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PhoenixPhyre
2019-01-19, 05:16 PM
This is a trial balloon post, to consider (and get feedback on) a proposal for porting a version of 3e's Alternate Class Features (ACFs) to 5e. Consider everything in here a WIP and up for discussion and change.

Basic Goal
Increase the range of archetypes available by allowing players to substitute core features for slightly different core features without increasing the overall power level of the character.

General Rules
* No class feature can be swapped out for two different ACFs.
* Taking an ACF must happen at the level that the class feature being replaced/modified is first gained.
* When gaining a level in a class (including 1st character level), ACFs are chosen last (after all other choices are made). This includes archetype choices. For example, a Cleric 1 would have to choose their domain before deciding to replace any features gained at that level with ACFs.
* The interaction between an ACF and features that modify or mention the replaced feature is explicitly detailed in the text of the ACF.
*If an ACF has a restriction, that restriction is checked at each subsequent level and the ACF becomes non-functional entirely (and the replaced feature is not returned) if that restriction is violated.

Examples by class

Cloistered
Feature(s) replaced: Weapon proficiency, armor proficiency. This includes domain weapon and armor proficiencies.
New feature: You gain proficiency in light armor, quarterstaffs, slings, and daggers.
New feature: When you complete a short rest, you regain spell slots with levels totaling half your level (minimum 1). Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you complete a long rest.



Mind War
Feature modified: Rage
Changes: You no longer gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage while raging. Instead, you can substitute Strength saving throws for Intelligence saving throws and Constitution saving throws for Wisdom saving throws against spells or other magical effects.
Feature Interaction: If you choose the Path of the Totem Warrior at level 3 and choose the Bear Totem, you only gain resistance to damage of types other than bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing.

Agile Rage
Feature modified: Rage
Changes: You no longer gain the extra damage on hit while raging and attacking with Strength. Instead, you gain the extra damage from raging on hit while attacking with finesse weapons held in one hand. You also gain the Two-weapon fighting style (see Fighter). and as long as you are raging you can draw or sheath two finesse weapons as part of a single object interaction on your turn. The extra damage from raging is reduced by 1 (so +1 at 1st level, etc).

Giegue
2019-01-19, 06:14 PM
While these are not ported directly from 3.5e, I (and some other people) felt that ALL divine souls getting a healing bonus at 6th level felt extremely off. Why would, say, a Divine Soul whose magic comes from Bhaal or Orcus be better at healing? As a result, I made an ACF that allows evil divine souls to trade away the 6th level healing bonus for one of two features that better fit the concept of a divine soul of an evil deity....

Acolyte of Evil

As a Divine Soul who draws your power from an evil deity, your innate divine magic is focused more on harming your enemies or raising undead than healing allies. If the affinity for your Divine Magic feature is Evil, or is Law or Chaos but your deity's alignment is evil, you can take this ACF. What it grants you is detailed below..

Feature(s) Replaced: Empowered Healing

Feature(s) Gained: Your choice of Font of Necrosis or General of Undeath (Once chosen, your selection cannot be changed.)

Font of Necrosis. At 6th level, the dark divine magic that suffuses your being swells with power, bolstering your harmful magics. When you cast a sorcerer spell that deals Necrotic damage, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell. Additionally, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point when you do this to have that spell ignore resistance to necrotic damage.

General of Undeath. Starting at 6th level, you learn how to harness the sinister divine magic coursing through your blood to twist the undead animation spells you cast, allowing you to empower the undead they raise and use them to control more undead than normal. When you cast a Necromancy spell to reassert control over undead you created (Such as Animate Dead or Create Undead), you can expend any number of sorcery points to cast it as if using a spell slot one level higher for each point expended, to a maximum of one spell level higher than the highest spell level to which you have access. Additionally, undead you summon, raise, or create gain the following additional benefits:

They add your Sorcerer Level to their hit point maximums
They add your proficiency bonus to their weapon damage rolls.

Not sure how balanced the ACF is, but it at least should give you ideas. If you like the concept I may whip one of these up for Law and Chaos as well, to allow more alignment/deity-based customization for all divine souls.

Grod_The_Giant
2019-01-19, 07:31 PM
I'm onboard for this. That's a definite missing link in 5e class design, I think-- since most archetypes don't start until 2nd or 3rd level, you can't use them for trade-offs.

Giegue
2019-01-19, 07:39 PM
I share the giant's sentiments here; if I didn't make it clear before, yes, I am 100% down for helping with the whole project, not just the one thing I posted already. Regardless, I'd still appreciate comments on it, though.

JNAProductions
2019-01-19, 07:48 PM
I support this in theory. In practice, you're gonna have to be careful that the options are equal-or at least close.

PhoenixPhyre
2019-01-19, 08:32 PM
One thing that would really help is brainstorming a list of concepts that would be supported if it weren't for a key feature. Ones that only take minor surgery are better =)

Ideas I've had:
Spell-less ranger -> trade out Spell-casting for ....?
Focused Moon Druid (mono-form) -> trade out Battle Wildshape (or whatever that level 2 feature is called) for a more focused, scaling thing. Transform into a wolf, but that wolf keeps getting better with levels in exchange for not being able to shift into any other combat form. Etc.
World-traveler rogue -> trade out Thieves' Cant for another language.


While these are not ported directly from 3.5e, I (and some other people) felt that ALL divine souls getting a healing bonus at 6th level felt extremely off. Why would, say, a Divine Soul whose magic comes from Bhaal or Orcus be better at healing? As a result, I made an ACF that allows evil divine souls to trade away the 6th level healing bonus for one of two features that better fit the concept of a divine soul of an evil deity....

Acolyte of Evil

As a Divine Soul who draws your power from an evil deity, your innate divine magic is focused more on harming your enemies or raising undead than healing allies. If the affinity for your Divine Soul magic is Evil, or is Law or Chaos but your deity's alignment is evil, you can take this ACF. What it grants you is detailed below..

Feature(s) Replaced: Empowered Healing

Feature(s) Gained: Your choice of Font of Necrosis or General of Undeath (Once chosen, your selection cannot be changed.)

Font of Necrosis. At 6th level, the dark divine magic that suffuses your being swells with power, bolstering your harmful magics. When you cast a sorcerer spell that deals Necrotic damage, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell. Additionally, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point when you do this to have that spell ignore resistance to necrotic damage.

General of Undeath. Starting at 6th level, you learn how to harness the sinister divine magic coursing through your blood to twist the undead animation spells you cast, allowing you to empower the undead they raise and use them to control more undead than normal. When you cast a Necromancy spell to reassert control over undead you created (Such as Animate Dead or Create Undead), you can expend any number of sorcery points to cast it as if using a spell slot one level higher for each point expended, to a maximum of one spell level higher than the highest spell level to which you have access. Additionally, undead you summon, raise, or create gain the following additional benefits:

They add your Sorcerer Level to their hit point maximums
They add your proficiency bonus to their weapon damage rolls.

Not sure how balanced the ACF is, but it at least should give you ideas. If you like the concept I may whip one of these up for Law and Chaos as well, to allow more alignment/deity-based customization for all divine souls.

I like the concept but would have to think about the implementation. Glad to see others have been thinking along these lines as well.



I'm onboard for this. That's a definite missing link in 5e class design, I think-- since most archetypes don't start until 2nd or 3rd level, you can't use them for trade-offs.

Right. Archetypes are specializations of a general theme. With ACFs I'd like to support more base concepts within the existing classes. For example, the cleric one I thought of was a more "priestly" caster--give up armor and weapons for extra spells. Getting them back would take a feat or a serious dip, so that's fine with me.


I support this in theory. In practice, you're gonna have to be careful that the options are equal-or at least close.

Yeah, although I'm not too worried as long as they're close. In general, I see fewer problems in 5e with people willing to twist the fluff into knots for power than there are in other editions, so giving up something key to one concept to support another is (often) a pretty fair trade. And lots of people are willing to be sub-optimal in return for a better-supported concept.

JNAProductions
2019-01-19, 08:41 PM
For Mono-Form Druid, I'd just write up more powerful wolves (in the example of a wolf druid). Moon Druids already kick a lot of butt, so giving them BETTER forms is likely to be too much, even if they are a little more limited.

PhoenixPhyre
2019-01-19, 08:50 PM
For Mono-Form Druid, I'd just write up more powerful wolves (in the example of a wolf druid). Moon Druids already kick a lot of butt, so giving them BETTER forms is likely to be too much, even if they are a little more limited.

I wasn't going more for outright better, just scaling (so you'd hit a CR 2 wolf at level 6, etc).

JNAProductions
2019-01-19, 08:51 PM
I wasn't going more for outright better, just scaling (so you'd hit a CR 2 wolf at level 6, etc).

Again-I'd just make a CR 2 wolf creature. I don't see why, to keep theme, you'd have to give up all your other options.

Edit: Since, of course, that's a straight downgrade if the power is the same but versatility is less.

PhoenixPhyre
2019-01-19, 09:18 PM
Again-I'd just make a CR 2 wolf creature. I don't see why, to keep theme, you'd have to give up all your other options.

Edit: Since, of course, that's a straight downgrade if the power is the same but versatility is less.

I was willing to up the power a little bit (past level 2-4) in exchange for the lost versatility. I was also thinking of expanding the range--making a "mono-druid" tradeoff for things like aberrations or dragons, things that druids can't shift into now. Those would require custom stat blocks though...that one was a major project and so I haven't started on it.

Edit: or split the difference--you can shift into any shape like a normal druid (ie max CR 1/2) + one leveling shape based on theme. So you'd have your utility forms and a combat form.

Giegue
2019-01-19, 10:27 PM
Whats your thoughts on certain classes getting a stat-swap? While it makes little sense for some (I.E. A wizard casting off anything other than Int makes little sense to me thematically) Pathfinder had a lot of archetypes (basicly PF's take on ACFs) that let casters make casting stat-swaps that made sense, or even let martials that use a mental stat use a different mental stat. For example, I can see an argument for having a Cha-cleric archetype, since Paladins drawing their divine magic from their own convictions, thus casting off Cha, provides a fluff justification (I.E, cha clerics get their divine magic in the same way paladins do, its just they forsake a Paladin's martial training to focus more on their casting.) and the "charismatic preacher who inspires the faithful and converts people to their faith" is common enough archetype in fantasy stuff that a Cha-cleric seems totally justifiable and something the game should have an option for.

By the same token, a Charisma-monk archetype also makes sense, as the "arrogant kung fun guy" or "anime hero" trope of a flashy martial artist who is less about enlightenment and more about using martial arts as a means to power (in the case of the arrogant kung fu guy trope) or to to fulfill some kind of personal desire (in the case of the anime hero trope) is also fairly common. In a similar vein, I could also see an Int monk archetype thats a highly technical martial artist that uses a more tactical and technique-focused style of martial arts, though thats a less common trope than the flashy cha-martial artist, I think.

Since Cha and Int are both mechanically weaker stats than Wis, I think that all three of these archetypes would not be OP from a balance perspective.

Thoughts?

Also @PhoniexPhyre: If/when you have the time would you adress the balance of my divine soul ACF and tell me whether you think there should be simmilar ACFs for law and chaos-affinity divine souls.


OH AND FOR EVERYBODY: While we're at it, I I got another rough idea for an archetype-specific ACF, but am not sure how to implement it. Basically, just like the healing power of a divine soul makes little sense for evil-affinity divine souls, I think that for people who want to play good-aligned necromancer wizards aka "white necromancers" the undead powers the school of necromancy gets are a tad limiting. I was thinking that a "White Necromancer" ACF that trades Undead Thralls and Control Undead from the school of necromancy for powers that let the wizard somehow use necromancy magics to heal allies would be fitting, but I am not sure how to implement that or how "necromantic healing" would even look mechanically? I am thinking maybe allowing the wizard to use vampiric touch at range and use it's heal effect on allies would be fitting for a 6th level "necromantic healing" feature, but may feel too sinister still for the "good guy necromancer who doesn't raise undead" concept. Thoughts on this are most appreciated!


Also, back for a general acfs...


Dynamic Priest

While most clerics draw divine power from their connection to a god, you instead draw yours from the strength of your convictions and passionate belief you have in your god and faith.

Feature(s) replaced: None

Feature(s) altered: Spellcasting, Divine Domain

Spellcasting Alteration: Charisma, not Wisdom, is your Spellcasting ability. You prepare spells equal to your level + your Charisma modifier instead of your level + your Wisdom modifier.

Divine Domain Alteration: Any feature of your Divine Domain that uses your Wisdom score or modifier instead uses your Charisma score or modifier.

Undead Rebuker

As an evil or at least morally questionable cleric, you learn how to rebuke and command undead rather than turn and destroy them. If you are an evil cleric, or netural-aligned cleric of an evil or neutral deity, you can take this ACF. What it grants you is detailed below:

Feature(s) replaced: Turn Undead

Feature(s) altered: Destroy Undead

New Feature: In place of the Turn Undead channel divinity, you gain the following Channel divinity option:

Rebuke Undead. As an action, each undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is rebuked for 1 minute or until it takes any damage. A rebuked creature falls to their knees (effectively becoming prone) as and cowers in awe of you. It cannot take actions, except the dash and dodge actions, or using its action to stand up from being prone (though doing so does not end the state of awe it is in, and therefore does not end this effect).

Destroy Undead Alteration: Instead of destroying creatures you turn, this feature command creatures that you rebuke. Any creature that this feature would normally destroy when turned instead falls under your control and may be commanded for 1 hour when rebuked , as-if they where created by an Animate Dead spell cast by you. Once this hour ends they become uncontrolled and hostile, unless once again controlled, or destroyed.

Forceful Fist

While most monks treat martial arts as a spiritual activity that helps them walk the long road to enlightenment, you have little time for such things. For you, martial arts is all about power, and as a result you draw your spiritual power and ability to use ki from sheer force of personality and your overwhelming belief in your own might.

Feature(s) lost: None

Features altered: Unarmored Defense, Ki, Monastic Tradition

Unarmored Defense Alteration: You use your Charisma modifier, not your Wisdom modifier, to set your AC with this feature.

Ki Alteration: You use your Charisma modifier, not your Wisdom modifier, to set your Ki DC.

Monastic Tradition Alteration: Any feature of your monastic tradition that uses your Wisdom score or modifier instead uses your Charisma score or modifier.

Kung-Fu Genius

While most monks treat martial arts as a spiritual activity that helps them walk the long road to enlightenment, you have little need for such things. Instead, you view your martial arts pratice as a sort of science, studying form, technique, and how to tap your body's inner ki reserves through means similar to how a wizard taps the weave.

Feature(s) lost: None

Features altered: Unarmored Defense, Ki, Monastic Tradition

Unarmored Defense Alteration: You use your Intelligence modifier, not your Wisdom modifier, to set your AC with this feature.

Ki Alteration: You use your Intelligence modifier, not your Wisdom modifier, to set your Ki DC.

Monastic Tradition Alteration: Any feature of your monastic tradition that uses your Wisdom score or modifier instead uses your Intelligence score or modifier.

Again, no idea how balanced these are. So thoughts are most appreciated!

PhoenixPhyre
2019-01-20, 12:34 PM
While these are not ported directly from 3.5e, I (and some other people) felt that ALL divine souls getting a healing bonus at 6th level felt extremely off. Why would, say, a Divine Soul whose magic comes from Bhaal or Orcus be better at healing? As a result, I made an ACF that allows evil divine souls to trade away the 6th level healing bonus for one of two features that better fit the concept of a divine soul of an evil deity....

Acolyte of Evil

As a Divine Soul who draws your power from an evil deity, your innate divine magic is focused more on harming your enemies or raising undead than healing allies. If the affinity for your Divine Magic feature is Evil, or is Law or Chaos but your deity's alignment is evil, you can take this ACF. What it grants you is detailed below..

Feature(s) Replaced: Empowered Healing

Feature(s) Gained: Your choice of Font of Necrosis or General of Undeath (Once chosen, your selection cannot be changed.)

Font of Necrosis. At 6th level, the dark divine magic that suffuses your being swells with power, bolstering your harmful magics. When you cast a sorcerer spell that deals Necrotic damage, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell. Additionally, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point when you do this to have that spell ignore resistance to necrotic damage.

General of Undeath. Starting at 6th level, you learn how to harness the sinister divine magic coursing through your blood to twist the undead animation spells you cast, allowing you to empower the undead they raise and use them to control more undead than normal. When you cast a Necromancy spell to reassert control over undead you created (Such as Animate Dead or Create Undead), you can expend any number of sorcery points to cast it as if using a spell slot one level higher for each point expended, to a maximum of one spell level higher than the highest spell level to which you have access. Additionally, undead you summon, raise, or create gain the following additional benefits:

They add your Sorcerer Level to their hit point maximums
They add your proficiency bonus to their weapon damage rolls.

Not sure how balanced the ACF is, but it at least should give you ideas. If you like the concept I may whip one of these up for Law and Chaos as well, to allow more alignment/deity-based customization for all divine souls.

Font of Necrosis: This is very weak for a sorcerer. They only have 4 PHB spells capable of dealing necrotic damage:
* Chill touch (cantrip)
* Blight (4th level)
* Circle of Death (6th level)
* Finger of Death (7th level)

Adding +4 or +5 damage to those is...tiny. And there aren't very many things that are resistant to necrotic (even a lot of undead aren't).

General of Undeath: Do sorcerers even get animate dead or create undead? They're not listed as doing so in the SRD (I'm AFB currently).

General thoughts: Both of these are very "undead" focused. It's not what I would think of when thinking of Evil gods, especially. The only "death" god in the default list is Myrkul, who really doesn't like undead much. Maybe something about causing (or benefiting from causing) pain and suffering to others? Something like "when you or an ally within X feet of you deals damage to an enemy, you can spend a sorcery point and use your reaction to reroll any of the damage dice?" Call it "Empowered Suffering"?

Giegue
2019-01-20, 12:52 PM
You forget, divine souls, which are the only sorcerers that can take that archetype anyway since trades away a divine soul feature and not a base sorc feature, get the entire cleric list....meaning they get animate dead/create undead and more necrotic damage spells like Inflict Wounds and a few others from that. Regardless, your right, potent necrosis is probally too weak, even with the added spells from the cleric list. Will likely change it for something along the lines you described above, and leave General of Undeath as the sole necro-themed option, since the whole point of the archetype was that it was meant to let you pick between "general evil-themed power focused on dealing damage" and "necro-themed evil power."

Does something along these lines look better?

Acolyte of Evil

As a Divine Soul who draws your power from an evil deity, your innate divine magic is focused more on harming your enemies or raising undead than healing allies. If the affinity for your Divine Magic feature is Evil, or is Law or Chaos but your deity's alignment is evil, you can take this ACF. What it grants you is detailed below..

Feature(s) Replaced: Empowered Healing

Feature(s) Gained: Your choice of Empower Suffering or General of Undeath (Once chosen, your selection cannot be changed.)

Empower Suffering. At 6th level, you learn how to harness the dark divine power that suffuses your being to more effectively harm your enemies. Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the amount of damage a spell deals, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated. You can use this feature only once per turn.

General of Undeath. Starting at 6th level, you learn how to harness the sinister divine magic coursing through your blood to twist the undead animation spells you cast, allowing you to empower the undead they raise and use them to control more undead than normal. When you cast a Necromancy spell to reassert control over undead you created (Such as Animate Dead or Create Undead), you can expend any number of sorcery points to cast it as if using a spell slot one level higher for each point expended, to a maximum of one spell level higher than the highest spell level to which you have access. Additionally, undead you summon, raise, or create gain the following additional benefits:

They add your Sorcerer Level to their hit point maximums
They add your proficiency bonus to their weapon damage rolls.

Also any comment on the other archetypes I posted?

PhoenixPhyre
2019-01-20, 01:27 PM
You forget, divine souls, which are the only sorcerers that can take that archetype anyway since trades away a divine soul feature and not a base sorc feature, get the entire cleric list....meaning they get animate dead/create undead and more necrotic damage spells like Inflict Wounds and a few others from that. Regardless, your right, potent necrosis is probally too weak, even with the added spells from the cleric list. Will likely change it for something along the lines you described above, and leave General of Undeath as the sole necro-themed option, since the whole point of the archetype was that it was meant to let you pick between "general evil-themed power focused on dealing damage" and "necro-themed evil power."

Does something along these lines look better?

Acolyte of Evil

As a Divine Soul who draws your power from an evil deity, your innate divine magic is focused more on harming your enemies or raising undead than healing allies. If the affinity for your Divine Magic feature is Evil, or is Law or Chaos but your deity's alignment is evil, you can take this ACF. What it grants you is detailed below..

Feature(s) Replaced: Empowered Healing

Feature(s) Gained: Your choice of Empower Suffering or General of Undeath (Once chosen, your selection cannot be changed.)

Empower Suffering. At 6th level, you learn how to harness the dark divine power that suffuses your being to more effectively harm your enemies. Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the amount of damage a spell deals, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated. You can use this feature only once per turn.

General of Undeath. Starting at 6th level, you learn how to harness the sinister divine magic coursing through your blood to twist the undead animation spells you cast, allowing you to empower the undead they raise and use them to control more undead than normal. When you cast a Necromancy spell to reassert control over undead you created (Such as Animate Dead or Create Undead), you can expend any number of sorcery points to cast it as if using a spell slot one level higher for each point expended, to a maximum of one spell level higher than the highest spell level to which you have access. Additionally, undead you summon, raise, or create gain the following additional benefits:

They add your Sorcerer Level to their hit point maximums
They add your proficiency bonus to their weapon damage rolls.

Also any comment on the other archetypes I posted?

Ah yes, I forgot about that fact. The General of Undeath is basically the Necromancer Wizard class feature (of about the same level), isn't it? Again, I'm AFB, but make sure it doesn't step on their toes by being bigger or earlier.

I'll take a look at the others later when I have my books. Probably next week sometime--my books are at school (where I normally play).

Giegue
2019-01-20, 01:31 PM
General of Undeath is kind of the wizard feature; its a more sorcererous take on it, essentially. The wizard feature gives the same stat bumps to undead as general of undeath, but just lets animate dead create (and assert control over) one additional undead (per-cast...so cast it twice and they could get four undead etc...). The sorcerer version meanwhile costs a resource (sorcerery points) while the wizard one is totally free, but in return for that resource demand lets the sorcerer control more undead than the wizard if their willing to dump the points into it. (The wizard also has a MAJOR advantage in their capstone, control undead...so I think they balance out against each other in the end)

PhoenixPhyre
2019-01-20, 07:39 PM
So stepping back to the general level--here's a list of core class features by class. I've pre-emptively removed ASIs from consideration because they're so generic. I'm also going to limit this to level 5 features and below, because I feel ACFs should be core changes in the archetypal concept, and all that stuff should come online by tier 2. I could be persuaded otherwise, though.

Any notes follow each feature. Right now, I'm only looking at base-class features.

Ones marked in red are dangerous to substitute out wholesale without substantial edits to the whole class. Edits are possible, but usually on a like-for-like basis (replacing one class's spellcasting with another, changing ability scores, etc).



Proficiencies: Light/Medium/shields. Simple/Martial. STR/CON saves
Class Skills: 2 from Animal Handling, Athletics, Intimidation, Nature, Perception, Survival
Rage (1). Hard to remove, easy to tweak
Unarmored Defense (1).
Reckless Attack (2)
Danger Sense (2)
Extra Attack (5)
Fast Movement (5)





Proficiencies: Light. Rogue weapons. Three musical instruments. DEX/CHA saves.
Class Skills: 3 from any.
Spellcasting (1). Full caster, CHA based. Spells Known from Bard list. Ritual casting (known only).
Bardic Inspiration (1) Heavy sub-class dependence on BI.
Jack of All Trades (2)
Song of Rest (2)
Expertise (3, 10)
Font of Inspiration (5) Short Rest BI is essential for sub-classes especially.





Proficiencies: Light/Medium/Shields. Simple. WIS/CHA saves.
Class Skills: 2 from History, Insight, Medicine, Persuasion, Religion.
Spellcasting (1). Full caster, WIS based. Spells Prepared from entire Cleric list. Ritual casting (Prepared only).
Channel Divinity (2). Turn Undead is much easier to sub out, but the framework needs to remain for subclass use.
Destroy Undead (5)





Proficiencies: Light/Medium/Shields (no metal armor). Druid weapons. Herbalism Kit. INT/WIS saves.
Class Skills: 2 from Arcana, Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Religion, Survival.
Spellcasting (1). Full caster, WIS based. Spells Prepared from entire Druid list. Ritual casting (prepared only).
Druidic (1)
Wild Shape (2). Alternate uses for the framework will work, except for Circle of the Moon.





Proficiencies: All armor. All weapons. STR/CON saves.
Class Skills: 2 from Acrobatics, Animal handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Survival.
Fighting Style (1). Not nearly as fixed as spellcasting for the others, for example.
Second Wind (1)
Action Surge (2, 17)
Extra Attack (5, 11, 20)





Proficiencies: No armor. Simple/shortswords. One artisans tool or music instrument. STR/DEX saves.
Class Skills: 2 from Acrobatics, Athletics, History, Insight, Religion, Stealth.
Unarmored Defense (1)
Martial Arts (1)
Ki (2). The framework is essential, the 3 sub features less so.
Unarmored Movement (2)
Deflect Missiles (3)
Slow Fall (4)
Extra Attack (5)
Stunning Strike (5). I'd love to be able to ditch this, but...





Proficiencies: All armor. All weapons. WIS/CHA saves.
Class Skills: 2 from Athletics, Insight, Intimidation, Medicine, Persuasion, Religion.
Divine Sense (1)
Lay on Hands (1)
Fighting Style (2)
Spellcasting (2). Half caster, CHA based. Spells Prepared from entire Paladin list. Removing this requires also changing Divine Smite.
Channel Divinity: Turn Undead (3).
Divine Smite (2).
Divine Health (3)
Extra Attack (5)





Proficiencies: Light/Medium/Shields. All weapons. STR/DEX saves.
Class Skills: 3 from Animal Handling, Athletics, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception, Stealth, Survival.
Favored Enemy (1, 6, 14)
Natural Explorer (1, 6, 10)
Fighting Style (2)
Spellcasting (2). Half caster, WIS based. Spells known from Ranger list. Few spells.
Primal Awareness (3)
Extra Attack (5)


Poor rangers...there's so little in-class direct synergy here.




Proficiencies: Light. Rogue weapons. Thieves' tools. DEX/INT saves.
Class Skills: 4 from Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, Stealth.
Expertise (1, 6)
Sneak Attack (1).
Thieves' Cant (1)
Cunning Action (2)
Uncanny Dodge (5)





Proficiencies: None. Wizard weapons. CON/CHA saves.
Class Skills: 2 from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion, Religion.
Spellcasting (1). Full caster, CHA based. Spells Known from Sorcerer list. Few spells.
Font of Inspiration (2). Sorcery points are a key resource.
Metamagic (3)


Not much that can be wholesale replaced here. Tweaks, sure.




Proficiencies: Light. Simple. Three musical instruments. WIS/CHA saves.
Class Skills: 2 from Arcana, Deception, History, Intimidation, Investigation, Nature, Religion
Pact Magic (1). Warlock caster (9th level spells, SR recovery, no slots of 6+), CHA based. Spells known from Warlock list.
Eldritch Invocations (2).
Pact Boon (3). Many invocations interact with the boon.





Proficiencies: None. Wizard weapons. INT/WIS saves.
Class Skills: 2 from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Religion.
Spellcasting (1). Full caster, INT based. Spellbook/prepared from Wizard list. Ritual casting (spell-book). Can add spells from scrolls.
Arcane Recovery (1)


Wow...wizards only really have 1.5 class features before 5th level (other than ASIs). Spellcasting and a little boost to that. Add in one from the subclass and they're the winners in the "no class feature" contest. Their next headline base-class feature isn't until 18th level.

JMS
2019-01-20, 09:46 PM
Unarmored movement might be fine to replace... don't see what makes it critical?
Also, some contributions


Proficiencies: Light Armor, Simple Weapons, INT/WIS saves
Class Skills: 2 from Arcana, History, Insight, Medicine, Nature, Perception, and Religion
Psionics: Basically Spellcasting with some weird things. Really a Full Caster till 11th
Mystical Recovery (2). Usefull, but not amazing
Telepathy (2) One of THE reasons to play a Mystic, but something equally awesome might fit.
Strength of Mind (4).




Proficiencies: Light/Medium/Shields. All weapons. STR/DEX saves.
Class Skills: 3 from Animal Handling, Athletics, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception, Stealth, Survival.
Favored Enemy (1, 6) - Now a big combat buff.
Natural Explorer (1) - S
Fighting Style (2)
Spellcasting (2). Half caster, WIS based. Spells known from Ranger list. Few spells.
Primal Awareness (3)


I'm not doing the Artificer

SkipSandwich
2019-01-21, 11:30 AM
I wonder, would it be fair to trade a Fighting Style for the monk's Martial Arts feature?

Since the main draw of MA is the unarmed bonus action attack, the closest Fighting style to compare to is probably Duelist with its damage bonus.

Duelist is +2 damage per hit with qualifying weapons (max 1d8 base, for ave damage per hit of 6.5). Naturally, the more attacks you have, the more you benefit from this bonus.

The MA damage die starts at 1d4(2.5 ave damage) and goes up to 1d10(5.5ave), but it also requires a separate attack roll and so may not always apply. Its also a non-magical attack that some targets may resist or have immunity to if you dont also swap in Ki Empowered Strikes.

Given this, it seems a fair trade.

PhoenixPhyre
2019-01-21, 11:35 AM
I wonder, would it be fair to trade a Fighting Style for the monk's Martial Arts feature?

Since the main draw of MA is the unarmed bonus action attack, the closest Fighting style to compare to is probably Duelist with its damage bonus.

Duelist is +2 damage per hit with qualifying weapons (max 1d8 base, for ave damage per hit of 6.5). Naturally, the more atrack you have, the more you benefit from this bonus.

The MA damage die starts at 1d4(2.5 ave damage) and goes up to 1d10(5.5ave), but it also requires a separate attack roll and so may not always apply. Its also a non-magical attack that some targets may resist or have immunity to if you dont also swap in Ki Empowered Strikes.

Given this, it seems a fair trade.

I'd be wary. For comparison, one of the primary draws of PAM is the bonus action 1d4 attack. Getting a scaling bonus action attack...that's big. Especially if you can stack it with 4 attacks and action surge. It's dual wielding, but better.

SkipSandwich
2019-01-21, 12:01 PM
I'd be wary. For comparison, one of the primary draws of PAM is the bonus action 1d4 attack. Getting a scaling bonus action attack...that's big. Especially if you can stack it with 4 attacks and action surge. It's dual wielding, but better.

The FS bonuses effecively scale with # of attacks though.

Greatsword fighter with GWF deals an average of 8.3+5 damage per hit(13.3) x 4 attacks for a total of 53.2 damage

Duelist fighter with longsword deals 6.5+5 damage per hit(11.5) x 4 attacks for an total of 46 damage

Martial arts Fighter deals 5.5+5 damage per hit(10.5) x 5 attacks for a total of 52.5 damage.

So at best you are slightly behind what a Two-Handed weapon build is putting out BEFORE factoring in Great Weapon Master. You do outclass TWF but thats more a function of TWF being underwhelming to begin with.

Your offense is better than Duelist, but again, Duelist's bonus damage can be used with magic weapons to bypass Resistance, MA cannot without the Ki Empowered Strikes feature.