GMing a more rogue centric game.

[Mai]

So I was watching a video on youtube about how to run the thieves can't and how to use it. I got some inspiration from it, and find myself wanting to do a game with a more roguish flair.

I am new to GMing, and could use some advise. I've only GMed with basic preset adventures. Slightly altered mines or phandelver. But for this I want the start at least to be more domestic. Rather than world spanning super adventurers, I want to start this as city wide. Rogue based skills being essentials. Not everyone needs to be a rogue, but having skills like lockpicking, or knowing the thieves cant are needed by the party. Stealth is critical.

They need not be evil home intruders, perhaps investigators of a sort. But I definitely want an adventure where the party will be trying to sneak into the homes of others. Perhaps to gather evidence against a crime Lord. Imagine it! This is still d&d. You could probably pay a wizard to keep an alarm spell going as home security, for example.

I'm just looking for some suggestions on how to do this game. I don't think there are any modules for this type of adventure.

How would this sort of game work?

1) Any advice on how to work this kind of game? Are there any modules that fit this feel?

2) Any ideas on how to expand it later on? After the first big plot? Players I have in mind did suggest it building into an Indiana Jones sort of adventure. Archaeology with heavy rogueish elements, investigations, and so on.

3) Does anyone have solid ideas how magic would be adapted into a city environment? Things like alarm spells as home security as mentioned this like that.

4) I want to keep the starting level low. 1 or 2. 3 at most. I was thinking 2 would allow a base multiclassing if someone wanted just 1 level of rogue for example.

[Vogie]

An idea I've had in this type of game is by disallowing all of your players to choose rogue as a class... because they're all Rogues already.

The idea was originally a "Leverage" or similar style game, at level 1, all of the players already have 3 levels of rogue of their chosen archetype. The players choose their "actual" class, on top of their roguish abilities. As the players level up their actual class, whenever they hit an ASI (other than the extra ones fighters get), they get the next rogue feature from their roguish archetype.

This gives them all of the feel of being rogues, without the issues or lost levels they'd have by dipping rogues.



2) Any ideas on how to expand it later on? After the first big plot? Players I have in mind did suggest it building into an Indiana Jones sort of adventure. Archaeology with heavy rogueish elements, investigations, and so on.
You could also have a layered caper, where the party steals the object, then as they're escaping, it is stolen from them. When they hunt down those people, a third party has taken it, and the chase is on again.


3) Does anyone have solid ideas how magic would be adapted into a city environment? Things like alarm spells as home security as mentioned this like that.
It'd be just like spells in any other environment. In Waterdeep, for example, magic users and weapons are common in the streets... but there are strict rules on what can be used where and when, and a magistrate of wizards to reinforce it. No problem with using Unseen servant to clean the house, but you'll get arrested or killed if you start slinging fire in the streets

[HappyDaze]

The 2d20 Conan game has a Supplement Conan the Thief that gives a lot of great advice on doing a rogue-centered campaign. That said, I think I'd vastly prefer such a game in the old school Hyborian sword & sorcery setting than in the modern heroic fantasy of D&D.

[Man_Over_Game]

Implement lots of traps.
Have repercussions due to being arrested/being burned/being outcast rather than just straight up death. Maybe have a separate life total, something like Subtlety that goes down as you get caught, or can go up over time, and it hitting 0 means that someone is willing to get you gone or dead.
I'd really recommend looking into my Stealth hombrew rules (in my signature). It rewards long-term stealth, assassinating combatants before they can alert anyone, moving within a facility without being caught, and penalizing Stealth users who do get caught from Hiding again.
Consider having Challenges, where an objective has a HP value and requires skill checks to be made against it rather than attacks. When it hits 0, the players succeed, and they can contribute in different ways (The vault is surrounded by a bunch of guards and traps (HP 200). Bruce manages to cause a commotion and distracts several guards (Rolls Intimidation with Advantage, subtracts his roll from the Challenge HP) while Johnny sneaks past.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Not sure of any 3rd party stealth modules published for 5e. You can probably find some homebrew one's or older ones online that are easily enough adaptable.

1) One piece of advice I'd give is to make sure you have your thoughts on stealth all in line ahead of time. It would be really frustrating if I as a player never knew how you'd rule on stealth in any given situation. There are lots of ways to go about this, but the biggest thing here is consistency. I'd also recommend being a bit more generous to the party's stealth than in a normal campaign, just since you want to give the incentive to play that way.

One way to encourage stealth and intrigue is to set up somewhat of a dystopian society. It doesn't need to be full on 1984 or Brave New World to do the trick. But having a powerful organization that the players can't take on directly would force them to be more tactical and subversive. I played in a modern game where we were normal people and a bunch of supervillains had taken over every major city. Anyone with powers turned evil pretty quickly and we couldn't fight them straight up almost ever. It was hard because you have to be good at lying to them, staying under their radar, recon, planning, finding their weaknesses, etc. So you could put some force, entity, or character in their way that they have to subvert or dethrone without going head up with them.

2) The Indiana Jones idea is another good one. Maybe start local, but whatever the large antagonistic force is in the beginning turns out to be tied to something bigger around the world or the country. Indi vs the Nazis is a classic example of something like what I wrote above without going into the dystopian side of things if that's not your jam. He's only with man with a few friends, but he beats them with his knowledge, cunning, and often good luck.

3) Magic in a city could be as big or as little a deal as you want it to be. The Alarm thing works. You can look into Silverymoon from Forgotten Realms. It's kind of like the eclectic, magical New York City near the Sword Coast. It's known for being wild and crazy with all sorts of magic, but it's a very accepting place at the same time (not super hostile or dangerous). Alternatively you could make magic something where only the people in the town watch are allowed to do it so they can enforce laws and keep crime down. That would once again push your party to rely on their cunning rather than spells all the time. Maybe the Wizard can get away with magic, but just not in front of most people. Maybe magic users are required to sign up for service in the town watch for a few years once they come of age. That way the city can keep tabs on them. In Waterdeep magic users are supposed to register with the guild so they can be called on in times of great need. There's all sorts of possibilities depending on who you want to have access to magic and how much.

[Keravath]

Implement lots of traps.
Have repercussions due to being arrested/being burned/being outcast rather than just straight up death. Maybe have a separate life total, something like Subtlety that goes down as you get caught, or can go up over time, and it hitting 0 means that someone is willing to get you gone or dead.
I'd really recommend looking into my Stealth hombrew rules (in my signature). It rewards long-term stealth, assassinating combatants before they can alert anyone, moving within a facility without being caught, and penalizing Stealth users who do get caught from Hiding again.
Consider having Challenges, where an objective has a HP value and requires skill checks to be made against it rather than attacks. When it hits 0, the players succeed, and they can contribute in different ways (The vault is surrounded by a bunch of guards and traps (HP 200). Bruce manages to cause a commotion and distracts several guards (Rolls Intimidation with Advantage, subtracts his roll from the Challenge HP) while Johnny sneaks past.


I just wanted to comment on "implement lots of traps".

In general, I find this not such a good idea. Decent sneaky traps at specific points with a specific purpose can be a fun challenge. Especially if they can involve some sort of puzzle. However, in most circumstances they can just bog down play. In addition, many characters but especially rogues, can be built to more or less trivialize traps ... and you don't want to make traps impossible for regular folks just because you have a character in the party that can deal with them effectively.

For example, a rogue with the observant feat and expertise in perception can start off at level 1 with a passive perception of 20 if their wisdom is 16. This means that the character will not miss many traps or secret doors that can be detected with perception. If you set the DC so high that this character has to roll for it then it will be virtually impossible for anyone else to find and even this character won't have as high a chance since observant only increases passive perception and investigation.

The rogue can also take expertise in thieves tools, investigation and stealth. This will make the character very effective at finding and disabling almost anything that is hidden or trapped. Expertise in the four skills is available at 6th level. In addition, reliable talent comes online at 11th level ... which means you need trap DCs in the high 20s to prevent this rogue from successfully removing them (With 20 dex and expertise in thieves tools the skill is +13 which is an automatic success at any DC of 23 or less).

So, by all means sprinkle in a few traps ... but I'd suggest not having too many or making them too significant.

[Crucius]

I just wanted to comment on "implement lots of traps".

In general, I find this not such a good idea. Decent sneaky traps at specific points with a specific purpose can be a fun challenge. Especially if they can involve some sort of puzzle. However, in most circumstances they can just bog down play.

I agree with not overdoing traps. If you get into a habit of putting traps everywhere, your players will snail through buildings, probing every tile and floorboard for traps. It gives everything a sense of danger, and not the fun kind, the arduous kind, slowing each session down drastically. If you want a more epic and snappy flair to your sessions, traps are not the way to go.

My advice to you, as the DM, would be to manage each player's skill niche a bit. If every player gets proficiency in thieves' tools for example but one gets expertise in it, the other proficiencies are kinda wasted and that won't feel good to the players. It feels good to have a niche, especially inside a team of thieving experts. For example encourage one to be the art specialist with a proficiency in painters supplies and the history skill, recognizing valuable art worth pinching, while another has jeweler's tools and arcana proficiency for analyzing precious trinkets on the necks of wealthy people. Feels much nicer than to have everyone have the same skill sets. Let the players discuss amongst themselves to find out what everyone likes to play, so others can apply themselves to a different skill set.

[Mai]

I really appreciate the input! It's been really helpful, thank you all.

[CTurbo]

I like the idea of the whole party getting 2 or 3 Rogue levels for free and then not allowing any character to be an actual Rogue.

I've done similar things before and it's always been fun.

[opaopajr]

Practice your Exploration and Social Pillars! :smallcool:

It seems redundant, but just as Combat pillar is typically practiced we get familiarity, and sometimes we even develop "poorly translatable" pillar habits.

One big factor is practice the art of description, and if you use minis keep their use in Player-facing Perspective. You need to be explicit and encourage PCs to ask clarifying questions Out-of-Character (OOC). And you need to pull minis off the table when the PCs would not normally see them, letting them enjoy the fun of Hide & Seek from the other side.

Also complicate the process of Exploration conflicts -- make them granular and played out, just like in combat rounds, so there is tension in the flux between choices. This means Perception is not going to be X-Ray vision inside of dresser drawers; it's surface looking. And even if you do open the drawer and look at its surface with Perception, it is Investigation that will move stuff around or use deductive reasoning for things that are weird. And in such an environment Sleight of Hand becomes an amazing tool -- like Exploration's version of sneak for objects, like a form of lying.

Similarly do so with using Persuade, Insight, & Intimidate during Social Pillar. Don't just let players throw dice at 'NPCS' and 'solve them', foster the dialogue back and forth, with relevant offers and counter-offers, approaches having consequences, etc. You ask the players what are they doing just like you would a journalist: who, what, when, where, why, how, (especially 'how',).

This will help complicate these game pillars to feel as vibrant as combat. Practice and you may find players had a thirst for these elements all along but had no idea how to use them. Best of luck! :smallsmile:

[Crucius]

1) Any advice on how to work this kind of game? Are there any modules that fit this feel?

2) Any ideas on how to expand it later on? After the first big plot? Players I have in mind did suggest it building into an Indiana Jones sort of adventure. Archaeology with heavy rogueish elements, investigations, and so on.

3) Does anyone have solid ideas how magic would be adapted into a city environment? Things like alarm spells as home security as mentioned this like that.

4) I want to keep the starting level low. 1 or 2. 3 at most. I was thinking 2 would allow a base multiclassing if someone wanted just 1 level of rogue for example.

1) I've heard curse of Strahd does a good job at intrigue, but that doesn't make it a heist or anything. Dragon heist sounds like the thing, but I don't know enough about that one, so if someone could vouch for that (or not) that would help.

2) A great story has a great villain that mirrors the party. So in this case that could probably either be a wealthy evil person that is the ultimate heist, or another rogue that upstages the party from time to time by beating them to the treasure. Introduce them early and make them recurring, that way you can glue together any sub-plots you want to tell. Or every villain could be part of a secret underground society that runs the city, but that is something that is clearly conveyed only after the third villain has been beaten for example. Having the players go to a new neighborhood after a major plot thread is wrapped up is a good way to give a visual distinction and a sense of progression through the city.

3) There is this article (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA_Magic_Items_of_Eberron.pdf) that describes more casual magic (items) that could inspire you. Just look around you and think of things that make your life easier. It stands to reason that in a city, spells or items holding spells are a lucrative commodity if it creates comfort for the citizens. A stone slab that can Produce Flame as a stove, glass baubles with the Light spell as lamps, an animated broom for the upper class citizens to clean their house. Modern technology is just like magic in that regard. It all depends on how high- or low-magic your setting is.

4) Level 1 is best for squeaky new players but more experienced players will find it very boring. Level 2 allows for multiclass yes, no comment really. Level 3 is where all classes have their subclasses (ofc some at 1 and 2 already, but at this level everyone has it) which leads to more differentiation, so better profiling of characters and probably better roleplay as well.

[Mai]

Thanks! This has all been really valuable! It will be discord based so no miniatures, but that was all helpful regardless! I am grateful for the information.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you can get your hands on "The City State of the Invincible Overlord" (I hope there is a 5e version of that, it's an iconic published adventure/setting from Judges Guild) it is the perfect setting for a thieve centric game. Rogue Centric Game.

We ran all thief / rogue sessions in that setting back in the late 70's. It was perfect. The whole objective of the campaign was to survive to a high enough level to qualify for the thieves guild in the big city. 4th was the target of my favorite run. the DM"s entire job was to get us leads to various things we would try to steal, and in one case take an extortionist down a peg, and our job was to be as clever as possible and not die. If we weren't setting an ambush, we were not going to succeed. It was the ultimate "live by your wits" setting. Part of that was in learning who to bribe. :smallwink:

Great fun.

[Son of A Lich!]

y'know... I've been thinking about having a game where I allow all the player characters and the NPCs with character levels to Gestalt rogue.

Like, everyone gets the extra skill, Sneak attack, the reliable talent (I think I might eliminate the Evasion and you would have to rely on other classes for that. Just so Reflex save spells aren't completely nullified), and so forth.

I think this might make the game much more tactical and versatile. I forget where I read it first, but there was a blog post about how Rogues (er, "Thieves", back in 1e) were the worst class for the impact they've made on the game by limiting other mundane characters. If the barbarian can find traps as well as the rogue, what's the point of rolling a rogue? Why can't Fighters be as good at charming the barmaid into a little bit of extra info? Why don't rangers do extra damage when they are beside their friends?

but aside from that...

I would love to play a rogue game that is very politically heavy. War of the Bones kind of situations, where who has what and how are they protecting it from outsiders is more important then the boss monster.

I think it'd be really cool to have a navy seal style game where the players are given the mission parameters ahead of time and have to make a plan to infiltrate and execute the mission unseen. I never did get that game off the ground, but it's been in my head since... god, when did Saving Private Ryan come out? Early 2000's?

[Mai]

What skill would you use for deciphering codes? I see no skills for that. The party will likely encounter things like atbash and vigenere ciphers, and there is no skill that reads as being good for that.




I think it'd be really cool to have a navy seal style game where the players are given the mission parameters ahead of time and have to make a plan to infiltrate and execute the mission unseen. I never did get that game off the ground, but it's been in my head since... god, when did Saving Private Ryan come out? Early 2000's?

That's the type of game I want to make. As I got input from my 2 players (I will need 1 or 2 more) it evolved into this sort of A team type game. I'll have them be a part of LaCroix Investigations. (My fantasy version of something link the pinkertons.) investigating criminal syndicates and whatnot.

[JoeJ]

What skill would you use for deciphering codes? I see no skills for that. The party will likely encounter things like atbash and vigenere ciphers, and there is no skill that reads as being good for thst.

That would be an intelligence check, but in most cases I would not suggest using a die roll to resolve that. If the information protected by the cypher is crucial to the adventure, you don't want to risk a failed die roll resulting in no clear way forward. Instead, I'd make the PCs do something to get the cypher key; talk to a contact, break into somewhere and steal it, blackmail/threaten a bad guy, or really anything that seems fun and doesn't have a single die roll point of failure.

[Mai]

Well I would have compensated for that, but I agree strongly. Your way is better.

[djreynolds]

Reservoir Dogs

Watch the movie.

My idea is have them previously committed a heist, and someone in the party has the diamonds.

Its great, lots of social skill usage and such

Maybe combat

[Son of A Lich!]

That's the type of game I want to make. As I got input from my 2 players (I will need 1 or 2 more) it evolved into this sort of A team type game. I'll have them be a part of LaCroix Investigations. (My fantasy version of something link the pinkertons.) investigating criminal syndicates and whatnot.

I'd recommend a take down system for low level thugs, sticking to a stealth system that works for you and the party, and a wide variety of the "There has to be some way to use this" Jimmy-style magic items. Don't set up the way to win the scenario, just give them tools to do the job and let them know 90%+ of what they are going to face.

I'll give you an example;

A Dwarven keep is mass producing Iron Golems. Targets on the list include the head mage, the warlord who plans on using the Golems for warfare, and a half-elf sorcerer who is supplying them with the manual of the Iron Golem.

The players get a floor layout of the Keep, including the foundry where the Iron Golems are being produced and where the guards are posted.

The players know the Prototype proof-of-Concept golem is a little haywire, but serviceable.

They do not have Dogs keeping watch, but at least one hound is on the premise (due to surveying the keep, a dog kennel is next to the Keep's stables).

The players know that there is some disagreement between the keep's master and the warlord over whether or not this is "Keeping with the spirit" of the Dwarven King's orders. This is public knowledge between the guard and the servants working the Keep.

The players have a week to A)Kill the Targets, B) retrieve the manual, C) cut off communication between the keep and the kingdom, D) Figure out how to control the prototype, E) remove the Prototype from the keeps grounds so it can't be reverse engineered / Destroy the prototype so it can't be repaired back to full.

Successfully complete all of the above and the mission is a success. Failure is not accepted.

Then, you can sprinkle in secondary objectives. retrieve adamantite ore ingots, release earth elementals, frame the warring hobgoblin nation as the perpetrators, kidnap the keep's master so he can be mind wiped, etc.

These aren't important for the success of the mission, but a brownie points that make 'Da Boss happy and earn them extra privileges for future missions.

[Zaltman]

Cities are living breathing complex things. What do they look like, smell like, what shape are they in, how is the lighting? What are the street gangs and beggars like? How do the street gangs enforce their territory and what are their boundaries of influence? What is the experience of walking the streets in different neighborhoods at different times of day? How do bystanders react to a fight or an emergency in the street? How do guards patrol/react and can they be bribed? On a side note, streets are a great place to have innocents stumble into a combat area to test your PCs (will they save the mother crossing the street with the baby stroller from the runaway wagon?)

Who can your PCs build long term relationships with to help them (the kabob vendor that is always in the know) and who are their rivals (what would Robin Hood be without Sir Guy of Gisbourne )?

You have to have very clear idea (which can change by neighborhood) of what is considered legal and what will get people in trouble with the law or gangs. Basically having an idea of the consequence of likely actions ahead of time. This should include a clear expectation of the reaction to arms an armor and what the baseline is for "acceptable/normal". Is it acceptable to walk around in plate and a two handed sword or is that only for the city watch?

Don’t forget that cities make for great multi-level tactical combat. Archers on the roofs, ambushes in alleys and anybody just walking by can be a potential enemy or ally.

For an old school resource, track down some of the 1e lankhmar city of thieves modules. They have great background, small heists to pull off and a big, but not too big, city map complete with a sewer system.

[Vogie]

I was listening to a podcast about this the other day (I believe Total Party Thrill) and they mentioned an interesting mechanic that you might be able to use.

In relation to an Ocean's-11-style Heist campaign, each player was giving a single poker chip. At any point during the heist, that PC could turn in their chip to freeze "real time", and create a flashback scene to explain how that PC (or the party as a whole) had preemptively gotten the item that solved the problem that is in front of them in real time.