What bard college to play?

[salvadorio]

I got the question kicked off of stackexchange because it asks for an opinion. But I want your opinions!

But I'm a first-timer in a first time party. We have a pretty terrible team composition, with an elf fighter, a human rogue, and me: a bard. I wanna be sorta tanky, and maybe I should have picked paladin.

What college do you think I should choose? Probably no multiclassing, unless I have a good explanation.

I kinda wanna go Valor or Swords because I wanna be kind of a tanky mid/close-range fighter.

We're doing the Lost Mines of Phandelver campaign and then another campaign with the same characters after that, but I think it will end at like 10-15th level.

What college would you all use? Thanks!

[ProsecutorGodot]

You're not going to be a very effective tank as a Bard. Your spells and abilities don't allow for you to soak up damage and recover from it.

I would say your party composition really isn't that bad, it's hard to build a bad party. I personally would recommend Glamour Bard as a controller. It's the closest compromise in my experience for a Bard to have strong enough battlefield control to be called the "tank" of their group.

This is, however, a playstyle completely different from your goal to be a frontliner. Bard's do not make good frontliners, if you really want to be up close and personal I would recommend that you play a Paladin. If you're still feeling like you'd rather play a Bard, Swords is often considered the better of the two options.

[Keravath]

If you are planning to use a shield then Valor bard has proficiency and Swords bard does not. Both use medium armor. The valor bard has martial weapon proficiencies while the swords bard does not (just the scimitar). So the valor bard gives you a greater range of weapons that you can use with proficiency.

Both get extra attack at 6th level. Swords bard has flourishes while the valor bard has combat inspiration. Both are pretty good. Neither are really front line fighters though they can both contribute. All bards however are primarily spell casters which your group really needs anyway. I'll especially note that you WILL desperately need your healing word spell. This is the goto spell for bringing a character back into action when they have been reduced to zero hit points ... which will happen. :)

So as a valor bard, you could use a bow at range and support your team mates engaged in melee by shooting arrows, casting control spells and healing when needed. There are a lot of good bard spells for keeping one or more opponents locked down. Faerie fire can be great. Dissonant Whispers is good. Sugggestion/Blindness/Phantasmal Force are all good second level spells. Heat Metal can be situationally excellent if you are facing an opponent wearing metal armor.

If you need to melee you can pull out a shield and your favorite finesse weapon.

Your main stats should be Charisma - Dexterity - Constitution.

[rahimka]

An explanation that would explain/justify multiclassing Paladin and Bard is all in the flavor of your character.

For example: a Paladin with the Oath of Ancients is already supposed to be a shining light that inspires others and protects beauty, love, and laughter. If they lean into that role and the magics associated with it, they could transitions into Bard after a several levels. At that point both the College of Valor (all about Combat Inspiration and Battle Magic) or the College of Swords (refining their existing combat skill into ARTISTRY with the blade) would make natural choices that synergize well with their existing skills and motivations.

Mechanically, what levels you devote to each class and which you start with is tricky to balance out and depends on whether you want to lean more into the Frontliner or Caster roles (and which you want to start as). BUT you'd have plenty of spells slots to Smite and Buff/Control with and good Armor/Weapon proficiencies.

If you want to get really crazy with the multiclassing (and SAD), you could find a way to justify taking a single level of Hexblade Warlock (probably going to be a darker character, with College of Swords and maybe Oath of Vengeance), and just be the heavy armored, smiting, Charisma-based casting/attacking/damaging beast you know you really want to be...

[sophontteks]

Tanky is valor. That's the pick when you don't think your team can keep you safe. You are a full caster who happens to have a great AC and can swing if nessesary for some extra damage. But remember the full caster part, that's still your main selling point.

Shield and medium armor profeciency on a bard are really great and I think its exactly what you're looking for.

[BarneyBent]

What’s bad about your party’s composition? Are both Fighter and Rogue ranged?

Regardless, if you want to be able to be on the frontlines and multiclassing isn’t an option, Valor Bard is good. Medium Armor and Shields is a big boon at level 3. You’ll probably want a DEX of 16, which means Medium Armour Master becomes a viable feat selection.

If multiclassing IS an option, forget Valor and go Lore or Whispers Bard with a Hexblade dip. You get Medium Armour, Shield AND the Shield spell. If you go Lore Bard, take a second level of Hexblade for Agonizing Blast and consider Crossbow Expert at some point. If you go Whispers, you can just take the one Warlock level and focus on using your Rapier/Longsword with Charisma (allowing you to keep your DEX to just 14 while staying a big frontline threat). A second level is good but not strictly required.

Another strong multiclass option is to take Paladin 2 with Swords Bard. You need 13 STR to do so though, despite not getting Heavy Armour unless you take Paladin at the first level. Still doable if you’re happy dumping WIS and INT. All those extra Bard spell slots will make for much better smiting that probably makes up for not getting an extra attack until level 8 overall.

In terms of good in character reasons for multiclassing:

Lore Bard/Warlock - desire to learn more about the Arcane Arts led you to make a pact with an Eldritch weapon (maybe it’s musical in some way, like when it swings it creates a terrifying, mind-twisting melody).

Whispers Bard/Warlock - You are haunted by a constant whisper in your ear taunting and seducing you. You make a pact to learn its secrets in exchange for martial prowess.

Bard/Paladin - you were trained as a Paladin, but you have always been more fond of song. You see martial power as necessary and are willing to use it, but prefer to win people over or support them using the power of music. Bonus with this is it gives you an excuse to take Paladin first, meaning Heavy Armour!

Out of character reasons - I want to play a Bard, but I think our party is a bit unbalanced if I do, mind if I multiclass a bit to help balance the party?

[KyleG]

Im curious how you would describe the battle style of each school? What makes swords different from valor really? Im actually curious about this for all classes and their archetypes so if someone could direct me to somewhere a simple comparison is it would be much appreciated.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I'm a first-timer in a first time party. We have a pretty terrible team composition, with an elf fighter, a human rogue, and me: a bard. What college would you all use? Thanks!

Don't worry about your party make up, the stress is on the DM to accommodate the party, that said that's actually a pretty good party.

Bards are actually great healers. If it was me, I'd go Human Variant Lore Bard. I'd take Warlock Magic Initiate as my feat to snag Eldritch Blast and be a pure caster.

But this isn't me, it's you and I think you want to be a Valor Bard. First, try and convince your fighter buddy to take the protection fighting style. If he is down with that then just stick by his side with a Long Sword in both hands if you wanna do more damage or a Rapier if you want to be harder to hit. Your friend can protect you with his shield and you're right there to slap him with a cure wounds if he needs you. As long as the rogue isn't to far off, you can offer them the occasional healing word too. This is going to be a risky play style, but it's going to be fun and I get the impression that it's what you want to do.

Don't forget to take Bane, it's a great spell and since you won't have a Shield it could save your life. At worst it's only slight worse than a shield, but at best it's twice as good. Careful though, when you finally get hit you could lose concentration.

[BarneyBent]

Im curious how you would describe the battle style of each school? What makes swords different from valor really? Im actually curious about this for all classes and their archetypes so if someone could direct me to somewhere a simple comparison is it would be much appreciated.

Swords Bard is an offensively focused duelist build. You can use Bardic Inspiration sort of like a Battlemaster uses Superiority Dice, adding damage and effects to attacks. It’s not super strong by itself but it has flavour and you can get a Fighting Style.

Valor Bard is more defensive, it’s a good supporting subclass. You don’t add your Inspiration Dice to your own attacks, but your allies can use them to boost offence or defence, allowing you to focus on casting while enjoying a nice high AC.

Whispers Bard is all about psychic power and ****ing with people. You don’t get extra attacks, but your Psychic Blades make your weapon attacks much stronger - sort of like a mini, magic super-Charismatic Rogue.

Lore Bard is all about knowing things, from spells to people’s insecurities (cutting words). It’s the most versatile subclass.

Glamour Bard is classic performer Bard. Charm, enchant, etc.

[KyleG]

Swords Bard is an offensively focused duelist build. You can use Bardic Inspiration sort of like a Battlemaster uses Superiority Dice, adding damage and effects to attacks. It’s not super strong by itself but it has flavour and you can get a Fighting Style.

Valor Bard is more defensive, it’s a good supporting subclass. You don’t add your Inspiration Dice to your own attacks, but your allies can use them to boost offence or defence, allowing you to focus on casting while enjoying a nice high AC.

Whispers Bard is all about psychic power and ****ing with people. You don’t get extra attacks, but your Psychic Blades make your weapon attacks much stronger - sort of like a mini, magic super-Charismatic Rogue.

Lore Bard is all about knowing things, from spells to people’s insecurities (cutting words). It’s the most versatile subclass.

Glamour Bard is classic performer Bard. Charm, enchant, etc.

Great summary. Thank you. Now to find that sort of concise summary of the other classes archetypes.

[SleepIncarnate]

Im curious how you would describe the battle style of each school? What makes swords different from valor really? Im actually curious about this for all classes and their archetypes so if someone could direct me to somewhere a simple comparison is it would be much appreciated.

Swords is specifically a close combat combatant who uses one handed weapons, either through dueling or dual wielding. They specialize in special maneuvers with their swords to do extra damage, manipulate enemy positions, compensate for their lack of shield proficiency, or damage multiple enemies at once.

Valor is the traditional gish, perfectly blending magic and weapons. They can be as versatile in their weapon choices as a fighter (though lacking the fighting styles), and later on can combine magic with attacks all in the same round, allowing them to cast a spell or cantrip and still attack a foe (and things like booming blade or green flame blade from magic initiate are even better).

Whispers is like a cross between a paladin and a rogue. Their big thing is hitting hard in a single hit via their psychic blades ability. They also are big on inflicting fear in others, though most of their abilities are for use outside of combat rather than in combat.

Lore bards are your traditional spell casters, with their ability to take even more spells from other classes granting them massive versatility. They're basically the base bard class multiplied by itself.

Glamour is all about supporting their party and charming/controlling their foes, which is great against some enemies but not so great against those reistant or immune to being charmed.

Getting back to OP's original question, I'm going to repeat something others have said. Unless your fighter is a light armor archer, your party doesn't lack a tank. It lacks a support/utility caster, which is what the bard does best. As such, I'd lean toward lore or glamour and be a healer/controller. Also, work skills out with your rogue to cover all your bases. Let them have the traditional roguish stuff of perception, investigation, stealth, etc., while you focus on face and lore stuff.

If you still insist on being the tank (maybe the fighter is an archer), then I would recommend getting 2, 5, or 6 levels in paladin and going whispers bard. The reasons for these levels are divine smite (2 levels), extra attack (5 levels), and aura of protection (6 levels). For the oath, I'd recommend oath of the crown to give you some stickiness that makes it harder for foes to attack your allies. That said, you're still going to also be the main healer and the main utility caster, so this route stretches you super thin.

I do recommend getting the ritual caster feat with wizard and getting the find familiar and identify spells as your two spells. Unless the others go eldritch knight/arcane trickster, you're the only one with access to the identify spell, so getting a ritual book to give you room for another spell known is huge. It will also later on let you get other spells in ritual form like Leomund's Tiny Hut.

If you do become a melee combatant, what kind of combatant do you want to be? That alone will be a huge impact on your college choice. If you want to use two handed weapons or a shield, your only choices are multiclassing or valor. Dual wielding? Go swords. One massive attack? Whispers. You'll also want the war caster feat for close combat builds, both for the advantage on concentration rolls and the ability to cast with stuff in both hands. The ability to cast spells as your opportunity attacks works well also, especially if you've got booming blade. Getting that though will require multiclassing, the magic initiate feat, or one of your magical secrets.

[Citan]

Hi!

Honestly, all three of Swords, Valor and Glamour (with a tweak) are great.
- Valor is probably the best balance for what you want: medium armor + shield means good defense every round, which is important to help you keep concentration on your spells. Heat Metal, when applicable, will work wonders paired with that.
- Swords can be an interesting "Rogue-like" character in that you'd keep middle-line, just trying to aggro one or two enemies sometimes to lift a bit off Fighter's plate, and at higher level, you actually get as good AC than Valor "on average" and slightly better when it really counts (with Bardic Inspiration die being better and resource replenishing on a short rest), but it's a bit self-centered as a result.
- Glamour is actually the best party helper especially for your group, thanks to "THP+free move" for Bardic Inspiration. This is really a lifesaver at times. But Glamour has no particular proficiency, so then getting either medium armor proficiency (best) or at least Mage Armor (average) would be necessary.

So, if you really want to be a gish using weapon, I'd probably pick Valor because Bardic Inspiration can be used to help others and it gets the best sustainable AC at low levels.
If however your main concern is being tanky (but not necessarily using weapons), then...
- if single-class is an absolute, I'd go Variant Human Bard with Moderately Armored feat and go Glamour, using Vicious Mockery with my free hand while shielding myself with the other.
- If you are fine with a 1-level dip, I'd pick either one level of Life Cleric early (all armor + better heal + Bless for party) or a starting level in Fighter for armors and Constitution proficiency (I'd favor Life Cleric myself because no spell slot delay + many useful spells).

[sophontteks]

The best defense of a glamour bard is not being a threat. A great wizard is often a clear threat to the enemy. Not so true with that dandy of a bard prancing about. It's a dangerous gambit, but it can work against many foes who have the intellect to kill off the biggest threats first.

In battle Glamour bards look to make big impact spells in combination with their unique inspiration. The free move and temp hp are just fluff compared to creating openings for big AOEs, which is saying a lot because the temp hp and free movement are both great. Outside of that though, they are typically using viscious mockery and cowering behind cover. They've already tilted the battle in the partys favor.

I'd recomment invisibility for defense. The impact of their battlefield control is so great that they can afford to just turn invisible if threatened. They can still use inspiration while invisible too.

[Chad.e.clark]

If you are able to multiclass, a single level of Hexblade can bring a lot to the table for a Swords bard. With shield proficiency, you have a very decent AC, and all melee attacks can spec off of Cha.

At Swords 3, defensive flourish gives you both a boost to damage and defense. At Swords 5, you get those boosts likely 4 times a short rest, on top of having access to the likes of Hypnotic Pattern and Enemies Abound. Leomund's Tiny hut is an option too, so the only limiting factor for long rests is time.


A few levels after that, you probably aren't using level 1 slots for much more than occasional Healing Words. I would drop the shield and start utilizing the Shield spell to supplement your defensive flourishes. You can keep the benefits of the dueling fighting style while not worrying about having a hand free for somatic components.

Or you could take another tact and go Glamour after dipping Hexblade. At whatever point in combat seem most advantageuos, use Mantle of Inspiration to reposition allies (and give Temp HP), then drop Hypnotic Pattern.

Lots of options for bards.

[Heloski]

First of all get the thought of party composition out of you head, as long as you have someone who can deal good damage and someone who can heal you're fine, luckily both the other characters can do the first one quite well, so as long as you pick up Cure Wounds or Healing Word you should be okay.

If I were you I would go College of Lore, which can be "Tanky" in the sense that he can prevent damage with Cutting Words, you can pick up a plethora of spells early on with your Magical Secrets. Don't do what you need for a good "composition" though, do what intrests you. If you want to be strong in melee take Swords/Valor, Swords if you want to be better at fighting, Valor if you want to be a supportive fighter. College of Glamour could also be considered "Tanky" because it can preemptively prevent damage through Temp HP and their 6th level ability with the command spell. Whispers can be fun but I'd stay away from that to avoid stepping on the Rogue's toes a bit with Psychic Blades mimicking sneak attack quite a bit.

[xkcd44]

First of all get the thought of party composition out of you head, as long as you have someone who can deal good damage and someone who can heal you're fine, luckily both the other characters can do the first one quite well, so as long as you pick up Cure Wounds or Healing Word you should be okay.

If I were you I would go College of Lore, which can be "Tanky" in the sense that he can prevent damage with Cutting Words, . . . If you want to be strong in melee take Swords/Valor, Swords if you want to be better at fighting, Valor if you want to be a supportive fighter. College of Glamour could also be considered "Tanky" because it can preemptively prevent damage through Temp HP and their 6th level ability with the command spell. Whispers can be fun but I'd stay away from that to avoid stepping on the Rogue's toes a bit with Psychic Blades mimicking sneak attack quite a bit.

I'm not sure I'd really agree with your use "tanky" to describe the defensive casting (debuffs) of Lore or the crowd control of Glamour, but I suppose that's just a matter of definitions. In my mind, "tanky" means something like "resilient" or "survivable", and is traditionally associated with heavy, front-line archetypes able to withstand damage (it can also be used in a relative sense, like "he's tanky for a wizard").

Personally I think that Valor Bard is by far "tankiest" flavor-wise, picking up medium armor proficiency, shield proficiency, and martial weapon proficiency. Both Valor and Swords are designed for melee combat (getting Extra Attack features), but Swords lacks shield and martial weapon proficiency (getting only Scimitars).

Valor vs. Swords?

Valor Bards can use Bardic Inspiration dice to either boost AC or provide extra weapon damage, and they can lend this feature to their party members, which is huge boost to martials in any role (your Fighter & Ranger buddies will salivate).

Swords can get both AC/dmg from a single Inspiration die, but only for themselves, as part of a Blade Flourish action. They also get a few other maneuvers, which use Inspiration dice and are reminiscent of a BM Fighter.

Swords does get a Fighting Style though (Dueling or TWF), improving their overall damage potential. Their 14th level capstone gives them unlimited Flourishes, which is useful. Come to think of it, a Swords Bard with dueling and high DEX (with endless 1d6's to AC) might be, mechanically, the more survivable pure Bard build.

At 14th level Valor gets what is essentially a (at-will) reversed Quickened spell. Every time you cast a spell, you're allowed a single weapon attack as a bonus action. Imo, this is a really strong feature. Bards are full casters with a decent mix of options for damage/control/support. No matter what path you choose, you will be using spells in combat situations: they're pretty damn invaluable. The bonus attacks mean that you're actually able to spend a lot more time swinging at things, since you can do so even while casting all the spells you need to save your party's asses for the umpteenth time. I've also never found the bonus action slot super contested for Bards, but YMMV. I think Valor's criminally underrated.

Swords, on the other hand, sacrifices utility for superior melee damage and combat potential. Except as a bard, you'll still probably end up filling that utility niche; (if not in-combat, then certainly out of combat). You're unlikely to reach the damage level of a more dedicated melee (with only 2 attacks), but that's okay, because your skills and spells make up for that. It's basically a mini-Battlemaster which can get pretty high AC and decent damage. I personally think it's lackluster, and it can certainly suck being forced into a support role (even if that's what'll keep the party alive). Valor is cool cuz you're never fully forced into support, you can always get in a swing or two during combats.

Lore is also totally viable, even though it lacks armor/wep proficiencies. Taking spells from any list is super good, and you could easily tailor those to be more defensive/survivability oriented.

Also, there's always the option of multiclassing. You mentioned wanting to do a paladin: you still can! Pally/Bard is a good multiclass mechanically, as they can both benefit from the CHA, tho you'll prolly wanna find out which of the two you want to focus more. Good luck!

[BarneyBent]

Swords does get a Fighting Style though (Dueling or TWF), and Dueling is equivalent to the +2AC from shields

What do you mean by this? Dueling does nothing for AC. Are you just saying they’re worth about the same?

[xkcd44]

What do you mean by this? Dueling does nothing for AC. Are you just saying they’re worth about the same?

Woops, you're absolutely correct. I misread Dueling; I edited the post for accuracy.

[Jophiel]

I would personally go Glamour. Being able to work the battlefield, give the rogue & fighter extra hp and let them position so the rogue can work his sneak attacks feels like a natural choice.

But you want something tanky and Glamour isn't it so you should go Valor.

[SleepIncarnate]

Both Valor and Swords are designed for melee combat (getting Extra Attack features), but Swords lacks shield and martial weapon proficiency (getting only Scimitars).

I disagree with this. Swords bards are definitely built for melee, but valor bards can be archers or melee. They have nothing that leans them more one way or the other, as all of their abilities work for both.

The best way to think of a valor bard is as the flipside of an eldritch knight fighter. They both blend magic and fighting prowess, but they differ on which side they focus on. The bard focuses more on the casting side of things.


What do you mean by this? Dueling does nothing for AC. Are you just saying they’re worth about the same?

The fighting style does not, but the feat does, and those who take the style will often take the feat as well, but it applies to only one attack. Still, your point stands. Just saying I understand where the confusion came from.

[Citan]

I disagree with this. Swords bards are definitely built for melee, but valor bards can be archers or melee. They have nothing that leans them more one way or the other, as all of their abilities work for both.

I'd nuance that. After all, Valor get shield proficiency as well as medium armor and that is often quoted as the prime reason to pick it.
Also, the only thing that push Swords for melee are one Flourish (which you can really do without imo, that "Rend-like" abilty does not deal enough damage imo) and, to some extent, the choice of Fighting Style (note: Two-Weapon Fighting does work with thrown weapons, although it does come with significant bother because of drawing rules).

But the other uses of Flourish (extra AC or push), paired with the extra 10 feet speed you get whatever choice you make, can be extremely precious for a Crossbow Expert character, that lingers in mid-line or "close backline" if I may use such a word to still be in range for Healing Words or other mid-range spells.
Or even for a longbow Sharpshooter character, that wants essentially to keep his big concentration spell active whatever happens (and as such using Flourish on the extra AC exclusively).

And at level 14, it can be used as basically free +3 average AC which means over a day you get roughly the same AC as the Valor guy in shield and medium armor, except the Swords Bard can also, when things get heated, use an actual Bardic Inspiration die (average +6) AND stack a Shield from Magical Secrets as a reaction, for a +11 total bonus AC (so AC 17+11 = 28) *for the whole round*.
Whereas the Valor Bard, from 19, has to choose either +5 with Shield for whole round OR +BI as AC for a single attack.
AND the Swords Bard has both hands potentially free AND can use whatever weapon he use as focus too (honestly they should have made the "weapon as focus" thing a Valor Bard benefit imo but well).

-> Long run, Swords Bard is the better AC-wise.

[SleepIncarnate]

I'd nuance that. After all, Valor get shield proficiency as well as medium armor and that is often quoted as the prime reason to pick it.
Also, the only thing that push Swords for melee are one Flourish (which you can really do without imo, that "Rend-like" abilty does not deal enough damage imo) and, to some extent, the choice of Fighting Style (note: Two-Weapon Fighting does work with thrown weapons, although it does come with significant bother because of drawing rules).


They also lose their ability to use their weapon as a spell focus if not melee. That's another thing pushing them to be melee. Yes, they can do archery, but they're not built for it or intended for it. As for your logic of "shield proficiency means you're going to use shields," every GWM barbarian, fighter, and paladin counters that argument. As does every archer fighter. Yes, a valor bard has shield proficiency, but they also get every weapon proficiency. They can be a GWM/sentinel type in melee, or they can be a longbow archer, or yes, even a crossbow expert build.

Swords bards have SO MUCH of their abilities pushing them to melee that building them against it is basically saying "you know what, screw half of this archetype." Valor bards don't have that. Their proficiencies include long bows and heavy crossbows, their exclusive version of bardic inspiration can be used at any range, extra attack works at any range, and their level 14 ability works regardless of range. Swords bards CAN be ranged, but their focus is melee. Valor bards are built to be versatile combatants, able to work at any range. And both get medium armor proficiency, so that's not pushing them any more into melee or ranged any more than it does the ranger.

[Pex]

To help yourself tanking, consider playing Variant Human and take Inspiring Leader feat. The temporary hit points do help a lot, and your party will thank you. It may not seem like a lot of hit points at first, but you'll notice and feel its strength as the levels progress when a bad guy hits you and doesn't even do enough damage against your temporary hit points. You get the temporary hit points back every short rest.

For a little extra personal buff take Toughness at 8th level. You want the 18 Charisma at 4th level for your spellcasting and Inspiring Leader. Only take Toughness if you feel you really need the hit points. If you've not been dropping too often so far then it's not necessary, though it still helps of course. It's a luxury feat for you if you feel inclined.

If you are not playing Variant Human, consider taking Inspiring Leader at 4th level then go CH 18 at 8th. You'll need the hit points for the tanking role. It's a fair trade.

Experience has taught me Inspiring Leader is that good.