Any good DFA builds?

[Ozzie831]

Hey everyone,

Ive been looking at make a Dragonfire Adept based around battle field control and debuffs; maybe with some invocations that boost skills on the side. But I cant seem to find any actual full builds. I just keep seeing partial builds that only go up to like level 8.

Ive read through the main handbook; as well as, some of the smaller guides but I cant seem to find an actual build fitting my criteria. Or they use different races that my game doesnt really allow. But all of the guides or forum posts are all like " Just get Entangling Exhalation, Slow Breath, Chilling fog and you are golden".... Some of the guides say that the DFA are pretty feat dependent but only list off like 3-4 feats. That doesnt really help me.

Im pretty new to D&D in general so my knowledge of all the potential "feats/invocation/anything" combinations/synergy is pretty small so I usually go look at builds and read guides to get ideas for my characters.

My game allows for flaws, any 3.5 book or dragon magazine, we are coincidentally level 8, my group has plenty of damage already but barely any control. I was thinking of just being a Human since free feats and extra skill points are nice. Maybe even a race with a con bonus like a whisper gnome, they have a lot of cool bonuses, even with the negative to cha (plus being a small fire breathing character sounds really amusing).

Im not quite sure on the Multiclassing bit since I hear DFA is pretty decent as is and I hear that there just arent really any good PrCs that really mix well anyways.

I was thinking of some sort of stat priority like Con/Dex/Int/=Cha/Wis/Str. Con for obvious reasons, dex for better initiation and AC, Int for more skill points, Cha for invocation DCs, Wis and Str are kind of dump stats.

I would appreciate any help.

[Zaq]

To be honest, the advice about just getting Entangling Exhalation, Endure Exposure, and Slow Breath really is enough to make you functional. DFAs are pretty plug-and-play as long as you get EE. The rest is mostly gravy.

This does mean that you have some nice flexibility with your other feats. Breathing is a standard action that relies on positioning, so I found Flyby Attack to be a godsend on my DFA. You can get flight through the Dragon Wings line if you don’t have it from another source. If you feel like getting a dragonmark, there’s a feat in Dragonmarked (I think it’s called Breath of Syberis or something similar) that directly bumps breath damage, but it does effectively cost two feats, so it’s unimpressive if you aren’t gaining a good trick from your dragonmark. Knowledge Devotion can improve breath damage if you go the Knowledge-monkey route. I took that feat that lets you make a wall with your breath (Exhaled Barrier?), but it was never as useful as I wanted it to be, so you might go in another direction. Extra Invocation is less amazing on a DFA than it is on a Warlock, but if there’s another least invocation that really calls to you, it’s an option. Draconic Aura can increase the save DC of your breath when you use a certain element, if that matters to you.

You can also take advantage of the DFA’s high optimization floor to explore some weird and fun feats that you might not have space for on a more feat-strapped character, since you don’t NEED much else once you have the basics in place. Dreamtelling (HoH) is fun with Draconic Knowledge. Spirit Sense (HoH) is just a bizarre and interesting option. I never miss a chance to plug Fell Conspiracy (EoE), which is not actually evil but does some hilarious things for your party’s perceptive skills. Maybe take Hidden Talent or something and then start looking at the weird uses for a psionic focus (I’ve never built a character who can really use Mental Leap or Inquisitor, but I feel like doing so would be fun). Take a feat that expands what you can use skills for, like Wanderer’s Diplomacy. If you’re going for a build with hilariously giant CON, take one of the feat chains that lets you dive in front of an attack on your ally (there’s one in Drow of the Underdark and I think one in Sword and Fist, but my memory may be failing me there) and just face-tank with ginormous piles of HP. The point is that DFAs are blessed with the ability to honestly be pretty darn decent with just a small amount of baseline investment, so you actually can afford to go in directions you wouldn’t be able to go on some other builds.

For invocations, once Endure Exposure is out of the way, I like either Draconic Knowledge, Beguiling Influence, or Magic Insight as your other least. For your lessers, getting flight is important, but if you get flight from feats, a race, or an item, you don’t need Draconic Flight. Still, it’s an option if you’d rather not spend feats or gold. Charm is okay if you have CHA. Having a dispel is always useful, so Voracious Dispelling is fun. Energy Resistance is situational but does come up. Talk to your GM about if you can use breath weapons while using Humanoid Shape or not.

[daremetoidareyo]

Zaq is right.

What do you want your character to be like?

[Ruethgar]

For BFC Power Surge is nice. +50% duration at the cost of one round cooldown is pretty good, plus I think there’s a meta breath feat to remove that.

I don’t have a full build for you, I’ve only really dabbled in DFA in theory, the nearest I’ve come to a breath character was a mineral warrior awakened lizard with dragon wings(can still glide if not fly) and a sculpted on aptitude sand blaster for stunning fist and boomerang daze. Since he could skirmish from underground and only needed blindsense to hit, was pretty deadly. So much so that he had to be retired when they restructured the game.

[radthemad4]

Strafing Breath from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting looks fun. Could aim for that and a high fly speed and maneuverability.

[CactusAir]

To be honest, the advice about just getting Entangling Exhalation, Endure Exposure, and Slow Breath really is enough to make you functional. DFAs are pretty plug-and-play as long as you get EE. The rest is mostly gravy.

This does mean that you have some nice flexibility with your other feats. Breathing is a standard action that relies on positioning, so I found Flyby Attack to be a godsend on my DFA. You can get flight through the Dragon Wings line if you don’t have it from another source. If you feel like getting a dragonmark, there’s a feat in Dragonmarked (I think it’s called Breath of Syberis or something similar) that directly bumps breath damage, but it does effectively cost two feats, so it’s unimpressive if you aren’t gaining a good trick from your dragonmark. Knowledge Devotion can improve breath damage if you go the Knowledge-monkey route. I took that feat that lets you make a wall with your breath (Exhaled Barrier?), but it was never as useful as I wanted it to be, so you might go in another direction. Extra Invocation is less amazing on a DFA than it is on a Warlock, but if there’s another least invocation that really calls to you, it’s an option. Draconic Aura can increase the save DC of your breath when you use a certain element, if that matters to you.

You can also take advantage of the DFA’s high optimization floor to explore some weird and fun feats that you might not have space for on a more feat-strapped character, since you don’t NEED much else once you have the basics in place. Dreamtelling (HoH) is fun with Draconic Knowledge. Spirit Sense (HoH) is just a bizarre and interesting option. I never miss a chance to plug Fell Conspiracy (EoE), which is not actually evil but does some hilarious things for your party’s perceptive skills. Maybe take Hidden Talent or something and then start looking at the weird uses for a psionic focus (I’ve never built a character who can really use Mental Leap or Inquisitor, but I feel like doing so would be fun). Take a feat that expands what you can use skills for, like Wanderer’s Diplomacy. If you’re going for a build with hilariously giant CON, take one of the feat chains that lets you dive in front of an attack on your ally (there’s one in Drow of the Underdark and I think one in Sword and Fist, but my memory may be failing me there) and just face-tank with ginormous piles of HP. The point is that DFAs are blessed with the ability to honestly be pretty darn decent with just a small amount of baseline investment, so you actually can afford to go in directions you wouldn’t be able to go on some other builds.

For invocations, once Endure Exposure is out of the way, I like either Draconic Knowledge, Beguiling Influence, or Magic Insight as your other least. For your lessers, getting flight is important, but if you get flight from feats, a race, or an item, you don’t need Draconic Flight. Still, it’s an option if you’d rather not spend feats or gold. Charm is okay if you have CHA. Having a dispel is always useful, so Voracious Dispelling is fun. Energy Resistance is situational but does come up. Talk to your GM about if you can use breath weapons while using Humanoid Shape or not.

This person speaks wisdom.

I would note that you do need to put some effort into Covering DFA's weaknesses. Have something you can use against high Ref foes with evasion - a mental-based attack power is nice, since that doesn't rely on your weak BAB. You may also want to invest feats and more likely, WBL into defenses, since DFA doesn't provide you with a lot. Keep in mind that wearing armor doesn't restrict your abilities, even if you are not proficient. And the non-proficiency penalty to attack rolls is something you can live with since ideally you won't be making any.

[Troacctid]

Have something you can use against high Ref foes with evasion - a mental-based attack power is nice, since that doesn't rely on your weak BAB.
Slow Breath already covers that, I think.

[Zaq]

Enemies that actually have Evasion are super rare, though. I can’t think of a single monster that gets it without class levels. But yeah, Slow Breath works fine on them, as do Thunder Breath, Weakening Breath, and a few others.

[Troacctid]

Evasion on monsters is pretty rare (the only one I know of that gets it is the shadow creature template), but in published adventures, rogue is one of the more common classes to see on NPCs with PC class levels, and it only takes 2 levels to get evasion, so while it's still uncommon, it's maybe more common than you might expect at first blush.

[Ozzie831]

Ok I came up with a little bit of a sample build. Let me know what you guys think.

Whisper Gnome Level 8

Stats:
Con>Dex>Int>=Cha>Wis>Str

Weapon:
- +2 Light Pick
- Crit: X4
- Enchantments:
- Defending: Add Enhancement Bonus to AC
- Frost: Mainly for Dragon Spirit Cincture

Armor:
- Mythril Chain Shirt (+4 AC, max +6 Dex, ACP 0, 10% spell failure.
- Darkwood Shield (+2 AC, ACP 0, 15% spell failure)
- Dragon Spirit Cincture
- Eversmoking Bottle
- Amulet of Health +2

Flaws: 2 flaws for 2 extra feats at level 1 (Cheesy indeed)
- Non Combatant: -2 to melee attacks.
- Shaky: -2 to ranged attacks.

Attack SAVES
Bonus Fort Ref Will Invocations Special
1 DFA +0 +2 +0 +2 1 BW 1d6, Dragontouched, least invocations
2 DFA +1 +3 +0 +3 1 Breath effect, scales +2
3 DFA +1 +3 +1 +3 2 BW 2d6
4 DFA +2 +4 +1 +4 2 Dragonkin
5 DFA +2 +4 +1 +4 2 BW 3d6, breath effect
6 DFA +3 +5 +2 +5 3 DR 2/magic, lesser invocations
7 DFA +3 +5 +2 +5 3 BW 4d6
8 DFA +4 +6 +2 +6 4 Scales +0.03
9 DFA +4 +6 +3 +6 4 BW 5d6
10 DFA +5 +7 +3 +7 4 BW range doubles, breath effect
11 DFA +5 +7 +3 +7 5 BW 6d6, greater invocations
12 DFA +6/1 +8 +4 +8 5 Breath effect
13 DFA +6/1 +8 +4 +8 6 Scales +4
14 DFA +7/2 +9 +4 +9 6 BW 7d6
15 DFA +7/2 +9 +5 +9 6 Breath effect
16 DFA +8/3 +10 +5 +10 7 DR 5/magic, dark invocations
17 DFA +8/3 +10 +5 +10 7 BW 8d6
18 DFA +9/4 +11 +6 +11 8 Scales +5
19 DFA +9/4 +11 +6 +11 8 Immunities
20 DFA +10/5 +12 +6 +12 8 BW 9d6, breath effect

Feats:
- Level 1:
- Entangling Exhalation
- Ability Focus(Breath Weapon)
- Dragontouched
- Draconic Heritage (Blue, get hide as class skill from Races of Dragons). Flaw 1
- Draconic Knowledge. Flaw 2
- Level 3: Draconic Aura (?)
- Level 6: Draconic Skin
- Level 9: Darkstalker
- Level 12: Double Draconic Aura (?)
- Level 15:
- Level 18:

Breath effects:
-Frost breath
-Slow breath

Invocations to level 8:
Magic Insight or Draconic Knowledge
Endure Exposure
Walk Unseen
Voidsense

[Zaq]

Draconic Skin isn't very good. I really wouldn't recommend it.

Draconic Heritage isn't my personal favorite feat, but if you want to be stealthy, I guess I've seen worse ways of getting Hide. If the blueness specifically isn't an integral part of the character concept, you might go green for Move Silently and then take Martial Study for a Shadow Hand maneuver to get Hide as well, since having one but not the other is kind of questionable. (Plus, getting a maneuver is fun.)

Personally I'd just axe as many [Draconic] feats as possible. I find them to generally be of marginal utility at best. I can see the connection between the Draconic Knowledge feat and the Draconic Knowledge invocation, but I admit that I'm not super impressed by the bonus the feat is giving. If Draconic Skin is primarily just to give an extra bonus to Draconic Knowledge, I'd rather take Draconic Senses to help with the scouting aspect of things, but to be honest neither is really impressive.

You seem to have one feat too many at level 1. I see Dragontouched as a bonus from DFA, so that's great. Entangling Exhalation as your level 1 feat, Draconic Heritage from a flaw, Draconic Knowledge from a second flaw, and then you have Ability Focus. Whisper gnomes don't generally get a bonus feat at level 1; is that a houserule or just a mistake?

Draconic Aura is okay when you're doing damage of your favorite type, but do keep in mind that it won't apply to, like, Slow Breath or whatever other options. It's still not a terrible feat, but it's something to keep in mind. Not sure what you'd need a double aura for, though.

Darkstalker is a good choice if you intend to be stealthy. I don't generally think of DFAs as stealthy, but it's cool to play around with that a bit! Walk Unseen probably makes a huge difference there.

Voidsense isn't bad considering that you only need to know what square something is in in order to target it. That said, a Glaring Eye (RotD pp. 128-9) can do the same for just 10k GP.

If you're relying on your Silence ability to keep you stealthy, you could take the Extra Silence feat. Especially if you have positive CHA.

Don't spend gold on a frost weapon just for Dragon Spirit Cincture. Just get a cheap Least Crystal of Energy Assault keyed to the proper element. Same effect on the Dragon Spirit Cincture but way, WAY cheaper.

Overall, you could do worse. Again, once you have the basics covered, you genuinely do have freedom to play around. You made some choices that I wouldn't have personally made, but the character should honestly be pretty functional overall.

[Ozzie831]

Draconic skin was just for more draconic feats than anything

In my group: hide, move silent, and (I believe) slight of hand are all rolled into "stealth". So the dragon choice isnt that big of a deal.

IMO Draconic feats are all pieces of garbage for DFA due to having to use arcane spells that you dont have. But I actually dont have any other feats in mind to add anyways. But I do like me some good knowledge checks.

You are correct about the extra feat. I was playing with the idea of just making him a Human originally. Also I made the build at like 3am.

Darkstalker is just a nice synergy with Walk Unseen; as well as the Eversmoking Bottle. Plus all of the
hide bonuses from being a whisper gnome. Also sometimes you just need to get somewhere with literally no one knowing where you are. Except from someone with truesight or something like it. Plus Im a gnome, I may just want to tie someones shoe laces together.


Draconic Aura was more for:
- Senses: This aura grants you a bonus on Listen checks, Spot checks, and initiative checks.
- Insight: This aura grants you a bonus on Decipher Script, Knowledge, and Spellcraft checks.
I love me some skill monkeying

Voidsense was just a good trick with the Eversmoking Bottle since you dont need to roll for attacks. You just know where they are by sense and wham! Also Im pretty knew to the game and I dont really know how grafts work yet. But it sounds pretty handy.

Least Crystal of Energy Assault? Never heard of it, Ill have to go look it up.

[Troacctid]

If you don't have any particular feats in mind, then that's a good time to take Extra Invocation. I also like Shape Soulmeld (Lucky Dice), since you don't have much else to do with your swift actions.

Darkstalker is good if you're doing the eversmoking bottle type of combo. I support it.

[Efrate]

I like shape soulmeld bluesteel bracers for initiative bonuses for everyone, or if you go with knowledge devotion and the knowledge invocation shape soulmeld elder spirit pumps your check even more.

[Cavir]

You don't mention which races are allowed but I'm currently playing (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1702490) a Raptoran Dragonborn and I like it. It's thematic, gives the CON bonus you wanted (dragonborn gnome as an alternate?), and it gets you both flight and darkvision.

The game I'm in allows for gestalt at levels 1, 6, 11, and 16. Dragon Shaman's auras of healing (save all dying allies without spending an action) and breath power enhancement have proved their value. Crusader gets me more staying power and helps keep the enemy from attacking allies, though I pretty much never get around to using the strike maneuvers. I tend to alternate between Entangling Exhalation and slow breath, then full blast when the extra damage is needed or the enemy is near dead.

Feats on my list for the future...
Improved Flight
Flyby Attack
Ability Focus
Extra Invocation
Aerial Reflexes
Exhaled Barrier

[Ozzie831]

Hey everyone,
I took some of your guys' advice and also did some more research.

This is what Ive come up with so far. I changed some stuff around, fixed my mistakes, as well as things I wasnt too happy with. Let me know what you think.

Weapon: (Made it cheaper for the same effect)
- +1 Light Pick
- Crit: X4
- Enchantments:
- Defending: Add Enhancement Bonus to AC
- Least Crystal Of Cold Assault

Items: (Added for usefulness)
- Handy Haversack

Graft: (Replaces Voidsense and got some other bonuses to boot)
- Glaring Eye

Feats: (Mostly got rid of the Draconic feats, never liked them anyways.)
- Level 1:
- Entangling Exhalation
- Dragontouched
- Ability Focus(Breath Weapon). Flaw 1
- Draconic Heritage (Blue, get hide as class skill from Races of Dragons). Flaw 2

- Level 3: Draconic Aura (Senses)
- Level 6: Extra Invocation
- Level 9: Darkstalker
- Level 12: Double Draconic Aura (Insight)
- Level 15:
- Level 18:

Invocations at level 8:
- Magic Insight
- Draconic Knowledge
- Endure Exposure
- Walk Unseen
- Frightful Presence

Im still not sure what else to add item or feat wise. Maybe grab a few wands. But I think its coming in pretty good. I only have the Auras because they fit the theme, but I also dont really know what I want.

We dont really do a whole lot of aerial combat so Im not really eyeballing any of the flying feats. But if it does, then I will just grab one of the flying invocations later. Also Exhaled Barrier, seems pretty underwhelming and pretty situational to be particularly useful.

[Troacctid]

I don't think you can dump Charisma and expect frightful presence to be any good. Replace it with voracious dispelling. Taking 20 on dispel checks is sick. Humanoid shape and draconic flight are also fine choices.

You're going to want that pick to be a dragonfang weapon (Draconomicon), as that will make it do both cold and fire damage, applying the DC boost to both breaths. No reason to give it any enhancements—a masterwork weapon carries the least crystal just fine, and you can spend that money more efficiently elsewhere.

Double Draconic Aura doesn't give you a second aura. You'd need to take Draconic Aura a second time in order for it to do anything. If you can't think of any better feat to take instead, just take Extra Invocation again.

If you're doing stealth, I would consider taking darkness as an invocation and grabbing the Blend into Shadows feat to hide in plain sight as a bonus action at will.

For items, look at the item section of my warlock handbook (see signature). It should mostly be applicable to DFAs as well. At level 8, you have 27k gp, so I might go something like:

Dragon spirit cincture of +2 Constitution (6,000 gp)
Dragonfang weapon (600 gp)
Least crystal of energy assault (600 gp)
Handy haversack (2,000 gp)
Breed leech symbiont (2,000 gp)
+1 mithral shirt (2,100 gp)
+1 mithral buckler (2,009 gp)
Cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp)
Thorn pouch (4,400 gp)
~2000 gp's worth of miscellaneous items to fill the haversack

[Ozzie831]

My group is a little lenient on the gold load out so I get 32k.

Voracious Dispelling was my second choice. I forgot it was Cha based since the Dragon Magic book description just said Will save and I connected that with the Dragon Breath DC and not the Invocation DC. Not sure why.

Ill have to go check out the Dragonfang Weapon again. Seems like good synergy with the Crystal. Also I wanted the +1 for the Defending Enchant. I love me some AC.

Ill have to go check out the Blend into Shadows feat

Ill have to go check it out. I dont have time right now. But your list has some good ideas. Some I dont think will be necessary. Like the Thorn pouch, the Mithral Buckler seems overkill vs the one that I posted earlier, and breed leech.

Also can you just add +2 con to that Dragon spirit cincture? cool if you can. I just didnt know you could

[Troacctid]

Also I wanted the +1 for the Defending Enchant. I love me some AC.
Defending weapon is an extremely inefficient source of AC, unless you have a tooth of Leraje to go with it, and that's outside your price range.


Ill have to go check it out. I dont have time right now. But your list has some good ideas. Some I dont think will be necessary. Like the Thorn pouch, the Mithral Buckler seems overkill vs the one that I posted earlier, and breed leech.
Thorn pouch is a generally good item but replaceable. Mithral shield could easily be downgraded to masterwork if you don't mind the spell failure. Breed leech is generally a better version of the glaring eye if you can get one, as it gives most of the same functionality for a fraction of the price while also boosting your HP. (The symbiont has blindsight, and can relay enemy locations to you telepathically.)


Also can you just add +2 con to that Dragon spirit cincture? cool if you can. I just didnt know you could
As per MIC page 234.

[Ozzie831]

So many things to learn still....

I agree, its really not that efficient but in my game any bit of AC helps. This Character is going to have a pretty decent amount of AC already thanks to the small size and the scales.

Ive been attempting to find the Breed leech. I read that it is in the "Magic of Eberron" book but I cant seem to get a PDF of it. However from the limited google results Ive came across, only says they get Darkvision, boosts hp, and a bonus to fort saves. But without the actual book, I cant confirm that. Or Im wrong about which book they are in, which is totally a possibility.

Thats pretty kick ass. Im always down for improving magical items.

[Troacctid]

A +1 defending weapon provides +1 AC for 8,000 gp, which is a very poor rate. You'd have to already have a +2 deflection bonus, +2 natural armor bonus, +4 armor, +4 shield, +2 Dexterity, and robe of the vagabond (total cost: 50k gp) before paying 8k for another +1 starts to become marginally worth it, and even then, I think parrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#parrying) is better.

[Zaq]

I don't think you can dump Charisma and expect frightful presence to be any good. Replace it with voracious dispelling. Taking 20 on dispel checks is sick. Humanoid shape and draconic flight are also fine choices.

You're going to want that pick to be a dragonfang weapon (Draconomicon), as that will make it do both cold and fire damage, applying the DC boost to both breaths. No reason to give it any enhancements—a masterwork weapon carries the least crystal just fine, and you can spend that money more efficiently elsewhere.

Double Draconic Aura doesn't give you a second aura. You'd need to take Draconic Aura a second time in order for it to do anything. If you can't think of any better feat to take instead, just take Extra Invocation again.

If you're doing stealth, I would consider taking darkness as an invocation and grabbing the Blend into Shadows feat to hide in plain sight as a bonus action at will.

For items, look at the item section of my warlock handbook (see signature). It should mostly be applicable to DFAs as well. At level 8, you have 27k gp, so I might go something like:

Dragon spirit cincture of +2 Constitution (6,000 gp)
Dragonfang weapon (600 gp)
Least crystal of energy assault (600 gp)
Handy haversack (2,000 gp)
Breed leech symbiont (2,000 gp)
+1 mithral shirt (2,100 gp)
+1 mithral buckler (2,009 gp)
Cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp)
Thorn pouch (4,400 gp)
~2000 gp's worth of miscellaneous items to fill the haversack


I seem to recall that it’s ambiguous if you can drop the +1 from the weapon and have the Dragon Spirit Cincture work. Doesn’t the DSC specify that you have to be wielding a “magic weapon” that deals the right type of damage? A masterwork weapon with a crystal is definitely a weapon doing the right type of damage, but it’s not ironclad that it’s a “magic” weapon doing the right type of damage. The crystal makes the weapon do damage, but I’m not sure it makes it into a magic weapon. Putting a +1 on there makes it unambiguous.