anything away, and reacting in front of Vaarsuvius would have given V information that could possibly be used against them.
That would be true only if V came out of that knowing more than they did. Given that these are fiends in Hell I'm sure they'd have the ability to make v talk in less than the time they had with him.

[Goblin_Priest]

Eh, I think you have it wrong. They don't react at the planet, not because they already know about it, but they can't see it. Think of how the MitD is always confused when people talk about the gates and the rift. And even the Gods not knowing about the planet in the rift. The common thread here is that outsiders are not able to see through the rifts, despite them prying and peering into them.

At least, from the Outer Planes themselves.

Though, I guess, we can wonder... Gobbotopia's been there a while. It's possible that they've observed the planet, and thus that some outsiders have learned about it from them. On the other hand, Blackwing did not seem to notice the planet until he got real close. And for obvious reasons, nobody is likely to have gone that close. Redcloak wouldn't even send prisonners into the rift, considering it too reprehensible, thinking it would destroy their souls.

It's possible that they did not react to the mention of a planet in order not to reveal that they know less than V. They did gag V right after, which could be an attempt to prevent themselves from being provoked about revealing too much of what they know, or don't. Sabine does go to say she didn't know, herself. She might not have been told because nobody else knew enough to tell her.

[KorvinStarmast]

They don't react at the planet, not because they already know about it, but they can't see it. Think of how the MitD is always confused when people talk about the gates and the rift. And even the Gods not knowing about the planet in the rift. The common thread here is that outsiders are not able to see through the rifts, despite them prying and peering into them.

At least, from the Outer Planes themselves.

{snip} Blackwing did not seem to notice the planet until he got real close. And for obvious reasons, nobody is likely to have gone that close. Redcloak wouldn't even send prisonners into the rift, considering it too reprehensible, thinking it would destroy their souls. It's possible that they did not react to the mention of a planet in order not to reveal that they know less than V. They did gag V right after, which could be an attempt to prevent themselves from being provoked about revealing too much of what they know, or don't. Sabine does go to say she didn't know, herself. She might not have been told because nobody else knew enough to tell her. Xykon I guess didn't get quite close enough when chasing Blackwing to see in. I do not recall him ever having mentioned the world inside the gate.

Blackwing and Laurin ... I don't think anyone else has seen inside the gate on screen. (Will go and check BRiTF ....)
EDIT: Fyraltari pointed here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html), so it's more than just those two.

[Riftwolf]

Xykon I guess didn't get quite close enough when chasing Blackwing to see in. I do not recall him ever having mentioned the world inside the gate.

Blackwing and Laurin ... I don't think anyone else has seen inside the gate on screen. (Will go and check BRiTF ....)

Xykon did, but was more concerned with his phylactery. Yknow, the thing preserving the one thing he cares about: continued existence.

[KorvinStarmast]

Xykon did, but was more concerned with his phylactery. Yknow, the thing preserving the one thing he cares about: continued existence. Hmm, is it your estimate that Xykon saw inside the gate, or that he did not get close enough to see in?

Indeed, his primary field of view was the phylactery, but perhaps if one got close enough one might notice the world through peripheral vision ... but as I go back to BRiTF, and those scenes, I don't think he got as close as Blackwing did. Strip 659 is my reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html).

And the evil fiends on screen, IFCC, do not understand what Blackwing is staring at, so my guess is that they do not know about the world in the rift at that point.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, I think you have it wrong. They don't react at the planet, not because they already know about it, but they can't see it. Think of how the MitD is always confused when people talk about the gates and the rift. And even the Gods not knowing about the planet in the rift. The common thread here is that outsiders are not able to see through the rifts, despite them prying and peering into them.
What? First that's assuming the Monster is an Outsider, second the we know Thor didn't know about the Planet because he reacted to Durkon talking to himself about it.

The Gods didn't know about it because none of them as been stupid enough to take a look throught the cracks that lead to the one thing that can kill them. The Fiedns didn't know because any Fiend old enough to pass the information was mindwiped. There is no need to theorize that the Outsiders are physically unable to see the world.


At least, from the Outer Planes themselves.

Though, I guess, we can wonder... Gobbotopia's been there a while. It's possible that they've observed the planet, and thus that some outsiders have learned about it from them. On the other hand, Blackwing did not seem to notice the planet until he got real close. And for obvious reasons, nobody is likely to have gone that close. Redcloak wouldn't even send prisonners into the rift, considering it too reprehensible, thinking it would destroy their souls.
No Red did so so that they could tell everyone how O-Chul would have callously sacrificed them. Didn't work, though.


It's possible that they did not react to the mention of a planet in order not to reveal that they know less than V. They did gag V right after, which could be an attempt to prevent themselves from being provoked about revealing too much of what they know, or don't.
That's a relly stupid reason to stop someone from giving you info.

Sabine does go to say she didn't know, herself. She might not have been told because nobody else knew enough to tell her.
Or more likely she's on a Need-To-Know basis.
As Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman put it "Hastur was a paranoiac, which is a completely sensible reaction to living in Hell where everyone is against you".

Xykon I guess didn't get quite close enough when chasing Blackwing to see in. I do not recall him ever having mentioned the world inside the gate.

Blackwing and Laurin ... I don't think anyone else has seen inside the gate on screen. (Will go and check BRiTF ....)
Two thirds of the Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html).

[zimmerwald1915]

At this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html) point they didn't know what was inside the Rifts, however at this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html) point they have no reaction to hearing about a planet inside, suggesting they already know and therefore have some means of information we are not privy to.
They have any number of ways of knowing, from scrying on Vaarsuvius when Blackwing was telling her about the planet, or from one of Redcloak's called devils that could have observed the planet through the Southern Continent rift.

[Fyraltari]

They have any number of ways of knowing, from scrying on Vaarsuvius when Blackwing was telling her about the planet, or from one of Redcloak's called devils that could have observed the planet through the Southern Continent rift.

the First One is true. The Second one, heh, I don't see Redcloak summoning those near enough the Rift for them to see. I'm pretty sure Team Evil does't know about it. The Dark One might, though.

[KorvinStarmast]

Two thirds of the Order (oots0900). Link broken, not sure what you are pointing towards. Is this what you were referring to? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) If so, I had not completed digging through BRiTF, so thanks for the follow up.

[Goblin_Priest]

What? First that's assuming the Monster is an Outsider, second the we know Thor didn't know about the Planet because he reacted to Durkon talking to himself about it.

The Gods didn't know about it because none of them as been stupid enough to take a look throught the cracks that lead to the one thing that can kill them. The Fiedns didn't know because any Fiend old enough to pass the information was mindwiped. There is no need to theorize that the Outsiders are physically unable to see the world.


No Red did so so that they could tell everyone how O-Chul would have callously sacrificed them. Didn't work, though.


That's a relly stupid reason to stop someone from giving you info.

Or more likely she's on a Need-To-Know basis.
As Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman put it "Hastur was a paranoiac, which is a completely sensible reaction to living in Hell where everyone is against you".

Two thirds of the Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html).

Yes, that's assuming MitD is an outsider. There's strong evidence to support that he is, not not definite proof.

The Dark One peered into the rift as much as he could, when he first became aware of it. He wasn't aware of the dangers.

I think there is accumulating evidence about some types of creatures incapable of properly grasping the Snarl, and outsiders most of all.

Red threatened it, and then *did not do it*, because of how utterly immoral he considered it. He was definitely not aware of the planet in there.

Eh, depends on the play.

And yes, it's likely she's on the need-to-know basis. Still, doesn't prove *they* knew about it. They also made no comment about knowing it.