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psychoticbarber
2007-09-24, 12:52 PM
Hey Folks,

I'm looking at getting the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, but I want to hear what you all think about it.

I don't want to see "furgoten relms is teh awesome!!1!one!" or "stfu, forgottten realsm suxx0rz, u r dum!"

I actually want to see what you think about the setting, what you like about it, what you don't like about, and why you feel that way.

Thanks!

The Professor
2007-09-24, 01:00 PM
My group plays in it all the time these days. One of it's greatest strengths (and its greatest weakness) is how utterly complete the whole thing is. There's a ton of history and stuff to it, but sometimes it feels like there's no room for a DM to throw a few of their own things in.

Personally, I like the world itself, the ethnicities of the humans, the organizations etc... I especially love the history for it.

Something I hate about it? Elminster. I've recently begun picking up some other books (Lost Empires of Faerun, the Spellgard Lich Lady's obsession in undeath was Elminster? WTF? She was around since Netheril, what was her obsession 'till then? GAH!!) and especially some of the second edition ones ('cause they're fluffy!), and the Elminster love is killing me. I could care less about some geezer in Shadowdale who sleeps with goddesses on a casual basis. I really, really could.

Ahem. Anyhow, the setting also favors a high magic feel to a great amount. I like that sorta thing, but other people prefer less magic, more technology, like Eberron.

psychoticbarber
2007-09-24, 01:05 PM
Nice Avatar, Professor, by the way.

I read an interesting thing about crucifying Elminster (http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=473#Item_17), and if I'm going to play in Forgotten Realms with people who know the setting, I'll be doing something like that.

LCR
2007-09-24, 01:05 PM
I think one of the drawbacks is its own complicated history and popularity.

DM: "A tatooed man approaches you ..."
Players: "Bloody hell, Red Wizards! Run!"

There's too much metagaming involved.

JoshuaZ
2007-09-24, 01:07 PM
Hey Folks,

I'm looking at getting the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, but I want to hear what you all think about it.

I don't want to see "furgoten relms is teh awesome!!1!one!" or "stfu, forgottten realsm suxx0rz, u r dum!"

I actually want to see what you think about the setting, what you like about it, what you don't like about, and why you feel that way.

Thanks!

One common objection to FR is the prevalence of high level npcs and magic in general. Someone I know once remarked that "In the Realms, even the barmaids are epic spell casters." While this is an exaggeration, it is an understandable response. The abundance of high level NPCs make PCs feel either like they are insignificant or make the setting feel unrealistic (for example, why should Elminister ask some PCs to go kill some ancient black dragon, when he can teleport without error to the dragon, disintegrate it and teleport back in 3 rounds?).

Saph
2007-09-24, 01:16 PM
Probably the best thing about FR (from a GM's point of view, anyway) is that it's huge. Huge huge. You could play a new campaign in FR every year, and you'd still never get to see everything in the game world. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has only simple descriptions of all the areas, and it's still the size of an atlas. The term 'gameworld' gets thrown around a lot, but FR really is the size of a world, and that's not counting the Underdark, the other planets, and other planes.

This means that running into groups like Elminister or the Red Wizards really isn't a big deal, because the setting is so enormous that there's no reason to include them if you don't want to. There are least a dozen major continent-wide 'villain' groups, and countless minor ones.

When I started up a FR campaign I decided I didn't want to include any of the well-known NPCs, so I took a glance through the FRCS and set the campaign in the capital of Tethyr, Darromar. Even though all my players had played games in FR before, none of them knew anything about it - even though there was a history and cast of characters in the game canon. That's how big the setting is.

- Saph

Kurald Galain
2007-09-24, 01:57 PM
There was something good, but I forgot what it was...

:smalltongue:

PlatinumJester
2007-09-24, 02:22 PM
Play Eberron instead. I've always felt that it is much more original and unique than Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms but lets not get into this argument.

The best thing about FR is that it does have some (limited) airships. I think it has the Underdark as well which is good because you can never kill to many drow.

Personally I think there is a good reaon why Forgotten Realms is Forgotten.

BardicDuelist
2007-09-24, 02:36 PM
Everything Saph said.

Morty
2007-09-24, 02:36 PM
The best thing about FR is that it does have some (limited) airships. I think it has the Underdark as well which is good because you can never kill to many drow.


So you rate the setting by number of airships in it?:smallconfused:
I don't know much about FR, but I personally don't understand why people are complaining about too many epic level NPCs. Sure, maybe FR goes too far, but I don't think it's bad thing all in itself. If you have many powerful NPCs, then no matter how big and powerful players are, there will be someone to smack them down if they start to go on killing sprees. If you have low level NPCs, players after certain level start to be too powerful compared to rest of the world.
I have a sentiment for FR, but that comes mainly from playing Baldur's Gate games, as I've never read any books about it, save from one quite mediocere novel book.

Oeryn
2007-09-24, 02:38 PM
There's a ton of history and stuff to it, but sometimes it feels like there's no room for a DM to throw a few of their own things in.

I think one of the drawbacks is its own complicated history and popularity.

DM: "A tatooed man approaches you ..."
Players: "Bloody hell, Red Wizards! Run!"

There's too much metagaming involved.

Those are the two main reasons I don't like it. I'm a big student of history, and I love to draw that into the campaign, but with an established setting like FR, it's almost impossible. Everything's been done.

The obvious upside is that everything's also been statted out, and playtested, and the whole bit. You know what you're getting. (Unfortunately, sometimes the players know better than you do, which can also be annoying). It's not a bad place to run a game, if it meets the criteria of what you're lookin' for.

But if you wanna "tweak a few things" to make it fit your campaign idea, you're screwed. It's all so interconnected that you have to adjust damn near everything, and you'll end up spending more time doing that than any actual playing.

And you're probably gonna hear a lot of "Nuh-UH, that's not how it is in the Realms!"

Fax Celestis
2007-09-24, 02:43 PM
And you're probably gonna hear a lot of "Nuh-UH, that's not how it is in the Realms!"

The correct answer is, "That's how it is in my Realms."

Kyeudo
2007-09-24, 02:44 PM
Forgotten Realms just doesn't stand up to the quality of Eberron. I've played/read both, and Eberron lays out all the important bits, but leaves plenty of mystery to be filled in by the DM. Also, while Eberron's NPCs have a higher average level, its in the 5-10 level range, rather than the 15-25 range.

In Forgotten Realms, if you pick a fight with a random NPC on the street, your just as likely to fight a commoner as an epic wizard in disguise who will blow you and the entire city up.

In Eberron, your likely to get an on CR fight out of a random NPC.

Also, Eberron supports grey area alignment, and has dieties that make sense, instead of shoe-horn alignment and "There are hundreds of gods and they all do stuff and you need a gods backing to do magic, even arcane magic"

Is it obvious I don't like Forgotten Realms?

psychoticbarber
2007-09-24, 02:44 PM
And you're probably gonna hear a lot of "Nuh-UH, that's not how it is in the Realms!"

Heh. I don't have enough experienced players to worry too much about that, and I'm proud of my cajones to say "That's very interesting, but the Realms are different now."

See the crucifying Elminster comment, if you didn't see it before :smallbiggrin:.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-09-24, 02:47 PM
One of the advantages of the system is that it's well known enough that many players can jump into it without having to find out a lot about its background and history. Sometimes, even the DM can run a game knowing a little about the game (like I did). It's diverse enough that you can create just about whatever flavor you like there.

Saph
2007-09-24, 02:48 PM
Those are the two main reasons I don't like it. I'm a big student of history, and I love to draw that into the campaign, but with an established setting like FR, it's almost impossible. Everything's been done.

I don't really get this. When I was DMing my FR campaign, I made up history and extra stuff all the time. What's stopping you?


And you're probably gonna hear a lot of "Nuh-UH, that's not how it is in the Realms!"

Well, the whole point of using a public campaign setting is so that you don't have to explain all of it to your players, so you do have to take established canon into account. But there's nothing stopping you from coming up with new stuff.

Another point: The 'power peak' in FR is a lot higher than in Eberron. The top-level NPCs are a hell of a lot more powerful than the Eberron ones, meaning that you can have a highish level character without being the champion of the world, which on the whole I like. My FR wizard's 11th level, which in FR means I'm powerful and possibly famous, but there are still plenty of others around who are a lot more powerful than me.

- Saph

Ralfarius
2007-09-24, 02:50 PM
I think the whole 'Faerun has a lot of big dogs and that's bad' complaint is a bit of a fallacy. The fact of the matter is, the impressive number of high-powered individuals and organizations doesn't really do more than add flavour to the world. Players never have to encounter any of them because, like Saph said, you can run a campaign anywhere.

The Sword Coast is one of the most popular areas for fiction and video games, but there's so much more out there. You could poke your finger down on any part of that map and make an entire campaign in the general area without ever going near the more well-known parts. And meta-game knowledge (i.e. "crap, run from that tattooed guy who's obviously a red wizard") is only a problem if your players have difficulty playing their characters with appropriate amounts of knowledge.

I'm a big fan of the Forgotten Realms setting. It's just so full and rich, and my group can pick any sort of setting they'd like, and build a campaign around it. Running a game in the jungles of Chult are so different from Rashemon or what have you.

Granted, there's nothing wrong with DMs who prefer to have more direct input on the history and development of their campaign world. My personal preference is to work within a setting with history, and you don't get much more history than in Forgotten Realms.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-09-24, 02:57 PM
FR -does- have a lot of Big Dogs, but they can't do everything. I'm running a nice little espionage campaign in Waterdeep right now. Yes, Waterdeep has people like Blackstaff and a couple others around there. But should that mean the players won't have a chance to do anything? Hardly!

It's no fun to be questing, only to have the goal achieved only because someone four times your level happened by. There's enough intrigue in one city that even a mighty mage and his minions can't know all that's going on. Moreover, every powerful NPC will have priorities as well. Some will perceive one threat as lesser to another. Pulling resources away from the greater to deal with the lesser will weaken one's ability to deal with the former. So that's where the adventurers come in. They get to do what other people don't have time to and in the end, become big dogs themselves.

Before this campaign, I ran another in the same setting. We started small, the characters dealt with local problems and minor evils. As they progressed, so did their challenges, and so equally did their fame. Towards the end, people were coming to them because in that area, the players were known as the problem-solvers of that region.

PlatinumJester
2007-09-24, 03:09 PM
So you rate the setting by number of airships in it?:smallconfused:
I don't know much about FR, but I personally don't understand why people are complaining about too many epic level NPCs. Sure, maybe FR goes too far, but I don't think it's bad thing all in itself. If you have many powerful NPCs, then no matter how big and powerful players are, there will be someone to smack them down if they start to go on killing sprees. If you have low level NPCs, players after certain level start to be too powerful compared to rest of the world.
I have a sentiment for FR, but that comes mainly from playing Baldur's Gate games, as I've never read any books about it, save from one quite mediocere novel book.

No it's just that air ships are fun.

Morty
2007-09-24, 03:12 PM
No it's just that air ships are fun.

That I understand, it just seemed strange to point them as setting's biggest advantage. Well, whatever suits your taste. I'm not too fond of flying ships, myself.

horseboy
2007-09-24, 03:33 PM
Eberron lays out all the important bits, but leaves plenty of mystery to be filled in by the DM. Also, while Eberron's NPCs have a higher average level, its in the 5-10 level range, rather than the 15-25 range.

In Forgotten Realms, if you pick a fight with a random NPC on the street, your just as likely to fight a commoner as an epic wizard in disguise who will blow you and the entire city up.

That's because FR has been so popular for so long. IF Eberron survives for another 10-15 years and maintains/increases in popularity, it'll be just as cluttered as FR.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 03:35 PM
I personally don't like it, because it tends to take elements I like to see in a setting... and do the *complete opposite.*

A few examples:

1) The setting advances the storyline based on the actions of the NPCs. Basically, it's their world, you're just hanging out in it. What do I prefer? A set date that doesn't advance (Eberron does this, and it even specifically says that "the novels are never canon")

2) Many NPCs are arbitrarily powerful for *no good reason.* Seriously, it breaks my suspension of disbelief when Random King Steve The Second is a 20th level wizard and has the power to do... just about everything, but that doesn't reflect on the actual setting in any way. What do I prefer? When people are very powerful, they have a reason, and they have affected the setting in some way to represent it (for example, take, say, the Daughters of Sora Kell, the Daelkyr, and the hgiher level Inspired in Eberron).

3) Following that NPCs are powerful for no good reason, high or even epic levels aren't actually epic. Sure, you can stop time and all that, but so can everyone else (even if they choose not to do so for some reason). Sure, you're 15th level, but there are 15th level guards in that city for some reason too. What do I prefer? PCs are movers and shakers at high level, and they have to go save the world because they're the only ones who *can.*

4) Religions. Alignment. Stereotypes. Ugh. Gods actually are more like "powerful people you choose to throw your allegiance with" rather than actual faiths involving all the depth of real world religions and sects. Evil tends to be Evil for Evil's sake, rather than something more believable and interesting. What do I prefer? Faith-based religion, a more believable take on alignment, and some depth.

5) It's their story, not yours. Like one person said before, he liked that it was "all detailed out." But this also means that you don't have room to move around yourself. By contrast, I prefer something like Eberron, where a great deal of the setting as far as any important plots go is intentionally left open to give the DM tools to create his OWN plot, while the setting itself is mostly a framework for DMs to work in.

6) More of "it's their story, not yours" and "the NPCs are more important than the PCs." The writers of FR write in characters from campaigns they've run, and then make them a big deal. I prefer that the setting allows the PCs to shine, as opposed to forcing the DM to preface every adventure with "Well Elminster, Drizz't, and thirty other powerful good guys are too busy to do anything today because XYZ, and so you have to save the world instead!"

...Just a few examples (I coulld go on a good deal). Basically, FR takes a lot of the elements I find appealing about some settings, and reverses them to the bad extreme.

Armoury99
2007-09-24, 04:11 PM
Everything OneWingedAngel said, especially the bit about the gods and writers screwing it up.

In my experience at least, things are also far too black and white in the Realms. I hate things simplified to the stage of "Zhentarim bad - Harper good." Since we're supposed to be talking about pro's of Faerun however.... if I try really hard, I can imagine that simplicity and the detailed history of the setting being easy for new players to get into (also bare in mind that there have been many literary sins over the years that FR is now stuck making the best of...)

The basic book (3e) isn't too bad though. Just stick with that and develop the rest as you want. The only danger there is if you get an "FR expert" in the group - but that's the same in any setting.

Hyrael
2007-09-24, 04:14 PM
I'm very familiar with eberron, and only passingly knowledgeable about FR. Here are the things about it that I like:

Panoramic Completeness: the whole setting seems to be very mapped out, with beleivable cultures. real world cultures arent a "planet of the hats" where every single one has a unique feature that sets it apart. same with FR. the differences between cultures and their identities is less obvious, formulaic, and more subtle. as opposed to "breland is like the USA, except much smaller and less powerfull" Anudair is like france, the valenar elves have turbans and horses, and Karrnath is like Russia and Germany combined."

Classicness: Nothing there is distinctly unfamiliar or jarring to one's sensibilities. it conforms to the general background of a fantasy goober's mind

Things I dont like: High-level good guys and good organizations. The whole world is a struggle between knightly orders of palladins and knightly orders of blackguards. Only children are 1st level, and everyone has at least 5 levels under their belt.

Genericness: It just kind of seems to be uniform. nothing is surprising.

Sorry, but I'm a but if a sucker for magepunk or dungeonpunk, or whatever you want to call it. I dont want flying ships or magic guns or robots in too large quantities, but I do like my major cities to be grimy and depressing, my country folks to be an odd combination of canny, intelligent people and predjudiced hicks, the major "LG" church to be a bastion of self-righteous cruelty and hypocracy, and my villainous organizations to be opposed mostly by other villainous organizations.

I like a but of grit and real-world cynicism, mixed with some wonderous fantasy, but I dont want to be beat over the head with magic trains.

I like eberron, but I also like the fact that there are things other than eberron. That way, eberron stays fresh and different (like jumping from the hot tub into the pool)

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 04:30 PM
Panoramic Completeness: the whole setting seems to be very mapped out, with beleivable cultures. real world cultures arent a "planet of the hats" where every single one has a unique feature that sets it apart. same with FR. the differences between cultures and their identities is less obvious, formulaic, and more subtle. as opposed to "breland is like the USA, except much smaller and less powerfull" Anudair is like france, the valenar elves have turbans and horses, and Karrnath is like Russia and Germany combined."

Classicness: Nothing there is distinctly unfamiliar or jarring to one's sensibilities. it conforms to the general background of a fantasy goober's mind

Incidentally, I find FR's "classicness" to be the same thing as what you later pointed out as a flaw: genericness.

Also, it sounds like you're playing "super stereotype overexaggeration pigeonhole go!" Eberron, the kind where you say "Silver Flame is Catholics" just because they have a position called "Cardinal" and happen to have a theocracy (even though theologically and practically, they've got next to nothing substantial in common with Catholicism. Heck, you can compare them better to jedi as far as theology goes... and that's still a stretch). The kind where if they had called it a jihad instead of a crusade, you'd call them an Islam rip, regardless of the actual jarring differences in everything besides *name.* Not the one I'm playing, where the cultures definitely don't bear much of the resemblances you mentioned :-\

For example: Last I checked, Valenar wore zaelta masks and had a culture with development based strongly in an area that was decidedly *not* a desert (in fact, an island thick with forests), and that was reflected in the setting. Not the arab stereotype you mentioned.


I like eberron, but I also like the fact that there are things other than eberron. That way, eberron stays fresh and different (like jumping from the hot tub into the pool)

Variety is all well and good, but there's plenty of things that aren't Eberron that *also* aren't FR.

Thus... NOT an actual reason to play FR, since that qualifier is held by a hundred thousand other settings.

AslanCross
2007-09-24, 04:46 PM
Sorry, but I'm a but if a sucker for magepunk or dungeonpunk, or whatever you want to call it. I dont want flying ships or magic guns or robots in too large quantities, but I do like my major cities to be grimy and depressing, my country folks to be an odd combination of canny, intelligent people and predjudiced hicks, the major "LG" church to be a bastion of self-righteous cruelty and hypocracy, and my villainous organizations to be opposed mostly by other villainous organizations.

Pretty sure you can find grimy and depressing major cities in FR. I'm running a game in Cormyr, and things have been much better. It's been torn apart by a major war with a red dragon and its army, its king died, and its borders are collapsing. It's relatively safe in the city, but all it would take is a siege to push it over the edge. Suzail is bad, and as far as I can remember, Marsember is worse.

If I'm not mistaken, many of the major cities (like Waterdeep) actually have extensive slum areas that aren't really explored because most adventurers would rather hobnob with the rich and famous. Why would I want to talk to beggar #0233341 and not one of the Masked Lords? Of course, that is up to the players.

I do like Forgotten Realms because of its completeness. It's a huge world that still has treacherous, unexplored areas. While I really don't like Elminster and the Seven Sisters, there's actually one good thing about all the uber-NPCs--I use them to prevent my players from powergaming.

My wizard kept bugging me once if he could play a chosen of Mystra. My simple answer: "Mystra has like, nine chosens already, all of them epic. Why would she want to make as-of-yet-unknown Lv 5 wizard a chosen character?"

He was also trying to build an unbalanced character "flaw" into his character (he switches from wizard to sorcerer spellcasting when he reaches less than 50% HP, or flips out and tries to kill everyone). Originally he said it was Mystra who did that--she cursed his bloodline because his ancestors killed a nameless Chosen.
My response: "There's such a thing?"
Wizard: "Okay, a chosen of Bane, then."
Me: "There's only ever been one Chosen of Bane. He overthrew an epic wizard AND made that epic wizard's clone his underling. So tell me again how your ancestors could take out someone of that level who for some reason managed to remain nameless."
Wizard: "Oh. Um, nevermind then."

FR has its flaws, of course, but I do like how you can set your campaign in a part of it faaaaaar away from the uber epic people so that your PCs can be true heroes.

I want to avoid comparing it with Eberron since that's not the point of this thread. I'd just like to say that it really just depends on what your players want. I'd be happy to run an Eberron game if my players asked for it.

Saph
2007-09-24, 04:50 PM
Things I dont like: High-level good guys and good organizations. The whole world is a struggle between knightly orders of palladins and knightly orders of blackguards. Only children are 1st level, and everyone has at least 5 levels under their belt.

The reason it seems this way is because FR is so huge. It's true there are a lot of high-level NPCs out there, but it's a big world; you can easily go from 1st to 20th level without running into any of them. Really, they should only crop up if the players or the DM want them to.

The alternative is not to have any high-level good/neutral NPCs around, but then you get the opposite problem; if there are no high-level good guys around, how come a high-level monster hasn't trashed your campaign setting by now? I mean, surely sooner or later one of those CR 25, AC 40, SR 30 killing machines from the Monster Manuals is going to figure out that a city with no characters over level 10 makes for a pretty decent snack bar.

- Saph

horseboy
2007-09-24, 05:02 PM
The alternative is not to have any high-level good/neutral NPCs around, but then you get the opposite problem; if there are no high-level good guys around, how come a high-level monster hasn't trashed your campaign setting by now? I mean, surely sooner or later one of those CR 25, AC 40, SR 30 killing machines from the Monster Manuals is going to figure out that a city with no characters over level 10 makes for a pretty decent snack bar.

- Saph

That is another problem that I have with D&D. All these super powerful monsters that 99% of the rest of humanity can't even look at their shadow without dying. How exactly is it that humanity is the dominate race? When humans serve the same niche in the ecology as rabbits, I have problems.

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-24, 05:07 PM
The reason it seems this way is because FR is so huge. It's true there are a lot of high-level NPCs out there, but it's a big world; you can easily go from 1st to 20th level without running into any of them. Really, they should only crop up if the players or the DM want them to.

The alternative is not to have any high-level good/neutral NPCs around, but then you get the opposite problem; if there are no high-level good guys around, how come a high-level monster hasn't trashed your campaign setting by now? I mean, surely sooner or later one of those CR 25, AC 40, SR 30 killing machines from the Monster Manuals is going to figure out that a city with no characters over level 10 makes for a pretty decent snack bar.

- Saph
This.

Seriously, if the PCs get to high levels in a world that's had civilizations around for fifty thousand years and they're the first ones to do so, my only reaction can be "Why?" Why has no one else managed to garner this much XP before in the entire history of the world? If anybody expects their characters to be the most powerful people in the setting in short order, and yet still have challenges around out there in monster-land, the question becomes the following: Why haven't those monsters that are challenging to us, the most powerful people in the world, eaten all the people who are far less powerful than us and would be easily overwhelmed?

Waterdeep would be Klauth's favorite restaurant if Khelben and some of the other inhabitants weren't as powerful as they are. That, and there's always the added bonus of powerful lords deterring the PCs from random assassination attempts. After all, when you're the most powerful people in the world, why not rule the world? It keeps a lid on otherwise unlimited player ambition; that is a very useful tool.

Toliudar
2007-09-24, 05:57 PM
I'll add something else about FR that others have only alluded to - in addition to having a wealth of game supplements, there are IDEAS out there, from twenty years (?) of other campaigns, from books, from computer games. Sure, a lot of them are transferrable, but you wouldn't be asking about a new campaign world if you wanted to spend a long time customizing your own cosmology.

I've both played and DM'ed in the Realms - and, briefly, played a mid-level character hanging out with their own deity - and understand the problems that folks have with uber-NPC's in the neighbourhood. The simple answer, as mentioned above, is that these characters are only as active, and only as present, as the group as a whole wants them to be. If the players are clearly put off by having some epic spellcaster as a mentor/driving force, it'll become pretty clear. Then they get mysteriously "disappeared" an equally powerful nasty, and it sets the party up for a throughline that might, at some point, re-intersect and have them rescue the mentor.

I like the variety of settings, and the ability to justify a large number of nationalities/deities/backgrounds. My personal tastes run towards a lower-magic campaign, but what the heck.

Counterpower
2007-09-24, 06:30 PM
I've played and DMed both FR and Eberron.

On FR's side, at least I can send them epic in FR with no qualms. In our current Eberron campaign, I have them hunting for ancient magic. Which, as a side note, is a plus for Eberron: I found that the Draconic Prophecy was always very ill-defined. The books kept alluding to it, but none ever defined what in the world it was. So I did that myself, and in the process gained a new epic major artifact that has since become the focus of the campaign. :smallbiggrin: Back to the original point: ancient, devastatingly powerful magic isn't commonly controlled by 10th level wizards, it's controlled by 25th level wizards. The only problem then being that to most of the general guidelines of Eberron, there's probably only one wizard above level 20.

The other problem being this is a scavenger hunt designed to last out the campaign, not a "kill one guy, congrats, you win." So I've had to search for other sources of power. One of which was the cliched "found an artifact and used it without knowing what it did." Man, those ancient magic items are so dangerous, you know? They might even be able to twist whole countries into a mockery of their former selves. (Have I mentioned yet how much I like Eberron's lack of specific details? Cause I really enjoyed defining the causes of the Day of Mourning.)

They each have their pluses. Personally, I prefer Faerun's deities, but that's a personal preference. One thing I actually like about D&D as a whole is the chance to view the world in black and white. The gray morality of Eberron does make for interesting plot, but in the end, I want to see good win. (Which is why I built an adventure that ended in the defeat of High Cardinal Krozen. Plus for Eberron: you can actually win against major NPCs.)

de-trick
2007-09-24, 06:32 PM
I like FR's sure some high level guy's but it stops you when your 20th level and take over the world. Also if every person you run into is a high level it's your DM. My DM runs a game and only important people are high level. We even agents of selune and that was at 4th level. If the top level of a NPC whats stopping the rogue from stealing the royal jewels, the paladin from cleansing the world of all evil, the higher level NPCs good or evil.

For customization you can always add a city or even a country by taking a little bit of the map thats not colored in by anything and make it your own.

my DM made a city as big as waterdeep, with a huge background from a former iron golem elite guard who had the mind of a 8 year old to a trade route with the desert people(cant spell name). The city was strait on in line with the moon-shae islands but on the mainland

Ralfarius
2007-09-24, 07:12 PM
my DM made a city as big as waterdeep, with a huge background from a former iron golem elite guard who had the mind of a 8 year old to a trade route with the desert people(cant spell name). The city was strait on in line with the moon-shae islands but on the mainland
That's what is nice about FR. It's really big and in-depth, but it still allows for complete ground-up history in open spaces if the group so desires.

Also, that golem sounds suspiciously like a Tachikoma from Ghost in the Shell, or possibly Al from Fullmetal Alchemist.

DeathQuaker
2007-09-24, 07:44 PM
In a broad general sense, if what you are looking for is a well-developed, vast, high-magic fantasy world with a deep history, the Forgotten Realms is a great campaign setting.

There is a lot of depth to it based on the various cultures and geography... setting something in Mulhorand is an entirely different game compared to one set in the Dalelands, or in Amn. So you can find something that suits what you want to run and have material to work with--while the world is big enough that you have some wiggle room to make up what you want.

There's also some neat history there... some of the ancient lost empires like Netheril and Illefarn have some neat stories of their own.

I personally like the deities... there are perhaps too many of them, but a lot of them have some neat designs, portfolios, and personalities.

Re: gamers "knowing too much" or expecting big NPCs to show up... contrary to some folks' belief, not everyone reads the FR novels, or plays the video games based on FR, or has read every FR sourcebook back to front. And as Saph and others have pointed out, the world is large enough you can still surprise a veteran with a thing or two.

If you are worried about running a game with someone who "knows too much" about the FR, some advice:

- Stay away from the Sword Coast, and to a lesser extent the Icewind Dale, the Savage Frontier, and the Dalelands. These are where a number of video games and stories take place, and where most folks' knowledge is strongest. The southern and southwestern regions are probably the least used and you should find some storyhooks in those areas that can be interesting.

- Think about setting the game "in the future" of the current FR "storyline." That gives you room to say, "Well, the events that caused thus and such were reversed by this other event..." if someone gets argumentative and they aren't listening to the "My world" argument (though they should). Alternatively, you could set it in the past and declare you are creating alternate history.

Oh, and back to general advice: pay no heed to the comparisons to Eberron being "better" or "worse". They're two very different worlds with very different feels. If what you're looking for is ultimately more the feel to Eberron, great, but one setting is not a simple alternative for the other.

Talya
2007-09-24, 08:02 PM
Forgotten Realms is the only setting that feels like it has a modicum of completion. (And I mean "modicum." 60-80% of the world is still unwritten.) It actually has a reasonable number of high level characters and details mapped out for use, and a solid history to work with. Eberron feels like it's a work in progress...and very near the beginning of said progress.

For those who believe there's noplace that's not detailed with room for DM interpretation, let me present to you the world of Abeir-Torril.

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/alishadearmin//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/toril.jpg

psychoticbarber
2007-09-24, 08:21 PM
Talya, would you be so kind as to spoiler that?

Thanks for the map, though :smallsmile:.

Talya
2007-09-24, 08:22 PM
Talya, would you be so kind as to spoiler that?

Thanks for the map, though :smallsmile:.

Sure, there you go...

Golthur
2007-09-24, 08:23 PM
I have to agree with OneWinged4ngel on this one. My biggest issue with the Realms is that the whole setting is most emphatically not about the PCs, it's about Elminster, and Drizz't, and the Simbul, and Szass Tam, etc., etc., etc.

Last time I ran a Realms campaign, I destroyed everything and had the entire populace trapped in illithid slave compounds for the last six generations. I destroyed the Weave, killed off all the major NPCs with one or two exceptions, and turned Evermeet into a smoking crater, reducing the few remaining free elves to a nomadic race.

I also had the illithid create a sentient artifact called the Godsbane that isolated the gods of Faerun from their worshippers.

My players didn't even know it was the Realms until fairly late in the campaign.

I loved that game :biggrin:

Talya
2007-09-24, 08:25 PM
I have to agree with OneWinged4ngel on this one. My biggest issue with the Realms is that the whole setting is most emphatically not about the PCs, it's about Elminster, and Drizz't, and the Simbul, and Szass Tam, etc., etc., etc.

Last time I ran a Realms campaign, I destroyed everything and had the entire populace trapped in illithid slave compounds for the last six generations. I destroyed the Weave, killed off all the major NPCs with one or two exceptions, and turned Evermeet into a smoking crater, reducing the few remaining free elves to a nomadic race.

I also had the illithid create a sentient artifact called the Godsbane that isolated the gods of Faerun from their worshippers.

My players didn't even know it was the Realms until fairly late in the campaign.
I loved that game :biggrin:

Might as well play on a white page.

The world is not supposed to center around the players. Their campaign does, but the world should be bigger than they are. MUCH bigger. The NPC Iconics and Gods are there to give the players a concrete history, and something tangible to aspire to; they are not there to play a direct role in the things that take place in your game.

Golthur
2007-09-24, 08:33 PM
Might as well play on a white page.

The world is not supposed to center around the players. Their campaign does, but the world should be bigger than they are. MUCH bigger.

Ah, but you're missing the point. It was FUN.

The PCs, being one of the few sorts who actually stood up to the illithid became the center of their little world. Admittedly, the world was much bigger than them, and, the idea of driving the illithid off, while appealing, was (at the outset) wholly beyond their power.

The point is, the PCs felt (and were) IMPORTANT, not insignificant little spectators in the grand NPC-driven machinery.

Talya
2007-09-24, 09:18 PM
Ah, but you're missing the point. It was FUN.

The PCs, being one of the few sorts who actually stood up to the illithid became the center of their little world. Admittedly, the world was much bigger than them, and, the idea of driving the illithid off, while appealing, was (at the outset) wholly beyond their power.

The point is, the PCs felt (and were) IMPORTANT, not insignificant little spectators in the grand NPC-driven machinery.

If your campaign lasts long enough (ours has gone from level 4 through near 15), your PCs become important even WITH the iconics. My sorceress is finally at a level where she can almost deal with Qilue (one of Greenwood's "seven sisters") as a peer. At early epic levels ... very early...the Faerun iconics become very weak. They are designed to do a little bit of everything, they are very weak for their actual character level, being horribly multiclassed. Heck, Drizzt as statted out in the books wouldn't last 3 rounds against our party ranger/fighter. The iconics aren't THAT tough. Even Elminster's only about a caster level 25 Wizard (lots of levels of other stuff, mind you,) and he's about the most powerful iconic being in that multiverse that doesn't have a divine rank.

de-trick
2007-09-24, 09:21 PM
Also for player point of view say one wants to play a Asian/ninja guy he can be from Kura-Tur, but if one character want to play a viking like character he could play a Illuskan, or a French knight from Cormyr, but can all play in one area(with a good background and a nice DM).

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-24, 09:24 PM
I have run a campaign in Faerun from level 1 through (so far) 16. The only iconic that even began to figure in was Fzoul Chembryl, and that only insofar as they were trying to ransack his quarters while he wasn't there; they succeeded and never saw hide nor hair of him. I'm currently in the process of transferring the campaign from the Moonsea to Waterdeep for the higher levels, and still no iconics in sight. It is very easy to run a campaign without ever having any of the good-aligned iconic characters even figure in.

Seatbelt
2007-09-25, 12:23 AM
I have to agree with OneWinged4ngel on this one. My biggest issue with the Realms is that the whole setting is most emphatically not about the PCs, it's about Elminster, and Drizz't, and the Simbul, and Szass Tam, etc., etc., etc.

Last time I ran a Realms campaign, I destroyed everything and had the entire populace trapped in illithid slave compounds for the last six generations. I destroyed the Weave, killed off all the major NPCs with one or two exceptions, and turned Evermeet into a smoking crater, reducing the few remaining free elves to a nomadic race.

I also had the illithid create a sentient artifact called the Godsbane that isolated the gods of Faerun from their worshippers.

My players didn't even know it was the Realms until fairly late in the campaign.

I loved that game :biggrin:



Dude, are you running my D&D game in Madison Wisconsin?

Dervag
2007-09-25, 01:05 AM
In Forgotten Realms, if you pick a fight with a random NPC on the street, your just as likely to fight a commoner as an epic wizard in disguise who will blow you and the entire city up.Statistically, that seems a little hard to believe. Of course, if the DM wants to make every other person an epic wizard in disguise you can't stop them, but that's a DM fiat and not a feature of the campaign universe.


In Eberron, your likely to get an on CR fight out of a random NPC.Since a random NPC is the DM's creation (as opposed to a nonrandom NPC like Elminster), it's the DM's job to make fights fair. Moreover, picking fights with random NPCs shouldn't automatically be a good way to get into CR-appropriate fights. If I wander around at random picking fights with people in real life, most of them aren't going to be fair, because most people will either lose quickly or kick my butt quickly. Only a small fraction of the people in the world are exactly the small bit weaker than I am in a fight to pose a CR-appropriate challenge for me.


Also, Eberron supports grey area alignment, and has dieties that make sense, instead of shoe-horn alignment and "There are hundreds of gods and they all do stuff and you need a gods backing to do magic, even arcane magic"That's actually more in line with the traditions of real world mythologies, and not everyone's going to agree on what kinds of deities "make sense."


Is it obvious I don't like Forgotten Realms?Very much so.


2) Many NPCs are arbitrarily powerful for *no good reason.* Seriously, it breaks my suspension of disbelief when Random King Steve The Second is a 20th level wizard and has the power to do... just about everything, but that doesn't reflect on the actual setting in any way. What do I prefer? When people are very powerful, they have a reason, and they have affected the setting in some way to represent it (for example, take, say, the Daughters of Sora Kell, the Daelkyr, and the hgiher level Inspired in Eberron).What qualifies as a 'reason' to be powerful? Kings have political power, clearly; but you'd think that in a world where people more powerful than kings exist (arch-wizards), the arch-wizards would tend to take over the country.


3) Following that NPCs are powerful for no good reason, high or even epic levels aren't actually epic. Sure, you can stop time and all that, but so can everyone else (even if they choose not to do so for some reason). Sure, you're 15th level, but there are 15th level guards in that city for some reason too. What do I prefer? PCs are movers and shakers at high level, and they have to go save the world because they're the only ones who *can.*The catch is that this can create its own violation of suspension of disbelief. Now I have to believe that the campaign world has existed for hundreds or thousands of years without there ever having been large numbers of people capable of defeating the monsters and challenges that crop up practically every day.

If the average town doesn't have access to a person or group of people capable of killing, say, a troll, then why are there still towns in any part of the world where trolls can be found?

NPCs have to be powerful enough to handle the routine challenges they must face without suffering irreparable damage. Since the challenges are defined by the setting, the level distribution of NPCs is also defined by the setting.


4) Religions. Alignment. Stereotypes. Ugh. Gods actually are more like "powerful people you choose to throw your allegiance with" rather than actual faiths involving all the depth of real world religions and sects. Evil tends to be Evil for Evil's sake, rather than something more believable and interesting. What do I prefer? Faith-based religion, a more believable take on alignment, and some depth.That makes sense. Of course, some real-life polytheistic religions seemed to view the gods as people writ large, so there is a precedent for the Forgotten Realms' approach.


5) It's their story, not yours. Like one person said before, he liked that it was "all detailed out." But this also means that you don't have room to move around yourself. By contrast, I prefer something like Eberron, where a great deal of the setting as far as any important plots go is intentionally left open to give the DM tools to create his OWN plot, while the setting itself is mostly a framework for DMs to work in.It seems like a lot of people here have managed to do that in Forgotten Realms, so I'm not sure that it's automatically impossible to move around yourself in the setting.

A planet is a big place. Even if the events of a hundred novels have been written about it, there's going to be plenty of stuff that doesn't appear in any of the novels. Imagine if somebody tried to detail the history, powerful people, and issues of the real world by writing the amount of stuff found in the Forgotten Realms canon. They'd still be leaving a huge amount of stuff out; enough for many people to live full, rich lives without ever encountering anything found in the books.


6) More of "it's their story, not yours" and "the NPCs are more important than the PCs." The writers of FR write in characters from campaigns they've run, and then make them a big deal. I prefer that the setting allows the PCs to shine, as opposed to forcing the DM to preface every adventure with "Well Elminster, Drizz't, and thirty other powerful good guys are too busy to do anything today because XYZ, and so you have to save the world instead!"If every session involves the PCs saving the world, then you have other problems. Maybe the appropriate thing to do with a Forgotten Realms campaign is to assume that the world doesn't need saving, but that the town does, or that the dungeon full of zombies 'needs' looting, or t hat the players need to engage in intrigue and conflict with other equally powerful people without the fate of the world hanging in the balance. There's a huge range of adventure scales between 'catch rats' and 'save the universe,' and the PCs should spend most if not all of their career in the space in between the two extremes.


That is another problem that I have with D&D. All these super powerful monsters that 99% of the rest of humanity can't even look at their shadow without dying. How exactly is it that humanity is the dominate race? When humans serve the same niche in the ecology as rabbits, I have problems.The assumption has to be that these monsters are rare (so that there aren't any in the regions humans actually live in), or that they spend most of their time fighting each other.

Idea Man
2007-09-27, 02:23 AM
I've never had the pleasure of playing in Eberron, so I couldn't compare it to the Realms in any meaningful way. Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, even Spelljammer *shudder* perhaps, but this is really about the Realms, here.

I'm running a campaign in the country of Impiltur, the Realm of Sword and Wand. The land has been plagued by demons, both open war and subterfuge, since its founding several hundered years ago, the result of a fallen kingdom of fell summoners who used these outsiders to crush their enemies and fell to their own horde. My players are running a high-level to epic game to banish the demon lord Eltab, the source of the continued infestation of demons.
They have saved the life of the soon-to-be-crowned king, Imphras II, made a grudging friend of the most surly of the twelve lords who presently rule, and are to be awarded the Shield of the Faithful ribbon at the king's coronation for their incredible service to date.
They've tangled with the Thralls of Eltab, the Red Wizards of Thay, the Twisted Rune (not my fault!), and the demoness Sonellion and her thralls. They have Harpers, Triadic Knights (the gods Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater in one pretty sweet package), and Red Wizards (um, not my fault?) as allies. Plus my own home-brewed Khalia-style overvillain.
They'll visit Thay, Rasheman, Damara, Vassa, and the Great Dale in their upcoming travels. The Citadel of Conjurers, a site of overwhelming evil, features highly in their future.

So, now that I've ranted, show how cool my campaign is and all that (and I understand that THAT is my point of view ONLY:smalltongue: ), I suppose I should make a point of some kind. All of that is in the Realms, ready for me to breath the life of a campaign into it. I know who the Red Wizards are, and can use them without having to look up anything. I didn't have to draw up a world-reaching influence for them, they're already there. Metagaming? EVERYone knows of the Red Wizards reputation. You don't cross them, unless you like pain. :smallamused:

It helps to be well read in the setting, but all you need to know is your corner of the world, as big as the Sword Coast, or as small as Bob's crossroads. The Realms has all the source materail you could want. Take what you want and go. If the players mention something else, take a look; it might be worth adding.
Besides, we didn't start this game (or thread) because we hated reading, now did we? :smallwink:

I give thanks to Champions of Evil for inspiring this campaign, and the old Unapproachable East box set, new UE expansion, Feindish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, and Dragon Magazine for making my campaign as rich as it can be.

Questions appreciated, critcisim appreciated, dissin' my baby...not so much.:smallwink: