Shield & Hand Crossbow?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I was just wondering if anyone has worked on some type of build using a hand crossbow & a shield as there primary armaments? Crossbow Expert seems to work even with it being in your primary hand, and it seems odd enough stylistically to be interesting to me?

[Contrast]

Note that even without the loading trait, the weapon still has the ammunition trait which requires you to have a free hand to load the ammunition into the weapon. So you'd need to talk to your DM about some sort of magic/mechanical self loading crossbow.

[LudicSavant]

Note that even without the loading trait, the weapon still has the ammunition trait which requires you to have a free hand to load the ammunition into the weapon. So you'd need to talk to your DM about some sort of magic/mechanical self loading crossbow.

This. A hand crossbow still takes a free hand to load, even without the Loading property. The Ammunition property still needs a free hand. Removing the Loading property just lets you use it with Extra Attack.

[Crucius]

Shield master + crossbow expert is a pretty fun combo actually, although it is feat-heavy.

Declare attack action -> bonus action prone shove with shield master -> crossbow expert removes close range penalty (as well as the loading property) and prone says you have to be within 5 feet for the advantage, it doesn't specify melee weapons -> execute that mofo gangster style.

This nets you a pretty versatile build with 3 attacks on ranged (assuming martial class with extra attack), or 2 attacks with advantage if shield bash is successful (makes you want to get sharpshooter so that's yet another feat).

Edit:

This. A hand crossbow still takes a free hand to load, even without the Loading property. The Ammunition property still needs a free hand. Removing the Loading property just lets you use it with Extra Attack.

Hmm, I didn't know this, maybe my suggested idea doesn't work after all. There are some easy flavor workarounds (boltcases on the side of the leg on which you can load your handcrossbow, auto-loading crossbow as mentioned before, have the shield attached to your arm so your hand is actually free to do small object interactions but just not wield another weapon), but RAW I guess it juuuust doesn't work.

[Helldin87]

How many hand crossbows can you carry? Do you feel comfortable with tossing them aside with the intention of picking them up later if the opportunity presents itself? I like to imagine a pirate with hand cannons. Loading these would be impractical but there are plenty of artist renditions of swashbucklers with 4+ cannons strapped to their person for just this reason. Maybe the hand crossbow is your world's equivalent =D

[Zhorn]

Shield master + crossbow expert is a pretty fun combo actually, although it is feat-heavy.

Declare attack action -> bonus action prone shove with shield master -> crossbow expert removes close range penalty (as well as the loading property) and prone says you have to be within 5 feet for the advantage, it doesn't specify melee weapons -> execute that mofo gangster style.

This nets you a pretty versatile build with 3 attacks on ranged (assuming martial class with extra attack), or 2 attacks with advantage if shield bash is successful (makes you want to get sharpshooter so that's yet another feat).

Edit:


Hmm, I didn't know this, maybe my suggested idea doesn't work after all. There are some easy flavor workarounds (boltcases on the side of the leg on which you can load your handcrossbow, auto-loading crossbow as mentioned before, have the shield attached to your arm so your hand is actually free to do small object interactions but just not wield another weapon), but RAW I guess it juuuust doesn't work.

It varies from table to table whether the DM would allow that, Jeremy Crawford has clarified the shove has to happen AFTER the attack action is made, not just declared.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994993596989300736?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E994993596989300736&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2018%2F0 5%2F23%2Fclarification-about-bonus-actions%2F

"Clarification about bonus actions: if a feature says you can do X as a bonus action if you do Y, you must do Y before you can do X. For Shield Master, that means the bonus action must come after the Attack action. You decide when it happens afterward that turn."

[JackPhoenix]

How many hand crossbows can you carry? Do you feel comfortable with tossing them aside with the intention of picking them up later if the opportunity presents itself? I like to imagine a pirate with hand cannons. Loading these would be impractical but there are plenty of artist renditions of swashbucklers with 4+ cannons strapped to their person for just this reason. Maybe the hand crossbow is your world's equivalent =D

Unlike pistol, crossbow needs more space thanks to the wide (comparable to the windth of the pistol) bow, the quarrel would fall out if you held it in the wrong position, can't be kept cocked indefinitely as you would weaken the bow, and you're more likely to trigger it by accident and shoot yourself when you move around.

Carrying a brace of pistol works, carriyng a bunch of loaded and cocked crossbows doesn't.

[LudicSavant]

It varies from table to table whether the DM would allow that, Jeremy Crawford has clarified the shove has to happen AFTER the attack action is made, not just declared.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994993596989300736?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E994993596989300736&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2018%2F0 5%2F23%2Fclarification-about-bonus-actions%2F



It is perhaps worth noting that this is one of the most controversial things ever posted on Sage Advice. Perhaps even the most controversial thing. (You don't even need to look into the storm of threads on just about every D&D-related site about it, even just scrolling down on the linked tweet will give you a bit of an idea).

JC ruled differently on Shield Master for years. The "clarification" followed him complaining publicly about Shield Master being a "cheese factory" (JC's choice of words) and doing a total 180 on WotC's long-held position on how the feat (and any mechanic with a similar wording) worked.

It also makes some mechanical interactions a fair bit... weirder as collateral damage.

So yeah. You can definitely expect this one to vary from table to table.

[Zhorn]

@LudicSavant; heh, tell me about it. The first time I took shieldmaster we were going by the logic that as long as you use the attack action that turn then the bonus action shove could be before or after the attack. Two sessions later and it was moved to being strictly after. Much teething issues on my part since my DM admitted to doing this change solely to remove my character from benefiting from my own shove. At least on the plus side it taught my character to play combat more strategically; shoving creatures who's turns would be after the rogue, etc.
But as I said, it varies from table to table.

[jaappleton]

How many hand crossbows can you carry? Do you feel comfortable with tossing them aside with the intention of picking them up later if the opportunity presents itself? I like to imagine a pirate with hand cannons. Loading these would be impractical but there are plenty of artist renditions of swashbucklers with 4+ cannons strapped to their person for just this reason. Maybe the hand crossbow is your world's equivalent =D

You play Reaper in Overwatch, don't you? :smalltongue:

[LudicSavant]

You play Reaper in Overwatch, don't you? :smalltongue:

You can tell he's evil because of all the ruthless littering.

[Innocent_bystan]

Shield master + crossbow expert is a pretty fun combo actually, although it is feat-heavy.
Declare attack action -> bonus action prone shove with shield master -> crossbow expert removes close range penalty (as well as the loading property) and prone says you have to be within 5 feet for the advantage, it doesn't specify melee weapons -> execute that mofo gangster style.


You don't need Shield Master (or even a shield) to perform this combo:
Declare attack action -> use first attack to shove -> finish attack routine -> use crossbow expert bonus attack.

The end result is the same: 1 shove and 2 attacks with advantage. And no complaints about RAW.

[LudicSavant]

The end result is the same: 1 shove and 2 attacks with advantage.

Yep. A similar thing also happens with people taking Spear+Shield+PAM.

Shove + Remaining Attacks + PAM bonus action attack.

[PeteNutButter]

As for the loading of a crossbow with a shield hand, that's where people usually bring up whether the D&D shield is a center grip shield or strapped on. Taking an action to don or doff it certainly implies we typically use the strapped-on type, in which case (depending on shield size) you might be able to still use that shield hand to load as it remains strapped on.

Not RAW of course, but not a stretch with your DM maybe.

[Helldin87]

Unlike pistol, crossbow needs more space thanks to the wide (comparable to the windth of the pistol) bow, the quarrel would fall out if you held it in the wrong position, can't be kept cocked indefinitely as you would weaken the bow, and you're more likely to trigger it by accident and shoot yourself when you move around.

Carrying a brace of pistol works, carriyng a bunch of loaded and cocked crossbows doesn't.

I agree with you mechanically 100%. I would however argue that we ARE in a realm of low-high fantasy where lots of things are taken for granted. RAW I don't see why this doesn't work.

If you as the DM want to work out additional mechanics "likely to get shot by own hand Xbow" then you are of course free to do so but imo that's a conversation with the player in question.

[Crucius]

You don't need Shield Master (or even a shield) to perform this combo:
Declare attack action -> use first attack to shove -> finish attack routine -> use crossbow expert bonus attack.

The end result is the same: 1 shove and 2 attacks with advantage. And no complaints about RAW.

Yes, I realized that as soon as I hit send. Luckily the shield master feat provides a lot of survivability as well so it's not a waste if you want to heavily feature the shield in your roleplay. But yes, you're fine without, better even.

[jaappleton]

There actually is a fairly simply way to still use a shield and be able to load a crossbow. Though it's admittedly 1000000000% DM dependent.

Aren't there historical examples of a shield that strapped to your arm, leaving your hand free to manipulate objects?

It shouldn't be hard to have a custom shield made at a blacksmith. Right?

[LudicSavant]

It shouldn't be hard to have a custom shield made at a blacksmith. Right?

Having a shield that continues to actually do the job of a shield (including the job of a buckler) while also leaving your hand free to manipulate stuff (particularly for tasks as demanding as drawing a crossbow) is more difficult than you might think.

Holding javelins and such in the shield hand is a time-honored tradition for peltasts and the like. But gripping some stuff which you then manipulate with your other, javelin-throwing hand is not really the same as "having your hand free."

But IRL crossbowmen did use shields of a sort. They were called "pavises" and you'd basically stick them into the ground to give you cover and leave both of your hands free.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Balestriere1.jpg/225px-Balestriere1.jpg

[Laserlight]

There actually is a fairly simply way to still use a shield and be able to load a crossbow. Though it's admittedly 1000000000% DM dependent.

Aren't there historical examples of a shield that strapped to your arm, leaving your hand free to manipulate objects?

It shouldn't be hard to have a custom shield made at a blacksmith. Right?

I've used a buckler which left the hand free enough to grab things. With the gauntlets that went with it, I might have trouble picking out and grabbing one quarrel without accidentally getting a couple more and dropping the extras--although as a DM, I'd let you cut out the fingertips or something to fix that.

I don't think I'd let you get the +2AC on the turn while you're reloading, though. edit: shadowmonk'd

[Vogie]

There actually is a fairly simply way to still use a shield and be able to load a crossbow. Though it's admittedly 1000000000% DM dependent.

Aren't there historical examples of a shield that strapped to your arm, leaving your hand free to manipulate objects?

It shouldn't be hard to have a custom shield made at a blacksmith. Right?

In 3.P, that was a Buckler, which only gave +1 AC instead of +2


In 5e, I think the only way that you could do it is via finding/purchasing an Animated Shield.

[Helldin87]

The buckler concept is super cool but I feel that it potentially gives way too much of the "best of both worlds". There would have to be restrictions on weapon type otherwise there would be a hard situation to envision where a buckler DIDN't add something to a character. Right now shields force PCs to have the skill (not always easy in some builds) and to forfeit using TWF and 2-handed weapons (and the great weapon fighting style). In most cases this is a build-defining choice.

Bucklers could easily change the economics here and be the defacto choice.

[LudicSavant]

Contrary to what 3.P would have you believe, the purpose of bucklers isn't to give you a small shield that leaves your hand free. Indeed, bucklers generally don't leave your hand free at all.

3.P bucklers that give you extra defense when wielding your greatsword is more or less a silly D&D-ism in the same vein as "studded leather."

[SleepIncarnate]

Also, going by how shields interfere with somatic components for spell casting if you don't have the war caster feat, it's safe to say they also impede your ability to load a weapon. None of that "strapped on, hands free" types of shields you all are thinking of per those rules. You could try to homebrew some kind of feat for that, but it's a super specific situation for a feat.

[Corran]

@LudicSavant; heh, tell me about it. The first time I took shieldmaster we were going by the logic that as long as you use the attack action that turn then the bonus action shove could be before or after the attack. Two sessions later and it was moved to being strictly after. Much teething issues on my part since my DM admitted to doing this change solely to remove my character from benefiting from my own shove. At least on the plus side it taught my character to play combat more strategically; shoving creatures who's turns would be after the rogue, etc.
But as I said, it varies from table to table.
Having the shove take place after your attacks does not change one bit the strategical importance regarding whom to shove. I am not arguing and I can understand how not being able to have your character profit from the feat can make a player search for how the team can benefit from this team, but the bulk of the benefit from the shoving part of this feat always came from melee allies than from the S&B SM build itself, whether one understood that or not. My point is, the sage advice regarding shield master does not add some teamwork value that was missing from the feat, it just makes it strictly worse than it was in every single respect (and IMO there is not one single good reason for that, as it was already a feat of highly situational value).

[Willie the Duck]

(and IMO there is not one single good reason for that, as it was already a feat of highly situational value).

There is value in the precedence that it sets regarding contingent effects and their triggering (so that 'if X, then Y' effects require X to happen first, thus assuring that they do, in fact, happen). I personally would like that ruling to stand, but then the feat to be reworded, such the feat-bearer still gets to do their shove-and-attack.

[Man_Over_Game]

There is ONE RAW way I know how to do it without any special magical items or whatever.

Arcane Trickster.

Mage Hand, hold my sh** while I load it.

[Ventruenox]

There is ONE RAW way I know how to do it without any special magical items or whatever.

Arcane Trickster.

Mage Hand, hold my sh** while I load it.

Wouldn't controlling the Mage Hand to do that compete for the bonus action to shoot again with Crossbow Expert?

[Man_Over_Game]

Wouldn't controlling the Mage Hand to do that compete for the bonus action to shoot again with Crossbow Expert?

That's correct. You can't use Crossbow Expert, but you can load a crossbow while using a shield, which is still quite the marvel (considering it's impossible in any other scenario).

[Edenbeast]

That's correct. You can't use Crossbow Expert, but you can load a crossbow while using a shield, which is still quite the marvel (considering it's impossible in any other scenario).

It takes an action to control the mage hand though, which means you can't do much else... The benefit is questionable.

[Man_Over_Game]

It takes an action to control the mage hand though, which means you can't do much else... The benefit is questionable.

Not for Arcane Tricksters. They can operate Mage Hand with a Bonus Action.


There is ONE RAW way I know how to do it without any special magical items or whatever.

Arcane Trickster.

Mage Hand, hold my sh** while I load it.


In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to control the hand.

There may be question as to whether or not you can load a crossbow with Mage Hand while you hold it (debatable, but the specialized Mage Hand CAN operate Thieves' Tools by itself), but I don't think there's any question as to whether or not you could have the hand hold the crossbow while you load it yourself.

The Hand holds up to 10 pounds, and the Hand Crossbow weighs 3. If you include the bolt (weights 1.5 lbs. per 20 pieces, or .075 lbs. each), it's well within the weight limit.

------------

Balance-wise, why not? It's not like using a Shield and a Crossbow is going to matter much, especially if they're using their Bonus Action to reload rather than Cunning Action Hide or Crossbow Expert Attack. Balance-wise, the Rogue is spending a Bonus Action each turn to gain +2 AC, which isn't much different than a Kensei Monk, except the Rogue has to Feat/Multiclass for that Shield Proficiency. So...seems fine to me.

[The Jack]

Unlike pistol, crossbow needs more space thanks to the wide (comparable to the windth of the pistol) bow, the quarrel would fall out if you held it in the wrong position, can't be kept cocked indefinitely as you would weaken the bow, and you're more likely to trigger it by accident and shoot yourself when you move around.

Carrying a brace of pistol works, carriyng a bunch of loaded and cocked crossbows doesn't.

A crossbow the size of a pistol with pre-modern technology would be somewhere between a 22. and a BB gun. You're only going to be a danger if the enemy is naked and you're using poison or hitting them in the eyes. Things like ergonomics and such don't come into it, it's strictly a rule-of-cool weapon (unless they're like... carbine size, then they might be feasible)

Furthermore... I think most of your issues could be resolved with just better engineering. Add some bells and whistles to keep things in place and such...

[LudicSavant]

Not for Arcane Tricksters. They can operate Mage Hand with a Bonus Action.





There may be question as to whether or not you can load a crossbow with Mage Hand while you hold it (debatable, but the specialized Mage Hand CAN operate Thieves' Tools by itself), but I don't think there's any question as to whether or not you could have the hand hold the crossbow while you load it yourself.

The Hand holds up to 10 pounds, and the Hand Crossbow weighs 3. If you include the bolt (weights 1.5 lbs. per 20 pieces, or .075 lbs. each), it's well within the weight limit.

Wouldn't the actual forces acting on the hand include the force necessary to draw the crossbow? That's way more than 10 pounds.

[Man_Over_Game]

Wouldn't the actual forces acting on the hand include the force necessary to draw the crossbow? That's way more than 10 pounds.

I'd also say that operating the Thieves' Tools necessary to stop complex machinery with zero loss in accuracy using a single, invisible hand is impossible with 10 pounds worth of strength, but here we are.

The same 3lb., one handed crossbow deals as much damage as being slashed with a 3lb. Scimitar, and can be fired 2-5 times in the same 6 second period with "special training". Sure, realistically, a crossbow would take more than 10lbs to load, but also realistically, a crossbow capable of being loaded and fired once every two seconds wouldn't have the impact of a sword or an axe.

Sometimes, realism doesn't fit.

Narratively, I think it seems rather cool, and balance-wise, I can't find it being much better than most other circumstances, so...why not?

[LudicSavant]

I'd also say that operating the Thieves' Tools necessary to stop complex machinery with zero loss in accuracy using a single, invisible hand is impossible with 10 pounds worth of strength, but here we are.

I'm not sure what you think is coming in a set of Thieves' Tools. You get a small file, narrow bladed scissors, a small mirror, a set of lock picks. Tools for delicate work like cutting tripwires and such.

Saying you can manipulate scissors or lock picks or a small mirror doesn't seem like grounds for concluding that it can handle considerably more than 10 pounds (or, in other words, do more than what the rules say it can do).

[Naanomi]

Be a loxodon, use your nose

[jaappleton]

Be a loxodon, use your nose

Its a TRUNK, don't be so insensitive!

[Naanomi]

Its a TRUNK, don't be so insensitive!
Whatever you call it, watch it fly as your lvl 20 fighter action surges and it rapidly reloads each shot in less than a second

[HappyDaze]

Be a loxodon, use your nose

I'm pretty sure that they specifically cannot use the trunk to reload a weapon.

[LudicSavant]

I'm pretty sure that they specifically cannot use the trunk to reload a weapon.

I think the idea Naanomi is suggesting is that you basically are holding the crossbow with hand+trunk, taking your hand off the trigger to reload, then putting it back to fire.

As long as transferring items between hands doesn't cost anything (which JC has said is the case), you just need the trunk to hold the weapon while you reload it. The trunk doesn't have to do the actual reloading.

So as long as the trunk can resist the weight of drawing the hand crossbow, I can't think of anything that would prevent this.

[Citadel97501]

So now that it has been noted that this mainly works with Crossbow Expert due to the Sage Advice errata, does anyone have any class suggestions? I was thinking this would work well with a Rogue & Fighter multi-class. The Rogue would let you have expertise in Athletics making the shove more efficient, while also providing a sneak attack damage boost for shooting people when they are prone. Fighter gets you the armor proficiencies, fighting style for archery, action surge, and the extra attacks.

I was thinking Champion works best with this due to the Advantage and the Crit fishing but I am still looking it over, and am definitely willing to hear other suggestions.

Prone Targets using 1 attack for a shove: At level 6: Fighter 5, Rogue 1, Dexterity 16 or 17 (V Human better off with an 18 and earlier access.)
1 shove, 1 action shot, 1 bonus action shot.
Average Damage rolls: 2d6+3=10, and 1d6+3=6.5, Critical hits are 4d6+3=17, 2d6+3=10
DPR VS. AC 16: +8 to hit, (0.79% and a 19% for a crit), 18.56
DPR VS. AC 19: +8 to hit, (0.6525% and a 19% for a crit), 15.89

[HappyDaze]

I think the idea Naanomi is suggesting is that you basically are holding the crossbow with hand+trunk, taking your hand off the trigger to reload, then putting it back to fire.

As long as transferring items between hands doesn't cost anything (which JC has said is the case), you just need the trunk to hold the weapon while you reload it. The trunk doesn't have to do the actual reloading.

So as long as the trunk can resist the weight of drawing the hand crossbow, I can't think of anything that would prevent this.

Both hands are part of the reloading. Any other idea is just silly rules lawyering.

[Naanomi]

Wielding a weapon is forbidden with a trunk, but reloading one isn’t... some dm adjudication is at play of course

[HappyDaze]

Wielding a weapon is forbidden with a trunk, but reloading one isn’t... some dm adjudication is at play of course

I would think that reloading a weapon requires "manual precision" which the trunk is explicitly incapable of providing.

[Naanomi]

I would think that reloading a weapon requires "manual precision" which the trunk is explicitly incapable of providing.
It can pull, push, grapple... loading a crossbow seems within that range of challenge to me. Again, DM adjudication requires perhaps

[HappyDaze]

It can pull, push, grapple... loading a crossbow seems within that range of challenge to me. Again, DM adjudication requires perhaps

Can an elephant reload a crossbow with its trunk? Basically that should be the test of what the trunk can do because that's what it's based upon.

[JackPhoenix]

Can an elephant reload a crossbow with its trunk? Basically that should be the test of what the trunk can do because that's what it's based upon.

Only one way to find out. I'll provide the crossbow, you get the elephant.

Jokes aside, no, real elephant wouldn't because he lacks hands and only one limb is too low. You can possibly **** a crossbow with one hand, if you have a way to steady it (most likely by using stirrup) and the correct mechanism (either hand-drawn with low enough draw weight to draw the string with one hand, winch or lever (the later two could propably be operated with a trunk if you design them for it)), however, you'll need to keep it leveled and steady as you put the quarrel into the groove, so it doesn't fall out before you can take aim. That can also be done with one hand... just put it down, insert quarrel, lift it... but that's no go because that would take two object interactions in D&D (one to put it down carefully, another to grab it again), but trunk should be strong and dexterous enough to hold the crossbow level so you can load the bolt with your free hand.