[3.5] Salt in a wound - what are the effects

[TallerSpine]

Throwing salt in a wound can be very painful. Has anyone seen any rules for what the in-game effects might be? Pain does not have condition effect, but Symbol of Pain causes a -4 to attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks for an hour. I'm thinking salt in a wound would be a similar effect, but much shorter duration and not quite so powerful. But, I would prefer to see some published ruling if one exists. If not, I will house rule something.

Also, caltrops and salt. Once salt grains get into a caltrops wound, it would be sharp grains shoved into an open wound on the foot. Would that add to the difficulty walking? So, you have a section of the floor covered in caltrops and the next covered in salt to make the caltrop wounds more painful?

[noob]

Throwing salt in a wound can be very painful. Has anyone seen any rules for what the in-game effects might be? Pain does not have condition effect, but Symbol of Pain causes a -4 to attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks for an hour. I'm thinking salt in a wound would be a similar effect, but much shorter duration and not quite so powerful. But, I would prefer to see some published ruling if one exists. If not, I will house rule something.

Also, caltrops and salt. Once salt grains get into a caltrops wound, it would be sharp grains shoved into an open wound on the foot. Would that add to the difficulty walking? So, you have a section of the floor covered in caltrops and the next covered in salt to make the caltrop wounds more painful?

Try walking in caltrops first then you can tell me if they would be more painful with salt.
caltrops are already very painful so I am not sure salt would help especially since the salt would probably not stay on the top of the spikes especially since the caltrops are usually spread by being thrown.

[Reversefigure4]

There are no published salt in a wound rules I'm aware of.

However, keep in mind that most adventurers shrug off falling from cliffs, getting stabbed with swords, get set on fire, getting digested by stomach acids, and a variety of other conditions that are more painful that salt in wounds. Do you need these rules?

[flappeercraft]

Not aware of any rules that do this but if they’re anywhere they’re likely to be in Stormwrack.

[TallerSpine]

Try walking in caltrops first then you can tell me if they would be more painful with salt.
caltrops are already very painful so I am not sure salt would help especially since the salt would probably not stay on the top of the spikes especially since the caltrops are usually spread by being thrown.

Salt in a wound is painful because the grains of salt are sharp and difficult to clean out of a wound. Large grain salt can cause additional tearing. So, it is not that the caltrops themselves would be covered in salt (that could possibly work, but really not what I described in my original post), it is that you walk through the salt after you have already stepped on caltrops. So, one square is covered in caltrops (ouch). Then, a few squares later, you walk over large grain salt (even more ouch).


There are no published salt in a wound rules I'm aware of.

However, keep in mind that most adventurers shrug off falling from cliffs, getting stabbed with swords, get set on fire, getting digested by stomach acids, and a variety of other conditions that are more painful that salt in wounds. Do you need these rules?

Falling off a cliff deals hp damage (which is the normal way of showing that something hurts). Getting set on fire causes hp damage. Getting digested by stomach acids cause hp damage. So, I have rules for all of those. But, there is a difference between injury and pain. There are effects that are not designed to injure, just cause discomfort and pain. Salt in a wound would be an example. No matter how much salt you pour on a wound, I doubt it will ever cause someone to die. But it sure does hurt a lot! So, hp damage does not make sense in this situation. But, something like Symbol of Pain offers advice for how pain could affect an adventurer. That is not the only way that pain might affect an adventurer, though.


Not aware of any rules that do this but if they’re anywhere they’re likely to be in Stormwrack.

Thanks! I'll check it out!

[noob]

Salt in a wound is painful because the grains of salt are sharp and difficult to clean out of a wound. Large grain salt can cause additional tearing. So, it is not that the caltrops themselves would be covered in salt (that could possibly work, but really not what I described in my original post), it is that you walk through the salt after you have already stepped on caltrops. So, one square is covered in caltrops (ouch). Then, a few squares later, you walk over large grain salt (even more ouch).

Except you have shoes and the holes from caltrops are not that big to let enter a lot of salt(even worse: if you have socks too then the shocks might end up filling the holes in the shoes partially after a few steps).

[ManicOppressive]

Painful things don't necessarily do hitpoint damage, since hitpoints work toward a critical existence failure at 0 that can't be achieved by all painful things. I mean, a paper cut on the arm may hurt, but twenty of them aren't going to kill you so a paper cut can't really be said to deal a full point of damage.

There are no rules (as far as I know--there might be something in the Book of Vile Darkness but that book can bite me) for pain having in-game effects and, honestly, no one with any kind of training and prowess in battle (or more generally anyone who deals with pain on a regular basis) is going to shrug off the caltrops through the foot and then be hampered by the salt. Except a ghost, who I suppose would do exactly that.

Also, salt doesn't hurt primarily because of its size or physical structure. It hurts because, in contact with liquid, (like blood) it dissolves; exposed internal tissue nearby is made hypertonic (saturated with salt) which triggers an electrolytic nerve response.

[TallerSpine]

Painful things don't necessarily do hitpoint damage, since hitpoints work toward a critical existence failure at 0 that can't be achieved by all painful things. I mean, a paper cut on the arm may hurt, but twenty of them aren't going to kill you so a paper cut can't really be said to deal a full point of damage.

There are no rules (as far as I know--there might be something in the Book of Vile Darkness but that book can bite me) for pain having in-game effects and, honestly, no one with any kind of training and prowess in battle (or more generally anyone who deals with pain on a regular basis) is going to shrug off the caltrops through the foot and then be hampered by the salt. Except a ghost, who I suppose would do exactly that.

Also, salt doesn't hurt primarily because of its size or physical structure. It hurts because, in contact with liquid, (like blood) it dissolves; exposed internal tissue nearby is made hypertonic (saturated with salt) which triggers an electrolytic nerve response.

According to what I was reading on the subject, it is also because the salt is sharp and can cause additional tearing of wounds. I was not aware of the electrolytic nerve response, but that makes sense, as well.

I agree, hp damage would not make sense. There are rules (See Symbol of Pain) for what happens when an adventurer experiences pain that is not accompanied by injury. I was hoping for something much less debilitating. Maybe just describing how much it hurts would be enough. A vivid description of the pain caused by the salt in the wounds could be more effective (at achieving a non-deadly but more interesting trap) than actually having a debilitating mechanic.


Except you have shoes and the holes from caltrops are not that big to let enter a lot of salt(even worse: if you have socks too then the shocks might end up filling the holes in the shoes partially after a few steps).

Have you ever walked on a beach in shoes? Sand gets everywhere in your shoes and socks. If you have a hole in your shoe and in your sock, it is getting in the wound almost guaranteed.

[Thurbane]

Pain effects are commonly represented by the Sickened condition.

[TallerSpine]

Pain effects are commonly represented by the Sickened condition.

That might work, too.

[Zaq]

Pain effects are commonly represented by the Sickened condition.

That’s what I was about to recommend. Sickened is a great way to represent “you just plain don’t feel good.” You can also apply an ad-hoc -2 (the “GM’s Best Friend”), but since Sickened is almost exactly that and also presents a convenient way to limit how many similar effects can apply at once, it makes sense to just use it.

[noob]

sickened from salt on the feet is weird when you can have someone hitting you with a sword to try to kill you while you are paralyzed then you rise from the ground with an epic wound and have absolutely no problems except for hp loss(if you did optimize saves and have correct hit points).

[Catlike Ghost]

Pain effects are commonly represented by the Sickened condition.

I've always done this and its always worked as well as it needed to.

[Powerdork]

The "sudden existence failure" bit of damage only applies to lethal damage, as a reminder.

[Selion]

I think you cannot compare salt in a wound to a symbol of pain. I once broke my arm badly during a soccer match, I haven't felt anything for a few minutes. Adrenaline snuffs the pain off, i think the same would happen in a combat situation, so pouring salt won't have any effect IMHO.

[Deophaun]

According to what I was reading on the subject, it is also because the salt is sharp and can cause additional tearing of wounds.
Things that are being dissolved tend not to be sharp. The edges are the first things to go.

Think lemon juice in the wound. I mean, I guess if the lemon juice was frozen first...

Have you ever walked on a beach in shoes? Sand gets everywhere in your shoes and socks. If you have a hole in your shoe and in your sock, it is getting in the wound almost guaranteed.
Yeah, but that's sand, and the chief attributes of sand is that it's coarse, rough, and irritating, and--most importantly--it gets everywhere.

[Malphegor]

Amusingly salt actually stops wounds from getting infected so easily, so you might even want it to prevent on-going damage from wounds if that's a thing in your game.

(sadly the only example of a wound that lasts longer than a round I can think of is infernal wounds, which I think is more than good old Sodium Chloride can deal with. Holy Salt, however...)

[Albions_Angel]

The phrase is usually "rubbing salt in the wound" not "getting salt in the wound". Walking on salt after walking on caltrops would sting, but you have to wonder if you are walking at all after caltrops (also, if you are in shoes, you arnt getting salt in the caltrop wounds).

Rubbing salt into the wound is a different beast. Its a torture. Its literally taking handfulls of salt and forcing them into open wounds. Thats where your tearing comes in. That much salt acts as a drying agent, and wounds are wet. It will very quickly dry out the wound and then the sharp salt crystals continue to irritate the area. But you try and do that to someone not tied up and see how it goes for you.

You are better off thinking about other things. Wooden caltrops would have a chance of failure (shoes would usually just crush them) but if they worked, your foot is now full of splinters. Coating caltrops in poison (make up a stinging poison that lasts 1d4 hours and confers the sickened effect) would also work.

If you want to stick with salt, I would say that throwing throwing a handful of salt works like the the pathfinder dirty trick thing? Flat footed for 1 round? Or blinded for 1 round? With a save? If you want to add a rider, then if the target is below half health then they are also sickened.

[ayvango]

Just treat salt as a weak poison with no secondary effect.

[Zanos]

I'm gonna go with nothing unless you want every sword, arrow, and axe in the realm coated with salt.

Maybe a DC 5 fort save vs sickened. If you aren't getting a pain penalty from a greatsword wound salt shouldn't cause one either.

[flappeercraft]

Yeah, but that's sand, and the chief attributes of sand is that it's coarse, rough, and irritating, and--most importantly--it gets everywhere.

Did you just.... Is that a prequel reference?

On the actual topic of the thread, I just checked and there is nothing detailed of salt doing anything to wounds. I revised the natural environments and there is nothing even on oceanic combat which you know, has lots of salt in it that could get inside wounds.

I also checked the salt mephit, a creature literally made of salt and has a claw attack that literally does nothing other than regular damage.

[Powerdork]

I'm gonna go with nothing unless you want every sword, arrow, and axe in the realm coated with salt.

Isn't salt stupid expensive and useful as a preservative moreso than a combat bonus?

[ericgrau]

Try walking in caltrops first then you can tell me if they would be more painful with salt.
caltrops are already very painful so I am not sure salt would help especially since the salt would probably not stay on the top of the spikes especially since the caltrops are usually spread by being thrown.

I agree. I don't think salt pain will be significant compared to the pain of getting stabbed.

The saying comes from a classic painful disinfecting treatment. Not something with no purpose besides torture. Don't do it if you have an alternative, though, since besides killing bacteria it also kills human tissue. Probably why it hurts. Actually a quick Google says you're usually not supposed to use any disinfectant besides pure water, because they all likewise kill healthy tissue too and so slow down healing. Disinfectants are more for serious emergencies when it's worth it to napalm the whole battlefield and start the village over.

[Zanos]

Isn't salt stupid expensive and useful as a preservative moreso than a combat bonus?
5gp is a pound of salt, not sure how many applications that would be. Probably prohibitively expensive for commoners, but not for anyone that can afford decent armor. Which includes both adventurers and anyone adventurers are fighting.

[Thurbane]

To be honest, you'd be better off using the salt to throw in the enemies eyes to attempt to blind or disorient them. Not sure if there's any listed rules for that, though...

[flappeercraft]

To be honest, you'd be better off using the salt to throw in the enemies eyes to attempt to blind or disorient them. Not sure if there's any listed rules for that, though...

The closest thing I can find is the Sand Spinner feat from Sandstorm.

[Zaq]

I'm gonna go with nothing unless you want every sword, arrow, and axe in the realm coated with salt.

Maybe a DC 5 fort save vs sickened. If you aren't getting a pain penalty from a greatsword wound salt shouldn't cause one either.

I was thinking more in the context of “you spent a meaningful action and probably an attack roll trying to forcefully salt someone’s open wounds” rather than “I rub some salt on my sword or something and then stab a dude.” Still not worthy of more than an improvised effect, but also not a freebie to deal with forevermore.

Also, doesn’t salt encourage steel to corrode under fairly typical atmospheric conditions? Blueshine might be cheap, but it still ain’t free (and I forget if it works on weapons at all). A one-off effect might not ruin a blade, but that can’t be good for long-term use without getting magic involved. Especially if you’re then bloodying said blade regularly.

[ericgrau]

Also, doesn’t salt encourage steel to corrode under fairly typical atmospheric conditions? Blueshine might be cheap, but it still ain’t free (and I forget if it works on weapons at all). A one-off effect might not ruin a blade, but that can’t be good for long-term use without getting magic involved. Especially if you’re then bloodying said blade regularly.
Not really. The salt would have to be wet first. Second blades are oiled to prevent rust, which would block all the water and salt. The oil might come off after stabbing, but so would the salt water. And after the fight you'd wipe off the blood and re-oil the blade as a matter of standard maintenance. Long before it has a chance to cause any rust. Even when it does rust, which takes hours of neglect after exposure, you can quickly scrape off the rust with your whetstone. Also something every warrior carries because you need it to sharpen your blade.

I still think the bigger issue is it's just a saying, it stings quite a bit but getting stabbed hurts too. Warriors are already putting salt in their wounds all the time as standard treatment. They can handle it. Salt in a wound should have no mechanical effect. Unless you want to start house ruling pain results from almost every single other effect in D&D.

[Holya]

The only 'salt' based damage I can think of is one of the enviromental hazards in sandstorm. It was something something doom salt of drying you out real good and you die.. I mean honestly the closest thing to damage from salt would be the salt mummy. Which does desiccation damage because its so salty it literally turns you into a dried meat with every hit. You got other desiccation based damage sources too. So if you want you can get real salty with your players.

I wonder how how many more times I can work salt and salty into this....

[Thurbane]

The only 'salt' based damage I can think of is one of the enviromental hazards in sandstorm. It was something something doom salt of drying you out real good and you die.. I mean honestly the closest thing to damage from salt would be the salt mummy. Which does desiccation damage because its so salty it literally turns you into a dried meat with every hit. You got other desiccation based damage sources too. So if you want you can get real salty with your players.

I wonder how how many more times I can work salt and salty into this....

There's also the Saltray spell (SC p. 179); 1d6 damage/2 levels (untyped) and fort save to avoid stunning for 1 round.