Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

This OP is currently full of placeholder answers. Check back in a week.

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy a Start Collecting! box and your favourite Index.
Or, if you're specifically into Primaris Marines or Death Guard, GW has conveniently set up a number of 'beginner boxes' to get you started.

What's Dark Imperium?
Dark Imperium contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

Comments on Dark Imperium forces.

How much does it cost?
Placeholder Answer.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army. Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
The recommended minimum is 750.
However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358)

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1000 Points with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

Comments on Power Rating.

What's the difference between Power Rating and Points Cost?
...A lot.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives? :smallfurious:
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want at least anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. Don't forget that not all Terrain is 'equal', and you will definitely want a few pieces of terrain that block Line of Sight.

I don't like using Unique Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Unique Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Unique Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Unique Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Especially if you play Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20355942&postcount=1425). :smallwink:

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Is there such a thing as a 'Bad' Codex?
Not exactly. There are certainly bad, individual units. But, on the whole, every Faction is playable. However, you must remember that Allies are an intended part of the game - even if you, personally don't like them. If your Faction's entire army list is lacking in a certain area, you may have to consider whether or not it was intended to be that way, and you will have to consider whether or not to bring Allies into your army.

Helpful Army Building Guides
Adeptus Custodes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23089844&postcount=368) Out of date
Adeptus Mechanicus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23212682&postcount=799) Out of date
Astra Militarum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23229442&postcount=860) by LeSwordfish
Chaos Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22323358&postcount=680) by LeSwordfish
Craftworlds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23102387&postcount=394) by Forum Explorer
Dark Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22682254&postcount=1287) Out of date
Death Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425277&postcount=1268) by LeSwordfish
Deathwatch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23067706&postcount=257) Out of date
Drukhari (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22979092&postcount=1056) by Gauntlet
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22290159&postcount=518) Out of date
Necrons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22958139&postcount=936) by Requizen
Officio Assassinorum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23783027&postcount=880) (White Dwarf, March 2019)
Space Marines Part I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23046630&postcount=154) - Part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23046633&postcount=155)

Building on a Budget
Adeptus Mechanicus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22952114&postcount=902) Outdated
Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22611520&postcount=1068)

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz
Solar Auxilia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471119&postcount=1234) by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18522411&postcount=1421) by Vaz
Questoris Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471124&postcount=1235) by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17232158&postcount=1308)
Legion Special Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17243267&postcount=1322)
The Primarchs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17250802&postcount=1330)

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333)
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779)
* VIII: You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248423)
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265917)
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282842)
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot)
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot)
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-(Dice))
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388399-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXII-I-C-Tan-Has-Cheese#post18535364)
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411374-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIII-I-Do-Not-Like-Green-Tides-and-Hann)
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444969-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIV-And-They-Shall-Know-No-Fluff&p=19863366&viewfull=1#post19863366)
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476885-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXV-Friends-Are-Better-Than-Wraithknights)
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503224-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVII-Tyranids-Finally-Found-A-Friend)
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509492-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVIII-Drasius-Can-t-Have-Nice-Things)
* XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517336-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIX-Ro-Ro-Ro-Your-Boute)
* XXX: Imperium After Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525424-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXX-Imperium-After-Dark)
* XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530992-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXXI-Haters-Gonna-Burn)
* XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538281-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXXII-I-Got-99-Guardsmen-and-Morale-Killed-One)
* XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546769-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIII-Only-in-Nerf-Does-Duty-End)
* XXXIV: Situation Normal, All FAQ'd Up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557261-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIV-Situation-Normal-All-FAQ-d-Up)
* XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568998-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXV-4-Pages-of-Rules-46-Pages-of-Pointless-Bickering)

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22597012&postcount=924) for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

[Forum Explorer]

So as I mentioned I've got a tournament coming up soon. Here's what I decided to go with:

Battalion Detachment (Ulthwe)
HQ
Warlock: 55
Eldrad: 135

Troops
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
10 Guardians: 80
10 Guardians: 80

Elites
5 Fire Dragons with Exarch: 120


Heavy Support:
Falcon with pulse Laser, 2 Shurikan Cannons: 130
5 Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher: 140

Battalion Detachment (Biel-Tan)
HQ
Spiritseer: 65
Avatar: 220

Troops
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58

Elites
7 Howling Banshees with Exarch with Executioner: 94

Fast Attack
1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60
1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60

Outrider Detachment (Saim-Hann)
HQ
Autarch Skyrunner with Nova Lance: 105

Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
1 Vyper with 2 Eldar Missile Launchers: 80


Total: 2000


The Missions will be ITC.

[LansXero]

So as I mentioned I've got a tournament coming up soon. Here's what I decided to go with:

Battalion Detachment (Ulthwe)
HQ
Warlock: 55
Eldrad: 135

Troops
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
10 Guardians: 80
10 Guardians: 80

Elites
5 Fire Dragons with Exarch: 120


Heavy Support:
Falcon with pulse Laser, 2 Shurikan Cannons: 130
5 Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher: 140

Outrider Detachment (Biel-Tan)
HQ
Spiritseer: 65
Avatar: 220

Troops
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58

Elites
7 Howling Banshees with Exarch with Executioner: 94

Fast Attack
1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60
1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60

Outrider Detachment (Saim-Hann)
HQ
Autarch Skyrunner with Nova Lance: 105

Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
1 Vyper with 2 Eldar Missile Launchers: 80


Total: 2000


The Missions will be ITC.

Just got done winning a 2k game vs Crimson Fists. Your list is so very different than what I would play, that Im eager to see how well you do :). So lets hope the strands of fate favor you, and the primitives be left in the dust.

[Saambell]

So as I mentioned I've got a tournament coming up soon. Here's what I decided to go with:

Battalion Detachment (Ulthwe)
HQ
Warlock: 55
Eldrad: 135

Troops
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
10 Guardians: 80
10 Guardians: 80

Elites
5 Fire Dragons with Exarch: 120


Heavy Support:
Falcon with pulse Laser, 2 Shurikan Cannons: 130
5 Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher: 140

Outrider Detachment (Biel-Tan)
HQ
Spiritseer: 65
Avatar: 220

Troops
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch with two Catapults: 58

Elites
7 Howling Banshees with Exarch with Executioner: 94

Fast Attack
1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60
1 Vyper with 2 Shurkian Cannons: 60

Outrider Detachment (Saim-Hann)
HQ
Autarch Skyrunner with Nova Lance: 105

Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
1 Vyper with 2 Eldar Missile Launchers: 80


Total: 2000


The Missions will be ITC.

Is that Biel-Tandetachment supposed to be an Outrider, or is that meant to be a Battalion?
Otherwise, in my very non-skilled thinkings: you seem to have only 40 troops models, will that be enough? Im guessing the Fire Dragons go in the Falcon, assuming I'm remembering it being able to transport units correctly. Any character to go with them? I'm guessing the warlock if any, as it can buff them after they disembark. You only seem to have heavy weapons on 4 of your models, and they cant really hide behind other models, so its possible they can be picked off. I know eldar can fake heavy weapons with their basic guns, but its still risky to have all your big reliable fire power on that few of models.

Otherwise it seems really cool, and scary to be at the barrel end of that many guns. Hope the tournament goes well for you.

[Forum Explorer]

Just got done winning a 2k game vs Crimson Fists. Your list is so very different than what I would play, that Im eager to see how well you do :). So lets hope the strands of fate favor you, and the primitives be left in the dust.

Thanks. You typically play more competitive then me, even at the most extreme, my meta is relatively soft.
Here are my opponents for example:
1. Dark Eldar
2. Ultramarines with Guilliman
3. Tyranids (my cousin)]
4. Thousands Sons
5. Imperial Guard Space Wolves
6. Craftworld Eldar (me)
7. Ultramarines
8. Iron Hands/Grey Knights :smallconfused:

Not entirely ordered, as there are a lot of ties in the top 8. The exact ranking won't matter anyways. The Imperial Guard player dropped out (he's not up to a tournament), so the replacement player is Space Wolves. The Iron Hands/Grey Knights player is a complete mystery. How he got to that ranking, nobody knows. It's weird, even for my meta. Particularly considering there was a Death Guard player running Mortarion and a Knight Castellan.


Is that Biel-Tandetachment supposed to be an Outrider, or is that meant to be a Battalion?
Otherwise, in my very non-skilled thinkings: you seem to have only 40 troops models, will that be enough? Im guessing the Fire Dragons go in the Falcon, assuming I'm remembering it being able to transport units correctly. Any character to go with them? I'm guessing the warlock if any, as it can buff them after they disembark. You only seem to have heavy weapons on 4 of your models, and they cant really hide behind other models, so its possible they can be picked off. I know eldar can fake heavy weapons with their basic guns, but its still risky to have all your big reliable fire power on that few of models.

Otherwise it seems really cool, and scary to be at the barrel end of that many guns. Hope the tournament goes well for you.

It was meant to be a battalion yes. Yeah, the Fire Dragons can be in the Falcon. I could put a character inside, but there isn't much point to it. I typically don't buff them, preferring to buff either the Shining Spears or Dark Reapers. Besides my best buff (Doom), works on everyone shooting the target. Dark Reapers can move and shoot without penalty, so what I do is I hide them in ruins. They pop to the top floor, fire, and I activate a stratagem to make them move after shooting to hide them away again. If they catch my Dark Reapers, my Vyper with two missile launchers can do the same thing. My other anti-tank is my Avatar and Autarch. The Fire Dragons are mostly a bonus, and yeah, I'm not expecting the Falcon to live long.

It should, the only horde player is my cousin, and he prefers big beasties, usually. Well, the Thousand Son player might have a ton of Tzaangors, I have no idea. The Dark Eldar player has 90 troops though.

[Brookshw]

Bookmarked

[Bobby Baratheon]

Silly question: On my Flyrant, I can take the Warlord trait Alien Cunning, which lets me redeploy him after the Deployment phase ends at the beginning of the first battle round. In the Deployment Phase, I am required to set up at least half of the points of my army on the battlefield. Let's say I comply with this, putting about ~900 points of stuff in reserve in a 2k list and the rest (including the Flyrant) onto the battlefield. Then, with the free redeploy, I put my Flyrant into reserves. Over half my army is in reserves, but it's no longer the Deployment Phase (in which I complied with the rule). Is this legal?

[Turalisj]

Flyrant is not on the field to be redployed.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Flyrant is not on the field to be redployed.

In the example I'd be deploying him normally (not into reserve) in regular deployment, then use Alien Cunning to redeploy him into reserve.

[Cheesegear]

...but it's no longer the Deployment Phase...

I'll let you read Swooping Assault again, and then let you answer the question.
The key hint is that you just answered it.

[Destro_Yersul]

Played a game with my friends. It was pretty massive - 7000 points on each side, and my side got thoroughly stomped. Unfortunately I didn't have much chance to see what all my stuff could do, because I blew my first two psychic phases to terrible dice rolls, and the heldrake died without ever getting to do more than fire once.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Imperial Knights
Honour Through Fealty

Questor Allegiance: Basically, you're going to pick up either <Imperialis> or <Mechanicus>. This will make a major difference in what Relics and Stratagems you can use.

Might of the Knight Worlds
If your Detachment isn't a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (SHAD), one of your non-Armiger Knights gains the <Character> Keyword. This has positives and negatives. On the one hand, your Knight can Heroically Intervene (however remember to leave room for your massive base size). On the other hand, your massive T8/5+ 20 Wound model can no longer block for other Characters because Characters don't block for other Characters.

That said, if you aren't going to take a SHAD, you only need one non-Armiger Knight to get CPs. Or you can take three for even more CPs.

If your Detachment isn't a SHAD, you also gain the benefits of Household Traditions. That said, it's important to remember that you still get your Keywords in a SHAD, which means despite not getting the Tradition, a Knight in a SHAD can still use relevant Keyword-specific Warlord Traits, Relics and Stratagems.

Household Traditions
Questor Imperialis
Terryn; When you Advance or Charge, roll an extra D6 and discard the lowest. This is a big deal because of how House Terryn plays.
Griffith; +1 Attack if you Charge or Intervene. Additionally, every single Knight you own can now Intervene. Unfortunately, this House pretty much sucks, because in order for this Tradition to work, you have to make it into Melee in the first place. Also, as previously mentioned, Heroically Intervening with a Knight isn't exactly easy due to the base size.
Hawkshroud; Count as having double Wounds for the purposes of degradation. This is actually really helpful, as Knights are typically fire magnets.
Cadmus; Re-roll 1s to wound in the Fight phase against models with 12 or less Wounds. This actually has a lot of usefulness, because '12 or less wounds' covers pretty much everything in the game except for the larger Vehicles - and opposing Knights. The issue is, of course, as always, getting into Melee in the first place.
Mortan; +1 to hit in the Fight phase, in the first turn of combat.
Questor Mechanicus
Raven; Heavy weapons are Assault weapons. Advance and shoot with no penalties.
Taranis; Ignore Wounds (6+). Not as useful as it looks. Even if your Knights are fire magnets - which they are.
Krast; Re-roll to hit in the first turn of combat. In addition, re-roll to hit in the Fight phase against <Titanic> units...Like, all the time.
Vulker; Re-roll to hit with ranged weapons against the closest enemy unit. This is really good, or really terrible. It depends how your opponent plays.

Knights. Like. The Fight Phase.

Freeblades
Even in a SHAD, you still get your stuff. Pick a single Quality, or randomly roll twice. Then, for Burdens, either choose two, or randomly roll once. Every turn, you have to make a Ld test, if you fail, you get stuck with your Burdens until your next turn.

Qualities
1. Re-roll 1s to hit against units with 10 or more models.
2. Re-roll 1s to hit against your opponent's Warlord. Additionally, Objective Secured.
3. Heroically Intervene (6").
4. Roll a d6. Get a random bonus that may or may not work with the Knight class that you've chosen.
5. +1W and Ld. What the ****'s that gonna do?
6. Get an extra re-roll per round.

The only one that's actually any good is #1. Is that worth giving up your <Household> Keyword? **** no.
At least neither Canis Rex or Sir Hekhtur goof'd and picked bad ones.

Burdens - Remember, this only apply if you fail your Ld test (9).
1. Cool beans. You're done for the turn.
2. Cool beans. You're done for the turn.
3. This isn't so bad, as you hit on more than just '6'...And negs to hit actually work in your favor. :smallwink:
4. Can only declare attacks and Charges against the closest enemy unit. This sucks hard. Or maybe it doesn't.
5. Can't Fall Back and BS6+. This doesn't seem so bad. Except that Falling Back is really important for Knights, as it lets them super jump. But hey, if you're not going to use that extremely tactical move and you're not interested in having a Knight that shoot (e.g; Gallant). Then it's fine.
6. Must move towards closest enemy, and must declare a Charge against every unit within 12" - eat Overwatch.

3 and 4 are probably your go-tos. Never, ever pick 1 or 2. Both Canis Rex and Hekhtur picked #4.

At the end of the day, you pick Freeblades to forge a narrative. You don't pick them 'cause they're good.

Warlord Traits
1. Once per game, re-roll Damage or a Saving Throw. Also, +1 CP. ...So...Nothing.
2. 4++ against ranged weapons.
3. +1 Attack is nothing.
4. +2 Advance and Charge Aura. This is huge - for reasons explained later.
5. When you roll a '6' to wound for one of your weapons, do an additional Mortal Wound. Whatever.
6. Enemy units get -1 or -2 to their Ld...So...Nothing.

Terryn; Re-roll Charges.
Griffith; When you complete a Charge, on a 4+ the enemy unit takes D3 Mortal Wounds.
Hawkshroud; +1 to hit against a selected unit for the entire game.
Cadmus; Damage in the Fight phase is reduced by 1.
Mortan; Your opponent has -1 to hit from 18" away. Not bad...But you have to be Mortan to get it. :smallfrown:

Raven; +1 to Saves against attacks with AP-1...So basically you ignore weapons with AP-1. Except you kill Knights by targeting them with -2.
Taranis; '6' to wound in the Shooting phase causes an additional AP. Not bad.
Krast; Re-roll 1s to hit.
Vulker; Wound rolls of 3 or less always fail. Basically...3s fail to wound. Which sucks for Blood Angels and people who spam Lascannons.

Ultimately, Ion Bulwark is always going to be your main Warlord Trait, unless you picked Landstrider because you're doing a thing.

Tactical Objectives
11. Hold the Line combined with Area Denial. Except you do have the option of achieving one or the other.
12. A <Knight Character> has to destroy an enemy Character in the Fight phase.
13. Make a successful Charge - or Charges - using a <Knight>.
14. Gain a VP per <Vehicle> or <Monster> destroyed by a <Knight>.
15. Your opponent gets to give you a DefObX card that must be Defended by an <Imperial Knight>. Remove this card from your deck every time.
16. Your opponent gets to pick a unit in their army that you have to destroy using an <Imperial Knight> unit. Think about removing this one from your deck.

If you plan on having a Knight as your Warlord, you may want to strongly consider having Melee-orientated Knights in your army list.

Ion Aegis; For 2 CPs, all <Imperium> units within 6" gain the benefit of a <Dominus> Knight's invulnerable.

Noble Sacrifice; For 2 CPs, explode on a 4+. Not really worth it on non-Dominus Knights.

Thunderstomp; After one of your Titanic units Fights, roll a 4+, the enemy unit takes D3 Mortal Wounds.

Skyreaper Protocols; Armiger Helverins re-roll to hit against units with <Fly>. Can be extremely useful.

Rotate Ion Shields; +1 to your Invulnerable save. Very good.

Heirlooms of the Household; Yep. Remember that for the purposes of Exalted Court, each of your Knight Detachments may already start with a Character.

Exalted Court; You can give more non-Armiger Knights the <Character> Keyword, and, additionally, you may give them a Warlord Trait. This Stratagem is very, very strong. Especially combined with Heirlooms.

Pack Hunters; After one of your Armiger Warglaives completes a Charge, other friendly Warglaives within 12" can re-roll to Charge. Not bad.

Oathbreaker Guidance System; For 3 CPs, one of your Shieldbreaker Missiles can ignore Line of Sight, and also target Characters. Considering that Shieldbreakers are already AP-4 and ignore Invulnerable saves, a lucky Damage roll can potentially win you the game on Turn 1. There's an extremely good reason that this Stratagem is 3 CPs, and most people on the receiving end will tell you that it should be 4 or even 5. This is extremely strong when combined with Order of Companions (House Raven), for a combined total of 6 CPs. Hope you brought your CP banks.

Full Tilt; For 2 CPs, Advance and Charge in the same turn. This is exceptionally strong when combined with the House Terryn Tradition, and the Landstrider Warlord Trait.

Devastating Reach; It actually costs a CP to attack models on the first floor of a Ruin. :smallsigh:

Chainsweep; After Fighting with a Reaper Chainsword, roll a 6 for every enemy model within 3" - they take a Mortal Wound.

Death Grip; Another extremely strong Stratagem that blows the Stratagem right above it, straight out of the competition. After you Fight, make an additional attack. If you hit, do D3 Mortal Wounds. Make an opposed Strength test (Knights have S8, the highest base in the game). If your opponent fails, they take another D3 Mortal Wounds. Repeat until your opponent's model either dies, or succeeds the Strength test. This Stratagem is so brutal it's not even funny. For 1 CP, you get to kill practically any single non-Vehicle model in the game. All's you have to do is hit. You can be House Mortan or Krast. But WS2+ with a CP re-roll is fine enough.

Bonded Oathsmen; Armiger Knights can perform Heroic Interventions if a non-Armiger was Charged within 6".

Questor Imperialis
Ironhail Heavy Stubbers; Change the AP of all Heavy Stubbers in the entire Detachment to AP-1. This Stratagem is useful when you're spamming Armigers, Knight Paladins, and Knight Crusaders with Rapid-Fire Battle Cannons. It doesn't sound that good. But it's only 1 CP, and it does affect your entire Detachment...So the more Heavy Stubbers you have, the better it is.
Valiant Last Stand; If your Knight doesn't explode when it dies, it can Shoot or Fight again as if it had 1 wound left.
Sally Forth!; An Armiger unit (so, up to 3 of them) can be placed into Reinforcements and arrive from any table edge. This can be very strong. So, because it's 3 CPs, make sure you're getting your points' worth - Armigers come in Squadrons.

Slayers of Shadows; A <Mortan> unit gets to ignore modifiers to hit in the Shooting phase. Nice.
Glory in Honour; A <Terryn> unit Fights again immediately. This Stratagem sets itself apart because it happens immediately, before your opponent gets to attack, it doesn't happen at the end of the phase. For 3 CPs this is very well worth it.
Dragonslayer; A <Griffith> model gets +1 to wound against models with 10 or more wounds. You don't need to pay 2 CPs for this. Wounding opposing models is never really Knights' problem.
Bio-Scryer Cogitator Array; A <Cadmus> model can shoot at anything that sets up within 12". This one costs 3 CPs, because you're not pulling -1 to hit.
Staunch Allies; When your opponent declares a Charge against an <Imperium> unit within 12" of a <Hawkshroud> unit, pay 2 CPs, and your Knight can Overwatch as well. Additionally, the model can Heroically Intervene 2D6". The first part is pretty good. The second? ...Not so much. As previously mentioned, the bigger Knights can't really Heroically Intervene because Terrain and model-placement will rarely ever let them do that. Worse, is the fact that the movement is random.

However, additionally, <Mechanicus> Knights gain another slight benefit because of how they interact with Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus. However, due to the AdMech book, not really being that good, you shouldn't really take that into consideration over the benefits of Stratagems and Relics. However, if you have decided that you'll like to be a Mechanicus House...That's cool. You have a few extra options.

Questor Mechanicus
Benevolence of the Machine God; Ignore Mortal Wounds (5+) for a phase. Normally, Stratagems like this only work in the Psychic phase. But you can actually do this one whenever you want, multiple times per turn. Particularly against armies like Death Guard who do Mortal Wounds both in the Psychic and in the Fight phase.
Machine Spirit Resurgent; At the start of the turn, one of your Knights may spend the whole turn in the 'top row' of its damage table.
Cognis Heavy Stubbers; Garbage.

Order of Companions; For 3 CPs, a <Raven> unit re-rolls all 1s during the entire shooting phase; Number of shots, to hit, to wound and Damage. This can be extremely strong.
Our Darkest Hour; When a <Taranis> Knight dies and doesn't explode; On a 4+ get back up. Since Stratagems are used per phase, not per turn, a Knight can potentially get up two or three times in the same turn. However, for 3 CPs using this Stratagem multiple times in the same turn is extremely CP hungry.
Saturation Bombardment; When a <Vulker> unit rolls an unmodified 6 to hit in the Shooting phase, do 2 hits.
Controlled Aggression; When a <Krast> unit rolls an unmodified 6 to hit in the Fight phase, do 2 hits. Or, against <Chaos> units, 3 hits.

Sanctuary; Makes your Invulnerable work in Melee. This will almost always be your main Heirloom, as in Melee are where Knights are weakest - and even then, not even that weak!

Ravager; This Relic is super strong. However, the big problem with Ravager is that to get it...You need a Reaper Chainsword. When it comes to comparing Chainsweep vs. Death Grip...The Thunderstrike Gauntlets are just better. Speaking of which...

The Paragon Gauntlet; This is by far the best Heirloom in the entire book...On the right model. For any model that isn't a Gallant, go with Sanctuary. On the surface, it's just a Thunderstrike that doesn't take the neg to hit, right? Sure it is. But not taking negs to hit is really important, when you're WS2, and you're trying to use Death Grip. At this point we can pretty much stop, because all the best Heirlooms are the first three...

Armour of the Sainted Ion; 2+ Save. This is good for Dominus Knights who typically don't like getting into Melee. However, getting into Melee isn't always your choice, and suddenly you wish you'd had Sanctuary. At the end of the day, Knights don't need a 2+ Save.

Endless Fury; 14+(14/6) = 2 extra shots, plus 2 extra hits. So for the price of blowing your Heirloom slot, pick up 4 extra attacks over a normal Gatling Cannon. Not really worth it.

Judgement; No.

Skyshield; Hell no.

Questor Imperialis
Helm of the Nameless Warrior; You take this for 'friendly' games where you want to take a Knight, but you don't hate your friends so much that you take a Knight Gallant.
Banner of Macharius Triumphant; It's a nice idea. But, if you're using <Imperium> Allies, they shouldn't even really be taking Morale tests anyway, and if you want to hold Objectives, do it the normal way - spam cheap Infantry. Don't blow your Heirloom on something that sucks.
Traitor's Pyre; This one is okay. Again, if you've picked up the Knight Valiant, that's fine. Re-rolling to wound makes it slightly better.
Thunder of Voltoris; Look, if you're running Rapid-Fire Battle Cannons, you're doing it wrong. If you're running <Terryn> RFBCs, you're doing it double wrong. If you're blowing your Heirloom on a House Terryn RFBC...Something is wrong.
Mark of the Lance; It's <Griffith>'s Warlord Trait, except better.
Angel's Grace; This is the only reason to play <Hawkshroud>. It protects your Knight against Psychic Mortal Wounds - which happens to be the worst match-up for Knights. Very much worth taking over Sanctuary, even if you do plan on getting your Knight into Melee.
The Hunter's Eye; <Cadmus> model ignores Cover. Remember what this was a White Scars Relic?
Honour's Bite; <Mortan> Chainsword that isn't as good as Ravager. Next.

Questor Mechanicus
Mark of the Omnissiah; Regen wounds per turn. Not worth it. Either your opponent plinks away at you dealing very little damage anyway. Or your Knight is so blasted that healing 1 - even D3 - Wounds wont help.
The Helm Dominatus; This is actually really good, if you're planning to run Armigers. Either because you're running solo-Knights (strongly not recommended), or you're making a Super-Heavy Detachment using a single Titanic Knight and multiple Armigers. Very useful. Rather than making your individual Knight win more (e.g; The Paragon Gauntlet), you can force multiply your Armigers which is always handy.
Cawl's Wrath; Nope.
The Banner Inviolate; <Raven> models get re-roll 1s to hit in the Fight phase. It's like The Helm Dominatus, but you don't need to take Armigers.
Fury of Mars; It's a Thermal Cannon that can roll an extra D6 on Damage all of the time, instead of only under half range. 'It has its uses', sure. That is, it goes on a Knight Crusader, and that's it, where it can sort of match the range of the Gatling Cannon on the other arm. Do not ever put 'Fury on a Knight Errant. You're using your Errant totally wrong.
The Headsman's Mark; <Krast> gets +1 Damage against models with 10 wounds or more. +2 against <Titanic> units. This can be really strong...Or it can do nothing at all.
The Auric Mask; Your <Vulker> model can go jump off a cliff, and taking the dumb Heirloom with it.

Armiger Helverin: Helverins are great. Mathematically, they output more firepower than an Avenger Gatling Cannon, and dunk on Rapid-Fire Battle Cannons. So, take that for what you will. However, that's on a Damage-per-point basis, so it only works if you actually invest the same amount of points. That is, for you to replace a Knight Warden in your army list, you must do it using two Armigers. Not one. Still, with the way that the Knights' Codex is set up, Helverins don't Melee very well. So their main role in the Codex is to be outsourced to other Factions to make almost every <Imperium> Heavy Support and almost all Dreadnoughts totally useless.

Helverins also go great with a Knight Warden/Crusader or Dominus with The Helm Dominatus (Mechanicus). However, since these are shooty Knights, they shouldn't be your Warlord's Faction, which means blowing a CP on Heirlooms of the Household.

Armiger Warglaive: Slightly cheaper than the Helverin - already off to a good start. Warglaives come with super-rad Chain-cleaves that are either straight-up Thunder Hammers, or, they have a truckload of S6 attacks at AP-2. 'Always bring Warglaives'. Don't know what else to say. If your Knight is a Warlord, they want to complete Charges, they want to fight in Melee. They go well with almost every House Tradition.
Sally Forth! (Imperialis) works great.

Remember, Heavy Stubbers are Heavy weapons. Yes, they're cheaper than the Meltagun. But you're also taking -1 to hit every time you move.

Knight Preceptor: The Las-Impulsor is great. Unfortunately, you're paying 100 extra points for it, which also includes the ability to give Armigers within 6" re-roll 1s to hit. So, yeah. You're basically paying an extra 25-35 Points over a normal Questoris Knight just to hand out re-roll 1s to Armigers. They're just not that good. Armigers don't need the help.

Questoris Knights: T8, 24 Wounds, 3+ Save, 5+ Invulnerable. Yep. What else do you want? Reaper Chainswords are cheaper, but Thunderstrike Gauntlets enable for The Paragon Gauntlet, with Death Grip. So, really, you'll only ever need one model in your army with a Thunderstrike Gauntlet, and it's really obvious what that model should be. Other than that, you're basically just going to end up what ranged weapon you want.
Knight Paladin: The Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon looks really good...Right up until you see 'D3 Damage', and for 100 Points. No.
Knight Errant: The Thermal Cannon 'does the job' you think it does. Getting within 18" of anything is super easy if you're a Knight, and if you think that an Errant doesn't do well against lots of Infantry models? Well, that's what the Titanic Feet are for - and they're free - and even then, Knights are still Super-Heavies and can Fall Back and Charge whenever they want.
Knight Warden: The Avenger Gatling Cannon always has 12 shots, and always does 2 Damage. The trade-off to the RFBC is that an AGC doesn't wound opposing Vehicles on 3s and 4s. But that's okay, because that's why you always have 12 shots. Now, if your RFBC can reliably roll higher than 9 (yeah, right), then its bonkers. Ideally, the '1' Damage rolls should be averaged out by the '3' rolls...Against single targets. But against heavy units (e.g; Blightlords, Custodes, Shining Spears, etc.) you can't afford to be rolling 1s and 2s, even if the next roll is a 5+. 1+3 = 2 Damage. Because this isn't Age of Sigmar where Damage carries over and everything is easy-mode. So, while the Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon can hit single targets really hard if it rolls hot, the Avenger Gatling Cannon is more consistent, more often - even against single targets - for less points.
Knight Crusader: Now, unlike the Paladin/Warden debate, you don't have to choose one or the other. Get both! However, the reasoning behind taking the RFBC over the AGC, is that it works better against single targets, right? ...Well, that's where the Thermal Cannon comes in, again, for less points. So, between the AGC - and Titanic Feet - the Knight Crusader still works very well against massed Infantry, even if the other hand has a Thermal Cannon on it. If your opponents are all-hordes, all-the-time, then sure. Run the RFBC and AGC. However, in most peoples' experiences, almost every horde in the game has a few 'big' models that actually walk around and do Damage. So...Yeah. Don't use the Knight Paladin, and don't use the RFBC.
Take the Hull weapons if you want. Except don't.

Knight Gallant: The Knight Gallant gets its own section. That's just how 'not the same' it is. For starters, it's 40 Points less than even the Knight Warden. It's roughly 10% cheaper than all other Knights. 10% off! What a deal! However, not only that, but a Knight Gallant also has a extra attack (or three, if using Titanic Feet), and hits using WS2. So, in essence, the Gallant is the cheapest Knight, and the best Knight in Melee, in a Codex which loves having Knights in Melee. The Knight Gallant is the epitome of what the Knights' Codex wants to you to do...For the cheapest points.
But let's also have a look at a particular tactic that's currently ruining the game (that's not a joke, if you do this, you're an a*hole);
Landstrider: Warlord Trait. +2" to Advance and Charge. Before you've rolled any dice, add +4" to your distance. So far, your Knight is moving 16" on Turn 1. This is important, because Knights can use Exalted Court to give Warlord Traits, even when they're not the Warlord.
Full Tilt: For 2 CPs, you're Advancing and Charging in the same turn. Now, on average, you'll roll a 3.5 to Advance, and a 7 to Charge. 12+3.5+7+4 = 25-26" Charge. That actually gives you a 1" grace on your dice rolls, even in the full 24" Deployment maps. Not to mention the 18" Deployment maps. Now, if you stopped here, you'd be fine. First-turn Charge. Lots of armies do that. You need only a tiny bit of luck, and you're blowing 3 CPs to do it. It's at least possible to fail, slightly less than half the time (on 24" maps, on 18" maps you're done). 20-Genestealer blobs can make a 40" Charge. What's the problem?
House Terryn; Roll an extra D6 discard the lowest when Advancing and Charging. Cool. Now your averages are slightly higher. So, now you're all but guaranteed that Turn 1 Charge. Not even finished...
Glory in Honour! House Terryn, Fight immediately again. Not at the end of the phase. This is brutal if you've declared a Charge on multiple units - which you should have, because they're hitting on 6s and you're T8 anyway.
The Paragon Gauntlet + Death Grip.
Overall you've probably used somewhere between 2 and 7 CPs. On/Before Turn 1. Hope your army has 14 CPs, minimum...Oh wait, that's easy!

Canis Rex: For even more points than a Knight Preceptor, lose the ability to buff Armigers and gain a lame ability to bring <Imperium> models back during the Morale phase...Barely ever. If Canis Rex doesn't explode, you get to have a fruity little Character running around the battlefield with a S5, AP-2, D2 Pistol. He's just...Not worth it. He's a fun idea. But unfortunately he's way over-costed (because Preceptors are over-costed to begin with) and doesn't do even that much. To make matters worse, he's a <Freeblade> which means that he's taking a Leadership test every turn to not do something you probably don't want to do. The Charging the closest unit is normal. Shooting the closest unit, with a Las-Impulsor, is probably not going to be very ideal.

Can GW please think of any animal other than Wolves? That'd be great.

Knight Castellan: The Plasma Decimator is equivalent to the Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon on the smaller Knights. However, the main headbuster on the Castellan is the Volcano Lance... Pick a single target and kill it. You've got a whole bunch of other weapons, too. But they all pale in comparison to the Volcano Lance. You're basically a Shadowsword with a better BS and an Invulnerable save. If you also have a bunch of CPs - somehow - fire off those Oathbreaker Guidance System'd Shieldbreaker Missiles every turn.

Knight Valiant: Which a much shorter range than the Castellan, the Valiant makes itself that much more vulnerable. The Conflagaration will kill pretty much anything it's pointed at, whilst the Thundercoil Harpoon will make a mess of pretty much everything. With the Shieldbreakers and the Twin Meltaguns it has all the same secondary weapons - including Oathbreakers - that the Castellan has, so it will still churn out a ton of firepower if your opponent lets it.
However, with the shorter range, the Valiant's WS4 really does matter. Hopefully you roll a lot of shots on that Conflagration Cannon, and you'd be hope for a lot that your opponent doesn't 'No Overwatch'. The bane of Valiants' existence are Blood Angel Smash Captains.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!




Guide to Index: Renegade Knights
Questor Traitorus

Renegade Knight Lance: You'll want to pick up at least one non-Armiger Knight. With a pair of Armigers, you'll get the 3 Command Points. Without at least one <Titanic> unit in your Detachment, you get nothing. But that's cool. 'Cause Traitor Knights don't really get all that many Stratagems. However, you do still get the <Character> Keyword in non-SHADs, though. So you can Heroically Intervene. But, without Exalted Court or Heirlooms of the Household, all's your really doing is preventing your huge Knights from blocking for your Daemon Princes.

Warlord Trait: A Traitor Knight Warlord gains Objective Secured and counts as 10 models. Pfft.

Relic: The **** is this!? :smallyuk:

Stratagems
Rotate Ion Shields; Yep. Get your +1 Invulnerable save.
Trail of Destruction; For 2 CPs, re-roll all to hits for the phase. Nice.

Renegade Knight: Unfortunately, GW forgot that datasheet caps are thing. So while your Imperial counterparts can have four or even five Knights (though they absolutely shouldn't), you're pretty much limited to 2 or 3, depending on the points limit, because all your Knights are called the same thing.
As before, your choices are between the Thermal Cannon, Avenger Gatling Cannon or Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon. Same as before, the Avenger Gatling Cannon is the best option. However, what sets Renegade Knights apart from their counterparts, is that they can have two Avenger Gatling Cannons. With Trail of Destruction, you can strafe units for days. This is a fairly strong choice, made all the more palatable because Imperials can't do it. It's actually something <Chaos> gets that actually is a nice thing!
Yes, if you have a Reaper Chainsword and Thunderstrike Gauntlet, +1 Attack and WS2. But without Landstrider and Full Tilt, what's the point?
Magnetising or 'not gluing' Renegade Knights is strongly recommended, as they are in the 'Index phase', and subject to change.
It's important to remember that when you're dealing with Renegade Knights, don't forget that the Khorne Lord of Skulls exists in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It has more Wounds, and sort of barely regenerates. However, the main benefit it has is that it has the <Heretic Astartes> - and <Legion> - Keywords, allowing for Warptime, and Chaos Lords handing out re-rolls to hit. As a <Daemon Vehicle>, the Lord of Skulls also has access to Daemonforge for 1CP (which also gives re-rolls to wound as well), instead of Trail of Destruction, for 2. Point is, remember that the Lord of Skulls exists, and is actually quite good.

Renegade Knight Dominus: Unlike the smaller Renegade Knights, you don't get to pick and choose which weapons you get. You're basically running either the Knight Valiant or the Knight Castellan, with the same benefits and drawbacks of each (see the Dominus Class section, above). However, losing access to Oathbreaker Guidance System really is a kick in the junk, and you should just keep your Siegebreaker Cannons.
...For now. See; 'Still in Index phase of development'.

Renegade Armiger: Here, the datasheet cap will really kick you in the junk, because 'Helverins' and 'Warglaives' are actually the same thing with Traitors. But, in reality, it's unlikely you're even going to want more than 2 units anyway.
Chaos Space Marine Forgefiends are not as good as 'Helverins'. However, Maulerfiends are much better than 'Warglaives'...Interestingly, so are Defilers. <Daemon Vehicles> are generally pretty good, especially with the same 5+ Invulnerable that Armigers get, except it works in the Fight phase, too - and even then it's unlikely you'll be burning Rotate Ion Shields on an Armiger even in the Shooting phase. Just so long as your opponents aren't stacking negs to hit. However, negs to hit in the Fight phase are generally pretty rare.

[HoldTheLine31]

A guy at the local store decided to won't be starting a guard army and made a fire sale on a bunch of his impulse purchases. Thus I manages to snatch 3 boxes of Ogryns.

Here comes the question how to equip them? I gues clubs are a must, but the harder part is the shield brute, slab or mix?
Looking at the book there seem to be able to stack retarded amount of armor buffs, but on the other hand 4++ is always nice to have.

The local meta tends to have an almost equal mix of armies spamming AP -/-1 and plasma/knight lovers (eldar are not popular around here).

[Cheesegear]

A guy at the local store decided to won't be starting a guard army and made a fire sale on a bunch of his impulse purchases. Thus I manages to snatch 3 boxes of Ogryns.

You don't have Ogryns. You have Bullgryns. Every Ogryn you make, is a Bullgryn you didn't make.
As always, S4 AP- isn't a thing - especially at BS4.
All of your Bullgryns have Bullgryn Mauls. Maybe you throw in a Grenade Gauntlet or two for Overwatch (remembering that the Frag Bomb also counts as another one, basically).

Generally it's pretty safe to go half/half on Bullgryn Shields and Slabshields, and you just take the save on whatever is better (or worse, depending on what the rest of the phase is going to throw at you). With 27 T5 Wounds in the squad, you have a lot of wiggle room.*
At the very least, it only matters if your opponents shoot AP-3 weapons at you. If they're shooting AP-2 at you - which should be the meta - then it makes no difference whether you use a 2+ Save or a 4+ Invulnerable. But, when your opponent start shooting Plasma guns at you, you'll want the Invulnerable. A Smash Captain is killing one Bullgryn per wound, so that Invulnerable is at least better than a 5+.

Basically it's up to you. Bullgryns are a fantastic unit and in the current meta, a 2+ Save or a 4+ Invulnerable is basically the same thing...Unless, your opponents are shooting AP- weapons at multi-wound models with a 2+ save. In which case they deserve to lose games. However, **** gets real when you add in a Primaris Psyker (Psychic Barrier), for that sweet 3+ Invulnerable. Nightshroud also isn't bad either.

*Most people are willing to accept Slabshields as Brute Shields. Slabshields just look better. However, if you're going to go half/half, then WYSIWYG absolutely does matter.

[HoldTheLine31]

Thanks for the sugestions Cheese. Since Bulgryn came out I've competely forgotten that the normal Ogryn existed, the armored variant looks soo much better. Also fully agree on the slab shield being the much better looking option.

I do have 4x Primaris Psykers converted from the scion and command squad box with GS an tend ro bring at least one in most lists. So the potential 3++ looks really good.

Was the Take cover strategem FAQed to only work on armor saves or is it still a flat +1?

[Blackhawk748]

Thanks for the sugestions Cheese. Since Bulgryn came out I've competely forgotten that the normal Ogryn existed, the armored variant looks soo much better. Also fully agree on the slab shield being the much better looking option.

I do have 4x Primaris Psykers converted from the scion and command squad box with GS an tend ro bring at least one in most lists. So the potential 3++ looks really good.

Was the Take cover strategem FAQed to only work on armor saves or is it still a flat +1?

Honestly? Ogryns serve no purpose anymore. Bullgryns have utterly eclipsed them as a unit and being "cheaper" doesnt help them. Its rather sad really, cuz Ripper Guns used to at least be not crap.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I'll let you read Swooping Assault again, and then let you answer the question.
The key hint is that you just answered it.

I'm asking to confirm that my reading is correct (or incorrect), since I'm not familiar enough with this edition yet (still haven't played a game of it) to assume that I'm reading it right.

My understanding is this:
I deploy my army, which let's say is 900 points of things going into reserve, ~880 points of other stuff, and the Flyrant. Flyrant is deployed on the board normally, so I have more than have my army's points on the battlefield.

Deployment ends, and it checks to see if I complied with the 50% rule. I did, so it goes on its merry way none the wiser.

After Deployment, but before the first turn, Alien Cunning allows me to set up my Flyrant again. I do so, but now I set him into Reserves with Swooping Assault. Swooping Assault says 'during deployment', but Alien Cunning says to set them back up 'as described in the deployment section of the mission you are playing.' My understanding is that the options available to me in Deployment (including Swooping Assault) are available to me with Alien Cunning, which would indeed let me deploy it into reserve.

I did Google this before asking, but the results were inconclusive. Some people on reddit 18 months ago seemed to think yes (but 18 months ago, so . . .) and some people on the tyranid hive website tangentially argued about it (but spent more time debating if this circumvented the Deep Strike limitations) without coming to a real conclusion. After that the search degraded pretty hard - D&D and random video games started showing up on page two. I would just like to know if there is an official stance on this or if this is the kind of thing you discuss with your opponent. I'm also open to the possibility (probability?) that I'm misreading it because Magic has trained me to read rules in silly ways.

[Cheesegear]

I deploy my army, which let's say is 900 points of things going into reserve, ~880 points of other stuff, and the Flyrant. Flyrant is deployed on the board normally, so I have more than have my army's points on the battlefield.

None of that matters.


After Deployment, but before the first turn, Alien Cunning allows me to set up my Flyrant again. I do so, but now I set him into Reserves with Swooping Assault. Swooping Assault says 'during deployment', but Alien Cunning says to set them back up 'as described in the deployment section of the mission you are playing.'

Swooping Assault; During Deployment, you can set up a Hive Tyrant with wings...
Alien Cunning; At the start of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins... (cont.) set them up again as described in the Deployment Section of the Mission.

So, during Deployment, you set up on the board.
At the start of the first battle round, set up again, as per the Deployment of the Mission.

The Deployment Section of the Mission says nothing about Warlords' abilities.


My understanding is that the options available to me in Deployment

Then your understanding is wrong, because it is no longer Deployment. It is the first turn.


Some people on reddit 18 months ago seemed to think yes

Yes. If you were reading the Index rules, pre-Errata. 'Set up again', isn't the same as the Errata'd version 'set them up again as described in the Deployment section of the mission you are playing'. The fact that people were arguing about it with no clear decision, is the reason it was Errata'd in the first place. I know what you're trying to do, and it was removed from the game for a reason. You can't trick your opponent. And I know that that's what you're trying to do. Put them in Reserve. Or don't. It's that simple.

A similar thing used to happen to Craftworlds' players combining Phantasm with Webway Strike...No. Reason being that the Deployment Section of the Mission doesn't have a provision for Webway Strike...Or Swooping Assault.

[Bobby Baratheon]

None of that matters.

Swooping Assault; During Deployment, you can set up a Hive Tyrant with wings...
Alien Cunning; At the start of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins... (cont.) set them up again as described in the Deployment Section of the Mission.

So, during Deployment, you set up on the board.
At the start of the first battle round, set up again, as per the Deployment of the Mission.

The Deployment Section of the Mission says nothing about Warlords' abilities.

Then your understanding is wrong, because it is no longer Deployment. It is the first turn.

Yes. If you were reading the Index rules, pre-Errata. 'Set up again', isn't the same as the Errata'd version 'set them up again as described in the Deployment section of the mission you are playing'. The fact that people were arguing about it with no clear decision, is the reason it was Errata'd in the first place. I know what you're trying to do, and it was removed from the game for a reason. You can't trick your opponent. And I know that that's what you're trying to do. Put them in Reserve. Or don't. It's that simple.

A similar thing used to happen to Craftworlds' players combining Phantasm with Webway Strike...No.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I'm not trying to trick anyone - I just wanted to have a lot of reserve units, which FWIW were going to be Warriors and Trygons, and not have the Flyrant get shot down on turn one.

[Cheesegear]

I'm not trying to trick anyone

Saying that one thing is on the board, letting your opponent deploy, and then removing it from the board, is a trick.


I just wanted to have a lot of reserve units

Which GW hasn't wanted anyone to do since FAQ 1. Because null-deployments aren't fair.
Hence the whole, 'half your units and half your points', and then additionally nerfing any ability that gives SUA on Turn 1.

That said, getting your whole army shot off the board in 2 turns because you weren't allowed to be in Reserve, is also not fair. But that's why huge swathes of the meta no longer exist, and with less and less Reserves being allowed, T'au get better and better.
The idea, pretty simply, is that Tyranids' strengths do not lie in massive amounts of Reserves.
Reserves pretty much died as an army concept 9 months ago. Except for Scions, which are 10 Points each, so if you put 5 units in Reinforcements, it'll barely even register as far as your army list is concerned (What's a Knight? 8 units' worth of Power Rating? That's that sorted. Now put Officers and Heavy Weapons Teams on the board and you're good to go), and then you come down spraying AP-2 'YA BOO SUX! Sixes Wound Anything!' :smallsigh:

But the whole point of individual Datasheets and no more universal special rules was so that GW could say "No Reserves on Turn 1. But this unit can."
...But then GW ignored that and completely missed the upside to no universal special rules and having each unit individual to one another.

[9mm]

Honestly? Ogryns serve no purpose anymore.

that's been true since they stopped coming with Viking horn helmets...

I miss the "It's dark in der" rule.

[Bobby Baratheon]

That said, getting your whole army shot off the board in 2 turns because you weren't allowed to be in Reserve, is also not fair. But that's why huge swathes of the meta no longer exist, and with less and less Reserves being allowed, T'au get better and better.
The idea, pretty simply, is that Tyranids' strengths do not lie in massive amounts of Reserves.
Reserves pretty much died as an army concept 9 months ago. Except for Scions, which are 10 Points each, so if you put 5 units in Reinforcements, it'll barely even register as far as your army list is concerned (What's a Knight? 8 units' worth of Power Rating? That's that sorted. Now put Officers and Heavy Weapons Teams on the board and you're good to go), and then you come down spraying AP-2 'YA BOO SUX! Sixes Wound Anything!' :smallsigh:

But the whole point of individual Datasheets and no more universal special rules was so that GW could say "No Reserves on Turn 1. But this unit can."
...But then GW ignored that and completely missed the upside to no universal special rules and having each unit individual to one another.

That's unfortunate - I always liked the options that Reserves gave you and thought they added an interesting level to the game. However, assuming the people that were in it in 7th are the people in it now, my meta is pretty soft - I've played against literal Angry Marine meme lists before - so I should be able to make a subpar Jormungandr Trygon/Warrior list work passably just by dint of not doing things for the lolz. If not, I'll just move on to something else that works better. C'est la vie and all.

[Brookshw]

While on the topic of debated rules, movement after disembarking from a moving valkyrie, yea/nay, where do people weigh in?

[Cheesegear]

While on the topic of debated rules, movement after disembarking from a moving valkyrie, yea/nay, where do people weigh in?

Where does it say you can't? What interpretation of the rules do I need to read?
How is this rule debated?
I don't know what the problem is.

Grav-Chute Insertion is a weird rule. But it wasn't nerfed - even though it should've been. Fact is, GW didn't nerf it because Guard are allowed to do anything they want.


Speaking of Fliers; Since you no longer lose from tabling, people are saying that Stormravens might come back into the meta because they're not ~320 Point failwhales anymore.

[Brookshw]

Where does it say you can't? What interpretation of the rules do I need to read?
How is this rule debated?
I don't know what the problem is.


brb faq says riding in a vehicle counts as moving. Disembarking normally lets you move after. So do you get two move actions?

Here's the debate, starts towards the bottom of page 1 and goes from there. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/767982.page

[LansXero]

brb faq says riding in a vehicle counts as moving. Disembarking normally lets you move after. So do you get two move actions?

Normally, you need to disembark before the transport moves so its a non-issue. The BRB is about the interaction with heavy weapons and the like. Grave-chute insertion or the new Scions formation has nothing to do with that.

[Cheesegear]

I have no interest in reading back-and-forths on Dakka. I assume that the first thing that happened after say, the first three posts didn't give a definitive answer, the OP went immediately to GW's Facebook (or the ITC/FLG), right? And since the discussion was tabled to a higher authority, the matter was resolved until further notice, right?

But, I was specifically given the FAQ, and 'move normally' as my clues what to look for.

Transports, page 183.
Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves.

Grav-Chute Insertion
Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point during its move...

So far, so good...

Rulebook FAQ, page 6.
Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count
as also having moved?
A: Yes.

Transports (cont.)
Units that disembark can then act normally.

Can a unit move after Grav-Chuting?
Yes; A unit that disembarks can move normally.
No; A unit that has already moved, can't move again.

Why even debate this? There are no other examples with which to draw from.
It's not like Alien Cunning getting its wording Errata'd to match Phantasm and then Phantasm disallowing Webway Strikes for the same reason as Alien Cunning getting nerfed.
Go straight an authority figure. Either Facebook or the ITC. Don't screw around on forums.
End.

[Renegade Paladin]

Speaking of Fliers; Since you no longer lose from tabling, people are saying that Stormravens might come back into the meta because they're not ~320 Point failwhales anymore.

The old missions didn't stop existing. Just to screw with everyone, the mission pack for next week's tournament uses each of the three extant deployment/first turn methods over the three rounds, and only one uses Acceptable Casualties. :smallamused:

[Yaktan]

Had a game vs Eldar Soup yesterday. Since I could not find my Chapter Approved, we used one of the rulebook eternal war missions. (score at end of game, 1 objective each)

Here are the lists:

Close Combat Tau:

3x T'au Sept Battalions

Shadowsun
Darkstrider
XV8 Commander w/ missiles
Coldstar w/ Fusion (had vectored thrusters, but I never used them. :smallsigh:)
2x Cadre Fireblades (1 warlord with Through Unity, Devestation)

Kroot
2x10 Strikers
6x5 Breachers

Crisis Suits w/ Missile, Plasma, Plasma each
2x Ghostkeel
2x3 Stealth Suits
3x Farsight Marksmen

Gun Drones
3x Pathfinder squads, 2 ion, 1 rail rifles


Dank Eldar:

Black Heart Spearhead
Archon, (warlord, CP trait, book of vect's poetry)
3x Dissy ravagers

Coven Battalion (the 4++ one)
Special Character Heamunculus
Regular Haemunculus
3x Wrack units
7 man Grots
3 man Talos

Alitoc Battalion
Farseer on bike
Warlock on bike
3x Rangers
Crimson Hunter exarch
Forgeworld transformer plane


It was a good game. Took a while since we went sort of slow. I definitely need to figure out how to roll faster.

The lists felt reasonably balanced vs. each other. I ended up giving him a thrashing by the end, but a big part of that was terrible luck on his part. Well, bad luck at least. He got laser focused on taking down my Ghostkeels and they kept on shrugging everything off. It did not help that he got distracted after shooting a couple shield drones and failed to deal with the rest of the drones (the stealth squads and shadowsun all brought drones to protect the ghostkeels) including ignoring the stealth drones.

On my side, I completely wiffed with my crisis suits when I brought them in. I dropped them next to his crimson hunter. And then he used the hit penalty strat when another squad fired at them, so I should have just aimed elsewhere, though the only other things around for the plasma rifles were some rangers and wracks, but definitely I should have shot the missiles at a ravager. I mean, I specifically included those missiles because of the range (and because I think that anything besides missiles as a third weapon looks pants) and I was like, "no must shoot everything at the plane in front of me!"

On the other hand, even though he vect'ed my focused fire strat on his wracks, I still blew through them and the talos in my first turn.

Overall, everything in my army seemed to perform roughly to expectations, aside from the big wiff on my crisis suits. Also my pathfinders seemed to do less in this game, but eldar -hit hurts them bad since they need to overcharge for max damage, and after the first turn his stuff was mostly across the board so I had to move towards him.

[LansXero]

Had a game vs Eldar Soup yesterday. I ended up giving him a thrashing by the end, but a big part of that was units from the DE codex other than Ravagers that could've been Harlequins or more Craftworld instead

Emphasis mine, I think thats the reason anyways.

[Cheesegear]

Changelog (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23046630&postcount=154)

Imperial Fists are usable. However, you can overdo it and make them useless.
All Warlord Traits are trash. Except for Storm of Fire, and situationally, Champion of Humanity, and 'The Raven Guard one'. The Warlord Traits are so bad, that it's at the point where you don't even want named Characters as your Warlord - not even Guilliman! - because all of them are stuck with Warlord Traits that are garbage.
Standard of the Emperor Ascendant is mandatory. Use Relics of the Chapter to pick up anything else.
Librarians are terrible. Null Zone is barely worth manifesting, because of how hard it is to manifest, in addition to small its area of effect is. Psychic Fortress is the bomb.
Tactical Objectives are really good, because they aren't Faction-specific, which means you can use any Allies you want, which you do, because Space Marines are bad on their own.
Masterful Marksmanship (Sternguard) is one of the best Stratagems in the book.
Auspex Scan is really strong - FAQ excerpt added as to why, despite the FAQ saying exactly what the Stratagem doesn't, in such a way that it may as well be Errata, not an FAQ.
Wisdom of the Ancients (<Dreadnoughts>) is pretty good, by virtue of the fact that Dreadnoughts are no longer total ****.
Tremor Shells (Thunderfire Cannon) is really good...Except that it doesn't hit two major parts of the meta...Hits all the minor parts, though. The reason this has come up is because the unit also happened to go down by 28 Points. Similar to Dreadnoughts going down in points and now suddenly it's worth building around Wisdom of the Ancients. Weird how that works.
Abhor the Witch (Black Templars) is really strong in the current meta.
Strike From the Shadows (Raven Guard) significantly worse than it was before...However it's still very good...For Space Marines.

[Forum Explorer]

Had a game vs Eldar Soup yesterday. Since I could not find my Chapter Approved, we used one of the rulebook eternal war missions. (score at end of game, 1 objective each)

Here are the lists:

Close Combat Tau:

3x T'au Sept Battalions

Shadowsun
Darkstrider
XV8 Commander w/ missiles
Coldstar w/ Fusion (had vectored thrusters, but I never used them. :smallsigh:)
2x Cadre Fireblades (1 warlord with Through Unity, Devestation)

Kroot
2x10 Strikers
6x5 Breachers

Crisis Suits w/ Missile, Plasma, Plasma each
2x Ghostkeel
2x3 Stealth Suits
3x Farsight Marksmen

Gun Drones
3x Pathfinder squads, 2 ion, 1 rail rifles


Dank Eldar:

Black Heart Spearhead
Archon, (warlord, CP trait, book of vect's poetry)
3x Dissy ravagers

Coven Battalion (the 4++ one)
Special Character Heamunculus
Regular Haemunculus
3x Wrack units
7 man Grots
3 man Talos

Alitoc Battalion
Farseer on bike
Warlock on bike
3x Rangers
Crimson Hunter exarch
Forgeworld transformer plane


It was a good game. Took a while since we went sort of slow. I definitely need to figure out how to roll faster.

The lists felt reasonably balanced vs. each other. I ended up giving him a thrashing by the end, but a big part of that was terrible luck on his part. Well, bad luck at least. He got laser focused on taking down my Ghostkeels and they kept on shrugging everything off. It did not help that he got distracted after shooting a couple shield drones and failed to deal with the rest of the drones (the stealth squads and shadowsun all brought drones to protect the ghostkeels) including ignoring the stealth drones.

On my side, I completely wiffed with my crisis suits when I brought them in. I dropped them next to his crimson hunter. And then he used the hit penalty strat when another squad fired at them, so I should have just aimed elsewhere, though the only other things around for the plasma rifles were some rangers and wracks, but definitely I should have shot the missiles at a ravager. I mean, I specifically included those missiles because of the range (and because I think that anything besides missiles as a third weapon looks pants) and I was like, "no must shoot everything at the plane in front of me!"

On the other hand, even though he vect'ed my focused fire strat on his wracks, I still blew through them and the talos in my first turn.

Overall, everything in my army seemed to perform roughly to expectations, aside from the big wiff on my crisis suits. Also my pathfinders seemed to do less in this game, but eldar -hit hurts them bad since they need to overcharge for max damage, and after the first turn his stuff was mostly across the board so I had to move towards him.

Sounds like this guy couldn't make a 4++ to save his life. That or he wasn't that good of a player. Also what's a 'Forgeworld Transformer Plane'?

[LansXero]

Sounds like this guy couldn't make a 4++ to save his life. That or he wasn't that good of a player. Also what's a 'Forgeworld Transformer Plane'?

Im pretty sure its a Lynx.

[LudDavenport]

Emphasis mine, I think thats the reason anyways.

Not "0 Transports for foot slogging assault units"? More Generally... DE with 0 transports looks weird. Not even suggesting Venom spam, but Raiders would get the melee threat somewhere.

[Drasius]

Guide to Imperial Knights
Take either
a Castellan and some Warglaives
or
a Terryn Gallant and some Helverins
then add a CP battery and your choice of infantry threat

What about those of us silly enough to want to run pure IK? Not that there's too much freedom due to points limits, but as long as I don't expect to win by standing around on objectives with 100 chaff wounds, can it be done?

Terryn
Gallant
Warden
Errant
Errant
Crusader
is 1996

[Cheesegear]

What about those of us silly enough to want to run pure IK?

Terryn, Super-Heavies (+6)
Errant
(W) Gallant; Landstrider, Paragon Gauntlet
Warden

Raven, Super-Heavies (+3)
Helverin
Helverin
(C) Crusader; The Helm Dominatus

Heirlooms (-1)

Total: At least 1950. | 11 CPs

If you're playing (solo) Imperial Knights, and can't make dual Detachments, you're doing it wrong.
Armigers save the entire Faction.

[Avaris]

There’s an interesting article over on BoLS about a presumably unintentional side effect from FAQ: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/01/goatboys-40k-thoughts-rule-conundrum.html

Basically, the FAQ states that ‘persistent’ effects go away when you remove a model and set it up again. This theoretically includes Death Visions of Sanguinius or Chapter Master upgrades, which is presumably not the intention, but I foresee bitter arguments at the WAAC end of the scale over this.

With my game design head on, this sort of thing is a really interesting contrast to AoS philosophy. I’ve been listening to the GW podcasts, and the AoS team seem very proud of their having a single ‘rules wording’ master document to ensure consistency and reduce confusion. I’ve seen no indication that 40k has similar, which leads to things like ‘persistent’ being used without being defined anywhere or thinking about the wider consequences.

Theoretically this won’t matter in most games, as people will run by rules as intended (and there is a big push in GW, or AoS at least, to help people do so), and in my book anyone who claims that your Chapter Master strategem just goes away as a result of this is not someone I want to play against. But at the WAAC RAW end of things it’s presumably going to be a problem!

(Without wanting to get back into arguments, this is the sort of thing where a rule can be serviceable at the casual level but not at the WAAC competitive level: hunting these edge cases is irrelevant to me and many others due to social contract and rules as intended, so there are diminishing returns for focussing effort on correcting this type of stuff, as it effects less and less players)

[Cheesegear]

Basically, the FAQ states that ‘persistent’ effects go away when you remove a model and set it up again.

Except that this is old news - you can tell because the question itself, isn't in pink.
Nobody has decided what a persistent effect even is.


This theoretically includes Death Visions of Sanguinius or Chapter Master upgrades

No it doesn't. Because Death Visions happens when you choose your army (long before the game has started), and Chapter Master alters your datasheet before the game begins. Both of those are extremely poor examples.
Abilities that alter your models Datasheet are not persistent effects. They are what your model is, now.

The rule screws with people who don't know how to use their Psychic phase properly - like I said, it's old news.
A Grey Knight player uses Hammerhand, and then uses Gate of Infinity on the same unit. Gone. This is a known issue with the Codex.
More recently, in a Codex that people actually care about; An Ork player uses Warpath, and then uses Da Jump. Screwing up their order of operations, and botching the entire thing.

However, like I said. This is old news. The question isn't pink. People should have already been playing it this way. I know I have.
Also, like I said, I don't believe that either Death Visions or Chapter Master is a 'persistent effect'.

...Primarily because no-one knows what a persistent effect is.

[Drasius]

Terryn, Super-Heavies (+6)
Errant
(W) Gallant; Landstrider, Paragon Gauntlet
Warden

Raven, Super-Heavies (+3)
Helverin
Helverin
(C) Crusader; The Helm Dominatus

Heirlooms (-1)

Total: At least 1950. | 11 CPs

If you're playing (solo) Imperial Knights, and can't make dual Detachments, you're doing it wrong.
Armigers save the entire Faction.

And for those of us who like IK classic and not New IK (Castellan/Valiant) or IK Zero (Warglaives/Helverins)? How do you run a list with only the "regular" knights?

[LansXero]

So! New beta rules for bolter people. Who do you guys think will benefit the most?

[Turalisj]

Deathwatch, except deathwatch still costs too much. So in the end, it won't get used, because bolters are still S4AP0.

[LansXero]

Deathwatch, except deathwatch still costs too much. So in the end, it won't get used, because bolters are still S4AP0.

But DW bolters wound on 2 or have more AP. It doesnt affect HBs though, right? :'(

[LeSwordfish]

I imagine Dark Angels will enjoy it, what with not moving anyway.

[Cheesegear]

How do you run a list with only the "regular" knights?

Badly.


So! New beta rules for bolter people. Who do you guys think will benefit the most?

Fire twice under half range; So...Normal stuff.

Fire twice if you remain stationary; THAT'S WHAT I WANT. ASTARTES ARMIES TO BE MORE STATIONARY. THANKS GW. KEEP ****ING IT UP BY MAKING YOUR FLAGSHIP FACTION THE MOST BORING ARMY IN THE ENTIRE GAME. YOU'RE DOING IT.
(Also, Dark Angels get even more boring by stacking even more bonuses into their gunline)

Terminators / Bikers / Centurions / Vehicles;
If Terminators need to take Power Fists, they'll never be good...Basically any Terminators other than Codex: Marines will like the change.
Bikers don't need it. If they want Rapid Fire...They just move into range. Now? They don't need to move into range. They can remain stationary and get Rapid Fire, maybe? COOL. STATIONARY BIKES. START MODELLING KICK-STANDS BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT MAKES A BIKE COOL, IS KICK STANDS.
Centurions are already making a comeback (AFAIC), and now Hurricane Bolters are going to be great.
Land Raider Crusaders can remain stationary - or move very little - and fire at full effect. COOL! THAT'S WHY I USE LAND RAIDER CRUSADERS.

This makes me furious. GW already did it in Vigilus. Models firing under half range auto-hit. Models get Rapid Fire 2, not 1.
That's what Space Marines need...Except not for CPs.

Things Bolt weapons need;
1. Assault 3
2. Rapid Fire 2 (Storm Bolters are great. Why aren't they standard?)
That's it. Bringing a bulls* version of Relentless back into the game doesn't fix anything. Except I guess there's someone out there who thought Astartes armies were 'too dynamic' and needed to go back to their Deployment Zone.

Also, <Black Legion Astartes> models are now worse...Just in case you were one of the last remaining people on the planet who actually ran Astartes in the Chaos Marine book.

For the record, all of my Math-Hammer calculations are always done in the best-case scenario. That is, I almost always calculate with Rapid Fire on, because that's how you're supposed to use them. So, none of my calculations actually change, and Boltguns are still ****, because they have 2 shots, and not 4, because the problem still remains that Guardsmen outnumber Marines 3-to-1, which means that the only way that Space Marines can get on equal footing, is by having at least 3 shots.

[LansXero]

Badly.

Terminators / Bikers / Centurions / Vehicles;


I was under the impression that those were exlusive. As in, either be in half range, dont move, OR be one of these things. Not one the two fist and also be one of these things.

[Cheesegear]

I was under the impression that those were exlusive.

Affirmative.

My point is...

Rapid Fire has a downside. You need to either put yourself into your opponent's Rapid Fire range (which is why Fire Warriors and Intercessors have that +3" 'edge' over other armies), or, you put yourself into your opponent's Charge range.
By getting Rapid Fire benefits, by simply remaining stationary. All gain, no pain. Just stay in your second-storey Ruin and Rapid Fire.

Terminators / Bikers / Centurions / Vehicles...
The issue is that these units don't need to move, based on the above. Even though they just get it...There's no reason to put them into your opponent's Rapid Fire or Charge range. So...Sure, you don't need to be stationary. But why move anyway? It's not like you're Objective Secured.

[Requizen]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-unboxing-kill-team-arenagw-homepage-post-1/#gallery-11

Exciting preview, here. I really like set boards, terrain, and objectives for competitive settings. There is, of course, the problem that it might get stale, but with 8 missions to start with and a variety of matchups, I'm betting they'll stay nice and fresh for a while. The box itself looks like a nice package depending on price, book/boards/cards/terrain is a reasonable buy in considering it's fairly self-contained as long as you have available Kill Teams. Waiting for that price, though.

Still, this looks like the sort of thing that will get me to buy a few boxes of each army just to have some variety around. Already have some plans for Eldar and Space Marines (Blood Ravens!).

[LansXero]

Affirmative.

My point is...

Rapid Fire has a downside. You need to either put yourself into your opponent's Rapid Fire range (which is why Fire Warriors and Intercessors have that +3" 'edge' over other armies), or, you put yourself into your opponent's Charge range.
By getting Rapid Fire benefits, by simply remaining stationary. All gain, no pain. Just stay in your second-storey Ruin and Rapid Fire.

Terminators / Bikers / Centurions / Vehicles...
The issue is that these units don't need to move, based on the above. Even though they just get it...There's no reason to put them into your opponent's Rapid Fire or Charge range. So...Sure, you don't need to be stationary. But why move anyway? It's not like you're Objective Secured.

Objective Secured doesnt matter if you are the only thing standing on the objective, and Bikes can certainly get to places faster than many troops (unless its ITC and it doesnt matter). There is also LoS to some things, getting into re-roll auras, faling back (for things that fly, like landspeeders), etc. So its not a big difference, but its not nothing.

[Wraith]

30k is still a thing, I've recently been reminded. I honestly thought that the game had been put on hold at least until The Siege Of Terra books cycle began as a tie-in, but it seems otherwise.

Night Lords Praetor (Jump Pack) (http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FWPreview-jan21-NLPraetor1yvdg.jpg)

Night Lords Praetor (Terminator) (http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FWPreview-jan21-NLPraetor2irvd.jpg)

Night Lords Dreadnought (http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FWPreview-jan21-NLLeviathan3ivrf.jpg)

Blood Angels Crimson Paladins Terminators (http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FWPreview-jan21-BAPaladins4tdv.jpg)

Mechanicum Ordinatus Aktaeus (Drill-tank) (http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FWPreview-jan21-Drill5ivrs.jpg)

They have also teased something else that's coming soon - something "so awesome" that FW wanted to give it an article all to itself rather than share headlines with the Night Lords/Blood Angels. The leading rumour is that it will possibly be a new Primarch - Sanguinius maybe, to go with his new bodyguards.

I really like the Blood Angels - the narrow waist *almost* makes them look like the suits are normal proportions rather than the hulking vehicles of some other varieties, and I especially like the black details and gold filigree on the paint scheme. I don't think that I'll ever be a fan of the garbage that gets attached to the Night Lords models, the heads and trophies and things; I know it's appropriate to their fluff, but they're not particularly high quality sculpts and I think there's just too much of it.

[Blackhawk748]

So! New beta rules for bolter people. Who do you guys think will benefit the most?

Firstly, please post what the rules are. I don't bother patronizing Warhammer Community except to get my errata nerfs.

Secodnly, now that I know what it is, It doesnt really matter? Bolters are still AP- and still S4. Whoop de do. Stormbolters are still better because they actually have a respectable amount of shots on them and HBs have AP. Regular Bolters may as well be Lasguns.

[LansXero]

Firstly, please post what the rules are. I don't bother patronizing Warhammer Community except to get my errata nerfs.

Secodnly, now that I know what it is, It doesnt really matter? Bolters are still AP- and still S4. Whoop de do. Stormbolters are still better because they actually have a respectable amount of shots on them and HBs have AP. Regular Bolters may as well be Lasguns.

Its not bolters, its anything with bolt in its name, which does include Storm Bolters, but also Intercessor weapons and the like. So sure, basic bolters are still worthless, but added distance on volume of shots may change a thing or two, depending on what model gets it.

[Blackhawk748]

Its not bolters, its anything with bolt in its name, which does include Storm Bolters, but also Intercessor weapons and the like. So sure, basic bolters are still worthless, but added distance on volume of shots may change a thing or two, depending on what model gets it.

Ok, so the good Bolters got better and the baseline is still lousy. Glad I can spam Stormbolters now. Oh wait...I already was.

Really I don't think its gonna change much, its not like this can save Tactical Marines.

[Turalisj]

Bolters are still lasguns with +1 strength, still bad. Still on a platform that costs more than twice a guardsman.

[Cheesegear]

Its not bolters, its anything with bolt in its name, which does include Storm Bolters, but also Intercessor weapons and the like. So sure, basic bolters are still worthless, but added distance on volume of shots may change a thing or two, depending on what model gets it.

Here's what it includes;
Boltguns
Bolt Rifles
Storm Bolters
...That's it.

As I said, almost all Math-Hammer calculations will be done with Rapid Fire in mind - including my own. As far as I'm concerned, nothing has changed. I don't have to change my Excel tables at all. The only thing that's changed, is that I no longer need to leave my Deployment Zone to fire at full effect (which, as per Math-hammer, is still exactly the same as it was before). However, like I also said previously, not leaving my Deployment Zone eats ****s.
According to Math-Hammer, nothing's changed.
Tactically...I hate my army now. Like...I actually hate it.
It's time to make Lamenters yellow Blood Angels.

Bolt weapons are still **** because they're fundamentally limited by the models carrying them.

Bolt Rifles are bad because they're only AP-1 (and thus are Storm of Fire bait, which only happens on a '6').
Stalker Bolt Rifles are bad because they only have one shot.

Bolt weapons need more shots. That's why Storm Bolters are good.

[bluntpencil]

Okay, Bolter Discipline is turning Space Marines into boring gunlines.

Deathwatch, instead of being the cool elites that teleport in your face and gun monsters down at close range, hang back at 30" spraying Storm Bolters. Intercessors will also sit at 30".

Interestingly, Deathwatch with Storm Shields and Storm Bolters (amazing, yes), will utterly destroy the Cadian gunline.

Cadians will not be able to hit the Space Marines at 30" with their lasguns, and will be forced to move into the open, losing their sitting still bonus, and getting gunned down. They'll only be able to touch them with heavy weapons, which the Storm Shields will deal with.

Boring.

I agree with Cheesegear: Change Bolters and Bolt Rifles to Rapid Fire 2 (and Storm Bolters/Twin Bolters/Combi-Bolters to Rapid Fire 3, not 4, Jesus).

[Cheesegear]

Deathwatch, instead of being the cool elites that teleport in your face and gun monsters down at close range, hang back at 30" spraying Storm Bolters. Intercessors will also sit at 30".

Another cool idea is having Grey Knights totally ignore Teleport Strike, and have them play exactly the same as every other Astartes book. :smallsigh:


I agree with Cheesegear: Change Bolters and Bolt Rifles to Rapid Fire 2 (and Storm Bolters/Twin Bolters/Combi-Bolters to Rapid Fire 3, not 4, Jesus).

Rapid Fire 3 is a bit much. Auto Bolt Rifles should be Assault 4. I've said that from the start. So, I guess I can lump Storm Bolters into the same group, if Rapid Fire 2 becomes the norm.

[bluntpencil]

Rapid Fire 3 is a bit much. Auto Bolt Rifles should be Assault 4. I've said that from the start. So, I guess I can lump Storm Bolters into the same group, if Rapid Fire 2 becomes the norm.

The problem with Storm Bolters being Assault 4 is that that would still have Deathwatch sitting at 30", or even deploying at 36" away to completely neuter lasguns and Pulse rifles, then walking to 30" and sitting there.

I'd like to see something that encourages them to get up closer. Maybe +1 shot with Storm Bolters etc? So, Rapid Fire 2 (4 shots), +1 shot (5 shots)?

[Forum Explorer]

So the lists have been submitted and here's my competition:

Battalion Detachment (Aeldari - Drukhari) [41 PL, 841pts]
Alliance of Agony (1 CP)
Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Obsidian Rose
Prizes from the Dark City (1 Relic)
+HQ [8 PL, 172pts]+
Archon [4 PL, 86pts]: Blast Pistol [10pts], Hatred Eternal, Huskblade [6pts], The Djin Blade, Warlord (Archon)
Archon [4 PL, 86pts]: Blast Pistol [10pts], Huskblade [6pts]

+ Troops [12 PL, 249pts] +
Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 83pts] X3
. 8x Kabalite Warrior [48pts]
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon [26pts]: Dark Lance [20pts]
. Sybarite [9pts]: Phantasm Grenade Launcher [3pts], Splinter Rifle

+ Heavy Support [21 PL, 420pts] +
Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance [20pts], Dark Lance [20pts], Dark Lance [20pts]

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [35 PL, 597pts] ++
Detachment Attribute: Cult of the Red Grief
Fixed Combat Drug Selections
+ HQ [8 PL, 120pts] +
Succubus [4 PL, 60pts]: Archite Glaive, Blast Pistol [10pts], Hyper-swift Reflexes, Painbringer (Combat Drug), The Blood Glaive
Succubus [4 PL, 60pts]: Archite Glaive, Blast Pistol [10pts], Serpentin (Combat Drug)

+ Troops [12 PL, 231pts] +
Wyches [4 PL, 77pts]: X3 ( 1 each of Adrenalight (Combat Drug), Grave Lotus (Combat Drug), Hypex (Combat Drug)
. Hekatrix [8pts]: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 7x Wych [56pts]
. Wych with Wych Weapon [13pts]: Shardnet and impaler [5pts]

+ Dedicated Transport [15 PL, 246pts] +
Raider [5 PL, 82pts]: Disintegrator cannon [15pts], Grisly Trophies [2pts] X3

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [31 PL, 562pts] ++
Detachment Attribute: Prophets of Flesh
+ HQ [10 PL, 172pts] +
Haemonculus [5 PL, 86pts]: Diabolical Soothsayer, Electrocorrosive whip [6pts], Hexrifle [5pts], Ichor Injector [5pts]
Haemonculus [5 PL, 86pts]: Electrocorrosive whip [6pts], Hexrifle [5pts], Ichor Injector [5pts]
+ Troops [15 PL, 285pts] +
Wracks [5 PL, 95pts]
. Acothyst [14pts]: Haemonculus tools, Hexrifle [5pts] 9x Wracks [81pts] X3
Grotesques [6 PL, 105pts]
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver [2 PL, 35pts]: Flesh Gauntlet [3pts] X3
++ Total: [107 PL, 2000pts] ++

Kraken battalion

HQ

Swarmlord-250
Broodlord- 115

Troops

16- Genestealers with scything talons and rending claws- 192
4 with acid maw
16- Genestealers with scything talons and rending claws- 192
4 with acid maw
11- Termagants with fleshborers- 44

Elites

3- Venomthropes- 90

Kraken Battalion

HQ

-Neruothrope- 90
-Hive Tyrant with wings (relic: Chameleonic mutation)- 190
4 Devours with brainleech worms- 28

Troops

10- Termagants with fleshborers – 40
3- ripper swarms- 33
3- ripper swarms-33

Kronos Vanguard

HQ

Neruothrope(Warlord: soul hunger) -90

Elites

6- Hive guard with impaler cannons- 288
6- hive guard with impaler cannons- 288

Lictor- 34

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [82 PL, 1190pts] ++
*Chapter Selection*: Ultramarines

+ HQ [12 PL, 180pts] +
Captain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 106pts]: Iron Resolve, Relic blade [9pts], Storm bolter [2pts], The Sanctic Halo, Warlord

Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, 74pts]: Power sword [4pts]

+ Troops [30 PL, 286pts] +
Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts] X2
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 88pts] X2
. 4x Space Marine [52pts]
. Space Marine Sergeant [13pts]: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts]

+ Elites [12 PL, 222pts] +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts] X2:
2x Aggressor [42pts], Aggressor Sergeant [21pts], Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [48pts]

+ Fast Attack [18 PL, 258pts] +

Bike Squad [9 PL, 129pts] X2
. Biker Sergeant [38pts]: Combi-melta [15pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]
. Space Marine Biker w/Chainsword [23pts]: Twin boltgun [2pts]
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon [34pts]: Plasma gun [11pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon [34pts]: Plasma gun [11pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]

+ Dedicated Transport [10 PL, 244pts] +

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts] X2
Hunter-killer missile [6pts], Storm bolter [2pts], Twin assault cannon [44pts]

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [47 PL, 810pts] ++

*Chapter Selection*: Ultramarines

+ HQ [4 PL, 47pts] +

Techmarine [4 PL, 47pts]: Chainsword, Servo-arm, Storm bolter [2pts]

+ Heavy Support [43 PL, 763pts] +

Predator [9 PL, 152pts]: X2
Predator autocannon [40pts], Storm bolter [2pts], Two Heavy Bolters [20pts]
Predator [9 PL, 156pts]: Hunter-killer missile [6pts], Predator autocannon [40pts], Two Heavy Bolters [20pts]
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 303pts]: 2x Heavy flamer [28pts], Storm cannon array [50pts], Storm cannon array [50pts]

++ Total: [129 PL, 2000pts] ++

+ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 400pts] ++
*Chapter Selection*: Ultramarines
+ Lord of War +
Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 400pts]: Warlord

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [87 PL, 1598pts] ++
*Chapter Selection*: Ultramarines
+ HQ +
Primaris Librarian [7 PL, 101pts]: 2) Might of Heroes, 6) Null Zone, Force sword
+ Elites +
Primaris Ancient [5 PL, 69pts]: Standard of the Emperor Ascendant
+ Heavy Support +

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought [9 PL, 168pts] X3
. Two twin lascannons: 2x Twin lascannon

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 330pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 9x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 297pts]: X2
Plasma incinerator
. 8x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

++ Total: [105 PL, 1998pts] ++


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [56 PL, 1055pts] ++

+ HQ +

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [9 PL, 166pts]: Warlord
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 145pts]:[/b] Force stave, Plasma pistol

+ Troops +

3X Tzaangors [4 PL, 70pts]:
9x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor Blades
. Twistbray: Tzaangor blades

Tzaangors [7 PL, 150pts]: Brayhorn, 19x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor Blades
. Twistbray: Tzaangor blades

+ Elites +

2X Tzaangor Shaman [5 PL, 90pts]: Force stave

+ Fast Attack +

2X Tzaangor Enlightened [5 PL, 102pts]: Aviarch, 5x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [49 PL, 945pts] ++

+ HQ +

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 140pts]: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol

2X Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon, Wings

+ Lord of War +

Magnus the Red [23 PL, 445pts]

++ Total: [105 PL, 2000pts] ++

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [45 PL, 806pts] ++

*Chapter Selection*: Iron Hands

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 77pts]: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

Techmarine on Bike [6 PL, 97pts]: Bolt pistol, Conversion beamer, Merciless Logic, Power axe, The Armour Indomitus, Twin boltgun, Warlord

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 78pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 91pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma, Power maul
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 87pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Heavy Support +

Predator [9 PL, 152pts]: Predator autocannon, Storm bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

+ Dedicated Transport +

2X Razorback [5 PL, 112pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Grey Knights) [41 PL, 694pts] ++

+ HQ +

Castellan Crowe [7 PL, 80pts]: Hammerhand

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Halberd): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

+ Elites +

Purifier Squad [9 PL, 118pts]: Sanctuary
. Knight of the Flame: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
. 4x Purifier (Halberd): 4x Storm Bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Vortimer Pattern Land Raider Redeemer [18 PL, 389pts]: 2x Flamestorm cannon, Multi-melta, Storm bolter, Twin psycannon

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [33 PL, 500pts] ++

*Chapter Selection*: Iron Hands

+ HQ +

Techmarine [5 PL, 61pts]: Boltgun, Power axe
. Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

+ Elites +

Dreadnought [7 PL, 108pts]: Heavy plasma cannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [13 PL, 185pts]
. Dreadnought melee weapon: Dreadnought chainfist, Plasma blastgun
. Heavy plasma cannon

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 146pts]: Assault cannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Heavy Flamer: Heavy flamer

++ Total: [119 PL, 2000pts] +

Brigade Detachment
Order of the Ebon Chalice
HQ
St Celestine 160 pts
Canoness (Warlord; Indomitable Belief, Relic; Book of St. Lucius) 56 pts Power Sword, Inferno Pistol
Canoness 53 pts Combi-Flamer
Canoness 49 pts Power Sword
Elite
Dialogus 30 pts Dialogus Staff, Laud Hailer
2X Preacher 25 pts Laspistol, Chainsword, Icon of the Ecclesiarchy, Rosarius, Battle Hymns, Frag/Krak Grenades
Fast Attack
Dominions 60 pts 5 x Dominions, 5 x Stormbolter/Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak grenades
2X Dominion Squad 124 pts 6 x Dominions, 1 x Combi-Flamer, 1 x Boltgun, 4 x Melta, 6 x Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades
2X Seraphim Squad 83 pts 5 x Seraphim, 4 x Inferno Pistols, Chainsword, 5 x Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades
Troops
Battle Sister Squad 68 pts 5 x Battle Sisters, Flamer, Combi-Melta, Stormbolter, 2 x Boltgun, 5 x Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades
5X Battle Sister Squad 45 pts 5 x Battle Sisters, 5 x Boltgun, 5 x Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades

3X Repressor (Transport) 109 pts 2 x Storm Bolter, Heavy Flamer, Dozer Ram, Smoke Launchers
Immolator (Transport) 100 pts Immolation Flamer, Stormbolter, Smoke Launchers
Immolator (Transport) 98 pts Immolation Flamer, Smoke Launchers
Heavy Support
Retributors 85 pts 5 x Retributors, 4 x Heavy Bolters, 5 x Bolt Pistol, 1 x Boltgun, Frag/Krak Grenades
Exocrist 125 pts Exocist Missile Launcher
Penitent Engine 100 pts 2 x Penitent Buzz-blades, 2 x Heavy Flamers

Total Points 2000
Command Points 15 minus 3 for three relics 12
Faith points 3 plus 6 (69 sisters) 9

So I was wrong about the replacement player. The real replacement will be the store owner, who players Sisters of Battle. He also has a massive grudge against my Eldar army, so I am really hoping to face him. Only problem is, it's an elimination tournament. So you can't afford to lose a single game. And the Thousand Sons look to be a really rough game. The Tyranids and the Dark Eldar I'm confident I can beat, though they'll still be difficult. I'm pretty sure I've got all three of the Space Marine players matched as well.

[LudDavenport]

@ForumExplorer: Is that DE player intentionally pulling all their punches? That list just looks like most of the worst gear choices. The wytches look most sensible, except only 1 Raider... which is just wrong. Hexrifles(Heavy Weapons) on largely melee units, huskblade/blast pistol on OBSIDIAN ROSE Archons, exactly 1 3xDARK LANCE Ravager, Exactly 1 min unit of grots? Short of taking beasts/archon's court you'd be hard pressed to do worse with a coherent list. The archons are built for close range, but buff 42" range units. The Haemonculi portion paid 25 points for basically nothing.

edit: I know the DE codex is kinda busted... but not sure even that can explain it getting this far. OTOH, that grayknights+tacticals with a landraider list exists so whatever.

[Forum Explorer]

@ForumExplorer: Is that DE player intentionally pulling all their punches? That list just looks like most of the worst gear choices. The wytches look most sensible, except only 1 Raider... which is just wrong. Hexrifles(Heavy Weapons) on largely melee units, huskblade/blast pistol on OBSIDIAN ROSE Archons, exactly 1 3xDARK LANCE Ravager, Exactly 1 min unit of grots? Short of taking beasts/archon's court you'd be hard pressed to do worse with a coherent list. The archons are built for close range, but buff 42" range units. The Haemonculi portion paid 25 points for basically nothing.

edit: I know the DE codex is kinda busted... but not sure even that can explain it getting this far. OTOH, that grayknights+tacticals with a landraider list exists so whatever.

I think it was either written wrong, or you're reading it wrong. It's hard to tell because it's in freaking battlecribe so it's hard to read. Either way, when I faced him he had three Raiders and three Ravagers. I don't think he's pulling his punches so much as he doesn't need to punch any harder. I would've beat him in our game if I hadn't drawn complete crap for my objectives.

[LudDavenport]

I think it was either written wrong, or you're reading it wrong. It's hard to tell because it's in freaking battlecribe so it's hard to read. Either way, when I faced him he had three Raiders and three Ravagers. I don't think he's pulling his punches so much as he doesn't need to punch any harder. I would've beat him in our game if I hadn't drawn complete crap for my objectives.

Ayup, Ravager does not have the weird X3 next to it, but the sub heading has a 3x value. Still just bad archons, but that could be missing the Index FAQ giving them blasters... and darklances being mathematically worse then Dizzies.

[druid91]

So! New beta rules for bolter people. Who do you guys think will benefit the most?

Is it just me or is it a Nerf billed as a buff?

"You don't get the benefits of rapid fire unless you don't move."

[bluntpencil]

Is it just me or is it a Nerf billed as a buff?

"You don't get the benefits of rapid fire unless you don't move."

It's a major buff, but super boring.

You can get the normal Rapid Fire bonus, or you can sit still and extend its range.

It sucks, and makes gunlines even more prominent.

[Forum Explorer]

Ayup, Ravager does not have the weird X3 next to it, but the sub heading has a 3x value. Still just bad archons, but that could be missing the Index FAQ giving them blasters... and darklances being mathematically worse then Dizzies.

Dude is convinced that Dark Lances are better.

[LudDavenport]

Dude is convinced that Dark Lances are better.

Slightly against T6-7 3+ save units with no invul. What even has that statline? Armored sentinels?

[JNAProductions]

Slightly against T6-7 3+ save units with no invul. What even has that statline? Armored sentinels?

Rhinos, and other light-medium tanks.

[gmoyes]

Hey gang, me and a friend of mine were looking to get into 40k and we figured that getting Forgebane would be a good start as I'm interested in Nercons and him the Mechanicus. It was just discontinued on their website, but we can pick it up elsewhere. Is this a good idea?

[JNAProductions]

Hey gang, me and a friend of mine were looking to get into 40k and we figured that getting Forgebane would be a good start as I'm interested in Nercons and him the Mechanicus. It was just discontinued on their website, but we can pick it up elsewhere. Is this a good idea?

It's much cheaper than buying them separately. As for whether the contents are good, I'm not sure.

[Voidhawk]

Hey gang, me and a friend of mine were looking to get into 40k and we figured that getting Forgebane would be a good start as I'm interested in Nercons and him the Mechanicus. It was just discontinued on their website, but we can pick it up elsewhere. Is this a good idea?

The Mechanicus side of Forgebane is good. The Necron side is god awful. You're far, far, better off with the Necron "Start Collecting" box set.

Necrons are in a rather sad place at the moment. Their Reanimation is dependent on your opponent not being able to fully kill your units, so as points values go up they get worse. (Since the amount of firepower that the enemy can concentrate increases far beyond the survivability of each unit). They function best at around 1000~1500pts, and by 2000 have dropped a huge way. Also they lack firepower generally, Destroyers being one of their only high damage-output units.

That said, you can make almost anything work casually. You'll just find you'll be putting in alot more effort to make it work than many other people.

[LeSwordfish]

The necron side of forgebane is at least very characterful and interesting compared to the mechanicus side. If you're prepared to shell out a bit more, I think Forgebane and a Start Collecting box each would be a pretty good beginning.

[The_Admiral]

Anyone in this thread play Heresy?

[Renegade Paladin]

Only problem is, it's an elimination tournament.

Ewww. :smallyuk:

[Mystic Muse]

Anyone in this thread play Heresy?

I'm getting into it, and habr a few friends that do.

[The_Admiral]

I'm getting into it, and habr a few friends that do.

Which legion? Or Mechanicum/Solar Aux?

[Turalisj]

Slightly against T6-7 3+ save units with no invul. What even has that statline? Armored sentinels?

Predators, Armored Sentinels, Chimera, Rhinos, Hammerheads, Devilfish. You know, most transports and tanks.

[Mystic Muse]

Which legion? Or Mechanicum/Solar Aux?

I have a friend who plays Thousand Sons
A friend who plays Salamanders
A friend who plays Mechanicum
And a friend who is starting Emperor's Children


I chose Death Guard and am almost done with what I need to play games with Mortarion.

[Cheesegear]

So, by the end of Week 3 of our Narrative, Casual campaign, let's see what people are building in 1500 to lead to our final week of 2000...

Thousand Sons Mortal Wound Spam
Death Guard Mortal Wound Spam
Catachan Brigade
Cadian Brigade
Cadian Brigade #2
Iron Warriors Cultists with Death Guard Spearhead
Ultramarine castle with Tallarn Allies

Real casual, guys. Finally there's me...
Bad Knight with Black Templar allies (:smallfrown:)

[Destro_Yersul]

I don't think your meta knows how to do casual, Cheese.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

At least it's proof that Cheesegear does though!

[Turalisj]

Do they know it's supposed to be casual?

[tyckspoon]

Do they know it's supposed to be casual?

No but see they only took the second-best Warlord traits and relics. Casual AF.

[Cheesegear]

No but see they only took the second-best Warlord traits and relics. Casual AF.

Pretty much this.

The Catachan Brigade player specifically says his list is casual because 'It doesn't have a Knight Castellan'.
The Thousand Sons and Death Guard are apparently automatically casual because they don't include Ahriman or Typhus - ignoring the fact that named Characters are banned...I know for a fact that they'd be including Ahriman and Typhus if they were allowed. But, since named Characters are banned, they can use that excuse.

It's almost exactly what I was talking about towards the end of the last Thread;
If you don't run a net-list the best units you possibly can, is your Codex bad? ...Not necessarily. Particularly if your Faction's schtick is good to begin with.

An Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch isn't a Daemon Prince. But it still casts Smite at full-strength with no negs.
A Sorcerer in Terminator Armour isn't a Daemon Prince. But it still casts Smite at full-strength with no negs.

Poxwalkers without Typhus are only S/T 3. But they're still 6 Points each, have Ignore Wounds (5+), and don't take Morale.
Cold and Bitter with 60 Cultists, isn't Abaddon with 80 Cultists. So it's fine, right?

Lampshading a thing...And then doing the thing anyway...Is still doing the thing.

[Destro_Yersul]

So, a question. The miniatures thread has been dead for a while now, so I'm putting this here.

Would any of you lot be interested in following my progress painting Thousand Sons? I've got a tiny handful of things actually painted, and just finished priming a pile of stuff. I'm going to be doing a ton of painting over the next little while, and have been considering starting up a painting and hobby blog.

[Mystic Muse]

I would absolutely be interested.

[LeSwordfish]

I love seeing army blogs and things of that nature! I find a lot of that kind of thing is on Instagram these days.

[9mm]

Orks aren't the only army with buggies now... (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/24/24th-jan-genestealer-cults-preview-the-achilles-ridgerunnergw-homepage-post-4/)

[Brookshw]

Orks aren't the only army with buggies now... (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/24/24th-jan-genestealer-cults-preview-the-achilles-ridgerunnergw-homepage-post-4/)

I like the model, now lets see the stats and points!

Why does being able to shoot a flare make you more resistant to damage :smallconfused:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Yeah, it seems like it would have been better to have it modify to-hit rolls.

Also, interesting question: is there a reason we haven't seen any rr6 abilities yet? We have rr1 buffs and +1 buffs, and -1 debuffs, but no rr6 debuffs!

[DataNinja]

Why does being able to shoot a flare make you more resistant to damage :smallconfused:

I assume it's meant to represent something like "oh, you weren't able to really see it well, so you hit something less valuable". An abstraction, in this case, that doesn't actually mess with hits, just wounds.

[LeSwordfish]

Re-rolling sixes has a few unintended consequences - like bonuses making the nerf better, and shutting down abilities that trigger on a six.

[tyckspoon]

Re-rolling sixes has a few unintended consequences ... and shutting down abilities that trigger on a six.

Pretty sure that would absolutely be an intended consequence for that as a debuff. Your unit Does The Thing on a to-hit/wound of 6? Nah, reroll. Just as much as an intended consequence of 'reroll 1s' is that your overcharged plasma is less likely to blow up your own dude.

[LeSwordfish]

Yeah, and blowing up your plasma gun because your enemy can dodge good is very silly, and has caused unintended consequences through the meta, like stacking it completely shutting down certain weapons. That strikes me as precisely the sort of oddity they're trying to avoid.

[Grim Portent]

Orks aren't the only army with buggies now... (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/24/24th-jan-genestealer-cults-preview-the-achilles-ridgerunnergw-homepage-post-4/)

Oh cool, the spotter with the binoculars is a female hybrid. Along with the Magus for Kill Team that's two of them now isn't it?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Yeah I was considering that. I mean, I play Necrons, which means anything that means more 6s makes me very happy, and less 6s very sad. But it's an interesting mechanic that seems like an obvious one that they haven't used.

Re: Army Blogs, I love them. I keep a rarely updated one on Dakka (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/765882.page#10205606), but I make no claim to being anything more than amateur at best. I've only a few models that are up to my new tabletop standard (1 heavy destroyer just below where I'm happy with, and 5 lychguard that I'm happy with), with a special character on my table right now.

[Ornithologist]

Oh cool, the spotter with the binoculars is a female hybrid. Along with the Magus for Kill Team that's two of them now isn't it?

It is true, but I have been splicing in Escher gang members into my squads for a bit. and am working on kitbashing all the characters from necromunda ladies.

[Renegade Paladin]

So, the Knight of the Cog stratagem. I've been asked to rule on whether or not it can affect a single Imperial Knight in a super-heavy detachment. By the wording of Canticles of the Omnissiah (all units in the detachment must have this ability...) the obvious answer is no, but does the stratagem override that?

[Ionbound]

So I've come up with a genius idea to do a bunch of conversion work to create an Interex army that uses T'au rules. The issue being is that I'm totally inexperienced at the hobby side of 40k and working with models outside of very basic assembly stuff. So...This is gonna be exciting!

[Bobby Baratheon]

Are you looking to use just the Tau bodies with Imperial/other human heads and guns or are you looking at just swapping the helmets? Just swapping heads would be the simplest way to do it, but it would also be a little bland.

[Cheesegear]

I've been asked to rule on whether or not it can affect a single Imperial Knight in a super-heavy detachment.

No.
The Stratagem gives a single Knight the Canticles of the Omnissiah ability. Every unit in the entire AdMech book has that ability.

"If you have a Battle-forged army, units only receive the bonus if every model in the Detachment has the ability."
My emphasis is to show that the bonus, and the ability, are two different things.

Just having the ability doesn't do ****.
You give Knight of the Cog to a Knight. Cool. The Knight now has the Canticles of the Omnissiah ability.
Go to 'bonus check' ...Fail.

ION;
I've had my second Draw out of 3 games. Frankly I'm amazed how well my trash-tier army is doing.
But, that's the power of being able of tailor your list every game.

House Hawkshroud, Super-Heavy Detachment
Knight Errant; Heavy Stubber, Thermal Cannon, Reaper Chainsword, Ion Bulwark, Angel's Grace - 393 Points*
Armiger Warglaive; Heavy Stubber - 162 Points
Armiger Warglaive; Heavy Stubber - 162 Points

Black Templars, Battalion
Captain on Bike; Twin Boltgun, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield - 121 Points
Captain; Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 76 Points

Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 57 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 57 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 57 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 140 Points
Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 140 Points

Bloody Rose, Supreme Command
Canoness; Condemnor Boltgun, Power Sword, Brazier of Eternal Flame - 50 Points
Canoness; Power Maul - 49 Points
Missionary - 35 Points

Open the Reliquaries (-1 CP)

Total: 1499 Points | 11 CPs

* This model can't be Overwatch'd. Ranged attacks against this model have -1 to hit.

EDIT: inb4 I wouldn've preferred a 3rd Canoness, but I don't have the model. The only other model I've bought complete the Supreme Command is Celestine, and she's banned.

He knew I was taking a Knight. I think that's about it. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure he just thought my army was trash.

Thousand Sons, Supreme Command
(W) Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Wings
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Wings
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Wings

Death Guard, Spearhead
Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Wings

Plagueburst Crawler
Plagueburst Crawler
Plagueburst Crawler

Questor Traitorus
Renegade Knight; Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet

Knight Gallants are really good, though!
...Yeah, not when they're Chaos. lol.

The Mission was Draw 3 (up to 6 actives), and randomly discard an Objective every time a Character dies.
...I was doing real bad. Just 'cause I could Deny Powers, doesn't mean his models weren't still Daemon Princes-hiding-behind-Plaguebursts. :smallsigh:
At the end of it...Draw.

New Rapid Fire rules don't do ****.
S4, AP- is nothing. Even with Storm Bolters.
What you really want (if you care about Rapid Fire Bolt weapons) is Intercessors and Deathwatch. That's it.

[Renegade Paladin]

No.
The Stratagem gives a single Knight the Canticles of the Omnissiah ability. Every unit in the entire AdMech book has that ability.

"If you have a Battle-forged army, units only receive the bonus if every model in the Detachment has the ability."
My emphasis is to show that the bonus, and the ability, are two different things.

Just having the ability doesn't do ****.
You give Knight of the Cog to a Knight. Cool. The Knight now has the Canticles of the Omnissiah ability.
Go to 'bonus check' ...Fail.
Makes the Stratagem kind of worthless then, doesn't it? Unless there's a way to get a Knight into a Mechanicus detachment; I don't know if Questor Mechanicus have the right keywords to do that or not.

[LansXero]

Makes the Stratagem kind of worthless then, doesn't it? Unless there's a way to get a Knight into a Mechanicus detachment; I don't know if Questor Mechanicus have the right keywords to do that or not.

Can do it to a knight in a SHAD no?

[Cheesegear]

Makes the Stratagem kind of worthless then, doesn't it?

The Stratagem was orginally intended for a Knight, in a SHAD, running alongside an AdMech army.
The Knights' Codex hasn't changed that.

[LeSwordfish]

New Kelermorph looks pretty cool. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/25/25th-jan-warhammer-40000-new-charactersgw-homepage-post-1/) By themselves, the pistols aren't much to write home about, but combine with his rules and he does five wounds on average to a T4, 3+ character, or three to a T4, 2+ character. He gets a +3 to Cult Ambush, which means that even a character hiding way behind a troops line isn't safe. Split fire and he could kill two Company Commanders in his first turn.

[Ionbound]

Are you looking to use just the Tau bodies with Imperial/other human heads and guns or are you looking at just swapping the helmets? Just swapping heads would be the simplest way to do it, but it would also be a little bland.

My plan was to use T'au bodies with AoS bows and heads for the strike team and figure out some kind of Centaur-like conversion for the Battlesuit units to reflect the Interex lore.

[Brookshw]

New Kelermorph looks pretty cool. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/25/25th-jan-warhammer-40000-new-charactersgw-homepage-post-1/) By themselves, the pistols aren't much to write home about, but combine with his rules and he does five wounds on average to a T4, 3+ character, or three to a T4, 2+ character. He gets a +3 to Cult Ambush, which means that even a character hiding way behind a troops line isn't safe. Split fire and he could kill two Company Commanders in his first turn.

He's nifty. But let's talk about that AdMech model. Giant gut, picking nose, he is going to fly off the shelf for those reasons alone!

[druid91]

He's nifty. But let's talk about that AdMech model. Giant gut, picking nose, he is going to fly off the shelf for those reasons alone!

His bonuses are nifty, but I don't think they're particularly game changing. But yeah, I'm just happy for new mechanicus models that aren't terrain.

Now if only there was a way I could weaponize terrain....

Also he's double picking his nose. Hard to see the second mechanical hand twined with the meat one.

[Blackhawk748]

He's nifty. But let's talk about that AdMech model. Giant gut, picking nose, he is going to fly off the shelf for those reasons alone!

The model is... Bad. His rules are fine, except that they boost gunlines...again. Seriously GW, stop boosting gunlines!

[Turalisj]

The model is... Bad. His rules are fine, except that they boost gunlines...again. Seriously GW, stop boosting gunlines!

He also buffs assault units, +1 to charge is nice. Giving robots +4 to charge total is hilarious.

[Blackhawk748]

He also buffs assault units, +1 to charge is nice. Giving robots +4 to charge total is hilarious.

I don't think getting into CC was ever really an issue for Ad Mech.

[Cheesegear]

The model is... Bad.

The model is inspired by - perhaps even created by - by John Blanche, who had a featured article in White Dwarf - 'Blanchitsu' - for several months. Unfortunately, given what we've seen in the last few years, what John Blanche does, feels dated.


His rules are fine, except that they boost gunlines...again.

Except that they boost gunlines the wrong way.
I'm sure AdMech players were hoping for +1 or re-rolls to wound.


As always, nothing means anything without points costs. Which WC doesn't give.

[Blackhawk748]

The model is inspired by - perhaps even created by - by John Blanche, who had a featured article in White Dwarf - 'Blanchitsu' - for several months. Unfortunately, given what we've seen in the last few years, what John Blanche does, feels dated.


I've seen his work, and I generally like it, I just want my Tech Priest to look like a bloody tentacled saw blender, like Archmagos Saphentis from Dark Adeptus, instead of the bloated metal...thing that we have there.


Except that they boost gunlines the wrong way.
I'm sure AdMech players were hoping for +1 or re-rolls to wound.


As always, nothing means anything without points costs. Which WC doesn't give.

Agreed, Range was never our issue. Also I find it odd that it boosts guns under 24", 3". Im not usre why it feels weird to me, it just does, but I would have much appreciated a re-roll 1s to wound aura.

[Cheesegear]

I've seen his work, and I generally like it...

Blanchitsu is great. I love it. However, what it has, is consistency. Grimdark conversions and muted sepia and brown tones. Looks great.

Unfortunately, none of my models look like that. I can't see myself putting down the Manipulus on my shelf, next to my other AdMech unit and have it look...Good. The Manipulus looks like a Chaos model. It just does. Here's a trick you can do at home...Take the image of the Manipulus, turn off the colour saturation. Add a sepia filter... Or just look up that exact image.

This is why I had to paint my Guilliman up as Deathwatch. Because having a big, blue hero, in my army of blacks and reds would've looked bad.

Posted from phone.

[Drasius]

Blanchitsu is great. I love it. However, what it has, is consistency. Grimdark conversions and muted sepia and brown tones. Looks great.

I've always felt that the style was great for daemons, but was a bit off for everything else. In fact, the reason why I feel that it works so well for daemons, is because it feels a bit off, and they're meant to be the unreal made real.

[Forum Explorer]

I've always felt that the style was great for daemons, but was a bit off for everything else. In fact, the reason why I feel that it works so well for daemons, is because it feels a bit off, and they're meant to be the unreal made real.

He does kinda look like a Nurgle model.

[Destro_Yersul]

My favourite thing about the techpriest is that he's got an alembic on his back for no particular reason.

Speaking of goofy-looking minis, I was looking at the various Primarchs Forge World has released thus far. Do they just not know how to sculpt decent looking faces or something? Vulkan is all right, but a lot of them look kinda silly.

[Brookshw]

Assuming no changes to the Goliath Truck, I'm having a hard time seeing why it might be preferable to a Chimera. Anyone have thoughts/preferences between the two?

[Turalisj]

It's open topped, has a FnP, and has demo charges.

[Wardog]

Oh cool, the spotter with the binoculars is a female hybrid. Along with the Magus for Kill Team that's two of them now isn't it?

Some of the bikers look female (or plausibly female) as well.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/01/1st-dec-the-top-5-things-to-look-forward-to-in-2019gw-homepage-post-3/#gallery-11-2

In any case, I was planning on getting a few of the cult bikers to use as Rough Riders, but with all these other models coming out, and depending on what the actual rules are, I may well end up adding a whole GSC detachment to my Guard army.

[LudDavenport]

I assume it is because codex GSC is coming soon, but did anyone else notice the lack of points changes to the index in chapter approved? At least they got some of the weapon cost reductions. Still, now the cult sentinel is strictly worse then a guard sentinel, before the lack of subfaction rules.

[Destro_Yersul]

I actually really like the look of a lot of the GSC models. I know I want Knights, and I have to finish my Thousand Sons, but after that...

[Brookshw]

In any case, I was planning on getting a few of the cult bikers to use as Rough Riders, but with all these other models coming out, and depending on what the actual rules are, I may well end up adding a whole GSC detachment to my Guard army.

Unless they drastically change the brood brother rules, won't you basically not be playing guard at that point?

[Cheesegear]

In any case, I was planning on getting a few of the cult bikers to use as Rough Riders, but with all these other models coming out, and depending on what the actual rules are, I may well end up adding a whole GSC detachment to my Guard army.

GSC currently make Guard worse. Brood Brothers is a trash rule for trash people.
You add Guard to GSC. Not the other way 'round.

[9mm]

Reviews of Kill Team Arena are starting to drop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5l2GpSEUlI)

huh, not quite what I was expecting.

[Avaris]

Kill team Arena looks interesting. Not a thing I'm at all interested in playing myself, but I'm curious to see how it develops. Definitely fits into my theory of how GW is wanting competitive play to develop towards smaller scale systems that can be a more controlled experience: assuming Arena proves to actually be a vaguely balanced experience it is a much more viable proposition for tournaments that can complete in a day. The strictly symmetrical set up and rules around kill team selection sound like a good prospect for competitive gaming which is more balanced than base 40k, so I wish it well!

I feel the pricing might be a barrier though: needing to have one pack for every two players is a significant cost. Presumably the hope is for interested players to pick copies up themselves and bring them along to tournaments, rather than it all being on the TO, but for what you get £55 seems quite steep.

ION, played the second session of the narrative escalation game I'm participating in. Two games, 1000 points, my Sisters remain undefeated.

Game 1 was against the same Nids player as last time: his army remains solely close combat, and I was lucky enough that the first turn charges he got weren't especially effective, primarily due to his Broodlord getting overwatched to death when it double-charged my Penitent Engine and Immolator, and having a bubble within which all my Sisters had a 4+ invulnerable save. Sufficient close range firepower basically had him table at end of my turn 2.

Second game was against Death Guard: much closer, I won due to being more mobile so reaching the objectives first. It was a scenario that awarded points at the end of each turn, so by turn 5 I had accrued an unassailable lead. Struggled against his armour though!

Suspect I'll sub in a knight next time... 1250 points seems a reasonable point to do so.

[Squark]

Welp, here we go again.

I'm getting back into 40k after a couple year's hiatus. It started with just kill team, but I kept browsing fluff and army guides, and I finally picked up some rules last night. Of course, there's some sticker shock there, as aside from 2 codexes (Space Wolves and Necrons) and the rulebook, there's also these newfangled indexes and those Ancient Chapter Approved things have made a comeback. Right now, all I have is Index: Imperium I (Don't worry, I did my research. The unit that really sold me on 8th is index exclusive), but I'll be picking up the codexes and rulebook over the next few months. I have to ask, though: It looks like I'll need Chapter Approved 2018 for the most up to date point values, but is the previous volume necessary for Space Wolves and Necrons?

Edit: Preliminary 750 point list obviously innacurate due to using the index, but I thought I'd submit it for appraisal. The bikers are kind of the centerpiece of the list (They're what drew me back), but the troops are just what I thought would go well with them. I'm also not 100% sure what wargear to use for the bikers. Should I keep them cheap with Chainswords, or give them some extra durability with storm shields?

Patrol Detachment (Space Wolves)

HQ: Wolf Lord on Bike -125 points
-Thunder Hammer and Storm Bolter

Troops: 6 Grey Hunters -219 points
-Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
-Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Combi-plasma
-Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons

6 Grey Hunters -219 points
-Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
-Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Combi-plasma
-Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons

Elites: 5 Wolf Guard Bikers -180 points
-Storm Bolters

Total: 743 points

[Blackhawk748]

The price point on Arena has me write it off immediately. That is way too much money for what I'm getting in return, which is a genral problem I have with GW in general. Yes your minis are nice, but your price point is way to high for how many I have to buy, which is why I use other minis for the majority of my forces.

[Avaris]

I have to ask, though: It looks like I'll need Chapter Approved 2018 for the most up to date point values, but is the previous volume necessary for Space Wolves and Necrons?

You won’t need 2017: both Necrons and Space Wolves had their codexes released in 2018, so they weren’t included in the 2017 edition. I’m not actually sure there’ll be any updated points values for them in 2018 either: GW has stupid lead times on printing, so they might be too recent.

In any case, I wouldn’t recommend Chapter Approved of any year if the only thing your after is points values. By all rights they should be freely available, and there are other means of getting them. I’d certainly consider CA for the other content, missions and battle zones for example, but it isn’t a necessary product.

Edit:

The price point on Arena has me write it off immediately. That is way too much money for what I'm getting in return, which is a genral problem I have with GW in general. Yes your minis are nice, but your price point is way to high for how many I have to buy, which is why I use other minis for the majority of my forces.

At the price point you can easily buy into Kill Team as a brand new player for about £100, which feels sort of ok compared to buy in for semi-competitive 40k, but I’m still conflicted. For what you get in Arena, it should be about £30 I reckon, particularly as this is a product GW needs to have good uptake for if they want their competitive Kill Team environment to exist.

[Renegade Paladin]

So the doubles tournament I hosted was yesterday. Dark Eldar and Imperial Knights were a really popular combo for some reason, but the winner was Orks backed by a Russ Spearhead.

[Blackhawk748]

At the price point you can easily buy into Kill Team as a brand new player for about £100, which feels sort of ok compared to buy in for semi-competitive 40k, but I’m still conflicted. For what you get in Arena, it should be about £30 I reckon, particularly as this is a product GW needs to have good uptake for if they want their competitive Kill Team environment to exist.

Its too much for what you're getting. Starter Sets for 40k are at a similat price point so they're competing with themselves, not to mention the fact that if I want to do Kill Team I can just buy a box or two and go play Heralds of Ruin Kill Team, and the rules for that are free.

Basically, cut the price in half and we'll talk.

[LansXero]

Its too much for what you're getting. Starter Sets for 40k are at a similat price point so they're competing with themselves, not to mention the fact that if I want to do Kill Team I can just buy a box or two and go play Heralds of Ruin Kill Team, and the rules for that are free.

Basically, cut the price in half and we'll talk.

The rules for everything are free. unless TOs / Store Owners want to stick their heads in the ground and pretend otherwise, but thats not healthy for business. You work around that, not pretend it doesnt exist.

Arena is really underwhelming, but so have been most Kill Team releases: the boxed sets, commanders and now this.

On related news, second round of our 3-week league is underway. Heroclix maps make surprisingly good mats for Kill Team and help a lot with noting down terrain, special locations, etc.

[Forum Explorer]

Welp, here we go again.

I'm getting back into 40k after a couple year's hiatus. It started with just kill team, but I kept browsing fluff and army guides, and I finally picked up some rules last night. Of course, there's some sticker shock there, as aside from 2 codexes (Space Wolves and Necrons) and the rulebook, there's also these newfangled indexes and those Ancient Chapter Approved things have made a comeback. Right now, all I have is Index: Imperium I (Don't worry, I did my research. The unit that really sold me on 8th is index exclusive), but I'll be picking up the codexes and rulebook over the next few months. I have to ask, though: It looks like I'll need Chapter Approved 2018 for the most up to date point values, but is the previous volume necessary for Space Wolves and Necrons?

Edit: Preliminary 750 point list obviously innacurate due to using the index, but I thought I'd submit it for appraisal. The bikers are kind of the centerpiece of the list (They're what drew me back), but the troops are just what I thought would go well with them. I'm also not 100% sure what wargear to use for the bikers. Should I keep them cheap with Chainswords, or give them some extra durability with storm shields?

Patrol Detachment (Space Wolves)

HQ: Wolf Lord on Bike -125 points
-Thunder Hammer and Storm Bolter

Troops: 6 Grey Hunters -219 points
-Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
-Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Combi-plasma
-Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons

6 Grey Hunters -219 points
-Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
-Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Combi-plasma
-Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons

Elites: 5 Wolf Guard Bikers -180 points
-Storm Bolters

Total: 743 points

It's easy enough to find the point changes from Chapter Approved 2018 online. I wouldn't buy it it that's all you are after. Chapter approved also put in all the point changes from 2017, so you only need the one. You do need the Codex though.

Anyways, I would suggest picking up Power Fists in each squad. The Space Wolf bonus is +1 to hit, so it makes Power Fists actually pretty decent.




In other news today was my tournament! And to start I didn't get to play because my alarm didn't go off! :smallfrown:
These phones have the worst default features. It's loud, I have to manually turn off the beeping (very loud beeping) for every single app for notifications. I have to delete each timer before I can use the next. And for some stupid reason the default alarm only runs from Monday to Friday. So it didn't go off, I didn't get to play. Stupid phone, and stupid me for not catching that at 1:00 in the morning.

So I got replaced by what I think was a Deathwatch player, but might have just been Space Marines. His stuff wasn't painted. But I did get a game in (it was also open gaming) and got to watch the tournament.

Round 1:
(Tyranids vs Guilliman) = Guilliman victory!
Apparently the Tyranid player had some awful rolls, being needing to fight twice and shoot twice to kill a single squad of Hellblasters and a Dreadnaught respectively. And then to Smite down Guilliman he rolled double 1s with his Neurothrope into double 2s. Still a close game, and if he took Recon instead of Big Game Hunter he would've won.

(Iron Hands/Grey Knights vs Sisters of Battle) = Sisters of Battle victory! The Grey Knight's luck finally ran out I guess.

(Drukhari vs Deathwatch?) = Deathwatch victory! No idea what happened here.

(Thousand Sons vs Ultramarines) = Thousand Sons Victory! Guess what happened. :smallamused:

Round 2:
(Guilliman vs Deathwatch?): The Deathwatch player had a lot of bikes. He got toasted.

(Thousand Sons vs Sisters of Battle): Sisters of Battle are a hard counter to Thousand Sons with that relic. Which of course he took. And he was rolling hot for his Denies. The Thousand Sons player didn't get off a single power turn 2.

Round 3:
(Sisters of Battle vs Guilliman): Guilliman won. The Sisters player misunderstood Kingslayer, and selected it against Guilliman thinking it was every 2 wounds, not every 4 wounds. He also put one Pentient Engine in the corner to collect Recon points instead of a 5 man sister squad. So Guilliman smashed him. He lost all his Hellblasters, but still had all of his Dreadnaughts and Guilliman killing stuff.

[Cheesegear]

So, Straya Day Weekend happened, so 140 players went down to a big shed in Canberra.

Honourable Mentions

T'au, Battalion
Fireblade
(W) Coldstar; Missile Pods (x3), ATS

Strike Team (x10)
Strike Team (x10)
Strike Team (x5)

Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS, ATS, Target Lock
Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS, ATS, Target Lock

Shield Drones (x7)
Shield Drones (x6)
Shield Drones (x6)

Broadsides (x3); HYMP, SMS, ATS

T'au, Battalion
Darkstrider
Shadowsun

Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)

Sa'cea, Vanguard
Ethereal
Coldstar; Missile Pods (x3), ATS

Firesight Marksman
Firesight Marksman
Firesight Marksman

Seems legit. ITC is weird like that.

Cadian, Spearhead
(W) Creed
Master of Ordnance
Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars
Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars
Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars

Catachan, Brigade
Company Commander; Power Sword
Company Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
Straken

Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword

Platoon Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
Platoon Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
Priest

Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon
Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon
Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon

Basilisk; Heavy Bolter
Manticore; Heavy Bolter
Manticore; Heavy Bolter

Krast
Knight Castellan

Sure thing.

Death Guard, Spearhead
(W) Daemon Prince with Wings; Sappurating Plate

Foetid Bloat-Drone; Spitters & Probe
Foetid Bloat-Drone; Spitters & Probe

Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought; Butcher Cannon Arrays
Plagueburst Crawler
Plagueburst Crawler

SHAD
Mortarion

SHAD
Magnus the Red

T'au, Battalion
Shadowsun
Darkstrider
Ethereal

Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)

Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS (x2), ATS, Velocity Tracker Weird.

Shield Drones (x8)
Shield Drones (x8)
Shield Drones (x6)

Broadsides (x3), HYMP (x6), SMS (x6), ATS

T'au, Battalion
Fireblade
Coldstar; Burst Cannon, HOBC, Missile Pod, ATS

Strike Team (x12)
Strike Team (x12)
Strike Team (x5)

T'au, Outrider
Fireblade

Dahyek Grekh This is the dude from Blackstone Fortress.

Pathfinders (x9); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone
Pathfinders (x9); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone
Pathfinders (x8); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone

I'm so confused. But that's ITC for you.

Y'all ready for this...

Bloody Rose, Brigade
(W) Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Maul
Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Sword
Missionary

Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Arco-Flagellants (x6)
Celestians (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Power Maul
Celestians (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Power Maul
Dialogus

Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword
Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword
Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword

Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)
Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)
Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)

Ebon Chalice, Supreme Command
Celestine
Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Maul
Missionary

Imagifier Hahahahahaha. Index/2 doesn't invalidate Index/1.

Blood Angels, Supreme Command
Librarian Dreadnought
Captain with Jump Pack; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
Tycho the Lost wat

Cue people thinking that Sororitas Storm Bolters aren't even good. Then again, if you know the meta is Fearless hordes, what's better than 9 Point chicks with Storm Bolters?

Evil Sunz, Battalion
(W) Warboss; Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Attack Squig
Big Mek; Kustom Force Field

Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs
Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs
Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs

Evil Sunz, Battalion
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
Weirdboy

Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa
Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa
Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa

Bad Moons, Battalion
Warboss; Shoota, Big Choppa, Attack Squig
Big Mek; Kustom Force Field

Gretchin (x30)
Gretchin (x30)
Gretchin (x30)

Lootas (x15)
Lootas (x10)

inb4 Ork player; "I'm too good to use Grot Shields. #NotMyOrks."


Krast, Super-Heavies
Armiger Warglaive; Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaive; Heavy Stubber
(C) Knight Crusader; Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubbers (x2), Ironstorm Missile Pod, RFBC

Mars, Battalion
Belisarius Cawl
(W) Tech-Priest Enginseer

Skitarii Rangers (x5)
Skitarii Vanguard (x5)
Kataphron Destroyers (x3); Cognis Flamers (x3), Plasma Culverins (x3)

Cybernetica Datasmith; Gamma Pistol, Power Fist

Kastelan Robots (x2); Heavy Phosphor Blasters (x6)
Onager Dunecrawler; Cognis Heavy Stubbers (x2), Neutron Laser, Broad-Spectrum Data-Tether
Onager Dunecrawler; Cognis Heavy Stubbers (x2), Neutron Laser, Broad-Spectrum Data-Tether

Assassins, Vanguard
Callidus
Culexus
Culexus

Daemons, Battalion
(W) Bloodmaster; Rage Incarnate, The Crimson Crown
Sloppity Bilepiper

Bloodletters (x28); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

Nurgle, Battalion
Poxbringer
Spoilpox Scrivener

Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

Fortification
Feculant Gnarlmaw

Christ on a plate. 200 models and change. Fair play, mate.

Harlequins, Vanguard
(W) Troupe Master; Power Sword, Player of the Twilight, The Storied Sword <Midnight Sorrow>

Solitaire; Cegorach's Rose <Midnight Sorrow>
Death Jester <Dreaming Shadow>
Death Jester <Dreaming Shadow>

Ulthwé, Battalion
Eldrad Ulthran
Warlock Skyrunner

Rangers (x5)
Rangers (x5)
Rangers (x10)

Prophets of Flesh, Battalion
Urien Rakarth
Haemonculus; Hexrifle, Venom Blade, Vexator Mask

Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade
Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade
Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade

Grotesques (x10)
Grotesques (x9)
Grotesques (x9)

It made Top 8 so I apparently don't know anything anymore.

Thousand Sons, Supreme Command
Ahriman on Disc
(W) Daemon Prince with Wings
Sorcerer on Disc
Sorcerer on Disc

Chaos Daemons, Battalion
Daemon Prince with Wings; Axe, <Khorne> Pretty sure to get the <Titan>-killing Axe.
Poxbringer; Balesword

Bloodletters (x28); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x29); Champion
Pink Horrors (x25)

<Tzeentch>, Battalion
Changecaster
Sorcerer

Brimstone Horrors (x30)
Tzaangors (x29); Musician & Champion
Tzaangors (x21); Musician & Champion

It's lists like these that make me wish I played Chaos. I mean...Fluff is right out the window, 'cause who gives a ****? But each unit is different whilst still being effective at what it does.

Krast, Super-Heavies
Knight Gallant
(W) Knight Crusader; Avenger, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Missile Pod
Armiger Warglaive; Heavy Stubber

Cadia, Battalion[/U]
Company Commander
Tank Commander; Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolters (x3)

Infantry Squad; Mortar, Sniper Rifle
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Sniper Rifle
Infantry Squad; Sniper Rifle

Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars
Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars

Dark Angels, Air Wing
Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2)
Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2)
Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2) I'm not sure if CanCon was using new Bolter rules, but these would be even better if it was the case.

I don't see anything wrong here. I like this list a lot. A place for everything, and everything in its place.

Nurgle Daemons, Battalion
Poxbringer
Sloppity Bilepiper
Spoilpox Scrivener

Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

Fortification
Feculant Gnarlmaw

Chaos Daemons, Supreme Command
Bloodmaster
(W) Fluxmaster
Fluxmaster

Summoning (~500)

A key important rule is that Summoning doesn't count as Reinforcements, which means you're allowed to do it on Turn 1. Boom.
As always, you do not have to tell your opponent what you have 'in Reserve', because fact is, you don't know (although you definitely do).


Bad Moons, Batallion
(W) Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun
Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)

Tankbustas (x15); Rokkits (x15), Bomb Squigs (x6)

Lootas (x15)

Evil Sunz, Battalion
Warboss; Kombi-Skorcha, Big Choppa
Weirdboy

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)

Meganobz (x10); Kustom Shootas (x10), Power Klaws (x10)
Meganobz (x10); Kustom Shootas (x10), Power Klaws (x10)

Blood Axes, Battalion
Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun
Weirdboy

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)

Once again, 'real Ork players' have a cry about Gretchin being a competitive unit. What do you expect? They're 3 Points each and literally protect your other models. Whilst also being Objective Secured.

Valhalla, Battalion
(W) Company Commander
Company Commander

Conscripts (x30)
Infantry Squad; Mortar
Infantry Squad; Mortar

Wyvern; Heavy Bolter

Deathwatch, Battalion
Watch Master
Librarian with Jump Pack; Force Stave, Storm Bolter

Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
- Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
- Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
- Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
- Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
- Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
- Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
- Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
- Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
- Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
- Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
- Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
- Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

Krast
Crusader; Avenger Gatling, RFBC, Stormspear Rocket Pod

Maybe they are using the rules for Bolt weapons? If you know the meta is hordes, bring Storm Bolters...Deathwatch Storm Bolters. Use Combat Squads to have the Biker and Terminators run around with Relentless Storm Bolters, whilst your Veterans stay on points with the Watch Master. It's not rocket science.



Undefeated

Leviathan, Battalion
Neurothrope
(W) Malanthrope

Termagants (x27)
Termagants (x27)
Termagants (x26)
Termagants (x26)
Termagants (x25)
Termagants (x25)

Biovores (x2)

Kraken, Battalion
Old One Eye
Broodlord; Ymgarl Factor

Rippers (x3)
Rippers (x3)
Rippers (x3)

GSC, Supreme Command
Magus
Patriarch
Primus

Purestrains (x18); Rending Claws

Fearless hordes OP.
ITC is bat****. 'Nuff said.

Things I learned;
Exalted Court for House Krast so your shooty Knight re-rolls all its 1s. Then add Headsman's Mark to make it's Avenger Cannon 3 Damage.
The ITC Missions still make no sense to me because 'You can choose how you win.' The only thing you and your opponent need to do is hold 1 Objective and kill 1 unit per turn. Other than that you and your opponent aren't even playing the same game.

[LansXero]

So, Straya Day Weekend happened, so 140 players went down to a big shed in Canberra.

Things I learned;
Exalted Court for House Krast so your shooty Knight re-rolls all its 1s. Then add Headsman's Mark to make it's Avenger Cannon 3 Damage.
The ITC Missions still make no sense to me because 'You can choose how you win.' The only thing you and your opponent need to do is hold 1 Objective and kill 1 unit per turn. Other than that you and your opponent aren't even playing the same game.

The strat that lets it ignore all -to hit is welcome as well. Silly lists, we'll likely have a ton of fun trying new things from them, but damn do they look nothing at all like what we play / consider good.

[Cheesegear]

Silly lists [...] but damn do they look nothing at all like what we play / consider good.

They're silly lists because the ITC is silly.

The ITC format is supposed to 'fix' what's wrong with 40K at any given time. In a way, the ITC competitors are supposed to be on the cutting edge of the game...With which FLG can take that data back to GW where GW can do nothing make changes as they see fit, based on whether or not something was intended to be that way.

The way to do this, obviously, was to allow Factions to play to their strengths. "Choose how you win." That way, say, just castle up and win a T'au army doesn't need to cross the board to win games. That's all well and good, and I fully support it, and give it an 'A' for effort...

But a 'D' in execution. Fact is, 40K is still a game, where statistics and numbers rule. With one of the core tenets of the game being "Whoever has the most models on the board, is more likely to win games." The ITC doesn't change that...In fact, it pretty much reinforces it. Just cluster everything around one or two Objectives in your own DZ and kill 1-4 units per turn. You can kill more than 4 units per turn, but there's no real reason to do. So why bother? Just keep everything cheap so you can have more of it.
After all, no matter how many units you take...It still isn't worth your opponent's time killing more than 4 units per turn - if that. Unless they're going for a tabling. Except if you've got 150 models on the board...Your opponent isn't going to table you anytime soon...So just go back to killing the minimum you need to.

inb4 Age of Sigmar defense;
There's no to wound modifiers except on specific units, which makes no sense.
Multi-Damage weapons carry over into the next model, which makes no sense.

[Brookshw]

snip

Huh, not much synapse in that nid list. And what was OOE for. :smallconfused: looks like ork #8 should have been able to give them a run for their money.

Oh, hey, a wyvern!

[LeSwordfish]

Wow, what are all these different Daemon characters suddenly? What's a fluxmaster? Did their codex add stuff?

[Cheesegear]

Huh, not much synapse in that nid list.

There's loads of Synapse. Conga line one model to the Synapase and you're done.
Welcome to ITC.


And what was OOE for.

He's a Character with 9 Wounds. What do you mean what's he for?


Wow, what are all these different Daemon characters suddenly? What's a fluxmaster? Did their codex add stuff?

Bloodmaster = Herald of Khorne
Skullmaster = ...on Juggernaut
Blood Throne = ...on Chariot

Changecaster = Herald of Tzeentch
Fateskimmer = ...on Chariot
Fluxmaster = ...on Disc

Poxbringer = Herald of Nurgle.
Sloppity Bilepiper = Different Herald.
Spoilpox Scrivener = Even more different Herald.

Basically...Blame Age of Sigmar, and the fact that they need to sell the same model over two systems.

Heralds of Slaanesh still exist because GW forgot to make new Sigmar models for Slaanesh until five seconds ago.

[LeSwordfish]

And here I was thinking a fluxmaster was a particularly expensive brand of headphones. Odd that they renamed everything for 40k but didnt bother for AOS.

[Cheesegear]

And here I was thinking a fluxmaster was a particularly expensive brand of headphones. Odd that they renamed everything for 40k but didnt bother for AOS.

lol
In AoS it appears they renamed the Khorne and Nurgle ones.
But not the Tzeentch ones.
Weird.

EDIT:
To know that...I checked the webstore. Not Battletomes.
Marketing might not match up with the game.

[hamishspence]

Flux can mean change, but it can also mean dysentery. Kind of ironic that a Tzeentch name would fit Nurgle almost equally well.

[Brookshw]

There's loads of Synapse. Conga line one model to the Synapase and you're done.
Welcome to ITC. Hard to argue with results at any rate.



He's a Character with 9 Wounds. What do you mean what's he for? And? He priced higher than other HQ units, provides no synapse, synergizes Carnifexes which are non-existent in this army. I guess he's the only anti-tank they have, but this isn't an army built on killing things so not sure why one unit of anti-tank is needed in the first place.

[LansXero]

SECTOR MECHANICUS TECTONIC FRAGDRILL $60,00
CODEX: GENESTEALER CULTS (HB) (ENGLISH) $40,00
DATACARDS: GENESTEALER CULTS (SPANISH) $15,00
DATACARDS: GENESTEALER CULTS (ENGLISH) $15,00
GENESTEALER CULTS CLAMAVUS $25,00
GENESTEALER CULTS LOCUS $25,00
GENESTEALER CULTS MAGUS $25,00
GENESTEALER CULTS NEXOS $25,00
GENESTEALER CULTS SANCTUS $25,00
GENESTEALER CULTS BROOD BROTHERS $40,00
GENESTEALER CULTS ATALAN JACKALS $55,00
GENESTEALER CULTS JACKAL ALPHUS $35,00
GENESTEALER CULTS DICE $30,00


GW prices for single models are still broken. But then thats old news.

More importantly, FW is finally releasing Sanguinius! And... he looks boring as hell. I dont know if its the generic Bretonian horse wings, the using a greatsword to pierce, not cut, the stiff pose, or what but he looks very underwhelming.

Sources:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/27/pre-order-preview-genestealer-cults/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/28/28th-jan-sanguinius-the-model-revealedfw-homepage-post-1/

[Wraith]

The price point on Arena has me write it off immediately. That is way too much money for what I'm getting in return, which is a genral problem I have with GW in general. Yes your minis are nice, but your price point is way to high for how many I have to buy, which is why I use other minis for the majority of my forces.

I don't think that I will be alone in saying that I'll be quite happy to wait for a week and then pick up the book/tiles/cards for peanuts on eBay after everyone else has done breaking down the sprues and selling the miniatures to collectors.
I want to play Kill Team: Arena, but I'm not prepared to put down that amount of money to then have yet more models that - as pretty as they are - I have no interest in building, painting or playing.


(Iron Hands/Grey Knights vs Sisters of Battle) = Sisters of Battle victory! The Grey Knight's luck finally ran out I guess.

I remember you describing the Iron Hands' list a few days ago and being confused as to what he was hoping to achieve with such a non-meta choice. Did that ever become apparent, or was it a radical experiment that was doomed to failure before it got off the ground?

[Cheesegear]

And? He priced higher than other HQ units

He can't be targeted, and even if he does get targeted, he's got 9 Wounds and Regen. He can't even be one-shotted by an Oathbreaker.
When you've got 100+ models in front of you, not being targeted is a big deal.


provides no synapse

He can't be targeted.

Why do you even need Synapse?
A single Synapse model covers a 24" circle, not including Dominion or Synaptic Lynchpin.

If one model is within range, the entire unit is. With ~30 model units, you can cover the entire board, and still remain within range to a single Synapse model.

The only reason you need more Synapse is if either
a) You're running Hive Tyrants and/or Swarmlord, who can be targeted, and therefore die on Turn 1 (or just straight up aren't on the board because they're in Reserve), or
b) You plan on moving the Synapse model, and thus, the Synapse circle changes position.

If you have a Synapse model that can't be targeted, and doesn't change position? Who cares how much Synapse you don't have. You have all the Synapse you need.


synergizes Carnifexes which are non-existent in this army

He can't be targeted.


I guess he's the only anti-tank they have

He's an anti-Turn 1 Charge unit. If you Charge the Termagants, the Swarm opens up and your unit gets crushed.


The most important takeaway that I can impart is two-fold...
1. Tournament players don't play their Factions, or the game, the way a normal person would, and
2. ITC players definitely don't play the same way normal people do (and that's a big problem, IMO).

I can't stress this anywhere more obviously than with Orks.
Gretchin are one of the best units in the book.
But who plays Orks to put ~100 Gretchin on the board? :smallconfused:

T'au; It's all cheap Infantry and Shield Drones. Where's all the 'Suits? Oh wait. 'Suits aren't cheap Infantry holding Objectives. :smallsigh:
See that big fancy Hive Tyrant you've got? ...It's garbage.


More importantly, FW is finally releasing Sanguinius! And... he looks boring as hell. I dont know if its the generic Bretonian horse wings, the using a greatsword to pierce, not cut, the stiff pose, or what but he looks very underwhelming.

He's the Archangel Michael, to Horus' Lucifer. I know that image anywhere.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Guido_Reni_031.jpg

https://www.crystal-life.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/p-49299-archangel_st-1._mi_4b4ae2503b31f_1.jpg

...But, that said. Doesn't make it a good model, though.

[9mm]

Who's ready to play Space Hulk on a 6'x4' Battlefield? (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/28/genestealer-cults-rules-preview-part-1/)

[Wraith]

More importantly, FW is finally releasing Sanguinius! And... he looks boring as hell. I dont know if its the generic Bretonian horse wings, the using a greatsword to pierce, not cut, the stiff pose, or what but he looks very underwhelming.

I'm *really* not a fan of the "I'm flying around with a pointy rock stuck RIGHT up my butt" poses. Some miniatures get away with it by virtue of being nicely balanced on the base, like Astorath the Grim, but it looks a bit weird most of the time.

A model as big and as prominent as Sanguinius needs to look it's absolute best, and I think that they ought to have had him standing upright with his wings aloft, beatific and regal. I know they're going for a dynamic pose in order to have him in a diorama with one of his brothers as they did with Ferrus/Fulgrim and Magnus/Leman Russ, but if you're NOT using the diorama then I think this pose looks very awkward and static. Not one of the better sculpts, I think.

[Avaris]

I don't think that I will be alone in saying that I'll be quite happy to wait for a week and then pick up the book/tiles/cards for peanuts on eBay after everyone else has done breaking down the sprues and selling the miniatures to collectors.
I want to play Kill Team: Arena, but I'm not prepared to put down that amount of money to then have yet more models that - as pretty as they are - I have no interest in building, painting or playing.


I don’t think there are any models in Arena that collectors will be after though? It’s just the scenery: the newly spoiled kill teams are seperate. Which is why it’s really overpriced for what it is, should be half as much IMO.

I mean, if anything is going to be a loss leader, this should be it: sell KT Arena ‘cheaply’, encourage purchase of models for the kill teams themselves. The current price point will just discourage take up.

[Requizen]

Ambush looks properly tricky. Is that the most "complex" Faction Ability we've seen? Mostly they're just like stat bonuses or extra usable abilities, this one completely changes the early phase of the game.


On Arena:

The price is steep, but I kind of understand why they put it there. From a sales standpoint, it's a box that will be a one-off purchase for players, there's no reason to buy multiple unless you reeeeaally want that specific terrain, which I can't see anyone caring about. And if you have a small, more casual community, you might also only see half sales since they specifically state two people can use one box to play the full experience. So for a box that gets you a full competitive experience focused on balance, a one-time buy in of $90 is pretty cheap.

Of course, that assumes there won't be expansions. Underworlds is only $90 if you buy the core box and one expansion of your choice, but everyone knows that if you want to keep up there's a few sets you really should purchase for the cards (I've bought everything because I love the game, but I understand the frustration with that system). I think it's safe to assume that if the game does well, there'll be card and probably board expansions. The frequency and cost of these will really be the deciding factor in whether the cost of the core game is worthwhile.

IMO if it's a one-time $90 for the core box and then once or twice per year after a $30 expansion for new missions etc, that's a pretty reasonable price for a full competitive ruleset with boards/minis/cards/etc that will last you for a long time. It's a bit steep for just a board game, especially considering you still need to buy other models, but I think if it's a one-off or once-per-year thing, then it's not that bad for people that already have Armies or Kill Teams. The price will drive away newcomers, but if you've been playing basic KT for a while and are seeking a more competitive style, or are new and are only coming in for a competitive ruleset, I don't think it'll prevent you from getting onboard.

As for the rules:

-Inclusion of rules on how to run a Tournament is great. Dunno how great they are, but it's a solid gesture for a company that's basically given tourney scenes the cold shoulder until the past year or so.
-Removing the Scouting phase is something I like. I feel like it adds some fun, but you can basically tell what most people would use and it got a bit repetitive.
-I quite like the way choosing your objectives works, and it can add some tactica to picking your Command Roster and what not.
-Better clarification of what "being in cover" means is only a good thing. Should have been there in the first place, but thanks, Arena.
-Requiring tokens is questionable, but I like it since it prevents "did that guy run? I can't remember" syndrome which I saw too many times at my store :smallsigh:
-I really like the corridor and door setup. It feels much more tactical than the regular kill team box, which often just felt like running in circles around one giant piece of terrain and huddling behind random scatter stuff. The halls feel much better designed for movement and line of fire tactics.
-Not sure about some of the random Killzone stuff, but it adds some variance to the game, at least.

Overall I want to play some games to see how it feels. I'll definitely be buying it (especially since I have a bunch of store credit to burn through), so I'll give more thoughts on it later.

[Voidhawk]

Who's ready to play Space Hulk on a 6'x4' Battlefield? (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/28/genestealer-cults-rules-preview-part-1/)

So, let me see if I've read this right:
1) You take 3 units with Cult Ambush (in a minimum Battalion with a couple of Pysker HQs cause why not).
2) You pay 1CP, and put down a line of 6 Ambush markers across the front of your DZ.
3) The opponent isn't allowed to come within 9" of the markers during their movement phase, making 1st turn charges almost impossible.
4) You pay 1CP, pick up all the markers and say "whoops, they were in Reserve all along".

[Blackhawk748]

GW prices for single models are still broken. But then thats old news.

More importantly, FW is finally releasing Sanguinius! And... he looks boring as hell. I dont know if its the generic Bretonian horse wings, the using a greatsword to pierce, not cut, the stiff pose, or what but he looks very underwhelming.

Sources:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/27/pre-order-preview-genestealer-cults/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/28/28th-jan-sanguinius-the-model-revealedfw-homepage-post-1/

I mean, at least it has an *ok* tip for thrusting. Its still obviously a cutter first and foremost, but its not a bad sword from what I can see so far. I agree with the rest though, he looks so...boring. Should looked like one of these:


https://gallery.yopriceville.com/var/resizes/Fantasy/Female_Warrior_Angel_of_Liberty_Wallpaper.jpg?m=13 65890400
http://pearlsofpromiseministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/warrior-angel.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/28/d9/bd/28d9bdd2b054b87d488e540b8b900a8c--angel-warrior-fantasy-characters.jpg

[LansXero]

On Arena:

The price is steep, but I kind of understand why they put it there. (...) if you've been playing basic KT for a while and are seeking a more competitive style (...)

Its like the NOVA Open rules being available oficially for free didnt register with as many people as I though. Also, there is already a corridors & doors expansion, its called Rogue Trader, which comes with actual minis. Finally, there are a ton of Zone Mortalis terrain sets floating out there, which are exactly that.

https://scontent.flim10-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49897066_1965182066933412_6460657486461403136_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent.flim10-1.fna&oh=4411e216dcf595d6266945c540cd0904&oe=5CC4AC18

From our Kill Team league: https://www.facebook.com/events/331005750820862/

[Destro_Yersul]

Sanguinius has got a silly head, too, thus continuing the trend.

[Forum Explorer]

So, Straya Day Weekend happened, so 140 players went down to a big shed in Canberra.

Cadian, Spearhead
(W) Creed
Master of Ordnance
Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars
Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars
Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars

Catachan, Brigade
Company Commander; Power Sword
Company Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
Straken

Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Power Sword

Platoon Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
Platoon Commander; Boltgun, Power Sword
Priest

Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon
Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon
Scout Sentinel; Plasma Cannon

Basilisk; Heavy Bolter
Manticore; Heavy Bolter
Manticore; Heavy Bolter

Krast
Knight Castellan

Sure thing.

Death Guard, Spearhead
(W) Daemon Prince with Wings; Sappurating Plate

Foetid Bloat-Drone; Spitters & Probe
Foetid Bloat-Drone; Spitters & Probe

Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought; Butcher Cannon Arrays
Plagueburst Crawler
Plagueburst Crawler

SHAD
Mortarion

SHAD
Magnus the Red

Daemons, Battalion
(W) Bloodmaster; Rage Incarnate, The Crimson Crown
Sloppity Bilepiper

Bloodletters (x28); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

Nurgle, Battalion
Poxbringer
Spoilpox Scrivener

Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

Fortification
Feculant Gnarlmaw

Christ on a plate. 200 models and change. Fair play, mate.

Thousand Sons, Supreme Command
Ahriman on Disc
(W) Daemon Prince with Wings
Sorcerer on Disc
Sorcerer on Disc

Chaos Daemons, Battalion
Daemon Prince with Wings; Axe, <Khorne> Pretty sure to get the <Titan>-killing Axe.
Poxbringer; Balesword

Bloodletters (x28); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x29); Champion
Pink Horrors (x25)

<Tzeentch>, Battalion
Changecaster
Sorcerer

Brimstone Horrors (x30)
Tzaangors (x29); Musician & Champion
Tzaangors (x21); Musician & Champion

It's lists like these that make me wish I played Chaos. I mean...Fluff is right out the window, 'cause who gives a ****? But each unit is different whilst still being effective at what it does.

T'au, Battalion
Shadowsun
Darkstrider
Ethereal

Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)

Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS (x2), ATS, Velocity Tracker Weird.

Shield Drones (x8)
Shield Drones (x8)
Shield Drones (x6)

Broadsides (x3), HYMP (x6), SMS (x6), ATS

T'au, Battalion
Fireblade
Coldstar; Burst Cannon, HOBC, Missile Pod, ATS

Strike Team (x12)
Strike Team (x12)
Strike Team (x5)

T'au, Outrider
Fireblade

Dahyek Grekh This is the dude from Blackstone Fortress.

Pathfinders (x9); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone
Pathfinders (x9); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone
Pathfinders (x8); x3 Ion Rifles, x5 Markerlights, Pulse Accelerator Drone

I'm so confused. But that's ITC for you.

Y'all ready for this...

Bloody Rose, Brigade
(W) Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Maul
Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Sword
Missionary

Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Arco-Flagellants (x6)
Celestians (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Power Maul
Celestians (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Power Maul
Dialogus

Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword
Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword
Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword

Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)
Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)
Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)

Ebon Chalice, Supreme Command
Celestine
Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Maul
Missionary

Imagifier Hahahahahaha. Index/2 doesn't invalidate Index/1.

Blood Angels, Supreme Command
Librarian Dreadnought
Captain with Jump Pack; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
Tycho the Lost wat

Cue people thinking that Sororitas Storm Bolters aren't even good. Then again, if you know the meta is Fearless hordes, what's better than 9 Point chicks with Storm Bolters?

Krast, Super-Heavies
Knight Gallant
(W) Knight Crusader; Avenger, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Missile Pod
Armiger Warglaive; Heavy Stubber

Cadia, Battalion[/U]
Company Commander
Tank Commander; Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolters (x3)

Infantry Squad; Mortar, Sniper Rifle
Infantry Squad; Mortar, Sniper Rifle
Infantry Squad; Sniper Rifle

Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars
Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars

Dark Angels, Air Wing
Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2)
Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2)
Dark Talon; Hurricane Bolters (x2) I'm not sure if CanCon was using new Bolter rules, but these would be even better if it was the case.

I don't see anything wrong here. I like this list a lot. A place for everything, and everything in its place.

Evil Sunz, Battalion
(W) Warboss; Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Attack Squig
Big Mek; Kustom Force Field

Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs
Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs
Slugga Boyz (x10); Tankbusta Bombs

Evil Sunz, Battalion
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
Weirdboy

Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa
Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa
Slugga Boyz (x28); Tankbusta Bombs (x2), Big Choppa

Bad Moons, Battalion
Warboss; Shoota, Big Choppa, Attack Squig
Big Mek; Kustom Force Field

Gretchin (x30)
Gretchin (x30)
Gretchin (x30)

Lootas (x15)
Lootas (x10)

inb4 Ork player; "I'm too good to use Grot Shields. #NotMyOrks."

Nurgle Daemons, Battalion
Poxbringer
Sloppity Bilepiper
Spoilpox Scrivener

Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command
Plaguebearers (x30); Full Command

Fortification
Feculant Gnarlmaw

Chaos Daemons, Supreme Command
Bloodmaster
(W) Fluxmaster
Fluxmaster

Summoning (~500)

A key important rule is that Summoning doesn't count as Reinforcements, which means you're allowed to do it on Turn 1. Boom.
As always, you do not have to tell your opponent what you have 'in Reserve', because fact is, you don't know (although you definitely do).


Bad Moons, Batallion
(W) Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun
Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)

Tankbustas (x15); Rokkits (x15), Bomb Squigs (x6)

Lootas (x15)

Evil Sunz, Battalion
Warboss; Kombi-Skorcha, Big Choppa
Weirdboy

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)

Meganobz (x10); Kustom Shootas (x10), Power Klaws (x10)
Meganobz (x10); Kustom Shootas (x10), Power Klaws (x10)

Blood Axes, Battalion
Big Mek; Shokk Attack Gun
Weirdboy

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)

Once again, 'real Ork players' have a cry about Gretchin being a competitive unit. What do you expect? They're 3 Points each and literally protect your other models. Whilst also being Objective Secured.

Harlequins, Vanguard
(W) Troupe Master; Power Sword, Player of the Twilight, The Storied Sword <Midnight Sorrow>

Solitaire; Cegorach's Rose <Midnight Sorrow>
Death Jester <Dreaming Shadow>
Death Jester <Dreaming Shadow>

Ulthwé, Battalion
Eldrad Ulthran
Warlock Skyrunner

Rangers (x5)
Rangers (x5)
Rangers (x10)

Prophets of Flesh, Battalion
Urien Rakarth
Haemonculus; Hexrifle, Venom Blade, Vexator Mask

Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade
Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade
Wracks (x5); Acothyst; Hexrifle, Venom Blade

Grotesques (x10)
Grotesques (x9)
Grotesques (x9)

It made Top 8 so I apparently don't know anything anymore.

T'au, Battalion
Fireblade
(W) Coldstar; Missile Pods (x3), ATS

Strike Team (x10)
Strike Team (x10)
Strike Team (x5)

Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS, ATS, Target Lock
Riptide; Heavy Bust Cannon, SMS, ATS, Target Lock

Shield Drones (x7)
Shield Drones (x6)
Shield Drones (x6)

Broadsides (x3); HYMP, SMS, ATS

T'au, Battalion
Darkstrider
Shadowsun

Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)
Strike Team (x5)

Sa'cea, Vanguard
Ethereal
Coldstar; Missile Pods (x3), ATS

Firesight Marksman
Firesight Marksman
Firesight Marksman

Seems legit. ITC is weird like that.

Valhalla, Battalion
(W) Company Commander
Company Commander

Conscripts (x30)
Infantry Squad; Mortar
Infantry Squad; Mortar

Wyvern; Heavy Bolter

Deathwatch, Battalion
Watch Master
Librarian with Jump Pack; Force Stave, Storm Bolter

Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
- Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
- Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
- Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
- Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
- Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
- Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
- Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
- Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

Veterans (x4); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Shields (x4)
- Watch Sergeant; Storm Bolter & Storm Shield
- Terminators (x3); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolters (x3), Power Fist, Power Swords (x2)
- Vanguard Veteran; Storm Shield
- Biker; Twin Boltgun, Teleport Homer

Krast
Crusader; Avenger Gatling, RFBC, Stormspear Rocket Pod

Maybe they are using the rules for Bolt weapons? If you know the meta is hordes, bring Storm Bolters...Deathwatch Storm Bolters. Use Combat Squads to have the Biker and Terminators run around with Relentless Storm Bolters, whilst your Veterans stay on points with the Watch Master. It's not rocket science.



Undefeated

Leviathan, Battalion
Neurothrope
(W) Malanthrope

Termagants (x27)
Termagants (x27)
Termagants (x26)
Termagants (x26)
Termagants (x25)
Termagants (x25)

Biovores (x2)

Kraken, Battalion
Old One Eye
Broodlord; Ymgarl Factor

Rippers (x3)
Rippers (x3)
Rippers (x3)

GSC, Supreme Command
Magus
Patriarch
Primus

Purestrains (x18); Rending Claws

Fearless hordes OP.
ITC is bat****. 'Nuff said.

Things I learned;
Exalted Court for House Krast so your shooty Knight re-rolls all its 1s. Then add Headsman's Mark to make it's Avenger Cannon 3 Damage.
The ITC Missions still make no sense to me because 'You can choose how you win.' The only thing you and your opponent need to do is hold 1 Objective and kill 1 unit per turn. Other than that you and your opponent aren't even playing the same game.

It really looks like I'm missing something with those Demon armies. Wouldn't they suffer horribly from morale? I mean, they aren't fearless and don't have a way to be fearless right?

To explain the Eldar list, is I think they are character hunting. Take Headhunter and Kingslayer, a ton of sniper rifles and other units that can target characters directly and go to town. All of these lists have a ton of characters after all, and most are pretty squishy. Then just use the Grotesques to tie units up and honestly do some pretty decent damage to the majority of these lists, while just capping a couple of objectives. I'm not surprised they didn't take first, but it's an interesting strategy. I wonder if they faced the Tyranid player, I feel they had the best chance of beating them. Though I also wonder why they didn't take Alaric.

I'm surprised the Knight list didn't do better. It looks like it would rip apart a couple of the other top lists. But maybe it was just a coincidence in matchmaking. After all, I think the 200 model army would wreck the Knight army.



I remember you describing the Iron Hands' list a few days ago and being confused as to what he was hoping to achieve with such a non-meta choice. Did that ever become apparent, or was it a radical experiment that was doomed to failure before it got off the ground?

He was just operating off of luck and my meta being soft. It seems he never got matched up with someone even relatively competitive during the season, or he was really lucky in those games. (Or someone being competitive. If his opponents continuously saw he was playing Iron Hands/Grey Knights, and then brought a weaker list to have a good game he could see the success that saw him to the finals, where the kid gloves came off, and he immediately lost.)

[Brookshw]

GW prices for single models are still broken. But then thats old news.


Seriously. $55 for some bikes? Sheesh. $35 for one bike w/ a sniper rifle? Bwah?

Let's see, $11/biker, maaaaybe a buck for a sniper rifle bit, EASY conversion work. I think I know what I'd do.


He can't be targeted, and even if he does get targeted, he's got 9 Wounds and Regen. He can't even be one-shotted by an Oathbreaker.
When you've got 100+ models in front of you, not being targeted is a big deal. I mean, sure, but if he's not doing something useful then who cares?


Why do you even need Synapse?
A single Synapse model covers a 24" circle, not including Dominion or Synaptic Lynchpin.

If one model is within range, the entire unit is. With ~30 model units, you can cover the entire board, and still remain within range to a single Synapse model. Yup, that's how synapse works, checks out.


The only reason you need more Synapse is if either
a) You're running Hive Tyrants and/or Swarmlord, who can be targeted, and therefore die on Turn 1 (or just straight up aren't on the board because they're in Reserve), or
b) You plan on moving the Synapse model, and thus, the Synapse circle changes position.

If you have a Synapse model that can't be targeted, and doesn't change position? Who cares how much Synapse you don't have. You have all the Synapse you need.
Remember how you just pointed out OOE isn't going to be taken out by an Oathbreaker? Guess what can? The other synapse.


He can't be targeted.
Or contribute much. Remember, other HQs are cheaper, synapse, psychic (mostly) they can do stuff to contribute while hiding.



He's an anti-Turn 1 Charge unit. If you Charge the Termagants, the Swarm opens up and your unit gets crushed. if if a small squad hitting you, sure? 30 orks? 20 genestealers? You kill...5? Not really crushing it. What's he doing after T1, distraction carnifex?



The most important takeaway that I can impart is two-fold...
1. Tournament players don't play their Factions, or the game, the way a normal person would, and
2. ITC players definitely don't play the same way normal people do (and that's a big problem, IMO).
I get your point, who's bringing 200ish models to a game? Not many normal people. But even within the scope of ITC the opportunity cost on OOE over, say, another neurothrope and some more biovores? A squad of genestealers (hiding in nodes no less). Again, results speak for themselves though.

Were you there by any chance, and if so, what did OOE actually do? I think we're largely theory talking and knowledge of how it actually played out would be good.

[Cheesegear]

I mean, sure, but if he's not doing something useful then who cares?

He is doing something. Not dying. 'Not dying' counts as 'doing something' because it's ITC.


What's he doing after T1, distraction carnifex?

Being an untargetable model, I can't see how he'd be a distraction.
A model that's immune to shooting attacks would be really good at holding an Objective.


Were you there by any chance, and if so, what did OOE actually do?

Here's Round 6 (of 8) on Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/370575236), against the army that eventually came 2nd (rounds go for 2 hours, 20 mins)
Look at the way he uses his Synapse - it's not what a normal person does.

[Brookshw]

Here's Round 6 (of 8) on Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/370575236), against the army that eventually came 2nd (rounds go for 2 hours, 20 mins)
Look at the way he uses his Synapse - it's not what a normal person does.

Cool, I'll check it out.

[Avaris]

Hi all,

I’m trying to work out a ‘full points’ build for my Sisters to act as a guide to the final models I need to convert up in the current build. The idea is to have a 2000 point list I can then draw from for other games, including adapting it into a more MSU build if I want a brigade or multiple battalions instead of the below. Not aiming for WAAC competitive, just a hopefully solid build which can give good casual games. Any thoughts on the below? I’ve included some comments on why certain units are there. You’ll note I haven’t exactly built around Acts of Faith: found them fairly underwhelming so far!

Battalion Detachment

Celestine 160
5 Seraphim, 4 Inferno Pistols, plasma pistol, power sword - 92
(Celestine and a few friends who will stay with the main ‘fortress’ initially, than sally out to strike high value targets)

Canoness, Power Maul, Storm Bolter - 51
Warlord trait: Indomitable Belief. Relic: Book of St Lucius
Holy Trinity Squad: 15 Sisters, 2 Flamers, Combi-melta, Simulacrum Imperialis - 15*9+2*6+15+10= 172
Support 1: 5 Sisters, 2 Storm Bolters, Combi-flamer - 5*9+2*2+8=57
Support 2: 5 Sisters, 2 Storm Bolters, Combi-flamer - 5*9+2*2+8=57
(‘Fortress’ with 5+ Invulnerable save, 4+ with Celestine around, with large squad available to use Holy Trinity when the enemy get close)


Canoness, Power Maul, Combi-Plasma - 60
6 Retributors, 4 Heavy Bolters, combi-plasma, Simulacrum Imperialis - 6*9+4*10+11+10= 115
(Long range fire support with canoness for re-rolls of 1s)

Penitent Engine - 100
Penitent Engine - 100

9 Repentia - 9*15 = 135
Mistress of Repentance - 35
Rhino, 2 Storm Bolters - 73+4=77

Outrider Detachment

5 Dominions, 4 Flamers, combi-flamer- 5*10+4*6+8=82
Immolator, Immolation flamer - 98

Canoness, power sword, inferno pistol - 56
5 Dominions, 4 melta guns, combi-melta - 5*10+4*14+15=121
Immolator, Immolation flamer - 98

Canoness, Storm Bolter, Power Maul - 51
5 Dominions, 5 Storm Bolters - 60
Immolator, Immolation flamer - 98

3 Immolator mounted squads to reinforce the lines and go hunting where necessary, with canoness support where re-rolls are useful. If facing a psyker heavy army one of the Canonesses will deploy with the fortress and take the Brazier

10 Seraphim, 4 Hand Flamers - 122
5
(For the deep strike hand flamer stratagem)


1997
Command points: 3+5+1 = 9
Faith points: 3+(76/10)=10

[Destro_Yersul]

I have also played around a bit, and come up with a list for that army blog thing I want to do. Pretty sure this is what I'm ultimately going with, which means the minis on this list are the ones I'll prioritise finishing. I'll still do the other stuff, of course. Thoughts on the list are welcome.

Unless they're 'buy more Tzaangors.'

Thousand Sons (2006pts, 12CP)

(W) Ahriman on Disc
Daemon Prince (Wings, Sword) Helm of the Third Eye
Daemon Prince (Wings, Axe) Dark Matter Crystal
Daemon Prince (Wings, Talons)

Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Tzaangors x15 (Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn)
Tzaangors x15 (Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn)

Tzaangor Shaman
Helbrute (Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher)

Tzaangor Enlightened x9 (greatbows)

Predator (Autocannon, two Lascannons)

Heldrake (Baleflamer)

If I run up against anyone super uptight about 6 points over, either they can add something small or I can drop a single Tzaangor. I don't really expect to, though.

[Forum Explorer]

I have also played around a bit, and come up with a list for that army blog thing I want to do. Pretty sure this is what I'm ultimately going with, which means the minis on this list are the ones I'll prioritise finishing. I'll still do the other stuff, of course. Thoughts on the list are welcome.

Unless they're 'buy more Tzaangors.'

Thousand Sons (2006pts, 12CP)

(W) Ahriman on Disc
Daemon Prince (Wings, Sword) Helm of the Third Eye
Daemon Prince (Wings, Axe) Dark Matter Crystal
Daemon Prince (Wings, Talons)

Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Rubrics x5
Tzaangors x15 (Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn)
Tzaangors x15 (Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn)

Tzaangor Shaman
Helbrute (Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher)

Tzaangor Enlightened x9 (greatbows)

Predator (Autocannon, two Lascannons)

Heldrake (Baleflamer)

If I run up against anyone super uptight about 6 points over, either they can add something small or I can drop a single Tzaangor. I don't really expect to, though.

6 points is high enough that you should expect people to call you out on it. It's, well it's basically a Tzaangor.

I don't like the Predator. They are too fragile for how many points they are. (Unless they dropped like 40 points or so). I'd prefer a Mutalith, mostly cause I think they are cool, or a Forgefiend/Maulerfiend.

[Brookshw]

Here's Round 6 (of 8) on Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/370575236), against the army that eventually came 2nd (rounds go for 2 hours, 20 mins) Okay, watched it.


He is doing something. Not dying. 'Not dying' counts as 'doing something' because it's ITC. Sure, but if you're looking for the best ROI, Not dying while contributing directly at the same times seems the preferable option, no? So, was there another alternative that would have been cheaper and "not died" by virtue of being 9 or less wounds character? Sure. Do those options have the same toughness and number of wounds? No.


Being an untargetable model, I can't see how he'd be a distraction. Looks like that's exactly what he did for most of the game. Charged down one side, made his opponent pull back. Eventually used him and the gaunts to punch through the lines and then go punch the wyvern, and tied up a lot of attention for the nearby defenders in the process. So he was used (in this game at least) to apply pressure and distraction. Defenders couldn't ignore him or he'd get to their back line and had to deal with him instead of going after the objective the neurothrope was on. Didn't pay attention to the secondaries so not sure how that may have played a part.


A model that's immune to shooting attacks would be really good at holding an Objective. Eh, very general statement. Applies just as much to a neurothrope as OOE.


Look at the way he uses his Synapse - it's not what a normal person does. That's just daisy chaining, there's nothing special about that. The number of bodies on the table, that's what a normal person wouldn't do.

[Destro_Yersul]

6 points is high enough that you should expect people to call you out on it. It's, well it's basically a Tzaangor.

I don't like the Predator. They are too fragile for how many points they are. (Unless they dropped like 40 points or so). I'd prefer a Mutalith, mostly cause I think they are cool, or a Forgefiend/Maulerfiend.

Yeah, but it's just games with friends, and like I said dropping a single Tzaangor is an easy fix.

The predator I admit to not being super sold on. I do really like the Forgefiend mini, so I could certainly replace it with one of those, This also solves the points, since a Forgefiend with triple Ectoplasma cannons is still only 160. Gives me room for 2 extra Tzaangors to come in at exactly 2000. However, I don't yet have a Forgefiend, so that'll have to wait for a bit.

[Cheesegear]

Sure, but if you're looking for the best ROI, Not dying while contributing directly at the same times seems the preferable option, no?

You can't use a Hive Tyrant, Tervigon or Swarmlord. They just die immediately.
That leaves a Broodlord - he already had two.
Tyranid Prime? ...Well, guy used to run 9 Warriors and a Prime. He took 'em out.


Do those options have the same toughness and number of wounds? No.

The only other option is the Neurothrope.


Looks like that's exactly what he did for most of the game. Charged down one side, made his opponent pull back.

Because if his opponent didn't do that, he would've lost the game even faster?
How is that a distraction?


Eventually used him and the gaunts to punch through the lines and then go punch the wyvern, and tied up a lot of attention for the nearby defenders in the process.

Can't find the distraction.


Defenders couldn't ignore him or he'd get to their back line and had to deal with him instead of going after the objective the neurothrope was on.

So basically he applied massive tactical advantage that if the opponent didn't deal with him, he would've lost the game even faster?
Once again, don't quite see where there was ever a point - except in the first turn - where I would've classed O1E as a 'distraction' from more important things.
O1E was the important thing, precisely because he could never be targeted.

The only other option in the entire Codex that could've done what O1E did, was a Tyranid Prime...And the dude took that out since last major tournament...For O1E.


That's just daisy chaining, there's nothing special about that.

Except for tournament play, I've never seen a Tyranid player chain a unit from one end of the board to the other, to tie up a shooty unit using 4 models out of a ~30 model unit.
Except for tournament play, I've never seen anyone wrap models. Wrapping models just isn't something that normal people do.

There is something special about what he did. That's why he went undefeated for 8 rounds. That's why the #1 player-in-Australia's only loss was to him.


In any case, I hope you enjoyed two Australians wearing singlets (because they're literally in a shed, in ~30 degree heat), with vulgarity and swearing, because they're not FLG. I know they tried to keep the vulgarity down. But...They're Australian - even our own MPs swear at each other while in Parliament.

[Brookshw]

That leaves a Broodlord - he already had two. No he didn't, he had 1, a Neuro, and a Malanthrope. Or were you counting the Patriarch?


Because if his opponent didn't do that, he would've lost the game even faster?
How is that a distraction? We're they really forced to deal with him though? They had the bodies to deny him the objective if they wanted to stay stationary or park the wyvern on it. Alternatively, just walk around him to go after the Neuro and force the opponent to decide whether to fall back or to defend it or keep pushing forward. (Not necessarily the easiest thing with the body count). Considering that a sole melee carnifex isn't actually all that killy (5 models/turn) the threat isn't really that much. That's why he's a distraction, threat perception exceeds actual danger and blinds you to opportunities. If you don't consider that a distraction then I guess we're just going to be in disagreement on that one.



The only other option in the entire Codex that could've done what O1E did, was a Tyranid Prime...And the dude took that out since last major tournament...For O1E. Sure, and I'm trying to figure out why he valued OOE so much compared to the alternatives. But again, results speak for themselves. At any rate I'll consider throwing OOE into a few games and re-evaluating. In my experience to date, he's okay but not something I'm going to write home about.


Except for tournament play, I've never seen a Tyranid player chain a unit from one end of the board to the other, to tie up a shooty unit using 4 models out of a ~30 model unit.
Except for tournament play, I've never seen anyone wrap models. Wrapping models just isn't something that normal people do. Well, if you say you've never seen it then I believe you've never seen it.


In any case, I hope you enjoyed two Australians wearing singlets (because they're literally in a shed, in ~30 degree heat), with vulgarity and swearing, because they're not FLG. I know they tried to keep the vulgarity down. But...They're Australian - even our own MPs swear at each other while in Parliament. That was pretty good, yeah.

[Requizen]

Its like the NOVA Open rules being available oficially for free didnt register with as many people as I though. Also, there is already a corridors & doors expansion, its called Rogue Trader, which comes with actual minis. Finally, there are a ton of Zone Mortalis terrain sets floating out there, which are exactly that.

https://scontent.flim10-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49897066_1965182066933412_6460657486461403136_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent.flim10-1.fna&oh=4411e216dcf595d6266945c540cd0904&oe=5CC4AC18

From our Kill Team league: https://www.facebook.com/events/331005750820862/


Rogue Trader doesn't have a competitive ruleset and the boards clearly aren't designed for a balanced game. Zone Mortalis boards are awesome, I agree... but they also cost a lot even for this hobby and, depending on how nice you want it, can take up a lot of space and be a pain to haul around. I'm more than ok shelling out a bit for a ruleset designed for pick-up-and-play competition that has boards/terrain that are nice to look at while also being easy to take from A to B.

Of course, I'd like it to be cheaper, but again I'm just saying that I understand why they decided the pricepoint even if it is higher than what I was expecting.

[Cheesegear]

No he didn't, he had 1, a Neuro, and a Malanthrope. Or were you counting the Patriarch?

Broodlords and Patriarchs. Same thing.


We're they really forced to deal with him though? They had the bodies to deny him the objective if they wanted to stay stationary or park the wyvern on it.

Except that the opponent did park the Wyvern on an Objective.


Sure, and I'm trying to figure out why he valued OOE so much compared to the alternatives.

I genuinely don't think O1E is valued that highly. But, you watched the game. Let's go through this again.

1. Broodlords. Yep. Dude had two. They did fine.
2. In tournament play, Hive Tyrants, The Swarmlord and Tervigons are non-choices. Tyranid players don't like hearing it, because those are centerpiece models. But facts are facts. If you're a Character with 10 or more Wounds, you're in for a bad time. That's why Tank Commanders rule the game...Right up until you start playing competitively and they die on Turn 1. Tank Commanders, really, are no better than regular Leman Russes...But don't tell Guard players that Pask sucks - they don't like it.
3. More Neurothropes. Why? For Synapse? You saw how the dude played. That's how most tournament Tyranids play. How much Synapse do you really need? ...Not much. Especially if you're running a Malanthrope.
4. ...That leaves Warrior Primes. Honestly, what's the point?

The problem is that you seem to think that O1E is good. He's not.
What he is...Is one of the best out of a bunch of bad choices. Tyranids don't really have good HQs, so being the one of the better ones isn't a high bar to clear.

Your only defence is "Why not take another Neurothrope?" ...Because you don't need to. You don't need more than the minimum Synapse. You don't need more than a few Psychic Powers, once you cast the two Powers that matter, your Psychic phase is over. You're not Thousand Sons. What you do need, is something that hits slightly harder than Termagants - but you can't use Toxicrenes or Carnifexes, because they can be targeted down. Me, personally? I'd go with a third Broodlord. However, I also see the value in not being lucky-Oathbreaker'd on Turn 1 in a bad match-up.

If you've got a Character with 7-9 Wounds in your book...Take them. O1E is one those Characters. Especially in ITC. This is where Kill 1/Kill More comes into play. This is why Venom spam isn't that popular in ITC. Sure, it can work. But in a bad match up, those Venoms are a whole bunch of free kills. Again, 'not dying' is 'doing something'...In the ITC. It doesn't matter than Termagants are only T3 and total garbage. There's 30 of them, and they're Fearless. If you want the Kill Point, you have to unload 30 failed saves into them.

This is why the ITC slouches towards horde armies. Killing stuff is the easiest way to earn points (they bring this up several times in the 'cast, often with negative connotations). Hordes - especially Fearless hordes - aren't easy to kill, thus, denying your opponent Kills, denying your opponent potential points. Not dying, is, doing something. If it was an Eternal War or Maelstrom tournament? You'd get different army archetypes. The other option is to spam MSU. Your opponent can kill one, three or six more units than you do...Doesn't matter - 'Kill more' is still only worth 1 Point, regardless of how hard you smash that button.

But, back to O1E. He doesn't hit the hardest. But he's almost impossible to kill unless you let him die.

Contrast this to an actual useless unit - the Rippers. Guy literally didn't even know what to do with them, so he just stuck them in the corners of the board. Where they stayed for the whole game.

That said, the vs. Deathwatch game was a bad game to showcase that, as the Deathwatch player had very little options with which to target Characters. The main reason I liked that game was it was because it ended up being the game where the eventual #1 and #2 of the tournament played. It also showcases really well how horde armies can literally run circles around their opponents and what exactly it is, that makes horde armies so strong.


Well, if you say you've never seen it then I believe you've never seen it.

It's just that in casual games, wrapping and screening units out of the game is pretty Bad Form, and unFun to play against. So most people don't do it.


That was pretty good, yeah.

Some people don't like it.

[Brookshw]

Broodlords and Patriarchs. Same thing. Fair enough.



Except that the opponent did park the Wyvern on an Objective. And then ran it away until OOE chased it down and punched.

My comments in blue.

I genuinely don't think O1E is valued that highly. But, you watched the game. Let's go through this again.

1. Broodlords. Yep. Dude had two. They did fine. - Agreed!
2. In tournament play, Hive Tyrants, The Swarmlord and Tervigons are non-choices. Tyranid players don't like hearing it, because those are centerpiece models. But facts are facts. If you're a Character with 10 or more Wounds, you're in for a bad time. That's why Tank Commanders rule the game...Right up until you start playing competitively and they die on Turn 1. Tank Commanders, really, are no better than regular Leman Russes...But don't tell Guard players that Pask sucks - they don't like it. - Why do you keep bringing these up? No one's said they're good.
3. More Neurothropes. Why? For Synapse? You saw how the dude played. That's how most tournament Tyranids play. How much Synapse do you really need? ...Not much. Especially if you're running a Malanthrope.Also because they're the cheapest HQ and would free up about ~130 pts while actually doing something.
4. ...That leaves Warrior Primes. Honestly, what's the point? - No idea, removing one makes perfect sense to me


The problem is that you seem to think that O1E is good. He's not. I....what? Where the heck did you get that? Are we fundamentally not having the same conversation? He's a point sink when there are cheaper HQ options available that would both be able to do things and free up points for additional units.


Your only defence is "Why not take another Neurothrope?" Except that's not it. Yes, more synapse is good because synapse can be killed so redundancy is good, especially against armies that are more adept at sniping. BUT, and this maybe the critical bit we're disconnecting on, freeing up the points to invest in something that will grant a better ROI is very much a worthwhile endeavor. In the other page my example wasn't "take a Neurothrope, it was "take a Neurothrope and biovore" (techincally 2 biovores)


Me, personally? I'd go with a third Broodlord. However, I also see the value in not being lucky-Oathbreaker'd on Turn 1 in a bad match-up. Sure, no argument here, Broodlords are good and came down in points.


But, back to O1E. He doesn't hit the hardest. But he's almost impossible to kill unless you let him die. Okay, so to avoid giving up secondaries. That's the crux of your position? If so, okay, I get ya and it makes more sense.

[9mm]

2. In tournament play, Hive Tyrants, The Swarmlord and Tervigons are non-choices. Tyranid players don't like hearing it, because those are centerpiece models. But facts are facts. If you're a Character with 10 or more Wounds, you're in for a bad time. That's why Tank Commanders rule the game...Right up until you start playing competitively and they die on Turn 1. Tank Commanders, really, are no better than regular Leman Russes...But don't tell Guard players that Pask sucks - they don't like it.


I play Guard and have been saying Pask sucks since the codex dropped.

[LansXero]

Rogue Trader doesn't have a competitive ruleset and the boards clearly aren't designed for a balanced game. Zone Mortalis boards are awesome, I agree... but they also cost a lot even for this hobby and, depending on how nice you want it, can take up a lot of space and be a pain to haul around. I'm more than ok shelling out a bit for a ruleset designed for pick-up-and-play competition that has boards/terrain that are nice to look at while also being easy to take from A to B.

Of course, I'd like it to be cheaper, but again I'm just saying that I understand why they decided the pricepoint even if it is higher than what I was expecting.

So, Necromunda?
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FarYkP7-SiY/WnR8acX2R6I/AAAAAAAAPS8/UP9RSKbu7DgTkZaB23s7hj_FHhAigMfogCLcBGAs/s1600/Necromunda%2BUnderhive%2B01.jpg

Also, I think most people are OK shelling nothing at all for a ruleset designed for tournaments, that was already live tested and that makes many of the changes of the previous versions (no verticalness, no scouting phase):
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Nova18_CompetPlay.pdf

Arena feels redundant and poorly thought out at the price they are asking for it. Oh, and just to double down on 'doors and corridors' with a 'tileset built with competitive play in mind' for cheaper, there are things like terrain crate:

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-ua4dd/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/27634/55665/mgss305__20092.1513985846.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on

and heroclix maps, which are made with 1 vs 1 and tournament play in mind, while also being aproximately the right size for kill team:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71yb%2Br6m0%2BL._SX466_.jpg

GW are good at certain things and for those things it makes sense to pay their premium prices. Tilesets and 'doors and corridors' are not amongst those things.

[Cheesegear]

I....what? Where the heck did you get that? Are we fundamentally not having the same conversation?

He's clearly a much, much better player than I am with an even greater understanding of the ITC format than I have. He wouldn't make **** army construction lists by mistake. Thanks to the magic of the internet, and a centralised tournament structure, I also know what other lists he would've been up against. Then, even better, unlike other tournaments where I have to guess why they succeeded, there's footage of him playing against the eventual #2 ranked player. So I can also guess that he played similarly against other players. However, since we saw his Deployment, we know that he leaves multiple gaps in his 'Gant Carpet and places his Characters last, based on his opponent. We know that 'horse shoes' are things he does all the time for board control until Turn 2-3. We know that he knows how to not only screen his own units, but he also knows how to wrap his opponents' units without losing Synapse.

Overall, we know he's legit.
(The only thing we can't infer from the footage, is what he does when his opponent can target Characters).

So to answer your question, I don't think we are having the same conversation.

Taking O1E was a choice he made.
It's not a question of why didn't he take anything else.
Since we know he's not a bad player; It's a question of why did he take O1E?

1. What are his other choices? What does O1E do, that they don't do? Considering the rest of his list...Where does O1E fit in?
2. What are the WinCons (i.e; How does ITC work)? How does that play into Question 1?
3. Footage.

There's only one acceptable reason to take a model that you don't actually want to; You don't have any other models to choose from.
Unfortunately, this is a major tournament, and no-one on the top tables is taking models they don't want to because they can't afford new ones.

[Forum Explorer]

He's clearly a much, much better player than I am with an even greater understanding of the ITC format than I have. He wouldn't make **** army construction lists by mistake. Thanks to the magic of the internet, and a centralised tournament structure, I also know what other lists he would've been up against. Then, even better, unlike other tournaments where I have to guess why they succeeded, there's footage of him playing against the eventual #2 ranked player. So I can also guess that he played similarly against other players. However, since we saw his Deployment, we know that he leaves multiple gaps in his 'Gant Carpet and places his Characters last, based on his opponent. We know that 'horse shoes' are things he does all the time for board control until Turn 2-3. We know that he knows how to not only screen his own units, but he also knows how to wrap his opponents' units without losing Synapse.

Overall, we know he's legit.
(The only thing we can't infer from the footage, is what he does when his opponent can target Characters).

So to answer your question, I don't think we are having the same conversation.

Taking O1E was a choice he made.
It's not a question of why didn't he take anything else.
Since we know he's not a bad player; It's a question of why did he take O1E?

1. What are his other choices? What does O1E do, that they don't do? Considering the rest of his list...Where does O1E fit in?
2. What are the WinCons (i.e; How does ITC work)? How does that play into Question 1?
3. Footage.

There's only one acceptable reason to take a model that you don't actually want to; You don't have any other models to choose from.
Unfortunately, this is a major tournament, and no-one on the top tables is taking models they don't want to because they can't afford new ones.

O1E can kill a Knight when he charges. Maybe that's why he took him. As some anti-Knight firepower. It's not like he has any other source of anti-Knight in his list.

[Wardog]

He's the Archangel Michael, to Horus' Lucifer. I know that image anywhere.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Guido_Reni_031.jpg

https://www.crystal-life.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/p-49299-archangel_st-1._mi_4b4ae2503b31f_1.jpg

...But, that said. Doesn't make it a good model, though.

That second Lucifer just looks bored.

[Brookshw]

O1E can kill a Knight when he charges. Maybe that's why he took him. As some anti-Knight firepower. It's not like he has any other source of anti-Knight in his list.

Could be. One of my original guesses was anti-tank. In the video he never went to engage the knight w/ OOE though.

[Cheesegear]

Could be. One of my original guesses was anti-tank. In the video he never went to engage the knight w/ OOE though.

My guess is that's because it wasn't a Gallant. It was a hard-shooty Knight, in which case all's you've got to do is surround your Characters with a ton of 'Gants, and since it wasn't a Character, it couldn't Heroically Intervene into combat, and Fall Back in his next turn. He would have to Charge in his turn, and allow his opponent to Fall Back into a wrap pattern and the whole thing starts over. So all's you have to do is wrap and/or screen it, and it's out of the game...Which is exactly what happened.

Had it been a Gallant, it would've done a first turn Charge against the horse shoe Gants. 'Gants would've Fallen Back, '6s wound anything time!' unloaded a ****-ton of dice, and then O1E would've Charged.

Like I said, O1E would've been a counter-Turn 1 model.

[The Robot Goat]

Hey, got a quick question for y'all. I'm running a Catachan list and I was considering picking up the Imperial Guard Start Collecting, but that has Cadian models, and not Catachan ones. Would it violate What You See Is What You Get to run both Cadian and Catachan models as infantry, seeing as their stat-line is identical? And even if it didn't, would it just be too confusing?

The models aren't painted in Cadian or Catachan colors, they're all painted in orange prison jumpsuits, if that changes anything. I obviously want to save money, but I don't want to pull a fast one on whoever I play against. This is outside of tournament play, for the record.

[JNAProductions]

Hey, got a quick question for y'all. I'm running a Catachan list and I was considering picking up the Imperial Guard Start Collecting, but that has Cadian models, and not Catachan ones. Would it violate What You See Is What You Get to run both Cadian and Catachan models as infantry, seeing as their stat-line is identical? And even if it didn't, would it just be too confusing?

The models aren't painted in Cadian or Catachan colors, they're all painted in orange prison jumpsuits, if that changes anything. I obviously want to save money, but I don't want to pull a fast one on whoever I play against. This is outside of tournament play, for the record.

If you say "These Cadian models are using Catachan rules, and these other, identically painted Cadian models are Vostroyans," you're a jerk.

If you say "All my guardsmen are Catachan," then I do not care, and likely your opponents won't either.

[Cheesegear]

Hey, got a quick question for y'all. I'm running a Catachan list and I was considering picking up the Imperial Guard Start Collecting, but that has Cadian models, and not Catachan ones. Would it violate What You See Is What You Get to run both Cadian and Catachan models as infantry, seeing as their stat-line is identical? And even if it didn't, would it just be too confusing?

In most tournament formats, different Detachments must be easily differentiated. However you choose to do that, is up to you. And what constitutes as 'easily' apparently varies from player to player and TO to TO. In a casual setting, while that rule wouldn't be enforced, it would still be polite.
...Some tournaments go a step further, and say that units with 20 or more models must also be identifiably different.

So, you could say...
These green Cadians, are Catachans. But the orange Cadians, are Cadians. Same models. Different colours. Exactly the same way that Space Marine players would do it to represent different Chapters.

However, other players just paint the shoulder rims. The grey rims are Blood Angels, because the 8th/Grey Company is the Assault Company. The red rims are Blood Angels, because red = Blood Angels. This is important 'cause the only way you can win best painted is by having a cohesive looking army, and having an army with 3 major different colour schemes across multiple Detachments might be 100% fluff compliant, but it doesn't look good.

However,
These green Cadians, are Catachans, and these other green Cadians, are Cadians... What?

If you say...
Everything I own is Catachans. Doesn't matter what it looks like. Doesn't matter how it's painted. It's all Catachans.
There can't be any confusion, because it's all the same.

[The Robot Goat]

Thanks for the replies, I'll probably go ahead with the Start Collecting, seeing as they're all going to be painted the same and my whole army uses the Catachan rules.

[LansXero]

GW of the past: "Agents of Vect is too toxic, specially in the drukhari codex. We feel 4CP would make its use more infrequent and thus only for clutch plays and special cases"

GW of the now: "Lets give GSC Agents of Vect. 3 CP is fine, because they also have a model with the Culexus Assassin abiity, so it will be even more OP. We have to sell all these tooth & claw overstocks somehow, we'll just FAQ it later"

[LeSwordfish]

I mean, you know what GW's lead times are. Of course they're going to have to FAQ it. Or they could FAQ it as soon as its released like the Space Wolves and - oh no, everyone complained their asses off about that too.

I think the cult stuff looks cool! Getting down to a 7" charge from reserve is pretty nasty for a big squad of purestrains, but so is making them 4++ save, and getting everything a better save against low-rend. I might go with Rusted Cog for the paint scheme and bonus save, but Four-Armed-Emperor looks like the one to beat.

[LansXero]

I mean, you know what GW's lead times are. Of course they're going to have to FAQ it. Or they could FAQ it as soon as its released like the Space Wolves and - oh no, everyone complained their asses off about that too.

I've seen novels go from "final draft" to "on shelves now!" faster than the assumed lead time from GW. But even at 4 CPs, why would you give a codex that already makes strats more expensive agents of vect?

[Blackhawk748]

I mean, you know what GW's lead times are. Of course they're going to have to FAQ it. Or they could FAQ it as soon as its released like the Space Wolves and - oh no, everyone complained their asses off about that too.

I think the cult stuff looks cool! Getting down to a 7" charge from reserve is pretty nasty for a big squad of purestrains, but so is making them 4++ save, and getting everything a better save against low-rend. I might go with Rusted Cog for the paint scheme and bonus save, but Four-Armed-Emperor looks like the one to beat.

If they were going to do it, they could do it right now. Post up the FAQ one and tell everyone that the one in the Codex was designed before they realized how good a Strat like that was and so it was too late to change it.

Yes, people will be annoyed but less annoyed than teasing us with it and then taking it away almost immediately.

[LeSwordfish]

And people would whine their hearts out about that too. Some people in this hobby are gamers, or painters, or collectors: some are whiners.

[LansXero]

And people would whine their hearts out about that too. Some people in this hobby are gamers, or painters, or collectors: some are whiners.

Yes, but these people wouldnt have paid money for a model under rules that the marketing team is highlighting to then have said rules be changed on the spot. Thats a huge difference

[LeSwordfish]

I don't disagree this specific situation isn't silly, i'm just confident that there would be just as much of a fuss if it were the space wolves again, and life is too short.

[Blackhawk748]

I don't disagree this specific situation isn't silly, i'm just confident that there would be just as much of a fuss if it were the space wolves again, and life is too short.

I don't think there would be as much of a fuss. If that is what they had done I certainly wouldn't have cared, but to do what they are doing annoys me, because I know they have to nerf it. I'm just calling it as laziness.

[LudDavenport]

Brood brothers continues to look trash. *sigh* just make them all chatchen equivalent or something.

[Requizen]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/02/01/1st-feb-kill-team-arena-coming-to-a-store-near-yougw-homepage-post-3/

Not surprising. I liked the idea of the original Kill Team "campaign" kits and rewards, but this is much more reasonable for the average store. For a growing/niche game (And yes while it's a GW mainline game, it's still pretty small in comparison to AoS/40k, at least at in our area), it's easier to get people in for a day than to set up a league. Especially when people like me only get a day or two per week to play and it's already filled with our "main game".

On that note, what's a good Kill Team to start? I've got my Necrons but sold my Guard (was selling the army as a lot, goodbye Scions!), so I'm looking for something a bit different. How are just straight up Marines, especially with a Primaris focus? Or Tyranids?

[Cheesegear]

On that note, what's a good Kill Team to start?

Any of the Chaos Teams. Provided that you like Cultists, Tzaangors or Poxwalkers.


How are just straight up Marines, especially with a Primaris focus?

Bad.
Primaris heavy? Even worse.


Or Tyranids?

If you like spending money, they're really good.


At the end of the day, Kill Team is a poorly balanced game just like its parent game, so cheaper is always better.

[Requizen]

Any of the Chaos Teams. Provided that you like Cultists, Tzaangors or Poxwalkers.
I do like Tzaangors, actually. Though it's a bit sad there's no two-hand weapon option so I can use K'charik from Underworlds.



Bad.
Primaris heavy? Even worse.
Pity, I'd like to have an excuse to have some Sci-fi Stormcast Space Marines sitting around.

Come to think of it, I think I have some Space Wolf models from Stormclaw sitting around, could always try it out I guess.


If you like spending money, they're really good.


At the end of the day, Kill Team is a poorly balanced game just like its parent game, so cheaper is always better.

I'm not opposed. I like my hobby and don't mind shelling out a bit for a fun painting and playing project. Granted it's not as terrifying a prospect here in the states, of course.

[Cheesegear]

I'm not opposed. I like my hobby and don't mind shelling out a bit for a fun painting and playing project.

Mostly it depends on how hard you actually want to go into Kill Team, and how hard you've read up on how an unlimited Roster should really work per the Rulebook.

If you say "Unlimited Roster means Unlimited Roster." then Teams like Orks and Tyranids suddenly get really good. However, you're pretty much required to buy everything in the army list in order to make that happen...Deathwatch are extremely OP in their ability to tailor.

If you put caps on it; Say, your Roster can only be 200 Points and/or 20 models (like what NOVA did), then, of course being able to take the maximum 20 models or the most points-efficient models (Plasma only explodes on an unmodified 1) becomes the only concern...And some Teams don't have point-efficient models that also let them hold Objectives.

As 40K would do later, and Sigmar has done for a while...Tabling your opponent doesn't mean you win. Winning the game requires playing the Mission. In which case more models on the board can help you do that. Teams where the minimum model is 10 Points each, and 11 for Specialists/Leaders, is a bad time.


What Kill Team definitely isn't, but it's marketed that way is an RPG.

[9mm]

Bad.
Primaris heavy? Even worse.


in kill team? Hard disagree. 4-5 intercessors with 1-2 reivers are deceptively strong.

[Brookshw]

Like I said, O1E would've been a counter-Turn 1 model.

If it's "big" things, sure, I agreed. I suppose that's a swmi-objective thing we could discuss, what 1st turn charges he is more effective against.

Probably more relevant than either our views is his blog (https://thehivemindqld.blogspot.com/2019/01/?m=1), I'll be watching his next few posts to see how/why he decided on what he did (other than 200 fearless models that is)

[Cheesegear]

in kill team? Hard disagree. 4-5 intercessors with 1-2 reivers are deceptively strong.

Against what? Reivers belong in every Space Marine Roster because they're the only models that can almost barely Melee. Sure, it's an option. But compared to other Melee options in the game (Harlequins, Grey Knights, Tyranid Warriors, etc.) Reivers aren't even good.
I genuniely struggle to find value in Intercessors, compared to Tac Marines with Plasma Guns, or models with Heavy Bolters.

1 Damage weapons just aren't that good. That's not how the game is played. Against a full 15+ model Team? Cool. ~50% of your unsaved wounds don't do anything because Flesh Wounds still allow models to hold Objectives and/or move around the board.

If you - and your opponents - are treating Kill Team as "I bought one box of models and I'm done." Then Intercessors will do fine. Where would the casual Guard player even get 8 Plasma Guns from, anyway? If you're treating it like a competitive game, where the aim of the game is to win at it (as is the aim of most games), players will quickly find ways to tailor against you. With Primaris models being 15+ Points each, and un-customisable, you don't have a whole lot of margin for error.

[9mm]

If you - and your opponents - are treating Kill Team as "I bought one box of models and I'm done." Then Intercessors will do fine. Where would the casual Guard player even get 8 Plasma Guns from, anyway? If you're treating it like a competitive game, where the aim of the game is to win at it (as is the aim of most games), players will quickly find ways to tailor against you. With Primaris models being 15+ Points each, and un-customisable, you don't have a whole lot of margin for error.

I am 10-0 against 8 plasma gun guard, I was full primaris for 8 of those games, but please tell me more about how casual my meta is.

[JNAProductions]

Thoughts on the Genestealer Cult stuff?

[Cheesegear]

I am 10-0 against 8 plasma gun guard, I was full primaris for 8 of those games, but please tell me more about how casual my meta is.

...Not at all. That's amazing.
I just don't know how. Are you just getting into Melee on Turn 1 somehow to prevent them from shooting? I mean, a Veteran Reiver Sergeant on a 32mm base can tie up anywhere between 1 and 3 models...

I'm not saying you couldn't win a few games against Plasma Guard. But 10-0 is bizarre. :smallconfused:
At some point, the dude should've realised that 8 Plasma Guns weren't working (for some reason), and tried to see what happens using 20 models on the board.


Thoughts on the Genestealer Cult stuff?

Power Creep is real.
Rules sell models.

Posted from phone.

[Turalisj]

Thoughts on the Genestealer Cult stuff?

You'll see them in the top 5 of every tournament until the next codex.

[Brookshw]

Thoughts on the Genestealer Cult stuff?

Looks to be a very strong initial showing, but let's see after it's errata'd.

[Mystic Muse]

Any advice on Cultist mini alternatives for my Thousand Sons army that look cool?

I know Tzaangors are better, but god that price.

[Avaris]

Any advice on Cultist mini alternatives for my Thousand Sons army that look cool?

I know Tzaangors are better, but god that price.

Depending on aesthetic you want, I feel most of the Necromunda gangs could be a good base. Especially Cawdor if you want hooded and sinister, or Delaque if you want more refined.

[Professor Gnoll]

Any advice on Cultist mini alternatives for my Thousand Sons army that look cool?

I know Tzaangors are better, but god that price.
Kairic Acolytes, (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Kairic-Acolytes) perhaps? They might need some conversion with more 40k-appropriate weaponry, but they're almost half the price of Tzaangors and look pretty cool.

[Mystic Muse]

Kairic Acolytes, (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Kairic-Acolytes) perhaps? They might need some conversion with more 40k-appropriate weaponry, but they're almost half the price of Tzaangors and look pretty cool.

That's kinda what I figured the answer was, just thought I'd ask.

[Turalisj]

Any advice on Cultist mini alternatives for my Thousand Sons army that look cool?

I know Tzaangors are better, but god that price.

Cultist bodies, skitarii ranger heads?

[Cheesegear]

Cultist bodies, skitarii ranger heads?

Cultists are snap-fit. You can't convert them without significant work.
That's why people ask for alternative models, not how to convert them.

[HoldTheLine31]

I would recommend the Frostgrave plastic cultist box. It's 20 hooded multipart cultist models for under 20 pounds. However those are fantsy setting models, so only mele weapons in the box. Still decent customizable models for relatively cheap mele cultists.

[Blackhawk748]

I would recommend the Frostgrave plastic cultist box. It's 20 hooded multipart cultist models for under 20 pounds. However those are fantsy setting models, so only mele weapons in the box. Still decent customizable models for relatively cheap mele cultists.

Find some random gun sprue for sale on Ebay?

[Destro_Yersul]

Or just pick up a couple handfuls of these (http://anvilindustry.co.uk/Regiments/Weapons/assault-carbines).

[HoldTheLine31]

I've bought stuff from Anvil and it's great, used their shotgun kit for my IG vets and their heads/torso/equipment ranges are very useful, but it's not that cheap. You'd need 4 gun sets to convert the 20 cultists, puting you behinde another 12 pounds, it's basically 60% the way to another cultist box.

[Brookshw]

Thoughts on the Genestealer Cult stuff?

I take my earlier opinion back in part. Purestrains not getting a subfaction is silly, borderline stupid. The cult version of the AM vehicles not getting a subfaction either is also silly but not to the same extent. A lot of "meh" psychic powers. Aberrants & metamorphs will be good. Pretty sure I can't pack purestrains into chimeras is fine but disappointing, I chucked at the idea of them manning the lasgun arrays. A lot of this release feels geared to minimize the value of existing models and push the new characters. Not sure neophytes should be 5ppm.

[Cheesegear]

I take my earlier opinion back in part. Purestrains not getting a subfaction is silly, borderline stupid.

Only if they break Cults - which they almost definitely wont.


A lot of "meh" psychic powers.

No-one runs GSC for Psychic Powers.


Pretty sure I can't pack purestrains into chimeras is fine but disappointing

Good.
Purestrains should be Ambushing. Not riding around in Chimeras.


A lot of this release feels geared to minimize the value of existing models and push the new characters.

No ****. Welcome to 'New GW'.


Not sure neophytes should be 5ppm.

What should they be, then? 6?
If Cultists are 5, with Tide of Traitors being a thing, how much is a Guardsman that can Ambush? :smallconfused:

[Brookshw]

Only if they break Cults - which they almost definitely wont.
If I understand you correct (and I'm not sure I do) then from the leaks and reviews I'm seeing it doesn't look like it matters and purestrains are straight up excluded.



No-one runs GSC for Psychic Powers. As memory serves Magus were the number 1 HQ choice in 2018 LVO for GSC despite cheaper alternatives, and I seem to recall someone from FLG specifically bringing them for a Magus (maybe I'm thinking of SoCal). Mind Control is good, especially if you hit a knight or big shooty thing with it.




Good.
Purestrains should be Ambushing. Not riding around in Chimeras. Rules be damned I thought it was funny.



What should they be, then? 6?
If Cultists are 5, with Tide of Traitors being a thing, how much is a Guardsman that can Ambush? :smallconfused: (1) One dumb decision doesn't erase another, it just means you have 2 dumb decisions. See also: whataboutism. (2) They aren't guardsmen, e.g., no orders, unlike faction traits, application of faction traits to available units are vastly different.

[Destro_Yersul]

I've bought stuff from Anvil and it's great, used their shotgun kit for my IG vets and their heads/torso/equipment ranges are very useful, but it's not that cheap. You'd need 4 gun sets to convert the 20 cultists, puting you behinde another 12 pounds, it's basically 60% the way to another cultist box.

You could theoretically get away with 3 sets by coming up with extra bitz from somewhere to make up the two. That puts it at 29 pounds, which is more or less on par with Kairic Acolytes. In any case, it's probably one of the cheaper options if you want to give them all guns.

[Cheesegear]

If I understand you correct (and I'm not sure I do) then from the leaks and reviews I'm seeing it doesn't look like it matters and purestrains are straight up excluded.

Fabius Bile doesn't break <Legion>.
Anrakyr doesn't break <Dynasty>.
Celestine doesn't break <Order>.
MTs don't break <Regiment>.
Be'lakor explicitly does break <Allegiance>. Except who cares? Loci bonuses aren't even good.

If Genetstealers don't break <Cult>, then who cares if they don't have it? If anything, Purestrains aren't part of a Cult, they're part of a Hive Fleet. They shouldn't have the Cult Keyword.
Now that I've thought about it, I agree.


As memory serves Magus were the number 1 HQ choice in 2018 LVO for GSC despite cheaper alternatives

Yeah. Deny the Witch is pretty useful in all armies.


Mind Control is good, especially if you hit a knight or big shooty thing with it.

Will that be in the Codex, then? If it is, then there's no problem.


(1) One dumb decision doesn't erase another, it just means you have 2 dumb decisions. See also: whataboutism.

That's irrelavent, and doesn't answer my question.
How many points should they be?


(2) They aren't guardsmen, e.g., no orders, unlike faction traits, application of faction traits to available units are vastly different.

Infantry Squads don't have Orders. <Officers>, do. Orders have nothing to do with Infantry Squads, and everything to do with Company Commanders. Can you have Infantry Squads without <Officers>? ...Yes. If anything, it should be <Officers> that cost more (and they absolutely should), not regular Infantry or Heavy Weapon Teams (however HWTs should cost more for different reasons). Should Bullgryns cost more because Priests give +1 Attack? Or should Priests just cost more in the first place?
Should Hellblasters cost more because Captains hand out re-roll 1s to hit? Re-rolling 1s to hit has nothing to do with Hellblasters. :smallconfused:

Everyone gets Faction Traits. If GW started including Faction Traits into points costs, everything would go wrong. We've already seen Craftworlds players cry because why did non-Ynnari Dark Reapers go up in points? You can't apply Strike From the Shadows across the board because it affects units differently, and, as yet, we haven't seen "If a Vanguard Veteran squad has the <Raven Guard> Keyword, increase by 5ppm."

If a Blood Angels Captain doesn't have <Death Company>, should his points cost still be raised?

"If an Infantry Squad has the <Catachan> Keyword, increase its cost to 5ppm."
"If a <Leman Russ> has the <Cadia> Keyword, increase its cost..."

Just...No.

[Saambell]

For those who use Battlescribe to plan army lists, how do you report flawed battlescribe army data? Im trying to use it to build a tyranids list, and its data doesnt match up with what my codex says is possible. Its trying to tell me I can only have one Monsterous Bio Cannon on my Hive Tyrant, when my codex clearly says I can have 2. I checked the Errata, and it says nothing about the hive tyrant, so unless it was in a Chapter Approved, which I dont think changes Weapon Options in its updates, this is Battlescribe giving false data.

[Cheesegear]

Its trying to tell me I can only have one Monsterous Bio Cannon on my Hive Tyrant, when my codex clearly says I can have 2.

Are you talking about Stranglethorn Cannons and Heavy Venom Cannons?
Take a closer look at Page 83. It has nothing to do with the Hive Tyrant's rules. Looking at the Hive Tyrant's datasheet wont explain why you can't have 2 Cannons.

[Saambell]

Hmm, and theres me failing reading comprehension again. And it doesnt help I have already glued together a Hive Tyrant with two Heavy Venom Cannons, having failed to notice that footnote. Well, at least it was the one from a Start Collecting box, so I sort of got it for free? But yeah, thats a waste of a model right there, cause I overlooked a footnote, and now am down a giant expensive model. I have had horrible luck trying to remove already glued parts, as when I tried to remove rending claws from my warriors. So I guess that model is basically garbage until they add that option.

[Cheesegear]

Hmm, and theres me failing reading comprehension again.

No worries. Happens to us all.


And it doesnt help I have already glued together a Hive Tyrant with two Heavy Venom Cannons, having failed to notice that footnote.

...[Poop].

[LeSwordfish]

If I understand you correct (and I'm not sure I do) then from the leaks and reviews I'm seeing it doesn't look like it matters and purestrains are straight up excluded..

Ooh, can you link these please?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I mean, a Hive Tyrant is large enough you could probably have a bit more luck with the scalpel... But yeah that suuuuucks.

[Meatgrinder]

After a disastrous loss last Saturday, I'm realizing that my Primaris battalion needs some fast-moving beatsticks to apply pressure where my "gunline" can't. A supreme command of Custodes jetbike captains is still good, right? Is there anything else that does the same thing better or for less points (and the same $ price :smallbiggrin:)?

[Cheesegear]

After a disastrous loss last Saturday, I'm realizing that my Primaris battalion needs some fast-moving beatsticks to apply pressure where my "gunline" can't. A supreme command of Custodes jetbike captains is still good, right? Is there anything else that does the same thing better or for less points (and the same $ price :smallbiggrin:)?

Blood Angels Captains.

[Turalisj]

Really, any captain with a jetpack/powerfist/storm shield combo works fine. It's just that blood angels deathcompany captains are the best at it right now.

[Brookshw]

Ooh, can you link these please?
Codex review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FReFkWVy6Zw
Batrep: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmXshIdUANM


Fabius Bile doesn't break <Legion>.
If Genetstealers don't break <Cult>, then who cares if they don't have it? If anything, Purestrains aren't part of a Cult, they're part of a Hive Fleet. They shouldn't have the Cult Keyword.
Now that I've thought about it, I agree. So you think they should have gotten a Hive Fleet adaptation instead?



Will that be in the Codex, then? If it is, then there's no problem. Sure. And the new powers are still pretty "meh".


That's irrelavent, and doesn't answer my question.
How many points should they be? Don't bring up comparisons if you don't want me to reply to them :smallconfused:
Probably keep them at 4 points honestly.




Infantry Squads don't have Orders. <Officers>, do. Orders have nothing to do with Infantry Squads, and everything to do with Company Commanders. snip Gonna stop you right there. Yes, the abilities of units to receive bonuses are factored in. Are gaunts reasonably priced at 4 ppm? Why? They aren't natively immune to moral, have worse saves than guardsmen and weapons are arguably less effective. Throw in "oh, and there immune to moral", now it's a different unit entirely. AM are designed for Guardsmen to use orders, for how many editions now? It's not like a stratagem even, they're available as long as you have officers and use up non-finite resources. Arguing that guardsmen are just a stat block for comparison is ridiculous.

So are orders the equivalent of ambush? Isn't that the real question? If you think ambush is more valuable than orders in general than orders then that's a reasonable stance and would justify a 1ppm increase. I wouldn't 't agree ambush is more valuable than orders, but I could respect that position. (yes, I'm ignoring unquestioning loyalty here).

In regards to the other matter of points reflecting armies, this is the problem with allies and you know it. No one's suggesting a convoluted multivariable point calculation system to build your army. But if an army has some underpriced and some overpriced units, and is somehow prevented from spamming the underpriced, then it's a non-issue and it generally balances out. When you can cherry pick the underpriced units to use with allies and avoid the downsides of a particular army, then that does become an issue. Change the context and the problems start.

[Cheesegear]

So you think they should have gotten a Hive Fleet adaptation instead?

I think that Purestrains, as they are, are already one of the most powerful units in the book.
They don't need any more bonuses.

I don't think that they should have Hive Fleet bonuses. But if GW says that they don't have Cult bonuses, I'm cool with that, too. Because Purestrains aren't part of the Cult.


Gonna stop you right there. Yes, the abilities of units to receive bonuses are factored in.

No. They aren't.


Are gaunts reasonably priced at 4 ppm? Why? They aren't natively immune to moral, have worse saves than guardsmen and weapons are arguably less effective. Throw in "oh, and there immune to moral", now it's a different unit entirely.

Yes. And you can see that Synapse doesn't cause 'Gants and Gaunts to increase in price. You can see that neither <Kraken> or The Swarmlord causes Genestealers to increase in price.


AM are designed for Guardsmen to use orders, for how many editions now?

No they aren't. Officers are designed to use Orders.

But my point is, that Orders are not factored into their points cost. That's why they cost 4 Points, not 5, or even 6. The cost of the 'Orders' are factored into the model that gives them, not into the unit that receives them. Because how much is a unit of Guardsmen that doesn't get Ordered?

Ambush is an ability that Neophytes have. Independent of a unit giving it to them. That's why they're an extra point.
That's why Comissars increased in points, while Conscripts, didn't. Then also Conscripts went up, because 30-models are strong no matter what they're made out of.


So are orders the equivalent of ambush?

GW has decided that a Company Commander is 30 Points*, and gives two Orders per turn. So, 15 Points an Order. So, a Guard squad, that 'includes Orders' is worth 55 Points. Squads don't have Orders, unless someone gives them one. You have to take a seperate model, that costs more points - that's the points cost. This is why Dark Angels are better than normal Marines. They just get re-roll 1s without having to spend ~80 Points for a Captain. Re-rolling 1s isn't a native ability that Space Marines have. It's given to them, for the cost of ~80 Points, or roughly 25 Points per unit. It's not cheap. Hence, Dark Angels are good. Those ~80 Points aren't spent on something else to compensate...Dark Angel models aren't all 1 or 2 points higher that their counterparts...It's straight up, 80 free'd up points you can spend on something else.

However, points and Orders being zero-sum, it's entirely possible that you'll have a number of Guard units - especially in a Brigade, or a Battalion where the 'other' HQ is a Psyker - not receiving Orders, because there aren't that many to go 'round. Are Guard units not receiving Orders still worth more points? ...No.

Ambush, costs an extra point per model. So, 15 Points translates into 3 extra models per unit. But, you have Ambush all the time. Whether you choose to use it is up to you. But you always have that choice available to you.

Meanwhile if there's 3 Squads to a Company Commander, one of those units is just going to look at their Commander like a bunch of stunned mullets, unless there's an investiture of more resources. Again, Guard have to pay extra points for Orders. They don't just get them. If one of your Guard HQs is a Primaris Psyker for Deny the Witch (really common), you have less Orders. That is, you're not paying for Orders you don't have. That is, forcing models to pay for Orders you can't give them, would be extremely stupid.**

Orders are not inherent to Guard units. Orders are inherant to <Officers> only. That's why Officers cost points. If Orders were free, then everyone would be running around with Primaris Psykers as their HQs. Orders are not free - you must take Officers. Other units abilities (e.g; Voice of Command) are not factored into a different, separate unit's points cost. That's why the other unit costs more or less points (again; for an in-Codex example, look at Comissars and Conscripts).***

This is why Guard units don't pay for Orders, whilst Neophytes do have to pay for Ambush - they just get it.

What if you don't want to use Ambush? Then sure, get mad that you have to pay for ability you're not even using. That's fine. But, fact is, even if you don't use Chaos Cultists with Tide of Traitors, or Veterans of the Long War, or even Cacophony...With Abaddon. With Ignore Wounds (5+). With 30-model units. Cultists are still going to be 5 Points whether you use their abilities or not.
GW didn't so much as 'nerf Cultists', as they did force everyone who was using Cultists wrong, to use them right, or pay extra points for no reason...So you may as well use Ambush all the time - you're paying for it, after all.

If you still don't agree with anything I've said...Then Guard are just broken. While that's not untrue per se. I think Orders is the wrong hill to die on.
Other than that, I hope you're writing to GW about how you feel, because I can't help you beyond this point.


* Remember, Company Commanders are a known issue within the game. 30 Points is too cheap for what they do (then again, rules sell models and GW is totally on board with Guard models in every Imperium army - they said so themselves). On the other hand, Infantry Squads are not a problem, and they can stay fine as-is at 4 Points a model. Company Commanders are the problem - not the units. Similarly, Heavy Weapon Squads do just fine without a babysitter - they need a points increase, but not because they can take Orders.
** See non-Ynnari Dark Reapers getting nerfed for no reason and how mad that made everyone.
*** See Razorbacks and Stormravens, and Guilliman get nerfed, and how mad that made everyone. Coinciding with the above, Razorbacks and Stormravens are still nerfed, even if Guilliman isn't in the army.

[Requizen]

Didn't Tzaangors originally come with Chainswords and Pistols in a regular box? Like, before Tzeentch hit for AoS and when they first came out alongside Magnus and 1k Sons, wasn't there a 40k box for them? I see the upgrade pack online and I feel like I'm remembering something from an alternate timeline.

[LeSwordfish]

I remember that, but I think it was just the standard box with a few upgrades in.

[Drasius]

Didn't Tzaangors originally come with Chainswords and Pistols in a regular box? Like, before Tzeentch hit for AoS and when they first came out alongside Magnus and 1k Sons, wasn't there a 40k box for them? I see the upgrade pack online and I feel like I'm remembering something from an alternate timeline.

They still do. I bought two boxes a month or so ago and there's a small sprue of chainsword and pistol options in the box.

Maybe my store just had the old box, 'cause the ones I bought were the white AoS boxes, but since you'd have to be a bit tilted in the head to give 'em guns for pretty much any Thousand Sons force I can think of, it really didn't matter which one I grabbed, so the extra sprue was just a happy coincidence.

[Ornithologist]

My experience with most arm connections, particulary in Tyranids, is that if you are willing to sacrifice the arm being removed, you can pull them off and leave the base figure in good shape.

On a slightly related note, I am currently working on a 20-man acolyte GSC hand flamer squad for deep-strike/ambush schenanigans. Average of 80 hits, average of 13 wounds ( vs Toughness 6 or more). Plan is to run them as a big old distraction carnifex, and for lols.

[Saambell]

I think my issue with removing Tyranid arms is that the socket joint is filled with dried glue, and I really dont want to use super glue. Plastic glue ends up being worthless with that as a base, so the new part will refuse to stick. It being a socket joint means the knife cant at all get in there to remove it. Other lines with the flat contact point means I can easily scrape the old glue off.

[Requizen]

Think I'm going to pick up a couple Kill Teams this week. Very excited for Arena! Looking at some Tyranids (actually have some Hormagaunts) and either Marines or AdMech, but all I have right now is my Necrons, here's my current roster:


Deathmark (Leader) - 15
Deathmark (Sniper) - 15
Deathmark (Comms) - 15
Deathmark - 15
Flayed One (Leader) - 10
Flayed One (Combat) - 10
Flayed One (Zealot) - 10
Flayed One (Veteran) - 10
Flayed One - 10
Flayed One - 10
Flayed One - 10
Immortal (Leader, Gauss) - 16
Immortal (Comms, Tesla) - 16
Immortal (Veteran, Gauss) - 16
Immortal (Gauss) - 16
Immortal (Gauss) - 16
Immortal (Tesla) - 16
Warrior - 12
Warrior - 12
Warrior - 12

I did see that the Blackstone Fortress models got rules for Kill Team. Most of the units look pretty terrible (the Legionaries in particular are just... CSM with basic stuff), but there's some reasonable stuff there. Flamers on cheap bodies are of course, always good, especially with Arena's small hallways. Rogue Psykers are great because MWs are great. Negavolts and Beastmen aren't great but I can see uses for them. A roster just based on what models are in the box:

Rogue Psyker (Leader) - 20
Rogue Psyker - 20
Traitor Sergeant (Leader) - 5
Traitor Guardsman Gunner (Scout, Flamer) - 8
Traitor Guardsman Gunner (Flamer) - 8
Traitor Guardsman (Lasgun) - 5
Traitor Guardsman (Lasgun) - 5
Traitor Guardsman (Lasgun) - 5
Traitor Guardsman (Lasgun) - 5
Traitor Guardsman (Zealot, Laspistol & Weapon) - 5
Traitor Guardsman (Combat, Laspistol & Weapon) - 5
Traitor Guardsman (Laspistol & Weapon) - 5
Negavolt Cultist (Combat) - 9
Negavolt Cultist (Zealot) - 9
Negavolt Cultist - 9
Negavolt Cultist - 9
Chaos Beastman (Zealot) - 7
Chaos Beastman - 7
Chaos Beastman - 7
Chaos Beastman - 7

Leader Psyker, two Flamers, and two (specialist) Cultists comes out to 54, which I would imagine would be the general core, and then decide what to bring from there. It's not great, but I think there's enough ok stuff there to get a game or two in to try something different.

[Brookshw]

I think my issue with removing Tyranid arms is that the socket joint is filled with dried glue, and I really dont want to use super glue. Plastic glue ends up being worthless with that as a base, so the new part will refuse to stick. It being a socket joint means the knife cant at all get in there to remove it. Other lines with the flat contact point means I can easily scrape the old glue off.

Are you adverse to magnetizing? If not, toss a tiny ball of green stuff in there and a magnet (I'd say 4mm, but 3 might be okay), you wont need to worry about the glue (in fact, put more glue to help hold the magnet in place. Trim the ball joint flat at an angle reflective of the magnet, attach magnet to remainder of ball joint. The loss of width on the ball will prevent the joint sticking out awkwardly. Attach magnet to limb (check polarity, in fact, try to keep polarity the same across all bugs you magnetize). Use some more green stuff around the side of the ball joint magnet to help keep in place (and glue).

Or lightly drill the joint hole and use green stuff as gap filler (careful limbs are supported while it dries so you don't get weird sagging issues)

Or simple green or some other product that can deal with super glue.

[LansXero]

Going to miss the dice from the OP kit. Of all the things to keep, why keep the objective markers? literally nobody uses those, while you can never have too many dice.

[Occasional Sage]

Hmm, and theres me failing reading comprehension again. And it doesnt help I have already glued together a Hive Tyrant with two Heavy Venom Cannons, having failed to notice that footnote. Well, at least it was the one from a Start Collecting box, so I sort of got it for free? But yeah, thats a waste of a model right there, cause I overlooked a footnote, and now am down a giant expensive model. I have had horrible luck trying to remove already glued parts, as when I tried to remove rending claws from my warriors. So I guess that model is basically garbage until they add that option.


What sort of glue did you use? Many types have a debonding agent that you could, with patience, work into the joint to release the arms without damage to either part.



Are you adverse to magnetizing? If not, toss a tiny ball of green stuff in there and a magnet (I'd say 4mm, but 3 might be okay), you wont need to worry about the glue (in fact, put more glue to help hold the magnet in place. Trim the ball joint flat at an angle reflective of the magnet, attach magnet to remainder of ball joint. The loss of width on the ball will prevent the joint sticking out awkwardly. Attach magnet to limb (check polarity, in fact, try to keep polarity the same across all bugs you magnetize). Use some more green stuff around the side of the ball joint magnet to help keep in place (and glue).

Or lightly drill the joint hole and use green stuff as gap filler (careful limbs are supported while it dries so you don't get weird sagging issues)

Or simple green or some other product that can deal with super glue.

An added benefit of magnetizing is that you can reconfigure your Tyrant between games, as long as you've similarly magnetized and painted other arm options. I've only done this with tanks in 3e (when I last played), but it's wildly useful if your table assumes WYSIWYG.

MY OWN QUESTION:
What assumptions should I make when calculating models' efficiency? It's easy enough to determine average hits per point (((number of attacks)x(successful roll results/six))/points for the model) and wounds per point follow from the Damage (I know wounds don't carry over), but then there's differing S to factor in and I'm not sure how to account for enemy T or Sav (which changes the value of my AP).

Mostly, I want to be able to steer my son away from wildly suboptimal choices. He'll be 95% of my games and as long as he's having fun I can fudge things, but I want our games to be reasonable, y'know?

[Tome]

MY OWN QUESTION:
What assumptions should I make when calculating models' efficiency? It's easy enough to determine average hits per point (((number of attacks)x(successful roll results/six))/points for the model) and wounds per point follow from the Damage (I know wounds don't carry over), but then there's differing S to factor in and I'm not sure how to account for enemy T or Sav (which changes the value of my AP).

Mostly, I want to be able to steer my son away from wildly suboptimal choices. He'll be 95% of my games and as long as he's having fun I can fudge things, but I want our games to be reasonable, y'know?

I tend to use points per dead marine or guardsman, and then points per wound dealt to tank and knights.

[Forum Explorer]

Gonna stop you right there. Yes, the abilities of units to receive bonuses are factored in. Are gaunts reasonably priced at 4 ppm? Why? They aren't natively immune to moral, have worse saves than guardsmen and weapons are arguably less effective. Throw in "oh, and there immune to moral", now it's a different unit entirely. AM are designed for Guardsmen to use orders, for how many editions now? It's not like a stratagem even, they're available as long as you have officers and use up non-finite resources. Arguing that guardsmen are just a stat block for comparison is ridiculous.

Tyranids is a bad example, because they used to pay through the nose for Synapse. Like, their only good HQ choice was the Hive Tyrant because the Broodlord, Tervigon, and Tyranid Prime were all a ridiculous amount of points. Then the Neurothrope dropped.



** See non-Ynnari Dark Reapers getting nerfed for no reason and how mad that made everyone.


Normal Dark Reapers were nerf worthy as well. They are a pretty insanely good unit being able to target pretty much any kind of unit.

Ynnari just need a massive nerf of their own. My favorite is actually making them a proper unit, so their units are designed to work with Soulburst, and are thus balanced appropriately. But failing that, I'd deny them all Aspect Warrior squads.

[Drasius]

MY OWN QUESTION:
What assumptions should I make when calculating models' efficiency? It's easy enough to determine average hits per point (((number of attacks)x(successful roll results/six))/points for the model) and wounds per point follow from the Damage (I know wounds don't carry over), but then there's differing S to factor in and I'm not sure how to account for enemy T or Sav (which changes the value of my AP).

Mostly, I want to be able to steer my son away from wildly suboptimal choices. He'll be 95% of my games and as long as he's having fun I can fudge things, but I want our games to be reasonable, y'know?

The usual way is to look at common stalines you'll face. Marine EQuivalent is T4 3+, Guard EQuivalent is T3 5+, most main battle tanks and monsters are T7 3+ with stuff like IK and Russes at T8 3+. These are pretty common targets and 8th means that the math-hammer is easier than ever since there's no difference between a T5 and T7 target against a Str 4 weapon.

Take the same sort of calcs for hits per point you're already doing and apply another set for wounds and saves for each type of target.

So, for a MEQ bolter vs a GEQ, it's 2 attacks * 4/6 to hit = 1.33 hits * 4/6 to wound = 0.89 wounds * 4/6 failed saves = 0.59 dead GEQ /13 points per MEQ bolter = 0.046 dead GEQ per point Generally speaking, most people perfer points per unsaved wound (so, divide number of points over wounds inflicted), as it's easier to visualise taking ~22 points of MEQ to kill a GEQ than it is to imagine one twentieth of a guardsman killed per point of marines.

For a (BS3+) missile launcher vs a knight, it's 1 attack * 4/6 to hit = .67 * 3/6 to wound = .33 * 4/6 failed saves = .22 * 3.5 average damage = 0.78 damage. Then divide that by however many points your missile launcher model is OR, times the number of wounds by the number of missile launchers in a squad and then divide by the price of the entire squad if comparing unit to unit instead of comparing weapon vs weapon.

Edit: Should probably mention, if you can use excel at even a basic level, this is actually pretty quick and easy to make lots of different comparisons, but sitting there with a calculator can make it rather tedious. Even then, it's not going to tell the whole story, 'cause range and movement profiles are a factor, as is enemy army composition, since it's no good being the king of anti-hoarde if your meta is full of treadheads.

[Cheesegear]

MY OWN QUESTION:
What assumptions should I make when calculating models' efficiency?

...None? Take a look at everything in the meta (or your meta) and group everything into groups of things that need killing.


but then there's differing S to factor in and I'm not sure how to account for enemy T or Sav (which changes the value of my AP).

Column
F = T3
G = T4
H = T5
I = T6
J = T7
K = T8

L = 6+
M = 5+
N = 4+
O = 3+
P = 2+

Q-through-Y = 9 combinations of Toughness and Saves you feel you need to worry about in the meta*. Just worrying about GEq and MEq is dead. The game is so much bigger than two armies. You have to deal with Objective Secured Custode Jetbikes, now! Not to mention altering the formula whenever something commonly has -1 to hit (e.g; Venoms) or taking into account how D3 Damage weapons work against models with 2 Wounds (i.e; Frustratingly. You can use the Average of '2' Damage - because obviously - however in the real world that's not actually how it works, math-hammer isn't perfect), and how multi-Damage weapons don't do **** against 1-wound models. Also, some of the more problematic models in the game have Invulnerables or Ignore Wounds (Daemons, Knights, etc.). Once your have your string of columns with the formulas, you can just click and drag - don't forget your '$' marks. Then just copy-paste in your 'special' strings on the weapons that need it.

=$C3/($D3*$E3*F3*M3)
Where C3 = $B$1 + B3.

Another option is to divide by points cost (that's C3, for me), and that will give you how many models you need of that type, in order to deal 1 Damage to your target.
However I've found that to be less useful, and you can pretty much do it by eye anyway.
If a Space Marine with a Boltgun is 58.8 Points per Damage, against opposing Marines (that's not good, BTW, see below)...It takes ~5 Marines to kill an opposing single Marine using Boltguns. Gross...
That is, Boltguns are pretty bad...Unless you're killing T3 models, in which case you don't need be 13 Points a model to kill Guardsmen and Aeldari.

Z = Basically the 'special' column that lets you know how to copy-paste. '1 Damage & MW on 6+ to wound' wont be the same formula as '1 Damage'.
6+ to wound equals +1 Mortal Wound, isn't the same as 6+ to wound equals Mortal Wounds instead of normal damage, etc.
...Just...Mark your columns.

* I picked 9 because that's the amount of columns needed to reach 'Z'. You could quite easily do less if your meta is really shallow (mine isn't). You could also do every combination of saves if you really felt like it. However I can't think of many T3 / 2+ Save models I need to worry about, especially after Celestine's been nerfed.

Commonly, in the math-hammer community...
<25 Points per Damage against your intended target, is good (however you should still take into account how it works against everything, because some weapons really are good against everything [S5/6, AP-2])
26<55 Points per Damage is 'not hot garbage'
200+ Points per Damage, it's time to pack up and go home.

Many of your better Spreadsheet programs will offer colour gradient formatting. It's immensely helpful.

(Also remembering that math-hammer in Age of Sigmar is basically playing the game on easy mode.)

EDIT: Doing Math-hammer ad hoc is for chumps. Always use Spreadsheets to get a better picture... That said, that is my old government job talking.

[Brookshw]

Yes. And you can see that Synapse doesn't cause 'Gants and Gaunts to increase in price. I can see Gaunts are reasonably differentiated and weaker than Guardsmen but priced the same.


But, fact is, even if you don't use Chaos Cultists with Tide of Traitors, or Veterans of the Long War, or even Cacophony...With Abaddon. With Ignore Wounds (5+). With 30-model units. Cultists are still going to be 5 Points whether you use their abilities or not. You were doing so well right up to the point where you acknowledged that non-datasheet abilities & rules should impact the cost of models. The genestealers infiltrated your position, didn't they :smalltongue:



While that's not untrue per se. I think Orders is the wrong hill to die on.
Other than that, I hope you're writing to GW about how you feel, because I can't help you beyond this point. Oh don't be so melodramatic. Someone asked for opinions on the new codex, I gave mine. You then disagreed with several points prompting a boring longer conversation :smallbiggrin:

[Meatgrinder]

Blood Angels Captains.
True.

I don't know if I have the CP to effectively use them, though. I've only got the one battalion, and I really only have enough models for 1000 points.

Question: At 1000 points, how many smash captains is too many? :smallbiggrin:

[Ornithologist]

Question: At 1000 points, how many smash captains is too many? :smallbiggrin:

More than 3. :smallcool: Rule of threee after all.

To play your friend opponent again at a later date, You are likely okay with just one.

You can go one Captain and then do a BA Librarian Dread. At that points level they are almost interchangeable, and you will get less death threats.

[Occasional Sage]

Handy replies, thanks! I particularly like/hate the term "math-hammer".

* * *

Does a net -1 to hit rolls prevent Overwatch from having a chance? That sure seems to be the way the rules read; if not, please explain.

[Mystic Muse]

Handy replies, thanks! I particularly like/hate the term "math-hammer".

* * *

Does a net -1 to hit rolls prevent Overwatch from having a chance? That sure seems to be the way the rules read; if not, please explain.

Overwatch only hits on a 6 regardless of modifiers, unless an ability specifically says otherwise.

Modifiers come in after, and will affect things like plasma or exploding 6s, but any 6s will still be hits.

[Cheesegear]

You were doing so well right up to the point where you acknowledged that non-datasheet abilities & rules should impact the cost of models.

The problem is that Chaos Cultists are the only example I can think of where this has happened.
IMO, this is because there are simply so many abilities that can be stacked onto them.

However, the alternative to Cultists going up in points, should have been increasing the cost of Abaddon and all Chaos Marine Psykers (especially Daemon Princes, 180 Points is a rort) and declaring that Cultists are definitely not 'Veterans of the Long War'. They even nerfed Tide of Traitors to once per battle as well. I don't agree that Cultists should have gone up in points. I think T3 models with 6+ save are total garbage. However, I also know that GW is lazy, and don't actually understand the problem. Same as when they nerfed Conscripts, they failed to understand what the real problem was and thought that increasing the cost of Conscripts would solve it. The problem is non-Datasheet abilities. Change those, or increase the cost of Stratagems. Not points costs. Increasing the cost of Cultists didn't change ****.
...Except, as I said, for players who didn't understand the problem, to start becoming the problem, else pay extra points on their Cultists for no reason.

That...Or GW could apply the rule way more consistently than literally once.


I don't know if I have the CP to effectively use them, though. I've only got the one battalion, and I really only have enough models for 1000 points.

Assassins, then? They're getting a buff in March's White Dwarf.

Callidus
Eversor/Culexus
Eversor/Culexus

You could even take the -1 CP hit and just take the one.


Question: At 1000 points, how many smash captains is too many? :smallbiggrin:

Probably just the 1? They're 124 Points, after all. At 2, you're looking at 250 Points out of 1000. Then because you'd need to make a Supreme Command, you'd pick up either Mephiston or Lemartes for almost 400 Points, in 1000 Points, tied up in 3 Characters where you don't even have the CPs to barely even use one.

...Yeah. Scratch that. I change my answer to Assassins.
Since the price point for Assassins is a joke, it also presents a bunch of fun conversion opportunities and theme-ing for your army... If you're into that.


More than 3. :smallcool: Rule of threee after all.

3? In 1000 Points? You don't see anything wrong with that?
There's no such thing as Rule of Three. When you call it that, you fall into the exact trap that you did.

Half of my group's Week 1 narrative/casual/escalation campaign games were invalidated because of that.

[Ornithologist]

More than 3. Rule of threee after all.3? In 1000 Points? You don't see anything wrong with that?
There's no such thing as Rule of Three. When you call it that, you fall into the exact trap that you did.

Half of my group's Week 1 narrative/casual/escalation campaign games were invalidated because of that.

Gotcha, so smart-aleck answer doesn't read as joking enough. My actual recomendation was one and a lib dread. That is playable in 1000 point list depending on what other models are available. Run it either as a patrol or a battailon for a total of 3/8 command points. At a lower point game like this, you don't actually need very many command points for him to be effective. In fact I have gone by in games with only useing one (on him) for the Death Co strat at the begining. ...

Though based on your meta, I am glad I don't play there. I'm the guy in my local meta who always jumps up to get a teaching game in with the person whose played exactly never. So I tend to build more fluffy lists with one or two competative elements to them, to show off just enough complexity to show off what the game can do. Goal number one of this kind of game for me is to get them having fun and feeling like they want to play a second time.


I suppose the real question to ask Meatgrinder is what else he has available for a list? He said models were more going to be his limiting factor than anything else.

[YossarianLives]

Would anyone be willing to give me some feedback on an Imperial Guard list? Except, plot twist: I'm not trying to make it better, I'm actually worried its too powerful and is gonna mop the floor with my newbie friend.

In a couple weeks we're gonna play our first proper, in-person game with our respective armies (Guard and Tyranids) and while I'm really excited I don't want it to be a stomp. Neither of us are super competitive, but I've also had the time to build up a proper collection while he's only just got enough models to reach 1000 points.

Like I said, I'm not playing super competitively, so you don't need to tell me that my command squad load out is terrible, or that Cadian hellhounds are a bad idea.

Battalion Detachment: Imperial Guard, Cadian

Company Commander with the Laurels of Command = 30 points - (Warlord: Superior Tactical Training)

Primaris Psyker with laspistol and force staff = 46 points (smite, psychic barrier, nightshroud)

Tank Commander with executioner plasma cannon, 2 plasma cannons and heavy bolter = 185 points

Infantry Squad with flamer, x3 = 138 points

Infantry Squad = 40 points

Platoon Commander with laspistol and chainsword = 20 points

Command Squad, 1 veteran with regimental standard, 1 veteran with medi-pack, 1 veterans with lasgun, 1 veteran with plasma gun = 41 points

Leman Russ Tank with battle cannon and three heavy bolters = 168 points

Hellhound with inferno cannon and heavy flamer = 107 points

Patrol Detachment: Sycarus 9th Conservators, Stormtrooper Company (Militarum Tempestus Doctrine)

Tempestor Prime with command rod = 45 points

Lord Commissar = 35 points

5 Scions with 1 plasma pistol and 2 plasma guns, x2 = 144 points

999 points


I don't know my friend's exact list, but he's gonna be running hive fleet Jormungandr and bringing something along the lines of:
The Swarmlord
Tyranid Prime
Mawloc or Trygon
Tyranid Warriors
Genestealers
Hormagaunts and Termagants
In case anyone is curious, we finally got around to playing that game. It went... not how I expected, especially since we both have no idea what we're doing. I managed to lose, mostly due to my own incompetence but also because my opponent really knew how to make an armour save. It took me three turns of focused fire from my entire gunline just to bring down the Swarmlord.

In retrospect I should have focused on his other stuff and played for objectives, rather than trying to bring down the big, tough, and slow monster. My Scions were also the MVPs. My opponent completely ignored them until the very end, by the end of the game they had probably single-handedly chewed through half his army.

Progress is slow, but learning to be better is fun!

[Meatgrinder]

I suppose the real question to ask Meatgrinder is what else he has available for a list? He said models were more going to be his limiting factor than anything else.

Well, I've got Dark Imperium and Know no Fear right now. I can purchase a few things come March, which is why I was asking about the Custodes. My meta is also OK with me proxying poxwalkers and plague marines as guardsmen, though I probably don't want to abuse that (gotta have some friends).

[Cheesegear]

Gotcha, so smart-aleck answer doesn't read as joking enough...

Oh? You were trying to say that 3 in 1000 Points would be unFun to play against?
If you're citing 'rule of three', then your list is illegal in 1000 Points.


I suppose the real question to ask Meatgrinder is what else he has available for a list?

He asked for a replacement for a Supreme Command Dawn Captains that costs less points than Dawn Captains.

Smash Captain
Smash Captain
Lemartes/Mephiston

However, that's still a lot of points in 1000 if your main Detachment is also Space Marines, hence my suggestion for Assassins.
A Patrol isn't a replacement for a Supreme Command... Unless you need Objective Secured... Then again, that's one of the things that makes Dawn Captains actually pretty good.

[Brookshw]

Gotcha, so smart-aleck answer doesn't read as joking enough.

Don't worry, some of us got the joke.

[Turalisj]

Don't worry, some of us got the joke.

Rule of 3 is rule of 2 at 1000pts.

[Corsair14]

Working on a new list since I want to paint Sons of Horus in their 30k scheme for a new project. Its primarily going to be used for 40k since actual 30k is a dead game in most areas since the switch to 8th removed most people's regular opponents. Most likely I am going to use chaos codex and use the Black Legion rules since I cant really find any real correlation with the SoH legion rules and any of the other 40k legion rules :/

While I am not going super competitive, I would like to win from time to time in a non-tourny environment so I will be using marks if just to represent X squad having veteran skills at doing whatever and allowing associated strats. Ie. A havoc squad with autocannons and having mark of Slaneesh for the endless cacophony strat.

I am avoiding daemons and the goofy looking dino-bots as the don't match the theme or in the case of dino-bots, not wasting money on something that looks that stupid. That and if FW ever decides it wants to make money again and upgrade 30k to whatever the current edition may be at the time, it needs to be able to almost seamlessly switch back and forth.

The theme I am going for is a veteran mechanized infantry list and here is where I am getting down to nuts and bolts.

Abbadon
2 of Some kind of captain/champion characters(likely an exalted champ and chaplain analogue)
3 Rhinos
1 Sicarian with two lascannon sponsons
1 Leviathan Twin grav

1 squad of Justaerin/chaos terminators(haven't figured out loadout or marks yet) Going to build 10 although using ten in a non large game is doubtful. They rock in 30k, just standard termies in 40k :(

1 Havoc squad with either missile launchers or autocannons <MoS>
1 Havoc squad with special weapons <MoS>

3 tactical squads. two full 10 man with 2 heavy bolters, 1 5 man with 2special weapons. All with MoS
<The two ten man squads have the job of taking objectives and with the new bolter rules and their own rules for shooting from legion and strats and their rhinos they should hold things fairly well. The five man team rides with the special weapon havocs in a rhino to take out bad things.>

1 9 man vet squad with melee weapons<MoK>
1 Land Raider or Spartan.(most likely a raider to carry the vets and a choppy character.)

1 Of the legion Whirlwinds with the cool missile launcher system whose name I cant remember but think starts with an S.

Note that I haven't pointed anything out and I wont be able to fit everything in 2500 points even with CA2018 helping. If I get the scheme where I like it I wont really care too much and will probably build it out to 3k anyway since that is my preferred point level. As it stands I have 90% of the models sitting around anyway mostly needing to be stripped. Now that I look at what I want, the only things I need to pick up are Abby, the Justaerins, the vets(reavers) and maybe some of the character models.

Not having played chaos since 5th edition for an all terminator NL Atramentar army(even then I used Space Wolf codex for the drop pods) what kind of loadouts and marks are working these days?