Order's Demand - Next to Useless?

[Merudo]

I'm interested in playing an Order domain Cleric, but I'm not sure if I get the Channel Divinity: Order's Demand text right.

According to my reading it doesn't do a whole lot. It can charm creatures until the end of the next turn or until said creatures take damage, & make creatures drop what they are holding.

The main problem is that the "Charmed" condition is rather weak. Combat-wise, all it means is that the charmed creatures can't target or attack the Cleric - but they still are free to attack other party members. The charmer also has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the charmed creatures but with such a short duration, I'm unsure what sort of "social interaction" would be allowed.

The other effect - having creatures drop what they are holding - is even less useful, with creatures being able to pick up what they dropped as a free interaction action on their turn.

So it seems the uses for Order's Demand are extremely niche, so much that I'm having a hard time picturing them. The best would probably to order some flying archers to drop their weapon while they fly 30' up in the air.

EDIT: Some suggested that the party members could either pick or kick the dropped weapons. By RAW this is typically impossible, as said weapons are in the controlled space of hostile creatures and thus unreachable.

[jaappleton]

I'm interested in playing an Order domain Cleric, but I'm not sure if I get the Channel Divinity: Order's Demand text right.

According to my reading it doesn't do a whole lot. It can charms creatures until the end of the next turn or until said creatures take damage, & makes creatures drop what they are holding.

The main problem is that the "Charmed" condition is rather weak. Combat-wise, all it means is that the charmed creatures can't target or attack the Cleric - but they still are free to attack other party members. The charmer also has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the charmed creatures but with such a short duration, I'm unsure what sort of "social interaction" would be allowed.

The other effect - having creatures drop what they are holding - is even less useful, with creatures being able to pick up what they dropped as a free interaction action on their turn.

So it seems the uses for Order's Demand are extremely niche, so much that I'm having a hard time picturing them. The best would probably to order some flying archers to drop their weapon while they fly 30' up in the air.

In combat...? If you can cause enemies to drop their weapons, that can be useful, depending on how your DM rules picking those weapons back up, and what kind of action it takes. Beyond that? Ehh... Charming them and telling them all to group up in formation before the Wizard casts Fireball is pretty hilarious.

Outside of combat? Charming someone has tons of uses.

[HappyDaze]

I viewed it by how the Azorius would use it. Walk into a den of iniquity and pop this. Now try Intimidation or Persuasion (now with Advantage!) to tell everyone to put their hands in the air and surrender or something similar. Your squad shoots anyone that reaches for their weapons.

[Merudo]

I viewed it by how the Azorius would use it. Walk into a den of iniquity and pop this. Now try Intimidation or Persuasion (now with Advantage!) to tell everyone to put their hands in the air and surrender or something similar. Your squad shoots anyone that reaches for their weapons.

Why not just skip the Order's Demand and let the Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer/etc do the talking? They have a much better Charisma.

Or, why not just try to Intimidate/Persuade two turns in a row (instead of using Order's Demand then Intimidate/Persuade)?

Both strategies are superior to using Order's Demand.

[HappyDaze]

Why not just skip the Order's Demand and let the Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer/etc do the talking? They have a much better Charisma.

Or, why not just try to Intimidate/Persuade two turns in a row (instead of using Order's Demand then Intimidate/Persuade)?

Both strategies are superior to using Order's Demand.

Maybe you don't have a Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer in the group. Also, they might get attacked while making the attempt (you won't if the Charmed holds). Also, Advantage averages out to a pretty big boost, so their higher Charisma might not make as much difference if they do not have Advantage from another source.

The two turns in a row option again leaves you more open to attacks.

I'm not saying Order's Demand is awesome, but it's not "next to useless either.

[MaxWilson]

Outside of combat? Charming someone has tons of uses.

Not by 5E rules for charm. Anything charm can do, Enhance Ability can do better, because it works on everyone you talk to instead of only the specific charmed targets.

[Nhorianscum]

Orders demand is a fun Social/RP channel and when combined with any effect that makes it hard/impossible to pick up weapons again (there are a lot of unattended object effects) it's a pretty nice mass disarm in combat (because order clerics clearly needed more ways to abuse humanoids).

[Merudo]

Not by 5E rules for charm. Anything charm can do, Enhance Ability can do better, because it works on everyone you talk to instead of only the specific charmed targets.

Exactly this. You can cast Enhance Ability on the face of the party, and it lasts an hour instead of a paltry turn.


Also, they might get attacked while making the attempt (you won't if the Charmed holds).

If the creatures want to attack, they'll attack someone in the party regardless. I'd rather it be the Order Cleric with the Heavy Armor proficiency instead of the Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer - so the Charmed condition is actually harmful here.


Orders demand is a fun Social/RP channel and when combined with any effect that makes it hard/impossible to pick up weapons again

I guess a Wizard could cast Catapult to throw one of the dropped items at a different enemy, but beyond that I don't know anything that would be actually usable.

[Chronos]

They can't pick up their stuff if someone else picks it up first. Which is, as you point out, very easy to do.

Of course, it'll depend on initiative rolls, but at the very least, the cleric himself will have a chance to pick up something.

[Nhorianscum]

Exactly this. You can cast Enhance Ability on the face of the party, and it lasts an hour instead of a paltry turn.



If the creatures want to attack, they'll attack someone in the party regardless. I'd rather it be the Order Cleric with the Heavy Armor proficiency instead of the Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer - so the Charmed condition is actually harmful here.



I guess a Wizard could cast Catapult to throw one of the dropped items at a different enemy, but beyond that I don't know anything that would be actually usable.

Gust of wind comes to mind. Roomba all the things.

[redwizard007]

How could I possibly abuse a full round of advantage on social skills?

Make a crowd, mob, or guards part before me like mf Moses.

Force the surrender of a ton of enemies.
Also, disarm, force prone, cause to flee...

Buy time for buffs.

Gain everyone's attention for a spell effect, to allow others to sneak, to upstage a petty Noble...

You think that is less useful than the other Channel Divinity abilities?

[Trustypeaches]

If charmed enemies count as allies, then they become valid targets for your “Voice of Authority” feature which could have some valid uses.

[sophontteks]

Yeah it looks pretty useless to me. Charm on its own is pretty useless. Charm spells and abilities depend on the other flavor text. In this case they drop what they are holding. Ok? They can pick their stuff up as a free action.

Out of combat it lasts 10 seconds. Its useless out of combat too.

[Vorpalchicken]

I think the problem is that many tables are too permissive with simple persuasion checks. Their "diplomancer" is continually attempting things that would be close to impossible with a stranger.

Letting a group of strangers past a secure area that your scary boss told you to guard? DC 30
But looking the other way to help out your friend in need and his friends? DC 15
Lower if the charmer is alone.
The charmed condition should be lowering the DCs drastically - on top of giving advantage - since these are requests coming from a "friend."

A less extreme example: if a stranger on the street asks you for five dollars, you are very likely to say no. If the request is from a friend, you are very likely to say yes.

[redwizard007]

Think Gandalf. How many times did he absolutely dominate a situation by sheer force of will. This is that ability.

[Vorpalchicken]

The weapon dropping part is great. You can pick up a weapon with your own interaction before the enemy turn. Or your other party members. Or familiars. Or sometimes summons.

[MaxWilson]

If charmed enemies count as allies, then they become valid targets for your “Voice of Authority” feature which could have some valid uses.

But they don't count as allies.


The charmed condition should be lowering the DCs drastically - on top of giving advantage - since these are requests coming from a "friend."

Charmed doesn't make them perceive you as a friend. Charm Person does make them view you as a friendly acquaintance, but that's an additional effect of Charm Person on top of charm, just like incapacitation is an additional effect of Hypnotic Pattern on top of charm and domination is an additional effect of Dominate Person on top of charm.

[JackPhoenix]

They can pick their stuff up as a free action.

They can pick up stuff as what? There's no such thing as free action. There's the free object interaction everyone gets, but that must a) be done on their own turn and b) is limited to once per turn. Also, if they wear a shield, they'll have to waste an action to doff it and then again if they want to equip it back.

[sophontteks]

They can pick up stuff as what? There's no such thing as free action. There's the free object interaction everyone gets, but that must a) be done on their own turn and b) is limited to once per turn. Also, if they wear a shield, they'll have to waste an action to doff it and then again if they want to equip it back.
You answered your own question.:smallwink:

Yes they can only do it once and on their turn. Still, it has no cost to them. The worst case scenario, they have to use their backup weapon. They still get their full turn.

[LudicSavant]

To prevent people from picking up an item with their object interaction, you just pick it up with yours. Or one of your allies does.

[mephnick]

Did they change it from drop prone to drop weapons? That's disappointing.

[JackPhoenix]

You answered your own question.:smallwink:

Yes they can only do it once and on their turn. Still, it has no cost to them. The worst case scenario, they have to use their backup weapon. They still get their full turn.

Not if they use a shield. Not if they use TWF. Not if they're casters and you take their foci. Not if they're archers, because they propably don't have backup ranged weapon. Just because they may not lost their action doesn't mean they'll be able to act on their full potential.

NPC multiattacks especially are funny for that, because they say what exactly you can use them with. For example, bandit captain can use multiattack to make 2 scimitar attacks and one dagger attack... but if you take his scimitar away, he's stuck to attacking once with a dagger in melee (and for less damage too) or twice at range.

And unlike, say, Command, Order's Demand doesn't require you to see the targets, hearing them is enough.

[Merudo]

They can't pick up their stuff if someone else picks it up first. Which is, as you point out, very easy to do.


I thought you couldn't pick up something in an occupied square as a free object interaction action, but it seems I was wrong on this.

EDIT: A character cannot move into a square occupied by an hostile creature, so said character can't reach the weapon.


Also, if they wear a shield, they'll have to waste an action to doff it and then again if they want to equip it back.

Is that how it works? Do they have to spend an action to drop the shield? That would be very powerful. I thought shields were considered "equipped/worn" and thus would not be dropped by the spell.


Gust of wind comes to mind. Roomba all the things.

Gust of Wind is a mediocre spell with a short duration, I'm doubtful this combo is worth it.



The charmed condition should be lowering the DCs drastically - on top of giving advantage - since these are requests coming from a "friend."


Agreed!


You think that is less useful than the other Channel Divinity abilities?

Yes. Path to the Grave, Preserve Life, Destructive Wrath are much better than Order's Demand.

[HappyDaze]

Can the rest of your group Ready to swoop in and grab up all of the dropped objects when you pop this?

[stoutstien]

The channel is weak due to how powerful the rest of the class being great.
-I would personally consider the spell list to be very good
-Free reaction attack for allies when you heal or buff
-bonus action casting hold person, bless, or any other enchantment.

[sophontteks]

Can the rest of your group Ready to swoop in and grab up all of the dropped objects when you pop this?
They would be giving up their turn to do this, and the enemy could make their save.


Not if they use a shield. Not if they use TWF. Not if they're casters and you take their foci. Not if they're archers, because they propably don't have backup ranged weapon. Just because they may not lost their action doesn't mean they'll be able to act on their full potential.

NPC multiattacks especially are funny for that, because they say what exactly you can use them with. For example, bandit captain can use multiattack to make 2 scimitar attacks and one dagger attack... but if you take his scimitar away, he's stuck to attacking once with a dagger in melee (and for less damage too) or twice at range.

And unlike, say, Command, Order's Demand doesn't require you to see the targets, hearing them is enough.

Like I said, worst case they use a backup weapon. This would imply that they aren't at their full potential. I'm not disagreeing.

NPCs can use weapons that are not on their default list. Those are for the DMs convenience.

[MaxWilson]

You answered your own question.:smallwink:

Yes they can only do it once and on their turn. Still, it has no cost to them. The worst case scenario, they have to use their backup weapon. They still get their full turn.

Some creatures, like Githyanki or Shadar Kai, don't have a backup weapon. They are just reduced to punching and lose ~50 points of DPR when they lose their main weapon. E.g. instead of 16 piercing + 52 necrotic + 28 force damage via Multiattack, Gloom Weaver is reduced to spellcasting for 28 force damage or using crowd control spells like Hypnotic Pattern. It's still a threat but it's much less dangerous.

Disarm maneuvers including DMG Disarm maneuver, Battlemaster Disarm ability, and the Fear Spell are very potent against such creatures. Order's Demand would only work against a subset of these creatures (e.g. not demons, not Fire Giants) but having another way to disarm enemies can't possibly be bad.

I don't play with UA though or Ravnica so Order doesn't exist in my games.

[sophontteks]

They don't have a backup weapon on their card, at least.

[ProsecutorGodot]

They don't have a backup weapon on their card, at least.

The Githyanki don't have backup weapons because their weapons are special magical weapons that they will into existence through psionic training. Them carrying a backup (we can reason they only get to create one Silver Sword this way) would be ludicrous, as it would be pretty inneffective against an Illithid. They're also very protective of these weapons, so even just making them drop it is enough to throw them into a rage.

It's pretty well implied (though not at all confirmed) that Gloom Weaver weapons are made of coalesced shadow, so them having a backup of anywhere near the strength of their Shadow Spear is also unlikely.

EDIT: The silver greatsword that Githyanki Knights (and those of a higher rank) use is actually a magic item availabe from MToF. Strangely, it's item card grants a lot of extra benefits like immunity to charms and resistance to psychic damage but this isn't on the stat block of any of them.

[JackPhoenix]

SDisarm maneuvers including DMG Disarm maneuver, Battlemaster Disarm ability, and the Fear Spell are very potent against such creatures. Order's Demand would only work against a subset of these creatures (e.g. not demons, not Fire Giants) but having another way to disarm enemies can't possibly be bad.

Order's Demand works against anything not immune to charm. In fact, for your specific example, it targets fire giants' second worst save, so it's better option than DMG or BM disarm.

[MaxWilson]

Order's Demand works against anything not immune to charm. In fact, for your specific example, it targets fire giants' second worst save, so it's better option than DMG or BM disarm.

Ah, I see. This thread gave me the impression that Order's Demand worked only on humanoids but apparently not. As I say, I don't do UA or Ravnica.

[Kaliayev]

Did they change it from drop prone to drop weapons? That's disappointing.

Yeah, I wasn't happy with most of the changes they made for the official GGR release. Imo, they should have just reduced order's wrath to 1d8 force damage and made the bonus action enchantment spell casting modification. The official version loses its appeal at higher levels. Fortunately, my DM is letting me stick with the UA version for the high tier game I'm playing an order cleric in.

[Mellack]

For extra ironic fun have the cleric make them drop their weapons followed up with your wizard casting animate objects on them. Now they are getting attacked by their own weapons and nobody had spend any time picking them up.

[Merudo]

They can't pick up their stuff if someone else picks it up first. Which is, as you point out, very easy to do.


I gave it some thoughts, and it's not so simple.

The Order Cleric should enter the fight unarmed, so they have a free hand to pick a weapon up.

However party members likely won't be able to pick anything up, because their hands are already yielding their own weapon & shield. So the ability is effectively a single person disarm.

[JackPhoenix]

I gave it some thoughts, and it's not so simple.

The Order Cleric should enter the fight unarmed, so they have a free hand to pick a weapon up.

However party members likely won't be able to pick anything up, because their hands are already yielding their own weapon & shield. So the ability is effectively a single person disarm.

Assuming you don't have things like a horde of minions (hirelings/soldiers or unseen servants/undead/thrulls), like Azorius or Orzhov (the two guilds who do have Order clerics) do in Ravnica.

[TheFryingPen]

Order's demand is perfect for situations in which enemies ready attacks. E.g. before storming a room when you know you're being expected.

[JackPhoenix]

Order's demand is perfect for situations in which enemies ready attacks. E.g. before storming a room when you know you're being expected.

That... actually works. You don't need to see them, hearing is enough, and unlike spells, it's not blocked by full cover... If you aren't aware of the enemies, it won't work, but yeah, that's pretty good use.

[Mellack]

I gave it some thoughts, and it's not so simple.

The Order Cleric should enter the fight unarmed, so they have a free hand to pick a weapon up.

However party members likely won't be able to pick anything up, because their hands are already yielding their own weapon & shield. So the ability is effectively a single person disarm.

They could also just use their interaction to kick the unattended weapon away. Even better is there is a pit, chasm, lava, river, etc. to kick it into. Even without that, the enemy now has to move away, either using an action to disengage or taking a OA. In anything larger than a small room you could easily kick it farther than they can move out and back in one turn.

[Merudo]

They could also just use their interaction to kick the unattended weapon away.

Nice - have you seen the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578993-Free-Object-Interaction-Kick-a-Weapon-Away) I posted 10 minute before your post?

I wanted to make sure this use of the free interaction action is kosher before discussing it here.

[Mellack]

I hadn't seen the other thread, but I have seen that move done in other games. As it is not specifically stated the same as picking up a weapon is, there will have to be a DM ruling. That said, I think most tables would find it acceptable.

[Merudo]

Order's demand is perfect for situations in which enemies ready attacks. E.g. before storming a room when you know you're being expected.

It's not possible to ready actions outside of combat.


I hadn't seen the other thread, but I have seen that move done in other games. As it is not specifically stated the same as picking up a weapon is, there will have to be a DM ruling. That said, I think most tables would find it acceptable.

Picking the dropped weapon up, or kicking the weapon away would by RAW require the Cleric to move unto the controlled space of the creature, which is not allowed unless the Cleric is at least two sizes larger or smaller than the creature.

[Sage Tellah]

If not moving a dropped weapon away from its owner, a grappling ally could helpfully move an owner away from his weapon once dropped. Grappling an opponent is much less dangerous once they're unarmed.