Hilgya - Next death candidate?

[Onyavar]

Hilgya still sticks around with the order, although her revenge on Durkon seems to be through.
Why? Does she have a plan to still inflict more harm on Durkon? Make him suffer justice (in her own, twisted way of doing justice)?

I think so.

My reasoning goes like this: In the past, people already called the Giant on the "awful/absent father, angelic/caring mother" trope. Roy, Haley, Durkon and Elan have exactly such parents. Vaarsuvius also fits that stereotype for their own children (even if we can't assign a gender: in their case it's just "absent parent vs. caring parent").

So, it's time for a subversion. Hilgya obviously provides for Kudzu in the best way possible, I want to point out that the comic has perfectly established that fact.

I know that some mothers love their children and care for them, but never wanted them in the first place, and resent them (more, or less) for suddenly springing into their lifes. I think that this might be the case here: Hilgya obviously resents Durkon. Kudzu, the unplanned product of their one-night-stand, looks just like his father. I don't know how much Kudzu impedes her in her daily life, but since she is a single mother slash adventurer, the best guess would be: a lot. Most important indications however: she named him after a tree-clinging pest plant, and she even handed Kudzu over to Undurkon. That action wasn't "against anything she stands for". Does she love Kudzu and want the best for him? I think so, yes. Does she want to make Durkon suffer? Oh, yes! Would she mind if Durkon relieves her of Kudzu? Let's just assume that the answer is again: Yes.

Hmm... This is a fantasy world, and she is an evil character. Just signing over the paternal duties to Durkon would be a mundane solution, and it would be out of character for her. She needs to rant and complain, and she needs a plan that permanently forces Kudzu on Durkon. That Durkon would cooperate willingly probably doesn't occur to her. I think she would expect him to politely decline, or weasel out of his responsability.

She wants [my assumption!] Durkon to live with the results of his errors; she wants getting him to take over a burden that he inflicted on her; and whatever other crude reasonings she can invent. And she has tested him to be a traditionalist dwarf and bound to honor. She might not appreciate these values, but she sure can abuse them.

So, I think her intent is to make Durkon promise that he will take care of Kudzu himself, if she dies.
Then tempt fate [Exarch?], get killed in the process and refuse to be raised; (after)live happily ever after.
Or, more drama: She gets killed together with Kudzu, but leaves only diamonds for one resurrection. We know that children go the same plane as their parents (Eric!); Kudzu would thus go to the LE afterlife. No way that Durkon would NOT raise Kudzu first; and of course he also wouldn't think of it as a punishment.

[The Pilgrim]

Or... she will try something stupid on Durkon, again, this time the Order executes her, and nobody cares to raise her as the only people honour-bound to do so, her clan, lacks the resources to do so due to a recent bankruptcy.

[Peelee]

So, it's time for a subversion. Hilgya obviously provides for Kudzu in the best way possible, I want to point out that the comic has perfectly established that fact.

Wearing a baby on your chest while actively going into battle for petty revenge is a definition of "care for the baby in the best way possible" I was previously unfamiliar with.

[MartianInvader]

Some counterpoints to your arguments:

-Hilgya has already taken revenge on Durkon, and doesn't seem at all intimidated by the Order while doing so. She could always just leave him dead and then plane shift away instead of this overly-elaborate plan.

-Durkon has clearly demonstrated to her that he wants to take care of Kudzu by asking her to marry him. Regardless of how she responded, it's hard to believe she thinks leaving Kudzu with him would be suicidal.

-Hilgya has done a lot for her own betterment. There's zero indication she's suicidal or wants to end her life.

-Hilgya has specifically demonstrated that she doesn't trust clerics of Thor with Kudzu. *Maybe* she would place more trust in one who is also Kudzu's father, but I think it's clear that she's not willing to just get rid of him. She's shown numerous times she cares about him (covering his eyes, worrying about his little lungs, etc.), so it's hard to believe she resents him as much as you imply.

-Handing Kudzu over to Durkon* didn't mean it wasn't "against anything she stands for", it means either a) it wasn't against her fundamental nature (a higher bar IMO), or b) it was against her fundamental nature but she failed her second saving throw. And yes, there's an argument to be made about how unlikely that is, but the fact of the matter is she failed her first saving throw, so it's certainly possible.

[Fyraltari]

Handing Kudzu over to Durkon* didn't mean it wasn't "against anything she stands for", it means either a) it wasn't against her fundamental nature (a higher bar IMO), or b) it was against her fundamental nature but she failed her second saving throw. And yes, there's an argument to be made about how unlikely that is, but the fact of the matter is she failed her first saving throw, so it's certainly possible.
I don't see how "come here" could be against anybody's nature. She didn't hand Kudzu over, Durkon* took him, she doesn't get re-rolled for reacting to her environment.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't see how "come here" could be against anybody's nature.

This is Hilgya, "nobody tells me what do" Firehelm, though. But yes, she probably didn't get a saving throw for a movement request, and as stupid as it is, it seems that getting her baby snatched away doesn't trigger one either (although I remain skeptical that you can remove a baby from a carrier without help from the person wearing the carrier, I am told that some ones do allow it)

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

This is Hilgya, "nobody tells me what do" Firehelm, though.
Hey now, the question is whether the order is against her nature, not wether taking orders is.

But yes, she probably didn't get a saving throw for a movement request, and as stupid as it is, it seems that getting her baby snatched away doesn't trigger one either (although I remain skeptical that you can remove a baby from a carrier without help from the person wearing the carrier, I am told that some ones do allow it)

Grey Wolf

I am torn between "A Wizard Cleric Did It" and " "The Dragons are fine but that baby carrier is completely unrealistic" is your complaint?"

Can I do both?

[MartianInvader]

For the various carriers I've seen, it's perfectly possible for someone else to get the baby out if the wearer is standing reasonably still. Heck, for some real-world baby carriers it's hard to get the baby out *without* the help of someone not wearing it.

[Resileaf]

This is Hilgya, "nobody tells me what do" Firehelm, though.

By that logic, it's against everyone's nature to take orders from a vampire and they should get a saving throw for everything they're ordered to do.
If "You hate being told what to do" didn't work on Haley after she shot V in the back, I see no reason for it to work on Hilgya for walking toward Durkon.

[D.One]

For the various carriers I've seen, it's perfectly possible for someone else to get the baby out if the wearer is standing reasonably still. Heck, for some real-world baby carriers it's hard to get the baby out *without* the help of someone not wearing it.

In fact, for a carrier located as Kudzu's is, it's usually easier for someone else to get the baby out.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

By that logic, it's against everyone's nature to take orders from a vampire and they should get a saving throw for everything they're ordered to do.
If "You hate being told what to do" didn't work on Haley after she shot V in the back, I see no reason for it to work on Hilgya for walking toward Durkon.

Haley doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, hate being told what to do. In fact, she is downright relieved when Roy is back in charge, having hated the leadership position. There are arguments against what I said -which I acknowledged already - but this is not one of them.


In fact, for a carrier located as Kudzu's is, it's usually easier for someone else to get the baby out.

Gross over-generalization. With the one I used, positioned exactly the same way, it was impossible for anyone to take my child out without my explicit assistance, and I was perfectly able to load and unload my child without any outside help (although it was easier if my SO directed the legs, it was not necessary for them to do it). But as we discovered once when my hands were busy with groceries, it was impossible to remove the child without me helping.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

I just don't think "let the baby's father hold it for a minute" would be against her nature.

As for Hilgya dying, my gold is on "no". I think it would feel off.

[Jasdoif]

This is Hilgya, "nobody tells me what do" Firehelm, though.I wonder if calling Loki "nobody" would amuse him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html)

[Resileaf]

Haley doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, hate being told what to do. In fact, she is downright relieved when Roy is back in charge, having hated the leadership position. There are arguments against what I said -which I acknowledged already - but this is not one of them.

Technically, she hated being in charge, it doesn't mean she enjoys being ordered around either. In any case, it was Roy's own argument, and I would personally think he knows enough about Haley to not have said that without meaning it. But maybe he could have been mistaken about her as well, who knows.


Gross over-generalization. With the one I used, positioned exactly the same way, it was impossible for anyone to take my child out without my explicit assistance, and I was perfectly able to load and unload my child without any outside help (although it was easier if my SO directed the legs, it was not necessary for them to do it). But as we discovered once when my hands were busy with groceries, it was impossible to remove the child without me helping.
Grey Wolf
Maybe your modern carrier is like that, but Hilgya is wearing a medieval baby carrier. It can't be as sophisticated than yours.

[MartianInvader]

"Hating being told what to do while simultaneously hating telling other people what to do" is not only consistent, it's a clear hallmark/manifestation of being Chaotic.

[Liquor Box]

I think that Hilgya is a fair candidate for the next person to die in the comic, because she is proximate, not a member of the order, and it is not clear that she serves a further narrative purpose (Kudzu also fills these same criteria, but I don't think the Giant would kill a baby character without fanfare).

[Ruck]

Or... she will try something stupid on Durkon, again, this time the Order executes her, and nobody cares to raise her as the only people honour-bound to do so, her clan, lacks the resources to do so due to a recent bankruptcy.

This certainly fits in the "dramatic irony / caused by their own actions" section.

I'm not convinced the Giant is going to kill the mother of a small child here, but there are certainly ways he could do so that would be keeping with the themes of the story and would feel appropriate.

[mucat]

I'm not convinced the Giant is going to kill the mother of a small child herehttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html

That's what Judy was counting on.

[Ildirin]

I don't see it happening any time in the near foreseeable future of this comic, especially not for any of the reasons about passing off Kudzu to Durkon in the opening post.

I will say to Hilgya's small credit that, though it's a small sample to draw from, she doesn't seem to be keeping tabs on her family and ensuring they remain in poverty. I don't find the scenario that she's following Durkon around to exact more revenge particularly likely.

I could imagine a possible scenario where Hilgya takes her brand of disproportionate revenge out on the wrong person, who has a similar or worse ethical outlook, leading to her death.

[Rrmcklin]

Hilgya's not going anywhere because a large part of Durkon's life was growing up with only one parent (albeit a good one, and a loving extended surrogate family) and Kudzu's to be in a better situation than him.

I don't think that totally tracks because Hilgya's a terrible person and I can easily see her being a terrible influence and danger to Kudzu, but, alas that's how this story is to go. She and Durkon will likely iron out some compromise by the end of the story.

[B. Dandelion]

A possibility I've been thinking about is Hilgya dying and briefly going to Hel, only for Durkon to resurrect her. So she'd have it rubbed in her face, in the most direct and terrifying fashion possible, that she was wrong about there being a "loophole" out of the whole bargain, and her only way out of eternal damnation would be to accept help from the man whose adherence to the rules she'd held in contempt.

[Keltest]

Hilgya's not going anywhere because a large part of Durkon's life was growing up with only one parent (albeit a good one, and a loving extended surrogate family) and Kudzu's to be in a better situation than him.

I don't think that totally tracks because Hilgya's a terrible person and I can easily see her being a terrible influence and danger to Kudzu, but, alas that's how this story is to go. She and Durkon will likely iron out some compromise by the end of the story.

Is there some reason you think "kid gets left with functionally abusive parent, no strings attached" is a likely outcome?

[Jasdoif]

Unless/Until Kudzu dies, I doubt Hilgya will be in particular danger of dying herself. Not that both of them living, or both of them dying, are exceptionally unlikely; but the complications and wasted drama opportunities for leaving Kudzu with a dead mother are rather numerous.

[Keltest]

Unless/Until Kudzu dies, I doubt Hilgya will be in particular danger of dying herself. Not that both of them living, or both of them dying, are exceptionally unlikely; but the complications and wasted drama opportunities for leaving Kudzu with a dead mother are rather numerous.

I mean, we just spent an entire book establishing that Durkon has a big extended family in this town. Its not like their only options are "leave him with Hilgya" or "take him into battle themselves".

[Jasdoif]

Its not like their only options are "leave him with Hilgya" or "take him into battle themselves".It's true; killing Hilgya to more easily hand Kudzu to surrogate parents is totally an option. A petty and/or wasteful option, depending on if we're talking in-universe and/or out-of-universe, but still an option.

[Rrmcklin]

Is there some reason you think "kid gets left with functionally abusive parent, no strings attached" is a likely outcome?

Well, I assume that Kudzu is going to grow up with both his parents for the reasons I stated, but he can't come with Durkon, and Hilgya's not leaving him with anyone else. Ergo, he and Hilgya are probably leaving the story at the same time.

I'm not really sure what's unclear here, I'm not describing what I want to happen, just what I think is likely. Durkon himself has expressed no interest in taking Kudzu away from her. He wants to be in Kudzu's life, not for her to be out of it.

[Kish]

A possibility I've been thinking about is Hilgya dying and briefly going to Hel, only for Durkon to resurrect her. So she'd have it rubbed in her face, in the most direct and terrifying fashion possible, that she was wrong about there being a "loophole" out of the whole bargain, and her only way out of eternal damnation would be to accept help from the man whose adherence to the rules she'd held in contempt.
The thing is, Hilgya's talking about a loophole is the closest I can remember to an indication that "honorable" is significantly different from "in battle or the line of duty," and I don't think it's terribly close. If Hilgya gets killed by a vampire, she'll go to somewhere-not-Hel's-domain because she died in battle. She'd need to die of accident, disease, or old age to go to Hel, and while that could easily happen at the end of her long life--Thor-worshiping dwarves argue over who gets to sacrifice whom to save the other one from the blizzard, and Hilgya can't see any reason to do anything other than shrug "I'm good with either one of you sacrificing yourselves to save me"--it seems very unlikely to happen today.

[Rrmcklin]

Also, like, Hilgya's not wrong about how the position the dwarves have been put in by the gods being unfair and terrible, and I don't think the story would create a situation that implies her trying to fight against it is wrong.

Or that the only "right" way is Durkon's way, for that matter.

[Peelee]

Also how would Durkon know where she went?

[Pablo360]

Also how would Durkon know where she went?

Speak Wit' Dead. We've seen him use it before, even.

Not that I personally think any of this is at all likely to go down. Just, if it did go down, Durkon has Speak Wit' Dead.

I just don't think Hilgya will die at this point in the story. Durkon and Belkar defeating Greg felt like the climax, we've gotten an end-of-plotline infodump, and the remaining spawn are pretty weak so I'm guessing the rest of this storyline will just be the mop-up with few remaining complications and the complete and total derailing of Hel's plans, maybe with a single surviving vampire who escapes to imply that not everything has been settled in the Dwarven lands. I just feel like Hilgya is an important enough character that if she were going to die, she'd have done it already.

[Peelee]

Speak Wit' Dead. We've seen him use it before, even.

Not quite.

Speak with Dead

The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life

[B. Dandelion]

The thing is, Hilgya's talking about a loophole is the closest I can remember to an indication that "honorable" is significantly different from "in battle or the line of duty," and I don't think it's terribly close. If Hilgya gets killed by a vampire, she'll go to somewhere-not-Hel's-domain because she died in battle. She'd need to die of accident, disease, or old age to go to Hel, and while that could easily happen at the end of her long life--Thor-worshiping dwarves argue over who gets to sacrifice whom to save the other one from the blizzard, and Hilgya can't see any reason to do anything other than shrug "I'm good with either one of you sacrificing yourselves to save me"--it seems very unlikely to happen today.

Yeah... it'd have to be some kind of freak accident for it to happen in this book. Which might just be too excessively contrived to pull off. It was just a thought -- I liked the idea that she might go through an experience that causes her some self-reflection. If she changed just a little it might make the resolution of the whole Kudzu custody thing go more smoothly. As it is, I have no idea how it's going to shake out except that it seems crystal clear she should not be trusted with full custody of the child.


Also, like, Hilgya's not wrong about how the position the dwarves have been put in by the gods being unfair and terrible, and I don't think the story would create a situation that implies her trying to fight against it is wrong.

Or that the only "right" way is Durkon's way, for that matter.

Of course it's a terrible injustice. She's not morally wrong to rebel, but that doesn't mean she's going to be factually right about Loki's loophole. If it weren't completely unfair, the loophole might have a better chance of actually working. But Loki is the one who helped stack the deck against them in the first place. The point isn't to punish her for recognizing how unfair it is and for wanting to be her own person, it's to make her realize there really isn't an easy out and that Durkon's position has always been well-intended.


Also how would Durkon know where she went?

Depending on how she died it might be pretty easy to guess?

[Peelee]

Depending on how she died it might be pretty easy to guess?

Not if her theory is correct. Which I don't believe, but it is unknown.

[Rrmcklin]

Of course it's a terrible injustice. She's not morally wrong to rebel, but that doesn't mean she's going to be factually right about Loki's loophole. If it weren't completely unfair, the loophole might have a better chance of actually working. But Loki is the one who helped stack the deck against them in the first place. The point isn't to punish her for recognizing how unfair it is and for wanting to be her own person, it's to make her realize there really isn't an easy out and that Durkon's position has always been well-intended.


I don't know; it's not like Thor was above arguing for ridiculous loopholes to the situation. Whether she knows for certain or not her idea is true, I could imagine Loki arguing it is. Not a comment on how it would work, because we don't know how they settle things when theirs a dispute about what is or isn't honorable.

[B. Dandelion]

Not if her theory is correct. Which I don't believe, but it is unknown.

It's more about what Durkon would assume, isn't it though? I can't really see him hearing about the "loophole", then seeing her die in a freak accident, and then just resting easy.

[Peelee]

It's more about what Durkon would assume, isn't it though? I can't really see him hearing about the "loophole", then seeing her die in a freak accident, and then just resting easy.

Conversely, I can't see him heading about the "loophole," then seeing her die in a freak accident, then rubbing it in her face. Even more so when he doesn't know for sure.

[B. Dandelion]

Conversely, I can't see him heading about the "loophole," then seeing her die in a freak accident, then rub her nose in it. Even more so when he doesn't know for sure.

When I said she'd have her nose rubbed in it, I meant by the circumstances (and possibly by Hel personally), not by Durkon! Dying and going to Hel's domain would directly prove to Hilgya that she was wrong. Durkon would be her lifeline out.

If he saw her die in a freak accident, he'd probably try to raise her no matter what. If she did wind up in Valhalla she'd be free to refuse, but he wouldn't want to risk the other possibility.


I don't know; it's not like Thor was above arguing for ridiculous loopholes to the situation. Whether she knows for certain or not her idea is true, I could imagine Loki arguing it is. Not a comment on how it would work, because we don't know how they settle things when theirs a dispute about what is or isn't honorable.

Her theory might not be wrong. Loki might argue on her behalf. We don't know for sure. We might find out. Or it could be that we will never actually know whether or not the loophole could have worked.

I'm okay speculating with a presumption that it turns out to be false even though we don't know that for sure, since we can't definitively disprove it either.

[Ruck]

A possibility I've been thinking about is Hilgya dying and briefly going to Hel, only for Durkon to resurrect her. So she'd have it rubbed in her face, in the most direct and terrifying fashion possible, that she was wrong about there being a "loophole" out of the whole bargain, and her only way out of eternal damnation would be to accept help from the man whose adherence to the rules she'd held in contempt.

...Huh. I find this remarkably plausible. Hilgya's betting that "Nothing more honorable for a cleric than living your god's truth. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1113.html)" But as we already know, living's got nothing to do with the bet; and it's confirmed that the bet has "a small exception for those who die with honor. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html)"

Now, I don't know how she would die dishonorably any time soon. But I think the distinction here is important to highlight, anyway.


If he saw her die in a freak accident, he'd probably try to raise her no matter what. If she [i]did wind up in Valhalla she'd be free to refuse, but he wouldn't want to risk the other possibility.

And yeah, I think this would be the case too.

[Peelee]

If he saw her die in a freak accident, he'd probably try to raise her no matter what. If she did wind up in Valhalla she'd be free to refuse, but he wouldn't want to risk the other possibility.

I'm pretty sure she's not going to Valhalla regardless. Passing the Hel condition doesn't divert dwarves to Valhalla, it just let's them continue to a plane matching their alignment. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/OOTS0737.HTML)

[NNescio]

Wearing a baby on your chest while actively going into battle for petty revenge is a definition of "care for the baby in the best way possible" I was previously unfamiliar with.

Not a player of Dwarf Fortress I presume.

[Rrmcklin]

...Huh. I find this remarkably plausible. Hilgya's betting that "Nothing more honorable for a cleric than living your god's truth. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1113.html)" But as we already know, [I]living's got nothing to do with the bet; and it's confirmed that the bet has "a small exception for those who die with honor. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html)"

Now, I don't know how she would die dishonorably any time soon. But I think the distinction here is important to highlight, anyway.


In that case, the argument might be "A cleric both lives, and dies for their god." so no matter how or when Hilgya dies, she's good. Who knows how that would go over.


I'm pretty sure she's not going to Valhalla regardless. Passing the Hel condition doesn't divert dwarves to Valhalla, it just let's them continue to a plane matching their alignment. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/OOTS0737.HTML)

Though she seems to be assume there's a "cool" part of Vahalla different from the lame one guys like Durkon go to. I'm much more willing to dismiss that as her being wrong than her theological ideas, though.

[Verappo]

I'd be disappointed if Hilgya was reintroduced into the narrative just for a quick resurrection followed by death, let alone if her role was just to hand over a baby at the end of the story arc. Much like I didn't think Minrah's death would stick, because it's kind of a disservice to the character to just be introduced to die or for a small function, especially since the baby plot was created specifically in this book.

I hope she gets to have at least another conversation with the order where we get to explore her point of view further, about being raised in a society whose values she doesn't share, and maybe provide some last piece to Durkon's character development (something like "learn how to talk to people more convincingly before you head to convince the evil goblin to give up his life goals"). That's the only loose thread in the current arc, that I can think of.

This is about the main characters changing their minds. Vaarsuvius had to realize their flaws in Don't Split the Party, Belkar is slowly learning about introspection, Elan learned how obsession with narrative structures can be negative, Haley had the whole thing about trusting people.
I'd be surprised if the point of Durkon's arc was just "He was already awesome". As much as this book has been a celebration of his role as the anchor that keeps the order from straying, I'd say that Hilgya's presence is a reminder that he still has flaws he needs to work on (much like we saw V working on their anger issues in BRitF).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Now, I don't know how she would die dishonorably any time soon.

Stabbed in the back by a halfling because he has issues.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Stabbed in the back by a halfling because he has issues.

Grey Wolf

If being assassinated for your political actions counts as honorable, im not sure that being assassinated for your clerical actions wouldn't.

[Peelee]

If being assassinated for your political actions counts as honorable, im not sure that being assassinated for your clerical actions wouldn't.

I think there's a vast gulf between "He died for his beliefs" and "he died because he killed another guy."

[Keltest]

I think there's a vast gulf between "He died for his beliefs" and "he died because he killed another guy."

Is there? well, maybe, but that would tend to put it in the way of "he died in battle" then.

[Peelee]

Is there? well, maybe, but that would tend to put it in the way of "he died in battle" then.

I also don't believe that would be covered under "battle," but we've seen flimsier justifications in the strip.

[Keltest]

I also don't believe that would be covered under "battle," but we've seen flimsier justifications in the strip.

I mean, Durkon was covered when he got Flame Stricken while proposing. Dying with honor is clearly a fairly large umbrella.

[Peelee]

I mean, Durkon was covered when he got Flame Stricken while proposing. Dying with honor is clearly a fairly large umbrella.

Agreed. I also think that her getting shanked would probably be covered under "in battle." I just don't think it should be.

[FireJustice]

really hoping we got some good stuff from the Giant, I mean, no kids dead except with familicide. That's too few.

We got some great deaths.
Miko, Terkla, Tsukiko and Crystal (And Golem-Crystal)
one can hope miss Hilgya is tough enough to die with her son.

But I kid.

I don't ever think the Giant would left Kudzu as motherless orfan.

[KorvinStarmast]

A possibility I've been thinking about is Hilgya dying and briefly going to Hel, only for Durkon to resurrect her. We'll see how the battle with the Exarch goes.
He wants to be in Kudzu's life, not for her to be out of it. Important distinction.
Durkon's character development (something like "learn how to talk to people more convincingly before you head to convince the evil goblin to give up his life goals"). That's the only loose thread in the current arc, that I can think of. Nice. So another conversation with Durkon before book is over. I hope your guess is right.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I fail to see why so many people think that having a baby makes Hilgya death-proof. Durkon is a single parent child, he can handle being a single parent.

From the POV of storytelling, I also don’t see why Hilgya would have a plot armour. Like every other character, she has made her bed, and now she gets to lie on it. If that means she dies, she dies.

Grey Wolf

[Jay R]

I didn't pick Durkon as the next one to die when they entered the pyramid.
I didn't pick Malack as the next one to die after Durkon.
I didn't pick Nale as the next one to die after Malack.
I didn't pick Durkon as the next one to die when his resurrection started in #1148.

I'm not going to guess at the next one to die now.

[Rrmcklin]

I'd be disappointed if Hilgya was reintroduced into the narrative just for a quick resurrection followed by death, let alone if her role was just to hand over a baby at the end of the story arc. Much like I didn't think Minrah's death would stick, because it's kind of a disservice to the character to just be introduced to die or for a small function, especially since the baby plot was created specifically in this book.

I don't think she's going to die (I've already said why) but I think you and the Giant probably have a different opinion on "disservice to the character" means. For my part, I don't think I believe in "disservice to the character" because characters exist to serve the narrative, not the other way around. That being said, yeah, Hilgya probably is around for something else.



I hope she gets to have at least another conversation with the order where we get to explore her point of view further, about being raised in a society whose values she doesn't share, and maybe provide some last piece to Durkon's character development (something like "learn how to talk to people more convincingly before you head to convince the evil goblin to give up his life goals"). That's the only loose thread in the current arc, that I can think of.

I'm pretty sure everyone there already understands her point of view incredibly well.


This is about the main characters changing their minds. Vaarsuvius had to realize their flaws in Don't Split the Party, Belkar is slowly learning about introspection, Elan learned how obsession with narrative structures can be negative, Haley had the whole thing about trusting people.
I'd be surprised if the point of Durkon's arc was just "He was already awesome". As much as this book has been a celebration of his role as the anchor that keeps the order from straying, I'd say that Hilgya's presence is a reminder that he still has flaws he needs to work on (much like we saw V working on their anger issues in BRitF).

Durkon already admitted he was wrong to tell Hilgya to simply go back to what he was told was an abusive monster, so if you're looking for the story to say "Durkon wasn't right about everything and has flaws" it's already done that.

[Kish]

I think Hilgya dying, including potentially being killed by the Order, has been on the table ever since she killed Durkon.

I think it's not the current direction the story is going in, but that could change in any strip between now and the end of the comic.

[AutomatedTeller]

I see little reason for Hilgya to die unless she attacks the party and I see nothing in her story or personality that would have her do such a thing. She certainly isn't going to sacrifice herself for the party.

[Verappo]

I don't think she's going to die (I've already said why) but I think you and the Giant probably have a different opinion on "disservice to the character" means. For my part, I don't think I believe in "disservice to the character" because characters exist to serve the narrative, not the other way around. That being said, yeah, Hilgya probably is around for something else.

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't care about the inanimate character's feelings :smallbiggrin:. I meant that by bringing Hilgya just to die, that character wouldn't be a great addition to the narrative. If you can take her away without anything changing, why are you reintroducing her in the first place (except the cool "woah, she's back" factor, which granted might be enough of a reason).

The way I see it (I might be wrong) Hilgya's return provided insight on the other side of dwarven society for us, the readers. I just hope that insight will also be something that Durkon will think about in the future, whether through a conversation with Hilgya or some other character. I could see, for example, him and V having a discussion on estranged partners, and hurting them without meaning to. Or whatever, Rich Burlew can come up with something better. I just don't see her dying as the most interesting route he could take.



I'm pretty sure everyone there already understands her point of view incredibly well.

Does Durkon though? Because even after admitting he was wrong he still proposed to her, so there's still a fundamental misundertanding there, one which I hope will be clarified or expanded upon. And it's fine that he doesn't know, he was dead for half the time and only just saw her again.

[KorvinStarmast]

I see little reason for Hilgya to die unless she attacks the party and I see nothing in her story or personality that would have her do such a thing. She certainly isn't going to sacrifice herself for the party. A stray thought. She was dominated by Durkula, so I can see Exarch pulling a similar stunt, Hilgya attacks/harms party, and the counter attack kills her.

But that seems a Nale-style, overly complex way to write her out of the story. As mentioned elsewhere, might not Durkon raise her for Kudzu's sake?

[Emanick]

A stray thought. She was dominated by Durkula, so I can see Exarch pulling a similar stunt, Hilgya attacks/harms party, and the counter attack kills her.

But that seems a Nale-style, overly complex way to write her out of the story. As mentioned elsewhere, might not Durkon raise her for Kudzu's sake?

She's pretty selfish. She might be happy enough in Loki's afterlife that she'd rather stay dead in Valhalla than come back in order to be with her son. Maybe she loves Kudzu enough to come back for him... but maybe not.

[Rrmcklin]

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't care about the inanimate character's feelings :smallbiggrin:. I meant that by bringing Hilgya just to die, that character wouldn't be a great addition to the narrative. If you can take her away without anything changing, why are you reintroducing her in the first place (except the cool "woah, she's back" factor, which granted might be enough of a reason).

The way I see it (I might be wrong) Hilgya's return provided insight on the other side of dwarven society for us, the readers. I just hope that insight will also be something that Durkon will think about in the future, whether through a conversation with Hilgya or some other character. I could see, for example, him and V having a discussion on estranged partners, and hurting them without meaning to. Or whatever, Rich Burlew can come up with something better. I just don't see her dying as the most interesting route he could take.



Does Durkon though? Because even after admitting he was wrong he still proposed to her, so there's still a fundamental misundertanding there, one which I hope will be clarified or expanded upon. And it's fine that he doesn't know, he was dead for half the time and only just saw her again.

That's fair. As I've said, I expect them to come to some sort of compromise, so by necessity they both have to get a better understanding of one another.

[Fyraltari]

Well I didn't think I'd use that again:

http://rs53.pbsrc.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hilgya_zpsvgmasmec.png?w=480&h=480&fit=clip What? ... Why did you bring me back?
:durkon: I know what it's like growing up without me pa. I dinnae want me son to grow up witout his ma.
http://rs53.pbsrc.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hilgya_zpsvgmasmec.png?w=480&h=480&fit=clip I ... I don't know what to say, Durkon. I think I have misjudged you. I might need some time.
:durkon: It be okay, we have all the time in th' world ta figure it out. As a family.
:roy: *coughs*
:durkon: We have either all the time in th' world or up ta three weeks.

[Pablo360]

Well I didn't think I'd use that again:

You're right. When you put it like that, it's obviously out of character for Hilgya. I don't know why we were even considering it.

[Jack Of Rivia]

I think Hilgya should die, not for moralistic reasons, but narrative ones. Whatever Weird (LoL) opinion one may have on her morality, it's undeniably that she has a prominent character flaw, technically a"tragic'flaw" which draws conflicts and, by laws of narrative, if not addressed will drive the character to defeat and/or death (and in this setting, they usually are one and the same.)
In the pursuit of her desires, she doesn't care about hurting others, even if they are family members. First she abandons, ruins and dishonors her clan, and while she had good reasons, it comes out as a bit excessive and unhinged; then she risks the life of her child, and also tortures and alienates the biological father, just to settle a score. She is the polar opposite of Durkon: and as his character seems to be set on overcoming his tragic flaw, the narrative seems to portait her as succumbing to it.
So, my money on Sayonara Hilgya.

[martianmister]

With the last strip, this theory is getting likelier.

[CriticalFailure]

1) Hilgya seems to be a comedic rather than tragic figure and is unlikely to make a big switch.

2) Her biggest role in the narrative is as a challenge to Durkon’s goal of raising his kid well and happily with 2 parents. Given his backstory and how much he wants Kudzu to have both parents, it’s unlikely she’ll get killed unless there’s some specific narrative reason Durkon has to be forced to accept his kid growing up without one like he did. It seems much more likely he’ll instead have to navigate the social/moral intricacies of coparenting across the alignment system in order to give Kudzu a childhood with both parents rather than being forced to accept the same struggles he went through.

[Peelee]

1) Hilgya seems to be a comedic rather than tragic figure and is unlikely to make a big switch.

thog agree. nothing bad happen to funny villains.

[Snails]

Hilgya still sticks around with the order, although her revenge on Durkon seems to be through.
Why? Does she have a plan to still inflict more harm on Durkon? Make him suffer justice (in her own, twisted way of doing justice)?

I think so.

To answer the question posed in the title, I say: Absolutely Yes.

In a meta sense, Hilgya is hanging around to face the test every character has been facing for the last couple books: Evolve or Die.

We have learned enough about Hilgya to see she is capable of learning and growing, in that she indicated a more nuanced vision of her ex. Hilgya will face a test of whether she can grow beyond her old habits and limitations. Failure is certain death, even if Hilgya does not realize as much. The Giant has just conveniently provided reassurance to the Readers that Hilgya dying will not mean some terrible fate for Kudzu. The larger tale can sail onwards with or without Hilgya breathing.

[Aveline]

thog agree. nothing bad happen to funny villains.

For what it's worth, my takeaway from the coliseum scene was not "Thog died" but "Roy is very tactical and aware of his priorities." Thog's possible death is only incidental.

Maybe this says more about me than the text, but it wasn't until Thog's preface in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished that I even wondered if he had died in the rubble.

[Heksefatter]

I think that Hilgya is a fair candidate for the next person to die in the comic, because she is proximate, not a member of the order, and it is not clear that she serves a further narrative purpose (Kudzu also fills these same criteria, but I don't think the Giant would kill a baby character without fanfare).

I agree with this. Also, I could see it making sense in the narrative that Durkon gets a child to care for.

Obviously, I am not at all certain, but I will still put down 20 qvumzels on her dying.

[Keltest]

I agree with this. Also, I could see it making sense in the narrative that Durkon gets a child to care for.

Obviously, I am not at all certain, but I will still put down 20 qvumzels on her dying.

At this point, "Sigdi keeps her under metaphorical lock and key while Durkon is off saving the world" is looking more likely to me. Which is... still not especially satisfying, frankly, but its better than just not addressing her being completely awful for Kudzu (and in general).

[Snails]

At this point, "Sigdi keeps her under metaphorical lock and key while Durkon is off saving the world" is looking more likely to me. Which is... still not especially satisfying, frankly, but its better than just not addressing her being completely awful for Kudzu (and in general).

I am quite certain that we are not going to float forward without a character test for Hilgya. Hilgya will prove herself either more worthy or less worthy as a mother, and enjoy/suffer personal consequences for choice.. So it will surely be better than "not especially satisfying", although how much and in what manner is yet to be seen.

Evolve or Die.

[Caractacus]

Could Minrah step in as a 'surrogate' mother if Hilgya reaches her expiry date?

[Rrmcklin]

Could Minrah step in as a 'surrogate' mother if Hilgya reaches her expiry date?

Theoretically? Sure. Actually? There would be no reason for such a thing to happen.

[Kish]

I don't think "there's this young female dwarf, who said she was uncertain of whether she wanted children herself...she can take the role of mother to the child of two people she met today!" is something Rich is going to do.

If we had not just encountered Sigdi saying outright that she would take care of Kudzu if Hilgya died, I would still not think shoving him off on Minrah was something Rich was going to do.

[Fyraltari]

Could Minrah step in as a 'surrogate' mother if Hilgya reaches her expiry date?

She doesn't know wether she wants kids and has no relation to the Thundershields meanwhile the baby's grandmother is right there, so I'm going to say no. Also "expiry date", really?