Feasible Duels

[understatement]

(my 3rd thread, and even dumber than the previous two -- so bear with me)

I will like to throw in that I know nothing of DnD, but narratively/hypothetically, are these duels balanced?

(I'd like to think it'll take place in one of Kraagor's tunnel-dungeons [so, close-quarters] and both sides stumble upon each other in surprise like in Girard's illusion)

1) whole Order + our two paladins vs Xykon, RC, Oona + Greyview? (MitD is discounted)

Possibly more likely scenarios:

2) Roy + Elan vs RC (since Roy was holding pretty well against Durkula, especially with his sword lighting up. I guess Elan helps boost his damage and throws?)

3) Durkon + Haley vs RC (sneak attack seems to be pretty turn-the-tide-of-battle thing, to compensate Durkon's lower levels)

4) V + Durkon + Roy + O-chul vs Xykon (spitballing)

I don't think Belkar will fare too well here -- maybe he + Elan/Haley can help dispose of some basic summoned monsters or something.

Are these duels relatively balanced by Dnd stats? Judging purely from the plot, it looks like MiTD/Xykon>V/RC>Durkon>=Roy/O-chul>Lien/Haley/Belkar/Oona>Elan.

Also, watching Team Evil do a dungeon crawl would be amazing

I know a lot of threads already have these hypothetical combat scenarios, but some of the characters acquired new items and abilities

[Caerulea]

Balanced at what level of optimisation? I'm barely an amateur, but from what I know Xykon, Redcloak, Durkon, or Vaarsuvius, well optimised, would solo the rest of the characters combined.

Off the top of my head:

1. Toss-up, in favour of Team Evil, because Xykon is stupidly powerful and Redcloak could handle a lot himself.

2. Redcloak wins, hands down. He is a better fighter than Durkula, because he doesn't take dumb risks, is more powerful, and overall plays better. Maybe Roy if he caught him very off guard.

3. Toss-up, in favour of the Order.

—Caerulea

[understatement]

Wait, V's that powerful? Couldn't Durkon just Greater Dispel magic then let Roy run up and disrupt his casting? Zhe barely survived a Sneak Attack from Haley.

[Caerulea]

Wait, V's that powerful? Couldn't Durkon just Greater Dispel magic then let Roy run up and disrupt his casting? Zhe barely survived a Sneak Attack from Haley.
I meant that the high level casters could solo those who are not casters. Vaarsuvius vs Durkon + Redcloak + Xykon + Roy + others would obviously fail. Were it just Roy, Haley, Belkar, and Elan, well, Flight + Protection from Arrows puts them out of reach of nearly all attacks, and then it is just a matter of casting disintegrate until they die.

—Caerulea

[RatElemental]

If Xykon is optimized at all, he can probably solo the order, even with both casters. That's just how ludicrous being epic level makes you.

Xykon probably has 10th or 11th level spell slots. There aren't even 10th or 11th level spells, that's just to let him use metamagic to go beyond the limit, and of course there's the matter of epic spells to consider.

I'm honestly not sure why Xykon hasn't researched an offensive epic spell or two, he could easily manage something that would put meteor swarm to shame. A personal favorite is the example spell that sends the target into orbit.

There's also epic level metamagic that maximizes a spell's effects and then doubles them. How does 120 typeless damage that grants you 120 temporary hitpoints sound? Sounds to me like TPK. The thing leveling the playing field most of all here is the spellsplinter maneuver, but say Xykon turns ethereal and flies into the floor and pops up next to anyone not next to Roy just long enough to instantly murder them. He could pick them off one by one before just hitting Roy with a dex-based save or lose.

[Fyraltari]

If Xykon is optimized at all, he can probably solo the order, even with both casters. That's just how ludicrous being epic level makes you.
Probably not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html).

[RatElemental]

Probably not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html).

Oh yeah I'm quite sure Xykon's build is nonoptimal, I was just pointing out that if he was the OotS would have next to no chance at all. Your example actually works in my favor though: Xykon held his own against the entire sapphire guard, twice, the only things in that room posing a legitimate threat to him being Soon (an epic or near epic character himself) and his own ignorance of how incorporeality works.

[zimmerwald1915]

OOTS v. TE is neither mechanically nor narratively balanced, and that is a good thing. It means OOTS has our sympathy as underdogs all the way to the end. It means they have to be clever and that their hard-won and by no means automatic strengths (primarily team cohesion and individual character growth) can act as foils to TE's character weaknesses.

As far as mechanical balance goes, 3.5 D&D doesn't balance individual encounters to be dangerous. It balances encounters to use up a certain portion of a party's daily resources - primarily spell slots and hit points (which depend upon spell slots). A "balanced" encounter uses up about a quarter of a party's daily resources, so that a party can have about four a day. A dangerous encounter is one that severely overmatches the party, as TE does to OOTS.

[Larre Gannd]

OOTS v. TE is neither mechanically nor narratively balanced, and that is a good thing. It means OOTS has our sympathy as underdogs all the way to the end. It means they have to be clever and that their hard-won and by no means automatic strengths (primarily team cohesion and individual character growth) can act as foils to TE's character weaknesses.

As far as mechanical balance goes, 3.5 D&D doesn't balance individual encounters to be dangerous. It balances encounters to use up a certain portion of a party's daily resources - primarily spell slots and hit points (which depend upon spell slots). A "balanced" encounter uses up about a quarter of a party's daily resources, so that a party can have about four a day. A dangerous encounter is one that severely overmatches the party, as TE does to OOTS.

Seeing as the MitD has ac too high for Belkar to hit, and enough DR to be completely unaffected by Miko, and also whose weakest attack sent her flying off into the air, and who can create an earthquake by tapping their foot. With a single spell, Redcloak created an elemental powerful enough to take on the entire order minus their spellcasters, and kill the elven team without any trouble at all. Xykon easily defeated Roy, with enough power to go on and kill the entire Saphire guard, and with still enough spells to hold his own a second time against epic leveled Soon, and probably would have won if he cared about rules. Not to mention that apparently he had been holding back, because of how easily he defeated Darth V, who was containing two of the most powerful magic users in history.

That is a super deadly encounter right there.

[understatement]

That is a super deadly encounter right there.

MiTD might not even lift a 'finger.'

And I'm thinking that Kraagor's dungeons are relatively narrow, cramped spaces, which means Xykon can't just Fly up and spam Meteor Swarms (he could still spam them, but maybe Roy disrupts it?) RC is pretty powerful, but seeing how him vs O-chul turned out in close-quarter range...I don't know. Maybe.

And Oots + Co. wins initiative? They know Team Evil's in the tomb, unlike vice versa.

Of course, this is a extremely contrived scenario, but is it possible for the Order to have any chance at victory?

[Synesthesy]

If we exclude the Monster in the Darkness


he is weak against mind control, so as Xykon did ordered him to devour Redcloak, he can also have ordered the monster to never attack him


I think that Team Evil can defeat the Order in a fair fight. Xykon can so much area damage to kill V very easily, Redcloak can summon some very dangerous elementals before even starting fighting, and now team evil has some first line fighter in Oona and her wolf.

Obviously, if we add the most likely guess from MitD's own thread to Team Evil, the fight seems to me unwinnable by the Order. Instead, if we add O-Chul and MitD to the Order, we could even get some fair fight.

[Larre Gannd]

If we exclude the Monster in the Darkness


he is weak against mind control, so as Xykon did ordered him to devour Redcloak, he can also have ordered the monster to never attack him


I think that Team Evil can defeat the Order in a fair fight. Xykon can so much area damage to kill V very easily, Redcloak can summon some very dangerous elementals before even starting fighting, and now team evil has some first line fighter in Oona and her wolf.

Obviously, if we add the most likely guess from MitD's own thread to Team Evil, the fight seems to me unwinnable by the Order. Instead, if we add O-Chul and MitD to the Order, we could even get some fair fight.

But the MitD (at this moment) probably just wouldn’t fight at all. If we add O-Chul and Lien and Hinjo, vs. Oona and Greyview and Xykon and Redcoak, then team evil would still win, and not in terms of it being close, either.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think that Team Evil can defeat the Order in a fair fight. Xykon can so much area damage to kill V very easily
You'd think so, but Vaarsuvius has survived two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) of Xykon's meteor swarms in succession before. None of the spheres struck her, so she got a save for half against each and did not take bludgeoning damage, but still, that's 48d6/2 points of fire damage she survived - at minimum 24.

[Fyraltari]

You'd think so, but Vaarsuvius has survived two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) of Xykon's meteor swarms in succession before. None of the spheres struck her, so she got a save for half against each and did not take bludgeoning damage, but still, that's 48d6/2 points of fire damage she survived - at minimum 24.

Could some of the buffs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) V cast on Vself during the Dragon fight explain that? At least for the first swarm?

[zimmerwald1915]

Could some of the buffs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) V cast on Vself during the Dragon fight explain that? At least for the first swarm?
The only relevant buff was bear's endurance, which gave her extra HP from boosting her Constitution. She lost this HP when Xykon dispelled her "defenses," so no, it doesn't matter.

[RatElemental]

Could some of the buffs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) V cast on Vself during the Dragon fight explain that? At least for the first swarm?

Protection from spells would help to make the reflex save, and bear's endurance would give bonus HP to help survive any damage they did take. V also probably used protection against fire damage version of fire shield to defend against their own fireball, which would mean if they made the saves they took no damage at all.

Those spells all have a pretty low duration though, one or more of them might have run out before even porting in.

[Kish]

None of the buffs matter even a little after the Splices are dispelled. "Second, any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

[zimmerwald1915]

Protection from spells would help to make the reflex save, and bear's endurance would give bonus HP to help survive any damage they did take. V also probably used protection against fire damage version of fire shield to defend against their own fireball, which would mean if they made the saves they took no damage at all.

Those spells all have a pretty low duration though, one or more of them might have run out before even porting in.
Fire shield has an obvious visual tell of the caster being on fire, which Vaarsuvius was while fighting the Ancient Black Dragon and wasn't by the time she entered Xykon's tower. She is also shown taking damage from both of Xykon's meteor swarms.

Protection from spells is like bear's endurance in that it was dispelled between the first and second meteor swarms. It also only gives a bonus on the Reflex save for half damage.

[Fyraltari]

The only relevant buff was bear's endurance, which gave her extra HP from boosting her Constitution. She lost this HP when Xykon dispelled her "defenses," so no, it doesn't matter.


None of the buffs matter even a little after the Splices are dispelled. "Second, any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

So it did help for the first swarm? Unless you are saying that one attack should have been enough to take down V anyway?

[zimmerwald1915]

So it did help for the first swarm? Unless you are saying that one attack should have been enough to take down V anyway?

Hit points gained by a temporary increase in Constitution score are not temporary hit points. They go away when the subject’s Constitution drops back to normal. They are not lost first as temporary hit points are.
When Vaarsuvius lost the bear's endurance spell, she also lost the hit points it granted. Those hit points were not burned off by the first meteor swarm; that spell cost her her own, bona fide hit points.

So it doesn't matter. Vaarsuvius has survived two consecutive meteor swarms on nothing but her own hit points. She likely saved against both, and Xykon likely rolled low, but still.

[Fyraltari]

Oh. Okay, then.

[Larre Gannd]

When Vaarsuvius lost the bear's endurance spell, she also lost the hit points it granted. Those hit points were not burned off by the first meteor swarm; that spell cost her her own, bona fide hit points.

So it doesn't matter. Vaarsuvius has survived two consecutive meteor swarms on nothing but her own hit points. She likely saved against both, and Xykon likely rolled low, but still.

I think it is possible they were granted cover by an O-Chul, who took the brunt of the swarm

[zimmerwald1915]

I think it is possible they were granted cover by an O-Chul, who took the brunt of the swarm
Cover doesn't work that way. O-Chul took more damage as he was hit by the spheres, but he was neither in the right position nor large enough to spare Vaarsuvius from the area burst. Vaarsuvius was not taking cover anyway, but running.

[Larre Gannd]

Cover doesn't work that way. O-Chul took more damage as he was hit by the spheres, but he was neither in the right position nor large enough to spare Vaarsuvius from the area burst. Vaarsuvius was not taking cover anyway, but running.

So they probably took, like, 8d6 damage. From the image, only one of the meteors was going to hit near V. They all seemed to be touch attacks, and so did not explode in a 40 ft sphere, especially since Xykon was easily within that range.

[Snails]

My Bardic Knowledge roll on the topic of V's character development arc says...
The likely first critical matchup against Xykon before the kill will be V, who will have learned hir lesson and see that hir greatest value is not to eliminate Xykon directly, but protect the party and buy time so they can position themselves for the kill.

Towards that end, s/he will extend hir tactics against Laurin to their logical end, taking a page from the ABD: grapple Xykon with an Antimagic Field centered on hirself.

Xykon will be forced to take care of the annoyance by burning multiple precious epic spell slots. Supreme Dispelling will work, but V can restore a dispelled AMF with a Stilled Spell AMF. This is not a duel that V can possibly win with such delaying tactics, but V is not trying to survive at all.

V's supreme act of magical power will be to temporarily nullify Xykon and die, to create the tactical opening that will allow the Order to win.

[Fyraltari]

My Bardic Knowledge roll on the topic of V's character development arc says...
The likely first critical matchup against Xykon before the kill will be V, who will have learned hir lesson and see that hir greatest value is not to eliminate Xykon directly, but protect the party and buy time so they can position themselves for the kill.

Towards that end, s/he will extend hir tactics against Laurin to their logical end, taking a page from the ABD: grapple Xykon with an Antimagic Field centered on hirself.

Xykon will be forced to take care of the annoyance by burning multiple precious epic spell slots. Supreme Dispelling will work, but V can restore a dispelled AMF with a Stilled Spell AMF. This is not a duel that V can possibly win with such delaying tactics, but V is not trying to survive at all.

V's supreme act of magical power will be to temporarily nullify Xykon and die, to create the tactical opening that will allow the Order to win.
I like that idea!

[Larre Gannd]

My Bardic Knowledge roll on the topic of V's character development arc says...
The likely first critical matchup against Xykon before the kill will be V, who will have learned hir lesson and see that hir greatest value is not to eliminate Xykon directly, but protect the party and buy time so they can position themselves for the kill.

Towards that end, s/he will extend hir tactics against Laurin to their logical end, taking a page from the ABD: grapple Xykon with an Antimagic Field centered on hirself.

Xykon will be forced to take care of the annoyance by burning multiple precious epic spell slots. Supreme Dispelling will work, but V can restore a dispelled AMF with a Stilled Spell AMF. This is not a duel that V can possibly win with such delaying tactics, but V is not trying to survive at all.

V's supreme act of magical power will be to temporarily nullify Xykon and die, to create the tactical opening that will allow the Order to win.
But isn’t Xykon stronger than V?

[RatElemental]

While dramatically appealing, V grappling Xykon presents several mechanical issues, the most pressing of which being that V would have to succeed at a melee touch attack, not get hit by the attack of opportunity it provokes, and then succeed on an opposed grapple roll. Also, Xykon needs to not have some kind of constant freedom of movement item, which you can get for relatively cheap before you get to epic level.

Grapple rolls use your strength bonus and bab, both of which V is very likely very poor in.

There's a reason grappling is considered a viable tactic to neutralize wizards and freedom of movement is a must buy for them: They aren't very good at grappling.

[Larre Gannd]

While dramatically appealing, V grappling Xykon presents several mechanical issues, the most pressing of which being that V would have to succeed at a melee touch attack, not get hit by the attack of opportunity it provokes, and then succeed on an opposed grapple roll. Also, Xykon needs to not have some kind of constant freedom of movement item, which you can get for relatively cheap before you get to epic level.

Grapple rolls use your strength bonus and bab, both of which V is very likely very poor in.

There's a reason grappling is considered a viable tactic to neutralize wizards and freedom of movement is a must buy for them: They aren't very good at grappling.

And Xykon got boots of Freedom of Movement recently

[Fyraltari]

Couldn't V achieve the same effect just by staying near Xykon? With Roy hitting him with his sword to immobilize him?

[zimmerwald1915]

Couldn't V achieve the same effect just by staying near Xykon? With Roy hitting him with his sword to immobilize him?
Not really. AMF has, IIRC, a 10-foot radius.

I still prefer the theory that Vaarsuvius will inadvertently catch the Crimson Mantle in the area of a disjunction, lose all her magic, but secure the world against future attempts on the Rifts.

[Fyraltari]

Not really. AMF has, IIRC, a 10-foot radius.
3.05 meters, that could work.

I still prefer the theory that Vaarsuvius will inadvertently catch the Crimson Mantle in the area of a disjunction, lose all her magic, but secure the world against future attempts on the Rifts.

Sounds goos as well.

[Snails]

While dramatically appealing, V grappling Xykon presents several mechanical issues, the most pressing of which being that V would have to succeed at a melee touch attack, not get hit by the attack of opportunity it provokes, and then succeed on an opposed grapple roll. Also, Xykon needs to not have some kind of constant freedom of movement item, which you can get for relatively cheap before you get to epic level.

Yes and no.

Mechanically speaking, yes, all you say is correct under the assumption that we follow D&D rules extremely literally. . But the intention of "I keep him within 10 feet of me by following, and I am willing to take a few hits to keep the correct relative position" is something that clearly can work in a universe that is not restricted to pure I-go-you-go turn mechanics. When there is no mobility difference between the two opponents, there is no reason to assume one can easily move a distance away (even if escaping is plausible as a long term result, if several rounds/actions of effort to that end were employed to just that purpose).

Whether this facet of a complex combat is depicted by a silly looking merry chase around the battlefield or two determined combatants with their hands at each others' throats, one definitely losing the conflict, the strategic result is much the same. The choice between the two depictions becomes one of artistic sensibility.

[RatElemental]

Yes and no.

Mechanically speaking, yes, all you say is correct under the assumption that we follow D&D rules extremely literally. . But the intention of "I keep him within 10 feet of me by following, and I am willing to take a few hits to keep the correct relative position" is something that clearly can work in a universe that is not restricted to pure I-go-you-go turn mechanics. When there is no mobility difference between the two opponents, there is no reason to assume one can easily move a distance away (even if escaping is plausible as a long term result, if several rounds/actions of effort to that end were employed to just that purpose).

Whether this facet of a complex combat is depicted by a silly looking merry chase around the battlefield or two determined combatants with their hands at each others' throats, one definitely losing the conflict, the strategic result is much the same. The choice between the two depictions becomes one of artistic sensibility.

If Xykon grapples V that's a different story, and something he might actually do if he felt like just throttling the elf to death, which he could probably manage to do. I think if the order is around he might have just a touch more sense than to stand there in an AMF though.

[understatement]

Roy can't grapple Xykon anymore and do the Dungeon of Dorukan stunt again, right? (because of the boots)

[Kish]

Roy can't do the Dungeon of Dorukan stunt again because they're not in the Dungeon of Dorukan and Rich is not going to have his main villain's defeat be a joke.

[Snails]

If Xykon grapples V that's a different story, and something he might actually do if he felt like just throttling the elf to death, which he could probably manage to do. I think if the order is around he might have just a touch more sense than to stand there in an AMF though.

Irrelevant.

Whether it is a literal grapple is unimportant. Whether he is willing to stand there in an AMF is unimportant. That is the point of my second argument.

Assuming that it is easy to get away, only makes sense if you are wedded to a literal application of D&D rules in a manner that clearly does not apply to the OotSverse.

Can you easily get away from someone who is physically just as fast as you in, say, 18 seconds?

Greater strength and stamina will eventually prevail in a chase-like situation, but not necessarily on the timescale of 3 or 4 rounds.

And while it might be the smart move to simply escape immediately with the greatest haste, Xykon suffers a kind of spellcaster pride that his brand of cleverly applied raw Power will prevail over those wizards who are so fond of thinking themselves smarter than him.

But it is not impossible that Xykon would be provoked into a grapple, because he thinks throttling the elf would be a humiliating death for hir.