Zombie Template Clarification

[RoboEmperor]

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[OgresAreCute]

1. From a certain point of view, possibly. There's no point in a Zombie having secondary natural attacks, since they can't make full attacks regardless. (With the possible exception of Pounce + partial charge? Some zombieologist should fact check that.)

2. As far as I can see, there's no good reason for some to have 1.5x STR and some to only have 1x. Doesn't seem related to size since the Minotaur zombie is large and does not have 1.5x. It makes sense for all zombies to have it, but they clearly don't. The "Attacks" heading of the template doesn't specify.

The SRD on Natural Weapons as this to say:

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

The "one [natural weapon] is the primary weapon" line is patently false as the Gray Render zombie has two different natural attacks, and neither has a penalty to the attack roll. The line saying "the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry." also doesn't seem to mean anything since the weapon with the largest attack bonus or the one with 1.5x STR to damage is not necessarily given first (ex: Gray Render zombie). Doesn't seem like the ones who have real weapons or other natural weapons have a weaker slam either, since the Wyvern has a 1.5x Slam but also has Talons, and the Ogre has a 1.5x Slam and a Greatclub. The Ogre has 1.5x STR on both its two-handed weapon and its Slam, but the Minotaur only has 1.5x STR on its two-handed weapon and not on its Gore or Slam attack. In short, I have no idea, maybe the stat blocks are just a little peculiar (as they often are).

[Falontani]

I have a feeling it has to do with creatures not usually proficient with all their natural weapons. Examine a large horse vs a warhorse.

[liquidformat]

just go with hydra zombies...

[Falontani]

I have no clear reasoning, just a hunch

[PunBlake]

Generally speaking, the designers choose the lower base die-size natural attack as the primary most of the time. (Unspoken rule? A trend that mostly holds true? I don't have a citation.)

Attacks with manufactured weapons always become primary first because of manufactured + natural weapon attack routine rules; manufactured weapons become primary attack modes by default. The Minotaur zombie has a greataxe, the Ogre zombie has a greatclub, and the Bugbear zombie has a morningstar in stat blocks, which are not listed above. If there are no manufactured weapons involved, one natural attack is supposed to be chosen as primary.

I'm pretty sure the stat blocks are chock full of errors here, given that in my copy of the MM1, the Wyvern zombie has an incorrect size penalty of -2 for Large in AC.
I think the Ogre's slam receiving the 1.5x STR bonus is in error, given that it has a greatclub.

None of the monsters here have the -5 penalty to attack from a secondary natural weapon. This may be because of a misunderstanding that Single Actions Only makes whatever the zombies attack with the primary weapon, because it is attacked with alone; this is wrong, as noted by OgresAreCute. Gray Render and Wyvern are written the same incorrect way, though, so at least the error is consistent?

[PunBlake]

It's actually the opposite. If a creature only has 1 natural weapon then that weapon receives 1.5 str bonus. So a weapon wielding creature turned zombie would only have the zombie slam attack as its natural weapon therefore it will receive 1.5 str bonus where as zombies who don't wield weapons will have multiple natural weapons and therefore the slam attack would not be the only natural weapon and therefore would not receive the str bonus.

Or so I thought. Stat blocks here say sometimes otherwise. I agree it's probably chalk full of errors, but in case it's not I ask.

I've always thought the rules for this were kinda unclear.
Here's a citation for this bit, emphasis mine:


Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature's description indicates otherwise (using the manufactured weapon consumes most of the creature's attention), and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature's primary natural weapon.

The real problem is the interaction between these Manufactured Weapons + Natural Weapons rules with the (implied from attack routine ramifications of) Single Actions Only from the Zombie Template. All of the "or"s in Attack blocks mean you can only attack with one type of weapon at once.

When you only attack with a single natural weapon, does it become primary?

Rules for Natural Weapons and Manufactured Weapons imply no; stat blocks here are written in contradictory ways, with the Ogre zombie being the exception for STR bonus but the lack of secondary natural weapon attack penalties muddying the waters significantly.

[PunBlake]

This means all the other zombies should have 1.5X STR for all of their natural attacks but do not.

Obviously, one set of zombies (either [Bugbear, Minotaur, Wyvern, Gray Render] or [Ogre]) is written incorrectly.

I'm going to quote the section of the Natural Weapons rules that I'm using to choose my set:


When a creature has more than one ... weapon, one of them ... is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining ... weapons are secondary.
... This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your interpretation. I can just see it going either way at table because of the number of corrections required.