Level 1 psion combat tactics/options.

[Tamior]

Let's say I'm playing a level 1 psion (Telepath, but it doesn't really matter much at level 1, I guess).
Let's also say that in the interest of having the most !fun! we are playing a campaign where XP gains are pretty slow, so I can expect to stay at level 1 for quite a few in-game months, if not years.

Now, let's make one more assumption: for whatever reason, every so often psion is forced to fight a monster effectively without the help of other PC's (other PC's are busy elsewhere, or simply roll so badly at their attack rolls that it does not contribute much, and the monster decided to focus on the psion). That's not to say psion is "solo" per say, but rather that we are simply considering a worst-case scenario where you can't rely on other for help.

For simplicity, let's stick to expanded psionics + core rules. 28 points for point buy, normal starting gold, no super-tight time constraints (so PC's can spend a few weeks crafting, or earning extra money via skills, or training animals, etc).
Enemies encountered are pretty standard CR ~1 stuff: low-end undead, animals, goblins, etc.


1) Assuming you don't care about your attack bonus much, is there any way to boost your AC outside of "just use the armor and shield with highest AC bonus you can afford"? Both Force Screen and Inertial Armor seems pretty moot when you can just have tower shield + chain shirt for the same bonus. Obviously, there are precognition-type powers, but they seem to be pretty bad "bang for the buck".

2) Are there any tricks that would allow you to reliably disengage from combat other than simply having higher speed and/or using "Deceleration" power? Speaking of effective speed, anything other than "Skate" power and "Speed of thought" feat you can realistically get at lvl 1 to boost it?

3) Matter Agitation seems like the absolute best (if somewhat slow-acting) attack power as it requires neither a touch attack nor allows for saving throw, but maybe I'm missing something here?

4) All other attack powers seems to be both close range AND rely on touch attack and/or allow for ST. Why exactly would you chose those at lvl 1 over simply firing a crossbow?

5) Any Control Light shenanigans you can think of other than just using it to cover your escape or to boost your hide checks?

6) Any Control Flames shenanigans you can think of (at psion level 1)?

7) What's the most efficient way to use a normal dog to prevent a melee enemy that is trying to attack you from attacking you? Just positing it between the two of you and fish for AoO's?

8) Any specific tactics to prevent melee opponents from engaging you other than just keeping your distance (some readied action tricks or some less-than-obvious positioning tricks)?

9) Any psicrystal shenanigans available at level 1? Strapping an open bottle of oil to it and making it run and hug the target you are about to set on fire via matter agitation?

10) Any other cool tactic you can think of for a lvl 1 psion?

[Zaq]

I don’t have time to answer all of your questions, but if you’re planning on wearing armor/shield that you aren’t proficient with just because psionics have no ASF, remember that nonproficiency penalties apply to Dexterity checks, and initiative is a Dexterity check. So a Psion in a tin can is almost always going to go last.

It might still be worthwhile to survive the extreme swinginess of the very lowest levels, but it’s still something to consider. Your opponent will basically always get a free turn on you, which might include getting closer than you want them to.

[Tamior]

I don’t have time to answer all of your questions, but if you’re planning on wearing armor/shield that you aren’t proficient with just because psionics have no ASF, remember that nonproficiency penalties apply to Dexterity checks, and initiative is a Dexterity check. So a Psion in a tin can is almost always going to go last.

It might still be worthwhile to survive the extreme swinginess of the very lowest levels, but it’s still something to consider. Your opponent will basically always get a free turn on you, which might include getting closer than you want them to.
True, but at level 1 your initiative (at 28 point buy abilities) is unlikely to be higher than +1. So you are, generally speaking, not going to go first vs most animals and the like anyway. Might as well take the extra AC from the tower shield.
Also, the armor penalty is just -2 (or -1 if masterworked). And you don't have to have you tower shield "active" outside of combat as it only takes a move action to activate it.

[Troacctid]

You could be a warforged (or warforged scout) and take Adamantine Body. That gives you high AC and damage reduction. Great for low level survivability.

[Particle_Man]

You could be a warforged (or warforged scout) and take Adamantine Body. That gives you high AC and damage reduction. Great for low level survivability.

But that race is not Expanded Psionics Handbook + Core.

[RoboEmperor]

Buy Guard Dogs and have them Guard you.

Then later switch to Riding Dogs and Heavy Warhorses. Maybe an Elephant.

Lodestone Marauders are pretty nice too.

Grab a crossbow and plink away. Use your Psi stuff for BFC and support your animals. You can solo most things reasonably well.

[Tamior]

So, just out of curiosity, how would you rule a psicrytal with a bottle of oil strapped to it trying to climb or jump a hostile target to soak it with said oil?

As per RAW, being Diminutive with a str score of 1 it can carry 1 lb bottle of oil at medium load without any problems. Maybe even as a light load if you consider psicrystasl to be quadruped.

To touch the target, it needs to enter it's space and succeed on a touch attack. Again, pretty straight-forward, as psicrystals can normally use touch attacks (they can deliver touch powers).

But what happens next? A climb check opposed by reflex save..? Some kind of opposite skill check?
I mean, you could try to resolve it as a normal grapple, but the psicrystal is simply trying to soak the target with oil, not "grapple" it in the straight-forward sense.

Even if you would rule that psicrystal can't "hold" onto the target to climb it (as per grapple rules), that still leaves the option of just jumping at the target. RAW, a psicrytal should be pretty capable of jumping 1-2 feet into the air even with -5 from low str.

Edit: after some deliberation, I think we are looking at something like psicrytal being forced to take a DC 8 jump check to reach the "center" of a medium-sized creature followed by a touch attack to actually hit it. On hit, the oil vial breaks and the target gets soaked. On miss for any reason, it'd say psi-cystal needs to take a DC 10 balance check to avoid breaking the vial anyway, soaking the ground. Sounds about right?

[Anthrowhale]

With regards to question 4, a goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) has AC 15 and Will-1, so a gray elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) Psion with Int 20 can create a DC 16 will save with Mind Thrust that the goblin fails 80% of the time. If you have Overchannel, the Mind Thrust can inflict 2d10 damage which has high odds of taking out the 5hp goblin. It's a potent high probability of success quick attack.

[Zaq]

With regards to question 4, a goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) has AC 15 and Will-1, so a gray elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) Psion with Int 20 can create a DC 16 will save with Mind Thrust that the goblin fails 80% of the time. If you have Overchannel, the Mind Thrust can inflict 2d10 damage which has high odds of taking out the 5hp goblin. It's a potent high probability of success quick attack.

A level 1 character with d4 HD, a racial CON penalty, and shockingly few point-buy points left after buying up your recommended preracial 18 INT should NOT be dealing themselves d8 damage, which is what Overchannel will do.

Decent strategy at level 3-5 (scaled up appropriately), but TERRIBLE advice at level 1. Especially if survival is a concern.

[Tamior]

With regards to question 4, a goblin has AC 15 and Will-1, so a gray elf Psion with Int 20 can create a DC 16 will save with Mind Thrust that the goblin fails 80% of the time. If you have Overchannel, the Mind Thrust can inflict 2d10 damage which has high odds of taking out the 5hp goblin. It's a potent high probability of success quick attack.
Going into mind thrust range vs goblin — when you have a crossbow — just does not sound right.
Heck, a smart goblin will literally ready a javelin to try and hit you as you attempt to manifest your mind thrust, forcing a concentration check.
And if that goblin makes that 20% save he will just whack you in the face on his action via a charge, likely one-shotting an elf.

All the while you can manifest "skate" to outrun the goblin and simply keep shooting it with your crossbow repeatedly from a respectable range. That way you will stay out of range of it's javelins, too.

Not to mention mind thrust is literally useless vs anything mindless, and you only know 3 powers at level 1, so you better make them count.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the input, but the range on mind thrust is just abysmal, and it can STILL fail, making you pretty much a sitting duck.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The best thing for a telepath to do at level 1 is to be a shaper. If he made a horrible decision and went telepath, instead, he should get himself a psicrystal with Hidden Talent (psionic minor creation), have his psicrystal create some plant-based poison, then have his psicrystal poison some crossbow bolts, which he then proceeds to fire at his enemies via a crossbow.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Honestly at level 1 for offense you probably are best off just firing the crossbow. Maybe have crystal shard or energy ray for enemies in a lot of armor and thus a touch attack actually makes a big difference. At level 1, enemies usually only have like 3-10 hp, so they'll drop in 1 or 2 hits and it's not worth blowing pp on doing the same damage as you could w/ a crossbow.

My favorite "budget" power is Demoralize. It hits all enemies w/in 30 ft around you, doesn't affect allies, and can be used to fear stack with Intimidate or other methods. I like getting the Unsettling Enchantment feat (per the transparency rules, Telepathy = Enchantment and it...basically is the same thing....I think most DMs would allow the feat to apply) to add a further debuff to my 1 power point wonder, though that bit's not in your allowed sources.
Of course, at level 1, enemies drop so fast that debuffs are pretty pointless, though in a crammed room w/ lots of weak foes, it might be worth using.

Vigor really isn't bad even at low levels, it'll probably about double your hp.

Deja Vu will be situational, but could often be very strong. Again...you could probably use the same action to just kill the foe w/ a crossbow bolt, though.

If your DM allows it to work in a combat situation where your side hasn't attacked anyone yet, Psionic Charm could end a fight for you, aside from the out of combat uses.

[emeraldstreak]

True, but at level 1 your initiative (at 28 point buy abilities) is unlikely to be higher than +1. So you are, generally speaking, not going to go first vs most animals and the like anyway. Might as well take the extra AC from the tower shield.
Also, the armor penalty is just -2 (or -1 if masterworked). And you don't have to have you tower shield "active" outside of combat as it only takes a move action to activate it.

You are reloading the crossbow and holding the tower shield how?

If you initiative is +1, then your crossbowing is +1. That's pathetic.

[Particle_Man]

If you are an elf, you could fire a short bow (later long bow when you can afford it) instead of a crossbow. You could also use a longsword or rapier if you were somehow stuck in meelee.

Leather armour has no penalties.

Can you hire people as guards (like npc warriors)? Might be worthwhile.

[Elkad]

Entangle it and shoot it with your longbow (elf, possibly grey), kiting as needed.

You've got 4 power points. Not a lot, but enough.
+2 to hit, and -4 to the target's dexterity is a net +4 to hit, not terrible.
Of course if it happens late in the day, you may not have a power point. Or it might be Large (not sure what you would be fighting - maybe an angry Mule? Large Centipede?), so Entangling Ectoplasm won't work. In which case you just run away.

[Tamior]

You are reloading the crossbow and holding the tower shield how?
Basically you start combat with a shield in one hand and crossbow in the other. Depending on the situation, you drop one (free action) and ready the other.


If you initiative is +1, then your crossbowing is +1. That's pathetic.
You don't really have much of a choice at level 1 with 28 point buy, I'm afraid. I mean, you can probably bump it to +2, but that will come at the cost of some other stat.

[Tamior]

Entangle it and shoot it with your longbow (elf, possibly grey), kiting as needed.

You've got 4 power points. Not a lot, but enough.
+2 to hit, and -4 to the target's dexterity is a net +4 to hit, not terrible.
Of course if it happens late in the day, you may not have a power point. Or it might be Large (not sure what you would be fighting - maybe an angry Mule? Large Centipede?), so Entangling Ectoplasm won't work. In which case you just run away.
Entangling Ectoplasm vs Deceleration is actually something I'm not entirety sure about.
You don't really have enough power slots to have both. While getting the target entangled is superior overall, Deceleration has better chance to stick (reflex save at DC 15 is more likely to land than a ranged touch attack at BAB +0, in general), and on top of that Deceleration lasts longer, potentially MUCH longer if you go [talented + over-channel].

[Anthrowhale]

Going into mind thrust range vs goblin — when you have a crossbow — just does not sound right.
Heck, a smart goblin will literally ready a javelin to try and hit you as you attempt to manifest your mind thrust, forcing a concentration check.
And if that goblin makes that 20% save he will just whack you in the face on his action via a charge, likely one-shotting an elf.

I'm used to dungeons where range is not particularly relevant. There, if you run around a corner and ready an action to attack which misses, the goblin gets a chance to attack. In this situation, being able to hit decisively is important.

Skate would be potent for the "run away" strategy except it's standard instead of swift action. An alternative is Speed of Thought which is slightly slower but effectively always on.

Thinking about it more deeply:


Matter agitation seems potent in a boss situation (party distracts while you roast), as a distraction, and in attacking objects.
Psionic Charm seems potent for gathering information and splitting enemies. It ages much better than Charm Person.
For a third power, Vigor (double your hp when you have warning), Skate (run away when you have warning), and Demoralize (fear stack with someone else in your party to create a mass save-or-lose) seem plausible.


Racewise, Elan (Resilience, PP+2, and not-a-human) or Xeph (Darkvision, PP+1, Burst) both seem tempting.

[Malphegor]

honestly it sounds like really low level psions are like wizards then- you have a few good spells effectively, but you can't beat the stopping power of a reliable Burleigh And Stronginthearm- a crossbow might have more reliable ranged damage output for the time being whilst you grow your psionic potential.

[Tamior]

honestly it sounds like really low level psions are like wizards then- you have a few good spells effectively, but you can't beat the stopping power of a reliable Burleigh And Stronginthearm- a crossbow might have more reliable ranged damage output for the time being whilst you grow your psionic potential.
Well, an ability to add +15 to your speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/skate.htm) for minute+ alone can make an otherwise "ok" ranged character effectively unstoppable (or, rather, un-catchable).
And while it might feel like an inferior version of Expeditious Retreat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/expeditiousRetreat.htm), there is a number of important differences. To name a few: psion has no arcane armor penalties AND psion does not need to prepare this, but rather can call it "on demand".
So I still feel there is quite some potential for optimization and shenanigans.

[Tamior]

After some optimization, best builds I've come up with at 28 point buy:

Gray Elven psion: Gray Elf Psion 1 (any type); Medium Humanoid (elf); HD 1d4+1; hp 5; Init +3; Spd 30 ft.; AC 15 (10 +3 dex +2 Leather armor), touch 13, flat-footed 12; Base Atk +0; melee -2, ranged +3 SV Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +3; Str 7, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 8.
Feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Enlarge Power [Metapsionic]
Skills: Concentration 4, + whatever else you like
Powers: 4 pp/day, Skate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/skate.htm), Matter Agitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/matterAgitation.htm), + one more you like (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#firstLevelPsionWilderPowers).
Equipment (75 gp on average): Leather Armor (10gp), Explorer’s outfit (free), Light Crossbow (35 gp) or Shortbow (30), 25 gp for a dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm). 5-10 gp left for utilities and ammunition.
Good stats overall, but most importantly can use Matter Agitation at 55 ft of range, which, combined with some clever use of ready movement actions, can basically keep the power going for 2-3 turns before 30ft speed enemy even gets into melee range.
Swap Enlarge Power [Metapsionic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#enlargePower) for Speed Of Thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#speedOfThought) if you want to go full archery/crossbow build and simply keep your powers for utility and backup.

Human psion: Human Psion 1 (any type); Medium Humanoid (Human); HD 1d4+2; hp 6; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 13 (10 +1 dex +2 Leather armor,), touch 11, flat-footed 12; Base Atk +0; melee -1, ranged +1 SV Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +2; Str 8, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Overchannel, Talented.
Skills: Concentration 4, + whatever else you like
Powers: 4 pp/day, Matter Agitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/matterAgitation.htm), + two more you like (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#firstLevelPsionWilderPowers).
Equipment (75 gp on average): Leather Armor (10gp), Explorer’s outfit (free), Light Crossbow (35 gp), 25 gp for a dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm). 5 gp left for utilities and ammunition.
Can overchannel without taking damage. Thus noticeably better at psionics IF others can protect him/her. Worse than an elf in pretty much every other way.

I've tried making something with Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/elan.htm), but it kind of feels "neither here nor there". I guess it can be an even BETTER "dedicated back-line psion" because of extra PP and an ability to massively boost SV's, but at that point you really-really have to rely on others to keep the monster away.

[gkathellar]

The best thing for a telepath to do at level 1 is to be a shaper.

Seconded. Astral Construct is a big deal.

[Tamior]

Seconded. Astral Construct is a big deal.
It sure is, the problem is, however, that it lasts:
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
So at level one it will last exactly one round.

Edit: Also, manifesting Astral Construct is a full-round action. That comes with all kinds of problems, you instantly becoming a primary target for any intelligent monster being one of them.

[Tamior]

Would you be able to retrain later? I would suggest Psionic Body + two times Psionic Talent for the human psion.. that's a lot of health and power points if you are going to stay level 1 for a long time.
By RAW psions pretty much retrain automatically by reaching level 7. Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm). Afaik few DM's outright ban Psychic Reformation.
The thing is, going Psionic Body + two psionic feats = 6 extra HP, with no clear way to recover them faster than normal.
Going Elan = 2 extra HP per PP you want to spend per day, and Elans start with extra 2 max PP to begin with. And Elans ALSO get pretty juicy boost to SV.

[Anthrowhale]

I've tried making something with Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/elan.htm), but it kind of feels "neither here nor there". I guess it can be an even BETTER "dedicated back-line psion" because of extra PP and an ability to massively boost SV's, but at that point you really-really have to rely on others to keep the monster away.
I'm kind of puzzled by this. Resilience is pretty good, because it means that your effective number of hit points is essentially the nominal number + 2*PP making an Elan Psion 1 beefy like a Barbarian 1. You lack martial weapons and rage, but you can make up for that reasonably well via force screen and psionic weapon.

[Tamior]

I'm kind of puzzled by this. Resilience is pretty good, because it means that your effective number of hit points is essentially the nominal number + 2*PP making an Elan Psion 1 beefy like a Barbarian 1. You lack martial weapons and rage, but you can make up for that reasonably well via force screen and psionic weapon.
Compared to the Elf build above, it still can't do much outside of using psionics (because it has even lower abilities than human). Elf with +3 initiative and +3 ranged and (power-independed) AC 15 can actually be a decent ranged combatant even without taking any powers into account.
Compared to human above, it loses either safe overchannel or psicrystal. Without save overchannel, you have to burn 1 extra PP and action to get vigor up before overchanneling, thus making it almost pointless (you can just use the power TWICE instead of overchanneling at that point). Without psicrystal, you HAVE to rely one others to provide even the most basic support/scouting.
Basically while Elan looks pretty strong in general, I just haven't figure out what exactly an Elan can do that an elf/human can't do better.

P.S. As compared to barbarian, while an Elan can maybe be just as "beefy" by blowing all his PP, he has nowhere near the melee damage/accuracy. Well, unless I'm overlooking something pretty obvious.

[Anthrowhale]

Compared to the Elf build above, it still can't do much outside of using psionics (because it has even lower abilities than human). Elf with +3 initiative and +3 ranged and (power-independed) AC 15 can actually be a decent ranged combatant even without taking any powers into account.

Compare:
Elf: AC 15, Init+3, Ranged+3, damage 4.5, HP 5
Elan: AC 14, Init+2, Ranged+2, damage 4.5, HP 16

The elf has a minor chance of going first and is somewhat better at hitting and not being hit, but the sheer number of hit points that the Elan can bring to bear is impressive. I'm estimating that the Elan wins.

Another thought: What if you take Psionic Shot with Energy Ray? That provides a 3d6+1 ranged touch attack in an encounter.

[Tamior]

Compare:
Elf: AC 15, Init+3, Ranged+3, damage 4.5, HP 5
Elan: AC 14, Init+2, Ranged+2, damage 4.5, HP 16

The elf has a minor chance of going first and is somewhat better at hitting and not being hit, but the sheer number of hit points that the Elan can bring to bear is impressive. I'm estimating that the Elan wins.

Another thought: What if you take Psionic Shot with Energy Ray? That provides a 3d6+1 ranged touch attack in an encounter.
Can you, please, show me the rest of the ability scores for Elan? I'm not sure where you are getting points for 14 dex on an Elan.

[Anthrowhale]

Can you, please, show me the rest of the abilities for Elan? I'm not sure where you are getting points for 14 dex on an Elan.

I was just substituting racial modifiers from your Gray Elf build for an Elan, so: Str 9, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 6.

[Tamior]

I was just substituting racial modifiers from your Gray Elf build for an Elan, so: Str 9, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 6.
Well, that's an Int 16 build. A tiny bit questionable in and of itself.
I mean, human can do the same and get 16 HP for 2 PP by overchanneling the Vigor.
And he will still get 1 PP left after that, unlike Elan. One PP he can still overchannel safely.

[Particle_Man]

Bluff is a class skill. Don’t be too proud to try bluffing and hiding if you have to.

[Anthrowhale]

I mean, human can do the same and get 16 HP for 2 PP by overchanneling the Vigor.
And he will still get 1 PP left after that, unlike Elan.

Vigor is a good power, but it costs a standard action and only lasts for minutes. With a standard 4 encounters/day, the human can spend only 1 PP/encounter on vigor and wastes the first round for every encounter without a controlled start.

The Elan running into the same 4 encounters gets to attack immediately in every encounter and only expends PP as hit points when actually hit.

[Tamior]

Vigor is a good power, but it costs a standard action and only lasts for minutes. With a standard 4 encounters/day, the human can spend only 1 PP/encounter on vigor and wastes the first round for every encounter without a controlled start.

The Elan running into the same 4 encounters gets to attack immediately in every encounter and only expends PP as hit points when actually hit.
I agree that Elan is more flexible in his surviveability in general.
But that really brings us back to the question of what the Elan is actually doing in those encounters for offense.

[Anthrowhale]

I agree that Elan is more flexible in his surviveability in general.
But that really brings us back to the question of what the Elan is actually doing in those encounters for offense.

I think you are generally trading a little bit of offense for a substantially better defense. That's a reasonable tradeoff at level 1.

As far as offense, the baseline here is using a light crossbow. Adding on Point Blank shot and Psionic shot means you are doing an expected 11.5 damage (12.5 in 30') if you hit with your first attack.

If you instead use Energy ray.... Energy ray does an extra 1 damage per dice and psionic shot deals an extra 2 dice of damage, so it seems you are looking at an expected 13.5 damage (14.5 in 30') if you hit on the first attack as a ranged touch attack for the expenditure of 1PP.

And of course you can use a Will SoL power for 1PP.

[Tamior]

I think you are generally trading a little bit of offense for a substantially better defense. That's a reasonable tradeoff at level 1.

As far as offense, the baseline here is using a light crossbow. Adding on Point Blank shot and Psionic shot means you are doing an expected 11.5 damage (12.5 in 30') if you hit with your first attack.

If you instead use Energy ray.... Energy ray does an extra 1 damage per dice and psionic shot deals an extra 2 dice of damage, so it seems you are looking at an expected 13.5 damage (14.5 in 30') if you hit on the first attack as a ranged touch attack for the expenditure of 1PP.

Point Blank shot + Psionic shot give you a HUGE damage boost, but you lose your psicrystal, thus loosing an ability to scout ahead (psicrystal is amazing for that with super-high hide bonus from size, high Move Silently, perfect "vision" in complete darkness and ability to ignore ALL attacks that deal below 8 point of damage on normal hit).
In your average low-level dungeon I'd say a Diminutive scout is "game-breaking good", while Psionic shot simply allows you to one-shot things more reliably.




And of course you can use a Will SoL power for 1PP.
Will SoL at lvl 1? Not sure what that would be.

[tyckspoon]

Will SoL at lvl 1? Not sure what that would be.

Disable is the only power I can find that meets the requirement. It's not bad, for a 1st level power, but I don't know if it's good enough that I'd actually want to spend a power known selection on it over something with better scaling and usage at later levels. There's just too many ways out of it written into it to rely on it. Maybe Psionic Charm, depending on how you play charm effects, but you have to be a Telepath for that one.

[Anthrowhale]

In your average low-level dungeon I'd say a Diminutive scout is "game-breaking good", while Psionic shot simply allows you to one-shot things more reliably.

It is pretty good.

There is a bit of a question of party roles here. If your party role to cover is scout, then a psicrystal seems excellent. If someone else is covering that role, then perhaps alternative uses are desirable.

Will SoL at lvl 1? Not sure what that would be.
As Tyckspoon says, Disable seems nice for the Disabled condition.

I still think Demoralize is nice if there is another party member that can fear stack with you. For example, someone with a good Intimidate can make a Demoralize victim flee. Similarly, Cause Fear become a no-save-just-lose for a victim of Demoralize. You need team work to really use this effectively.

And yes, Psionic Charm is also potent.

[Particle_Man]

While teamwork is important the OP was worried about what to do when separated from the team.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psicrystal Affinity is very, very, very close to being the most versatile feat in the game. VERY close. And that's without considering what feats it could take of its own.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147603-Best-things-to-do-with-a-psicrystal (And that's just a few of the things they can do.)

[Anthrowhale]

Psicrystal Affinity is very, very, very close to being the most versatile feat in the game. VERY close. And that's without considering what feats it could take of its own.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147603-Best-things-to-do-with-a-psicrystal (And that's just a few of the things they can do.)

I agree, Psicrystal affinity does seem quite good. The only substantial drawback I see w.r.t. a familiar/animal companion/mount is that there is no built-in recovery mechanic if it is destroyed.

This seems to leave the Elan with only a crossbow, matter agitation, and will save attacks. All of these are 5% worse than the Gray Elf so there is an inherent tradeoff between offense and defense.

[Tamior]

I agree, Psicrystal affinity does seem quite good. The only substantial drawback I see w.r.t. a familiar/animal companion/mount is that there is no built-in recovery mechanic if it is destroyed.
There is in pathfinder: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/feats/psicrystal-affinity-psionic
It doubt it would be too hard to persuade most DM's to use something similar, if not the same.



This seems to leave the Elan with only a crossbow, matter agitation, and will save attacks. All of these are 5% worse than the Gray Elf so there is an inherent tradeoff between offense and defense.
I guess the final call between "Elan vs Elf" would very much depend on the nature of the exact campaign/setting. I mean, gray elves are still a "normal" race most DM's wouldn't think twice about. Elan is literally an aberration in disguise. Then again elves racial bonuses might come in extra-handy depending on the party composition. Etc.
One other thing to consider is that Elan can go constitution 10 (or even 8) within too much problems. At least that's not an instant suicide for an Elan.

[Tamior]

Ok, so I guess a pretty good flexible build for Elan would look something like this:

Elan psion: Elan Psion 1 (telepath); Medium Abberation (Psionic); HD 1d4+0; hp 4; Init +1; Spd 30 ft. (40 ft with psionic focus); AC 13 (10 +1 dex +2 Leather armor), touch 11, flat-footed 12; Base Atk +0; melee -1, ranged +1 SV Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +3; Str 9, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 6.
Feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Speed Of Thought
Skills: Concentration 4, + whatever else you like
Powers: 6 pp/day, Matter Agitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/matterAgitation.htm), Charm, Psionic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/charmPsionic.htm), Disable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/disable.htm).
Equipment (75 gp on average): Leather Armor (10gp), Explorer’s outfit (free), Light Crossbow (35 gp), 25 gp for a dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm). 5 gp left for utilities and ammunition.
With 40 ft speed, very few low-level things can actually catch up to you.
Charm, Psionic is as amazing as ever.
For anything with a mind, disable will provide at least a safety buffer. Fun fact: it's an emanation with DURATION. So even at level 1 enemies will keep making saves once per turn for the whole minute. So that's 10X Will kind-of-SoL saves for the low-low price of one PP.
Matter Agitation + dog + your psicrystal pouring oil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#oil) on the ground under the target for mindless stuff.
With Str 9 you can go for heavier armor and/or a shield if you get a few extra coins.

[Troacctid]

Elan also has very good racial feats. Enhanced Elan Resilience in particular stands out for essentially giving you full-on Vigor as an immediate action, but Elan Retainment is also great at higher levels once you have Linked Power.

[Tamior]

Elan also has very good racial feats. Enhanced Elan Resilience in particular stands out for essentially giving you full-on Vigor as an immediate action, but Elan Retainment is also great at higher levels once you have Linked Power.
Yea, I agree that whoever wrote complete psionics had very peculiar, shall we say, ideas about how things should be balanced and what should and shouldn't be allowed. All the more reason to simply ban the whole book and stick to expanded psionics only.

[Troacctid]

Excuse me, that book added plenty of cool and interesting classes, feats, powers, and races, and maybe one overpowered feat, tyvm.

[Tamior]

Excuse me, that book added plenty of cool and interesting classes, feats, powers, and races, and maybe one overpowered feat, tyvm.
Well, it's a matter of personal preference, I guess.
For me complete psionics is really, really not balanced well.
Like, why synchronicity is even a thing is beyond me (it's an instant infinite loophole even without "linked power").
What was the reason behind astral construct nerf (other than to make the included PrC's viable)? Etc, etc.
Sure you can probably proofread it to separate the wheat from the chaff, but at that point your are basically using it as an inspirational base for 101 house rule.

P.S. Actually, as a source of ideas for house rules, complete psionic is quite good. I dislike the RAW balance (lack thereof) of that book.

[Troacctid]

Well, it's a matter of personal preference, I guess.
For me complete psionics is really, really not balanced well.
Like, why synchronicity is even a thing is beyond me (it's an instant infinite loophole even without "linked power").
What was the reason behind astral contract nerf (other than to make the included PrC's viable)? Etc, etc.
Sure you can probably proofread it to separate the wheat from the chaff, but at that point your are basically using it as an inspirational base for 101 house rule.
You are seriously exaggerating. If you ban Linked Power and ignore obvious typos, you've just fixed the whole book in like two seconds. Synchronicity is totally fine. Astral Construct is still arguably the strongest 1st level power in the game even with the nerf. Meanwhile, all the new material adds a substantial amount of depth to the subsystem. I would legit ban Complete Warrior before Complete Psionic, no joke.

[Tamior]

You are seriously exaggerating. If you ban Linked Power and ignore obvious typos, you've just fixed the whole book in like two seconds. Synchronicity is totally fine.

How is Synchronicity not infinite standard actions for the psicrytal (via Share Powers) for 1 pp per action?


Astral Construct is still arguably the strongest 1st level power in the game even with the nerf.
Why was the nerf necessary/justified exactly? Similar spells (summon moster X, etc) don't have any such restrictions.


Meanwhile, all the new material adds a substantial amount of depth to the subsystem. I would legit ban Complete Warrior before Complete Psionic, no joke.
Can't comment here, never studied complete warrior in-depth enough.

[Godskook]

A level 1 character with d4 HD, a racial CON penalty, and shockingly few point-buy points left after buying up your recommended preracial 18 INT should NOT be dealing themselves d8 damage, which is what Overchannel will do.

Decent strategy at level 3-5 (scaled up appropriately), but TERRIBLE advice at level 1. Especially if survival is a concern.

Having Talented at level 1 is quite reasonable for a Psion, and solves your concern. I'd assume he was assuming that in his advice.

[Troacctid]

How is Synchronicity not infinite standard actions for the psicrytal (via Share Powers) for 1 pp per action?
First off, that's not infinite standard actions, it's just a lot of standard actions. Second, synchronicity is clearly the fairer half of that combo, so really if anything you should be complaining about XPH. Sharing powers with your psicrystal was plenty busted before CPs came along, let's be real. And third, unintended interactions between different game elements are inevitable in a game as complex as D&D; just because a combo is broken doesn't mean the individual pieces are.

Complete Psionic has one feat (Linked Power) that I would consider broken, one prestige class (Anarchic Initiate) that I would consider a little overpowered but not broken, and I think that's about it. It's certainly in the bottom 25% for editing, but as far as balance goes, I think it's actually above the median.


Why was the nerf necessary/justified exactly? Similar spells (summon moster X, etc) don't have any such restrictions.
Unnecessary isn't the same as unbalanced. It wasn't necessary, but it wasn't problematic either.

[Tamior]

First off, that's not infinite standard actions, it's just a lot of standard actions. Second, synchronicity is clearly the fairer half of that combo, so really if anything you should be complaining about XPH. Sharing powers with your psicrystal was plenty busted before CPs came along, let's be real.

What exactly was made instantly broken (to the same level as synchronicity) in Expanded Psionics Handbook if you share it with psicrystal?


And third, unintended interactions between different game elements are inevitable in a game as complex as D&D; just because a combo is broken doesn't mean the individual pieces are.

I would 100% agree with you if it was an interaction with some obscure feature from obscure source. But psicrystal is as core to psion as it gets to be. Not accounting for it is like not accounting for the fact clerics can cast cure spells.



Complete Psionic has one feat (Linked Power) that I would consider broken, one prestige class (Anarchic Initiate) that I would consider a little overpowered but not broken, and I think that's about it. It's certainly in the bottom 25% for editing, but as far as balance goes, I think it's actually above the median.

My baseline for Complete Psionic is Expanded Psionics Handbook. And Complete Psionic sure as hell is less well-balanced than Expanded Psionics Handbook.
I guess at this point it really burns down to what your personally prefer: a more balanced game with less content, or a less balanced with more.


Unnecessary isn't the same as unbalanced. It wasn't necessary, but it wasn't problematic either.
Well, for me nerfing the main power of a class (shaper) for no good reason reeks pretty strongly of bad balancing.

[Troacctid]

What exactly was made instantly broken (to the same level as synchronicity) in Expanded Psionics Handbook if you share it with psicrystal?
Metamorphosis is pretty hot. Psicrystals can also do some stuff with feats, including Leadership, potentially attracting cohorts who are higher level then you are if combined with Improved Psicrystal.


Well, for me nerfing the main power of a class (shaper) for no good reason reeks pretty strongly of bad balancing.
I mean...again, arguably the best 1st level power in the game even after the nerf. Also, the gameplay of multiple summons is not super great.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Metamorphosis is pretty hot. Psicrystals can also do some stuff with feats, including Leadership, potentially attracting cohorts who are higher level then you are if combined with Improved Psicrystal.Feats are a function of HD, not psicrystal granted abilities. Improved Psicrystal grants improved psicrystal granted abilities, not HD.

Of course, technically it doesn't work at all for that, since PGAs aren't a function of manifester level, but whatever.

[Tamior]

Metamorphosis is pretty hot.
Sharing it with psi-crystal hardly enables you to do anything you can't do otherwise.
And it's effectively Polymorph nerfed for personal/psicrystal use only.
Polymorph always has been broken. If anything, EPH makes it less broken by restricting it to personal and making it a discipline power.


Psicrystals can also do some stuff with feats, including Leadership, potentially attracting cohorts who are higher level then you are if combined with Improved Psicrystal.
Psicrystal gaining feats is well in the gray area of rules. Most tables house-rule one way or the other.
I mean, if we want to talk broken in EPH, Thrallherd with Thralls with their own Thralls is waaay more hilarious (and clearly within RAW) than psicrystal feats shenanigans ever would be.



I mean...again, arguably the best 1st level power in the game even after the nerf. Also, the gameplay of multiple summons is not super great.
What do you mean by "best 1st level power"?
Best at level 1? No, it's not.
Best by the time you can augment it properly? By that time it's effectively no lower a level 1 power.

[Tamior]

Speaking of low level psions. Let's say you own a normal (25 gp) dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm).

Can anyone think of a reason why psicrystal can't use it's actions to use handle animal to control that dog?

Basically you can assign your psicrystal to travel with the dog and said psicrystal will get up to two handle animal skill check per round, right?

Moreover, I think psicrystal can even TRAIN the dog if you have ranks in handle animal?

[RoboEmperor]

Speaking of low level psions. Let's say you own a normal (25 gp) dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm).

Whether a psicrystal can use handle animal or not is irrelevant. The dogs are purchased trained. Making them do the "Defend" trick is a DC10 check you can just take 10 on. Once the dog is defending you, it will automatically attack anything it perceives as a threat to you. So at the start of the day spend 6 seconds ordering it to defend you and go about your day.

I can't answer whether psicrystals can do handle animal checks though so you'll have to ask someone else.

[Tamior]

Whether a psicrystal can use handle animal or not is irrelevant. The dogs are purchased trained. Making them do the "Defend" trick is a DC10 check you can just take 10 on. Once the dog is defending you, it will automatically attack anything it perceives as a threat to you. So at the start of the day spend 6 seconds ordering it to defend you and go about your day.

Well, it's quite likely you might want to give an animal a different order once already in combat (at least every so often). And doing that without spending actions is just amazing.
Not to mention the fact a character with no ranks in handle animal and low charisma (below 10) might not be able to beat DC 10 by taking 10, while psicrystal has default charisma bonus of +0, so it should be just fine.

[Psyren]

1) Assuming you don't care about your attack bonus much, is there any way to boost your AC outside of "just use the armor and shield with highest AC bonus you can afford"? Both Force Screen and Inertial Armor seems pretty moot when you can just have tower shield + chain shirt for the same bonus. Obviously, there are precognition-type powers, but they seem to be pretty bad "bang for the buck".

Casters don't typically stay at level 1 for long, and those that do definitely don't get into a lot of fights on their own. If yours is doing both, you'll have your work cut out for you, and armor is a necessity. I would even consider picking up light armor/shield proficiency and just reforming/retraining it away later. Your build won't matter much if you're a corpse after all.



2) Are there any tricks that would allow you to reliably disengage from combat other than simply having higher speed and/or using "Deceleration" power? Speaking of effective speed, anything other than "Skate" power and "Speed of thought" feat you can realistically get at lvl 1 to boost it?

Other powers you might want to consider are Compression (move at full speed, harder to hit, squeeze through gaps) and Entangling Ectoplasm (no save just suck for half a minute, turns off charging, can even immobilize completely.) The former is useful outside of combat too, while the latter can be used offensively to debuff enemies so your archers or tanks (or you) have an easier time with keeping them at bay.



3) Matter Agitation seems like the absolute best (if somewhat slow-acting) attack power as it requires neither a touch attack nor allows for saving throw, but maybe I'm missing something here?

You're not, that's the best one at level 1. It's also gives great DPM, letting you conserve your resources while still contributing to combat. The downside is the amount of time it takes for the damage to kick in, but if you took EE you should be able to lock a target down for a few rounds (or kite it) and take on most threats 1v1.

Later on, Control Flames fills a similar niche while giving you AoE - handy against swarms. But at level 1, MA is superior. And of course, you'll want to reform/retrain both of them later on.



4) All other attack powers seems to be both close range AND rely on touch attack and/or allow for ST. Why exactly would you chose those at lvl 1 over simply firing a crossbow?

Generally you wouldn't. The more notable exceptions are above.



5) Any Control Light shenanigans you can think of other than just using it to cover your escape or to boost your hide checks?

You can use it to blind light-sensitive creatures, but that's pretty niche.



6) Any Control Flames shenanigans you can think of (at psion level 1)?

None at level 1.



7) What's the most efficient way to use a normal dog to prevent a melee enemy that is trying to attack you from attacking you? Just positing it between the two of you and fish for AoO's?

Entangle the target as mentioned above. The dog won't mind.



8) Any specific tactics to prevent melee opponents from engaging you other than just keeping your distance (some readied action tricks or some less-than-obvious positioning tricks)?

Entangle.



9) Any psicrystal shenanigans available at level 1? Strapping an open bottle of oil to it and making it run and hug the target you are about to set on fire via matter agitation?

You'll want to figure out your GM's rules for replacing a psicrystal before using it in combat. If they're strict about it, keep it in your pocket during a fight.



10) Any other cool tactic you can think of for a lvl 1 psion?

Entangle :smalltongue:

[Tamior]

Basically, the reason I'm a bit dubious about Entangling Ectoplasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/entanglingEctoplasm.htm)'s potential at level 1 is that it's not clear what kind of target would warrant it.
Pretty much anything slow(-ish) you can outrun and bring down with a crossbow.
Pretty much anything quick will likely have good enough touch AC to make you miss that Entangling Ectoplasm attack more than half of the time. And with that being the case you might as well just activate your matter agitation right away and at least put an enemy on a timer.

And then you have to consider you only have 3 powers.
Matter Agitation being one of them, you are left with two.
Disable has absolutely amazing value vs anything non-mindless and is also pretty much the only power that can help you vs multiple targets. So that leaves us with one power left.
And psionic charm just feels too good to miss.

Well, unless you somehow know you will be fighting mindless stuff almost exclusively. Then Entangling Ectoplasm is probably one of the better options.

[Psyren]

Pretty much anything slow(-ish) you can outrun and bring down with a crossbow.

Not necessarily. For you, a single move action gets you 30 ft., then you need to cast or shoot. For them, they can charge 60ft and attack you, followed by hitting you again when you try to move away. Not a good combination, and that's before you even consider that you also need at least a move action to reload unless you burned your feat on that. (You're much better off using it on Hidden Talent, fyi.)



Pretty much anything quick will likely have good enough touch AC to make you miss that Entangling Ectoplasm attack more than half of the time.

More than half? Are you fighting pixies or something? I need fewer hypotheticals here, what kind of level 1 foe do you consider to be "anything quick" that would cause that kind of miss chance? Or are you rolling with 10 Dex?



And then you have to consider you only have 3 powers.
Matter Agitation being one of them, you are left with two.
Disable has absolutely amazing value vs anything non-mindless and is also pretty much the only power that can help you vs multiple targets. So that leaves us with one power left.
And psionic charm just feels too good to miss.

Well, unless you somehow know you will be fighting mindless stuff almost exclusively. Then Entangling Ectoplasm is probably one of the better options.

As you yourself mentioned, there's a lot of creature types that render Disable and Charm useless. I would personally only go with one of the two, and it would probably be Charm.

[Tamior]

Not necessarily. For you, a single move action gets you 30 ft., then you need to cast or shoot. For them, they can charge 60ft and attack you, followed by hitting you again when you try to move away. Not a good combination, and that's before you even consider that you also need at least a move action to reload unless you burned your feat on that. (You're much better off using it on Hidden Talent, fyi.)

"Slow" in this context means "move speed below mine". Which for a psion with speed of thought feat is 40 ft. Just use withdraw action and disengage. There is no way (I can think of) for them to catch up to you.



More than half? Are you fighting pixies or something? I need fewer hypotheticals here, what kind of level 1 foe do you consider to be "anything quick" that would cause that kind of miss chance? Or are you rolling with 10 Dex?

Pretty much everything with CR <2 and speed >35 has at least AC 12 vs ranged touch. Wolves/wolf skeles, dogs, birds, homunculus, etc.



As you yourself mentioned, there's a lot of creature types that render Disable and Charm useless. I would personally only go with one of the two, and it would probably be Charm.
Well, yes and no. What creature types of those can be expected at CR <2? Undead? And what CR <2 undead would you entangle rather than just start trying to roast with matter agitation?

[Tamior]

Going back to the topic of animals:

As far as I can tell, for 20 GP you can get a leather armor for your dog and give it an extra +2AC with no drawback. Am I missing something here?

Also, RAW, what do you need to allow your dog (small) to carry stuff for you? "Pack saddle" for 5 gp for a small creature?

[RoboEmperor]

Going back to the topic of animals:

As far as I can tell, for 20 GP you can get a leather armor for your dog and give it an extra +2AC with no drawback. Am I missing something here?

Also, RAW, what do you need to allow your dog (small) to carry stuff for you? "Pack saddle" for 5 gp for a small creature?

Nope. 20gp is correct. x2 for unusual small creatures. Please note that with 20gp you could probably get a 2nd dog which costs only 25gp, which would probably be better.

Pack Saddle seems correct. I can't seem to locate anything about the 5gp increasing/decreasing due to size.

[Tamior]

Nope. 20gp is correct. x2 for unusual small creatures. Please note that with 20gp you could probably get a 2nd dog which costs only 25gp, which would probably be better.
Ah, yes.
I seem to recall that someone made a pretty convincing argument that the deadliest level 1 character is a wizard who sold his spellbook to buy more dogs.:smallamused:

[Psyren]

"Slow" in this context means "move speed below mine". Which for a psion with speed of thought feat is 40 ft. Just use withdraw action and disengage. There is no way (I can think of) for them to catch up to you.

Withdraw is a full-round action, so now you're reduced to attacking/casting every other round, and you'll want a fairly large battlefield to keep doing it.

How many feats are you getting at 1st level? What race are you? Using flaws? Also, what's "disengage?" I know of that term from 5e, but not 3e.


Pretty much everything with CR <2 and speed >35 has at least AC 12 vs ranged touch. Wolves/wolf skeles, dogs, birds, homunculus, etc.

So you have 12 dex then? (Going back to my last question.) Plus the 13 Wis for Speed of Thought I assume.

I think it's shortsighted also to only worry about things with 35ft., unless you're planning for all your combats to take place on wide open grassy knolls.


Well, yes and no. What creature types of those can be expected at CR <2? Undead? And what CR <2 undead would you entangle rather than just start trying to roast with matter agitation?

I'm advocating both - if they're gummed up for 5 rounds, you'll have a lot more time to agitate them. This is especially useful if you're up against more than one foe at a time. Play keep-away until they're both snared/rooted, then do your slow burn.

[RoboEmperor]

Ah, yes.
I seem to recall that someone made a pretty convincing argument that the deadliest level 1 character is a wizard who sold his spellbook to buy more dogs.:smallamused:

I don't know about that wizard but my cleric sold her armor for guard dogs. She kept her tower shield though so she's not a pincushion against archers.

[Tamior]

Withdraw is a full-round action, so now you're reduced to attacking/casting every other round, and you'll want a fairly large battlefield to keep doing it.
This brings up the rather obvious question of what exactly are you fighting that you can't arrange for the fight to go "outside".
Goblins/Orc/Etc? Charm one of them and make him/her lure the others outside.
Some mindless stuff? It will follow you outside naturally.
Normal animals/vermin? With those you are under absolutely no pressure to finish things quickly, it's not like the rats will get "reinforcements" from the other sewer if you don't finish them right away.



How many feats are you getting at 1st level? What race are you? Using flaws? Also, what's "disengage?" I know of that term from 5e, but not 3e.
One default + one from being psion 1.
Race = Elan.
No flaws.
Disengage is just a non-game term for moving outside of melee/charge range.




So you have 12 dex then? (Going back to my last question.) Plus the 13 Wis for Speed of Thought I assume.
Yep.
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 6 (point buy at 28 is a rough mistress)



I think it's shortsighted also to only worry about things with 35ft., unless you're planning for all your combats to take place on wide open grassy knolls.
See above. Even if the combat STARTS in a "dungeon", there is no reason to keep it there if that's not beneficial to you.

[Psyren]

This brings up the rather obvious question of what exactly are you fighting that you can't arrange for the fight to go "outside".
...
See above. Even if the combat STARTS in a "dungeon", there is no reason to keep it there if that's not beneficial to you.

"Going outside" isn't always practical. You can end up in an actual dungeon at level 1, or a sewer or cave. And even outside you can have limited mobility, like forests, swamps, urban environs with narrow streets...

At the end of the day it's your campaign/character - I'm just providing the advice you asked for.



One default + one from being psion 1.
Race = Elan.
No flaws.
Disengage is just a non-game term for moving outside of melee/charge range.

Okay. Speed of Thought and...?



Yep.
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 6 (point buy at 28 is a rough mistress)

I would absolutely drop the Int to 16 to shore up your Con and Dex, especially since you plan to be alone and level 1 for a long time. 4HP even with the Elan racials is not a lot, a single arrow or javelin can end your career on a lucky roll.

[Tamior]

"Going outside" isn't always practical. You can end up in an actual dungeon at level 1, or a sewer or cave. And even outside you can have limited mobility, like forests, swamps, urban environs with narrow streets...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but limited mobility will likely effect both you and your enemies (assuming enemies are the usual CR<2 stuff) in the same way. So you can still outrun them if your speed is higher.
The only exception here would be flier, but those are obviously a prime target for round one matter agitation as their HP are usually abysmally low.


At the end of the day it's your campaign/character - I'm just providing the advice you asked for.

And I really appreciate it, don't get me wrong. I'm just trying to see if there are any glaring holes in my logic (my logic being "things below your speed shouldn't be an issue as you can outrun them instead of entangling them").



Okay. Speed of Thought and...?

Psicrystal Affinity.



I would absolutely drop the Int to 16 to shore up your Con and Dex, especially since you plan to be alone and level 1 for a long time. 4HP even with the Elan racials is not a lot, a single arrow or javelin can end your career on a lucky roll.
Going to Int 16 will get me one lower PP, one lower PP = 2 less effective HP (because Elan). More or less the same 2 HP I would be getting from con 14.
And I'm not convinced a point of Dexterity modifier (AC, initiative and ranged attack) is worth the loss of a point of Intelligence modifier (SV DC's for my powers).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If I were stuck as a level 1 psion for a long time, I'd go shaper (as previously mentioned), take a psicrystal with Hidden Talent (psionic minor creation) as its feat, and make use of poisoned arrows via Craft (Poison/Alchemy). But not just any arrows. Dye arrows. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-dye/) Then I could eat the -4 nonproficiency penalty for a bow but make ranged touch attacks to deliver whatever contact poison I had in mind.

Doesn't help against animated objects (constructs) or skellies and zombies (undead), but against everything else, it could be absolutely devastating.

And if I started as a warforged (eventuating to a dragonborn warforged, eventually), I'd even be immune to poison. I'd grab some aurorum spell/power-storing dye arrows later on so I could deliver powers on friends and foes alike, which could be very useful for (de)buffing and healing. Spellcasting hirelings, ahoy!

[Tamior]

If I were stuck as a level 1 psion for a long time, I'd go shaper (as previously mentioned), take a psicrystal with Hidden Talent (psionic minor creation) as its feat, and make use of poisoned arrows via Craft (Poison/Alchemy). But not just any arrows. Dye arrows. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-dye/) Then I could eat the -4 nonproficiency penalty for a bow but make ranged touch attacks to deliver whatever contact poison I had in mind.

Doesn't help against animated objects (constructs) or skellies and zombies (undead), but against everything else, it could be absolutely devastating.

And if I started as a warforged (eventuating to a dragonborn warforged, eventually), I'd even be immune to poison. I'd grab some aurorum spell/power-storing dye arrows later on so I could deliver powers on friends and foes alike, which could be very useful for (de)buffing and healing. Spellcasting hirelings, ahoy!
Hidden talent is a non-standard version of the Wild Talent ("intended for use in high-psionics campaigns"), so it's not available "by default".
Psicrystals being able to not only GAIN feats, but also to REPLACE it's first-level feat with anything you like is also very much a non-default reading of the rules.
At this point (i.e. your DM is ok with both) you might as well give your psicrystal matter agitation and turn it into "1+1d4+8d6 no SV no attack roll fire damage" shtick . Hardness 8 makes it immune to more-or-less EVERYTHING at lvl 1, so maintaining the spell for 10 turns shouldn't be an issue at all.

Dye arrows working for contact poisons is also completely up to DM. (One can argue that if you only beat touch AC, but not armor AC by dye arrow, your contact poison got smeared all over the armor without actually touching the body.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hidden talent is a non-standard version of the Wild Talent ("intended for use in high-psionics campaigns"), so it's not available "by default".I'd give you that, though I have yet to have a DM that accepted psionics to begin with that hasn't allowed it.


Psicrystals being able to not only GAIN feats, but also to REPLACE it's first-level feat with anything you like is also very much a non-default reading of the rules.What's non-standard about intelligent (ie, non-mindless) creatures gaining HD-based feats? The psicrystal even gains one in its stat entry.


At this point (i.e. your DM is ok with both) you might as well give your psicrystal matter agitation and turn it into "1+1d4+8d6 no SV no attack roll fire damage" shtick . Hardness 8 makes it immune to more-or-less EVERYTHING at lvl 1, so maintaining the spell for 10 turns shouldn't be an issue at all.This is a point.


Dye arrows working for contact poisons is also completely up to DM. (One can argue that if you only beat touch AC, but not armor AC by dye arrow, your contact poison got smeared all over the armor without actually touching the body.)Everything is up to the DM, honestly. And contact poisons work on touch attacks, just like many alchemical substances. I don't see why firing an arrow designed to hold some in an orb on the end that splatters on contact would be any less effective than just hurling a water balloon-ful at someone.

[Psyren]

Psicrystal Affinity.

So no Rapid Reload or Improved Initiative?

A psicrystal is useful but I don't know if it contributes quite as directly to your survival that it's the best choice here. I would probably argue for the Hidden Talent recommended above instead.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but limited mobility will likely effect both you and your enemies (assuming enemies are the usual CR<2 stuff) in the same way. So you can still outrun them if your speed is higher.

By "limited mobility" I don't mean difficult terrain. I mean you might simply not have the space available to do this kiting spree that you plan on doing due to tight quarters or multiple foes. That will absolutely affect you and your enemies differently if they are melee and you're not, because space doesn't matter to a melee opponent. (Though it's worth pointing out that some low-level foes are indeed affected by some terrain types differently, like Giant Spiders on webs.)

You also haven't really addressed the fact that you don't have Rapid Reload (so even a light crossbow is going to need a move action) and that you can't Withdraw while concentrating on your MA if they catch up to you.



And I really appreciate it, don't get me wrong. I'm just trying to see if there are any glaring holes in my logic (my logic being "things below your speed shouldn't be an issue as you can outrun them instead of entangling them").

There are two key issues:

1) You can only outrun them if the engagement allows (terrain, opponents.) Planning for that will keep you alive. Assuming every fight will be on a featureless plain with full awareness is how low-level characters end up dead.

2) Your primary methods of attack are single-target, and cut into your ability to run - drastically in some cases.



Going to Int 16 will get me one lower PP, one lower PP = 2 less effective HP (because Elan). More or less the same 2 HP I would be getting from con 14.
And I'm not convinced a point of Dexterity modifier (AC, initiative and ranged attack) is worth the loss of a point of Intelligence modifier (SV DC's for my powers).

Dex is king, especially early on. Initiative, Reflex, AC, touch attack, it's all worthwhile. I personally wouldn't go below 14.

Yes, for Elans PP can become effective HP. But now you're cutting into your offense to stay alive instead of staying alive passively. It also boosts both your health and fort save, whereas the Elan racial makes you choose one at a time.

[Tamior]

What's non-standard about intelligent (ie, non-mindless] creatures gaining HD-based feats? The psicrystal even gains one in its stat entry.

The fact that this is creature does not advance independently by gaining it's own XP, by rather by piggybacking with it's master.
It will be completely within RAW to rule that such creatures only get things that are explicitly mentioned (and that alertness is there because it's a racial feat, not a normal level 1 feat).



Everything is up to the DM, honestly. And contact poisons work on touch attacks, just like many alchemical substances. I don't see why firing an arrow designed to hold some in an orb on the end that splatter on contact would be any less effective than just hurling a water balloon-ful at someone.
Since this isn't mentioned explicitly, it's in the gray area.
Also,

A character has a 5% chance of exposing himself to a poison whenever he applies it to a weapon or otherwise readies it for use. Additionally, a character who rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with a poisoned weapon must make a DC 15 Reflex save or accidentally poison himself with the weapon.
So the better your poison, the more likely it's to backfire horribly.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The fact that this is creature does not advance independently by gaining it's own XP, by rather by piggybacking with it's master. EVERY creature with an Int score gains feats with its HD unless it's stated otherwise in the stat block. Psicrystals do not have an exception, and even have a feat in their stat block for level 1.


It will be completely within RAW to rule that such creatures only get things that are explicitly mentioned (and that alertness is there because it's a racial feat, not a normal level 1 feat).The only RAW is Rule 0, but that applies to everything.

And no, it's a HD-based feat, else it would have a [B] by it, which it does not. And it's not a psicrystal granted ability, either, because that Alertness is granted to the master, not to the psicrystal. Ergo, it's a normal HD-based feat.


Since this isn't mentioned explicitly, it's in the gray area.Nope. Not even close. RAW says all creatures with Int scores gain feats based on their HD, the only exceptions being those that explicitly state that they are exceptions (which is the same with everything else in the game). Psicrystals explicitly gain HD. Doesn't matter how it gains those HD, whether through its master's level (psicrystal), its own XP total (PCs), HD based on aging (dragons), or something else.

I mean, look at druids and their animal companions. ACs gain HD based on their master's level much like psicrystals do, and they gain HD-based feats just fine.

There are no exceptions for psicrystals anywhere in the text (at least for feats), so they default to the normal HD rules.


So the better your poison, the more likely it's to backfire horribly.Why do you think I mentioned being a warforged?

[Troacctid]

So no Rapid Reload or Improved Initiative?

A psicrystal is useful but I don't know if it contributes quite as directly to your survival that it's the best choice here. I would probably argue for the Hidden Talent recommended above instead.
A nimble psicrystal does give +2 initiative, which is pretty nice. Also, if it's with the psion bonus feat, then Rapid Reload and Improved Initiative aren't even valid options.

[Tamior]

So no Rapid Reload or Improved Initiative?

A psicrystal is useful but I don't know if it contributes quite as directly to your survival that it's the best choice here. I would probably argue for the Hidden Talent recommended above instead.


Psicrystal is the thing that goes into the dungeon before you do and scouts it ahead (it's a scout with a minimum of + 14 to hide, perfect vision in the absence of light and an ability to simply pretend to be a normal rock if things start to get too heated). Most undead will simply ignore Psicrystal to boot, and undead are pretty much the only thing you can't disable with will SV.
Psicrystal is also directing your dogs while you are busy doing something else. Psicrystal keeps watch when you sleep. Psicrystal carries a bottle of oil to the target (to make your matter agitation extra juicy). Psicrytal can make heal check to stabilize allies. Etc, etc. And that's BEFORE we go into the "psicrystals gain their own feats" territory.

Assuming fair play by DM, psicrystal will keep you informed of 95%+ of things that might wait for you in those confined placed (where simply running away is not an option), making initiative rolls often irrelevant.

Heck, I'd say that (unless DM is railroading pretty heavy) the main threat to lvl 1 char survival is going somewhere unprepared and getting a face full of surprises. Psicrytal pretty much eliminates that threat.


By "limited mobility" I don't mean difficult terrain. I mean you might simply not have the space available to do this kiting spree that you plan on doing due to tight quarters or multiple foes.
See above.
With psicrystal scouting, you are pretty unlikely to ever end up in an ambush in a dungeon (unless DM simply leads you into one via fiat).



You also haven't really addressed the fact that you don't have Rapid Reload (so even a light crossbow is going to need a move action)
If I can keep my distance indefinitely, why does it even matter if it takes an extra turn to get ready to fire the crossbow?


and that you can't Withdraw while concentrating on your MA if they catch up to you.
It's one or the other. If you go into MA mode, you drop the crossbow, ready a shield and a club and use your move actions to simply position yourself most favorably (and possibly fish for some AoO's).




There are two key issues:
1) You can only outrun them if the engagement allows (terrain, opponents.) Planning for that will keep you alive. Assuming every fight will be on a featureless plain with full awareness is how low-level characters end up dead.
That's where psicrystal comes into play. If with such an awesome scout I still walk into an ambush I can't run away from that's most likely on me.



Your primary methods of attack are single-target, and cut into your ability to run - drastically in some cases.
Not sure what do you mean by that. A Str 8 char can carry a light crossbow with some ammunition, a leather armor and a heavy wooden shield without cutting into one's ability to run in any way.



Dex is king, especially early on. Initiative, Reflex, AC, touch attack, it's all worthwhile. I personally wouldn't go below 14.
And Int is DC for your spells. DC 15 vs DC 14 makes it about 15-20% more likely to land vs a +0 will target.
I mean, I agree that Dex is absolutely amazing, but one point is hardly going to be a deal-breaker in and of itself.



Yes, for Elans PP can become effective HP. But now you're cutting into your offense to stay alive instead of staying alive passively. It also boosts both your health and fort save, whereas the Elan racial makes you choose one at a time.
Well, the reverse is also true: if you end up not getting hit in a given encounter (got lucky or the dog tanked for you or whatever), having one extra PP means you can use one more PP "offensively". If you had higher Con, those extra HP's and fort save are simply sitting there, doing nothing.

[Tamior]

EVERY creature with an Int score gains feats with its HD unless it's stated otherwise in the stat block. Psicrystals do not have an exception, and even have a feat in their stat block for level 1.
Ok, we've been over this dozens of times.
Yes, the most straight-forward and unassuming reading of RAW results in psicrystals getting feats from HD.
You are technically 100% correct.
However, this reading makes them ludicrously more powerful. As such, it does not seem to be RAI.

[Troacctid]

Ok, we've been over this dozens of times.
Yes, the most straight-forward and unassuming reading of RAW results in psicrystals getting feats from HD.
You are technically 100% correct.
However, this reading makes them ludicrously more powerful. As such, it does not seem to be RAI.
I've seen a lot of controversial interpretations of psionic rules, but I don't think this is one of them. There's an example psicrystal statblock, and it has feats.

[Psyren]

Scouting is good, but if the adventure requires you to go into less-than-ideal arenas or tight quarters, no amount of scouting is going to prevent that. It doesn't even have to be an "ambush," you're simply in that dungeon for a reason (generally). Will you just stay in town indefinitely if your psicrystal reveals the thing/person you need is in an area where kiting isn't useful? Go on strike until your DM redesigns the world around you?

As for psicrystals performing certain skill checks (like Heal) and being automatically replaced if something nasty befalls them, you'll probably want to clear those rulings with your DM rather than assuming they are a given. It's one thing to say "ha, Heal doesn't say it needs appendages!" and quite another for your GM to okay that.

I don't see 1 extra PP as breaking the bank even at level 1, particularly on a race that already gets 2 bonus.

[Tamior]

I've seen a lot of controversial interpretations of psionic rules, but I don't think this is one of them. There's an example psicrystal statblock, and it has feats.
It also has +14 climb in that stat block.
Where exactly is that +14 coming from if it has +8 racial, +2 from dex and 0 ranks in it?

[Troacctid]

It also has +14 climb in that stat block.
Where exactly is that +14 coming from if it has +8 racial, +2 from dex and 0 ranks in it?
It has 4 skill ranks from its HD, which it put into Climb. It also has 4 bonus ranks each in the other four skills in its statblock as per psicrystal rules. The numbers check out.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It has 4 skill ranks from its HD, which it put into Climb. It also has 4 bonus ranks each in the other four skills in its statblock as per psicrystal rules. The numbers check out.A psicrystal's skills are replaced wholesale with its master's. Maybe the master had ranks in Climb?

[Tamior]

Scouting is good, but if the adventure requires you to go into less-than-ideal arenas or tight quarters, no amount of scouting is going to prevent that. It doesn't even have to be an "ambush," you're simply in that dungeon for a reason (generally). Will you just stay in town indefinitely if your psicrystal reveals the thing/person you need is in an area where kiting isn't useful? Go on strike until your DM redesigns the world around you?
Scouting will not prevent "going into less-than-ideal arenas or tight quarters", but scouting might very well prevent situations where your escape route is suddenly unavailable. Prevent enemies from getting surprise round on you. Allow you to set up an ambush yourself. Etc, etc.
And no lvl 1 strategy is infallible. It just seems to me that kiting is one of the most reliable ones overall.



As for psicrystals performing certain skill checks (like Heal) and being automatically replaced if something nasty befalls them, you'll probably want to clear those rulings with your DM rather than assuming they are a given. It's one thing to say "ha, Heal doesn't say it needs appendages!" and quite another for your GM to okay that.
Sure, but I don't see a solid argument why psicrystal can't use heal. It can carry bandages, after all.
The "automatically replaced" part is much less clear, that, I completely agree with. But then again, what exactly at low CR's can kill a critter with hardness 8 and immunity to crits?



I don't see 1 extra PP as breaking the bank even at level 1, particularly on a race that already gets 2 bonus.
To be fair, +1 dex bonus isn't going to be "breaking the bank" either. Amazing, sure, but not game breaking.

[Tamior]

It has 4 skill ranks from its HD, which it put into Climb. It also has 4 bonus ranks each in the other four skills in its statblock as per psicrystal rules. The numbers check out.
Skills are explicitly mentioned:

A psicrystal has the same skill ranks as its owner, except that it has a minimum of 4 ranks each in Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Search.
Climb is not one of them.



A psicrystal's skills are replaced wholesale with its master's. Maybe the master had ranks in Climb?
No other master's skill is included in that stat block.

[Psyren]

Scouting will not prevent "going into less-than-ideal arenas or tight quarters", but scouting might very well prevent situations where your escape route is suddenly unavailable. Prevent enemies from getting surprise round on you. Allow you to set up an ambush yourself. Etc, etc.
And no lvl 1 strategy is infallible. It just seems to me that kiting is one of the most reliable ones overall.

I guess I'm confused at the fact that kiting is your go-to strategy, but the power that lets you kite just about any monster appears to be a non-starter.



Sure, but I don't see a solid argument why psicrystal can't use heal. It can carry bandages, after all.

Can it? I don't see any items in its statblock at all.
And a St. Bernard can carry bandages too, it doesn't mean it can use them.



The "automatically replaced" part is mouch less clear, that, I completely agree with. But then again, what exactly at low CR's can kill a critter with hardness 8 and immunity to crits?

I'm not saying it isn't tough, just that using it in a dangerous situation might test its defenses more quickly than you might like.



To be fair, +1 dex bonus isn't going to be "game breaking" either. Amazing, sure, but not game breaking.

I didn't say "game breaking," I said "breaking the bank" :smalltongue: It's an expression.

[Tamior]

I guess I'm confused at the fact that kiting is your go-to strategy, but the power that lets you kite just about any monster appears to be a non-starter.

Because Entangling Ectoplasm can miss. Even at +2 dex bonus it's about 50/50 to hit vs most things at CR <2.

Kiting is my go-to simply because when it's possible, it can't really fail. If you can kite, melee enemies literally never even roll to-hit.

Also, if a psion had a 4th power slot at level 1, I would definitely go Entangling Ectoplasm.



Can it? I don't see any items in its statblock at all.

Psicrytal with legs extended, as far as I can tell, is a quadruped. That gives it 1.5 lb light load carry weight at str 1.
That's enough to pull a sack with 1lb left for bandages.



And a St. Bernard can carry bandages too, it doesn't mean it can use them.

Well, unlike St. Bernard, psicrytal

has the same skill ranks as its owner
Presumably that includes the heal skill, because why not?
Also, I don't see a RAW reason why St. Bernard can't attempt to use an untrained heal check, maybe with a circumstance penalty for not knowing what exactly to do.


I didn't say "game breaking," I said "breaking the bank" :smalltongue: It's an expression.
I'm not very good at reading. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Because Entangling Ectoplasm can miss. Even at +2 dex bonus it's about 50/50 to hit vs most things at CR <2.

The way I see it - if you can kite the target without it, then you lose nothing. If you can't, it can save your bacon and keep you from booking it for the exit (which may also fail.) So for me it's a no-brainer.

And against multiple targets, CC is king. Skeletons are often in groups, as are vermin, oozes, etc.



Presumably that includes the heal skill, because why not?

I can think of several reasons why not :smalltongue: Up to your DM though, not me.

[Tamior]

The way I see it - if you can kite the target without it, then you lose nothing. If you can't, it can save your bacon and keep you from booking it for the exit (which may also fail.) So for me it's a no-brainer.

And against multiple targets, CC is king.

Ok, and you consider Entangling Ectoplasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/entanglingEctoplasm.htm) (a single-target ranged touch) to be better CC than Disable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/disable.htm) (everything not immune to mind-effecting within 20-cone for 10 rounds with DC 15 will to save each round)?



Skeletons are often in groups, as are vermin, oozes, etc.

All effectively mindless. Just use psicrystal to pour some oil on the ground in a choke-point and make them come to you.
Edit: also, against a bunch of rats, disable is going to be SOOO much better than Entangling Ectoplasm.



I can think of several reasons why not :smalltongue: Up to your DM though, not me.
Ok, just out of interest: can you think of any reason why psicrystal can't use handle animals to give commands to dogs it's creator owns?

P.S. >ooze
Yes, please. Vs a psion with a psicrystal an ooze is just a free XP pinata. :smallwink:

[Anthrowhale]

A minor side note: if you want to setup your own ambushes, you might consider more seriously the Xeph. Darkvision is super helpful here because otherwise it's hard to avoid announcing your presence via a light source.

[Tamior]

A minor side note: if you want to setup your own ambushes, you might consider more seriously the Xeph. Darkvision is super helpful here because otherwise it's hard to avoid announcing your presence via a light source.
Psi crystals vision is not depended on light, so you can scout just fine.
As for the ambush itself, you can put a candle or a lamp or a torch on top of a psicrystal (from behind a corner) and make it walk towards them. While the enemies will see the crystal, they will not see YOU. So you should still be a surprise for them once they enter the field of illumination.
I mean, actual darkvision would be superior, but it's hardly necessary.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

IIRC, quirks in the rules mean that you can only see a torch when you're in the torch's illumination radius. If you're outside that radius, you cannot see the torch or anything in it...

[Tamior]

IIRC, quirks in the rules mean that you can only see a torch when you're in the torch's illumination radius. If you're outside that radius, you cannot see the torch or anything in it...
Well, if that's the case, a light-source will not be "giving you away" when you use it, so having darkvision is even more irrelevant.

[Troacctid]

IIRC, quirks in the rules mean that you can only see a torch when you're in the torch's illumination radius. If you're outside that radius, you cannot see the torch or anything in it...
That's the case with just the core rules. Other supplements updated the light and darkness rules to fix the glitch.

[Psyren]

Ok, and you consider Entangling Ectoplasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/entanglingEctoplasm.htm) (a single-target ranged touch) to be better CC than Disable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/disable.htm) (everything not immune to mind-effecting within 20-cone for 10 rounds with DC 15 will to save each round)?

I didn't say that. Though since you ask, I do consider a no-save-just-suck regardless of creature type to have some advantages over a 20ft cone mind-affecting compulsion. Personally though I would take both.


Just use psicrystal to pour some oil on the ground

If your DM lets your pet rock do all this, go for it.



Ok, just out of interest: can you think of any reason why psicrystal can't use handle animals to give commands to dogs it's creator owns?

We were talking about Heal, not Handle Animal.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Aren't crystals typically used in New Age healing rituals? Maybe they're psicrystals and use their masters' ranks in the Heal skill to make the whole thing work?

[Tamior]

I didn't say that. Though since you ask, I do consider a no-save-just-suck regardless of creature type to have some advantages over a 20ft cone mind-affecting compulsion. Personally though I would take both.
And this loops us back to the fact you only have 3 powers at level 1.
Matter Agitation being one of them, you cannot have Disable AND Entangling Ectoplasm AND Charm, Psionic.
And without knowing beforehand that I'm going to be fighting almost exclusively things immune to charm, I would go with charm over EE.



If your DM lets your pet rock do all this, go for it.

I'd love to hear a RAW reason that would prevent a creature from carrying something clearly below its carrying capacity.
Because pouring oil to the ground does not really require anything beyond being able to carry the bottle to the tile in question and tilting it there.



We were talking about Heal, not Handle Animal.
Yes, it's a separate question. I want to hear your opinion.

[Anthrowhale]

Psi crystals vision is not depended on light, so you can scout just fine.
As for the ambush itself, you can put a candle or a lamp or a torch on top of a psicrystal (from behind a corner) and make it walk towards them. While the enemies will see the crystal, they will not see YOU. So you should still be a surprise for them once they enter the field of illumination.
I mean, actual darkvision would be superior, but it's hardly necessary.

If you use a psicrystal based light source that leads the way, I'm skeptical that you'll achieve surprise. Any creatures you are "sneaking" up on will be fully aware that there is something odd going on and may begin combat ahead of time. A real ambush happens when one side is not aware that there is a potential enemy nearby.

The biggest reason to not have darkvision in my opinion is if other people in the party do not have darkvision. There is a significant tactical switch between "everyone in the party has darkvision" and "one person in the party does not have darkvision.

Incidentally, the real danger for a psicrystal seems to be not destruction but rather capture since a grapple check of -17 is as bad as it gets. The smart kobold grabs it, sticks it in a bag, runs back to their lair, and then sticks it in a birdcage/drops it in the sewer/experiments to discover how many stones you can stack on top of it, etc...

[Tamior]

If you use a psicrystal based light source that leads the way, I'm skeptical that you'll achieve surprise. Any creatures you are "sneaking" up on will be fully aware that there is something odd going on and may begin combat ahead of time. A real ambush happens when one side is not aware that there is a potential enemy nearby.

They sure can "begin combat", the question is, what will they actually DO if they can't see the psion (yet).
Run towards the psicrystal to hit it/grab it?
Let's assume, for simplicity, that there is a long corridor leading to a room with no door (or an open door) at one end (enemies are in it), and Bobby the psion is waiting at the other end behind a corner.
As soon as the crystal with the lamp has moved 50' away from the end where psion is waiting, said psion makes a 5' step from behind the corner and readies an action to fire a crossbow at whoever moves into the well-illuminated radius first.
Since Bobby is likely still invisible to that target, we are looking +2 to hit and no AC bonus to the target.
When his next turn comes, he takes another shot and takes a 5' step back behind the wall. Technically there was no "surprise round" for Boddy, but he still got two shots off pretty easily.
If the space is more confined the situation might not be that favorable, but the general principal still holds.
The key factor here is that the bait (psicrystal) is effectively impervious to damage, and psion is hiding behind a corner until he is ready to strike, and the enemies have no idea there is anyone behind that corner.

I mean, really, let's say you are DM'ing a game and a psicrytal with a lamp on top is moving towards a room where some goblins are camped. What would the goblins do?



The biggest reason to not have darkvision in my opinion is if other people in the party do not have darkvision. There is a significant tactical switch between "everyone in the party has darkvision" and "one person in the party does not have darkvision.
Elan is simply a better race overall in my opinion than Xeph.



Incidentally, the real danger for a psicrystal seems to be not destruction but rather capture since a grapple check of -17 is as bad as it gets. The smart kobold grabs it, sticks it in a bag, runs back to their lair, and then sticks it in a birdcage/drops it in the sewer/experiments to discover how many stones you can stack on top of it, etc...
Psicrytal has 16 touch AC, so grabbing it isn't exactly easy.
So kobold plans to use a move action to come close to the crystal and standard action to start a grapple.
As soon as he comes into the light, bolt comes at it. Do you really think a kobold will commit to grabbing the crystal..?
Ok, let's say he does. He has about 25% chance to hit vs AC 16. Even if he succeeds, he's still in a grapple, so he will have to either spend moves next turns pinning the crystal and putting it into he bag (standard action and move action by any reasonable account), allowing even more bolt to come his way, or release the crystal and move away.
Even if all that is successful (somehow) and he gets to the lair with the crystal, there are just SOOO many ways this can backfire for the kobold (he's bringing a spy with telepathic link to the psion into the lair, you know).

[Psyren]

And this loops us back to the fact you only have 3 powers at level 1.
Matter Agitation being one of them, you cannot have Disable AND Entangling Ectoplasm AND Charm, Psionic.
And without knowing beforehand that I'm going to be fighting almost exclusively things immune to charm, I would go with charm over EE.

Whereas I think 2 mind-affecting will saves out of my 3 powers known is overkill. But that's a difference in our philosophy and totally fine.



I'd love to hear a RAW reason that would prevent a creature from carrying something clearly below its carrying capacity.

For the third time, if your DM is okay with "My pet rock doesn't need hands to manipulate objects by RAW" then more power to you.



Yes, it's a separate question. I want to hear your opinion.

They can't talk until 5th level, so I would say no to giving commands to animals at 1. Again though, this is up to your DM, not me.

[Tamior]

Whereas I think 2 mind-affecting will saves out of my 3 powers known is overkill. But that's a difference in our philosophy and totally fine.

Yea, agreed.



For the third time, if your DM is okay with "My pet rock doesn't need hands to manipulate objects by RAW" then more power to you.

But you can just strap the bottle to the crystal upright and simply make it tilt itself to spil the oil! Look, ma, no hands!



They can't talk until 5th level, so I would say no to giving commands to animals at 1. Again though, this is up to your DM, not me.
They can:

A psicrystal can speak one language of its owner’s choice (so long as it is a language the owner knows). A psicrystal can understand all other languages known by its owner, but cannot speak them. This is a supernatural ability.
What they get at level 5 is:

If the owner is 5th level or higher, the psicrystal can communicate telepathically with any creature that has a language and is within 30 feet of the psicrystal, while the psicrystal is also within 1 mile of the owner.
So I see no reason a psicrystal can't use handle animal rigth away.

[Psyren]

But you can just strap the bottle to the crystal upright and simply make it tilt itself to spil the oil! Look, ma, no hands!

I don't know how well you can strap things to a Diminutive crystal. But again (for the fourth time now) that is between you and your DM.



They can:

What they get at level 5 is:

So I see no reason a psicrystal can't use handle animal rigth away.

This should be fine then.

[Anthrowhale]

I mean, really, let's say you are DM'ing a game and a psicrytal with a lamp on top is moving towards a room where some goblins are camped. What would the goblins do?

The goblins would probably attack the psicrystal, and fail. Then they would attack the lamp, and plausibly succeed. If one bolt / round is coming at them from the dark, they'd probably double down on taking out the light while attempting to retreat so they aren't visible to the attacker. If they take out the light, then they sneak forward. If that fails consistently, they might psych up for a bum rush.


Psicrytal has 16 touch AC, so grabbing it isn't exactly easy.
So kobold plans to use a move action to come close to the crystal and standard action to start a grapple.
As soon as he comes into the light, bolt comes at it. Do you really think a kobold will commit to grabbing the crystal..?
Ok, let's say he does. He has about 25% chance to hit vs AC 16. Even if he succeeds, he's still in a grapple, so he will have to either spend moves next turns pinning the crystal and putting it into he bag (standard action and move action by any reasonable account), allowing even more bolt to come his way, or release the crystal and move away.
Even if all that is successful (somehow) and he gets to the lair with the crystal, there are just SOOO many ways this can backfire for the kobold (he's bringing a spy with telepathic link to the psion into the lair, you know).
I agree with the above. On the upside, it's notably more effective than shooting at the psicrystal with a bow or banging on it with some small handheld weapon.

[Tamior]

The goblins would probably attack the psicrystal, and fail. Then they would attack the lamp, and plausibly succeed. If one bolt / round is coming at them from the dark, they'd probably double down on taking out the light while attempting to retreat so they aren't visible to the attacker. If they take out the light, then they sneak forward. If that fails consistently, they might psych up for a bum rush.
The beauty of the situation with the lamp is that breaking it down will likely create MORE light (but for only a few round).
(And bum rushing will just get them into disable zone.)
Basically, my argument is: you don't needs darkvision to pull a pretty good "ambush" if you have a psicrytal scouting.



I agree with the above. On the upside, it's notably more effective than shooting at the psicrystal with a bow or banging on it with some small handheld weapon.
Well, EPH has no rules for piscrytal replacement, but pathfinder has this:

Should your psicrystal be destroyed, you gain a new one after 24 hours.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/feats/psicrystal-affinity-psionic

[Tamior]

Speaking about psicrytals:

how exactly do you treat a psicrystal without self-propulsion active?

Is it still the same Diminutive Construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm), but with no speed and no str and dex?

Or is it just an item at that point? Does it register on "detect psionics"?

Moreover, can enemies tell apart a psicrystal (without self-propulsion active) from a normal rock/crystal, especially if you dip in into a mud from the nearest puddle to conceal the fact it's abnormally clean?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Speaking about psicrytals:

how exactly do you treat a psicrystal without self-propulsion active?

Is it still the same Diminutive Construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm), but with no speed and no str and dex?This. It's still a creature; it just can't move without other ways to propel it -- such as a psychoactive skin of proteus, alter self spell, or a manifestation of metamorphosis.


Does it register on "detect psionics"?If a psicrystal has any (Su) abilities active, is under any psionic effects, or it's taken feats to become [psionic], it registers as having psionics to detect psionics. Otherwise, it's treated like any other creature that has access to supernatural powers but isn't using them. Though remember, psicrystals can understand all the languages its master knows, and it can speak one of those languages as a (Su) ability. So I guess it's always under a (Su) effect, at least.


Moreover, can enemies tell apart a psicrystal (without self-propulsion active) from a normal rock/crystal, especially if you dip in into a mud from the nearest puddle to conceal the fact it's abnormally clean?Unless enemies have a knowledge skill (likely Kn: Psionics or possibly Kn: Arcana, due to constructs defaulting to the latter), they use some sort of effect to detect psionics, or the psicrystal does something funny (such as talk), I don't think others will realize that it's anything but an unusual stone. The master may want to fashion his psicrystal after a preexisting type of stone (whether valuable or otherwise) so it can pass itself off as a normal piece of stone as needed.

[Tamior]

psicrystals can understand all the languages its master knows, and it can speak one of those languages as a (Su) ability. So I guess it's always under a (Su) effect, at least.
They also have permanent Telepathic Link (Su) with the owner.
I guess the two option to rule here would be that either those are:
- permanently detectable with no way to suppress
- can be suppressed by the psicrytal, but leave a lingering aura as normal after being suppressed

[Ashiel]

Let's say I'm playing a level 1 psion (Telepath, but it doesn't really matter much at level 1, I guess).
Let's also say that in the interest of having the most !fun! we are playing a campaign where XP gains are pretty slow, so I can expect to stay at level 1 for quite a few in-game months, if not years.

Now, let's make one more assumption: for whatever reason, every so often psion is forced to fight a monster effectively without the help of other PC's (other PC's are busy elsewhere, or simply roll so badly at their attack rolls that it does not contribute much, and the monster decided to focus on the psion). That's not to say psion is "solo" per say, but rather that we are simply considering a worst-case scenario where you can't rely on other for help.

For simplicity, let's stick to expanded psionics + core rules. 28 points for point buy, normal starting gold, no super-tight time constraints (so PC's can spend a few weeks crafting, or earning extra money via skills, or training animals, etc).
Enemies encountered are pretty standard CR ~1 stuff: low-end undead, animals, goblins, etc.

For many low-level creatures, empathic connection (psionic charm) is enough to end a fight (and give you a buddy for 1 hour that can follow your orders if you can communicate and win the odd opposed Charisma check) if the fight is a one on one situation.

Inevitable strike is an effective power for landing some hits in a pinch, granting you a +5 bonus to hit and ignoring concealment a a swift action or a +20 bonus like true strike if manifested as a standard. Can be a decent method to KO a low level foe (particularly in combined with a pre-loaded crossbow or an alchemist fire).

Foxhole is a just generally useful spell in many situations whether you're alone or not, as it allows you to create cover/concealment for you and yours, and has some utility benefits. If for some reason you are in a ranged situation you can get a rather impressive advantage with this and it can be good for setting up a campsite.

Vigor is pretty strong at low levels as well and you can share it with your psicrystal, and can be decent if you wanna fake being a front liner for a bit.

At low levels, relying on your ability as a person is a good idea too. Some leather armor is a good investment whether you have powers that grant AC or not (you can sleep in it, it's not subject to being dispelled, it lasts all day). Similarly, alchemical items like alchemist fire, acid flasks, holy water, and items like caltrops can serve you very well at low levels and allow you to manage difficult foes that your powers aren't well suited for dealing with (alchemist fire and holy water tends to wreck low level undead for example).

As for point buy, consider spreading your stats out. 12, 12, 12, 14, 12, 12 is a legal PF-15PB build and doesn't include racials and is more than enough to play an effective psion, and allows you enough strength to carry your gear. You could of course tweak it a bit to your liking (if you don't plan to use opposed Charisma checks a lot despite being a telepath you could raise your Dexterity at the cost of Charisma or a little bit of Strength to get your AC and Reflex a little higher for example).

For feats, you've got some options. A human psion can take Psionic Body + Psionic Talent twice to get +6 HP and +5 PP, and you can always retrain them or psychically reform later if you want, but it can give you some extra longevity at 1st level (d6 Hp, +1 Con, +6 = 13 HP at 1st level), or you could take Psicrystal Affinity (but you could wait until 3rd level since you'll also be able to pick up share pain at that level and can begin psi-tanking). If you go the psicrystal route, you should actually be less likely to stumble upon enemies unaware since your psicrystal should be scouting regularly (it has a rather enormous Stealth modifier and hardness 8).

And more than anything, never say die. When fighting take account of the type of enemy you're fighting. If you come across some orc with a two-handed weapon, don't risk sitting there and trading blows when he can casually kill you in a single good swing, drop some caltrops and beat feet or something instead.

[Tamior]

Why exactly is everyone so sure that sharing vigor with psicrystal gives both of you those temp HP's?
Afaik, according to (pretty official) ruling here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a) that's NOT how it works:

Some spells have benefits that can be fully shared and other benefits that must be allocated to the familiar or to the master. For example, an aid spell grants temporary hit points and bestows a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and saves against fear effects. If the master and the familiar share an aid spell, only one of them gets the temporary hit points, but both receive the morale bonus.

[Crichton]

Why exactly is everyone so sure that sharing vigor with psicrystal gives both of you those temp HP's?
Afaik, according to (pretty official) ruling here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a) that's NOT how it works:

Ok, I'll take a stab at this, but I'm hoping others will come in and verify or correct me.


I know the faq articles aren't considered to be binding, or RAW, and I've heard they have lots of errors and contradictions. I don't know if the Rules of the Game articles fall into that category, but I don't think I've ever seen one pointed to in a RAW discussion as proof of how a rule works. If they are binding RAW, then the rest of this is irrelevant.

That said, the actual text of the rule says 'At the owner’s option, he can have any power (but not any psi-like ability) he manifests on himself also affect his psicrystal.' Taken at face value, having Vigor 'also affect his psicrystal' would seem to mean that the psicrystal also gains the benefit of the power (so long as he stays within 5 feet of the psion, as the rules later state).


Even if that's not the case, and by RAW you can't give your psicrystal 5 temp hp(per PP) using the same manifestation of Vigor as you use on yourself, you CAN, definitely and without question, manifest Vigor on your psicrystal separately, as a touch range power instead of it's normal personal range. That's not as good as sharing it, but that aspect is unquestionable.

[Tamior]

Ok, I'll take a stab at this, but I'm hoping others will come in and verify or correct me.


I know the faq articles aren't considered to be binding, or RAW, and I've heard they have lots of errors and contradictions. I don't know if the Rules of the Game articles fall into that category, but I don't think I've ever seen one pointed to in a RAW discussion as proof of how a rule works. If they are binding RAW, then the rest of this is irrelevant.

That said, the actual text of the rule says 'At the owner’s option, he can have any power (but not any psi-like ability) he manifests on himself also affect his psicrystal.' Taken at face value, having Vigor 'also affect his psicrystal' would seem to mean that the psicrystal also gains the benefit of the power (so long as he stays within 5 feet of the psion, as the rules later state).


Even if that's not the case, and by RAW you can't give your psicrystal 5 temp hp(per PP) using the same manifestation of Vigor as you use on yourself, you CAN, definitely and without question, manifest Vigor on your psicrystal separately, as a touch range power instead of it's normal personal range. That's not as good as sharing it, but that aspect is unquestionable.
I agree that it would 100% work if you simply manifest the power twice (once for you and once for crystal).
As for Rules of the Game articles, I don't think it's the same status as RAW, it's certainly a strong argument one way for only "gray area" situation.

[Ashiel]

The effect of the power is "you get this many temporary hit points". When you share it with your psicrystal, the psicrystal gets a duplicate effect of "you get this many hit points". In the same way that you do not split any other bonuses (if you manifested inertial armor you and your psicrystal get a +4 armor bonus, not a +2/+2, +3/+1, or any other combination.

That's just how it works. The thing you linked is actually just wrong. If you manifest natural healing to heal yourself of 3 hit points and you share the effects of the spell with your psicrystal it also gains 3 hit points because the effect of the spell is "Heal this thing for 3 hit points".

It doesn't split anything, it just targets another creature (your psicrystal) with the exact same effect as long as the conditions are met.

EDIT: And no, those articles are not RAW, nor have they ever been. In fact, the FAQ was frequently a laughing stock on the old WotC forums back in the day. In a similar fashion, if you called up their customer support line or sent them a rules question (which was a thing) you would frequently get answers that not only conflicted the rules, and the FAQ, but also themselves depending on who was answering.

[lord_khaine]

I still recall how in 3.0 they said that Death Ward protected against Disintegrate.

Clearly the task of answering those things were performed by bored interns.
Or HR.

[Crichton]

I still recall how in 3.0 they said that Death Ward protected against Disintegrate.

Clearly the task of answering those things were performed by bored interns.
Or HR.

That has been true, in a lot of cases. The linked article, however, was authored by Skip Williams.

[Tamior]

For what it's worth, the linked article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a) seems to offer a pretty coherent, reasonable, non-contradictory and (dare I say) balanced interpretation of what exactly it means to "share a spell/power" with familiar/psicrystal/etc:
effects that don't have "charges" and can't be "exhausted" are shared by both creature equally for the duration of the spell, but all effect that DO have "charges" (explicit or implicit) and/or can be exhausted can still be shared, but the "limit" is not doubled.
I.e. in case of Vigor you can chose who gets how much of those temp HP, but the pool is not doubled.

P.S. Just to clarify: I'm not saying this interpretation is the "only correct one" by RAW. I'm saying that it doesn't contradict anything directly (afaik) and can, in fact, be preferable if you want to limit the amount of "freebies" your non-mundanes get.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For what it's worth, the linked article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a) seems to offer a pretty coherent, reasonable, non-contradictory and (dare I say) balanced interpretation of what exactly it means to "share a spell/power" with familiar/psicrystal/etc:
effects that don't have "charges" and can't be "exhausted" are shared by both creature equally for the duration of the spell, but all effect that DO have "charges" (explicit or implicit) and/or can be exhausted can still be shared, but the "limit" is not doubled.
I.e. in case of Vigor you can chose who gets how much of those temp HP, but the pool is not doubled.

P.S. Just to clarify: I'm not saying this interpretation is the "only correct one" by RAW. I'm saying that it doesn't contradict anything directly (afaik) and can, in fact, be preferable if you want to limit the amount of "freebies" your non-mundanes get.What? No, that's not even a little bit right. Nothing in RAW even suggests that that's how it works. You share a power with your psicrystal, you both get the effect, so long as you're within 5'. Unless manifesting metamorphosis like that means you have to split which body parts you share?

[Tamior]

What? No, that's not even a little bit right. Nothing in RAW even suggests that that's how it works. You share a power with your psicrystal, you both get the effect, so long as you're within 5'. Unless manifesting metamorphosis like that means you have to split which body parts you share?
Can you give me a RAW example of, say, some kind of cure spell being shared that explicitly shows that the effect is, in fact, duplicated, not just split between the two? Or of any spell that only produces a numerically limited amount a benefit that can be exhausted?
Otherwise you are just assuming that "sharing the affect with familiar" means "effect is fully duplicated for familiar even if it's a numerically limited amount a benefit that can be exhausted".

Let's put it another way. The article gives an example:

A shared protection from energy spell shields both the master and the familiar, but all energy damage that either the familiar or the master suffers is deducted from the total amount of energy the spell can absorb.
How is that inconsistent with RAW?

Again, I understand that the reading that Share Spells simply duplicates the effect under all circumstances is widely consider to be the RAI and all that. But if you want to persuade me that "nothing in RAW even suggests that that's how it works" I'd really like to see how this "alternative reading" actually directly contradicts something in RAW.

P.S. Metamorphosis does not produce a numerically limited amount a benefit that can be exhausted. You can't "run of limbs" when using metamorphosis (you can turn into Centipede if that's what you want).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Share powers says:



Share Powers (Su)
At the owner’s option, he can have any power (but not any psi-like ability) he manifests on himself also affect his psicrystal. The psicrystal must be within 5 feet of him at the time of the manifestation to receive the benefit. If the power has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the psicrystal if it moves farther than 5 feet away, and will not affect the psicrystal again, even if it returns to its owner before the duration expires.

Additionally, the owner can manifest a power with a target of “You” on his psicrystal (as a touch range power) instead of on himself. The owner and psicrystal cannot share powers if the powers normally do not affect creatures of the psicrystal’s type (construct).It says nothing whatsoever about partial effect. It says that so long as his psicrystal is within 5', he can allow a power he manifests on himself to also affect his psicrystal. No portioning or anything. Partial effects are either a houserule or outright wrong.

[Tamior]

It says nothing whatsoever about partial effect. It says that so long as his psicrystal is within 5', he can allow a power he manifests on himself to also affect his psicrystal. No portioning or anything. Partial effects are either a houserule or outright wrong.
It says nothing whatsoever that effect can't end up being partial.
In fact, it says nothing whatsoever as to what exactly happens when you share a power that only produced a limited amount of benefit.
Moreover, the very idea of something being "shared" is much more in line with said something being split if there is a limited amount of said something. When party member are getting their share of loot it's actually being split, not duplicated.

Lots of things in 3.5 are not "said" explicitly and you know just as well as I do that those situation are usually left for individual DM's to interpret.
For example, Psicrystal Affinity says nothing about replacing a lost psicrystal. Should that means that allowing a psion to replace a lost psicrystal is always "a houserule or outright wrong"?

P.S. Let me ask you plainly: do you really consider a ruling that does not directly contradict RAW by Skip Williams to be nothing more than a houserule?

[Anthrowhale]

Reading through the Skip Williams article, some elements make since to me, but some do not. For example, I'd think that a shared Cat's Grace should add an enhancement bonus to the dexterity of both master and familiar. Otherwise, it seems quite odd to have a Cat's Grace 'affect his familiar' and yet not provide an enhancement bonus. That seems plainly contradictory to the wording.

For spells with a shared pool of some sort like temporary hit points, I'd expect the number of temporary hit points granted by the pool remains as normal, but for those temporary hit points to be shard between master and familiar. Thus, a master casting aid would share 1d8 hit points with a familiar. For concreteness, let's assume a 5 is rolled. If the master or the familiar take 5 points of damage, it comes off the temporary hit points. But if both master and familiar take 5 points of damage, whichever takes the damage second applies it to hit points as the temporary hit points are exhausted by the first application. In essence, this is taking the 'protection from energy' interpretation discussed in the article and applying it universally.

As a DM, I'd also rule that a shared spell is a single spell, and hence that a targeted dispel affecting one of the recipients dispels the full effect on both the sharing elements.

The RAW here is very brief, so for each spell a DM would have to decide what "also affect" means in:

he may have any spell... he casts on himself also affect his familiar.

[Tamior]

Frankly, I understand the appeal of "one-size-fits-it-all" approach of simply duplicating every spell that is being shared.
But, let's be honest, this interpretation is effectively yet another buff for a bunch of mostly tier 1/2 classes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It says nothing whatsoever that effect can't end up being partial.
In fact, it says nothing whatsoever as to what exactly happens when you share a power that only produced a limited amount of benefit.So, you're saying that because the books don't say it doesn't, than there's a good possibility that it does? That...is an entirely nonsensical "argument." The rules don't even hint at the possibility that "partial benefits" is a thing. The fact that someone at WotC stated something like that as if it's a rule doesn't make it so. Look at the book, read the book, see that there is no such thing no matter how hard you squint, and you'd have to take a Sharpie to the book and write it in yourself for it to be written in there.


Moreover, the very idea of something being "shared" is much more in line with said something being split if there is a limited amount of said something. When party member are getting their share of loot it's actually being split, not duplicated.You're not splitting. Nowhere does it say you're splitting. It says that the psicrystal gains the benefits of the powers you manifest as well, not that there's some weird, arbitrary, and completely imaginary splitting of benefits going on.


Lots of things in 3.5 are not "said" explicitly and you know just as well as I do that those situation are usually left for individual DM's to interpret.
For example, Psicrystal Affinity says nothing about replacing a lost psicrystal. Should that means that allowing a psion to replace a lost psicrystal is always "a houserule or outright wrong"?Houserules are not rules-rules. Splitting benefits is a houserule because it's not stated anywhere that anything like that occurs.

As to a psicrystal dying, you gain your psicrystal via a feat. So long as you have the feat, you gain the benefit of that feat unless something in the feat disallows it (such as the Exalted Vows). So long as you have Psicrystal Affinity, you gain the benefit of having a psicrystal. If the psicrystal dies, you still have a psicrystal since you still have the feat. Therefore, "you get another one" is perfectly valid.

Interpreting rules is one thing. Making them up whole cloth is something else.


P.S. Let me ask you plainly: do you really consider a ruling that does not directly contradict RAW by Skip Williams to be nothing more than a houserule?Yes. Because it's not even hinted at anywhere in the actual rules that weird stuff like that happens. It's entirely a houserule, because he's completely making stuff up.


Frankly, I understand the appeal of "one-size-fits-it-all" approach of simply duplicating every spell that is being shared.
But, let's be honest, this interpretation is effectively yet another buff for a bunch of mostly tier 1/2 classes.And yet you'll notice that familiars are a horrible liability for the casters that take them unless a huge amount of effort is spent on shoring the weakness up. There's a reason why exchanging your familiar for an ACF is highly encouraged. And that's with the full sharing of spells.

A psicrystal is a lot more durable and has a lot less of a drawback if it dies. It's useful, but not horribly overpowered, so not Nerfing it via rather horrible houserules is unneeded.

[Tamior]

So, you're saying that because the books don't say it doesn't, than there's a good possibility that it does? That...is an entirely nonsensical "argument."
Ok, to sum up: even though RAW never explicitly mention the "shared" spell being either "split" or "duplicated" when there is a limited/exhaustible amount of benefit to be had, interpreting that it's split is clearly "making up rules", yet interpreting that it's duplicated is not?


At the master’s option, he may have any spell he casts on himself also affect his familiar.
RAW never details what "also affect his familiar" means if there is a limited/exhaustible pool of benefit to be had from one casting.
Yet somehow it's for some reason obvious that interpreting it as master and familiar sharing that pool by splitting it is "making up rules", but interpreting it as master and familiar sharing the that pool by effectively doubling the pool and giving each a duplicate effect is not?



And yet you'll notice that familiars are a horrible liability for the casters that take them unless a huge amount of effort is spent on shoring the weakness up. There's a reason why exchanging your familiar for an ACF is highly encouraged.
Golly gee, it's almost like mundanes also have some of the optional class feats/features that are not really that useful and would be better exchanged for something else.
Also, you can summon a familiar, get the bonus of your choice, and keep it permanently "in the box". It's only a noticeable "weakness" if you choose to expose it.

[Ashiel]

Long story short, RAW is the rules as written. What you say is neither a rule, nor is it written. It's nothing that you could ever come up with reading the rules, because the rules never say anything at all about dividing the effects of any spell between you and your familiar/psicrystal or whatever. It's also super unhelpful, because it doesn't explain which spells get split and which do not. You might think it does, but it really doesn't, because there are many spell effects with non-standard bonuses or benefits, or varying amounts of some sort of value.

For example, how do you know how to split divine power or stoneskin or death ward or resist energy or protection from energy or haste or mind blank or spell resistance or any number of things? What about spells like polymorph or shapechange?

It's nonsensical. You are, essentially, just making stuff up that isn't consistent across the board. Temporary hit points and healing spells make no such exceptions for themselves as being any different than something like shield of faith. The spell does X, the ability says it also affects this target too, end of story.

EDIT: Put another way, if you had say a class feature that says "Whenever you use cure light wounds on a creature, you are also affected by your cure light wounds", by your reasoning you would have to split the benefits, but nothing says you do. It would have to explicitly say that the healing was distributed between you and the target.

EDIT 2:
Yet somehow it's for some reason obvious that interpreting it as master and familiar sharing that pool by splitting it is "making up rules", but interpreting it as master and familiar sharing the that pool by effectively doubling the pool and giving each a duplicate effect is not?
Put yet another way, there is no pool.

[Tamior]

Ok, RAW never explicitly mention "shared" spell effect being fully duplicated if it only provides a limited ammount of benefit per casting. Why is it ok to interpret duplication, but not ok to interpret splitting?

[Elkad]

I imagine this is why PF just got rid of spell sharing for familiars.

I can tell you at my table, if it has a benefit pool, the pool is shared, not doubled.

If I invite you over to watch a movie, we both get the benefit at no additional cost. That's Mind Blank, or Mage Armor. Admittedly, there might be some groping involved. You decide if that's a cost or a benefit.

If I invite you over to help eat my ice cream, there is still only one carton of ice cream. So we both get a half-serving. Or I could let you eat it all, or I could eat it all, or we could just get 2 spoons and start eating right out of the carton with no attempt to divide it. It doesn't turn into 2 cartons. That's a [Healing] spell, Stoneskin, or similar.

It's in my houserules. At the time of casting, you decide how it works. Assign entire pool to one recipient, living shared pool, or static evenly-shared pool.

Psion puts 6 power points into Vigor. He can give himself 30hp, his crystal 30hp, 15hp each, or a 30hp pool that is drawn down as used by either party.
There is a use case for all of them.

Nobody has ever tried to use Alter Self to turn into two different things, so I haven't codified that. Honestly not sure on that one. At best I'm going to halve the duration. More likely I'll disallow it, because that is already one of the more powerful spells.

[Tamior]

For example, how do you know how to split divine power or stoneskin or death ward or resist energy or protection from energy or haste or mind blank or spell resistance or any number of things? What about spells like polymorph or shapechange?
«If the spell has some sort of "pool" that can be exhausted, both master and familiar exhaust the same pool. »
Seems like a pretty self-consistent interpretation. Give me an example of a spell that would be hard to interpret under this ruling, please.


EDIT: Put another way, if you had say a class feature that says "Whenever you use cure light wounds on a creature, you are also affected by your cure light wounds", by your reasoning you would have to split the benefits, but nothing says you do. It would have to explicitly say that the healing was distributed between you and the target.

There is no other meaningful interpretation here, because in this case healing it the only benefit that the spell provide, and it's not worded as "shared". There is, however, a meaningful interpretation of spells being shared even if limited/exhaustable benefits are not being duplicated, but rather split.

Also, let's look at the amulet from MIC:


When you activate your amulet, the next effect you use before the end of your turn that heals another creature’s damage also heals you of an equal amount, as long as you could be healed by that same effect. If the effect heals multiple creatures, you only gain the retributive healing once per effect.
No ambiguity here.

[Ashiel]

Ok, RAW never explicitly mention "shared" spell effect being fully duplicated if it only provides a limited ammount of benefit per casting. Why is it ok to interpret duplication, but not ok to interpret splitting?

Because an effect is an effect.

[Tamior]

Because an effect is an effect.
And sharing is sharing, not doubling.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And sharing is sharing, not doubling.And making up houserules is not RAW. Ever.

There's nothing inherently wrong with houserules, but if you can't see why making stuff up whole cloth isn't RAW, I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation.

[Crichton]

I can tell you at my table, if it has a benefit pool, the pool is shared, not doubled.

If I invite you over to watch a movie, we both get the benefit at no additional cost. That's Mind Blank, or Mage Armor.



Not taking sides, but that's way inconsistent. If Vigor has a 'pool' of hp to split, then Mage Armor has 'pool' of Armor bonus, why don't they each get +2, in your 'pool split' houserules? This is a really slippery slope, since there's a ton of spells with a fixed numerical benefit that by this logic would be interpreted as a 'pool' and thus split, but even in Skip's article, only some numbers get split, and no real logic as to which is which. He just arbitrarily decides that HP get split, but other numerical bonuses don't? That makes absolutely no sense.

[Crichton]

t.

Also, let's look at the amulet from MIC:

No ambiguity here.



When you activate your amulet, the next effect you use before the end of your turn that heals another creature’s damage also heals you of an equal amount, as long as you could be healed by that same effect. If the effect heals multiple creatures, you only gain the retributive healing once per effect.

That example is just almost the opposite of what you seem to be claiming it is, and comes close to debunking your whole point. The Amulet of Retributive Healing pretty much exactly duplicates the spell's healing effect. There's no pool of healing being split, or anything at all like that. The example in the MIC for it's use is casting CLW on an ally, and you receiving the entire same amount of hp back that your ally does.

[Tamior]

And making up houserules is not RAW. Ever.

There's nothing inherently wrong with houserules, but if you can't see why making stuff up whole cloth isn't RAW, I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation.
You keep insisting that essentially doubling an exhaustible effect is not a houserule, while splitting is.
I see both interpretations as equally RAW/houserule.
EDIT: I see them as equally RAW because neither is explicitly stated or explicitly contradicts anything.


Not taking sides, but that's way inconsistent. If Vigor has a 'pool' of hp to split, then Mage Armor has 'pool' of Armor bonus, why don't they each get +2, in your 'pool split' houserules? This is a really slippery slope, since there's a ton of spells with a fixed numerical benefit that by this logic would be interpreted as a 'pool' and thus split, but even in Skip's article, only some numbers get split, and no real logic as to which is which. He just arbitrarily decides that HP get split, but other numerical bonuses don't? That makes absolutely no sense.
You can't exhaust the armor bonus. It will be up no matter how many hits it helps to prevent.
You can, however, exhaust temp HP.
Again, give me any spell that can be shared, and I will be able to tell you (hopefully consistently) if there is an effect that can be exhausted or not.

[Tamior]

That example is just almost the opposite of what you seem to be claiming it is, and comes close to debunking your whole point. The Amulet of Retributive Healing pretty much exactly duplicates the spell's healing effect. There's no pool of healing being split, or anything at all like that. The example in the MIC for it's use is casting CLW on an ally, and you receiving the entire same amount of hp back that your ally does.
Nowhere in the description of the amulet it says that the spell is "shared".
It also explicitly states in the description that the effect is copied, but only once even if the spell effected multiple targets.

[Ashiel]

Nowhere in the description of the amulet it says that the spell is "shared".
It also explicitly states in the description that the effect is copied, but only once even if the spell effected multiple targets.
Shared is not the same as split. I can share a book with a friend for example. We both get to read its contents and nothing is lost. I can share a picture on my computer and my friend and I both have the full benefits of that computer. If the spell said "divide" then I'd be on board with you and then promptly complain that the mechanics give no indication as to how you divide an effect, especially effects that do not have numerical values.

For example, how do you divide an alter self or disguise self or polymorph spell? The answer is you don't.

Not only does your claim have literally no grounds in the rules, but it requires you to invent a whole slew of new rules just to support the idea that don't exist.

[Tamior]

Shared is not the same as split. I can share a book with a friend for example. We both get to read its contents and nothing is lost. I can share a picture on my computer and my friend and I both have the full benefits of that computer. If the spell said "divide" then I'd be on board with you and then promptly complain that the mechanics give no indication as to how you divide an effect, especially effects that do not have numerical values.

For example, how do you divide an alter self or disguise self or polymorph spell? The answer is you don't.

The effect needs to be "divided" only if it produces a limited amount of benefit that can be exhausted.
Otherwise it effect both recipients equally.
So for polymorph both recipients can assume a new form, but this part needs to be divided:

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting



Not only does your claim have literally no grounds in the rules
Other then an article by Skip Williams published by WOTC, you mean. (I know, I know, those are not rules. That's, like, just Skip Williams opinion of how rules he helped design should work.)

[Ashiel]

The effect needs to be "divided" only if it produces a limited amount of benefit that can be exhausted.
Otherwise it effect both recipients equally.
So for polymorph both recipients can assume a new form, but this part needs to be divided:



Other then an article by Skip Williams published by WOTC, you mean. (I know, I know, those are not rules. That's, like, just Skip Williams opinion of how rules he helped design should work.)

Please provide a rule citation, because otherwise I will continue to assume you are making stuff up.

EDIT: I'll make it easier for you. Here's a link to the different types (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/basicsRacesDescription.htm), magic chapter (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicOverview.htm), and combat chapter (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/combat.htm); as well as the Pathfinder versions: Getting Started (http://pathfinder.d20srd.org/coreRulebook/gettingStarted.html), Magic (http://pathfinder.d20srd.org/coreRulebook/magic.html), Combat (http://pathfinder.d20srd.org/coreRulebook/combat.html).

I'll wait.

[Tamior]

Please provide a rule citation, because otherwise I will continue to assume you are making stuff up.

EDIT: I'll make it easier for you. Here's a link to the different types (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/basicsRacesDescription.htm), magic chapter (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicOverview.htm), and combat chapter (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/combat.htm); as well as the Pathfinder versions: Getting Started (http://pathfinder.d20srd.org/coreRulebook/gettingStarted.html), Magic (http://pathfinder.d20srd.org/coreRulebook/magic.html), Combat (http://pathfinder.d20srd.org/coreRulebook/combat.html).

I'll wait.
What exactly do you want me to provide a rule citation for?

[Ashiel]

What exactly do you want me to provide a rule citation for?


The effect needs to be "divided" only if it produces a limited amount of benefit that can be exhausted.
Otherwise it effect both recipients equally.


So for polymorph both recipients can assume a new form, but this part needs to be divided:
Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting


Both of these, thanks.

[Tamior]

Both of these, thanks.
I can't, because it's never explicitly explained how "sharing" works when there is an exhaustible benefit associated with the spell. (Well, afaik. Feel free to point to an explicit example in RAW.)

Now, can you provide an explicit rule citation/example for the fact that when a spell effects your familiar via "sharing" the total amount of exhaustible benefit is effectively doubled and each recipient gains a copy?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I can't, because it's never explicitly explained how "sharing" works when there is an exhaustible benefit associated with the spell. (Well, afaik. Feel free to point to an explicit example in RAW.)In other words, You. Are. Making. Stuff. Up.

AKA houserules.


Now, can you provide an explicit rule citation/example for the fact that when a spell effects your familiar via "sharing" the total amount of exhaustible benefit is effectively doubled and each recipient gains a copy?That's easy. I already quoted that part above.


Share Powers (Su)
At the owner’s option, he can have any power (but not any psi-like ability) he manifests on himself also affect his psicrystal. The psicrystal must be within 5 feet of him at the time of the manifestation to receive the benefit. If the power has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the psicrystal if it moves farther than 5 feet away, and will not affect the psicrystal again, even if it returns to its owner before the duration expires.

Additionally, the owner can manifest a power with a target of “You” on his psicrystal (as a touch range power) instead of on himself. The owner and psicrystal cannot share powers if the powers normally do not affect creatures of the psicrystal’s type (construct).Feel free to ignore me again, however.

[Tamior]

That's easy. I already quoted that part above.

Can you, please, highlight for me the part that explicitly says that the effect is doubled/copied even if it's an exhaustible benefit?
Otherwise I would still have to point out the fact that a spell can effect both of you WITHOUT the doubling/copying of the exhaustible benefit for practically any spell.

[Ashiel]

Can you, please, highlight for me the part that explicitly says that the effect is doubled/copied even if it's an exhaustible benefit?
Otherwise I would still have to point out the fact that a spell can effect both of you WITHOUT the doubling/copying of the exhaustible benefit for practically any spell.
Doesn't need to. Says it shares the effect. The word share has meanings that do not mean division even though you can use it to expression a division. The part where it says the power "also affects his psicrystal" is all that is necessary to show otherwise, because the psicrystal receives the effects of the power.

The effects of the power are described by the power.

In this case the effects of the power is:

You suffuse yourself with power, gaining 5 temporary hit points. Using this power again when an earlier manifestation has not expired merely replaces the older temporary hit points (if any remain) with the newer ones.

Augment For every additional power point you spend, the number of temporary hit points you gain increases by 5.
So the effect is that. The psicrystal is affected. End of story.

[Ashiel]

Can you, please, highlight for me the part that explicitly says that the effect is doubled/copied even if it's an exhaustible benefit?
Otherwise I would still have to point out the fact that a spell can effect both of you WITHOUT the doubling/copying of the exhaustible benefit for practically any spell.
There is no such thing as an exhaustible benefit or effect by the way (at least how you've been describing it).

For example, a cure spell does not have a pool of healing that is expended, just like a greatsword or fireball does not have a pool of damage that is expended. The spell's effect simply heals an amount of damage specified by its description.

[Tamior]

Doesn't need to. Says it shares the effect. The word share has meanings that do not mean division even though you can use it to expression a division. The part where it says the power "also affects his psicrystal" is all that is necessary to show otherwise, because the psicrystal receives the effects of the power.

Once again, it's always possible for psicrystal to receive an effect of the power without doubling the total produced benefit.
I. e. for Vigor both owner and the crystal gain the temp HP's, but they are shared: when one takes damage, the remaining amount is reduced for both.

[Ashiel]

Once again, it's always possible for psicrystal to receive an effect of the power without doubling the total produced benefit.
I. e. for Vigor both owner and the crystal gain the temp HP's, but they are shared: when one takes damage, the remaining amount is reduced for both.
No. The effect of the spell grants the psicrystal an amount of temporary hit points. The psicrystal has its own temporary hit points, the psion has his own. Temporary hit points do not work that way.

EDIT: By your logic, if I don't have 1 creature / caster level to grant a +1 bonus to attack and AC with a haste spell, I should be able to dump it all on a single dude because you're going on about non-existing doubling and division. Effects don't work that way.

[Tamior]

No. The effect of the spell grants the psicrystal an amount of temporary hit points. The psicrystal has its own temporary hit points, the psion has his own. Temporary hit points do not work that way.

EDIT: By your logic, if I don't have 1 creature / caster level to grant a +1 bonus to attack and AC with a haste spell, I should be able to dump it all on a single dude because you're going on about non-existing doubling and division. Effects don't work that way.
If you manifest the power twice without sharing, sure. If you share, you share.
Again, your argument here is "but that's not the way power normally works". Well, duh, that's because sharing a power is not exactly the same as manifesting it twice normally.

[Crichton]

Can you, please, highlight for me the part that explicitly says that the effect is doubled/copied even if it's an exhaustible benefit?



Gonna have to point out, as has been pointed out in another rules discussion, that a rule's effects are not defined by what the rule DOESN'T say. So to assume that it has to be double/copied, or else it's split, is, as the other folks have said, adding new houserules to what the rule actually says.


Also, to maybe help clear things up, the rule is 'called' Share Powers' but that's not what the rule actually says. The title isn't the crunch, it's not the text that defines the rule's effects. The word 'share' isn't anywhere in the part of the rule's text that defines that part of the rule's effect, so trying to interpret it using the meaning of the word 'share' isn't called for.

What the rule actually says is that the power 'also affects his psicrystal.'

While that's admittedly open to interpretation, the simplest, least interpretive sense of that is that when the Psion is affected by manifesting Vigor, he receives the benefit the power's description says it gives, and when the psicrystal too is affected by it, it also receives what the power's description says the power does.

[Ashiel]

If you manifest the power twice without sharing, sure. If you share, you share.
Again, your argument here is "but that's not the way power normally works". Well, duh, that's because sharing a power is not exactly the same as manifesting it twice normally.
The psicrystal gains the same benefit of the spell. The benefit of the spell is "you gain this many temporary hit points".

You keep making stuff up that doesn't exist, like pools, and ignoring spell and combat mechanics.

EDIT: No matter how many times you keep saying it, it doesn't make it true. You won't cite any mechanics that say it works differently than the way the rules normally handle it, and you keep making up all these weird exceptions and referencing things that do not exist, such as "pools of effect benefits" or something to that extent.

EDIT 2: Like even your polymorph effect argument was wrong using your own argument. The polymorph effect says the creature heals as though they rested. It doesn't even provide healing. The character and their minion would both recover HP as if they rested a night, and those values are derived from them as not only is that a variable value but it's not even the same for all creatures (some creatures cannot heal naturally, some creatures heal more than normal when they rest because of feats and abilities).

[Tamior]

While that's admittedly open to interpretation, the simplest, least interpretive sense of that is that when the Psion is affected by manifesting Vigor, he receives the benefit the power's description says it gives, and when the psicrystal too is affected by it, it also receives what the power's description says the power does.
That, I agree with. My points (that seem to be so contentious) are, and always have been:
a) That it is, in fact, open to interpretation under RAW.
b) That doubling/copying the effect and sharing/dividing the effect are both viable (as in, non-contradictory) interpretation under RAW. Even if the first is "the simplest".

[Segev]

That, I agree with. My points (that seem to be so contentious) are, and always have been:
a) That it is, in fact, open to interpretation under RAW.
b) That doubling/copying the effect and sharing/dividing the effect are both viable (as in, non-contradictory) interpretation under RAW. Even if the first is "the simplest".

It's only "viable under RAW" if it's equally viable to say that the damage from a full attack is divided evenly between all of the attacks, rather than rolling each one's damage separately, because the "cap" isn't increased.

There is literally nothing in D&D or PF that behaves the way you're suggesting without expressly calling out, in exquisite detail, exactly how the division works.

Share Spells does what it says it does. It doesn't do things it doesn't say it does. It no more "splits" the effect for partial effect on each than it grants the psicrystal or familiar a copy of the spell to cast at a later point in time.

[Tamior]

It's only "viable under RAW" if it's equally viable to say that the damage from a full attack is divided evenly between all of the attacks, rather than rolling each one's damage separately, because the "cap" isn't increased.

There is literally nothing in D&D or PF that behaves the way you're suggesting without expressly calling out, in exquisite detail, exactly how the division works.

Share Spells does what it says it does. It doesn't do things it doesn't say it does. It no more "splits" the effect for partial effect on each than it grants the psicrystal or familiar a copy of the spell to cast at a later point in time.

If that's the case, why Skip Williams here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a) seems to go with the "division" interpretation like it's not a big deal? He wasn't familiar enough with the system..?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If that's the case, why Skip Williams here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a) seems to go with the "division" interpretation like it's not a big deal? He wasn't familiar enough with the system..?Because he uses his own houserules and/or just makes **** up as he goes along without actually reading the rules text (at least for comprehension).

He's notorious for it, in fact.

[Segev]

If that's the case, why Skip Williams here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a) seems to go with the "division" interpretation like it's not a big deal? He wasn't familiar enough with the system..?


Because he uses his own houserules and/or just makes **** up as he goes along without actually reading the rules text (at least for comprehension).

He's notorious for it, in fact.

Yeah, there's no basis in the rules for what he's saying. If you count that article as eratta, then it works as you outline, but otherwise, it's just a recommended house rule. It's not even a very good house rule; it nerfs and complicates to no particularly useful end.

[Tamior]

Share Spells does what it says it does. It doesn't do things it doesn't say it does. It no more "splits" the effect for partial effect on each than it grants the psicrystal or familiar a copy of the spell to cast at a later point in time.
It also does not explicitly say that it fully copies the spell (effectively doubling the benefits from one casting). But somehow this does not seem to prevent the "spell is fully copied when shared" interpretation from being considered RAW.

Anyway, I've exhausted my pool of arguments at this point and the discussion feels like it's going in circles.
The argument seems to burn down to "a spell being fully copied does not need to be explicitly stated, a spell being "divided" does, because "division" is a much less clear mechanic".

[Tamior]

It's not even a very good house rule; it nerfs and complicates to no particularly useful end.
You mean "no particularly useful end" other than stopping quite a few cheesy combos in their tracks? (Like the aforementioned "double the effective HP gains from vigor" trick.)

[Ashiel]

You mean "no particularly useful end" other than stopping quite a few cheesy combos in their tracks? (Like the aforementioned "double the effective HP gains from vigor" trick.)
If you think that's a cheese combo, I've got some great seaside real estate for you in Arizona.

EDIT: That is, it's working entirely as intended. Psi-tanking that was has been a thing since 3.5, and Dreamscarred could have easily nerfed it (as they nerfed a few other things) but didn't, because again it's working as intended.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You mean "no particularly useful end" other than stopping quite a few cheesy combos in their tracks? (Like the aforementioned "double the effective HP gains from vigor" trick.)So you think that getting one-shotted every fight somehow improves one's gaming experience? Or that expending resources in an intelligent manner to reduce the chances of that happening somehow reduces a group's fun quotient?

[Tamior]

If you think that's a cheese combo, I've got some great seaside real estate for you in Arizona.
Well, I'd love to hear more cheesy combos that work at character level 3 using only SRD stuff.
(I actually do, not being sarcastic here.)

[Tamior]

So you think that getting one-shotting every fight somehow improves one's gaming experience? Or that expending resources in an intelligent manner to reduce the chances of that happening somehow reduces a group's fun quotient?
The line between "expending resources in an intelligent manner" and "cheese" is a subjective one.
For one, infinite PP via "bestow power" shenanigans could also be seen as "expending resources in an intelligent manner".

[Ashiel]

The line between "expending resources in an intelligent manner" and "cheese" is a subjective one.
For one, infinite PP via "bestow power" shenanigans could also be seen as "expending resources in an intelligent manner".
You do realize that they actually cut that off, unlike core magic where you can gain potentially unlimited spell slots with wands and such, right?

As for cheesy combos, I'm not sure I can show you more since I don't think psi-tanking is a cheese combo (the power only lasts 1 minute per level, so that's generally only going to be one fight and it doesn't stack with itself, and it costs a minimum of 4 power points to get any benefit at all {3 for share pain and at least 1 for vigor}, and it's short duration makes it somewhat difficult to use as a pre-buff unless it's a "the enemy is on the other side of this door" scenario.

However, soaking lots of direct HP damage isn't particularly hard to do off the SRD. Paladins can take the Fey Foundling feat to get +2 HP/die when affected by any healing effect and achieve massive amounts of swift-action healing. At 2nd level said Paladin with only a +2 Charisma can heal 3d6+6 points of HP damage (average 5.5 per turn) every day without even wasting actions. At 4th level, said Paladin heals 8d6+16 points of HP damage (average 11 per turn) every day without wasting actions. At 6th level, the paladin heals 15d6+30 hit points per day (average 16.5 per turn) without wasting actions. Of course every +1 to the Paladin's Charisma will increase this in a big way, and taking feats like Extra Lay on Hands is super effective like this. At 20th level, the Paladin can heal 80 HP per turn without wasting an action. With a single feat an single class feature. If the Paladin wants to, they can even spend their standard action to double the amount of HP they're recovering by healing again.

Meanwhile, a full powered vigor caps out around +100 temporary HP. Can be dispelled. Takes a standard action. Requires you to spend two of your limited powers known. Must be done before you are attacked (and is wasted if not targeted for damage during the fight), and so on and so forth.

[Tamior]

You do realize that they actually cut that off, unlike core magic where you can gain potentially unlimited spell slots with wands and such, right?

I assume you mean they "cut that off" in PF? Yea, I know, but I was still talking about 3.5

[Segev]

Psi-tanking is one of the few things I'd actually recommend playing a Wilder over a Psion for. Building a physical-focused Wilder is actually rather interesting, and with Simple Weapon Proficiency, you can give them a longspear and let them go to town. They have very few powers known, and 2 of the 11 are going to psi tanking, but you can build a neat "psychic warrior" variant with it. Admittedly, a regular psychic warrior does it a little better, except for the part where the Wilder has more pp and wild surges to throw at it.


"Dividing" needs to be explicit because it requires a lot of extra rules to explain. It needs call-out as to WHAT to divide vs. what not to, and HOW to do the division. "Duplicating" is straight-forward, requiring no more than what's printed to make it clear how it works.

As an example: why isn't Cat's Grace divided, but Cure Light Wounds is? No reason, other than Skip decided hp are split and stat bonuses are not. Why aren't durations split? No reason given. Thus: dividing needs lots more explanation that isn't present, and thus is clearly not what the RAW state (at least when there's a clearer alternate interpretation that requires no extra, unprinted rules to be invented to make it work).

[Tamior]

"Dividing" needs to be explicit because it requires a lot of extra rules to explain. It needs call-out as to WHAT to divide vs. what not to, and HOW to do the division. "Duplicating" is straight-forward, requiring no more than what's printed to make it clear how it works.

As an example: why isn't Cat's Grace divided, but Cure Light Wounds is? No reason, other than Skip decided hp are split and stat bonuses are not. Why aren't durations split? No reason given. Thus: dividing needs lots more explanation that isn't present, and thus is clearly not what the RAW state (at least when there's a clearer alternate interpretation that requires no extra, unprinted rules to be invented to make it work).
Ok, how about this kind of ruling: if a spell provide an exhaustible-via-use benefit, it is divided/shared. Other things are not.

[Segev]

Ok, how about this kind of ruling: if a spell provide an exhaustible-via-use benefit, it is divided/shared. Other things are not.

The fact that you have to make a ruling, while the "duplicated" reading doesn't require one, is your hint that this is a house rule and not actually what the RAW say.

[Tamior]

The fact that you have to make a ruling, while the "duplicated" reading doesn't require one, is your hint that this is a house rule and not actually what the RAW say.
I don't think it's wise for me to jump back onto that what-is-and-is-not-RAW merry-go-round.
Right now I'm simply discussing if this kind of ruling would suffice as a house-rule to explain what is and is not divided.

[Segev]

I don't think it's wise for me to jump back onto that what-is-and-is-not-RAW merry-go-round.
Right now I'm simply discussing if this kind of ruling would suffice as a house-rule to explain what is and is not divided.

Eh, possibly? I mean, "duration" technically falls into that definition, but by context of this thread you clearly don't mean it to.

[Tamior]

Eh, possibly? I mean, "duration" technically falls into that definition, but by context of this thread you clearly don't mean it to.
Well, yes, I mean anything BUT duration itself.

[Segev]

Well, yes, I mean anything BUT duration itself.

Sure. You asked if what you wrote was sufficient. It probably is, especially if you say "except for duration."

[Tamior]

Speaking of psionic tanking, if you go with PF rules for psicrytal replacement (24 hours with no penalty), I guess it's a good idea to keep share pain with psicrystal active "by default" in any kind of highly hostile environment (assuming your psicrytal stays within close range).
At that point vigor giving 10 HP per PP over 5 HP per PP is sure nice, but not exactly game-breaking one way or the other.

[Ashiel]

Speaking of psionic tanking, if you go with PF rules for psicrytal replacement (24 hours with no penalty), I guess it's a good idea to keep share pain with psicrystal active "by default" in any kind of highly hostile environment (assuming your psicrytal stays within close range).
At that point vigor giving 10 HP per PP over 5 HP per PP is sure nice, but not exactly game-breaking one way or the other.
This is true. It's definitely worth it if you have a psicrystal and share pain. Plus, hardness affects magical effects as well, so anything less than 8 points of damage won't harm your psicrystal (because share pain doesn't ignore hardness), making it a pretty resilient little thing.

If you really want to see some psicrystal multiplying love, play a Vitalist with a psicrystal. It costs you a member of your collective to include the psicrystal in it, but you can use them them to deliver some pretty good burst healing by manifesting on yourself, sharing with them, then redirecting the healing to someone else in your collective.

For example, lets say your party has a Fighter and we want to keep him alive. Our Vitalist has him and her psicrystal in her collective. Our vitalist spends 1 PP to manifest natural healing to heal herself 3 hit points. She shares with her psicrystal. She then redirects those heals to the fighter, healing the Fighter 6 HP.

This is one of the reasons Vitalists are actually really good healers. Another reason is because they have synergy with other core healers (they can turn a cleric's channel energy into a thing of absolute beauty).

[Psyren]

Speaking of psionic tanking, if you go with PF rules for psicrytal replacement (24 hours with no penalty), I guess it's a good idea to keep share pain with psicrystal active "by default" in any kind of highly hostile environment (assuming your psicrytal stays within close range).
At that point vigor giving 10 HP per PP over 5 HP per PP is sure nice, but not exactly game-breaking one way or the other.

Yeah that's a common tactic, especially with how long Share Pain lasts. If you're going to be stuck at level 1 for a while though, it'll be some time before you can pull it off.



If you really want to see some psicrystal multiplying love, play a Vitalist with a psicrystal. It costs you a member of your collective to include the psicrystal in it, but you can use them them to deliver some pretty good burst healing by manifesting on yourself, sharing with them, then redirecting the healing to someone else in your collective.

For example, lets say your party has a Fighter and we want to keep him alive. Our Vitalist has him and her psicrystal in her collective. Our vitalist spends 1 PP to manifest natural healing to heal herself 3 hit points. She shares with her psicrystal. She then redirects those heals to the fighter, healing the Fighter 6 HP.

This is one of the reasons Vitalists are actually really good healers. Another reason is because they have synergy with other core healers (they can turn a cleric's channel energy into a thing of absolute beauty).

Another fun tactic with Vitalists is to give them Astral Construct - they have Wis scores and thus can also be added to your collective. This lets you use all kinds of buffs on an already strong meatshield, like Expansion, Animal Affinity, and Physical Acceleration.

[Ashiel]

Oh I love astral construct on a vitalist. Even if you don't use them with your collective, it's nice to have a very broad use power that can be used to support your party when you're not healing them.

I've also enjoyed vitalists in parties with necromancers or necromancers with a dip into vitalist. Being able to milk bloody skeletons or vampire type abilities for health is nice.

[Elkad]

Not taking sides, but that's way inconsistent. If Vigor has a 'pool' of hp to split, then Mage Armor has 'pool' of Armor bonus, why don't they each get +2, in your 'pool split' houserules? This is a really slippery slope, since there's a ton of spells with a fixed numerical benefit that by this logic would be interpreted as a 'pool' and thus split, but even in Skip's article, only some numbers get split, and no real logic as to which is which. He just arbitrarily decides that HP get split, but other numerical bonuses don't? That makes absolutely no sense.

I considered that. Either halving effect, or duration.

Discarded as too fiddly.

[Tamior]

To keep up with level 1 optimization, what would be the best way to spend your first ~1000 gp you've got adventuring?
(Assuming you can't just hire hirelings and you are limited to a couple of animals + a mount.)

Switching normal dogs for whatever animals you campaign/DM allows, I guess, (getting horses, riding dogs, etc)? Getting basic leather armor for said dogs and horses?

Darkwood heavy shield looks nice at +2AC with 0 ACP for just 257 gp. (Maybe darkwood buckler instead, not sure.)
MW Studded leather for +1 Extra AC with 0 ACP for 175 also looks reasonable.
Getting MW crossbow for extra +1 to-hit?

Anything else/better?
Maybe even some cheap magic items, assuming you have UMD to make pretty much anything work (out of combat)? (Let's include all items from MIC here.)
So higher-level scrolls/power-stones that really help early on?

[Anthrowhale]

Buy some area of effect alchemical weapons to deal with spider swarms.

[Ashiel]

To keep up with level 1 optimization, what would be the best way to spend your first ~1000 gp you've got adventuring?
(Assuming you can't just hire hirelings and you are limited to a couple of animals + a mount.)

Switching normal dogs for whatever animals you campaign/DM allows, I guess, (getting horses, riding dogs, etc)? Getting basic leather armor for said dogs and horses?

Darkwood heavy shield looks nice at +2AC with 0 ACP for just 257 gp. (Maybe darkwood buckler instead, not sure.)
MW Studded leather for +1 Extra AC with 0 ACP for 175 also looks reasonable.
Getting MW crossbow for extra +1 to-hit?

Anything else/better?
Maybe even some cheap magic items, assuming you have UMD to make pretty much anything work (out of combat)? (Let's include all items from MIC here.)
So higher-level scrolls/power-stones that really help early on?
Consumables like potions, oils, and stones for particular uses can be helpful. This includes alchemical items like antoxin and tanglefoot bags. Feather tokens can be useful. Elixirs (such as elixir of hiding) are pretty pricey at this level but might be worth the investment in some cases (having a +10 bonus to checks such as Perception or Stealth for 1 hour is pretty good), and you might instead want to toss a few coins in as a group to buy some of those for either the weaker members of your party (such as sneaking a heavily armored knight through a place) or to push your specialist into auto-succeed territory (having a scout with +10 Perception and Stealth helps to avoid bad luck).

Buying some iron coins (iron is 1 sp / lb. which means 50 iron coins would be 1 sp (worth 0.002 G each). These can be a fine investment in the off chance your party encounters a rust monster (they prefer cheap ferrous metals like iron over finer materials, so chuck some coins and run away from it or alpha strike it while it's distracted eating the coins). They might also come in handy if you need to wedge something in a door hinge to keep it open or shut, or to have something to drop down holes to get an idea of how deep they are (casting light on them first is even better).

Having some rope isn't a bad idea. Especially if you can have your psicrystal anchor it for you (they have a climb speed and enough Strength to carry the end of the rope generally) which can help with climbing over obstacles and such.