Vengeance Paladin: PAM + Sentinel vs PAM + GWM vs Greatsword (no PAM)

[Mitsu]

Hi,

I will start soon campaign. I chose Variant Human with 16, 10, 13, 8, 10, 16 stats. I want to take RES (CON) in future to even that.

Now I would like to ask what is better build to go for. I asked my DM about GWF and he said I can reroll smites too. That is why I want to use 2h weapon.

So PAM + Sentinel vs PAM + GWM or use Greatsword instead?

What do you think is better?

Thank you.

[LudicSavant]

Hi,

I will start soon campaign. I chose Variant Human with 16, 10, 13, 8, 10, 16 stats. I want to take RES (CON) in future to even that.

Now I would like to ask what is better build to go for. I asked my DM about GWF and he said I can reroll smites too. That is why I want to use 2h weapon.

So PAM + Sentinel vs PAM + GWM or use Greatsword instead?

What do you think is better?

Thank you.

I tend to recommend PAM over a greatsword for a Vengeance Paladin, because Vengeance Paladins can get a lot of mileage out of extra attacks.

[Mitsu]

I tend to recommend PAM over a greatsword for a Vengeance Paladin, because Vengeance Paladins get a lot of benefit from getting extra attacks.

Thank you. But should I go Sentinel or GWM with it?

Also - do you think 3 levels of Fighter for Champion 19-20 critical hits, Defense style + Action Surge is a good idea?

[djreynolds]

I tend to recommend PAM over a greatsword for a Vengeance Paladin, because Vengeance Paladins get a lot of benefit from getting extra attacks.

Yes, PAM might be a better choice.

It also is all dependent on what spells you'll concentrate on.

Bless + vow of enmity = easier time using GWM. But this works with any heavy weapon. And you can do this at 3rd level.

If you are unsure of polearm vs great sword, take GWM and then wait to see.

It really depends on your spell usage. And who else in the party? And to understand party tactics change with level ups.

A cleric from 1st to 4th level may spam bless, and you are able to use shield of faith.

But at 5th level, that cleric may now spam spirit guardians. Now what are you casting.

For GWM, I prefer devotion paladin as it is good for 1 minute versus everyone.

What spells will you use? If you use hunters mark, then do not select GWM. Grab sentinel and PAM. Hence LudicSavant's recommendation

[LudicSavant]

Thank you. But should I go Sentinel or GWM with it?

Sentinel's usefulness depends on party composition (how often do you expect to have someone adjacent to you getting hit?) and the types of enemies you'll be facing.

Sentinel can be truly devastating to melee brute enemies who need to get within 5 feet to attack and don't have any special movement options. However, I feel like these are pretty much the easiest enemies for a Paladin to fight anyways, and tend to prefer getting some more utility against enemies that are more challenging for Paladins.

Great Weapon Master isn't quite as beneficial for Paladins as it is for, say, Fighters. The reason for this is because the more damage is riding on each individual hit, the more you are risking with that -5. And the less attacks you get, the less times you're applying that +10. When you're going full smite mode, choosing to use GWM might actually decrease your DPR.

That said, with regular access to Advantage and other accuracy boosters, GWM can make a pretty considerable increase in your resourceless or low resource damage, helping you to save your slots for when you really need 'em. If you fight a lot of encounters in a day this is very nice.

Both can be a decent choice depending on your priorities and the kind of party and campaign you have.


Also - do you think 3 levels of Fighter for Champion 19-20 critical hits, Defense style + Action Surge is a good idea?

No.

[djreynolds]

Who else is in the party?

Are you maxing out stats? Or just want feats?

Will you multiclass?

[Mitsu]

Yes, PAM might be a better choice.

It also is all dependent on what spells you'll concentrate on.

Bless + vow of enmity = easier time using GWM. But this works with any heavy weapon. And you can do this at 3rd level.

If you are unsure of polearm vs great sword, take GWM and then wait to see.

It really depends on your spell usage. And who else in the party? And to understand party tactics change with level ups.

A cleric from 1st to 4th level may spam bless, and you are able to use shield of faith.

But at 5th level, that cleric may now spam spirit guardians. Now what are you casting.

For GWM, I prefer devotion paladin as it is good for 1 minute versus everyone.

What spells will you use? If you use hunters mark, then do not select GWM. Grab sentinel and PAM. Hence LudicSavant's recommendation

Hi,

I have Druid, Rogue and Celestial Warlock. I will be solo melee fighter in front (unless Druid joins in his animal form?).

Because of that I don't think I want to waste time on Bless, because it's important for me to do dmg and get that priority enemy down asap.

So maybe Hunter's Mark or Divine Favor in first turn and then go and hit them or VoE in first turn and go to hit them.

Later I will probably use Haste with VoE on biggest enemy.


Who else is in the party?

Are you maxing out stats? Or just want feats?

Will you multiclass?

Hi,

I am pretty sure we will have access to items like Ogre Gloves ot Giant Belts so I am not that concerned about maxing STR fast.

Druid, Celestial Warlock and Rogue.

I don't want to multiclass much. I was thinking about maybe 3 levels of Champion Fighter (but LudicSavant said it's bad idea) for crits and Action Surge.

Or maybe 1 level of Hexblade to get Shield spell, short rest slot for Hunter's Mark/Divine Favour and Curse. But Curse + VoE is two bonus actions so two turns of not using PAM extra attack, so I could as well use Greatsword for that.

I was also thinking about 3 levels of Bear Totem Barbarian for resistances but then I can't Concentrate on Hunter's Mark or Haste.

I am still new to 5e.

[PeteNutButter]

I am pretty sure we will have access to items like Ogre Gloves ot Giant Belts so I am not that concerned about maxing STR fast.

Druid, Celestial Warlock and Rogue.

I don't want to multiclass much. I was thinking about maybe 3 levels of Champion Fighter (but LudicSavant said it's bad idea) for crits and Action Surge.

Or maybe 1 level of Hexblade to get Shield spell, short rest slot for Hunter's Mark/Divine Favour and Curse. But Curse + VoE is two bonus actions so two turns of not using PAM extra attack, so I could as well use Greatsword for that.

I was also thinking about 3 levels of Bear Totem Barbarian for resistances but then I can't Concentrate on Hunter's Mark or Haste.

I am still new to 5e.

If you want to multiclass you are probably better off waiting until after level 11. You can’t rage in heavy armor, so Barbarian wouldn’t be worth it. The fighter dip wouldn’t be so bad, but is terribly weak in comparison to getting improved divine smite at level 11. The caster dips (hexblade/sorcerer) have more value and people usually take them after paladin 6. If you are new to the game, I’d stay clear of those for simplicity’s sake.

Normally I say start with PAM as it’s a huge power boost in tier one having another attack, but sounds like you have some serious bonus action competition. Are you married to vengeance?

GWM is much stronger than sentinel IMO, but the -5/+10 is often not worth it at the low levels. It works much better as a tier 2+ option. Sentinel is great for keeping your allies away from harm, but you should be doing plenty of damage for the enemy to focus you anyways.

[Ganymede]

All three options are great.

If you're worried that one of the three is a trap option, set your mind at ease; they're all basically copy-paste builds from every single optimization thread out there.

[Mitsu]

If you want to multiclass you are probably better off waiting until after level 11. You can’t rage in heavy armor, so Barbarian wouldn’t be worth it. The fighter dip wouldn’t be so bad, but is terribly weak in comparison to getting improved divine smite at level 11. The caster dips (hexblade/sorcerer) have more value and people usually take them after paladin 6. If you are new to the game, I’d stay clear of those for simplicity’s sake.

Normally I say start with PAM as it’s a huge power boost in tier one having another attack, but sounds like you have some serious bonus action competition. Are you married to vengeance?

GWM is much stronger than sentinel IMO, but the -5/+10 is often not worth it at the low levels. It works much better as a tier 2+ option. Sentinel is great for keeping your allies away from harm, but you should be doing plenty of damage for the enemy to focus you anyways.

Yes, I am set for Vengeance because it has good flavour and best damage and I like damage.

My concern is Hunter's Mark. Its a very good spell but recasting it on another enemy takes bonus action- again that is PAM attack lost. However Divine Favour, while only 1k4, not 1k6 at least lasts for 10 turns so it seems like better idea for PAM build.

[LudicSavant]

GWM is much stronger than sentinel IMO

In defense of Sentinel:

If you're the sole person on the front lines, Sentinel + PAM + Relentless Avenger can be a fun combo.

Basically, an enemy enters within 10 feet of you, you opportunity attack them, reduce their speed to zero, and then get to move half your speed away from them (likely putting yourself amongst your party, so that they can benefit from your amazing aura. AND taking advantage of cover to improve your defenses against ranged attacks). Enemy is now stuck about 25 feet away from you and has to rely on ranged attacks (and if they are the kind that allow saving throws, your aura has that covered for everyone).

Certain enemies have a ton of trouble even getting an opportunity to take a swing. Against these enemies, you can just sort of lie back and whittle them down while saving your resources for novaing enemies that can actually get in and do something.

Let's look at the CR7 foes in the Monster Manual to get a rough idea of about how often this'll be useful.
Young Dragons? They've only got melee attacks on most rounds, since their breath weapon has to recharge. And of course the breath weapon is a save attack.
Stone Giant? 15 foot reach means you're out of luck unless you get Enlarged or something.
Drow Mage? It's a mage. It doesn't try to enter your range.
Grick Alpha? Melee only.
Mind Flayers? Dangerous at any range, but preventing them from approaching is still useful to avoid their coup de grace.
Oni? It's a gish with limited ranged options. Mostly Cone of Cold, which has a save.
Shield Guardian? Almost entirely melee only.
Blue Slaad? Another melee brute.
Yuan-Ti Abomination? Stuck using its weak bow or Fear (which you're immune to).
Giant Ape? Stuck throwing rocks for reduced damage.
Mook swarms? You only have one reaction.

___

Again though, rest assured that GWM is a viable option too. Like I said above, it depends on party and encounter composition, etc. Last VP build I played used GWM. One before that used Sentinel. Both did their jobs well, IMO.


All three options are great.

If you're worried that one of the three is a trap option, set your mind at ease

Agreed, none of these are bad options.

[Pex]

For what it's worth, I'm playing a Devotion Paladin with a greatsword and can reroll 1s and 2s on smites. I have neither Great Weapon Master nor Pole Arm Master. I have never lacked for damage dealing. Therefore, my advice in deciding what to do is not to concern yourself about eking out as much damage as possible. Even if the math suggests your average damage is 1 or 2 higher with the feat than without, that factor doesn't matter. Choose your feat, or not, based on what is fun for you to do as well as opportunity cost of what you're not getting when you choose the feat or what you could get instead if you do not choose that feat.

[Mitsu]

My full plan (at least at this moment) is:

PAM, Sentinel or GWM, RES (CON), Mounted Combatant, +2 CHA, +2 CHA.

However I wonder if Sentinel is better than GWM because I am the only source of high DPR in my party. I am only the only one full-tank. Moon Druid can tank from party, however he will probalby also want to play as caster.

So what I think: wouldn't more reliably hits (sentinel) + option to keep boss/big guy at me (sentinel speed 0 reduction) be better than killing everything faster?

[CTurbo]

Paladins really love ASI bumps so I personally wouldn't take so many feats. PAM is good, but I don't like GWM for Paladins. I would only take Sentinel IF there was another front line character allowing you to pull off the reaction attack reliably. Other than that I would bump Str at least once of not twice.


Note about Sentinel - a lot of people consider it a control feat, but to me, it's a pure DPR feat.

[Corran]

Mitsu, I read that you want to go for a high dpr build, but consider this. If your character gets dropped, the dpr also gets dropped to 0. I am not saying that building a dpr vengeance paly in this party automatically means that your character will get dropped unconscious a lot, but depending on how hard the DM goes on your party as far as encounters are concerned, it is a possibility. Personally, in this party, I would very seriously consider an oath of the crown S&B paladin (due to how useful their channel divinity can be in this setup). You will still get to do good damage against the big threats thanks to smiting (and later on against hordes thanks to spirit guardians; resilient con recommended by level 8 if singleclass, earlier even if you want to make good use of spells like shield of faith and protection from evil). Multiclassing to caster (mainly for defensive spells like shield and blur; having divine soul sorcerer in mind, so that you wont delay spells like spirit guardians or revivify that much, eventually probably getting them from paladin levels and retraining the sorcerer spell picks) can help here a lot, but as others said it would be best to stay singleclass since you are new to the edition; IME multiclassing is very tricky and can lure one easily into making suboptimal choices).

[Mitsu]

Paladins really love ASI bumps so I personally wouldn't take so many feats. PAM is good, but I don't like GWM for Paladins. I would only take Sentinel IF there was another front line character allowing you to pull off the reaction attack reliably. Other than that I would bump Str at least once of not twice.


Note about Sentinel - a lot of people consider it a control feat, but to me, it's a pure DPR feat.

I like it because of Relentless Avenger. Enemy approach- OA -> Speed 0 -> move back 5-15 feet. Rise and repeat.

But why do you think Sentinel is DPR?

[Aussiehams]

Am I the only S&B Vengeance Pally in all the Realms?

[djreynolds]

Here's the reality

If you use GWM... bless is more beneficial

If you use PAM... hunter's mark is more beneficial

But realize there a lot of great paladin spells, compelled duel, searing smite, hold person (not for you, but the rogue), shield of faith

All of these are concentration, my advice is look at the spells and you will see hunter's mark may stop getting prepared after a few levels

Also you charisma is tied to your spell D/C, so max it

[LudicSavant]

Am I the only S&B Vengeance Pally in all the Realms?

No, but that wasn't one of the three choices the OP offered.

[Mitsu]

Personally, in this party, I would very seriously consider an oath of the crown S&B paladin (due to how useful their channel divinity can be in this setup).

Hi,

I appreciate suggestion but I am not support/tank type of player. I like to murder things, fast and effectively. I am set on Vengeance Pally. Devotion would be my other option but I really like that I can play in 5e "evil" paladin and Devotion is calssic pally from previous editions. And I had enough of those.

So what would in your opinion be better option from options that I have mentioned in OP?

I was also thinking of getting not 1, but maybe 2 levels of Hexblade to grab Devil Sight + Agonizing Blast

I could do that after level 6. I lose one ASI though.


Here's the reality

If you use GWM... bless is more beneficial

If you use PAM... hunter's mark is more beneficial

But realize there a lot of great paladin spells, compelled duel, searing smite, hold person (not for you, but the rogue), shield of faith

All of these are concentration, my advice is look at the spells and you will see hunter's mark may stop getting prepared after a few levels

Also you charisma is tied to your spell D/C, so max it

Bless is sadly 1 action so unless pre-cast I don't see myself using it much in combat. Shield of Faith is great.

Did anyone played with GWM as Vengeance Paladin? Did it make huge difference in real-gameplay scenario?

[CTurbo]

If you want to be an evil Paladin and murder things effectively, check out Oathbreaker. Take PAM and max Str and Cha and you'll hit really hard.

[PeteNutButter]

In defense of Sentinel:
Snip


I like it because of Relentless Avenger. Enemy approach- OA -> Speed 0 -> move back 5-15 feet. Rise and repeat.


This is a neat feature, no doubt. I think it is very strong.

There are a few reasons I don't value Sentinel as high (on this build).
1) It's situational. In my experience, most solo monster fights aren't the hard ones. As you pointed out, LudicSavant, you only get one reaction, and the other enemies will still get there. Granted, shutting down a single enemy, or forcing them to do ranged can certainly be powerful.

2) It can actually make it harder for you to maintain the front line. As combat plays out, every round you are backing away from the enemy, giving them a choice to engage different party members. If the party stays in perfect tight formation (good luck), than you can always land (or at least attempt) the OA if they approach, but even so they can often reach another PC as long as they approach from the right direction. Basically any foe with brains should start slapping your team instead once they see this trick done once. This is much easier to maintain to the party's advantage in a tight space. In the open field, expect your party to start taking the brunt of the attacks, especially against mobile foes.

3) In this case the primary benefit of the feat (the reaction attack) is basically wasted. Between the high damage and movement impediment, foes will focus you. With only 7 hp per level and an AC stuck in the high teens your biggest issue is probably going to be staying alive past the first two rounds.

With that third point in mind, maybe don't plan so far ahead. I suspect by level 4, you'll have spent enough time at zero hp that you will be looking to grab that resilient con or something else to boost your survivability. I for one, have never planned a build that didn't get altered over the course of leveling.

[Mitsu]

If you want to be an evil Paladin and murder things effectively, check out Oathbreaker. Take PAM and max Str and Cha and you'll hit really hard.

I didn't mean full evil. I meant not good. My Vengeance Pally is more of a mercenery type. He hunts down evil to get rid off it, but he does that for price because his Oath is actually his punishment, not a devotion. He is Neutral Evil.

But that is roleplay part. Rest of my party is Neutral so Oathbreaker which just just Blackguard would not fit at all.

[Mitsu]

snip

Thanks for valid points. I think GWM may actually be less situational than Sentinel.

[LudicSavant]

Did anyone played with GWM as Vengeance Paladin? Did it make huge difference in real-gameplay scenario?

I've played both a PAM / Sentinel VP and a PAM / GWM VP.

The way the math works out is that it mostly makes a bigger difference to your low-resource DPR than your nova /smiting DPR.

If you fight 6-8 encounter adventuring days you will find it useful for keeping your numbers high while saving your big guns for the big bads.

Given your description of your playstyle thus far it sounds like it might be the right choice for you, so long as you have multiple encounters a day and are cognizant of when it's mathematically better not to take a -5.

[Mitsu]

I've played both a PAM / Sentinel VP and a PAM / GWM VP.

The way the math works out is that it mostly makes a bigger difference to your low-resource DPR than your nova /smiting DPR.

If you fight 6-8 encounter adventuring days you will find it useful for keeping your numbers high while saving your big guns for the big bads.

Given your description of your playstyle thus far it sounds like it might be the right choice for you, so long as you have multiple encounters a day and are cognizant of when it's mathematically better not to take a -5.

Hi,

Why +10 dmg won't make much difference in my Nova/Smitting DPR?

As for encounters per day. Judging from my DM playstyle I think mostly we won't see that many encounters per day. My DM prefer to focus more on story and fights are sort of ice on cake in them.

In some intense battle session like siege, raid on underground enemy base etc. we will probably see multiple encounters but during standard session I don't think we will see that many that often. He seems to prefer to keep it to 3 maybe 4 at max because otherwise story suffers fro the sake of combat.

That is why I can say from other RPGs.

[LudicSavant]

Hi,

Why +10 dmg won't make much difference in my Nova/Smitting DPR?

Because the more damage you're doing with any given hit, the more damage is lost to any given miss chance. Mathematically, there comes a point where the -5 to hit is losing you more damage than the +10 is gaining. Paladins can reach this breakpoint more easily than some other classes.

[Mitsu]

Because the more damage you're doing with any given hit, the more damage is lost to any given miss chance. Mathematically, there comes a point where the -5 to hit is losing you more damage than the +10 is gaining.Paladins can reach this breakpoint more easily than some other classes.

Thanks, could you elaborate on this? Should I not use GWM on bosses when I want to go "full smite" mode then?

So if Paladins can reach that point more easly- won't GWM become irrelevant on higher levels?

But then again- the higher level the more proficiency bonus + getting +1/2/3 weapons. Won't that make GWM more consitent later on?

Or should I use it only when AC thershold is on my favour like shown here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472938-Great-Weapon-Mastery-How-to-5-10-Like-a-Pro

[LudicSavant]

Thanks, could you elaborate on this? Should I not use GWM on bosses when I want to go "full smite" mode then?

So if Paladins can reach that point more easly- won't GWM become irrelevant on higher levels?

But then again- the higher level the more proficiency bonus + getting +1/2/3 weapons. Won't that make GWM more consitent later on?

You just have to do the math. You calculate your DPR if you don't -5/+10 against a given target, and your DPR if you do -5/+10 against the target, and see which one is higher.

GWM doesn't become irrelevant at higher levels, but neither does it ever become an "always use" case for Paladins. This is because even as your accuracy increases, so is the amount of damage you can pack into a single hit (and therefore risk more on a miss).

[CTurbo]

I don't like GWM on Paladins. The only time I would even consider using the -5/+10 is during Sacred Weapon or Vow of Enmity. I think PAM is superior because it's useful all the time.

I don't think Paladin's have the feat space to take both with hurting elsewhere.

[Mitsu]

I don't like GWM on Paladins. The only time I would even consider using the -5/+10 is during Sacred Weapon or Vow of Enmity. I think PAM is superior because it's useful all the time.

I don't think Paladin's have the feat space to take both with hurting elsewhere.

That is why I took Variant human, to have possible both without hurting ASI much. Level 1- PAM, then Level 4- GWM or Sentinel.

[djreynolds]

Bless is 1 action, cast it 1d4 to all attacks and saving throws for 3 PCs

Combat does always start face to face... you may have to use a short bow or javelin or spear or you may have to move 30 and either dash another 30ft or take the dodge action or cast bless.

Bless is awesome. Shield of Faith is very good

What you will find in 5E, is that the dice are very swingy. Having the bless spell up and running is huge

If I was to dip fighter, it would be for battlemaster and the precision maneuver, trip, and menacing

[Benny89]

Hi Mitsu,

You got a lot of good infor here but let me break it down for you really quick.

Let's consider your party members:

1. Celestial Warlock- Ask him if maybe he could take 1 level into Life Cleric. Since he is Warlock he regains that Bless on short rest. It's absolutely excellent synergy and Bless remains a top notch spell all the way to level 20. If he will spam Bless in combat - GWM is no brainer. -5 Penalty can easy be cancelled by a lot with 1k4 to attack which is on average +2.5 to attack.

2. Moon Druid (I assume it was Moon druid) - Fearie Fire. Ask your Druid player if he could use Fearie Fire on groups of enemies. This will give you advantage (and rest of the team!). This combined with Bless is again- no brainer for GWM. It's GWM fest. Also druid have a lot of AOE CC spells, which again will play well with your 10 feet reach and GWM.

3. Rogue - well nothing here I guess for you, but he benefit from same two things above greatly.

So- if your party members will use their resources to buff you and debuff enemies (especially Bless spam) - GWM is a must in my opinion. If they however (their choice, their style) prefer to focus on other spells or Conc effects during fights - I would reconsider taking GWM that early. From your plan it seems that you want to take it at level 4. Unless you get +1 polearm early a -5 penalty will be huge for you.

On level 4 you will have +2 proficiency and +3 STR. That is +5 to hit. Let's assume you get +1 weapon early. That is +6. That will be still +1 in most scenarios. Imo not usable unless you use VoE or Druid regularly use Fearie Fire. With Bless on- it's different story.

So what I recommend is:

1. If you are unsure how your team and you will be playing in combat- I would take for now on level 4 Resilence (CON). You have to take it anyway as Vuman V-Pally and there is no bad level to take it.
2. Play with PAM and RES (CON) till level 8 and then decide based on your experience with party if you would like to have in most scenarios a GWM feat or Sentinel.
3. If you however will see that damage was not an issue for you and that you really don't need more CC options (Sentinel) you may consider different feat than those two. Heavy Armor Master is a very good feat for front line melee character. Lucky is very good feat for Vengeance Paladin - 3 extra d20 rolls during boss combat is like almost having an weaker Elven Accuracy on demand. Mage Slayer is nice feat if you are solo front liner because getting to enemy caster and shut him is very important. With tools like Haste, Misty Step, Dimensional Door or Pegasus you can easy get to backline and attack enemy caster. Or you can just take earlier than you planned Mounted Combatant and ride on your Warhorse to battle.

What I am trying to say is that level 4 might be too early for you to decide whenever you really need more offense or defense. Maybe it's worth to delay that a little and see what kind of style is better for your party composition.

[Mitsu]

Thanks for all the info.

I think maybe I will just take RES (CON) at 4th level and see after that what I want. Maybe 4th level is too early to decide the total shape of my PAM build.

Also I have a question vs PAM. Seems like PAM is very good option but it restricts your bonus actions during combat to using it or wasting that feat.

So in typical VoE "full smite mode" I will cast VOE and then in all next turns I will go for PAM + multiattack for max d20 rolls and smites.

But on the other hand if I was using greatsword I could:

Cast VoE in first turn, Cast Curse in Second Turn (if I took dip in Hexblade), Cast Shield of Faith in Third turn (or Hunter's Mark) or something else (Misty Step etc.)

So I would deal less Smites and DPR but I would have more options for Bonus action usage.

But PAM seems just too good on Vengeance Paladin just from pure "full smite mode" perspective.

[djreynolds]

You may not always use the BA on PAM, okay.... its nice to have options and choices

The reaction attack at 10ft is an easy opportunity to smite and ruin the enemy charge or game plan

The BA is just gravy, once 11th level comes around... all three attacks get 1d8 additional damage

My advice is to enjoy the game, any doubt plus up charisma

You know... the leadership feat is quite nice

[Mitsu]

After reading other topics here and on different forums I decided that it might be better to just go 1h + Shield with PAM instead. As was mentioned here few times with GWM and Vengeance- the higher potential dmg per hit, the higher is damage loss on miss, which hurts

So this is how I see it now:

Variant Human: STR: 16, DEX: 8, CON: 14, INT:8, WIS: 10, CHA: 16.

Vengeance Paladin with 1 level dip Hexblade.

Weapon: Spear or Staff + Shield.
Style: Duelist

Level 1- PAM.
Level 4- +2 CHA (Will offset faster -1 DEX and we take Hexblade soon).
Level 5 and 6- Paladin (Aura nad +2 CHA offsets -1 DEX here).
Level 7- 1 hexblade dip for CHA attacks.
Level 9- Warcaster (advantage on CONC saves, this will synergize well with Booming Blade + Relentless Avenger making super strong OAs).
Level 13: +2 CHA (20 CHA).
Level 17 and 20 ASI: what seems most useful, maybe Sentinel or Mounted Combatnat or Inspiring Leader.

This way at lvl 13 I will have: SAD 20 CHA, Warcaster (+7 to CON saves + advantage on CONC + Booming Blade reaction attacks), PAM and +5 Saves (+4 DEX). And option to use magic staffs, shields and spears and if finding some good 1h magic swords, it won't hurt me that much (duelist style).

So strong offense (level 11: 2-3x 1k6 + 2 + 5 + 1k8 + Smites + 1k4 + 2 +5 + 1k8 + Smite and Booming Blade reaction attacks) + strong defense (+2 AC shield, plate armor access, Haste +2 AC = total min. 22 AC + Shield = 27 AC, +5 saves, 20 CHA DC on spells). Every magic item +1 (shield, plate armor, weapon) will greatly benefit this build.

[CTurbo]

After reading other topics here and on different forums I decided that it might be better to just go 1h + Shield with PAM instead. As was mentioned here few times with GWM and Vengeance- the higher potential dmg per hit, the higher is damage loss on miss, which hurts

So this is how I see it now:

Variant Human: STR: 16, DEX: 8, CON: 14, INT:8, WIS: 10, CHA: 16.

Vengeance Paladin with 1 level dip Hexblade.

Weapon: Spear or Staff + Shield.
Style: Duelist

Level 1- PAM.
Level 4- +2 CHA (advantage on CON and Booming Blade reaction).
Level 5 and 6- Paladin (Aura nad +2 CHA offsets -1 DEX here).
Level 7- 1 hexblade dip for CHA attacks.
Level 9- Warcaster (this will synergize well with Booming Blade + Relentless Avenger making super strong OAs).
Level 13: +2 CHA (20 CHA).
Level 17 and 20 ASI: what seems most useful, maybe Sentinel or Mounted Combatnat or Inspiring Leader.

This way at lvl 13 I will have: SAD 20 CHA, Warcaster + Booming Blade, PAM and +5 Saves (+4 DEX). And option to use magic staffs and spears and if finding some good 1h magic swords, it won't hurt me that much (duelist).

So strong offense (level 11: 2-3x 1k6 + 2 + 5 + 1k8 + Smites + 1k4 + 2 +5 + 1k8 + Smite and Booming Blade reaction attacks) + strong defense (+2 AC shield, plate armor access, Haste +2 AC = total min. 24 AC + Shield = 29 AC, +5 saves, 20 CHA DC on spells).


Mechanically, this is very strong, and would be a great build.
Thematically, I think one handed PAM and shield is one of the cheesiest things you could possible do by RAW in D&D lol. That's just my 2 cents.

[Mitsu]

Mechanically, this is very strong, and would be a great build.
Thematically, I think one handed PAM and shield is one of the cheesiest things you could possible do by RAW in D&D lol. That's just my 2 cents.

Agree, but I am immune to cheese :).

Even better with party Druid if I find magic Staff I can ask him to cast Shillelagh on my staff, making it K8 instead of k6.

Ow, and since we don't really need Bless that much, we can easly spam Divine Favor on low levels or Shield of Faith when we combat multiple enemies. Hunter's Mark is not good on PAM as it takes away bonus attack. Divine Favor is better here.

And if I find STR item like Giant Belt- I always have option to use 2h polearms when needed anyway.


BTW. PAM bonus attack can with 1h and shield be treated by "roleplay" as shield bash. It makes sense and from roleplay perspective it makes that bonus attack less "ugh". No mechanical difference, but at least in roleplay it looks better.

[CTurbo]

BTW. PAM bonus attack can with 1h and shield be treated by "roleplay" as shield bash. It makes sense and from roleplay perspective it makes that bonus attack less "ugh". No mechanical difference, but at least in roleplay it looks better.


I like that, if your DM allows it. The only problem is is that REALLY "dueling style" anymore if you're doing that?

[Mitsu]

I like that, if your DM allows it. The only problem is is that REALLY "dueling style" anymore if you're doing that?

It's just roleplay. Mechanically it doesn't matter if you say "I shield bash him in face for 1k4 + 2 +5 + 1k8" or "I hit him with back of spear for 1k4 +2 +5 + 1k8". It only gives player that different image in head.

It's like saying "I pierced through his heart with my glaive" while Glaive is slashing weapon. But mechanically you dealt slash damage.

It's just flavour change for narration, nothing changes on mechanical level. Even damage is still blunt by all logic.

[CTurbo]

It's just roleplay. Mechanically it doesn't matter if you say "I shield bash him in face for 1k4 + 2 +5 + 1k8" or "I hit him with back of spear for 1k4 +2 +5 + 1k8". It only gives player that different image in head.

It's like saying "I pierced through his heart with my glaive" while Glaive is slashing weapon. But mechanically you dealt slash damage.

It's just flavour change for narration, nothing changes on mechanical level. Even damage is still blunt by all logic.

Fair enough

[OverLordOcelot]

Agree, but I am immune to cheese :).

Even better with party Druid if I find magic Staff I can ask him to cast Shillelagh on my staff, making it K8 instead of k6.

Doesn't work - Shillelagh specifically ends if the druid lets go of the weapon. Unless the druid is going to follow you around and keep a hand on the staff...

[Mitsu]

Doesn't work - Shillelagh specifically ends if the druid lets go of the weapon. Unless the druid is going to follow you around and keep a hand on the staff...

Correct! You are right, I missed that "let go of" part of this cantrip. Maybe Magic Innate: Druid on level 17 for this would be nice if you got some crazy staff, like Staff of Magi or something. But not worth if you don't have some crazy magic staff.

[OverLordOcelot]

Correct! You are right, I missed that "let go of" part of this cantrip. Maybe Magic Innate: Druid on level 17 for this would be nice if you got some crazy staff, like Staff of Magi or something. But not worth if you don't have some crazy magic staff.

I can think of a lot better uses for a feat than getting an average of one more point of damage on your regular two attacks per round. Two points of damage per round (going from D6 to D8 on two attacks) is pretty paltry.

[Mitsu]

I can think of a lot better uses for a feat than getting an average of one more point of damage on your regular two attacks per round. Two points of damage per round (going from D6 to D8 on two attacks) is pretty paltry.

It was just an idea. I agree it's not optimized. With this build I will probably grab Lucky, Inspiring Leader or Mounted Combatant at 17.

[Mitsu]

Btw. would it be worth to that build I posted above to dip 1 more level of Hexblade? With 2 levels of Hexblade I can also get: Agonizing Blast and Devil Sight (or Lance of Lethargy/Improved Pact Weapon/Eldritch Spear or Grasp of Hadar to pull running enemies toward you, potentially for Booming Blade reaction attack).

Now Agonizing Blast with 20 CHA and being able to cast it on reaction using War Caster sounds fun (that is 3d10 + 15 dmg on level 13, average 31,5 dmg) and give strong range option. But at the same time Booming Blade on reaction on 13 level would be 1d6 + 2 + 5 + 1k8 + 2d8 + 3d8 if target moves = average 3,5 + 2 + 5 + 4,5 + 9 + 13,5= 37,5 dmg average. Less if target won't move but then it loses its round (as we moved away with Relentless Avenger after reaction attack).

And I lose 1 5th level slot on Paladin (which is 5k8 Smite) + I lose one final ASI on 20 level. I don't know if trading 5k8 Smite for better long range attack option is a good trade off.

Do you think it's worth it?

[samcifer]

Yes, PAM might be a better choice.

It also is all dependent on what spells you'll concentrate on.

Bless + vow of enmity = easier time using GWM. But this works with any heavy weapon. And you can do this at 3rd level.

If you are unsure of polearm vs great sword, take GWM and then wait to see.

It really depends on your spell usage. And who else in the party? And to understand party tactics change with level ups.

A cleric from 1st to 4th level may spam bless, and you are able to use shield of faith.

But at 5th level, that cleric may now spam spirit guardians. Now what are you casting.

For GWM, I prefer devotion paladin as it is good for 1 minute versus everyone.

What spells will you use? If you use hunters mark, then do not select GWM. Grab sentinel and PAM. Hence LudicSavant's recommendation

I use PM + GWM with Oath of Devotion. I have max xharisma, so the Devotion's Sacred Weapon feature basically acts as a perfect counter to the -5 to hit and with PM and a Glaive, I get to hit up to 3 times each turn for up to 71 damage per round Assuming I rolled a 10 on the weapon die each time, so more an average of 57 damage total if all 3 attacks hit) and that's before adding in smite damage.

[Mitsu]

I use PM + GWM with Oath of Devotion. I have max xharisma, so the Devotion's Sacred Weapon feature basically acts as a perfect counter to the -5 to hit and with PM and a Glaive, I get to hit up to 3 times each turn for up to 71 damage per round Assuming I rolled a 10 on the weapon die each time, so more an average of 57 damage total if all 3 attacks hit) and that's before adding in smite damage.

Yes, GWM is great on Devotion, but I am set on Vengeance Paladin.

[samcifer]

Yes, GWM is great on Devotion, but I am set on Vengeance Paladin.

Well, imo, you should only take GWM if you have some way to compensate for the -5 to hit, such as a weapon with preferably a +3 to hit or perhaps 3 levels of Battle Master Fighter to help you via the Precision Martial Maneauver. That being said, being able to re-roll smite dice is pretty good, so as long as you don't miss too often, I'd say go for it.

Sentinel is good to have if foes tend to be mobile or tend to cluster together (which would need pcs to cluster together to help trigger this).

Overall I tend to like having a third attack first, so I'd recommend going PM first with GWM, then take Sentinel later, but that's just me.

[fenriswolf]

Am I the only S&B Vengeance Pally in all the Realms?

I am playing one too. No regrets.

[Benny89]

After reading other topics here and on different forums I decided that it might be better to just go 1h + Shield with PAM instead. As was mentioned here few times with GWM and Vengeance- the higher potential dmg per hit, the higher is damage loss on miss, which hurts

So this is how I see it now:

Variant Human: STR: 16, DEX: 8, CON: 14, INT:8, WIS: 10, CHA: 16.

Vengeance Paladin with 1 level dip Hexblade.

Weapon: Spear or Staff + Shield.
Style: Duelist

Level 1- PAM.
Level 4- +2 CHA (Will offset faster -1 DEX and we take Hexblade soon).
Level 5 and 6- Paladin (Aura nad +2 CHA offsets -1 DEX here).
Level 7- 1 hexblade dip for CHA attacks.
Level 9- Warcaster (advantage on CONC saves, this will synergize well with Booming Blade + Relentless Avenger making super strong OAs).
Level 13: +2 CHA (20 CHA).
Level 17 and 20 ASI: what seems most useful, maybe Sentinel or Mounted Combatnat or Inspiring Leader.

This way at lvl 13 I will have: SAD 20 CHA, Warcaster (+7 to CON saves + advantage on CONC + Booming Blade reaction attacks), PAM and +5 Saves (+4 DEX). And option to use magic staffs, shields and spears and if finding some good 1h magic swords, it won't hurt me that much (duelist style).

So strong offense (level 11: 2-3x 1k6 + 2 + 5 + 1k8 + Smites + 1k4 + 2 +5 + 1k8 + Smite and Booming Blade reaction attacks) + strong defense (+2 AC shield, plate armor access, Haste +2 AC = total min. 22 AC + Shield = 27 AC, +5 saves, 20 CHA DC on spells). Every magic item +1 (shield, plate armor, weapon) will greatly benefit this build.

I think this is better build that PAM+GWM build. It will lose some Nova damage (but the higher enemy AC the smaller gap) but you get: 20 in stat on level 13 for: attacks, Auras, spells DC and face skills (Intimidation, Persuasion, Deception). You also get +2 AC and Booming Blade combo and other spells on reaction. Overall I think you gain much more here and not only for you, but also for team (+5 to save throws) and you get best balance between offense and defense possible.

You are worry about damage, don't be. Vengeance Paladins always have great damage, no matter if 1h or 2h. Duelist +2 is of course 8 dmg lost to GWM, but remember that you will also miss more often with it and in fight vs some high AC bosses you will probably even want to not activate GWM just to be sure you won't miss your Nova.

As for your question regarding 1 lvl dip in Hexblade vs 2. I think personally that it depends on party. Will you see that they lack some great range dmg many times when needed? Take 2nd level in Warlock and Agonizing Blast + Eldricht Spear and rock that range 4d10 + 20 + Hex/Hunter's Mark when needed. No problem with range damage in party- stick to Paladin for that one more 5k8 Smite.