Belkar's Final Destination

[HackneyedTrope]

So, we all know (comic 572, I can't post links yet) that Belkar will see his end before the (in-comic) year is out. BUT, what next? He's too evil to ever get into not-abyss, based on the fact that his evil is measured in Kilonazis, but what next? He's to evil to not get eternal torment, but any eternal tormentor has to be wary of someday getting stabbed, sliced up, urinated on, made into a litterbox, etc...especially since the Rule of Funny is routinely in play on this webcomic, and most people are genre-savvy enough to recognize that. As such, I believe that Belkar's ultimate fate is to be a hit-man for the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission.

Uhh...yeah. So there. What do you think?

[hroþila]

Undone by the Snarl is a distinct possibility.

[LadyEowyn]

Undone by the Snarl is a distinct possibility.
I’d agree with that as the most likely possibility.

He’s had a whole life of gleefully killing people for amusement, he’s not going to make any of the Neutral afterlives just from a couple weeks of not doing anything especially evil.

[locksmith of lo]

He’s had a whole life of gleefully killing people for amusement, he’s not going to make any of the Neutral afterlives just from a couple weeks of not doing anything especially evil.

there is no possibility of redemption? he is on the road to redeeming himself so maybe his final act will be measured in mega-unicorns (tm) that will erase all of the kilo-nazi past damage. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

He's to evil to not get eternal torment, but any eternal tormentor has to be wary of someday getting stabbed, sliced up, urinated on, made into a litterbox, etc...

Even assuming we see his afterlife, you're assuming a remarkably low-level afterlife here.

[Synesthesy]

Belkar won't die at all, in Oracle's face
I think that, from Belkar's point of view, the neutral afterlife would be very boring. He could end in some sort of evil plane, but instead of being punished for eternity and/or become a demon, he'll become a supernatural fiend hunter.

[Fyraltari]

Even assuming we see his afterlife, you're assuming a remarkably low-level afterlife here.

Exactly, Belkar isn't king of the world now, why would he be in the Afterlife. Bear in mind if he is still CE when he dies and his soul is not unmade then he is headed to the same place as Xykon.

[Kish]

This thread is disappointing. I was expecting "is he actually changing enough not to go to the Abyss?" not, "is he too much of a badass for demons to dare to touch him?" which--as other people have pointed out--is just goofy. If he goes to the Abyss, he'll be broken down into a mindless mane like everyone else there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

he is headed to the same place as Xykon.

Nah. I picture Belkar more of CCE ("For the lulz (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)") than a full CE. Yes, I am aware that Xykon does a lot of Evil because he's bored, but his general motivation is power for power's sake. If I'm reading the chart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Outer_Planes) correctly, I'd imagine Xykon would end up in the Abyss, while Belkar is more the Pandemonium type. So, if Belkar is to have a companion as he is slowly driven mad into merging with the plane, it'd be Hilgya.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

there is no possibility of redemption? he is on the road to redeeming himself so maybe his final act will be measured in mega-unicorns (tm) that will erase all of the kilo-nazi past damage. :smallbiggrin:

The smiley makes me think this is a joke, but in case some of it isn't, redemption isn't that easy.

To the OP, do you honestly think that if Belkar went to the Abysss, he'd end up running the place because Genre Savvy/Rule of Funny? I honestly don't know what to say to that.

[Sloanzilla]

Since Belkar is a main character whose redemption attempt is being compared somewhat to Miko's failed redemption arc, then, yes, I feel like there will be some ultimate payout to the reader indicating at least some level of success.

We don't really have anything to indicate whether or not the selection process in the lower planes is based on net evilness or if what direction you are headed in is somehow equally as important or even more so. While this doesn't seem like a world in which deathbed confessions are that significant, Thor's discussion on how faith works does seem to imply that what you are doing/thinking/saying in your final moments has some added weight.

Storywise, it does seem like "where you are at the end" should have a bit more weight than an objective weighing of every portion of your adult life. Consider a paladin who spends 30 years as a good guy and the final 10 years of his or her life as a blackguard. Wouldn't that person be more Abyss-bound than someone who spent 30 years as a bandit and the final 10 years attempting to atone for past evils?

[Synesthesy]

Since Belkar is a main character whose redemption attempt is being compared somewhat to Miko's failed redemption arc, then, yes, I feel like there will be some ultimate payout to the reader indicating at least some level of success.

We don't really have anything to indicate whether or not the selection process in the lower planes is based on net evilness or if what direction you are headed in is somehow equally as important or even more so. While this doesn't seem like a world in which deathbed confessions are that significant, Thor's discussion on how faith works does seem to imply that what you are doing/thinking/saying in your final moments has some added weight.

Storywise, it does seem like "where you are at the end" should have a bit more weight than an objective weighing of every portion of your adult life. Consider a paladin who spends 30 years as a good guy and the final 10 years of his or her life as a blackguard. Wouldn't that person be more Abyss-bound than someone who spent 30 years as a bandit and the final 10 years attempting to atone for past evils?

For what we know, your afterlife can only be decided by your aligment in the time of your death. In this case, the blackguard of your example would go to an evil afterlife, while the bandit will go to a neutral or even good one.
This can be more true in ootsverse then other world, as aligments are metaphysical concept where you can't lie. Only if the bandit is honest with himself, he is really neutral or good. If he's faking for fear of a supernatural punishment, he isn't really good. This can be misured every time with the right spell(s).

Or intead afterlifes may be decided by what you did, and in this case, while the blackguard of your example seems directed to the lower planes, the bandit may or may not have done enough to escape his fate and go to a neutral plane.


The conversation between Roy and the Deva, IMHO, seems to go well with some kind of compromise of this way, so we can't be sure. The Deva question Roy's aligment at the time of death, but she also questioned what Roy did in his life to see if he was really lawful and good.
But for me, the true answer is the second, both by Deva's word and by V's story.

[zimmerwald1915]

Since Belkar is a main character whose redemption attempt is being compared somewhat to Miko's failed redemption arc, then, yes, I feel like there will be some ultimate payout to the reader indicating at least some level of success.
Why? There are at least three identifiable redemption arcs being juggled right now: Belkar's, Vaarsuvius's, and Redcloak's. Who says Belkar's is the one most likely to get a "good" ending?

[tomaO2]

Why? There are at least three identifiable redemption arcs being juggled right now: Belkar's, Vaarsuvius's, and Redcloak's. Who says Belkar's is the one most likely to get a "good" ending?

I would say he's the most likely because that's his character arc. Lets all keep in mind that every single member of the OOTS has undergone profound changes to themselves except Beklar. Even him being nice now isn't all that special, because the backer story showed us that he can try and do the right thing. He screwed up and went back to his old ways, but he did make a serious attempt at doing good there.

Roy has dealt with the issues of his father, his brother's death, and has fully embraced his ownership of the Greenhilt sword.
Durkon has dealt with his demons, and been accepted back into dwarven society.
Haley has moved on from only looking out for herself, saved her dad, and admitted to being in love with Elan.
Elan had finally accepted that his family is completely screwed up, and become a competent party member.
Varselous has finally gotten beyond her obsession with arcane power, although it was at an absurdly high cost.

Then Bekler, what has changed about him? Anything? The only thing he's got is this "redemption" arc he's currently on.

I don't know how long he'll live after he's become neutral, but he WILL become neutral before he dies. It would be nonsensical for him to be the only member of the OOTS that doesn't undergo character growth. The Giant is simply not going to do that. The next book should be having a strong focus on his character. Everyone else has gotten a big spotlight except him.

[Peelee]

I don't know how long he'll live after he's become neutral, but he WILL become neutral before he dies. It would be nonsensical for him to be the only member of the OOTS that doesn't undergo character growth.

He's had character growth. He's still having it now. Character growth doesn't necessitate becoming non-evil, though.

[tomaO2]

I didn't say he would become neutral because of character growth.

I said he would become neutral because this is his character ARC.

That's different. Every single member of the OOTS has had a major character arc except him, and there is no reason to think he will not get one as well. It would, in fact, be really disappointing if he didn't. Redcloak is better developed than Beklar, for crying out loud. Why does everyone else get their time to shine while Beklar languishes?

If Rich doesn't do anything with him, I think it's like saying that he just doesn't know what to do, so let's just kill him off. I think he's a better writer than that, as has been shown by the way he has grown so many other characters from their one note initial personalities.

This whole thing is too well telegraphed, and there is nothing else that is showing up as a possible catalyst for change on Beklar. I'm positive that this is going to be his thing.

[Peelee]

I didn't say he would become neutral because of character growth.

I said he would become neutral because this is his character ARC.

Unless his character arc was to go from a one-dimensional character to a three-dimensional character.

[RatElemental]

The deva did say something to Roy that may be pertinent to Belkar's fate: Trying matters.

If this whole apologizing for past misdeeds thing grows into genuine remorse and then into genuine attempts to be a better person, we have it from the mouth of a being made out of lawful goodness that that counts in the whole afterlife thing.

This isn't just some deathbed conversion begging for forgiveness thing we're talking about, Belkar has been telegraphing a change in outlook for a long while now. He's either starting to become the mask, or he's somehow so good at acting like he's turning over a new leaf he managed to fool the audience too.

[Peelee]

The deva did say something to Roy that may be pertinent to Belkar's fate: Trying matters.

If this whole apologizing for past misdeeds thing grows into genuine remorse and then into genuine attempts to be a better person, we have it from the mouth of a being made out of lawful goodness that that counts in the whole afterlife thing.

As far as Celestia goes. I doubt the Abyss would be so picky.

[Prinygod]

The deva did say something to Roy that may be pertinent to Belkar's fate: Trying matters.

If this whole apologizing for past misdeeds thing grows into genuine remorse and then into genuine attempts to be a better person, we have it from the mouth of a being made out of lawful goodness that that counts in the whole afterlife thing.

This isn't just some deathbed conversion begging for forgiveness thing we're talking about, Belkar has been telegraphing a change in outlook for a long while now. He's either starting to become the mask, or he's somehow so good at acting like he's turning over a new leaf he managed to fool the audience too.

The Deva also indicated that had Roy failed to save Elan, after initially abandoning him, he would be tossed into nuetral after life. So while trying matters, the results also matter.

[Fyraltari]

The Deva also indicated that had Roy failed to save Elan, after initially abandoning him, he would be tossed into nuetral after life. So while trying matters, the results also matter.

No, that's backwards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html):

Deva: I'll tell you, if you hadn't gone back, then wether he lived or died, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin, right now.

[Jack Of Rivia]

Prediction.


A Slaad and a Demon will fight for possession over belkar soul. In the end he will be asked to choose, and he ll choose the Abyss.... because he is a sexy shoeless God Of War.

[Prinygod]

No, that's backwards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html):

Deva: I'll tell you, if you hadn't gone back, then wether he lived or died, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin, right now.

Hmm I must have miss read what was said, or I had speculated at the time what would happened if Elan wasn't save and misremembered.

[woweedd]

Im predicting that either he gets unmade by The Snarl...Or, he doesn't, but dies, sacrificing his life to defeat it, in an act of courage and self-sacrifice that would have been unthinkable coming form him at the start of the comic. Last we hear from him, is a scream, coming from the general direction of Limbo, loud enough to permeate dimensions, "Wait, seriously? I've been Chaotic Evil my entire life!"

[Prinygod]

Hmm I must have miss read what was said, or I had speculated at the time what would happened if Elan wasn't save and misremembered.

Although I was wrong about this, thanks for the correction, I am not yet convinced that results don't matter. As evidence as the aforementioned belkar chart, Roy never states that he is trying to reform belkar. In the comics he only prevents belkar from doing evil infront of him. It was the deva itself whom put results before effort thanks to the chart. if Roy was unintentionally bringing belkar on a "murder tour", i suspect the conversation would be different

[NerdyKris]

I would place money on Rich not definitively stating he's been redeemed or not. Either unmade by the Snarl, or we don't see any of the afterlife with Belkar. Same as how we don't know where Miko ended up. Or Therkla. Some things should be left to the reader's interpretation.

[Prinygod]

I would place money on Rich not definitively stating he's been redeemed or not. Either unmade by the Snarl, or we don't see any of the afterlife with Belkar. Same as how we don't know where Miko ended up. Or Therkla. Some things should be left to the reader's interpretation.

He is a main character though, we saw Roy and Durkon in the after life. I think a lot of people would be rightfully mad if he kills off Belkar and doesn't tell us where all this character devolpment lands him in the end.

[RatElemental]

I would place money on Rich not definitively stating he's been redeemed or not. Either unmade by the Snarl, or we don't see any of the afterlife with Belkar. Same as how we don't know where Miko ended up. Or Therkla. Some things should be left to the reader's interpretation.

Pretty sure the giant actually confirmed Therkla's alignment at some point after her death. She'd be somewhere in the outlands since she was true neutral.

[Peelee]

He is a main character though, we saw Roy and Durkon in the after life. I think a lot of people would be rightfully mad if he kills off Belkar and doesn't tell us where all this character devolpment lands him in the end.

To be fair, their afterlives had important consequences. Belkar's may well not.

[Fyraltari]

And there was little doubt where they'd go, wasn't there?

[Prinygod]

To be fair, their afterlives had important consequences. Belkar's may well not.

Not really, Roy's afterlife could have been a cut away panel showing him training with his grandpa, the training result being the few things that will likey have an impact. Infact the ability didn't help all that much when fighting another undead spellcaster, so the jury is still out on how consequential it will be. In fact the story was put on hold so we could be shown what the afterlife was like. Durkon's afterlife may be more consequential, but I am sure Rich could have come up with another way for the party to get important plot information.

[Peelee]

Not really, Roy's afterlife could have been a cut away panel showing him training with his grandpa, the training result being the few things that will likey have an impact. Infact the ability didn't help all that much when fighting another undead spellcaster, so the jury is still out on how consequential it will be. In fact the story was put on hold so we could be shown what the afterlife was like. Durkon's afterlife may be more consequential, but I am sure Rich could have come up with another way for the party to get important plot information.

Roy's afterlife allowed for the time skip, introduced his brother which made him realize the vampire wasn't Durkon, introduced Roy's Archon with the as-yet unfired Checkov's Gun instruction, as well as the spell splinter maneuver (which, I would argue would have more utility against a since than a cleric, since clerics are martial spellcasters and can hit and take hits better than sorcs and wizards). That's a whole lot of utility out of Roy's afterlife.

Not to mention that Roy and Durkon also both came back, and we know Belkar won't.

[Hardcore]

I expect Belkar either get to a chaotic good afterlife, getting unmade by the snarl or turned into a vampire. In order of likeliness.

[Peelee]

I expect Belkar either get to a chaotic good afterlife

I don't think hell get into Neutral territory, but I wouldn't object, pending how events play out. But Good? Have you read the comic?

[Kish]

I expect Belkar either get to a chaotic good afterlife, getting unmade by the snarl or turned into a vampire. In order of likeliness.
Which requires that both Limbo and the Abyss are no higher than fourth and fifth on the list of possibilities. That puzzles me.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not to mention that Roy and Durkon also both came back, it we know Belkar won't be.
We don't, actually. He could be killed and raised a dozen times before his final death :smallamused:

[Peelee]

We don't, actually. He could be killed and raised a dozen times before his final death :smallamused:

I could also win the lottery.

[RatElemental]

We don't, actually. He could be killed and raised a dozen times before his final death :smallamused:

This would explain why it'd be his final death, what with the level loss from being raised and all...

Still not likely.

[Prinygod]

Roy's afterlife allowed for the time skip, introduced his brother which made him realize the vampire wasn't Durkon, introduced Roy's Archon with the as-yet unfired Checkov's Gun instruction, as well as the spell splinter maneuver (which, I would argue would have more utility against a since than a cleric, since clerics are martial spellcasters and can hit and take hits better than sorcs and wizards). That's a whole lot of utility out of Roy's afterlife.

Not to mention that Roy and Durkon also both came back, and we know Belkar won't.

That explains what Roy did in the after life, not why we saw it. Rich could easily did a time jump, with ghost Roy complaining to an unresponsive party member about how he did more dead than they did alive, with accompanying list. Like wise Durkon could have been dead for one comic, and came backthe next, saving the twist with Thor until it was more relevant. In my opinion both of these would be a disservice to the good storytelling and world building that we come to expect, but we would lose out little in plot information. Now Rich could break his own pattern, because he wishes to throw belkar in the dumpster, but I would not blame anyone for getting upset over that decision.

[Rrmcklin]

Not really, Roy's afterlife could have been a cut away panel showing him training with his grandpa, the training result being the few things that will likey have an impact. Infact the ability didn't help all that much when fighting another undead spellcaster, so the jury is still out on how consequential it will be. In fact the story was put on hold so we could be shown what the afterlife was like. Durkon's afterlife may be more consequential, but I am sure Rich could have come up with another way for the party to get important plot information.

The writer can always come up with a number of different ways to deliver any plot related information. It comes with the territory of being in control of the story. That it could have been delivered in a different way doesn't devalue the importance of how it was actually done.

[Nightcanon]

Although I was wrong about this, thanks for the correction, I am not yet convinced that results don't matter. As evidence as the aforementioned belkar chart, Roy never states that he is trying to reform belkar. In the comics he only prevents belkar from doing evil infront of him. It was the deva itself whom put results before effort thanks to the chart. if Roy was unintentionally bringing belkar on a "murder tour", i suspect the conversation would be different

I would characterise Roy's approach to the issue of Belkar as "he wants to kill things, I try to minimise the evil inflicted on the world by ensuring that he is pointed at the bad guys rather than innocents" rather than "I'm only responsible for the evil he does when I'm there".

[Peelee]

That explains what Roy did in the after life, not why we saw it. Rich could easily did a time jump, with ghost Roy complaining to an unresponsive party member about how he did more dead than they did alive, with accompanying list. Like wise Durkon could have been dead for one comic, and came backthe next, saving the twist with Thor until it was more relevant.
Both are examples of telling instead of showing, which is generally regarded as poor writing. Saying that in your opinion it would be a disservice isn't really necessary, because it's a rule of thumb to begin with. Even then, we wouldn't get the emotional connect to Roy's brother by simply being told, which is what lets us understand Roy's emotional response to the vampire. Assuming we'll see Belkar's backstory because we saw them carries the assumption that Belkar will have plot-relevant things happen in his afterlife.

And, yet again, both Durkon and Roy came back, and Belkar won't. Sure, there's the chance he'll die, get rezzed, and then exit the story permanently, but I've got five gold on that not happening, if you're a betting man. Two characters who come back after being dead don't map nearly as well to one who won't.

[Prinygod]

Both are examples of telling instead of showing, which is generally regarded as poor writing. Saying that in your opinion it would be a disservice isn't really necessary, because it's a rule of thumb to begin with. Even then, we wouldn't get the emotional connect to Roy's brother by simply being told, which is what lets us understand Roy's emotional response to the vampire. Assuming we'll see Belkar's backstory because we saw them carries the assumption that Belkar will have plot-relevant things happen in his afterlife.

And, yet again, both Durkon and Roy came back, and Belkar won't. Sure, there's the chance he'll die, get rezzed, and then exit the story permanently, but I've got five gold on that not happening, if you're a betting man. Two characters who come back after being dead don't map nearly as well to one who won't.

Yeah and what better way to show that belkar's character arc mattered more than showing which after life he gets. Also when did I ever said he was going to get raised I denied the necessity of plot imporance in the first place. Not only did you try to make my own point about bad story telling as if I was saying the opposite, but you are making up what I actually said. If plot imporance is "all that matters" Why not just skip all that world building, and tell and not show? If the after life is not important, why include them at all? I did not make any assumptions, you are, and I am pushing back against them.

[Lexible]

I’d agree with that as the most likely possibility.

He’s had a whole life of gleefully killing people for amusement, he’s not going to make any of the Neutral afterlives just from a couple weeks of not doing anything especially evil.

What, like literally saving every living soul in the world?

If V's unintentional* murder of 25% of all back dragons + affiliated offspring & family is enough to shift the elf into evil territory, surely Belkar's intentional work to save not just one species, but literally every living thing in the world is enough to make his evil status ambiguous. Particularly when he has repeatedly turned down offers to join other explicitly evil teams.


* Meaning V had not thought through all the ramifications of who was going to die, so caught up in their power trip were they. V totally intended to murder the hell out of much of black dragonkind.

[Sloanzilla]

Which requires that both Limbo and the Abyss are no higher than fourth and fifth on the list of possibilities. That puzzles me.

Pandemonium gets no love.

[Peelee]

Yeah and what better way to show that belkar's character arc mattered more than showing which after life he gets.

If an author has to hamfistedly justify that a character arc mattered, that author did a poor job of writing the character arc to begin with.

[Fyraltari]

Pandemonium gets no love.

Ain't that the point?

[Prinygod]

If an author has to hamfistedly justify that a character arc mattered, that author did a poor job of writing the character arc to begin with.

Was it ever a question that Roy was going to the lawful good afterlife. Did rich have to "Justify" his entry with the interview, or did he think it would make a good story? Belkar's afterlife could be interesting as well, and I wouldn't bet on it not happening based on plot importance or what happened to npc's, considering we already have 2 good examples of what to expect from PC deaths.

[Prinygod]

I would characterise Roy's approach to the issue of Belkar as "he wants to kill things, I try to minimise the evil inflicted on the world by ensuring that he is pointed at the bad guys rather than innocents" rather than "I'm only responsible for the evil he does when I'm there".

Yeah that's how he tried to justify it, and he did a decent job as well. But while Roy pointed belkar at bad guys, he also killes people that he wouldn't the opportunity otherwise. Sure belkar would have killed other people, and Roy's assertion that no prison could hold him may be correct, but the deva didn't seem to buy it. It was the fact that belkar had killed less, rather than the "right" people, that she filed it under reforming.

[Peelee]

Was it ever a question that Roy was going to the lawful good afterlife. Did rich have to "Justify" his entry with the interview, or did he think it would make a good story?

You're the one arguing that the character arc should be justified, dude. If you want to undercut your own position, be my guest, but I don't know what you expect to get out of it.

Again, we saw Roy's afterlife because it was important to the story. Things happened in it that were important to the story. Same for Durkon. Again, both came back with information they got in the afterlife that is (this far only foreshadowed to be) important to the overall story. And, again, it's incredibly unlikely any of those will be apply with Belkar's afterlife, largely because he's not coming back. Every time this argument pops up, it's always supported by little more than the proponent thinking it would be interesting. I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise so far this time as well.

My money is on the closest we'll ever get on that is the Protection from Evil amulet not hurting Belkar, if even that.

[Fyraltari]

You're the one arguing that the character arc should be justified, dude. If you want to undercut your own position, be my guest, but I don't know what you expect to get out of it.

Again, we saw Roy's afterlife because it was important to the story. Things happened in it that were important to the story. Same for Durkon. Again, both came back with information they got in the afterlife that is (this far only foreshadowed to be) important to the overall story. And, again, it's incredibly unlikely any of those will be apply with Belkar's afterlife, largely because he's not coming back. Every time this argument pops up, it's always supported by little more than the proponent thinking it would be interesting. I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise so far this time as well.

My money is on the closest we'll ever get on that is the Protection from Evil amulet not hurting Belkar, if even that.

It could be a conclusion to Belkar's arc. Or serve as a joke. Or deliver a point about redemption.

There's no reason to assume we won't see it or that we will.

Also, the question of wether it would serve the plot (as in information and foreshadowing) is irrelevant, It hink character interactions and development are what's important.

[Peelee]

It could be a conclusion to Belkar's arc. Or serve as a joke. Or deliver a point about redemption.

There's no reason to assume we won't see it or that we will.
True. However, I think redemption is going to be V's arc and not Belkar's, and I doubt it'll serve as a conclusion or joke (purely a gamble on my part here).

Also, the question of wether it would serve the plot (as in information and foreshadowing) is irrelevant, It hink character interactions and development are what's important.

Given that there'll very likely be no character interactions with Belkar's soul and we know he can't develop while dead, I stick by my bet.

[Fyraltari]

True. However, I think redemption is going to be V's arc and not Belkar's, and I doubt it'll serve as a conclusion or joke (purely a gamble on my part here).
I'm betting on some kind of V/Belkar contrast myself.

Given that there'll very likely be no character interactions with Belkar's soul
That rather depends on who else is dead and there. No shortage of chaotic characters in this comic.

and we know he can't develop while dead, I stick by my bet.
Ah sure but they would probably be a Deva (or whatever) induced conclusion to his development is all I'm saying.

Besides that's not entirely true. Roy gave up on getting Eugene's approval in the Afterlife.
Yes I know on Cloudplane not Clelestia, that's why I said not entirely, besides if you're somewhere and you're dead then it's an Afterlife even if it's just a waiting room.

[Rrmcklin]

What, like literally saving every living soul in the world?

If V's unintentional* murder of 25% of all back dragons + affiliated offspring & family is enough to shift the elf into evil territory, surely Belkar's intentional work to save not just one species, but literally every living thing in the world is enough to make his evil status ambiguous. Particularly when he has repeatedly turned down offers to join other explicitly evil teams.


* Meaning V had not thought through all the ramifications of who was going to die, so caught up in their power trip were they. V totally intended to murder the hell out of much of black dragonkind.

Belkar is not trying to save literally every living thing in the world; Belkar is trying to save Belkar. That saving the world also happens to help others says nothing about his morality.

This has been addressed during Azure City - Belkar is willing to help the good guys if he thinks it's in his best interest and to continue doing evil. And while Belkar is somewhat different from then, acting as if he's had some unambiguous turn around is completely unsupported.

As I have apparently have to continue saying, we've seen that his Protection from Evil charm continues to hurt him; that means he's still Evil as far as the story is concerned. Whether you agree with the story on whether he's still evil or not is a different matter, but that is what the story is saying.

As far as bringing up V - between Good and Evil, one is much harder to be than the other, guess which one?

[Peelee]

That rather depends on who else is dead and there. No shortage of chaotic characters in this comic.

Ah sure but they would probably be a Deva (or whatever) induced conclusion to his development is all I'm saying.

Care to take the wager, then? :smallamused:

[Fyraltari]

Care to take the wager, then? :smallamused:

Not really, I can see it go both ways.

[Peelee]

Not really, I can see it go both ways.

So can I, but wheres the fun in fence-sitting?

[Fyraltari]

Well, if you put it like that, I'm in then.

[Lexible]

As I have apparently have to continue saying, we've seen that his Protection from Evil charm continues to hurt him; that means he's still Evil as far as the story is concerned. Whether you agree with the story on whether he's still evil or not is a different matter, but that is what the story is saying.

Thoughtful! Two comments:

The ambiguity I raised was as regards the OP wrt degree of evilness, not qualitatively evil in the nine alignments sense. In general, I have tended to view Belkar as CE within that framework. However...

Second point: I place 100 quatloos on Belkar's quizzical look being about not tripping the big protection from evil glyph at the sanctum's front door. I read his qualitative alignment as shifting.

[Caerulea]

Second point: I place 100 quatloos on Belkar's quizzical look being about not tripping the big protection from evil glyph at the sanctum's front door. I read his qualitative alignment as shifting.
I'll take that. Need to make my money back (to purchase Peelee's cookie) somehow.

[Prinygod]

You're the one arguing that the character arc should be justified, dude. If you want to undercut your own position, be my guest, but I don't know what you expect to get out of it.

Again, we saw Roy's afterlife because it was important to the story. Things happened in it that were important to the story. Same for Durkon. Again, both came back with information they got in the afterlife that is (this far only foreshadowed to be) important to the overall story. And, again, it's incredibly unlikely any of those will be apply with Belkar's afterlife, largely because he's not coming back. Every time this argument pops up, it's always supported by little more than the proponent thinking it would be interesting. I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise so far this time as well.

My money is on the closest we'll ever get on that is the Protection from Evil amulet not hurting Belkar, if even that.

No I said it would show the conclusion of his arc. You were the one who said rich would only show the afterlife to justify the arc. Do you have anything to add other than strawmen.

By the way how would you know belkar's death isn't important to the storyline when
1. It hasn't happened yet
2. Large portion of the story so far has happened in the afterlife or in other planes With gods and demons alike

You brought up the argument, you have to support it, not I. Pull out your crystal ball and show your work.

[Peelee]

Well, if you put it like that, I'm in then.
Hooray! Pushing off fences is fun.

I place 100 quatloos on Belkar's quizzical look being about not tripping the big protection from evil glyph at the sanctum's front door. I read his qualitative alignment as shifting.

Bet taken!

No I said it would show the conclusion of his arc. You were the one who said rich would only show the afterlife to justify the arc.


Yeah and what better way to show that belkar's character arc mattered more than showing which after life he gets.
Oh hey look you arguing that it would justify the arc. Have fun with that, dude.

[Prinygod]

Hooray! Pushing off fences is fun.


Bet taken!



Oh hey look you arguing that it would justify the arc. Have fun with that, dude.

Oh hey another strawman rather than an actual argument.

[Fyraltari]

Hooray! Pushing off fences is fun.
Nah, it's work, plus I need that fence where it is so I practice fencing. I'll get off of it, still.

[Rrmcklin]

Thoughtful! Two comments:

The ambiguity I raised was as regards the OP wrt degree of evilness, not qualitatively evil in the nine alignments sense. In general, I have tended to view Belkar as CE within that framework. However...

Second point: I place 100 quatloos on Belkar's quizzical look being about not tripping the big protection from evil glyph at the sanctum's front door. I read his qualitative alignment as shifting.

Alignment shifting is not the same thing as having shifted. I don't know what has happened in the minutes since we've seen his charm active, that would mean he'd no longer affect other things that register Evil.

[KorvinStarmast]

In the end he will be asked to choose, and he ll choose the Abyss.... because he is a sexy shoeless God Of War. that fits who Belkar is so far.

[Edreyn]

Why everyone is so sure that Belkar will die? It's never been said that he will die, only some hints about last breath or pensioner fund.
You know what I thought about when I read the phrase "will draw his last breath ever"? That there is weapon called "Last Breath Ever" and Belkar will unsheathe it. Same can be applied to all other hints.

[Peelee]

Why everyone is so sure that Belkar will die? It's never been said that he will die, only some hints about last breath or pensioner fund.
You know what I thought about when I read the phrase "will draw his last breath ever"? That there is weapon called "Last Breath Ever" and Belkar will unsheathe it. Same can be applied to all other hints.

And the Oracle would derive pleasure from all this because....?

[RatElemental]

Seen theories Belkar would get vamped and theories that Belkar would ascend to godhood, but a theory that Belkar would draw a weapon entitled "his last breath, ever" is a new one.

The theory about him turning into a god has more of a leg to stand on than that one, I think, and that's saying something.

[Peelee]

Seen theories Belkar would get vamped and theories that Belkar would ascend to godhood, but a theory that Belkar would draw a weapon entitled "his last breath, ever" is a new one.

Oh, to be young again. And also a robot.

Just wait until you hear the theory that he will draw a painting titled "his last breath ever."

[Edreyn]

he will draw a painting titled "his last breath ever."

This one is even better! :smallbiggrin:

[Haluesen]

Why everyone is so sure that Belkar will die? It's never been said that he will die, only some hints about last breath or pensioner fund.
You know what I thought about when I read the phrase "will draw his last breath ever"? That there is weapon called "Last Breath Ever" and Belkar will unsheathe it. Same can be applied to all other hints.

I myself wouldn't say that I'm "sure" not until we see it in the comic. But I feel pretty confident that he will end up dying for real.

1. The other phrases the Oracle has said tied to the end of Belkar don't seem to point at anything like "drawing" a weapon, or an artwork. "Savor his last birthday cake" makes it seem like there won't be any more cake for him to enjoy. And that being just because of him not eating cake from that day forward sounds too anticlimactic.
2. Past prophesies did have strange ways that they worked out, like with "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" and "right four words at the right time for the wrong reasons". So it makes sense that we would have a more straightforward one at some point.
3. We already did the vampire thing with a major character. And Belkar, a god? Hahaha no. No one believes in him that much.

So I think it is likely that Belkar will truly die by the end of the in-comic year.

[Rrmcklin]

Also, hasn't Rich flat out said that, no, there isn't going to be some crazy loophole abuse and he's really just going to die and not come back?

I'm certain I've seen that, but I don't know where.

[Edreyn]

Any chance that there are all prophecies about Belkar's death assembled in one place?
Tracking through whole comic won't be easy.

And if we see them all together, maybe we can find a "loophole".

It's a comic after all, we can do it just for fun. For comparison, how many theories about MitD are out there?

[Fyraltari]

Any chance that there are all prophecies about Belkar's death assembled in one place?
Tracking through whole comic won't be easy.

And if we see them all together, maybe we can find a "loophole".

It's a comic after all, we can do it just for fun. For comparison, how many theories about MitD are out there?

Yeah but we know there’s a solution to that one. So far nobody seems to have found a Belkar-loophole and the only argument in favor of there being one is that it would be twist, which isn’t really convincing.

[Lange]

Alignment shifting is not the same thing as having shifted. I don't know what has happened in the minutes since we've seen his charm active, that would mean he'd no longer affect other things that register Evil.
I've got to wonder: what does actually cause him to register as evil? We've seen before that magical means to determine alignment are notoriously unreliable (Miko and the crown). Perhaps the magic of the runes (or the clasp) judge a person purely by their current state of mind. And in that regard, a lot has changed for Belkar just now: he went from justifying his cynical outlook (to Minrah) to trying to justify an empathetic one. So perhaps, in a mechanical sense, Belkar has indeed stopped being evil. It figures whoever gets to decide upon that in the afterlife will look at the sum of his deeds and say hell naaw, but that's precisely why these things include examination beyond a single casting of sense alignment.

[Synesthesy]

And the Oracle would derive pleasure from all this because....?

He is a ****? It's not the first time he did something against our heroes.

[hroþila]

He is a ****? It's not the first time he did something against our heroes.
I mean, yes, he is a [whatever that censored word actually was], but the point is, how does he derive pleasure from this? Belkar doesn't remember it, and Roy doesn't care. How does this prophecy harm our heroes in any way?

[Peelee]

He is a ****? It's not the first time he did something against our heroes.
I mean, yes, he is a [whatever that censored word actually was], but the point is, how does he derive pleasure from this? Belkar doesn't remember it, and Roy doesn't care. How does this prophecy harm our heroes in any way?

Exactly. It doesn't track. He's a ****, so what? Even when Belkar is still in the Sunken Valley and can remember it, it's not like he is put off at all. The Oracle may as well be getting off on blueberry pies for all the sense that makes.

Any chance that there are all prophecies about Belkar's death assembled in one place?
Tracking through whole comic won't be easy.

And if we see them all together, maybe we can find a "loophole".

I'll give you them all right now. He's not long for this world, he should savor his next birthday cake, he shouldn't bother finding his IRA, and he will draw his last breath ever before the end of the year. Simple.

[Edreyn]

I'll give you them all right now. He's not long for this world, he should savor his next birthday cake, he shouldn't bother finding his IRA, and he will draw his last breath ever before the end of the year. Simple.

Thanks. So, he never said the word "die".

I can't make up a joke about all of those right now, but I'll think of something.

[Peelee]

Thanks. So, he never said the word "die".

Since death can be reversed (see Roy and Durkon, for example), "last breath ever" seems much more permanent.

[Edreyn]

Something about savoring the cake.

From google English to English translation.

Definitions of savor

1) taste (good food or drink) and enjoy it completely.
"gourmets will want to savor our game specialties"
2) have a suggestion or trace of (something, especially something bad).
"their genuflections savored of superstition and popery"

Maybe the author wants us to think that phrase means that Belkar should enjoy his last cake in life, but instead the phrase means that Belkar should prepare for some kind of danger coming from the cake.

And I already said that "last breath ever" might not be literal.

[Dr.Zero]

Since the first time the protection from evil brooch was introduced, I stated his end was going to be: "Why it... doens't hurt me... anymore...? X_X" after some heroic sacrifice.

(Ok, I hoped for some kind of revenant version of him too, but aside that...)

Now I add more. He will be the only one to manage to live (after-live, actually) his dream exactly as he dreamed it: he will spend the afterlife cooking for Lord Shojo and Mr. Scruffy, finally being free to practice the only other skill set he has.

[Peelee]

Something about savoring the cake.

From google English to English translation.

Definitions of savor

1) taste (good food or drink) and enjoy it completely.
"gourmets will want to savor our game specialties"
2) have a suggestion or trace of (something, especially something bad).
"their genuflections savored of superstition and popery"

Maybe the author wants us to think that phrase means that Belkar should enjoy his last cake in life, but instead the phrase means that Belkar should prepare for some kind of danger coming from the cake.

And I already said that "last breath ever" might not be literal.

Yes, I'm aware of your theory. I just wanted to let you know why saying the word "die" wouldn't carry as much weight as you think. Also, if you want to consider every prophecy to refer to different and unrelated things, we're back to "why would the Oracle derive pleasure from all this?" Again, Belkar isn't perturbed when he hears it, forgets when he leaves the SV, and Roy doesn't particularly care.

[hroþila]

Exactly. It doesn't track. He's a ****, so what? Even when Belkar is still in the Sunken Valley and can remember it, it's not like he is put off at all. The Oracle may as well be getting off on blueberry pies for all the sense that makes.
Funnily enough, I could kinda sorta see a way the prophecy would help the Order: it helps Roy rationalize not dealing with Belkar in a more active and direct way, which might be important if Belkar ends up being crucial to defeat Xykon.

[Kish]

Why everyone is so sure that Belkar will die? It's never been said that he will die, only some hints about last breath or pensioner fund.
You know what I thought about when I read the phrase "will draw his last breath ever"? That there is weapon called "Last Breath Ever" and Belkar will unsheathe it. Same can be applied to all other hints.
The Oracle also said that what he was about to say was the same as he'd said previously. So it doesn't explain what's in the comic if you find four separate, unrelated dodges that "Belkar Bitterleaf will draw his last breath ever," "he's not long for the world," "the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA," and "he should savor his next birthday cake" point to--they'd all need to point to the same dodge.

[Brumagris]

What are the shots of reincarnation for Belkar?

He is currently undergoing alignment change (I wont discuss whether he is still evil or not), he may die in a climatic battle/act of heroism which would truncate his evolution. I dont know in D&D mechanics, but I would see plausible that a thankful god decides to give him a second chance in the world as a complete new person, so he gets a true chance to finalize his alignment change. The prophecy does not discard this, does it?

[Peelee]

What are the shots of reincarnation for Belkar?

He is currently undergoing alignment change (I wont discuss whether he is still evil or not), he may die in a climatic battle/act of heroism which would truncate his evolution. I dont know in D&D mechanics, but I would see plausible that a thankful god decides to give him a second chance in the world as a complete new person, so he gets a true chance to finalize his alignment change. The prophecy does not discard this, does it?

I would agree that a completely different person would not be Belkar, yes. I fail to see the appeal in having him be replaced by a completely different person, of course.

[RatElemental]

I would agree that a completely different person would not be Belkar, yes. I fail to see the appeal in having him be replaced by a completely different person, of course.

This is DND we're talking about where there actually is a spell that does exactly this. It'd be a different body, but the same soul. Whether or not that constitutes a "completely different person" is its own debate.

[Kish]

There's never been any indication that reincarnation is a thing that can happen in the OotS universe, other than the kind caused by a druid spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) which would leave Belkar, whatever his species, still Belkar. It's not one of the possibilities Roy mentioned in panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html).

[Peelee]

This is DND we're talking about where there actually is a spell that does exactly this. It'd be a different body, but the same soul. Whether or not that constitutes a "completely different person" is its own debate.

I doubt I could put it any better than Kish did. By the spell, it'd still be Belkar, so it wouldn't be his last breath ever.

[Dr.Zero]

I'd like for Belkar to cheat death, and some explanations here are nice (I loved the "draws his weapon named Last Breath Ever", even because that sounds to me totally as a name B could give to a weapon).

But, realistically: the oracle broke the fourth wall to reassure the readers about the event not happening before the in-comic year has passed.
Making a character lie -or be ambiguously honest a la Tarquin- is one thing, making it break the 4th wall to reassure the readers about the lie is completely another, since it implicitly confirms the sentence. Then changing idea would be like if the author misled the readers and would be like cheating: incredibly cheap.

So I don't think B will survive.

[tomaO2]

I've seen stories that have prophets that specifically made a prediction in order to make what was predicted come about. Beklar stabbed that kobloid dead, he holds a grudge. He also knew that Beklar would be getting killed by the end of the year. Therefore, he made a prediction so that Roy wouldn't bother raising Beklar after he got killed.

We saw this work in that alternate reality where every single party member just dropped Beklar like trash after he got killed. they could have raised him, but the halfling was evil, and was going to die before the end of the year anyway, so no one cared.

What I find more interesting in the prediction was the passphrase "evolve or die" I believe that this is foreshadowing that if Beklar doesn't evolve his morality, and transition from evil to neutral, then no one will be willing to raise him when he dies. Beckler's shift in morality is the thing that will wind up saving him in the end. Certainly, Durkon is far more likely at this point to raise him if Beklar dies. I also think that the other dwarf might have a role to play in saving Beklar once she also gets raised.

Regardless, I do think that becoming neutral is his character arc. Every other member has been given a full story arc, it's Beklar's turn.

[KorvinStarmast]

Every other member has been given a full story arc, it's Beklar's turn. [/FONT] Given the line Rich seems to take with good and evil, his arc can end with "Belkar in the Abyss because he earned it from a life of raw and unrepentant evil" since consequences are a theme in this strip.

While I was holding out for his end being the "Sexy Shoeless God of War" somewhere in the infernal levels of the afterlife, I just noticed a small detail. It was after Belkar answered dream Shojo with "I am a sexy shoeless god of war" that the cleric's keyword get his curse lifted: evolve or die.
Given that sequence, maybe Belkar has to evolve out of being the Sexy Shoeless God of War, and into something else.

What else? Besides chef, cat's best buddy, and poster boy for heavy metal albums when astride Bloodfeast, I am not sure.

[Rrmcklin]

I still find the irony of the situation funny: you have people desperately trying to argue the obvious implied permanency of Belkar's death isn't going to happen, while on the opposite front you had people arguing that Durkon was definitely going to stay dead long past the point where it was obvious that wasn't going to be the case.

I assume the two groups aren't mostly the same people, but still. Was this how it was way back when the comic hadn't explicitly said that Belkar was Chaotic Evil so you had a bunch of people arguing he was actually Chaotic Neutral?


I've got to wonder: what does actually cause him to register as evil? We've seen before that magical means to determine alignment are notoriously unreliable (Miko and the crown). Perhaps the magic of the runes (or the clasp) judge a person purely by their current state of mind. And in that regard, a lot has changed for Belkar just now: he went from justifying his cynical outlook (to Minrah) to trying to justify an empathetic one. So perhaps, in a mechanical sense, Belkar has indeed stopped being evil. It figures whoever gets to decide upon that in the afterlife will look at the sum of his deeds and say hell naaw, but that's precisely why these things include examination beyond a single casting of sense alignment.

You're one example doesn't make things "notoriously unreliable"? More to the point, that clasp hurting him was done to even further establish something we already knew: Belkar is Evil? Maybe before he dies he'll get to a point where it wont hurt him (though I wouldn't count on it) but what point is there in arguing "nope, it's just wrong" right now? What do you get out of making this rationalization we have no proof for?

[Lange]

The clasp was then, the glyphs are now (we don't know if they're really protection against evil). Besides I didn't say he wasn't evil. I just drafted an argument why some simple magic might not recognize him as evil.
Matter of fact, I too think such a sign would be too quick (plus it cheapens the clasp reveal), but a similar argument could be made for the clasp to not hurt him any more, long before he actually atones for his crimes in any meaningful way.

[RatElemental]

You're one example doesn't make things "notoriously unreliable"? More to the point, that clasp hurting him was done to even further establish something we already knew: Belkar is Evil? Maybe before he dies he'll get to a point where it wont hurt him (though I wouldn't count on it) but what point is there in arguing "nope, it's just wrong" right now? What do you get out of making this rationalization we have no proof for?

Maybe not 'notoriously' unreliable, but detect evil has a lot of ways to fool it into giving either a false positive or false negative.

[Rrmcklin]

The clasp was then, the glyphs are now (we don't know if they're really protection against evil). Besides I didn't say he wasn't evil. I just drafted an argument why some simple magic might not recognize him as evil.
Matter of fact, I too think such a sign would be too quick (plus it cheapens the clasp reveal), but a similar argument could be made for the clasp to not hurt him any more, long before he actually atones for his crimes in any meaningful way.

Since we saw the clasp react to him not to long ago, the simplest explanation is the glyphs don't react to evil. No argument is necessary for that.

Point of order, I'd disagree with an argument about him stop pinging evil, even before trying to atone for his crimes would be inherently cheap; Neutral does not have a high bar - it's just that Belkar has set things really low. So I can totally see him stopping being actively evil, and thus no longer hurt by the clasp, before he ever starts contemplating trying to atone for anything he's done. Though it's most likely a moot point, because it's doubtful he'll have time for any of that.


Maybe not 'notoriously' unreliable, but detect evil has a lot of ways to fool it into giving either a false positive or false negative.

Perhaps, but as far as I'm aware "Protection from Evil hurts the wearer if they're Evil" is something Rich himself made up. I don't really see the point in doing that unless it was supposed to signify something, and thus don't get the point of trying to argue against that.

[skaddix]

I could see Belkar making Chaotic Neutral afterlife yeah he was a monster but he is also saving the world so I mean that could cancel out his evil.

[zimmerwald1915]

I could see Belkar making Chaotic Neutral afterlife yeah he was a monster but he is also saving the world so I mean that could cancel out his evil.
Why? Saving the world has a significant self-interested component.

[RatElemental]

Why? Saving the world has a significant self-interested component.

With his WBL Belkar probably could get some method of plane shifting. Maybe hunker down in Sigil, or one of the permanent settlements in one of the quasi-elemental planes of some kind of food.

[zimmerwald1915]

With his WBL Belkar probably could get some method of plane shifting. Maybe hunker down in Sigil, or one of the permanent settlements in one of the quasi-elemental planes of some kind of food.
WBL is a guideline for creation of characters above 1st-level, and to what characters who advance past 1st level "should" have. It does not by any means describe any particular character's actual wealth. Belkar's wealth in particular is bound up in magic weapons and items, none of which offer the ability to plane shift. He would need to liquidate them or barter to be able to puchase such an item - if one existed that he could use (so no scrolls or staves) and he could find a seller. Or he could murder the putative seller and take the item for himself, but then WBL has ceased utterly to matter.

[Peelee]

With his WBL Belkar probably could get some method of plane shifting. Maybe hunker down in Sigil, or one of the permanent settlements in one of the quasi-elemental planes of some kind of food.

What he can do and what he wants to do are different things. If he wanted to go live in Sigil, nothings stopping him. He wants to hang out on the Material Plane. If Xykon doesn't want the world destroyed because some of his best evilness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) took place there, why would Belkar feel ant different?

[RatElemental]

WBL is a guideline for creation of characters above 1st-level, and to what characters who advance past 1st level "should" have. It does not by any means describe any particular character's actual wealth. Belkar's wealth in particular is bound up in magic weapons and items, none of which offer the ability to plane shift. He would need to liquidate them or barter to be able to puchase such an item - if one existed that he could use (so no scrolls or staves) and he could find a seller. Or he could murder the putative seller and take the item for himself, but then WBL has ceased utterly to matter.

I was including hiring a spellcaster to do it as a possible method, he doesn't need to be able to do it again unless the plane he goes to is also in danger. It'd only cost like, 2k, well under the price listed as being "generally unavailable."

True he might have to sell some stuff, but to someone with few connections on the material plane who was entirely self interested and is aware of the existence of other planes, the 'gtfo' card makes more sense than the 'risk my life saving this joint' card.

[woweedd]

I was including hiring a spellcaster to do it as a possible method, he doesn't need to be able to do it again unless the plane he goes to is also in danger. It'd only cost like, 1700, well under the price listed as being "generally unavailable."

True he might have to sell some stuff, but to someone with few connections on the material plane who was entirely self interested and is aware of the existence of other planes, the 'gtfo' card makes more sense than the 'risk my life saving this joint' card.
Just because he's Evil doesn't mean he can't do actions that benefit anyone other then himself. Saving a world is Good: Saving a world that yup live in, and wish to keep living in? Not so much.

[Peelee]

Just because he's Evil doesn't mean he can't do actions that benefit anyone other then himself. Saving a world is Good: Saving a world that yup live in, and wish to keep living in? Not so much.

Indeed. If my apartment is on fire and I put it out, I did it because I like living there. That it happened to help other people in their apartments is a completely irrelevant byproduct.

[tomaO2]

Indeed. If my apartment is on fire and I put it out, I did it because I like living there. That it happened to help other people in their apartments is a completely irrelevant byproduct.

On the other hand, YOU were the one that put it out. There are over a hundred tenants in that apartment complex, and they did jack to stop the fire. They went outside and hoped for someone else to do the hard work. The amount of help the Order is getting is nothing when you think about the stakes involved. Where are all the good people that are willing to help out the heroes. Where are all the evil people, like Elan's dad, that decide that they need to help out for the greater evil? Hell, even the crew of that airship got issues with traveling with the Order, even though they were told to help out.

On top of that, I think you guys are forgetting that Bekar is going to be dead before the year is up, apparently. If he dies before the world is snarled, then it doesn't really benefit him personally. The most evil thing he could do is just decide to screw it, go life it up for the next few months, and then laugh at the world as it is destroyed, while he is sitting pretty in the afterlife.

[Peelee]

On the other hand, YOU were the one that put it out. There are over a hundred tenants in that apartment complex, and they did jack to stop the fire.

Virtually nobody else even knew about the fire. Maybe one neighbor, but so far as she knows the fire alarm is faulty and always going off and it's always been because of burning something in the oven. Plus, I don't even care about anyone else. 9ve even evicted a bunch.

[zimmerwald1915]

Virtually nobody else even knew about the fire. Maybe one neighbor, but so far as she knows the fire alarm is faulty and always going off and it's always been because of burning something in the oven. Plus, I don't even care about anyone else. 9ve even evicted a bunch.
If you're the landlord in this scenario, then saving the building actually becomes more Good than it otherwise would be. If it burned down, you would get paid by the fire insurance company at above fair market value, and you would then get to sell the land to developers, at a premium because it comes pre-demolished and without the need to obey pesky tenant-rehousing laws. Saving the building is a personal sacrifice on your part, when you consider the opportunity cost.

[Peelee]

If you're the landlord in this scenario

Nope, illegal evictions. In this very-tortured-by-now metaphor, that's Belkar killing people.

[tomaO2]

Beklar USED to be a person that didn't care about anyone else, but he's different now. He's learning empathy. Even if all he cares about is his cat, if he is thinking to himself that he wants to make sure that cat has a happy life, and not get snarled, then it's a good (edit: or neutral, if you wanna nitpick) act.

[Rrmcklin]

Beklar USED to be a person that didn't care about anyone else, but he's different now. He's learning empathy. Even if all he cares about is his cat, if he is thinking to himself that he wants to make sure that cat has a happy life, and not get snarled, then it's a good act.

No it isn't, it's neutral. The ability to have loved ones, and care about their well-being is not inherently good.

[hamishspence]

It's not tied to a good alignment (plenty of Evil characters have loved ones) but it's good in itself.

A person forbidden from committing any good act, cannot make a personal sacrifice, not even for a loved one. On a fundamental level, they can't love at all, because love is defined by that willingness to make personal sacrifices.

Very few Evil characters have that kind of "may not commit any good acts of any kind" limitation though. Paladins of Tyranny and Paladins of Slaughter (both from Unearthed Arcana) are about the only ones. Even characters with Vile feats/prestige classes, from BoVD, are not limited that way.

[hroþila]

While personally I do think that saving the world should count for something even if you benefit from it too (because you could easily step aside and let someone else put their neck on the line), I'm not sure what Belkar is doing qualifies. Yes, he's aware that they're on a quest to save the world, but to me he mostly seems to be going with the motions and doing it because he has nothing better to do, i. e. he's trying to save the world because he's in the Order, he's not in the Order because he wants to save the world. If he was given a feasible way out, and with the Order out of the picture, I'm not sure at all he wouldn't take it.

[Fyraltari]

While personally I do think that saving the world should count for something even if you benefit from it too (because you could easily step aside and let someone else put their neck on the line), I'm not sure what Belkar is doing qualifies. Yes, he's aware that they're on a quest to save the world, but to me he mostly seems to be going with the motions and doing it because he has nothing better to do, i. e. he's trying to save the world because he's in the Order, he's not in the Order because he wants to save the world. If he was given a feasible way out, and with the Order out of the picture, I'm not sure at all he wouldn't take it.
Case in point. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html)

[RatElemental]

While personally I do think that saving the world should count for something even if you benefit from it too (because you could easily step aside and let someone else put their neck on the line), I'm not sure what Belkar is doing qualifies. Yes, he's aware that they're on a quest to save the world, but to me he mostly seems to be going with the motions and doing it because he has nothing better to do, i. e. he's trying to save the world because he's in the Order, he's not in the Order because he wants to save the world. If he was given a feasible way out, and with the Order out of the picture, I'm not sure at all he wouldn't take it.

As pointed out, Belkar is aware of the existence of other planes as he has been to another plane before. The feasible way out would be him walking into a large city, heading to the biggest temple there, and offering any cleric who can a large pile of gold to take him to the semi-elemental plane of beef stew or something. Only takes a 9th level cleric.

I really don't think we can totally discount wanting to stick with the order as a purely selfish act, at least not anymore. It probably has that as a component to it, but I don't think it's the whole story.

[hroþila]

Case in point. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html)
Well, yes, but I do think things changed after his MoJ vision. He will stick with the Order now ("it's a whole thing"), so I can only see him bolting if the Order is out of the picture (I imagine he would say something like how "dumb" it was for him to get invested and that he should have walked ages ago, screw the world).

As pointed out, Belkar is aware of the existence of other planes as he has been to another plane before. The feasible way out would be him walking into a large city, heading to the biggest temple there, and offering any cleric who can a large pile of gold to take him to the semi-elemental plane of beef stew or something. Only takes a 9th level cleric.

I really don't think we can totally discount wanting to stick with the order as a purely selfish act, at least not anymore. It probably has that as a component to it, but I don't think it's the whole story.
That would take a lot of planning for Belkar (plus it would require accessing services we haven't seen offered in the OotS world). A feasible way out for him would have to be easy and immediately accessible.

[woweedd]

While personally I do think that saving the world should count for something even if you benefit from it too (because you could easily step aside and let someone else put their neck on the line), I'm not sure what Belkar is doing qualifies. Yes, he's aware that they're on a quest to save the world, but to me he mostly seems to be going with the motions and doing it because he has nothing better to do, i. e. he's trying to save the world because he's in the Order, he's not in the Order because he wants to save the world. If he was given a feasible way out, and with the Order out of the picture, I'm not sure at all he wouldn't take it.
He was offered by Tsukino, and was only kept from taking the offer because his own inability towards long-term planning led him to attack her out of boredom. Point being, he totally would have sided with XYkon, if it weren't his terminally-low Wisdom rendering him incapable of thinking things through.

[RatElemental]

That would take a lot of planning for Belkar (plus it would require accessing services we haven't seen offered in the OotS world). A feasible way out for him would have to be easy and immediately accessible.

We did see Roy and Greg shopping around for just such a service in Tinkertown, though, and Sigdi essentially paid for the dinner partiers to be raised with the temple apparently waiving the usual additional fee. Not to mention the whole business with it being possible to get regenerate cast on you if you can afford the right 'donation' for it. It's quite common in DND for spellcasters to offer their spellcasting services for hire and there are even guidelines on what the 'market value' of hiring a spellcaster to cast a spell would be.

[hroþila]

He was offered by Tsukino, and was only kept from taking the offer because his own inability towards long-term planning led him to attack her out of boredom. Point being, he totally would have sided with XYkon, if it weren't his terminally-low Wisdom rendering him incapable of thinking things through.
Again, that was pre-MoJ vision.

We did see Roy and Greg shopping around for just such a service in Tinkertown, though, and Sigdi essentially paid for the dinner partiers to be raised with the temple apparently waiving the usual additional fee. Not to mention the whole business with it being possible to get regenerate cast on you if you can afford the right 'donation' for it. It's quite common in DND for spellcasters to offer their spellcasting services for hire and there are even guidelines on what the 'market value' of hiring a spellcaster to cast a spell would be.
We haven't seen them getting plane shifting services specifically is what I meant.

[Kish]

I think "they could leave the world forever!" is vastly overplayed. The difference between "I'm obliterated" and "I'm stuck in the Semi-Elemental Plane of Beef Stew for all eternity" is not unambiguously in favor of the latter being preferable.

[RatElemental]

We haven't seen them getting plane shifting services specifically is what I meant.

I fail to see what the difference between getting a cleric to cast a fifth level spell for you (raise dead) and getting a cleric to cast a fifth level spell for you (plane shift) would be.


I think "they could leave the world forever!" is vastly overplayed. The difference between "I'm obliterated" and "I'm stuck in the Semi-Elemental Plane of Beef Stew for all eternity" is not unambiguously in favor of the latter being preferable.

Not really for eternity. You'd still age unless it was a timeless plane (iirc). Besides, there are apparently permanent settlements you could settle in and if you get fed up with being there you can go off adventuring for a gate to somewhere else or an outsider capable of planar travel you can do a favor for.

[hroþila]

I fail to see what the difference between getting a cleric to cast a fifth level spell for you (raise dead) and getting a cleric to cast a fifth level spell for you (plane shift) would be.
I didn't say there's a big difference. I didn't say I'd find it surprising at all if that was a perfectly standard service offered at temples. I said (in a parenthetical statement which wasn't the main point) that we haven't seen it. I would expect those services to be available, but I can think of reasons a worldbuilder or DM might decide that they aren't, and ways to justify it in-universe.

[Prinygod]

I didn't say there's a big difference. I didn't say I'd find it surprising at all if that was a perfectly standard service offered at temples. I said (in a parenthetical statement which wasn't the main point) that we haven't seen it. I would expect those services to be available, but I can think of reasons a worldbuilder or DM might decide that they aren't, and ways to justify it in-universe.

So even though we seen plane shift, and we seen hiering spellcasting, because we have not seen someone hiering a planeshift we should assume there is a rule preventing it?

[Prinygod]

No it isn't, it's neutral. The ability to have loved ones, and care about their well-being is not inherently good.

"But what if a dm rules it is evil to have loved ones, we cannot assume it nuetral because we have no in comic confirmation." See how ridiculous it becomes if we use hroþila's standard of proof.

[hroþila]

So even though we seen plane shift, and we seen hiering spellcasting, because we have not seen someone hiering a planeshift we should assume there is a rule preventing it?
Reading comprehension. Give it a try.

[Fyraltari]

Well, yes, but I do think things changed after his MoJ vision. He will stick with the Order now ("it's a whole thing"), so I can only see him bolting if the Order is out of the picture (I imagine he would say something like how "dumb" it was for him to get invested and that he should have walked ages ago, screw the world).
Yeah that's a good point. He'll probably stick with the Order come hell or high water by now.

[drazen]

Since the first time the protection from evil brooch was introduced, I stated his end was going to be: "Why it... doens't hurt me... anymore...? X_X" after some heroic sacrifice.

(Ok, I hoped for some kind of revenant version of him too, but aside that...)

Now I add more. He will be the only one to manage to live (after-live, actually) his dream exactly as he dreamed it: he will spend the afterlife cooking for Lord Shojo and Mr. Scruffy, finally being free to practice the only other skill set he has.

I also feel like Belkar would almost have to end up chilling with Shojo and Scruffy for eternity.

Is it just me or does the protection clasp seem to be hurting Belkar a little less? Although maybe that's just him getting used to the pain and showing he's hardcore enough to handle it.

I didn't particularly care for the memory-flood resolution and feel like the author's comments explaining it are a bit hand-wavy, but the parallels between Belkar and Vampire Durkon are well done. Each one witnessed someone do something kind for no reason and when they had every reason to do the opposite, and each one struggled with what to do with that. The memory flood overwrote the vampire, but that's not an option for Belkar; he hasn't had a ton of time for gradual adjustment, either. His hippie-vision quest was only three to four weeks ago, tops...

(He's "staying {at the Thieves' Guild}" for a few days" in #622 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html), the Order was only in town for Tarquin's festival for about three days as stated in #727 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html), and Durkon was turned into a vampire for "aboot a week" according to #1136 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1136.html); the only thing I can't find is how long the trip across the ocean took, but it was Hinjo's fastest ship, and V had already teleported the fleet to an abandoned island "a few dozen kilometers" from the Western Continent, in #643 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html))

... so we're really only seeing Belkar begin to scratch the surface of his own regrets. And it might not even be the full 3-4 weeks that he's really changed; he was really only "fake helping" the Order (palm tree in Durkon's face, heading off to deal with the hell-hound in the pyramid) right up until Durkon died.

I always wondered about the Uncivil Servant Kickstarter PDF, myself, because: Belkar actually seemed to have good intentions in that story, but terrible judgment, and part of that may have been due to his escape from slavery immediately before that story began. Was he always a psycho or did the enslavement break him into a sociopathic murderer?

[Peelee]

I always wondered about the Uncivil Servant Kickstarter PDF, myself, because: Belkar actually seemed to have good intentions in that story, but terrible judgment, and part of that may have been due to his escape from slavery immediately before that story began. Was he always a psycho or did the enslavement break him into a sociopathic murderer?

Weren't his intentions there "I want money. Hey, here's a way to get money"?

[Prinygod]

Reading comprehension. Give it a try.

"If you cannot attack the argument, attack the person"

[drazen]

Weren't his intentions there "I want money. Hey, here's a way to get money"?


Belkar originally thought he was taking down shakedown artists and the town would be appreciative that he removed a threat, like the giant bug.

Sure, he reacted terribly in the end when he still requested compensation. But he originally figured he was doing something the town wanted, which just happened to line up with his enjoyment of getting paid to be a murderhobo.

[Kish]

Ah, euphemisms.
Even if they were shakedown artists, expecting people to be pleased you straight up murdered two people would be very Belkar.

[Peelee]

Belkar originally thought he was taking down shakedown artists and the town would be appreciative that he removed a threat, like the giant bug.

Sure, he reacted terribly in the end when he still requested compensation. But he originally figured he was doing something the town wanted, which just happened to line up with his enjoyment of getting paid to be a murderhobo.

[/SPOILER]

So, to make sure I remember things correctly, why not skip relying on memory and instead open it up,

So, first Belkar breaks and enters, then steals food, then cooks because the stolen food isn't up to his standards. Then he sees what he thinks is a shakedown, which he openly approves of (though he critiques their execution). He then openly admired the slaver organization that had captured him, also critiquing that their execution. Shart and Brint both offer to recruit him after that display (where he killed a thing), and Belkar's first response is to ask how much money they'll pay (for what he thinks is to kill a thing). And so on and so on.

At what point did his good intentions start kicking in?

Ah, euphemisms.

Even if they were shakedown artists, expecting people to be pleased you straight up murdered two people would be very Belkar.

Six, not two. Brint had three people with him, and Shart brought one. Nah, you're right, they only knew about the two at first.

[Rrmcklin]

I also feel like Belkar would almost have to end up chilling with Shojo and Scruffy for eternity.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the chances of Belkar being Chaotic Good by the time the comic is over are exactly 0.

[RatElemental]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the chances of Belkar being Chaotic Good by the time the comic is over are exactly 0.

Mr. Scruffy probably won't be ending up in the chaotic good afterlife either.

[drazen]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the chances of Belkar being Chaotic Good by the time the comic is over are exactly 0.

I thought Shojo was CN, not CG?

[hamishspence]

I thought Shojo was CN, not CG?

This was the "Shojo is CG" quote from The Giant:


It's not relevant. It really isn't. It in no way affects the outcome of the story. I've said, in-comic and out, that he's Chaotic Good. Therefore, invent whatever scenarios would make you feel better about the outcome as I've shown it in the comic, but don't expect some sort of recounting of a bunch of unnecessary made-up facts.

I have no idea what actions Shojo may or may not have taken prior to the beginning of the comic, because I didn't spend any time figuring that out. What I did was have a plot that required that guy on the throne to be pulling schemes behind the backs of the paladins while still serving as a patron to the mostly-Good OOTS, and thought, "Yeah, that sounds Chaotic Good to me. Write it. Done."

[drazen]

Guess it was a failure of memory, as my recollection was Belkar calling him CN, but looking it up I guess he did say CG (though in my head an afterlife of scotch and cigars still sounds more CN to me).

[Peelee]

(though in my head an afterlife of scotch and cigars still sounds more CN to me).

That sounds odd.

[RatElemental]

(though in my head an afterlife of scotch and cigars still sounds more CN to me).

The CN afterlife is Limbo, a plane so chaotic that it has no discernible geography or even physical makeup that lasts longer than a few seconds, unless someone wills it to locally. Petitioners are either immediately absorbed into the plane to manifest as chaos elementals, or just made up of the same shifting matter stuff as the rest of the place depending on the source.

[Rrmcklin]

The CN afterlife is Limbo, a plane so chaotic that it has no discernible geography or even physical makeup that lasts longer than a few seconds, unless someone wills it to locally. Petitioners are either immediately absorbed into the plane to manifest as chaos elementals, or just made up of the same shifting matter stuff as the rest of the place depending on the source.

Incidentally, this is why, even though I don't expect it will happen, I wouldn't totally call Belkar a total Karma Houdini if he somehow managed to become CN before he died (and also passed to an actual after life, instead of being eaten by the Snarl or something). Maybe it's not the Abyss, but Limbo still sounds like a horrible place to spend eternity.

[woweedd]

Incidentally, this is why, even though I don't expect it will happen, I wouldn't totally call Belkar a total Karma Houdini if he somehow managed to become CN before he died (and also passed to an actual after life, instead of being eaten by the Snarl or something). Maybe it's not the Abyss, but Limbo still sounds like a horrible place to spend eternity.
Hey, you can have just about anything imaginable, so long as you have the will to manifest it. Think of like The Internet, if it were a place: Millions of little mini-communities, built around whatever ideals their inhabitants wish. For better, and for worse.

[martianmister]

Lawful Good, just like his pals Durkon and Roy.

[RatElemental]

Incidentally, this is why, even though I don't expect it will happen, I wouldn't totally call Belkar a total Karma Houdini if he somehow managed to become CN before he died (and also passed to an actual after life, instead of being eaten by the Snarl or something). Maybe it's not the Abyss, but Limbo still sounds like a horrible place to spend eternity.

In all likelyhood, even if Belkar makes it to CN he'll probably end up in pandemonium anyway. It takes a special kind of crazy to wind up in limbo in the first place. The exact kind of crazy that would enjoy it there.

[Rrmcklin]

In all likelyhood, even if Belkar makes it to CN he'll probably end up in pandemonium anyway. It takes a special kind of crazy to wind up in limbo in the first place. The exact kind of crazy that would enjoy it there.

Pandemonium is the "Chaotic, kind of Evil" one that had the tagline "Lulz" right? Yeah, that could work.

[Synesthesy]

Pandemonium is the "Chaotic, kind of Evil" one that had the tagline "Lulz" right? Yeah, that could work.

Actually, this would be the place Belkar likes the most, wouldn't it?

[Emanick]

Actually, this would be the place Belkar likes the most, wouldn't it?

It’s a pretty ghastly place, at least according to classic D&D materials. If it weren’t so empty, it might be even worse than the Nine Hells. I think Belkar would probably regard it as a “dump” at best.

[Inst]

I'm curious, would Belkar really care if he were stuck in the Blood War? He's high-level enough that he'd end up with an infinite supply of opponents to kill.

I think the assumption that the good afterlives are automatically superior to the evil afterlives is imposing your values and preferences onto different peoples. Check this out:



The petitioners (souls of the dead who have been sent to the layer for the afterlife) of the Abyss are called manes, and they are the lowest caste of the Tanar'ri. They have pale white skin, sharp teeth and claws, and maggots are reported to crawl through their flesh. Manes that survive for many years may be promoted to greater forms of demon. Extremely clever, lucky ones that survive for millennia may even eventually become Demon Lords. The Demon Lord Orcus is one such demon lord who began as a mane.

I wouldn't be surprised if Belkar wouldn't mind if he became a demon, and given his talent he might become a Demon Lord.

[hamishspence]

I'm curious, would Belkar really care if he were stuck in the Blood War? He's high-level enough that he'd end up with an infinite supply of opponents to kill.


Most people don't keep their levels in the afterlife. Even really exceptional people only become 1HD or 2HD petitioners. And when it comes to "being stuck in the Blood War" the most likely faction to get Belkar - The Abyss - turn their souls into 1HD, 3 INT Manes.

I think Belkar wouldn't be too happy at being reduced to a mane - he'd lose most of his INT, and most of his combat power.

[martianmister]

I'm curious, would Belkar really care if he were stuck in the Blood War? He's high-level enough that he'd end up with an infinite supply of opponents to kill.

I think the assumption that the good afterlives are automatically superior to the evil afterlives is imposing your values and preferences onto different peoples. Check this out:

I wouldn't be surprised if Belkar wouldn't mind if he became a demon, and given his talent he might become a Demon Lord.

Being a mane is a fate worse than death. You basically turn into a slave while losing your personality. I doubt he like'd that.

[hamishspence]

Being a mane is a fate worse than death. You basically turn into a slave while losing your personality. I doubt he like'd that.

The whole "body riddled with maggots" thing would also creep him out I suspect.

Showing him a mane and convincing him that "This is what you will become in the afterlife" would IMO also convince him to try and find a way of avoiding it.

[Fyraltari]

I'm curious, would Belkar really care if he were stuck in the Blood War? He's high-level enough that he'd end up with an infinite supply of opponents to kill.
Pretty sure there are much higher-level combatants on the other side(s) too. That whole "be strong enough and you'll be king of the world" pitch reeks of pyramid scheme 100km away.


I think the assumption that the good afterlives are automatically superior to the evil afterlives is imposing your values and preferences onto different peoples.
I dunno the whole "not-being tortured" seems universally appealing as well as "you get to experience all the earthly pleasures, no string attached" part.


I wouldn't be surprised if Belkar wouldn't mind if he became a demon, and given his talent he might become a Demon Lord.

"Extremely lucky, clever ones" + Belkar = Does not compute.

[Emanick]

Most people don't keep their levels in the afterlife. Even really exceptional people only become 1HD or 2HD petitioners. And when it comes to "being stuck in the Blood War" the most likely faction to get Belkar - The Abyss - turn their souls into 1HD, 3 INT Manes.

I think Belkar wouldn't be too happy at being reduced to a mane - he'd lose most of his INT, and most of his combat power.

Are we certain that this happens in the OOTSverse? (Serious question, not rhetorical - I may be forgetting something.) I know it's the standard interpretation, but the OOTSverse doesn't always work in precisely the way that standard D&D multiverses work.

For one thing, Acheron doesn't seem to instantly turn Jirix into a mindless soldier, the way a quick Google search suggests that it would. Then again, I didn't find anything terribly definitive, just a rather vague wiki summary, so maybe I'm misunderstanding the way Acheron works. I've never read The Manual of the Planes or comparable books, so most of my knowledge of the Outer Planes comes from the DMG and random online sources, which tend to be vague.

[woweedd]

Are we certain that this happens in the OOTSverse? (Serious question, not rhetorical - I may be forgetting something.) I know it's the standard interpretation, but the OOTSverse doesn't always work in precisely the way that standard D&D multiverses work.

For one thing, Acheron doesn't seem to instantly turn Jirix into a mindless soldier, the way a quick Google search suggests that it would. Then again, I didn't find anything terribly definitive, just a rather vague wiki summary, so maybe I'm misunderstanding the way Acheron works. I've never read The Manual of the Planes or comparable books, so most of my knowledge of the Outer Planes comes from the DMG and random online sources, which tend to be vague.
He was, presumably, in The Dark One's personal area of Archeon.

[Fyraltari]

Are we certain that this happens in the OOTSverse? (Serious question, not rhetorical - I may be forgetting something.) I know it's the standard interpretation, but the OOTSverse doesn't always work in precisely the way that standard D&D multiverses work.

For one thing, Acheron doesn't seem to instantly turn Jirix into a mindless soldier, the way a quick Google search suggests that it would. Then again, I didn't find anything terribly definitive, just a rather vague wiki summary, so maybe I'm misunderstanding the way Acheron works. I've never read The Manual of the Planes or comparable books, so most of my knowledge of the Outer Planes comes from the DMG and random online sources, which tend to be vague.

The IFCC's subcontractors look like they kept their powers.

[Emanick]

He was, presumably, in The Dark One's personal area of Archeon.

That's certainly true. In a "standard" D&D multiverse, would that mean the normal rules of Acheron don't apply to him? Do Evil clerics who go to their deities' home planes not tend to experience the same effects as everyone else, such as being Maned?

[hamishspence]

Do Evil clerics who go to their deities' home planes not tend to experience the same effects as everyone else, such as being Maned?

Evil "devoted followers of a deity" in general, get to ignore the standard rules. For example, normally, mortals who go to the Nine Hells become lemures. But followers of Sekolah become fiendish sahaugin instead. And followers of Kurtulmak become fiendish kobolds.

And for an Abyssal example - devoted followers of Lolth become yochlol instead of manes.

[Emanick]

Evil "devoted followers of a deity" in general, get to ignore the standard rules. For example, normally, mortals who go to the Nine Hells become lemures. But followers of Sekolah become fiendish sahaugin instead. And followers of Kurtulmak become fiendish kobolds.

And for an Abyssal example - devoted followers of Lolth become yochlol instead of manes.

Ah, gotcha. So maybe Jirix simply became a fiendish hobgoblin or something, then.

Bad news for Belkar, then, if the normal multiverse rules are indeed in effect.

[gatemansgc]

Undone by the Snarl is a distinct possibility.

i'm especially thinking he's gonna try to stab the snarl then this happens.

[Bamsenn]

Soooo, I’ve always been a fan of the idea of Belkar going out in style and with some redemption... but reading through this thread I realized something important, everyone likes to bring up the MoJ vision as an important shift in Belkar’s attitude/fate, but we’re all forgetting something, the password to the MoJ was “Evolve or Die”


It seems pretty important and too much of a coincidence for these to be the words paired up against the knowledge of Belkars death. So idk now I’m afraid that Belkar won’t change and die as a result of that.. :(

[SlashDash]

Does no one considers the possibility of Belkar ending up just like the Dark One? Ascending as a true sexy shoeless god of war?

[Emanick]

Does no one considers the possibility of Belkar ending up just like the Dark One? Ascending as a true sexy shoeless god of war?

Many, many people have considered it. And then most of us have discarded it as really implausible.

[woweedd]

Does no one considers the possibility of Belkar ending up just like the Dark One? Ascending as a true sexy shoeless god of war?
He doesn't inspire worship, really.

[Son of A Lich!]

Actually... Has Belkar had a birthday since the Prophecy?

I get that it's a turn of phrase, but one would think that the Prophecy can't be fulfilled until he's had a birthday with cake.

I mean, I'm not saying that he's going to avoid dying by refusing to have cake served to him, he still has the year clock on him, but I don't remember Belkar (Or... anyone for that matter...) celebrating his birthday yet.

[Caerulea]

1. We don't know.
2. A birthday is just a day. It does not require cake. A birthday party may, but those don't seem to be a thing in OotS. They are also not necessarily a thing for adults in our world.

—Caerulea

[Kalirren]

Belkar's fate is obviously to take Kraagor's place.

No better fate for him than to be statue that no one can smash without ending the world.

[ijuinkun]

As far as bringing up V - between Good and Evil, one is much harder to be than the other, guess which one?

Petty evil and cruelty is easy, but one has to go out of one's way quite a bit to kill people in large numbers.

Also, I can definitely imagine Belkar being like Kirito in this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9H5xJT5vAw

"I really REALLY hate people, and how DARE you make me CARE about them!"

[Rrmcklin]

Belkar's fate is obviously to take Kraagor's place.

No better fate for him than to be statue that no one can smash without ending the world.

What?


Petty evil and cruelty is easy, but one has to go out of one's way quite a bit to kill people in large numbers.

1) Okay, so you admit being evil is easy?

2) No, they don't, not necessarily. When V pulled their infamous genocide, with the power they had, it was quite easy for them to accomplish. It was over in moments. But you're also missing the actual point and context of that statement even beyond that.

[ijuinkun]

I think that Karlirren is referring to the hypothesis that the statue of Kraagor contains the Gate within itself, much like the sapphire on the throne of the Lord of Azure City contained Soon's Gate. (Thus, the doors with monsters behind them are a bluff to mislead those who would seek the Gate.)

Anway, being selfish and hateful is easy. Amassing the power to do more damage than Belkar's "stab people within reach whenever it's convenient" takes effort--Vaarsuvius had to make that infernal bargain in order to have access to Familicide, after all.

[Mariele]

I'm too tired to read the entire thread as I have class in a few hours and need to get some shut-eye, but I will say that Belkar drawing an illustration titled Last Breath Ever is up there on my list of favorite wacky forum theories. I'm still giggling.

I was never the biggest fan of Belkar when I started reading this comic (pre-Azure City era) just because he was so thoroughly irredeemably "yay stabby stabby". I don't think it's possible for Belkar to be redeemed from that at all--I accept character growth, but I don't accept completely rewriting a character into something unrecognizable and calling it psychological growth, which is what you would have to do to get Belkar to even the Neutral line. So yes, I'll say that Belkar is either going to go to the CE afterlife or is going to get unmade by the Snarl (which would be hilarious, heh).

I originally wrote a long post about V's redemption but I'm tired and didn't make it very clear so let me just say that I think V's redemption to Neutral is iffy.

[RatElemental]

I originally wrote a long post about V's redemption but I'm tired and didn't make it very clear so let me just say that I think V's redemption to Neutral is iffy.

V never stopped being neutral, they just have one really, really dark spot on their record they need to atone for now. Among a few other less dark spots scattered around here and there.

[Rrmcklin]

And it's not like anyone is supposed to think that Vaarsuvius's redemption is over anyway. Which is something I find happens a lot with trying to redeem characters - people equate characters starting to get better with the story trying to say "everything is fixed".

It makes discussing the general topic, and how it's handled with specific characters, harder than it needs to be.

[Mariele]

Nah, you're looking at it from a different angle I am. The crux of my original post was that V's little mishap was so incredibly Evil and was the result of a long-building careless attitude towards life that it should have knocked V right out of Neutral. I don't think you can call mass genocide (whether it had the complications V intended or not is not relevant--V most definitely intended genocide) a "really dark spot" on an otherwise Neutral record. This isn't exactly "I cheated on my wife after we fought, now I'm trying to atone for it"--it's very plain that V is trying to redeem herself, but that one act was so evil that I don't think that it's possible to atone for. At least, not up to the point of them saving the world. If we get a cut afterwards explaining what they did after the comic ended, I'd buy it. But this is just too short of a time frame to believe that anyone could fully repent from that out of purely good, unselfish motivations.

But this is just IMO. You don't have to agree with me--I'm just throwing my $0.02 in.

[Rrmcklin]

Nah, you're looking at it from a different angle I am. The crux of my original post was that V's little mishap was so incredibly Evil and was the result of a long-building careless attitude towards life that it should have knocked V right out of Neutral. I don't think you can call mass genocide (whether it had the complications V intended or not is not relevant--V most definitely intended genocide) a "really dark spot" on an otherwise Neutral record. This isn't exactly "I cheated on my wife after we fought, now I'm trying to atone for it"--it's very plain that V is trying to redeem herself, but that one act was so evil that I don't think that it's possible to atone for. At least, not up to the point of them saving the world. If we get a cut afterwards explaining what they did after the comic ended, I'd buy it. But this is just too short of a time frame to believe that anyone could fully repent from that out of purely good, unselfish motivations.

But this is just IMO. You don't have to agree with me--I'm just throwing my $0.02 in.

I'm just point out that what you said is that you found V's redemption, as in past tense, iffy. And my point is that the past tense is inappropriate because we're not supposed to think it's some completed action or arc. Whether V was full on Evil, or Neutral leaning heavily towards Evil is irrelevant to that point.

I have no real comment on whether what V did is something that can be satisfying written as "redeemed" in the first place.

Also have to point out I dislike the analogy of cheating on a spouse as "evil", but that's a different matter.

[Mariele]

I just scrolled up... it doesn't look past tense to me. Wouldn't that be "let me just say that I thought V's redemption to Neutral was iffy"? I've seen "redemption" used in multiple tenses so I'm a little confused. "His redemption came at a great price"--"He is working on his redemption"--"He is trying to achieve future redemption".

I originally wrote a long post about V's redemption but I'm tired and didn't make it very clear so let me just say that I think V's redemption to Neutral is iffy.

I think cheating on a partner is a rotten thing but I don't consider it Evil, either. Maybe more Chaotic-Neutral. My point is that it's a frequent enough transgression that most people understand that's it's just used as an example of a bad thing that a lot of people work through... but I agree that my using it in that context makes it seem like I was labeling it as Evil, so I apologize.

[Onos]

He doesn't inspire worship, really.

I've considered that since the bugbears near Kraagors Tomb tend not to be huge fans of the Dark One (but are obviously tied to his pantheon) they may end up seeing him as a figure worthy of worship due to some sort of semi-redeeming/incredibly badass act at the Tomb, letting him become the Sexy Shoeless Purple God of War.

I'm sure others have already made the argument that nothing could possibly fit better as a conclusion to "evolve or die" or vindicate his favourite catchphrase more than to ascend, but as something of an outcast amongst his own people (much like the bugbears) with a general ethos which seems remarkably in keeping with the bugbears (rangers, Evil, enjoyment of a challenge such as the Tomb, refined palate) Belkar may be the perfect candidate for their diety.

I've also wondered if he gains the greatest animal companion yet in the form of the Monster in the Dark by the end of things.

[Mariele]

Oh wow, really? I honestly just took "evolve or die" as "become more than a one-dimensional character or die".

[Rrmcklin]

I just scrolled up... it doesn't look past tense to me. Wouldn't that be "let me just say that I thought V's redemption to Neutral was iffy"? I've seen "redemption" used in multiple tenses so I'm a little confused. "His redemption came at a great price"--"He is working on his redemption"--"He is trying to achieve future redemption".


I think cheating on a partner is a rotten thing but I don't consider it Evil, either. Maybe more Chaotic-Neutral. My point is that it's a frequent enough transgression that most people understand that's it's just used as an example of a bad thing that a lot of people work through... but I agree that my using it in that context makes it seem like I was labeling it as Evil, so I apologize.

Yes, that was the part I meant; the wording made it seem like you assumed both that V had moved over to Evil, and already back to Neutral. Just a bit of miscommunication, it seems.


I've considered that since the bugbears near Kraagors Tomb tend not to be huge fans of the Dark One (but are obviously tied to his pantheon) they may end up seeing him as a figure worthy of worship due to some sort of semi-redeeming/incredibly badass act at the Tomb, letting him become the Sexy Shoeless Purple God of War.

I'm sure others have already made the argument that nothing could possibly fit better as a conclusion to "evolve or die" or vindicate his favourite catchphrase more than to ascend, but as something of an outcast amongst his own people (much like the bugbears) with a general ethos which seems remarkably in keeping with the bugbears (rangers, Evil, enjoyment of a challenge such as the Tomb, refined palate) Belkar may be the perfect candidate for their diety.

I've also wondered if he gains the greatest animal companion yet in the form of the Monster in the Dark by the end of things.

I'd say that I'd very much doubt the Bugbears have enough of a population that their worship could raise Belkar to godhood, or why they would even care about one stupid, stab-happy halfling, but I also have to ask if you actually think that's the kind of message the Giant would actually go for: "if you barely cross the border from evil to neutral, you get to become a god"?

Because I can't see that happening, at all. It's almost as bad as the idea that Redcloak is going to get deified at the end of the story.

[Onos]

I'd say that I'd very much doubt the Bugbears have enough of a population that their worship could raise Belkar to godhood, or why they would even care about one stupid, stab-happy halfling, but I also have to ask if you actually think that's the kind of message the Giant would actually go for: "if you barely cross the border from evil to neutral, you get to become a god"?

Because I can't see that happening, at all. It's almost as bad as the idea that Redcloak is going to get deified at the end of the story.

Well, as for their numbers perhaps it's easier to ascend to an emptier pantheon? Each deity has its own domain/sphere of influence in any culture, a "role" if you will. As there is no current deity bar what appears to be the "King" role (The Dark One) in the purple pantheon it makes sense that there are narrative spaces of a sort to be filled, deities of Harvest, War, Love and so forth. And given the existing pantheons have relatively similar numbers of deities it seems reasonable to assume that pantheons tend to have their roles filled early, which would tie to a new religion giving form to its people's cultural beliefs.

Furthermore, a deity with only a small following may simply be a weaker deity, and the bugbear population is unlikely to be a negligible fraction of the goblin population, which was enough to allow T.D.O. to ascend. Or he may only make demigod status, but hey, that's still a win for the Belkster.

Belkar is fairly strong at this stage to be fair, the gang are probably amongst the most powerful living mortals at this point and will no doubt manage to level in Kraagors Tomb if nowhere else before the end. He's also been shown forming genuine bonds with Bloodfeast and Scruffy, not to mention acts like saving Genji and his friend in the gladiatorial arena (sorry, too new to provide link), so I don't think he can really be considered a "stupid, stab-happy halfling".

As to crossing the line from Evil to Neutral...not necessarily if he's joining an Evil pantheon, or indeed is simply an Evil deity. Which is totally a thing already so he wouldn't be doing anything Rich hasn't already shown us.

EDIT:
Oh wow, really? I honestly just took "evolve or die" as "become more than a one-dimensional character or die".

Sure, me too until recently, but I think it would be pretty cool if Rich took it to that extent. I've posted elsethread about cool/plausible "epic conclusions" for the gang, cause if Rich does take it to this extreme it would only be reasonable to give the entire O.O.T.S. a pretty sweet deal.

[woweedd]

Well, as for their numbers perhaps it's easier to ascend to an emptier pantheon? Each deity has its own domain/sphere of influence in any culture, a "role" if you will. As there is no current deity bar what appears to be the "King" role (The Dark One) in the purple pantheon it makes sense that there are narrative spaces of a sort to be filled, deities of Harvest, War, Love and so forth. And given the existing pantheons have relatively similar numbers of deities it seems reasonable to assume that pantheons tend to have their roles filled early, which would tie to a new religion giving form to its people's cultural beliefs.

Furthermore, a deity with only a small following may simply be a weaker deity, and the bugbear population is unlikely to be a negligible fraction of the goblin population, which was enough to allow T.D.O. to ascend. Or he may only make demigod status, but hey, that's still a win for the Belkster.

Belkar is fairly strong at this stage to be fair, the gang are probably amongst the most powerful living mortals at this point and will no doubt manage to level in Kraagors Tomb if nowhere else before the end. He's also been shown forming genuine bonds with Bloodfeast and Scruffy, not to mention acts like saving Genji and his friend in the gladiatorial arena (sorry, too new to provide link), so I don't think he can really be considered a "stupid, stab-happy halfling".

As to crossing the line from Evil to Neutral...not necessarily if he's joining an Evil pantheon, or indeed is simply an Evil deity. Which is totally a thing already so he wouldn't be doing anything Rich hasn't already shown us.
Yes, but the question is, how? Not only does it not make sense in a literal sense, considering thee Dark One needed a small nation worth of people, but, like the "Redcloak becomes a deity" theory, it doesn't make narrative sense. I doubt Belkar's gonna get a reward for achieving a bare minimum of morals. My theory is still that he's gonna mirror Kraggor, sacrificing his life to seal The Snarl away for good, possibly with his last words being "It...doesn't...hurt?..." As his Protection from Evil burns around his dying body, indicating that this final deed finally pushed him across the line.

Sure, me too until recently, but I think it would be pretty cool if Rich took it to that extent. I've posted elsethread about cool/plausible "epic conclusions" for the gang, cause if Rich does take it to this extreme it would only be reasonable to give the entire O.O.T.S. a pretty sweet deal.
I mean...I'd say The Oracle adding "For You, at least" to Elan's happy ending prophecy indicates at least one of The Order will probably not get a happy ending. Elan definitely will, and Haley and Roy too, almost certainly, since they're his girlfriend and best friend, but the rest...At least one of them probably won't end this happily.

[Peelee]

Belkar is fairly strong at this stage to be fair, the gang are probably amongst the most powerful living mortals at this point and will no doubt manage to level in Kraagors Tomb if nowhere else before the end. He's also been shown forming genuine bonds with Bloodfeast and Scruffy, not to mention acts like saving Genji and his friend in the gladiatorial arena (sorry, too new to provide link), so I don't think he can really be considered a "stupid, stab-happy halfling".
I would not equate "strong, likes animals, and occasionally does nice things" to "no longer stupid or stab-happy."

Furthermore, a deity with only a small following may simply be a weaker deity, and the bugbear population is unlikely to be a negligible fraction of the goblin population, which was enough to allow T.D.O. to ascend. Or he may only make demigod status, but hey, that's still a win for the Belkster.
Given the Giant's thoughts on and portrayal of Evil, I doubt that the Belkster will get a win at the end of the day.

Yes, but the question is, how? Not only does it not make sense in a literal sense, considering thee Dark One needed a small nation worth of people, but, like the "Redcloak becomes a deity" theory, it doesn't make narrative sense. I doubt Belkar's gonna get a reward for achieving a bare minimum of morals. My theory is still that he's gonna mirror Kraggor, sacrificing his life to seal The Snarl away for good, possibly with his last words being "It...doesn't...hurt?..." As his Protection from Evil burns around his dying body, indicating that this final deed finally pushed him across the line.
Just like how V's single deed of horrific Evil didn't push them across the line, I doubt a single act of incredible Good will push Belkar across his.

[woweedd]

I would not equate "strong, likes animals, and occasionally does nice things" to "no longer stupid or stab-happy."

Given the Giant's thoughts on and portrayal of Evil, I doubt that the Belkster will get a win at the end of the day.

Just like how V's single deed of horrific Evil didn't push them across the line, I doubt a single act of incredible Good will push Belkar across his.
Maybe not, but a slow progression towards being better, followed by a massive act of self-sacrifice...That might do it. Plus, wasn't it pretty clear that, if V hadn't repented for what they did, they probably would have ended up NE?

[Peelee]

Maybe not, but a slow progression towards being better, followed by a massive act of self-sacrifice...That might do it. Plus, wasn't it pretty clear that, if V hadn't repented for what they did, they probably would have ended up NE.
I agree on both counts, but Belkar has had zero progression towards getting better or repentance. He's less annoyingly or destructively Evil, but he's not really less Evil. It's more of a Chaotic to Neutral shift, IMO.

[woweedd]

I agree on both counts, but Belkar has had zero progression towards getting better or repentance. He's less annoyingly or destructively Evil, but he's not really less Evil. It's more of a Chaotic to Neutral shift, IMO.
Eh. He's at least gained a sense of empathy, and is clearly starting to gonk the concept of guilt. I'd argue he hasn't done anything worse then Chaotic Neutral this whole book.

[Peelee]

Eh. He's at least gained a sense of empathy, and is clearly starting to gonk the concept of guilt. I'd argue he hasn't done anything worse then Chaotic Neutral this whole book.

And, as I've asserted multiple times before, no longer doing Evil doesn't make an Evil person non-Evil. My usual go-to is Vader on a beach sipping Mai Tais.

[woweedd]

And, as I've asserted multiple times before, no longer doing Evil doesn't make an Evil person non-Evil. My usual go-to is Vader on a beach sipping Mai Tais.
Everything is Star Wars with you, isn't it?:smallwink:

[Fyraltari]

And, as I've asserted multiple times before, no longer doing Evil doesn't make an Evil person non-Evil. My usual go-to is Vader on a beach sipping Mai Tais.

That rather depends on wether you consider someone's alignment a description of their personnality or a summation of their lives. Or the old philosophical question is "someone who never committed any wrongdoing for fear of repercussion/lack of opportunity but would have if they could get away with it evil?"

Using Vader too defend the "actions not personality" position is a bit weird since the Galaxy far far away leans on the "personality not actions" side, as seen in Vader's own redemption.

[Peelee]

Everything is Star Wars with you, isn't it?:smallwink:

Of course not! If it was, I wouldn't have to direct every conversation back to Star Wars, which is damned inconvenient if you ask me.:smalltongue:

Maybe we could use Mecha Hitler in a retirement home? Robot Nixon when he goes back to the Head Museum?

That rather depends on wether you consider someone's alignment a description of their personnality or a summation of their lives. Or the old philosophical question is "someone who never committed any wrongdoing for fear of repercussion/lack of opportunity but would have if they could get away with it evil?"

Using Vader too defend the "actions not personality" position is a bit weird since the Galaxy far far away leans on the "personality not actions" side, as seen in Vader's own redemption.

Well, we know Stickworld is judged on summation of lives, not personality, given Belkar's projection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html). So instead of Vader on a beach, Robot Nixon back in the head museum.

[zimmerwald1915]

Imma just take this opportunity to plug this video on redemption (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t1Y2vIXW_o). It's pretty clear that Belkar's, if he gets one, will fall into the third type, and whether you buy that type or not is down to you personally.

[woweedd]

Imma just take this opportunity to plug this video on redemption (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t1Y2vIXW_o). It's pretty clear that Belkar's, if he gets one, will fall into the third type, and whether you buy that type or not is down to you personally.
Aren't you against the concept of redemption, given your generally-Calvinist philosophy?

[zimmerwald1915]

Aren't you against the concept of redemption, given your generally-Calvinist philosophy?
Sure. But that doesn't mean others can't benefit from a useful resource.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean...I'd say The Oracle adding "For You, at least" to Elan's happy ending prophecy indicates at least one of The Order will probably not get a happy ending. Elan definitely will, and Haley and Roy too, almost certainly, since they're his girlfriend and best friend, but the rest...At least one of them probably won't end this happily. V already isn't happy ... and I'll note that Beklar ...

I agree on both counts, but Belkar has had zero progression towards getting better or repentance. He's less annoyingly or destructively Evil, but he's not really less Evil. It's more of a Chaotic to Neutral shift, IMO.... has been going through the emotional+alignment version of puberty ever since Durkon was killed by a vampire right in front of him in Book V. His rage/frustration/acting out right before burying that stake into Durkula's heart is one way of showing that, as well as his "he didn't blame me" line a while previous to that.

[Peelee]

V already isn't happy ... and I'll note that Beklar ...
... has been going through the emotional+alignment version of puberty ever since Durkon was killed by a vampire right in front of him in Book V. His rage/frustration/acting out right before burying that stake into Durkula's heart is one way of showing that, as well as his "he didn't blame me" line a while previous to that.

I totally agree that Belkar is becoming more three-dimensional ever since his revelation that being a one-dimensional jerk was going badly for him.

[Rrmcklin]

I'd agree that Belkar is changing on the Good/Evil axis and not the Law/Chaos axis; he started faking character development specifically so he wouldn't have to stop being chaotic and get away with it, and thematically I doubt Rich would portray someone becoming less Chaotic/attribute the changes Belkar has made to becoming less Chaotic.

Still, he's still a long ways off from being Good, or even Neutral, and I definitely do not see him being rewarded for the slight shift, let alone with something like becoming one of the gods who actually controls the world/planes.

[denthor]

I am still waiting for someone to serve birthday cake.

After all I would tell him to savor his next birthday cake. Does not mean it is his.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd agree that Belkar is changing on the Good/Evil axis and not the Law/Chaos axis; he started faking character development specifically so he wouldn't have to stop being chaotic and get away with it, and thematically I doubt Rich would portray someone becoming less Chaotic/attribute the changes Belkar has made to becoming less Chaotic.

I think he is changing in neither scale. I think he is changing in the team player scale, which is neither. Specifically, in the "it's OK to care about other beings" scale.

Like Rich has told us, having friends is not exclusive property of Good. Belkar is still the same murderer he always was, and has no more respect for rules, laws, traditions, best practices or any other lawful structure you care to mention. But he is willing to trust, rely and befriend others now (to his great surprise). Heck, he is considerably more Evil than Hilgya, and always has been, and yet has more people he can rely on (and who have now grown to know they can rely on him, in his limited ways) than she does.

If anything, Rich is demonstrating that Evil is as much as spectrum as Good is.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I think he is changing in neither scale. I think he is changing in the team player scale, which is neither. Specifically, in the "it's OK to care about other beings" scale.

Like Rich has told us, having friends is not exclusive property of Good. Belkar is still the same murderer he always was, and has no more respect for rules, laws, traditions, best practices or any other lawful structure you care to mention. But he is willing to trust, rely and befriend others now (to his great surprise). Heck, he is considerably more Evil than Hilgya, and always has been, and yet has more people he can rely on (and who have now grown to know they can rely on him, in his limited ways) than she does.

If anything, Rich is demonstrating that Evil is as much as spectrum as Good is.

Grey Wolf

Agreed on all counts. I muddied the water by saying it'd be more of a Chaos-to-Neutral shift than anything, but I don't actually believe he's shifting, just becoming more fleshed out.

[Rrmcklin]

I mean, I feel like Belkar's not-self aware conversation with Greg on what change is and how it works on people, and Belkar Durkon's recent conversation about why more Evil people aren't Good goes against that sentiment but, eh.

Again, I'm not arguing for any major, alignment weight on Belkar's part, just an acknowledgement that I think we are supposed to be seeing him as slightly less Evil. Which isn't the same thing as saying he isn't still pretty evil, with a lot of bad karma. But saying there has been no shift doesn't feel any more right than the people who keep trying to insist against all evidence he isn't even Evil anymore.

[Liquor Box]

And, as I've asserted multiple times before, no longer doing Evil doesn't make an Evil person non-Evil. My usual go-to is Vader on a beach sipping Mai Tais.

We know from the Diva's evil chart (the one measured in kilonazis) that Belkar was much less evil after meeting Roy. Do you think that his vast improvement there was due to no longer doing (as much) evil, or because he was being actively good? I think the Diva was saying that Belkar had committed less evil acts since meeting Roy, so was therefore judged as being less evil when he was committing more evil acts.

It follows that doing no evil now would make Belkar less evil. The question is whether it can ever lessen his evilness sufficiently for him to shift to neutral.


There is of course also the question of whether Belkar is actually doing good. There's a fair argument that he is
- he is participating in an effort to save the world from great evil after all, at great risk to his safety. I get that there are counter-arguments to this (based around intention), but I don't think those are any more compelling that the argument to the contrary.
- he is displaying empathy with his cat, his lizard and Durkon. YMMV on whether forming empathetic connections is a good act, but I think the comic is presenting it that way.
- he chose not to take advantage of the gnome (or to take advantage of her less) when he had the opportunity to do so - again YMMV

Between his refraining from doing evil, those things that might be interpreted as actually good (depending on your perspective of what constitutes good) and the possibility of a major sacrifice for good at the end, I think there's at least a chance that Belkar will end the comic as neutral.

However, it comes Belkar deserves a good (as in spectacular and satisfactory, even if it is in an evil afterlife) ending - he's been one of the most popular and entertaining characters throughout.

[RatElemental]

I don't know if that's a fair summation of Belkar's shift. He's expressed guilt over getting an unfair discount from someone he didn't know (and passed up a chance to maybe hook up with her as a result of said discount), expressed disappointment at "only being good at hurting things," and has dropped hints that his outlook is slowly shifting.

I fall on the side of outlook mattering more than history when it comes to alignment. I think history should factor into your afterlife, but not into your alignment (as anything other than an indication of what your outlook is). The giant hasn't made his stance on this clear to my knowledge.

[Liquor Box]

I don't know if that's a fair summation of Belkar's shift. He's expressed guilt over getting an unfair discount from someone he didn't know (and passed up a chance to maybe hook up with her as a result of said discount), expressed disappointment at "only being good at hurting things," and has dropped hints that his outlook is slowly shifting.

I fall on the side of outlook mattering more than history when it comes to alignment. I think history should factor into your afterlife, but not into your alignment (as anything other than an indication of what your outlook is). The giant hasn't made his stance on this clear to my knowledge.

Again, we get a pretty clear steer from the Diva considering Roy's afterlife.

She refers to examining his life and refers to a permanent record (excluding childhood escapades) before going through a list of what she considers misdeeds. But she also makes it clear that later good deeds can weigh against the bad, and that battling the forces of evil are a good act.

Accordingly, I think it is history that matters more than outlook - although it may well be weighted toward recent history.


I also get a sense that neutral is the default - It would not take much evil to drag an otherwise good person into evil. The reverse strikes me as likely as well - it would not take much good to drag an otherwise evil man into neutral.

[Peelee]

Again, we get a pretty clear steer from the Diva considering Roy's afterlife.

She refers to examining his life and refers to a permanent record (excluding childhood escapades) before going through a list of what she considers misdeeds. But she also makes it clear that later good deeds can weigh against the bad, and that battling the forces of evil are a good act.

I would argue that Belkar is not battling against the forces of Evil; he's just along for the ride.

[RatElemental]

Again, we get a pretty clear steer from the Diva considering Roy's afterlife.

She refers to examining his life and refers to a permanent record (excluding childhood escapades) before going through a list of what she considers misdeeds. But she also makes it clear that later good deeds can weigh against the bad, and that battling the forces of evil are a good act.

Accordingly, I think it is history that matters more than outlook - although it may well be weighted toward recent history.


I also get a sense that neutral is the default - It would not take much evil to drag an otherwise good person into evil. The reverse strikes me as likely as well - it would not take much good to drag an otherwise evil man into neutral.

This is why I draw a distinction between alignment and afterlife. There is a difference between what one may deserve given everything they've ever done, and what that person is likely to do going forward given how they have come to view the world.

[Liquor Box]

I would argue that Belkar is not battling against the forces of Evil; he's just along for the ride.

Well, he is battling the forces of evil - he stabbed a vampire. I think your point goes to his intent - that he would equally happy fighting for the other team. As I acknowledged, it is arguable either way.


This is why I draw a distinction between alignment and afterlife. There is a difference between what one may deserve given everything they've ever done, and what that person is likely to do going forward given how they have come to view the world.

The Deva said that she had only two criteria in assessing Roy for entry into her afterlife - was he good and was he lawful. You could argue that Roy's actual alignment may have differred from the Deva's assessment of his liability, but I'm not so sure.

[Mariele]

I'm going to agree with Peelee here. I don't think Belkar has really changed from Evil at all... I think he's gained a more well-rounded personality, maybe some empathy, not these things alone don't make him less Evil. They just make him a more complex character. No, we haven't seen him do anything "Evil" this arc (aside from a joke about stabbing Roy in the heart, but I haven't reread the comic in awhile), but I don't think we have enough evidence that he's changed enough that doing something Evil would be out of character now. Just that he might be slightly more restrained in his Evil deeds.

Really, though, the alignment system is so messy that any portrayal of it is capable of being twisted or filled with "inaccuracies", depending on how you look at it.

[Rrmcklin]

I'm going to agree with Peelee here. I don't think Belkar has really changed from Evil at all... I think he's gained a more well-rounded personality, maybe some empathy, not these things alone don't make him less Evil. They just make him a more complex character.

Those traits don't mean he isn't evil, no, but do they mean that he's less evil than he used to be? Yes, I think they do.

I know that Giant's quote about the tyrants who were friend, and understand the point he was trying to illustrate, but I think that point is different from how some of you might be interpreting it.

I agree with Peelee that evil is a spectrum, but even the term spectrum implies degrees. There are a lot of evil characters in this strip, but I wouldn't say they're all equally evil, anymore than all the good characters are equally good. And therefore it's entirely possible for an evil character become less so, without completely changing.

Who knows, maybe Belkar could stop being evil if given enough time and the right circumstances, but since his death is quickly approaching, I doubt such a thing will happen.

[Peelee]

Well, he is battling the forces of evil - he stabbed a vampire. I think your point goes to his intent - that he would equally happy fighting for the other team. As I acknowledged, it is arguable either way.

Eh, he's battling the forces of Evil just as much as Xykon was when he killed off the lizardfolk who assaulted the paladin fortress. That Evil just happened to be their enemy at the time.

[Mariele]

That is fair, Rrmcklin. But now we're going into territory, at least to me, where we're trying to decide if someone who would murder an entire town is more evil than someone who doesn't go on killing sprees in general and has friends, but would kill someone who mildly inconvenienced him without thinking anything of it. I say no--but this is going more into real life morality debate than simple alignment and afterlife questions, so I will leave it there.

Edit to add: No, I definitely don't think the evil characters in the strip are equally evil. I just don't think Belkar's evil has really lessened so much as it has just changed.

[Liquor Box]

Eh, he's battling the forces of Evil just as much as Xykon was when he killed off the lizardfolk who assaulted the paladin fortress. That Evil just happened to be their enemy at the time.

Yes, I agree (although I think Belkar's was more good because he was at greater risk, and the evil foes who smote had the potential to cause greater harm). And in each case, whether fighting that evil was a plus mark on their afterlife resume depends on to what extent you judge the effect of their actions as important and to what extent you judge the intent behind their actions as important. I suspect the comic's answer is a bit of both.

[Brumagris]

I think he is changing in neither scale. I think he is changing in the team player scale, which is neither. Specifically, in the "it's OK to care about other beings" scale.

Like Rich has told us, having friends is not exclusive property of Good. Belkar is still the same murderer he always was, and has no more respect for rules, laws, traditions, best practices or any other lawful structure you care to mention. But he is willing to trust, rely and befriend others now (to his great surprise). Heck, he is considerably more Evil than Hilgya, and always has been, and yet has more people he can rely on (and who have now grown to know they can rely on him, in his limited ways) than she does.

If anything, Rich is demonstrating that Evil is as much as spectrum as Good is.

Grey Wolf

First things first, I also agree Belkar is still evil, however I do see him slowly changing towards a less evil and at some point in the future, neutral alignment.

I believe he is not the same murdered he previously was and that his scale of values is slowly shaking. We can see how in strip 1151 he identifies introspection as a sign of bravery and he wants to get Durkon's approval on this hypothesis.
,Why? In my opinion it is because somehow he is scared of both facing the monster he became and its consequences and because for him, being evil was also a synonym of being strong in a world of bigger people (perhaps a self confidence issue that he is trying to hide and can be part of his psyche?) . It seems like a cry from his old self "If I stop being evil I will be seen as weak!" versus his developing morale "facing what you did and taking responsibility is the most badass thing you can do".

So yeah, still evil indeed, but he is changing and I am certain that we will still see more to come

[MountainTiger]

Am I correct that Belkar being permanently dead in standard 3.5e cosmology requires one of these things to happen?

Nobody tries to raise him
He dies in a way that prevents being raised (annihilated by the Snarl is the obvious option)
He refuses to be raised
He continues to exist outside the normal afterlife (we have seen party members as undead and constructs, mortals can ascend to godhood, probably other options)


Of these, "Annihilated by the Snarl" seems like the easiest narrative option, since it lets him have a heroic sacrifice without requiring a canonical answer to where his alignment ends up for eternal destination purposes.

[martianmister]

There is no one interested in raising him.

[Squire Doodad]

There is no one interested in raising him.

Like, there may be people sad about his death, but none who feel he should be back on his feet and continuing the stabbity lifestyle.

[RatElemental]

Nobody tries to raise him
He dies in a way that prevents being raised (annihilated by the Snarl is the obvious option)
He refuses to be raised
He continues to exist outside the normal afterlife (we have seen party members as undead and constructs, mortals can ascend to godhood, probably other options)


Option 5 is: He dies in a way that doesn't leave a corpse or his corpse isn't found and no one can cast True Resurrection.

Option 6 is: He dies and no one knows about it.

[Kish]

Option 5 is: He dies in a way that doesn't leave a corpse or his corpse isn't found and no one can cast True Resurrection.

Does a slightly more specific case of Option 2 really deserve being split out like that?


Option 6 is: He dies and no one knows about it.
Does a slightly more specific case of Option 1 really deserve being split out like that?

[Edreyn]

Option 7: He won't die at all, everything what Oracle said was anything, but prediction of death.

[Rrmcklin]

Option 7: He won't die at all, everything what Oracle said was anything, but prediction of death.

Except taking together, literally the only thing he could be referring to is Belkar dying.

[MountainTiger]

Option 7: He won't die at all, everything what Oracle said was anything, but prediction of death.

This is a possible way of resolving the prophecy, but the result is not that he's "permanently dead," which was my question.

[Peelee]

Am I correct that Belkar being permanently dead in standard 3.5e cosmology requires one of these things to happen?

I just noticed nobody answered the question. Yes, you are correct!

[Edreyn]

I don't know about 3.5, but in that game, Pathfinder Kingmaker, there were creatures that upon killing someone, also consumed his soul. And this companion couldn't be resurrected. Is there something similar in 3.5?

But in any case, I still believe that prophecies don't mean death, and will be explained in some hilarious way.

[Peelee]

I don't know about 3.5, but in that game, Pathfinder Kingmaker, there were creatures that upon killing someone, also consumed his soul. And this companion couldn't be resurrected. Is there something similar in 3.5?

That'd fall under 4, exists outside of the normal afterlife. For in-comic example, see the Ancient Black Dragon that was planning to Soul Bind V's children. Or Lirian or Dorukon.

[Bamsenn]

That'd fall under 4, exists outside of the normal afterlife. For in-comic example, see the Ancient Black Dragon that was planning to Soul Bind V's children. Or Lirian or Durkon.

Dorukan. I have trouble switching back and forth as well, no worries :)

[Peelee]

Dorukan. I have trouble switching back and forth as well, no worries :)

My phone finally accepts Durkon as a word to not autocorrect. Now to get it to stop autocorrecting Dorukon to Durkon...

[Kish]

My phone finally accepts Durkon as a word to not autocorrect. Now to get it to stop autocorrecting Dorukon to Durkon...
The phone is correct. Dorukon may not be a typo for Durkon, but neither it is the name of a character in this comic.

You might want to convince the phone to instead correct Dorukon to Dorukan, though.

[Peelee]

The phone is correct. Dorukon may not be a typo for Durkon, but neither it is the name of a character in this comic.

You might want to convince the phone to instead correct Dorukon to Dorukan, though.

You've saved me from a whole new headache for when I eventually realized that. Mucho appreciado!

[Ruck]

Well, we know Stickworld is judged on summation of lives, not personality, given Belkar's projection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html). So instead of Vader on a beach, Robot Nixon back in the head museum.

On the other hand, when Rich has spoken on characters alignments, he's usually talking from a prescriptive standpoint-- how he writes the character. So relevant to the conversation about Vaarsuvius, I think if V were judged right now they definitely could end up in the Evil category (because, you know, genocide), but V's general outlook is still True Neutral, hence the reaction of horror at learning the extent of the genocide, and not, say, shrugging it off as "Sometimes you have to ruthlessly crush 1/4 of a sapient species' eggs to make an omelet. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html)"

(I know I'm late to the party, but I just got caught up.)

[Peelee]

On the other hand, when Rich has spoken on characters alignments, he's usually talking from a prescriptive standpoint-- how he writes the character. So relevant to the conversation about Vaarsuvius, I think if V were judged right now they definitely could end up in the Evil category (because, you know, genocide), but V's general outlook is still True Neutral, hence the reaction of horror at learning the extent of the genocide, and not, say, shrugging it off as "Sometimes you have to ruthlessly crush 1/4 of a sapient species' eggs to make an omelet. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html)"

(I know I'm late to the party, but I just got caught up.)

Late to the party? The house has been clean for weeks! We even got Nixon's Head to finally sleep it off!

Anyway, V is at the very least remorseful. I have yet to see any indication that Belkar will ever regret any of his shenanigans.

[Ruck]

Late to the party? The house has been clean for weeks! We even got Nixon's Head to finally sleep it off!

Anyway, V is at the very least remorseful. I have yet to see any indication that Belkar will ever regret any of his shenanigans.

"Sorry I hit you in the face with a palm tree that one time." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html)

[Peelee]

"Sorry I hit you in the face with a palm tree that one time." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html)

Point taken. New theorem: I have yet to see any indication that Belkar will ever regret any of his shenanigans, except when the victim saved his life.

[ijuinkun]

Belkar may be starting to show a degree of caring for his friends, but he definitely has not changed in his outlook towards strangers and minor NPCs.

[AstralFire]

I think Belkar is showing the necessary growth to become non-evil, but has not actually taken the actions necessary to do so.

FWIW my money's on Vaarsuvius dying to the Snarl and Belkar going to an evil afterlife but deciding to make the most of it and slowly growing there. I think those ends avoid letting anyone 'off the hook' without giving endings that completely negate the progress they have made.

[locksmith of lo]

"Sorry I hit you in the face with a palm tree that one time." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html)

as i re-read this, i noted that durkon did not simply acknowlege the apology, he said "ultimate extreme apology accept'd." while durkon may have been sarcastic, i wondered if apologizing to cleric and being forgiven carries some extra weight? kind of like a confession to a priest for absolving sins of the past? so not only does belkar admit and apologize but it is heard and forgiven by a lawful good cleric of a specific religion. it seems to me that apology has greater gravity than simply apologizing to haley, for example.

or am i reading to far into this? :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

as i re-read this, i noted that durkon did not simply acknowlege the apology, he said "ultimate extreme apology accept'd." while durkon may have been sarcastic, i wondered if apologizing to cleric and being forgiven carries some extra weight? kind of like a confession to a priest for absolving sins of the past? so not only does belkar admit and apologize but it is heard and forgiven by a lawful good cleric of a specific religion. it seems to me that apology has greater gravity than simply apologizing to haley, for example.

or am i reading to far into this? :smallsmile:

He'd be absolved of the one thing he confessed, then. I don't think the tree thing was the act that pushed Belkar over the edge into true Evilness.

[Kish]

as i re-read this, i noted that durkon did not simply acknowlege the apology, he said "ultimate extreme apology accept'd." while durkon may have been sarcastic, i wondered if apologizing to cleric and being forgiven carries some extra weight? kind of like a confession to a priest for absolving sins of the past? so not only does belkar admit and apologize but it is heard and forgiven by a lawful good cleric of a specific religion. it seems to me that apology has greater gravity than simply apologizing to haley, for example.

or am i reading to far into this? :smallsmile:
I think you're reading in the wrong direction into this--as in, you're not paying attention to the conversation in the rest of the strip. Belkar has just concluded, from what Durkon was saying, that remaining evil is an indication of cowardice while reforming would show courage; Durkon is trying to encourage that line of thought for obvious reasons. There doesn't need to be some magical cleric thing that amounts to Durkon mystically mattering more than Haley.

[Sir_Norbert]

It's "ultimate extreme" because it involved a tree, simple as that.

[Squire Doodad]

I think you're reading in the wrong direction into this--as in, you're not paying attention to the conversation in the rest of the strip. Belkar has just concluded, from what Durkon was saying, that remaining evil is an indication of cowardice while reforming would show courage; Durkon is trying to encourage that line of thought for obvious reasons. There doesn't need to be some magical cleric thing that amounts to Durkon mystically mattering more than Haley.

Yeah, the power that asking a cleric for apologies would have (assuming it wasn't the cleric who you wronged) strictly comes from the power you give them as an authority figure. If you feel clerics are just mages who lie about where their power is coming from and thus have no real authority in comparison to any other mage, then this would not be the case. It's not their piety that matters, its their role in the OotSverse society.

[CriticalFailure]

It’s because Belkar chose to frame introspection and improvement in the idea that it makes him tough. So Durkon responded in the same vein.

[ijuinkun]

He'd be absolved of the one thing he confessed, then. I don't think the tree thing was the act that pushed Belkar over the edge into true Evilness.

No, but Belkar was specifically apologizing to Durkon for something that he had done to Durkon himself. Rather than being an apology for a general evil action, he was apologizing for something personal. It's significant because it shows Belkar as interested in a friendlier relationship with Durkon (who, after all, had been killed and vampire'd because he was attempting to save Belkar from Malack). In his own way, Belkar is acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, Durkon doesn't deserve Belkar being a jerkass towards him.

[RatElemental]

There actually is a mystical way confessing to a cleric can matter more than confessing to a random non-cleric when it comes to alignment. It's called the atonement spell, and no matter how much I wish it wasn't able to do this (because it gives the impression you need it to do this), it can be used by a cleric to give a willing creature a chance to switch alignments to that of the caster.

[Peelee]

No, but Belkar was specifically apologizing to Durkon for something that he had done to Durkon himself. Rather than being an apology for a general evil action, he was apologizing for something personal. It's significant because it shows Belkar as interested in a friendlier relationship with Durkon (who, after all, had been killed and vampire'd because he was attempting to save Belkar from Malack). In his own way, Belkar is acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, Durkon doesn't deserve Belkar being a jerkass towards him.

Yes? I've never argued that Belkar isn't growing, only that he's not making the shift away from Evil.

[hroþila]

He's moving away from the black hole at the centre of the Evil galaxy, which is vast and uncaring.

[Cygnia]

I'm wondering if Belkar might end up possessing this dagger found here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html)...

[Ruck]

I'm wondering if Belkar might end up possessing this dagger found here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html)...

What do you mean? You wonder if he "might end up possessing" the dagger Vaarsuvius gave him?

[Cygnia]

As in, his soul/ego/consciousness gets sucked into it after his death. It is a psionic blade (although Belkar doesn't possess psionics -- but his ego is certainly strong enough to stick around in some way)

[Ruck]

Oh, different meaning of "possession." I see.

I doubt it, but mostly because I don't see what purpose that would serve in the story.

[ijuinkun]

But Belkar is Chaotic, and Possession is 9/10 of the Law!

[KorvinStarmast]

There actually is a mystical way confessing to a cleric can matter more than confessing to a random non-cleric when it comes to alignment. It's called the atonement spell, and no matter how much I wish it wasn't able to do this (because it gives the impression you need it to do this), it can be used by a cleric to give a willing creature a chance to switch alignments to that of the caster. Yes, that is a spell Durkon could use, but I don't see it as in character for him to use that on Belkar unless Belkar asked him to. (And yeah, magic does weird stuff)
But Belkar is Chaotic, and Possession is 9/10 of the Law! Nicely punned. :smallsmile:

[RatElemental]

Yes, that is a spell Durkon could use, but I don't see it as in character for him to use that on Belkar unless Belkar asked him to. (And yeah, magic does weird stuff)

It wouldn't do anything even if he did cast it on Belkar, unless Belkar freely and willingly chose to take the chance the spell offered him, which I don't see happening currently.


I also really don't see Belkar possessing his weapon. Psionic weaponry is no more special than magic weapons, and that knife doesn't even have any of the mind-related psionic stuff on it.