A defense of Beast Master: options and tactics

[Whiskeyjack8044]

So I've never played a Beastmaster Ranger, but I have a theory that it's a better class than it seems. I'd like your help to build a ranger that proves it's Bad ass RAW and also get a few rulings. Assume we are level 3 until stated otherwise.

Before anything else we need to decide between the wolf or the panther.

The Panther is flat out better Stat-wise, but the Wolf has two things going for it, pack tactics and it's bite. Assuming I'll be standing next to the Wolf, he rolls with Advantage and +6 to hit. Now if he hits he does on average 9 points of damage, and the target is knocked prone if it fails a DC 11 strength check. Pretty powerful early game.

**Ruling help**
Scenario: I command my panther to move a small distance away and command it to hide. As a bonus action I cast Hunters Mark on my target and end my turn. On the next round of combat I order my Panther to use its Pounce attack, it runs 20ft and attacks. *Does it get advantage from having been hidden?* If it hits with +6 and possibly advantage, and the enemy fails it's DC 12 saving throw, *does it make it's bonus attack Bite with advantage on the now prone target?*

If you rule favorably in the above scenario, then I sacrifice one one attack to do two with Advantage.

Wolves I think are a better companion if you are an Archer.
Scenario: Cast Hunters Mark on a target then move your Wolf to its flank. Attack with your Bow. Having no orders the Wolf uses the Dodge action. The Target must now choose between attacking the Wolf at disadvantage, or risking an Attack of opportunity from the Wolf to Attack you. If the Target moves towards you, and the wolf's attack of opportunity hits, the target might fall prone if it fails a DC 11 Strength check. If it falls prone it will be unable to reach you on its turn. If the Target is still prone during the next round, attack with the Wolf with Advantage. Should your Wolf be knocked unconscious, close into melee range and protect it. AFTER the immediate threat to the Wolf is dealt with, cast cure wounds on the Wolf and receive a thinkful lick to the face.

By the time you are level 7 you will hopefully have barding so your Wolf or Panther could have an AC as high as 20. This is good because instead of dodging you'll be using a Bonus Action to Help, giving yourself Advantage every damn turn whenever you. That's basically the Samurai's whole deal, only it's unlimited. I also, like the Idea of keeping an emergency healing potion around his neck like a St.Bernard that he can take to party members in need or that can be used to revive him, but let's not HomeBrew here.

A few disclaimers here: You're probably going to slow combat down; you play chess as a BeastMaster, not whack-a-mole. Second, if you are an experienced player, and you should be to play Beast master, you run the risk of out shinning the less experienced players and taking out some of thier fun. If your fellow players are less interested in Tactical Combat, they may start to get annoyed with you.

And an opinion piece: I came into D&D about a year and a Half ago when Crtical Role caught my eye (as an aside, Laura Bailey is a treasure and Vex is great, but Beast Master was not a great pick for her. Long live Trinket!). I know nothing about earlier Edition Rangers, so I don't have any expectations or emotional baggage when it comes to the class.

I think one of the tragedies of the Beast Master Ranger is that it looks so appealing to new players (I get a pet? Cool!), but it really requires a deep understanding of combat and the rules to be truly rewarding. People get soured on it early on and then never look back at it once they have the experience required to appreciate it.

The people who would truly shine as Beast Masters, Experienced players, have more fun making complex mulitclass concepts or Hombrews. And so the Beatmaster languages in a corner, suffering from an unfair bad reputation.

Sure I'll agree that the Beast Master falls off after 10th level a bit, but for those first 10 levels, with the right tactics, you'll be the MVP! Besides, the sweet magical items you'll be getting around this time will make up for the lack of features.

A lot of people worry about the survivability of their beast, but since you add your proficiency bonus to the beasts overall AC, that Beast could have an AC of something like 25! It's going to be pretty hard to kill the Beast outright. Sure it'll have low hit points, but even when it finally gets hit and goes down, you should be able to get him up before he fails all his death saves. When you finally find something that can kill it before you can save it, you and your party are going to be pretty high-level, after all this time the beats death will be quite dramatic and make for a great session of role playing. Unless the Cleric just brings him back.

All in all I think the Beast Master is a great class, but again, I've never actually played one, who knows What changes when the dice hit the table. I think a responsible DM should steer new players or less technically inclined players away from the class, ask them what it is that appeals to them in the class, remind them they don't have to be a ranger to get a pet. I also think old players that are looking for something crunchy and stimulating should give the Beast Master another chance.

What do you guys think, are my tactics sound? Do you have any other cool tips or experiences with a RAW ranger? I'd love to hear your opinions.

** edit** Tried to clean up my ramblings a bit, if someone below seems out of context or crazy now, it's because they were helping me.

[Tanarii]

No, you dont get a bonus action twf attack if you have your pet attack. S&B and Defense is the better option. Or 2H even. But since you dont attack as often, a defensive built is a good path. Sentinel is a decent Feat to consider btw.

Generally speaking Hunter's Mark isnt your go-to for Beastmaster Ranger spells. Ensnaring Strike is better. You're more about area denial anyway, so it fits with the intended goal.

Agreed wolf with pack tactics is the way to go. Don't forget to buy barding for a higher AC. Chain shirt barding to start, breastplate barding later.

Edit: dont forget your companion can stay next to your squishies and get pack tactics. You dont have to stick together, you can rotate in and out of the front line. If youre going that route 2H is a good option to consider because you'll be extra attacki ng yourself sometimes, while the wolf is on OA/blocker duty with squishies.

[Man_Over_Game]

The tactics you've listed are good in the specialized scenarios that they're in, but there are still a few concerns:


The saving throws your pet is using don't scale. While everyone else's DCs increase as proficiencies go up, your pet's do not.
Knocking a creature prone and attacking it is a strong tactic, but unreliable for someone with few attacks per turn, since the creature is unlikely to stay prone long enough for an entire round to elapse.
Additionally, in relation to knocking an enemy prone, that can cause Disadvantage to any ranged attacks you might use with that weapon.
And while you do still get your Bonus Action after sending out your Panther, you cannot use it with TWF (since you did not use your action to make an attack with your main hand).
Hunter's Mark, or other spells, do not treat your beast as a trigger for its activation (except with Self targeting spells after level 15).


I'm not sure where your DC values are from, though. The Wolf that I'm looking at has a DC of 11 on the Strength-prone effect. Although I might have an older version.

[NorthernPhoenix]

The problem with Beast Master imo is that even if you configure it to be adequate DPR wise, it doesn't feel good to play, compared to most other pet classes from other games, or even within 5e...

[LudicSavant]

So I've never played a Beastmaster Ranger, but I have a theory that it's a better class than it seems.
You don't seem to be comparing the Beastmaster to any alternative options here. Take for instance an optimized Necromancer, or a Paladin fully utilizing Find Steed / Greater Steed.

What exactly do you believe that the Beastmaster Ranger is superior to, if anything?

[Griswold]

Before anything else we need to decide between the wolf or the panther.


You're thinking narrowly. I think the real question is Pteranodon or Male Steeder. If you're a small Ranger, both make excellent mounts, either for melee or ranged attacks. If you're a melee kobold, having a mount gets you advantage on all attack rolls, which is superb.

Pteranodon can fly. Since it has flyby attack, you can also have it use the Help action in combat for you once you reach level 7. Bonus points if you've also got access to a familiar, so you're getting advantage on all attacks.

The Male Steeder is as fast as a Pteranodon (since it can jump 60 feet), and it can spider climb. If you're going to be in lots of dungeons where your companion can't fly, this is probably the way to go.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I'm not sure where your DC values are from, though. The Wolf that I'm looking at has a DC of 11 on the Strength-prone effect. Although I might have an older version.

You add your proficiency to any of its skills or Saving throws. So it does scale as you gain levels. At level 3 I'm adding my proficiency to the to the Wolf's, thus raising the DC by 2.

Griswold, the advantage of the Wolf and the Panther is that they can be found in any environment and thus fit in any setting. Plus what is that big flying lizard gonna be doing when you are fighting in doors :p. I didn't see the Steeder in my list of options but I'll go look at it's stats.

LucidSavant, I don't think it is Superior. I wouldn't say any class is superior to any other, otherwise we'd all just play that class. Other people seem to be under the impression that's Beastmaster is inferior to all other classes, which I seek to disprove.

P.S. I'm not very forum Savy to begin with and I'm using a phone, so apologies if my posts are eye sores/clumsy.

[LudicSavant]

LucidSavant, I don't think it is Superior. I wouldn't say any class is superior to any other, otherwise we'd all just play that class. Other people seem to be under the impression that's Beastmaster is inferior to all other classes, which I seek to disprove.

If you want to prove that, you should be making comparisons to some of the competition that's generally recognized as strong and demonstrating that it can at least match their performance.

[Griswold]

Griswold, the advantage of the Wolf and the Panther is that they can be found in any environment and thus fit in any setting. Plus what is that big flying lizard gonna be doing when you are fighting in doors :p. I didn't see the Steeder in my list of options but I'll go look at it's stats.

Pteranodon is better outside, Male Steeder is better indoors. That was the gist of my comparison, honestly. And the Male Steeder is basically a Giant Wolf Spider (but it has 30' movement, a 60' jump, and a grapple attack). It's from Out of the Abyss.*

But as far as fitting into the setting, both of them work great and are flavorful anywhere, if you ask me:
(i) Be a halfling from the Talenta Plains (for Eberron), or anyone from Chult (if Forgotten Realms), the Isle of Dread (Mystara) to get a Pteranodon. Every setting has a place full of dinosaurs. If not, then reskin it as a large bird or small roc.
(ii) Be a kobold, svirfneblin, or goblin from the underdark to get a big spider.

*It got reprinted in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, but as a monstrosity, sadly. Giant Wolf Spider is still a beast.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

If you want to prove that, you should be making comparisons to some of the competition that's generally recognized as strong and demonstrating that it can at least match their performance.

I'm sorry but I don't think that's really an issue. How can a one class be better than another? If you are a Barbarian you are objectively better at hitting people with heavy things, but that doesn't matter to a Wizard. Why would I compare the two? Are we measuring and comparing damage output per turn? Does that make fighters better than clerics or bards? What about the other pillars of play?

The only thing you can really compare is how difficult a class is to play. Barbarians, Monks, and Fighters are super easy to play, and that simplicity can be a lot of fun! Beast Master Rangers, however, are a lot harder to play. You have to know what is going on around you, you have to pay attention to the environment, you have to keep up with enemy movement, and you have to plan ahead with your action economy. Harder to play doesn't mean worse though. Beast Master is about crowd control and making the attacks that you do take count.

[Man_Over_Game]

You add your proficiency to any of its skills or Saving throws. So it does scale as you gain levels. At level 3 I'm adding my proficiency to the to the Wolf's, thus raising the DC by 2.


Saving Throws, not DC's.

It's saying that if your Panther has to make a Dexterity Saving Throw, and your Panther is proficient in Dexterity Saving Throws (it has its Dexterity Saving Throw explicitly listed on its stat block), then it adds your Proficiency to it.

The DCs of its special abilities/attacks are unchanged by the Ranger's Proficiency in any way.

[KorvinStarmast]

Saving Throws, not DC's.

It's saying that if your Panther has to make a Dexterity Saving Throw, and your Panther is proficient in Dexterity Saving Throws (it has its Dexterity Saving Throw explicitly listed on its stat block), then it adds your Proficiency to it.

The DCs of its special abilities/attacks are unchanged by the Ranger's Proficiency in any way. For some reason, that does not sound right, so a thank you to you to motivate me to go and look that up. It may be. As I've got an eye on a beast master ranger for a possible fill in when my brother starts DMing again ... I need to know.

EDIT
Aha, yes, you nailed it. Thanks.

Ranger’s Companion(Source = PHB via roll20, the errata seems to be included)

At 3rd level, you gain a beast companion that accompanies you on your Adventures and is trained to fight alongside you. Choose a beast that is no larger than Medium and that has a Challenge rating of 1/4 or lower (the hawk, Mastiff, and Panther are examples). Add your Proficiency Bonus to the beast’s AC, Attack rolls, and Damage Rolls, as well as to any Saving Throws and Skills it is proficient in. Its hit point maximum equals the hit point number in its stat block or four times your Ranger level, whichever is higher. Like any creature, it can spend Hit Dice during a Short Rest to regain Hit Points.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Pteranodon is better outside, Male Steeder is better indoors. That was the gist of my comparison, honestly.
*It got reprinted in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, but as a monstrosity, sadly. Giant Wolf Spider is still a beast.

I still think a Wolf is better 3-6 level. Out side of combat that Wolfs perception is going to come in real handy, and if yours is higher somehow, he can still help you and give you advantage on the roll. Plus his default attack has a chance to knock enemies prone. Pteranodon don't have much going for them other than fly-by and that Small Creatures can ride them. Now after Level 7 Pteranodon become amazing. Swoop in, help, flyby, swoop away, dodge? Yes please! I'll point out that there's no rule saying you can't dismiss your beasts and bond with another at a later level. Just release your loyal Doggo back into the wild with a single stoic tear running down your cheek. Console yourself with the new kick ass flying lizard.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Saving Throws, not DC's.

Good catch! Still, at lower levels it's gonna feel good to see Fiddo, pull the occasional poor SOB to the ground, and an extra attack of opportunity is still pretty Rad.

The original post kinda evolved as I was typing it, so it's not really a guide or an argument or cry for help. Maybe I'll go back and clean it up at some point.

[LudicSavant]

I'm sorry but I don't think that's really an issue. How can a one class be better than another? If you are a Barbarian you are objectively better at hitting people with heavy things, but that doesn't matter to a Wizard. Why would I compare the two? Are we measuring and comparing damage output per turn? Does that make fighters better than clerics or bards? What about the other pillars of play?

The only thing you can really compare is how difficult a class is to play. Barbarians, Monks, and Fighters are super easy to play, and that simplicity can be a lot of fun! Beast Master Rangers, however, are a lot harder to play. You have to know what is going on around you, you have to pay attention to the environment, you have to keep up with enemy movement, and you have to plan ahead with your action economy. Harder to play doesn't mean worse though. Beast Master is about crowd control and making the attacks that you do take count.

If you believe it’s not possible to compare the effectiveness of options, on what basis can you claim that people are wrong about the Beastmaster?

“A is just as effective as B” is an evaluation of the relative effectiveness of elements, just as surely as “A is not as effective as B” or “A is more effective than B.” It isn’t some default position.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I played a Revised Ranger BM halfling with a panther through Levels 1-20. It was a tower defense sort of accelerated campaign that was combat only. Took about 10-15 sessions give or take. When we were level 20 I killed my whole party in a battle royale we did for fun. Everyone had roughly the same level of magic equipment/weapons. The BM allows some level of tactics and strategy that many other classes don't get access to, or at least not in the same way. I was surprised at how effective I was through every stage of play. It's definitely underrated, even if it isn't "the most powerful." It's certainly not sub-optimal, as many people would have you believe. I haven't played through the PHB BM though, so I won't comment on that one. I can't imagine it'd be all that different, though it's certainly not quite as good in many areas.




“A is just as effective as B” is an evaluation of the relative effectiveness of elements, just as surely as “A is not as effective as B” or “A is more effective than B.” It isn’t some default position.

That statement is true, but I think it misses his point.

I think his point is just that he believes comparing classes is like saying that a perfectly good orange is a bad fruit because it's not red and shiny like this cool apple. In other words, apples to oranges...

[Naanomi]

Giant Crab is my favorite... rock that AC without fussing about barding; and grapple stuff. Use Ensnaring Strike with a Net to to triple-lockdown a wily target

Of course, it still dies to AOEs and environmental hazards quickly

[Daghoulish]

I played a Revised Ranger.

I haven't played through the PHB BM though, so I won't comment on that one. I can't imagine it'd be all that different, though it's certainly not quite as good in many areas.

It is exceptionally different. Your pet has a drastically reduced HP value due to their hp being 4 times your ranger level rather than just getting more hit dice. It doesn't get it's own turn and can't attack without you telling it too, drastically reducing just how much punishment that it can deal. It never gets proficiency with any saves beyond if it starts with any(barley any do). It never gets coordinated attacks (no extra attacks beyond when you tell it too), beasts defense (it only has advantage on dex saves when you don't attack with it due to errata making it take the dodge action when you do nothing with it), storm of claws and fangs (it has no aoe options at all beyond choosing different targets), or superior beasts defense (it can never reduce damage to itself).

The only thing that PHB ranger has over revised is shared spell at 15th, where when you cast a self targeting spell it also affects your beast. Great for Guardian of Nature I guess, but nothing compared to a better hp/more damaging/ more useful pet for the rest of the game. That's not even getting into the fact that you can't TWF with PHB beastmaster or that the wolfs prone would actually hurt a ranger who uses a bow.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

It is exceptionally different. The wolfs prone would actually hurt a ranger who uses a bow.

If you stay within 30 feet you can just walk up and stab the man that is prone. It's a free action to swap weapons.

When I was reading the Revised Ranger I got the impression it was WAY over powered. DreadPirateRobert kinda confirmed that for me. No one should be able to wipe out an entire party of level 20s. Having a whole nother turn as your beast is huge, it makes Action Surge look like small parts. That's why I don't think it will ever come out as official.

[CTurbo]

I don't believe there is any way to "fix" the phb Beastmaster to make it viable, but I do feel like the UA Revised version kinda went too far the other way, but mainly it was the changes to the core class that did it more so than the changes to the actual beastmaster subclass. Even still, the UA Revised Ranger isn't THAT OP. It's still no better than the Paladin.

I really like the changes the Revised Ranger made to the subclass. I firmly believe that your beast needs it own turn, but yes the Ranger should absolutely have to give up it's extra attack to get it.

IMO, the best way to run a Beastmaster is to be a small character and use a Wolf or Panthar as a mount with the Mounted Combat feat. That goes a long way to helping the beast not be so squishy.

But a mid-high level beast is going to be a force after a few ASI improvements.

[Daghoulish]

If you stay within 30 feet you can just walk up and stab the man that is prone. It's a free action to swap weapons.

It's a free action to stow OR draw a weapon, not both. You would need to drop your bow then draw your sword while moving closer. Leaving your bow on the ground making you have to go back and pick it up. Not exactly free, but pretty close.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Leaving your bow on the ground making you have to go back and pick it up.

Just hold the Bow in your left and draw your 1H sword and attack with the right, no need to drop it. Stow the sword on your next turn if you want to use the Bow. If you have an unreasonable DM take the Bow with you and then drop it.

[LudicSavant]

That statement is true, but I think it misses his point.

I think his point is just that he believes comparing classes is like saying that a perfectly good orange is a bad fruit because it's not red and shiny like this cool apple. In other words, apples to oranges...

He is already comparing classes when he says that the Beastmaster is at a power level higher than other people think relative to other classes. Then saying that he thinks you can't compare anything. Which raises the question: On what basis did he arrive at his conclusion?

Just saying "apples and oranges" isn't a valid point to be made here. And indeed, is a valid point in far less circumstances than you might expect. It's actually kind of infamous amongst scientists for its use as a false idiom, which is why they take the time to write stuff like this: https://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html or this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27565/

[Whiskeyjack8044]

IMO, the best way to run a Beastmaster is to be a small character and use a Wolf or Panthar as a mount with the Mounted Combat feat. That goes a long way to helping the beast not be so squishy.

I stayed away from Homebrews for the sake of my argument, but a magic item I'd dole out to any 11th level BM I was DMing for would be the "Reins of Beast Master". I don't know how exact I'd temper it, but it would basicly work like the Enlarge spell. Now A medium size ranger can have their own BattleCat.

Speaking of Mounts, I just did a deep dive on Mounted Combat in a misguided attempt at a mounted Swashbuckler. Normally your mount takes a turn before or after you, so you can't move, attack, move, but since a Beats shares your turn, hit and run tactics are now viable. Still, you'd have to wait until lvl 7 to get disengaged as a bonus action.

Here's a thought, could someone else ride your beast, use its movement via the mount rules before or after it's turn, then could you move it and use its actions on your turn like normal? Poor thing would get exhausted running back and forth.

[Zalabim]

You don't seem to be comparing the Beastmaster to any alternative options here. Take for instance an optimized Necromancer, or a Paladin fully utilizing Find Steed / Greater Steed.

What exactly do you believe that the Beastmaster Ranger is superior to, if anything?
I believe it's superior to the Hunter Ranger, for what it's worth.

He is already comparing classes when he says that the Beastmaster is at a power level higher than other people think relative to other classes. Then saying that he thinks you can't compare anything. Which raises the question: On what basis did he arrive at his conclusion?

Just saying "apples and oranges" isn't a valid point to be made here. And indeed, is a valid point in far less circumstances than you might expect. It's actually kind of infamous amongst scientists for its use as a false idiom, which is why they take the time to write stuff like this: https://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html or this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27565/
He never actually compares it to other classes in the first place. Just says he theorizes the class is better than it seems. You're the only one begging comparison to other classes.

Since I did this before, I'll give you the benchmarks the snake-master hit before:
Against AC 13, the snake does 6.925 piercing and assuming 50% saves, 7.4 poison damage. Against a Deep Gnome (randomly rolled on CR 3 list), the snake does 6.075 piercing and 6.02 poison. The ranger doesn't attack at this level.
14.325 DPR against AC 13, or 12.095 against the Deep Gnome.
Against AC 15, the snake does 7.25 piercing and 6.975 poison at 60/40 pass/fail saves. Against a Shambling Mound (randomly rolled on CR 5 list), the snake does 7.25 piercing and 6.7125 poison.

A Sharpshooter may prefer the snake if they can use poison, in which case they average 10.2 piercing with a heavy crossbow and HM and 6.7125 poison per round, slightly more than the 11.95 piercing and 4.475 poison when using power attack. Total average of 30.875 against the Shambling Mound, which will take them 4.4 rounds, so 5 shots since the ranger is more than half the damage here, to defeat.
30.875 DPR against a shambling mound.
Against AC 17, the snake does 7.475 piercing and 7 poison assuming 60/40 pass/fail. Against the (CR 11 list now) Gynosphinx, the snake does 3.5625 piercing (resistance) and 6.7375 poison. In any case, the snake attacks twice, giving me totals of 28.95 and 20.6.

Both rangers have access to Conjure Animals now, so I'm gonna assume they're using it in an important fight, being beast masters. It's worth mentioning the Gynosphinx can dispel magic with its legendary actions, and it has more slots than you do.

The snakeshooter averages 10.525 piercing and 4.8125 poison with power attack and the heavy crossbow, or 8.15 piercing and 7.21875 poison without power attack, which is marginally better. This is notable against the gynosphinx where it's 5.1375 piercing and 4.8125 poison with power attack versus 3.8875 piercing and 7.21875 poison without. So its totals are going to be 15.36875+28.95=44.31875 against AC 17 and 11.10625+20.6=31.70625 against the Gynosphinx.
44.31875 DPR against AC 17, 31.70625 against the Gynosphinx.
Against AC 19, the snake averages 8.875 piercing and 7.98 poison assuming 60/40 on saves. Against (rolling) an Ancient White Dragon, the snake averages 8.25 piercing and 5.2 poison (+14 con save.) Pet totals are 33.71 and 26.9.

Against AC 19, the snakeshooter averages 10.525 piercing and 5.7 poison with power attack or 8.15 piercing and 8.55 poison without power attack. The better total is 16.7. Against the dragon, the snakeshooter averages 9.5 piercing and 3.6 poison with power attack or 7.625 piercing and 5.6 poison without. The better total is 13.225. Overall total is 50.41 and 40.125.
Finally, 50.41 DPR against AC 19, or 40.125 DPR against an ancient white dragon.
The linked post has more depth to its details, but it's a comparison between most optimized (and lenient when it comes to poison harvesting) classic beast master and the revised beast conclave with a wolf (which outdoes it in some ways at all levels).

[LudicSavant]

He never actually compares it to other classes in the first place. Just says he theorizes the class is better than it seems.

You're mistaken. He states in post #7 that his goal in this thread is to prove that the Beastmaster is not inferior to all other classes. Not just that it's better than it seems.


Other people seem to be under the impression that's Beastmaster is inferior to all other classes, which I seek to disprove.
____


I believe it's superior to the Hunter Ranger, for what it's worth.


Since I did this before, I'll give you the benchmarks the snake-master hit before:
The linked post has more depth to its details, but it's a comparison between most optimized (and lenient when it comes to poison harvesting) classic beast master and the revised beast conclave with a wolf (which outdoes it in some ways at all levels).

Cool, I'll take a look at this.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

It is exceptionally different. Your pet has a drastically reduced HP value due to their hp being 4 times your ranger level rather than just getting more hit dice. It doesn't get it's own turn and can't attack without you telling it too, drastically reducing just how much punishment that it can deal. It never gets proficiency with any saves beyond if it starts with any(barley any do). It never gets coordinated attacks (no extra attacks beyond when you tell it too), beasts defense (it only has advantage on dex saves when you don't attack with it due to errata making it take the dodge action when you do nothing with it), storm of claws and fangs (it has no aoe options at all beyond choosing different targets), or superior beasts defense (it can never reduce damage to itself).

The only thing that PHB ranger has over revised is shared spell at 15th, where when you cast a self targeting spell it also affects your beast. Great for Guardian of Nature I guess, but nothing compared to a better hp/more damaging/ more useful pet for the rest of the game. That's not even getting into the fact that you can't TWF with PHB beastmaster or that the wolfs prone would actually hurt a ranger who uses a bow.

You’re right. That sucks way more than I remember. I looked at it years ago and never revisited it since the Revised came out...hey OP, don’t play the PHB BM. The Revisded one is really good, but the other one sucks.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

He is already comparing classes when he says that the Beastmaster is at a power level higher than other people think relative to other classes. Then saying that he thinks you can't compare anything. Which raises the question: On what basis did he arrive at his conclusion?

Just saying "apples and oranges" isn't a valid point to be made here. And indeed, is a valid point in far less circumstances than you might expect. It's actually kind of infamous amongst scientists for its use as a false idiom, which is why they take the time to write stuff like this: https://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html or this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27565/

Look, I’m all for comparing classes. I don’t actually think it’s a good “apples and oranges” comparison. Though generally speaking I prefer to learn about English idioms from authors, poets, and grammarians rather than scientists. Idioms are in many ways nonscientific by definition.

That’s besides the point though, and I don’t want to monologue like Syndrome. My point was that with the exception of one statement that I think probably misrepresented his point, he’s explocitly arguing against comparing classes. You’ve told him he should be making comparisons, and he’s said he doesn’t want to. My point is that he’s making the case that in a vacuum it’s a playable class that can take you through levels 1-20 and you can have a lot of fun along the way.

Again, I’m all for comparing classes personally, but I don’t think that’s why he made the thread.

[Tanarii]

It never gets proficiency with any saves beyond if it starts with any(barley any do).Animal companions get their Ranger's proficiency bonus to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, any saves, and skills it is proficient in. Not saves it is proficient in.

Add your proficiency bonus to the beast’s AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as to any saving throws and skills it is proficient in.

[LudicSavant]

Animal companions get their Ranger's proficiency bonus to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, any saves, and skills it is proficient in. Not saves it is proficient in.

Add your proficiency bonus to the beast’s AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as to any saving throws and skills it is proficient in.

According to JC, animal companions only get proficiency bonus to saving throws they are proficient in. https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/01/does-it-is-proficient-in-qualifier-apply-to-beastmaster-companion-saves-skills-or-just-skills/

Note the positioning of commas and the like. It's not as clear as it could be, but apparently the intent is for it to be read "as well as to any (saving throws and skills) it is proficient in" rather than "as well as to (any saving throws) and (skillls it is proficient in)."

[Calimehter]

Question related to the overall topic:

Does casting Speak with Animals help your control options for your best companion?

I was under the impression that using the spell to "enable" language based communication would allow you to have more control over the creature via verbal "free action" type statements and free up your Actions for other things like your own attacks.

I suspect this would be more of a "ruling" rather than a rule, but wanted to check to see if there was something I was missing (FAQ or WotC tweets??) . . . or at least see if such a ruling had been discussed much before.

[Fyorl]

Yes, the rules text consistently uses the Oxford comma in its style, presumably to disambiguate exactly these sorts of scenarios. There is no Oxford comma in that clause so the meaning should be pretty clear to be (saving throws and skills) they are proficient in.

[NaughtyTiger]

This is a first...

Usually, people who never played a BM jump on here to rail about how bad it is...
You are the first to argue that it's good without playing it.

Meanwhile, everyone ignores those of us who actually play it.

Previously everyone railed against it cuz it sat idle unless you gave it a specific action (like dodge) and could never do magical attacks, plus other crap.
5 years later, they changed that, making it a vast improvement.

BM was always a fun class. after the revision, it is still behind other rangers, but much better.

your comments:
"I command my panther to move a small distance away and command it to hide."
hide is not one of the Beast actions Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action.

"and the wolf's attack of opportunity hits, the target might fall prone if it fails a DC 11 Strength check."
just kill the wolf: low AC/low HP
take the AoO: DC11 str is easy to bypass, the damage is small


"By the time you are level 7 you will hopefully have barding so your Wolf or Panther could have an AC as high as 20."
by the time you are level 7, you are facing big scary enemies and magic.
saving throws matter, and the beast stats don't scale to help there
28 HP is not much (3rd level fireball is 28 average damage, fire giant is +11 and does 28 damage twice.)

[Whiskeyjack8044]

your comments:
"I command my panther to move a small distance away and command it to hide."
hide is not one of the Beast actions Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action.

just kill the wolf: low AC/low HP
take the AoO: DC11 str is easy to bypass, the damage is small

saving throws matter, and the beast stats don't scale to help there
28 HP is not much (3rd level fireball is 28 average damage, fire giant is +11 and does 28 damage twice.)

Good catch with the hide goof! In an ambush scenario would the Panther benefit from being hidden? It can't hide in combat, but if it is hidden before then...

The Beast's low threat level is what keeps it alive. Most Dex saves from spells are AOES, if the Wolf is in the Magic users face, he will get caught in his own fireball. Other saving throws such as Con are more worrying, but if a spell caster uses his one spell per-turn to kill the Wolf, that's an entire round where your party is unthreatened by the caster and are free to act against him or his minions.

And if you are using your Beast to use its Bonus Action Help, it still uses the Dodge Action. If that Giant wants to make two attacks at Disadvantage, even if the first one hits and takes out the Beast, that's a lot of breathing room for your party in that first round.

I imagine in the later game when your Beast is not so much of a threat, most enemies are going to choose to ignore it. If they don't, they have to waste an entire turn dealing with it, assuming it's dealt with in only one turned. So either you get to give yourself Advantage as a Bonus Action every single round (which is pretty cool for a class with spells), or you give your party members time to deal with the smaller threats and thus out number the Big Bad.

I was scared that revealing that I've never had the opportunity to actually play the Ranger would hurt my credibility, but I want all the cards be on the table. If I ever have the chance to play again though, I'll definitely be rolling a Ranger!

[djreynolds]

The archetype is fine. It is a challenge.

Here are ways to run a beastmaster.

Uncaring brute with a wolf on a chain that stands in front of him, you use PAM and sentinel, and when your beast dies... you get another

And archer who use something like a dodging giant crab to force the enemy to funnel and then uses hail of thorns or lightning arrow to snag groups of the enemy

If you just see your beast as your off hand attack, it can be very cool. You have a rapier in one hand.... and poisonous snake in another

And this beast can be anywhere on the board, and its not a fellow PC, if it dies,.... its okay

I actually ran a strength based PAM/sentinel beastmaster with a wolf. I used often would concentrate on hail of thorns and had a dagger or dart ready to go. Hail of thorns is good for 1 minute

I ran an archer and giant crab, and this was nice because at level 7, I just had him stand there and dodge (pre-errata)

It is a challenging class but it very fun, I often would change out creatures based on the terrain. And for each new beast I had to come up with a new tactic.

My favorite was giant poisonous snake, the damage was very good early on.

A dip of anything, will hamper you getting to shared spell at 15th level.... so IMO, who cares its 15th level and you may never see it

So a dip of monk, always welcome on a dex based ranger, at 5th level let your beast attack and use you as cover, and dodge as bonus action. You can't do this every battle because of KI cost.

Fighter could be good for heavy armor and protection style, it seems cruel but the DMs, from my experience, love to strike the beast. The same way as PCs might want to clear out weaker mooks in battle. Protection style is very nice.

Any dip of cleric.

[NaughtyTiger]

I was scared that revealing that I've never had the opportunity to actually play the Ranger would hurt my credibility, but I want all the cards be on the table. If I ever have the chance to play again though, I'll definitely be rolling a Ranger!

bm is fun to play. flying snake, steeder, even stirge if you can snag it.

the wizard isn't front lines, so if the wolf made it to the enemy wizard, then the fight is already over.
until then the wizard will attack the party and kill the wolf as an after thought.
problem is when they die (they will die) you are out an entire archetype.


counter point, the action you spend using cure wounds is an action not spent killing bad guys...

[Ninevehn]

I ran a 1-20 game that had a PHB Beastmaster Ranger in the party. We used feats and multiclassing, though she went straight Ranger. She was a half-elven archer with a panther companion. In my opinion, the biggest weakness of the class is that people who play a Ranger with an actual pet (as opposed to a spell summon) care about their pet and don't want it to die. This isn't entirely irrational, either, especially if you want a specific type of animal companion. Good luck taming another pterodactyl and all that, you know?

She used her panther as a bodyguard/backline protector while shooting people with a Longbow, Ranger spells and Sharpshooter. Did excellent damage throughout the game, usually had something useful to add with the mix of Ranger, background and Half-elf skills, and was reasonably tough whenever anything managed to close with her. I don't feel that she suffered in comparison to the Warlock/Rogue, the EK and BM Fighters, or even the Druid and Wizard (the wizard was a conjurer, which has some design issues, but that's neither here nor there).

What the Ranger really seems to need, in my mind, is some sort of Soul Bond mechanic that keeps the pet from dying if the character survives. Let it get knocked out but survive if it is recovered/the fight is won sort of thing. Leave the taming mechanics intact for players who want to work through a menagerie over the campaign, of course, but have a way for people to keep their pet too. I ended up houseruling in just such a measure, though it only came up twice in the campaign.

[qube]

The archetype is fine. It is a challenge.odd ...

considering it shouldn't be a challenge (any more then any other character is), that would inherently be proof that the archetype isn't fine.


This isn't entirely irrational, either, especially if you want a specific type of animal companion

What the Ranger really seems to need, in my mind, is some sort of Soul Bond mechanic that keeps the pet from dying100% true.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

the wizard isn't front lines, so if the wolf made it to the enemy wizard, then the fight is already over.
until then the wizard will attack the party and kill the wolf as an after thought.
problem is when they die (they will die) you are out an entire archetype.

Yeah, but if you have the Sharpshooter feat, you are potentially doing big damage with advantage on that squishy Wizard. And you have plenty of time to Rez the Wolf, it has 3 saving throws so you have two turn to get to it. The Beast should be easy to replace with any reasonable DM.

I would like an expanded spell list, though I don't know what spells I'd want.

[NaughtyTiger]

Yeah, but if you have the Sharpshooter feat, you are potentially doing big damage with advantage on that squishy Wizard. And you have plenty of time to Rez the Wolf, it has 3 saving throws so you have two turn to get to it. The Beast should be easy to replace with any reasonable DM.

I would like an expanded spell list, though I don't know what spells I'd want.



the wizard isn't front lines, so if the wolf made it to the enemy wizard, then the fight is already over.
until then the wizard will attack the party and kill the wolf as an after thought.
problem is when they die (they will die) you are out an entire archetype.


no advantage if wolf doesn't make it to the wizard... the whole point of my post.

[djreynolds]

Yeah, but if you have the Sharpshooter feat, you are potentially doing big damage with advantage on that squishy Wizard. And you have plenty of time to Rez the Wolf, it has 3 saving throws so you have two turn to get to it. The Beast should be easy to replace with any reasonable DM.

I would like an expanded spell list, though I don't know what spells I'd want.

First, concentrate on the ranger.
Archery or melee.

Now, how does your beast make you a better archer.

If beast dies, can you still function at a competent level.

Some archers use a bird type with flyby. Not bad.

You can use a beast to help line up shots like lightning arrow.

For spells, I didn't use hunters mark. I used hail of thorns a lot. But those were my 2 1st level spells.

I had a giant crab, we were in Out of the Abyss, it seemed appropriate and it was pretty tough to kill.

When it died, and it did. I still had archery style and sharpshooter. I ended up taking 2 levels of war cleric. Found another giant crab, and used bless on myself, the crab, and our fighter.

Sometimes, I'd just leave the crab doing nothing. I had 16 wisdom, so I had 3x a day bonus action attack, along with bless, archery style, and guided strike... 3 nice fat sharpshot arrows.

Now obviously a hunter, is tacking on colossus slayer, but it's 1d8, it wasn't missed.

It's is a fun and challenging class, it's a choice to play this. Give it a go. I strongly recommend war cleric dip for archery and sharpshooter.

Have fun and good luck. If your beast dies, have fun and take what your DM gives you.