Planning a Scarred Witch Doctor, did I miss anything important?

[Krezdorim]

Hello, I have been lurking for some time now and finally have something worth posting.

I have been asked to join a game that needs an arcane caster as well as some support and healing.

As such I decided to bring a Witch and finally fulfill my desire to go with a Scarred Witch Doctor.

So far I have planned to go with Half-Orc and switch racial things for City-Raised (Weapon Familiarity -> profiency with Whips and Longswords) and Sacred Tattoo (which I think fits well with the ritual scarring).
As for feat I am still not sure if I should go Extra Hex: Healing/Evil Eye or Improved Initiative.
Traits: Reactionary. I leave the second open in case the group needs a certain skill.
Skills: Spellcraft, Kn(Arcana) (at least, don't know how much Int I will have)
Spells: Snowball, Cure Light Wounds, Obscuring Mist and Hex Vulnerability.
Patron: Deception (I just love Invisibility)

Since stats are most likely rolled I will assign them: CON (+2 from race) > DEX > INT/WIS > STR/CHA
Feat/Spell recommendations welcome.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Welcome to the playground! I did notice a few things about your proposed character I'd like to point out.

First, the scarred witch doctor is a archetype available only to orcs. Half-orcs are treated as orcs for the purposes of effects (such as spells). But an archetype is not an effect, and thus half-orcs are not the same as orcs in the case. If you're DM is cool with you taking the archetype, then go for it. But by the rules you would have to be a full-blooded orc to play a scarred witch doctor.

Secondly, as a witch you'll find that you have very little spell slots compared to other prepared casters, especially at lower levels. Damaging spells (like snowball) are not going to be worth the spell slot. I would recommend adding more buff spells to you're repertoire, like Enlarge Person, or a battle field control spells, like Sleep.

Lastly, and probably most important, you should be prioritizing intelligence above any other stat. It governs how many spells you can cast per day, how difficult they are to resist, and it affects how difficult your hexes are to resist. I would recommend something like this. Int > Con > Dex > Wis > Cha > str

As for feats, Extra Hex is just really, really good. You can't go wrong with improved initiative, but pick it up down the line once you have a good number of hexes known.

[Krezdorim]

Welcome to the playground! I did notice a few things about your proposed character I'd like to point out.

Thank you!


First, the scarred witch doctor is a archetype available only to orcs. Half-orcs are treated as orcs for the purposes of effects (such as spells). But an archetype is not an effect, and thus half-orcs are not the same as orcs in the case. If you're DM is cool with you taking the archetype, then go for it. But by the rules you would have to be a full-blooded orc to play a scarred witch doctor.

Cleared with DM and approved, half-races (as well as distinct Aasimar/Tiefling variants) can pick Racial Archetypes.


Secondly, as a witch you'll find that you have very little spell slots compared to other prepared casters, especially at lower levels. Damaging spells (like snowball) are not going to be worth the spell slot. I would recommend adding more buff spells to you're repertoire, like Enlarge Person, or a battle field control spells, like Sleep.

Noted. Will delay grabbing Snowball then for Sleep and pick Enlarge Person from higher Con.


Lastly, and probably most important, you should be prioritizing intelligence above any other stat. It governs how many spells you can cast per day, how difficult they are to resist, and it affects how difficult your hexes are to resist. I would recommend something like this. Int > Con > Dex > Wis > Cha > str

I thought the Scarred Witchdoctor is able to use Con instead of Int for everything considered spell casting?


As for feats, Extra Hex is just really, really good. You can't go wrong with improved initiative, but pick it up down the line once you have a good number of hexes known.
Which Hex would you recommend then? Healing (would mean I can trade out CLW) or one of the debuff-y ones, or Flight?

[Firest Kathon]

I thought the Scarred Witchdoctor is able to use Con instead of Int for everything considered spell casting?

This has been errata'd. The current version (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc/scarred-witch-doctor-witch-orc/) lets you treat your Int as 2 higher:


A scarred witch doctor treats her Intelligence score as 2 points higher when determining the highest level of spells she can cast, the number of spells she can cast per day, her spell save DCs, her number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her hexes determined by her Intelligence.

[Krezdorim]

This has been errata'd. The current version lets you treat your Int as 2 higher:

I have to check with my DM about that. Which version is better? Being able to reach a 22 Int at first level seems quite strong but being able to cast from Con seems like a stronger option considering that Witches have bad fort save progression and the lowest HD.

(Had do scrub the link due to low post count)

[Particle_Man]

Pre errata is more powerful. That is why it got errata’d.

[Ironsides]

Pre errata is more powerful. That is why it got errata’d.

This is very true but there’s a corner case of a half-orc putting their racial bonus in Intelligence to get an effective 22 Intelligence at first level. 23 if you go with an older half-orc.

[Dekion]

Cleared with DM and approved, half-races (as well as distinct Aasimar/Tiefling variants) can pick Racial Archetypes.

Actually, this didn't have to be cleared for Half-Orcs, a FAQ on the Paizo site stated that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, and traits, etc, as if they were a full member of both races. (this is almost verbatim as to the FAQ.) And this was a correction to prior "rulings."

[Geddy2112]

For hexes, there is no way you can beat slumber, which is by far the best hex in the game. It is the at will save or lose that affects creatures of any HD. It is supernatural, meaning it cannot be dispelled and it has no obvious signs you are using it. Get it, love it, but don't spam it too much or your DM will simply stop throwing enemies at you that can be put to sleep.

If you take slumber at 1st level, you don't need sleep as a spell. Sleep is only marginally more useful as a burst of weak creatures, and you won't ever use sleep past level 4ish making it somewhat deadweight. You can probably also just grab daze as a cantrip for early levels and between that and slumber you are gold. If it is pre eratta snowball is good for the fatigue debuff as well as damage. Damage spells are fine so long as they also debuff. Mount is a really good utility spell, as is enlarge/reduce person.

Generally, hexes are more powerful than feats so a couple of extra hexes is always a good idea. You can't go wrong with improved initiative though.

Get a wand of CLW as soon as possible, but since you hard know the spell I would pass on the healing hex. Evil eye is good for debuffing but misfortune is generally stronger overall as rerolls are better than -2 or -4. You probably want cackle if you go that route, and fortune as well. Flight is a great hex to grab anytime, but it really shines at 5th level. Water lung is also a decent choice.

[Florian]

Witch is an interesting class because, for a full caster, you actually have something like at will abilities that can be spammed and stay useful as you level up, with spells being your fall back option, so it´s ok to have a reduced spells per day table when compared to other full casters.

Slumber is already a power house, the combination of Fortune, Misfortune and Cackle is quite powerful and gives you something to do in combat, making Extra Hex more or less mandatory in the lower levels to get them all as fast as possible. Keep on mind that Retraining is always an option to swap them out later, when enough regular hex choices are available. Toughness is also an interesting choice for a Witch, as it can be that one is pretty close to the front line and familiar HP are calculated based on the Witch and you don't want to see your spell book killed, right?

[TheFamilarRaven]

Actually, this didn't have to be cleared for Half-Orcs, a FAQ on the Paizo site stated that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, and traits, etc, as if they were a full member of both races. (this is almost verbatim as to the FAQ.) And this was a correction to prior "rulings."

I was not aware of this. I'll have to look into that. Thanks.




Noted. Will delay grabbing Snowball then for Sleep and pick Enlarge Person from higher Con.

When I played a witch I found that my trusty crossbow was usually better if i needed to hurt something compared to any of my offensive spell options. (At low levels).


I thought the Scarred Witchdoctor is able to use Con instead of Int for everything considered spell casting?

As others have said, the archetype got errata'd. So that'll be another check with the DM to see "witch" version you're using.


Which Hex would you recommend then? Healing (would mean I can trade out CLW) or one of the debuff-y ones, or Flight?

I am a big fan of the bread and butter of the witch class. Misfortune/Evil Eye Hex plus Cackle is a very effective debuff combo, assuming you're not going to be fighting a lot of enemies that are immune to mind-affecting abilities. Likewise, Fortune Hex is also very good, especially if you have time to use Fortune plus Cackle and put the effect on multiple party members before a big fight. That, and the Slumber Hex is just straight up powerful. It effectively takes a target out of the fight on a failed save. Worst case, the target is woken up a round later by an ally, which basically wastes that creature's turn.

Healing Hex might be worth it if early on if your party lacks a reliable source of healing. It effectively gives you one extra spell slot per person in your party dedicated to CLW (or CMW at 5th), and you'll probably find that a wand of CLW will end up replacing it later on. Flight is an excellent hex it's just not something you need at level 1. This is why the Extra Hex feat is sooo damn good. It literally gives you more class features.

[Meditation]

Pre errata is more powerful. That is why it got errata’d.

This is inaccurate. The errata was due to a marketing push.

Paizo was introducing the Kinetecist, billed as being the only Con-based caster. Problem was, there was already a Con-based caster: the Scarred Witch Doctor. So Paizo destroyed the latter.

If that seems dishonest, it is. You paid money for a book and Paizo invalidated portions of that book in order to promote another book. Paizo has done this before and the motivation is shockingly transparent.

The new version of the Scarred Witch Doctor is actually much stronger than the old since it is much easier to optimize Int on a Half-Orc caster than Con -- it's just less interesting and the change eliminates a huge wealth of builds. Which is the point.

If the Con-based nature of the archetype is a draw, just houserule that the errata will be ignored and use the printed version. As I mentioned, though this is still a strong archetype, such a rule will actually power-down the build (at high levels of optimization, at least), while making very unusual builds viable.

[Krezdorim]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

After talking to the DM, he said I can ignore errata for now (unless it actually fixes something).

So I will use the pre-errata version because I like the flavour more and this is what I have planned so far.
Half-Orc alternate racial traits: City-Raised for (longsword prof and Kn:Local) and Sacred Tattoo
Feat: Extra Hex: Slumber.
Traits: Reactionary, [any Skill-based Trait needed]
Patron: Deception
Spells: CLW, Enlarge Person, Obscuring Mist, Hex Vunlerability
Skills: Kn:Arcana, Spellcraft, [needed skill], Intimidate/Bluff/etc.

[Florian]

I´d advice using the Mystic H-Orc sub-race and the Shaman Enhancement ART instead of City Raised. You will want to upgrade to Improved Familiar asap and adding a flat +2 to Des or Con helps your familiar survive.

For spells, drop Hex Vulnerability and don't take any spells that work in conjuration with hexes. The whole point is to use hexes to save up your spell slots for when they are needed.

As you're playing support, bite the bullet and start with CLW instead, you will need it, try to learn either Celestial or Infernal Healing next up, then Ray of Enfeeblement and/or Ray of Sickening.

[Krezdorim]

I´d advice using the Mystic H-Orc sub-race and the Shaman Enhancement ART instead of City Raised. You will want to upgrade to Improved Familiar asap and adding a flat +2 to Des or Con helps your familiar survive.

For spells, drop Hex Vulnerability and don't take any spells that work in conjuration with hexes. The whole point is to use hexes to save up your spell slots for when they are needed.

As you're playing support, bite the bullet and start with CLW instead, you will need it, try to learn either Celestial or Infernal Healing next up, then Ray of Enfeeblement and/or Ray of Sickening.

Sound good. How does my Mask (the familiar) interact with Improved Familiar though? Can't find any rulings if it even counts as a familiar for such purposes.

[Psyren]

This is inaccurate. The errata was due to a marketing push.

Source?


I was not aware of this. I'll have to look into that. Thanks.

Here you go: (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qf9)

"Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs."

[grarrrg]

I´d advice using the Mystic H-Orc sub-race and the Shaman Enhancement ART instead of City Raised. You will want to upgrade to Improved Familiar asap and adding a flat +2 to Des or Con helps your familiar survive.

You can't mix Mystic and Shaman Enhancement. Mystic adds Shaman's Apprentice, and both Apprentice and Enhancement replace Intimidating.


How does my Mask (the familiar) interact with Improved Familiar though? Can't find any rulings if it even counts as a familiar for such purposes.

It doesn't. They presumably forgot that Scarred Witch Doctor trades out the normal familiar.
Likewise, forget about Shaman Enhancement, unless you want to find a different way to get a furry friend.

[Andreaz]

Source?Dunno about the source on the motivation for the errata, but it did launch at the same day the kineticist book released.

[Krazzman]

For traits I would recommend the Hedge Wizard trait to grab a cost reducer for enchanting your mask. And unless someone else did it grab Craft Magic Arms and Armor if you can expect enough downtime.

The trait to raise your CL (Magical lineage) might be worth a shot if you plan to pick a Prestige Class. If you like the tattoo stuff the Tattoo Mystic might be worth to consider.

[Psyren]

Dunno about the source on the motivation for the errata, but it did launch at the same day the kineticist book released.

I searched and did not find a dev post stating this to be the intent, so I was seeing if Meditation had one available. It seemed a bit on the tinfoil hat side to me.

@OP: Metamagic feats are always useful for a primary caster unless you expect metamagic rods to be readily available.

[Florian]

It doesn't. They presumably forgot that Scarred Witch Doctor trades out the normal familiar.
Likewise, forget about Shaman Enhancement, unless you want to find a different way to get a furry friend.

More or less. I was musing about some of the options before heading off to night shift and hit Submit on a not finished post. Basically, I was thinking about the Mask being really weak and the best option is to turn it into a Visage of the Bound and what to make out of it.

[Andreaz]

Yeah I'm fine with considering this tinfoilery. That single bit of circumstancial evidence is just tasty enough to keep that going.

[Rynjin]

Source? [RE: Nerfing SWD before Kineticist]

Yeah I'm fine with considering this tinfoilery. That single bit of circumstancial evidence is just tasty enough to keep that going.

More than a single piece, it's simple pattern recognition. It happens any time a new option comes out that has awkward overlap with older options. Animal Companions (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ne7)were nerfed right before the Cavalier was released, Enchantment spells/stealth casting (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tza) were nerfed right before Occult Adventures came out (and also not long before Ultimate Intrigue introduced specific Feats to remove these new drawbacks), and so on.

Scarred Witch Doctor is the least clear example of this, honestly. From what I recall there was also an issue with the archetype being taken too much in Society play, where the lower OP levels made it seem way stronger than it actually was.

@OP: You still want a DECENT Int at least. WHile Con is your casting stat with pre-nerf SWD as I recall you still use your Int to determine your bonus spells per day.

[Psyren]

More than a single piece, it's simple pattern recognition. It happens any time a new option comes out that has awkward overlap with older options. Animal Companions (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ne7)were nerfed right before the Cavalier was released, Enchantment spells/stealth casting (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tza) were nerfed right before Occult Adventures came out (and also not long before Ultimate Intrigue introduced specific Feats to remove these new drawbacks), and so on.

Scarred Witch Doctor is the least clear example of this, honestly. From what I recall there was also an issue with the archetype being taken too much in Society play, where the lower OP levels made it seem way stronger than it actually was.

That sounds more like "this is something we've had an issue with for awhile, and are taking this opportunity to fix it" than "if we leave this cool thing lying around then the obviously worse new thing we're trying to sell more copies of will be even less popular! Quick, distract the sheep!" Which is the more malicious/baseless impression I got from Meditation's post.

And at low-mid levels, I can see why Con-based casting/hexes could be problematic. Again, raw power isn't the problem (the new SWD on a Half-Orc base has a higher ceiling), but the ability to minimize typical caster drawbacks similar to the Synthesist can leave a more negative impression on groups that are still on the fence about PF as a whole.

Anyway, it's a moot point for this thread since the OP got the old one grandfathered in and their GM knows the risks.

[Meditation]

That sounds more like "this is something we've had an issue with for awhile, and are taking this opportunity to fix it"

Source?

There is no evidence that supports that conclusion, while its opposite is a consistent pattern of behavior that is consistent with a coherent motive. Psyren is projecting malicious conspiracy theory here and running afoul of Occam’s. It is shockingly uncharitable to assume that the consumer is somehow having badwrongfun with the play materials that had to be corrected, with no basis in fact, when there is a conflict of interest between the consumer and the product producer that is beyond debate. Well, maybe before the quoted post.

[Psyren]

Source?

You made the initial positive claim.

[Andreaz]

Watch out for pareidolia. I'll give you that multiple nerfs coupled with releases of things that would be naturally compared against what was nerfed is fishy.

But are these the entire sampling of "Nerfs that happened together with releases"? Gotta check that and find, at least, the ratio, before you can say it's a trend instead of chance.

[Krezdorim]

Holy moly.... we did rolled stats and I ended up with: 18 17 16 14 10 10.

I put them like this:
Str: 14, Dex: 17, Con 20 (+2 from Half-Orc), Int 16 (Skill points), Wis 10, Cha 10.
But I am thinking about switching the Str to Wis...
Traits I ended up with Reactionary and Slippery.

Somehow I ended up not having Intimidate as a class skill.
@Florian? What/how can I make something better out of my Mask?

So far I spend my 105 Gold on the following equipment:
Haramaki, Witch Kit, Greataxe, some other odds/ends, and a Crossbow with some bolts

[thompur]

Holy moly.... we did rolled stats and I ended up with: 18 17 16 14 10 10.

I put them like this:
Str: 14, Dex: 17, Con 20 (+2 from Half-Orc), Int 16 (Skill points), Wis 10, Cha 10.
But I am thinking about switching the Str to Wis...
Traits I ended up with Reactionary and Slippery.

Somehow I ended up not having Intimidate as a class skill.
@Florian? What/how can I make something better out of my Mask?

So far I spend my 105 Gold on the following equipment:
Haramaki, Witch Kit, Greataxe, some other odds/ends, and a Crossbow with some bolts

Nice! A couple of things from someone who played a "classic" Scarred Witch Doctor" as you are: At 1st level, you don't yet have the Hex class feature,(getting Scar Shield instead), so you can't take extra hex until 3rd, so take improved init.(unless, of course, your GM lets you count Scar Shield as a hex). Also, your con doesn't count in determining bonus spells. That's still int. I'm going to disagree a bit with some of the above posters: take a few offensive damage spells (maybe one per level). If you don't, you may be seriously gimped against undead, and other types immune to mind affecting.
Edit: And yes, switch Str/Wis.
As you'll likely be going first in initiative, if you take my advice:smallwink:, against solo monsters, don't lead with slumber, hit them with evil eye or misfortune. That way, if the rest of the party still can't take it out, then put it to sleep. :smallbiggrin:

[Krezdorim]

Nice! A couple of things from someone who played a "classic" Scarred Witch Doctor" as you are: At 1st level, you don't yet have the Hex class feature,(getting Scar Shield instead), so you can't take extra hex until 3rd, so take improved init.(unless, of course, your GM lets you count Scar Shield as a hex). Also, your con doesn't count in determining bonus spells. That's still int. I'm going to disagree a bit with some of the above posters: take a few offensive damage spells (maybe one per level). If you don't, you may be seriously gimped against undead, and other types immune to mind affecting.
Edit: And yes, switch Str/Wis.
As you'll likely be going first in initiative, if you take my advice:smallwink:, against solo monsters, don't lead with slumber, hit them with evil eye or misfortune. That way, if the rest of the party still can't take it out, then put it to sleep. :smallbiggrin:

So should I also switch Int and Wis to get Int to 18 at level 4? Luckily my DM ruled that I get bonus spells from Con. So I can choose between 9 Level 1 spells each morning to mainly pick CLW anyway.

My DM ruled that Scarshield is a Hex. So I rather take slumber for now instead of Evil Eye/Misfortune (which will follow at level 3/4 since I will take Healing Hex at level 2).

[thompur]

So should I also switch Int and Wis to get Int to 18 at level 4? Luckily my DM ruled that I get bonus spells from Con. So I can choose between 9 Level 1 spells each morning to mainly pick CLW anyway.

My DM ruled that Scarshield is a Hex. So I rather take slumber for now instead of Evil Eye/Misfortune (which will follow at level 3/4 since I will take Healing Hex at level 2).

No, leave the 17 in Dex. You need the AC and Ref more than skill points. I love the healing hex. Even if you have a cleric in the party, it can be really useful. I had a witch in a scenario where she was attending a wedding that got attacked by swarms, and she was able to heal everybody without wasting anything. The town was so grateful that she was given the key to the city!:smallbiggrin:

[Florian]

@Florian? What/how can I make something better out of my Mask?

At 5th level, you get the ability to enhance your mask as if you had Craft Wondrous Items for this purpose.

The Visage of the Bound is a ridiculously strong item because it allows you to store a summoned creature in it and access its SU and SLA abilities as if they were yours.

What I was musing about in regard to the Improved Familiar feat was asking your gm whether it would be cool to take the feat and permanently imbue the Visage with the abilities of an improved familiar.

Even besides that, once you can get multiple versions of a creature via summons, the Visage rocks.

[Krezdorim]

At 5th level, you get the ability to enhance your mask as if you had Craft Wondrous Items for this purpose.

The Visage of the Bound is a ridiculously strong item because it allows you to store a summoned creature in it and access its SU and SLA abilities as if they were yours.

What I was musing about in regard to the Improved Familiar feat was asking your gm whether it would be cool to take the feat and permanently imbue the Visage with the abilities of an improved familiar.

Even besides that, once you can get multiple versions of a creature via summons, the Visage rocks.

Wait a minute. I could Summon a Celestial Badger and get the Smite Evil ability? That would be awesomely... underwhelming for me since I am not planning to focus on Summoning and as such would have only low-ish number of rounds for it.

[Florian]

Wait a minute. I could Summon a Celestial Badger and get the Smite Evil ability? That would be awesomely... underwhelming for me since I am not planning to focus on Summoning and as such would have only low-ish number of rounds for it.

The Visage has no upper limit on what level of summons it could store.